S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, jjj said:

There is a LOT of discussion in the reviews about whether Elizabeth killed him or he killed himself -- and I watched that three times.  It is *deliberately* vague about whose hands were pushing the gun toward him versus away from him, and who pulled the trigger.  Same result, but different eyes see different things at that moment.  

Wow, really? I would never have considered that no matter what their hands looked like. He wanted to shoot her. Why would he even need to shoot himself? If he wanted to die too he could have just let her win the fight and then kill himself at his leisure. No reason to struggle for it as if he has to die in that second to keep the weapon from Elizabeth. If he was trying to shoot somebody it seems like it would be her.

 

15 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I had forgotten the exact details. But- Philip did know and understand the General. He understood his motivations, his character. Elizabeth didn’t. To me, there’s an emphasis that this wouldn’t have been such a disaster had Philip been there. 

 

Absolutely. As I followed it at the time they understood each other because the Colonel was reflecting Philip in In Control. Philip did not report the information about Haig having the nuclear football because he knew that the Centre would use this information in a wrong-headed way. It was clearly his duty to report the information, but he convinced Elizabeth to sit on it until he could send the report confirming that there was no coup going on. Not the exact same thing as the Colonel, but it was the same pov. I think Philip would have known that blackmail wouldn't work on the guy--especially after the guy talked about being haunted by that guy's death. So I don't know that he would have left him with that threat before the night meeting.

So yeah, the more I think about it there's even more reason it's interesting. Because not only do you see the loss of Philip in the scene--you can't help but see Elizabeth trying to handle one of Philip's types because the two of them tend to go after different types. But there's also the fact that the new split here would put Philip more on the Colonel's side. He wouldn't really want the weapon either.

Edited April 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

Here is one of the airline carbon copy tickets-- this from 1991 (not mine!).  You needed agents who had "codes" for the airlines and flights.  Even if you ordered and paid by telephone, you still had to go to an agent to get the printed ticket: 

[attica]

Just now, jjj said:

That is my huge quibble with the writers:  they made it sound like there was a "budget" option, but CONSUMERS DID NOT PAY for the travel services, as I noted in an earlier post.  So, they are imposing two mythologies:  that Philip's customer found a cheaper travel agent (no) and that travel agencies were endangered (not for a while yet).  

Maybe not? My read was that Philip was putting the client into trips that weren't budget/cheap, by booking more expensive flights and lodgings without offering a variety of price points.  I mean, if you go to your travel agent and say 'I want to go to Paris in June' and he goes ahead books you on the Concorde and at the Georges V, when you'd prefer to go coach on the red eye and stay at a  B& B on the Left Bank, and you're not very assertive in pushing back against a guy who has booked you for lots of trips over the years and whom you like, going to another agent seems like an easy way out of the awkwardness. It doesn't then matter who's paying the agent; the traveler is paying for the too-expensive trip. Philip repeatedly tells him "you could have talked to me" "you should have come to me", because (rightly) he's not a mind reader if the client, who has previously traveled at a certain level wants to back down the price ladder. Plus, it may be embarrassment, i.e, I used to be able to afford posh vacays, but now I can't. Again, it doesn't matter who is paying the agent for these concerns to matter. 

In other words, this plot point bothered me way less than Regan still having his WH job.

Just now, jjj said:

Even if you ordered and paid by telephone, you still had to go to an agent to get the printed ticket: 

Well,  you could go to the ticket agent at the airport to get it. I remember having to do that more than once in my life -- drive out to the airport just to turn around and go home with my ticket in hand. (Yeah, I don't remember why, but I do remember doing it.)

[shura]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

And we never paid the travel agency-- they got a percentage from the airlines and cruises, etc. So Philip didn't need to cut a "deal" to keep his customer.

Didn't that percentage ultimately come from your own pocket though? The airline needed, say, $1000 to be profitable, they quoted $1100, you paid that to the travel agency, and the airline let the travel agency keep the extra $100. Philip could have shared some of that with his customer.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Not because he didn't think they wouldn't watch him. He knew they would. Arkady was more worried about the KGB watching him and Oleg is the person he knows who a) is onboard to take risks to erase corruption b) is able to go to the US quickly because of his dad's connections and c) isn't in the KGB currently.

Sure, but he still needs to be worried somewhat about the FBI watching Oleg and discovering Philip, simply because, if that happens, then the whole idea of sending Oleg on this mission becomes pointless. It's almost a paradox. I guess we are to think that they have some safeguards against that.

[jjj]

8 minutes ago, attica said:

Well,  you could go to the ticket agent at the airport to get it. I remember having to do that more than once in my life -- drive out to the airport just to turn around and go home with my ticket in hand. (Yeah, I don't remember why, but I do remember doing it.)

Oh, yes, but my point was, that someone had to print out the ticket.  And generally, there was a travel agent nearby who was more convenient that driving to an airport to get a ticket printed out!  (I also lived in a city with airline offices, who also would print out tickets; but travel agents were everywhere.)

I understand they are setting up Philip as failing or disappointed in the travel business.  But the writing about that could be better.  It's not the industry, it's Philip!  

I wonder if they chose to be travel agents because it was easier to remember to say "Agent" when asked what they do for a living?  :)

[Chaos Theory]

You’re probably right about travel agencies.  Hell I have family who own one and do good business.  I got to thinking how Philip even with all his love of cowboy boots would see Americans.  I thought back to Martha and her “lazy day” and how that concept was lost on Philip and how maybe he thought that focusing soly on the travel agency would mean more “lazy days” for him.  Not realizing that running a business might actually be just as hard as running an asset.  Especially when your business is customer service.

