S06.E01: Dead Hand

Dev F · April 2, 2018

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The Centre tried to recruit Jared without his parents knowing and it was a disaster. What they learned from that, according to Claudia and according to what we've seen, is that they need to use the parents to influence their children. And that would naturally mean they should act while they're still a big influence.

What tends to be forgotten in these conversations is that Claudia didn't have the last word on how the Centre would proceed with the second-generation illegals program. In response to her explanation about how Paige was next, Philip personally ambushed the rezident and threatened him: "If our organization ever gets anywhere near our daughter without our permission, my wife and I are finished." (It's the event Arkady was referring to in the S6 premiere when he told Oleg he'd once met Philip.) As a result, the KGB realized that they had to proceed more cautiously with the Jennings children; that's presumably why they sent P&E's old friend Gabriel back into service with the message that "the Centre takes very seriously what you said to them about staying away from her."

And since they decided to slow-walk Paige's recruitment to avoid upsetting her parents, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't want to double down on recruiting Henry while Paige's recruitment was still far from complete. And subsequent events -- Gabriel deciding that recruiting Paige was a mistake, Phil burning out and withdrawing from the business altogether -- seem like they would've made the Centre more cautious rather than less.

sistermagpie · April 2, 2018

2 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And since they decided to slow-walk Paige's recruitment to avoid upsetting her parents, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't want to double down on recruiting Henry while Paige's recruitment was still far from complete. And subsequent events -- Gabriel deciding that recruiting Paige was a mistake, Phil burning out and withdrawing from the business altogether -- seem like they would've made the Centre more cautious rather than less.

That does make sense--though otoh, in a way they have more freedom now because Elizabeth's lying to Philip anyway. They might have at least floated the idea to her, but it seems like they've backed off it entirely all this time despite how much Paige has swallowed and despite years going by with Henry getting older and older. It's hard for me to imagine a person who'd decide to move forward after Jared not looking at Paige and saying, "See, that wasn't so bad. Whatever Philip said, it's moving along just fine and he actually helped the whole thing. Plus now we've got the whole family to work on him. And btw, did we mention just how much Kool-Aid this Paige kid drank and how quickly? Double or nothing!" Even with Gabriel, he told *Philip* that bringing Paige in was a mistake but that doesn't mean he told anybody that officially. He didn't even tell Elizabeth.

But, I still think you have a point. For myself when I've tried to fanwank why they've backed off I imagine that whoever it was in Moscow who was really gung-ho about the whole thing has gotten distracted or been pushed aside by people with other priorities. So Henry's slipping through the cracks due to that. That puts Paige in an even sadder position, where she's not even really the first step in the great 2nd gen program, just the one child of an illegal who was so eager to be recruited she would have asked to be on board even if the KGB hadn't thought of it first. (Maybe in her mind this would make her the most special, I guess.)

Mrs peel · April 2, 2018

21 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Henry wants something beyond the life of his parents. He thinks they are boring. He's also into technology so the Soviet equivalent of Q might work well too.

I think they have plans for Henry but they are playing a long game with him and will not approach him until later in life.

I think the Centre knows all about Henry, especially his interest in the FBI and now that's going to this fancy school. They are probably waiting to see where it leads. They don't want to spook him too early and mess up his life. There will be plenty of time for that later.

Henry is going to be a far more desirable target.

I agree and think there's an element of misdirection. While the Centre is putting so much time and energy on Paige and making them think she is the one being groomed, they are also going to go after Henry, but in a totally different way without Philip and Elizabeth knowing. Now that he's at boarding school, there could be a teacher there who's recuiting. I don't think that was there plan for Henry from the start, but based on what has happened, that would be my guess of how they would try to get to him. Maybe the Centre realized that going after the 2nd generation as young teenagers wasn't the best way and decided to wait until they were older.

I guess I've forgotten where we learned the Centre specifically wanted to target both Paige and Henry. I know they want 2d generation, and there are a limited supply of those children/young adults, but presumably the Centre is bright enough to recognize you can't assume every child born and raised in the US to secret Russian spies will be on board with spying for the USSR. Even blackmail can't last a lifetime....as long as Elizabeth continues to work, what could they really do if, having blackmailed Henry to start, he quits the job with access, or deliberately sabotages his chances of promotion? There's also a huge risk he would go directly to Stan at the first hint of blackmail; he might react by being disgusted his parents are working against "his" country.

We've been shown that Henry is a typical American kid, remember in Season 1 when he was so excited about meeting an astronaut who had been to the Moon (and Elizabeth's response defending the USSR program, which was hilarious to me!)? Now he's friends with FBI agent Stan, probably some hero worship there too. And he's made enough friends with $$ that he got himself into an expensive boarding school. I don't see any indication he's dissatisfied with or even questioning American society. As for a teacher at the boarding school recruiting for the USSR, this is USA in the 1980's, not Britain in the 1930's, I doubt there were/are any Russian plants there.

In contrast, Paige has shown dissatisfaction with the US; indeed her work with Pastor Tim (probably considered a "useful idiot" by the Centre) was a positive for them to the degree it showed that dissatisfaction. Yeah, there's the religion thing the USSR wouldn't like, but for a 2d generation operative the veneer of religion could be useful (and Paige hasn't kept up with it anyway). This is the era when the religious right starts gaining power, after all. The show has also previously shown Paige to be the serious student, always doing well, which would allow her entrance to a good college, etc. [Did they mention what college Paige is attending? Clearly in the area, so presumably Georgetown or GW, or could she be back home occasionally from UVA?] Phillip and Elizabeth were surprised when Henry's teacher told them he was gifted, so presumably his grades weren't that great.

I'm sure the Centre would love to have Henry as a spy, as well as Paige, and are watching him. But I question whether they'd act without some sign it would go for the pitch. I suppose the 1987 internal fight might cause the KGB to take more risks, but Henry's far too young to have them act at the moment.

benteen · April 2, 2018

It's amazing that Philip and Elizabeth completely missed the boat on Henry. He would have made a great spy and he's a much better choice than Paige, whom I feel is really not that smart.

sistermagpie · April 2, 2018

26 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

I guess I've forgotten where we learned the Centre specifically wanted to target both Paige and Henry. I know they want 2d generation, and there are a limited supply of those children/young adults, but presumably the Centre is bright enough to recognize you can't assume every child born and raised in the US to secret Russian spies will be on board with spying for the USSR.

Claudia said