[SusanSunflower]

Philip hasn't been "neglecting" the business ... he's been avidly growing it ... and forgot about longstanding (reliable) clients as he pursued expansion and new business .... no semi-retirement or excessive lazy days. 

eta:  Reminded of business owners who claim their systems are so foolproof, "the company practically runs itself" and/or the office manager is so amazing .. 6 months before discovering massive embezzlement or that the manager has stolen all the clients, most employees, and opened his/her own business in competition a block away. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[becauseIsaidso]

I can't help but remember when P&E were first told about the Center's plans for the 2nd generation - and how they wanted Paige. The way it was broached with P&E made me think they were intended to do the initial bits - tell Paige who and what they were, what they do and why and perhaps do some form of initial training/indoctrination before revealing any other people/parts of the organization to Paige. I never would have expected either of them to be the person responsible for her ENTIRE training! That's just stupid. Especially for people who were selected, trained, matched up and sent out on assignment as P&E were.  I don't much care for Paige, but neither do I hate her. I just think she's a silly, superficial little girl who hasn't yet found the thing she could REALLY care about, and therefore has no idea what it's like to  want something with every fiber of her being. 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, attica said:

Plus, it may be embarrassment, i.e, I used to be able to afford posh vacays, but now I can't. Again, it doesn't matter who is paying the agent for these concerns to matter. 

Or maybe Stavos was trying to sell him more stuff and the guy felt like he was being pressured and that's why he was asking what Philip thought. We saw Philip encouraging the staff to use their personal stories with the clients and maybe Stavos was trying to do that but was awkward at it. Heh. That also reminds me of the week before when he was being seemingly shoved into the line dancing. I wonder if Stavos is just a bit less happy at the agency with a more engaged Philip because suddenly he's expected to interact with people in ways that aren't quite him. Henry did remind us here (not that we needed it) that the guy's an immigrant. Maybe he feels less comfortable trying to chat people up that way. Philip is probably far better at selling people on slightly more expensive vacations while never making them feel pressured.

That would fit even better if Stavos is doing something like described above. Because it means you can't expect any agent to have your special skills. In the past that was one of the ways Gabriel always manipulated Philip. There were two buttons to push: that people needed him and that they needed *him* specifically because he was the best. (With Elizabeth he leaned on her making her mother and country proud and being loyal and ready to sacrifice.)

4 minutes ago, shura said:

Sure, but he still needs to be worried somewhat about the FBI watching Oleg and discovering Philip, simply because, if that happens, then the whole idea of sending Oleg on this mission becomes pointless. It's almost a paradox. I guess we are to think that they have some safeguards against that.

Definitely it's something they're worried about. That's why Oleg said he spent 9 hours making sure he wasn't being tailed. I think he's supposed to be terrified and isolated there. Philip ought to be just as terrified since Oleg laid out to him that he's there completely on his own and obviously might be tailed.

3 minutes ago, jjj said:

I understand they are setting up Philip as failing or disappointed in the travel business.  But the writing about that could be better.  It's not the industry, it's Philip!  

 

I don't think they're setting up him failing at it at all. If he was failing, why would the place be doing so well? It seems to me it's just a vacation for him and now he's realizing that by being on vacation he's ignoring his real responsibilities. Of course the travel agency is going to bring its own problems etc., but I thought the importance of this one was that Philip is the type of person who genuinely cares about even just a long-time client. When the guy was unhappy and left it was telling him that it matters that he, Philip, is not doing this stuff. He can't just assume there's other people to do it. If he lost a long-term client this way who was just booking vacations who knows what's happening in the spy world?

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Since I don't like Paige, I keep hoping that she does continue to run into danger.  If she does end up dead, I would like to see how both Philip and Elizabeth cope with it.

 

I was surprised that fragments of the General's skull didn't become embedded in Elizabeth's face.

Someone deserves a makeup Emmy for that blood spatter.

[Sunshinegal]

I think that when they ask Paige to do a honeypot it would be after she is in too deep to get out of it. 

[becauseIsaidso]

3 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Is it me or does Keri Russell not know how to hold a cigarette. It always seems a little off.  I've never smoked but both my parents did and I never saw my mother hold a cigarette like she does. 

I've been wondering if she's trying to give herself cancer. 

Reminds me of what people used to tell me about how I held my cigs (back in the day when I was young and stupid and immortal - 25+ years ago quit and although I never want to smoke again, I still miss (not crave) my dear Benson & Hedges Menthol Lights - yum.  Anyhow, I always held my smoke with my non-dom hand, which is apparently a rather odd thing to do, or so I was told. Never made much sense to me....but then, neither did smoking.

[crashdown]

Just stepping back from the episode a little to look at big-picture themes, I think that the black/white/grey stuff that was laced throughout the episode was pretty fascinating and key. Obviously, Elizabeth's speech to Paige about how the world can be grey was meant to be a sort of dramatic irony: the audience knows that Elizabeth is by far the most black-and-white character on the show, but Elizabeth herself doesn't seem to realize that. The dying woman asks Elizabeth (who is deeply uncomfortable with looking at herself and the world as art in any way) to "just draw the black parts"--that's pretty much what Elizabeth has been doing ever since she became a spy. And in the last scene--this may be a stretch, but I could include it in a literary analysis if I chose to do so--Elizabeth was literally covered with GREY MATTER. I think this whole final season will be in some sense about Elizabeth's truly coming to accept grey as a possibility, and I'm very interested to see where that's going to lead.

[LouisP.]

I find it hard to believe how easily Phillip transitioned into a "normal" life. Now, it seems, Elizabeth loathes what he has become.  In prior episodes, Stan saw drawings of the suspected spies. I'm surprised he didn't think they looked a little like his neighbors.

[EtheltoTillie]

I haven't seen this pointed out yet:  Stan seems to be married, without its being spoken aloud.  He is wearing a wedding ring.  My friend pointed it out to me this morning.  I hadn't noticed last night.  Of course, we STILL don't know what Renee is doing in this show!

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

Stan seems to be married, without its being spoken aloud.  He is wearing a wedding ring.

Excellent!  That explains by Renee the Gorgeous is still in the picture with Stan the Stuck ... because at some point, I guess she signed up for the whole better/worse package ... 

[jjj]

10 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I haven't seen this pointed out yet:  Stan seems to be married, without its being spoken aloud.  He is wearing a wedding ring.  My friend pointed it out to me this morning.  I hadn't noticed last night.  Of course, we STILL don't know what Renee is doing in this show!

Someone said in last week's thread that they were married -- but I was not so sure.  If Stan is wearing a wedding ring, that seems to seal it.  I could even see a divorced man continuing to wear his ring for several sad reasons, but new live-in girlfriends don't have time to listen to the reasons their partner is wearing his old wedding ring!  Thanks for pointing out the ring! 

[sistermagpie]

Wow, that's a big deal that Stan is re-married. Obviously he might as well have been given the re-decoration of his house but the main thing it makes me think is that if he had an official wedding of some kind Philip might have been his best man. (Or even if he had a small wedding with witnesses Philip might have been one.) He might have gone with Matthew instead, but imagine if he spends the rest of his life looking at that Russian spy in all his wedding photos. 

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow, that's a big deal that Stan is re-married. Obviously he might as well have been given the re-decoration of his house but the main thing it makes me think is that if he had an official wedding of some kind Philip might have been his best man. (Or even if he had a small wedding with witnesses Philip might have been one.) He might have gone with Matthew instead, but imagine if he spends the rest of his life looking at that Russian spy in all his wedding photos. 

Now I am remembering that Philip's "sister" and "mother" (Elizabeth and Claudia) spent a lot of time avoiding the picture-taking at Philip & Martha's "wedding".  (Am I remembering right?)  What a shame to have a life where everything is in airquotes!  My "husband".  My "marriage".  My "future".  Poor Martha.  

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, kikaha said:

 

With the general out of the picture, the Soviets are going to have to find another source for the technology now.  I wonder if this was the turning point in the Cold War, where the USSR had to expend ruinous amounts of resources on military/weapons it so desperately needed. 

Oh, they are well into going broke to combat "Star Wars."  It's been years now, that's probably WHY the USSR is negotiating at all.  They are broke, and can't keep up, it's already bankrupted them.  What's more, they have issues with borrowing money from the World Bank, since when the Bolsheviks took over (I am fairly sure) one of the first things they did was say they wouldn't pay back the money the Czar owed the bank.  USSR/Russia blew their credit rating.

6 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm sure that there is a point but they need to get to it quickly. My guess is that something goes awry (badly) with those assets and Stan is dragged back in because they were his assets. 

 

 

Yeah, it draws Stan back into counter intelligence which is huge, but it also seems like a time bomb for the FBI and the KGB.  SO many possibilities there, and I actually enjoy both actors and this believable story.

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If Philip is put in the position of spying on his wife, he is bound to find out how much of an incompetent boob Paige is when it comes to the spy stuff.   He will also find out that Elizabeth has been lying to him about Paige, as well.

I hope so.  That would be great actually, on several levels of the Jenning's lives.

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Why did they seem to make P so intrigued with his bank receipt?  He was looking at it at the ATM before he saw old customer and then returned back to it. Then, he seems forlorned sitting in his office.  Is the business in financial straits? 

 

I honestly felt like he expected the bank balance to be MUCH larger.  I got the impression that all of his hard work and expansion has resulted in a losing money situation.  Of course the KGB could always throw some cash and fake bookings their way to keep the cover going.  Still, Philip failing at his job now?  Pretty big, and it also shows the problems of Capitalism for Philip.  He knows the USSR situation isn't great for the average guy, but Capitalism has it's issues as well.

No easy answers for Philip.

6 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I stated that Paige lacks experience. And whether or not she is stupid is subjective and I will side-step that debate. Of course, a newby spy is going to make mistakes. We saw that brief discussion between P&E about Paige getting the Navy officer's name wrong. 

A successful spy program - one that doesn't get their agents killed or jailed - should have rigorous training and evaluation procedures. Right now, Paige's spy activities *may* need to get scaled back to only the basics. It seems that there are highly sensitive missions going on right now and perhaps Paige should not be part of them. For me, Paige's missteps and/or successes are a reflection of Elizabeth's judgement. Paige as a super-spy in training does not interest me. Elizabeth's failures to adequately assess whether her daughter is well-suited for this "profession" at this point in time is much more compelling.

Simply because I am critical of the "Paige as spy" story line does not mean that I want her to die. The fate of all these characters has to be organic and consistent with what we have seen for six seasons. If she does die, then I assume it will be because it has a profound impact on the end game (and not as fan service to haters). 

Paige is AT the basics though.

Maintain your cover.  I am not your mother.  How to do simple surveillance.  Being aware of your surroundings.  Observation of details, like a name badge. 

Honestly, you don't get much more basic than that.

But I agree with the rest of your post!

5 hours ago, attica said:

I super liked that the avuncular State Guide Guy was paying enough attention to notice which of his group had gone AWOL. Nice touch, show.

Also: All of E's disguises this week wore glasses. That seems to me to be bad? Shouldn't she be mixing it up more? Or is it because glasses make a (woman's) face forgettable?

The eyes are the window of the soul, anything covering eyes is  good.  All of her glasses are quite different.  She may be using contacts in as well, but they don't read well on this show, they should really do some close ups when she's wearing brown contacts.

She did have that teeth implant thing that gave her an overbite too, that was good.  It's odd that they don't place more obvious moles on her at times, that, and fake scars were used, since people tend to remember them, and it can distract their attention from other features.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[Inquisitionist]

16 hours ago, Erin9 said:

It was interesting- Elizabeth told Philip Paige got a name wrong, but she left out so much more.

I literally said to my husband "She got a name wrong... so I had to kill him."

6 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's a little less implausible than that. She started by throwing her purse at him, and only launched at him once it knocked him off guard.

Thanks for that clarification.  I rewound twice and still couldn't figure out how that sequence started.

3 hours ago, jjj said:

It was him who killed someone (in season 2, to avoid being exposed, IIRC), so that was a nice use of passive voice to avoid taking blame.  "Mistakes were made".  

Ah, was he the one who killed Tim Hopper's character in Ep. 2-1 (the guy who had a drug problem)?

[becauseIsaidso]

Wow!!! There are some SERIOUS P&E, and EVERYTHING AMERICANS scholars here! I am totally impressed....and more than a little embarrassed that I don't recognize quite a few of the references to earlier seasons. I thought I had done a good job of in-depth review and had some pretty good P&E chops.....but, apparently, not so much!  Here I go, off to NYC for a carefree weekend of Broadway and restaurant yummies, but I PROMISE that once back here in the boonies of Maine, I SWEAR I will watch all the seasons again and, hopefully, have a more informed opinion to expound upon.  And, need I mention, that I have spend the last 1.5+ hours watching my ABSOLUTE fave Bette Davis chick-flick cum tear-jerker, Dark Victory?  They just don't make them like that any more....same for this show.

[crashdown]

2 minutes ago, becauseIsaidso said:

And, need I mention, that I have spend the last 1.5+ hours watching my ABSOLUTE fave Bette Davis chick-flick cum tear-jerker, Dark Victory?  They just don't make them like that any more.

All I remember about Dark Victory is that they act like Bette Davis is dying of amblyopia, which just means that one eye works better than the other. I'm glad we have better researchers these days!

[jjj]

8 minutes ago, becauseIsaidso said:

Wow!!! There are some SERIOUS P&E, and EVERYTHING AMERICANS scholars here! I am totally impressed....and more than a little embarrassed that I don't recognize quite a few of the references to earlier seasons. I thought I had done a good job of in-depth review and had some pretty good P&E chops.....but, apparently, not so much!  Here I go, off to NYC for a carefree weekend of Broadway and restaurant yummies, but I PROMISE that once back here in the boonies of Maine, I SWEAR I will watch all the seasons again and, hopefully, have a more informed opinion to expound upon. 

I definitely rely on the memory of others, because I binged-watched the first four seasons, and they are a blur!  Someday I will watch in a more reasonable way, unless the end of the series makes me reject everything that came before the ending (like ANOTHER series I will never watch again because of the ending!).  

[ByTor]

36 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I honestly felt like he expected them bank balance to be MUCH larger.  I got the impression that all of his hard work and expansion has resulted in a losing money situation. 

Yes, as in a "hmm, maybe quitting wasn't such a great idea after all" way.

Edited April 5, 2018 by ByTor

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, jjj said:

I was going to mention that, also!  Not sure how ancient that would sound -- but well into the 1990s I was getting the carbon copy tickets!

And we never paid the travel agency-- they got a percentage from the airlines and cruises, etc. So Philip didn't need to cut a "deal" to keep his customer.  

Yeah, as someone else mentioned since I quoted this, Philip could give really good customers a cut of what the airlines/hotels/car rentals give him.  Also the newer "budget" travel agencies had their appeal, especially for people who had traveled a lot and didn't need advice, or for people who were trying to save money.

I miss travel agencies sometimes.

4 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

 

And thestuff about being cut off from other agents was also a lie. Not only does Elizabeth have Norm and Marilyn and all her other recruits, she had Leigh Anne and Emmet, fellow spies with whom she hung out socially. 

I like how this episode addressed that Paige will work for the CIA or something and have a safer spy path than Elizabeth does. But she probably still needs to understand field work, to be deeply devoted, to know what they do. And while she wouldn't be murdering people if she had a job like Stan does, she would definitely need to honeytrap. 

Liz hadn't seen Leigh Anne and Emmet in years.  They only met for specific jobs, and perhaps "hung out" a bit before or after those jobs.  The only actually almost-friend Liz had was Young Hee.  Liz isn't a people person.

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Excellent point.  Paige should be spending more of her time at her college (where does she even go anyway?) cultivating potentially valuable contacts and taking advantage of opportunities.  Wasting hours on surveillance is not going to help her.  She should be looking for interning opportunities that will one day lead her to a job at the State Department or the CIA.

I am SO taking this to the Paige thread, all of it, not just your comments, but people saying Paige wouldn't have to do honey traps, or use sex, or ever kill someone, or not understand maintaining cover, lookouts, awareness,  or know how to do surveillance, just because she got a well placed job.  Yeah, nope, she probably will use all of those skills if she ever actually becomes a KGB or GRU spy.  I'll go into scenarios about that in her thread.

Because a spy is a spy, no matter where you are for cover.  Shit happens.

2 hours ago, mwell345 said:

Granted, I may have missed this, because I missed a couple of episodes last season, and I realize there is a time jump - but has the show ever made it clear WHY Paige is now a Spy In Training?  Is it that she thinks it's exciting and glamorous?  Did her mother recruit her and talk her into it ( I do remember talk about a next generation of spies at one point)?  Does she truly believe in the Russian cause? I find it hard to believe that an American teenager would decide she wants to be a Russian spy when she grows up (even given the fact that her parents are spies).

It just seems too contrived to me and I am wondering if there was ever any explanation given. 

Not really, barely touched it, didn't show any self questions about loyalty to her own country either.  3 year time jump and a mostly wasted season last year.

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

I think that when they ask Paige to do a honeypot it would be after she is in too deep to get out of it. 

Again, I'm taking it to Paige's thread.  Hope you guys join me there.

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I haven't seen this pointed out yet:  Stan seems to be married, without its being spoken aloud.  He is wearing a wedding ring.  My friend pointed it out to me this morning.  I hadn't noticed last night.  Of course, we STILL don't know what Renee is doing in this show!

I didn't catch it, but I did mention it in the media thread.  Sepinwall said it in his review. 

Glad someone here caught the ring.

Wow.  No way is Renee an American spy.  Imagine the CIA or FBI telling one of their (few at that time) female  agents she had to marry someone on US soil.  I could see a "marriage" in some other country being advantageous and possible, but it's still hard to imagine.

[Dev F]

31 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Thanks for that clarification.  I rewound twice and still couldn't figure out how that sequence started.

I happened to catch the flying purse on first viewing, and I only rewatched it quickly on the way out the door this morning to confirm my initial impressions. But I think it's one of those situations where the writers are including a pretty sophisticated bit of tradecraft that looks like gibberish until you really break it down.

The one thing I noticed on rewatching is that Elizabeth carefully unshoulders her purse as she kneels down, which suggests that she's already planning to chuck it at him. So while it looks like Elizabeth is panicking and grasping at straws to save her own life, she's actually pursuing a single, deliberate course of action. That makes me wonder how much of the rest of it is part of the larger plan. Is she kneeling down just so she looks more compliant, or so she's better positioned to knock the general off his feet when she dives at him?

[jjj]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Wow.  No way is Renee an American spy.  Imagine the CIA or FBI telling one of their (few at that time) female  agents she had to marry someone on US soil.  I could see a "marriage" in some other country being advantageous and possible, but it's still hard to imagine.

If Renee does not do the rip-off-the-face-mask and turn out the be the big reveal to us, I will be *very* disappointed.  But in the "You disappointed me, but I still love you, show" kind of way.  

2 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The one thing I noticed on rewatching is that Elizabeth carefully unshoulders her purse as she kneels down, which suggests that she's already planning to chuck it at him. So while it looks like Elizabeth is panicking and grasping at straws to save her own life, she's actually pursuing a single, deliberate course of action. That makes me wonder how much of the rest of it is part of the larger plan. Is she kneeling down just so she looks more compliant, or so she's better positioned to knock the general off his feet when she dives at him?

Good catch!  My theory is:  she kneeled to distract him from the fact that she was getting her purse ready to use -- if she had just shifted it while standing, he would immediately have shot her.  Instead, he was focused on the kneeling.  Nice move. (for her)

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

HOW is the possibility of Reagan being senile such a shock to KGB agents?

Honestly, didn't most of us non-spies figure that out LONG before the end of 1987?

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, attica said:

Well,  you could go to the ticket agent at the airport to get it. I remember having to do that more than once in my life -- drive out to the airport just to turn around and go home with my ticket in hand. (Yeah, I don't remember why, but I do remember doing it.)

 

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Oh, yes, but my point was, that someone had to print out the ticket.  And generally, there was a travel agent nearby who was more convenient that driving to an airport to get a ticket printed out!  (I also lived in a city with airline offices, who also would print out tickets; but travel agents were everywhere.)

I understand they are setting up Philip as failing or disappointed in the travel business.  But the writing about that could be better.  It's not the industry, it's Philip!  

I wonder if they chose to be travel agents because it was easier to remember to say "Agent" when asked what they do for a living?  :)

I still remember the location of the USAir ticket office in downtown DC, and how odd it was when those offices just disappeared. I also remember what a big deal it was when you could go to the airport and print out your own boarding pass at the gate. That was also when you could just stroll through Security and walk up to the gate about 15 minutes before takeoff and casually take your seat on the plane. Ah, I miss that.

Edited April 5, 2018 by RedHawk

[CaliCheeseSucks]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Agreed.  I found all the missions from last season to be boring so a return to this one with Stan's Russian contact doesn't excite me.  They need to wrap it up quickly or at least make it more interesting than a relationship squabble. 

While I've thought the pace of this season is an immediate upgrade from last season - which I found borderline insufferable - it certainly gave me to pause about the episode order for each. Season five dragged to fill thirteen episodes with missions and characters that felt far too much like time-killing filler to get to the final season and some real narrative payoffs. Already it feels like season six is at a loss for proper storytelling time to reveal those payoffs. I suspect however satisfying things continue to roll out, that season five will be the one, in retrospect, that should have been abbreviated and season six the one that needed the three extra hours. 

[jjj]

6 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

While I've thought the pace of this season is an immediate upgrade from last season - which I found borderline insufferable - it certainly gave me to pause about the episode order for each. Season five dragged to fill thirteen episodes with missions and characters that felt far too much like time-killing filler to get to the final season and some real narrative payoffs. Already it feels like season six is at a loss for proper storytelling time to reveal those payoffs. I suspect however satisfying things continue to roll out, that season five will be the one, in retrospect, that should have been abbreviated and season six the one that needed the three extra hours. 

I held out hope too long last year that it would turn into something that resembled the other seasons; but after a certain point I had to admit, and said in this forum, that the producers had *clearly* conceived and were excited about the final season leading to the finale/resolution; but got talked into a two-year contract to get there, so we got the listless Season 5.

That's why I laughed at a few of the initial posts in this thread, that said "I dunno, this seemed kind of slow compared to last week," and I wanted to respond:  "Remember the Wheat."  That was last season, watching Wheat grow.  (It does grow fast; I grew up next to a wheat field. But I would not set aside an hour each week to watch it.)  

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[RedHawk]

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Fun Fact:  In 1987, Aldrich Ames (already a 25+ year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency), had already been spying for the KGB for 2 years (arrested in 1994) 

Additional fun facts: Ames would make a chalk mark on a specific USPS mailbox to let his Russian handlers know he wanted a meeting, just like Oleg did when he wanted to meet with Phillip. According to Wikipedia the box Ames used was at 37th and R Streets NW, a residential area not far from the Soviet Embassy on Wisconsin Ave, and thus also not far from the Naval Observatory. 

[CaliCheeseSucks]

1 minute ago, jjj said:

That's why I laughed at a few of the initial posts in this thread, that said "I dunno, this seemed kind of slow compared to last week," and I wanted to respond:  "Remember the Wheat."  That was last season, watching Wheat grow.  (It does grow fast; I grew up next to a wheat field. But I would not set aside an hour each week to watch it.)  

NOT THE WHEAT! DON'T REMIND ME!!!

*crumples into a ball on the floor, sobbing*

[JFParnell]

LOL! No more wheat!!! I for one hope they spend zero time on crops or other foodstuff-related themes in this last season. So far, good! 

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The one thing I noticed on rewatching is that Elizabeth carefully unshoulders her purse as she kneels down, which suggests that she's already planning to chuck it at him. So while it looks like Elizabeth is panicking and grasping at straws to save her own life, she's actually pursuing a single, deliberate course of action. That makes me wonder how much of the rest of it is part of the larger plan. Is she kneeling down just so she looks more compliant, or so she's better positioned to knock the general off his feet when she dives at him?

Oh, I thought it was immediately clear that the whole thing was an act. She definitely knelt down to both look vulnerable and get herself into position. 

And it was fitting that her tearful scaredy-cat act was saying she was a mother, which was true, but was an act. She was, in her way, dragging her kids into it again. Not in a real physical way, but turning that part of her cover into a way to trick other people. We even know that she's got one of the kids covering her. One who's about to coming running in like a typical teenager who has no business being there. Kind of contradicts her claims about tearfully saying her kids need her when she only really connects to the kid that she's intentionally putting into the same danger she's in herself. It's almost like "Ha ha, sucker. You thought I cared about my kids when I was thinking about that weapon the whole time!"

20 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I suspect however satisfying things continue to roll out, that season five will be the one, in retrospect, that should have been abbreviated and season six the one that needed the three extra hours. 

Yeah, I already feel like it's unfair that we get a shortened season this year when the table setting for it was stretched out for so long. That season might have been better with only ten episodes. I guess they probably mapped it out before hand or something and this is exactly how much they need, but then, that means they did the same last year and thought Elizabeth kind-of maybe liking doing Tai Chi with wheat guy was worth a ton of time while Philip getting an actual backstory (GULAG. No big deal) wasn't worth more than a few quick wordless shots. 

[Umbelina]

I thought they had it all mapped out too, but in that pitiful podcast, the show runners did let it spill that they threw out several ideas, and even scripts, and didn't really get back on track and happy with it until after episode 3.  (!)

[TaurusRose]

17 hours ago, chick binewski said:

The thing that stuck out most for me regarding Paige's non-existent spy skillz: you'd think Elizabeth might have stressed the importance of NOT running up to her yelling "MOM!". Elizabeth's omissions are so glaring it's tough to get invested in the Paige storyline. The only way I think this might be interesting is if Paige gets arrested, not killed. 

I may be in the minority here, but I’m having a hard time understanding why TPTB are investing any time in a Paige storyline when the actress is so totally lacking in every way.  Not only do I dislike Paige beyond the state of loathing, and roll my eyes whenever her pinched face appears, but I’m hoping that she’ll be killed because she is so inept and stupid, and that Elizabeth is shaken from her fanaticism and owns up to her part in dumb offspring ‘s demise.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I thought they had it all mapped out too, but in that pitiful podcast, the show runners did let it spill that they threw out several ideas, and even scripts, and didn't really get back on track and happy with it until after episode 3.  (!)

This may be an unpopular opinion but as someone who felt the S3 finale was one of the best hours of television, ever... I've felt increasingly since then that the showrunners are wildly overpraised for knowing what they are doing. Too much time with the navel-gazing podcast and fan service (SONGS! WIGS! WACKY COVER IDS!) and less time really thinking through how everything was weaving together and where they needed to allocate the narrative weight to getting to the endgame.

[EtheltoTillie]

6 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but as someone who felt the S3 finale was one of the best hours of television, ever... I've felt increasingly since then that the showrunners are wildly overpraised for knowing what they are doing. Too much time with the navel-gazing podcast and fan service (SONGS! WIGS! WACKY COVER IDS!) and less time really thinking through how everything was weaving together and where they needed to allocate the narrative weight to getting to the endgame.

I have to agree with this.  I have accepted the incredible plot points because I am so invested in finding out what happens to P and E and Stan.  They are characters that will stand the test of time.  So I didn't even hate "wheat year," because it was still time to spend with my favorite characters.

[becauseIsaidso]

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

All I remember about Dark Victory is that they act like Bette Davis is dying of amblyopia, which just means that one eye works better than the other. I'm glad we have better researchers these days!

EVER so MUCH more tear-jerky-rich-bad-girl-turned-doc's-wife-who-finally-GETS IT!  Fabulous flick!

[RedHawk]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

I have to agree with this.  I have accepted the incredible plot points because I am so invested in finding out what happens to P and E and Stan.  They are characters that will stand the test of time.  So I didn't even hate "wheat year," because it was still time to spend with my favorite characters.

I agree. I can withstand a lot of "songs! wigs! and wacky cover IDs" and even PAIGE as long as I get enough of what makes this show great. I also don't listen to podcasts and skip over discussion of them. This season I probably won't even read episode reviews so I can just enjoy the show as it unfolds. If the writers intend something different than I'm seeing (Paige is a super-smart spy in training!) then I don't want it to color my enjoyment of the show. 

[becauseIsaidso]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

I definitely rely on the memory of others, because I binged-watched the first four seasons, and they are a blur!  Someday I will watch in a more reasonable way, unless the end of the series makes me reject everything that came before the ending (like ANOTHER series I will never watch again because of the ending!).  

What show!!!!?!?!??!? Inquiring minds have GOT to know! Unless it BTVS, in which case I TOTALLY agree!  Spuffy forever!

[Sarah 103]

20 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Yes, the man in the next stall x-rayed the bag while the partner outside the stall was none the wiser.

Thank you because I was really confused.

20 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I was confused about the bathroom scene, too.

That makes me feel better; I wasn't the only one who didn't get what was going on during the scene. 

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The Paige/Claudia/Elizabeth scene seemed again sad. I'm sure Paige has sat through plenty of a filmstrips about Tchaikovsky already in school. He's kinda famous. (I wondered if Elizabeth saying Paige didn't like classical music was supposed to echo Elizabeth's disinterest in art at all. Cause it's not like Paige seems like she's interested in any other music.)

Apologies if this makes you feel old. Are filmstrips reels of movie film, like what you would play on old projection equipment? As for her familiarity, I would assume it would have been records or cassette tapes in a music/ music appreciation class in high school. 

19 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I would think that was done on purpose. Of course- Philip couldn’t tell Henry he’s really worried about possibly spying on his mom- but he picked a good alternative story that served the same purpose and did bug him. And-Henry still got to the heart of it- that Philip feels like he walked away from his responsibilities- twice. Telling. Very telling. 

Henry's always been better at reading people and assesing the situation than Paige. 

18 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Stan so did not want to play marital counselor to Gennadi!  .

But at least Stan gets credit for knowing he is the last person who should be doing this, as opposed to thinking he totally has this covered and knows exactly what to do.

18 hours ago, jjj said:

Henry did have a good imitation accent.  I could hear him imitating Roossian Boris and Natasha chasing after "Moose and Squirr-rrell".  But worried that Philip might "jump out the window" -- and what, get gum on his shoes by exiting at street level window?

It's "Squvirr-rrell" there's a v in there when said with the accent. 

18 hours ago, jjj said:

Must be tough for the real Keri and Matthew to compare notes in the evening -- they are in hardly any scenes, so are having very different work days.  "How was your day"  "SUPER, I spent the day line dancing and had a blast."  "SUPER, I had to have someone's BRAINS on my face for half the day while we shot the scene in the wet leaves."  

Actually, I think that might make it more interesting. Instead of coming home knowing exactly what the other did at work because you were in a whole bunch of scenes together, you get to hear about something different. If one of them is worried about a scene, instead of knowing exactly how it turned out because the other was there, he or she can ask a few days later, "how did that scene you were worried about end up, did you figure out the problem", type of stuff. 

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I swear, I am half convinced the writers skipped ahead a few years just to watch Elizabeth's face watching the Berlin Wall get knocked down while David Hasslehoff rocks out in a jacket covered in Christmas lights. I thinks thats how it went, right? I wasn't actually born yet, thats just what I remember from clips :)   

 

I've seen footage of David Hasslehoff rocking out too, but I don't remember Christmas lights. I'm a few years older than you are, but like you, this something I am aware of from news footage in documentaries, not actual memories. Slightly off-topic, I was in college during the 20th anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall. One of my friends who was a few years ahead of me (my friend did not go right from high school to college, furthering the age difference) said she felt so old, because she could remember the Wall coming down. I had just been discussing the subject of the Wall with my father a few nights before so I told her, "Don't feel old. My father remembers when they built the Berlin Wall."

12 hours ago, paulvdb said:

 After all, the plan for the second generation program was that Paige would be able to get some government job that would give her access to information. So she wouldn't even have to do these missions with Elizabeth.

You are right. This is pure television and does not make sense. 

8 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

 It is also possible that Paige simply isn’t suited to field work regardless of who trains her.  She might be better at being in a Martha type position in working in an office and quietly gathering intel which is what Elizabeth wanted for Paige.  It really doesn’t make sense for Paige to be in the field.  She should instead be building an impeccable record and trying to meet the right people so she can get a well placed job in the government.  Using Paige in the field seems like an uneccessary risk to an asset that would be better used elsewhere.  

 

Yes! This is my problem with the storyline. She should not be in the field for a whole host of reasons, many of which you just listed. The goal is for her to have a job in a government office, so she can meet with someone like Elizabeth or Philip and give them information. There are some skills she would need, like how to avoid detection, how to spot someone following her, but the missions they have her doing do not make sense with the future plans of the Centre. 

7 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

She should probably be getting some formal education/deep indoctrination from the KGB (either directly or through a front) in history, foreign affairs and likely a language (if she not already taking that intensively in college).  Russian might be helpful and believable depending on what she's studying/majoring in college.  Similarly, assuming her college is related to some intended future path (???), she should be socializing and making contacts for her future education (master's/phd/internships).  

 

I totally agree with all of this. 

7 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Given the times, America's fascination with espionage continued to be intense (best-sellers, blockbuster movies), so Paige's book purchases would not be suspect, particularly if it somehow aligned with her studies. 

 

I had a friend in college who had a theory. If you look like you are under the age of 30 and are wearing a college hoodie, you can be in a public place reading anything and no one will give it a second look. You could read Mein Kampf and people would think it's for a class on WWII, the Holocuast, European History, Totalitarianism, or any number of subjects. 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Why would she definitely need to honeytrap? If she had a good job in the CIA she would have access to information herself and not have to be somebody's mistress. Seems like a bad idea to give her the reputation of sleeping with higher-ups, but that's me. Not saying honeytrapping wouldn't ever be an obvious possibility, but there's other ways of getting information.

Yes! This is my question too. The goal for the second generation like Paige is for her to have the job, not sleep with the person who has the job.

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Again, we don't know what she's studying, but she should be developing allies and assets among the faculty who will help her with her public career and the KGB would be excellent guides (advice most college students never get). 

 

And I would add students as well. As an elective, Paige could be taking a literature class, where she meets someone majoring in foriegn relations (some electives bring together people from different majors). That friend could become very useful 20 to 30 years later. As in, "Let's meet for coffee." and then get her talking about work. Instead of crazy spy missions they should be trainng her how to conduct subtle interrogations. How to get people to reveal more information than they intended, how to read between the lines.  

Edited April 5, 2018 by Sarah 103

[mwell345]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Not really, barely touched it, didn't show any self questions about loyalty to her own country either.  3 year time jump and a mostly wasted season last year.

It really was, (a wasted season), wasn't it, which is why I thought I might have missed something.  I sort of tuned out. 

I just think there is so much they could be doing on this show's last season other than Junior Secret Agent (of course there could be some payoff down the road, but I  sort of doubt that.  I've been thinking season after season there was going to be some sort of payoff with Paige, but she just keeps boring the crap out of me.)

[jjj]

14 minutes ago, becauseIsaidso said:

What show!!!!?!?!??!? Inquiring minds have GOT to know! Unless it BTVS, in which case I TOTALLY agree!  Spuffy forever!

Okay, but I'll spoiler-tag this below, because I don't want to ruin a show or finale for anyone else (from a couple of years back, FWIW).  BTVS was not what I would have hoped, but not a deal-breaker for rewatching!  I keep trying to be realistic about my hopes for the ending of "The Americans," and I think each of these episodes, even this "slower" one, are laying the groundwork for a satisfying resolution.  Not happy ending, but a just ending.  Idiot Paige and Ruthless Elizabeth and Flailing Phil all have current traits we saw this week that will become more important, I think.

Spoiler

I *still* and *never* will get over the ending of "How I Met Your Mother," because the ending betrayed so many episodes as well as the freaking title of the show!  I loved it, and now cannot watch a single episode, because the framing premise is flawed in every episode, and because the writers said the ending was their concept from the start -- so it was not a last-minute idea, but the premise for the entire series!)

[Trillian]

3 hours ago, jjj said:

Completely agree about the "end of travel agencies" not anywhere near happening in 1987.  That is my huge quibble with the writers:  they made it sound like there was a "budget" option, but CONSUMERS DID NOT PAY for the travel services, as I noted in an earlier post.  So, they are imposing two mythologies:  that Philip's customer found a cheaper travel agent (no) and that travel agencies were endangered (not for a while yet).  

I don’t think they’re imposing two mythologies, just because I once inadvertently screwed a travel agent (unfortunately, a relative) in a similar fashion to on the show. While the customer doesn’t pay the travel agent, different agents may have different deals with different tour companies - an agent who sent a lot of business to a particular tour company might get a bigger commission and/or extras from the tour company to encourage their sending more clients their way.  An agent could then reduce his/her commission or throw in an upgrade (paid for by the tour company) so the customer is either paying less or getting more for less.  Customer doesn’t care, since it’s a bargain; the new agent gets a reduced or non-existent commission (probably the former) but a new on-going client.  The original agent is left out in the cold.   This was explained to me (quite angrily) by the relative who lost my business (and her commission) when a competing agent offered me the same package for my honeymoon at a reduced cost. Oops. 

2 hours ago, becauseIsaidso said:

Reminds me of what people used to tell me about how I held my cigs (back in the day when I was young and stupid and immortal - 25+ years ago quit and although I never want to smoke again, I still miss (not crave) my dear Benson & Hedges Menthol Lights - yum.  Anyhow, I always held my smoke with my non-dom hand, which is apparently a rather odd thing to do, or so I was told. Never made much sense to me....but then, neither did smoking.

I am embarrassed to admit that I am a very long-term smoker (B&H Menthol Lights as well!) and my first thought upon watching Elizabeth smoke last night was that Kerri Russell is not a smoker.  If nothing else, she didn’t inhale. 

I have a somewhat different take on Elizabeth’s view of Paige than the (excellent - thank you!) recap and many other posters:  when Elizabeth says that she herself was a fast learner, she wasn’t bragging. She’s an exceptional spy who has trained other agents and she KNOWS that Paige is not good at this. As a mother, she is disappointed that her daughter isn’t cut out to follow in her footsteps.  As a KGB agent, she is worried that the agent she is training isn’t cut out for this. I think that’s why she was raising with “Granny” (funny [prescient actually- these writers are brilliant] that Philip first called her that and that she is now acting in that role with Paige) what Claudia should do if she took over training. She can’t tell Claudia that her daughter is a failure because that would imply Elizabeth’s own failure and perhaps result in some awful consequence for Paige, but she is floating the suggestion that Claudia should take over training and re-direct Paige to something that she might be able to handle.  Granny doesn’t take the bait and Elizabeth is all alone with her worries.

Similarly, I think Elizabeth desperately wants to discuss this with someone. Who better than her fellow agent and the co-parent of the hopeless trainee? So, she floats the idea out there to Philip - Paige got a name wrong - but Philip misses the cue. He doesn’t ask how Paige is doing generally as a spy or if that’s the only error. He’s out of the business. He’s worried about other concerns and - beautifully- is trying to be supportive of Elizabeth so he just says it’s a rookie mistake. And Philip and Elizabeth again fail to connect on this issue where his input could have lightened her load and where they could have worked together for some solution. 

I will so so miss this show but am so enjoying the journey. 

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, Trillian said:

Similarly, I think Elizabeth desperately wants to discuss this with someone. Who better than her fellow agent and the co-parent of the hopeless trainee? So, she floats the idea out there to Philip - Paige got a name wrong - but Philip misses the cue. He doesn’t ask how Paige is doing generally as a spy or if that’s the only error. He’s out of the business. He’s worried about other concerns and - beautifully- is trying to be supportive of Elizabeth so he just says it’s a rookie mistake. And Philip and Elizabeth again fail to connect on this issue where his input could have lightened her load and where they could have worked together for some solution. 

I think she wants to talk about a lot of things with *someone*, and really has *no one*.  I thought she was just tossing a bone to Philip to quiet him, and I don't even think "she got a name wrong" was even part of any real incident, just something innocuous she could say to not completely shut out Philip.  Not that she was taking his feelings into account, but that she wanted to be left alone:  "Here, I'll tell  you this, now go away, because you have a crumb."  (a false crumb!)  

[Umbelina]

I completely missed that Mathew Rhys directed this one.  Thanks VOX recappers.  https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/4/4/17195360/the-americans-season-6-episode-2-recap-tchaikovsky

Quote

 

Todd: I was on set for the filming of certain scenes in this episode (notably the conversation between Elizabeth and Claudia about Paige’s future), and it was striking to watch Rhys work. Critics like me, used to parsing a filmed piece via its visuals, sometimes forget how much of direction is guiding the actors toward the performance that will best serve the material. And you might also think that on a show in its sixth season, the actors already know what they will be doing.

But watching Rhys work with Keri Russell and Margo Martindale to find the emotional core of the scene reminded me of how much craft is in every scene on this show. (I should also say that watching Russell go from “Keri Russell as Elizabeth Jennings” during rehearsal to ELIZABETH JENNINGS when the camera was on was a little awe-inspiring, as someone who can’t act his way off a bare stage.)

 

It felt like this was more of a set up episode, hopefully for great stuff that will come, but maybe that's why they had the big death at the end?  Spicing it up a bit from mostly exposition to lead us to world colliding?

Edited April 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[EtheltoTillie]

28 minutes ago, jjj said:

Okay, but I'll spoiler-tag this below, because I don't want to ruin a show or finale for anyone else (from a couple of years back, FWIW).  BTVS was not what I would have hoped, but not a deal-breaker for rewatching!  I keep trying to be realistic about my hopes for the ending of "The Americans," and I think each of these episodes, even this "slower" one, are laying the groundwork for a satisfying resolution.  Not happy ending, but a just ending.  Idiot Paige and Ruthless Elizabeth and Flailing Phil all have current traits we saw this week that will become more important, I think.

  Hide contents

I *still* and *never* will get over the ending of "How I Met Your Mother," because the ending betrayed so many episodes as well as the freaking title of the show!  I loved it, and now cannot watch a single episode, because the framing premise is flawed in every episode, and because the writers said the ending was their concept from the start -- so it was not a last-minute idea, but the premise for the entire series!)

Yes, you are right about that (spoiler tag) show!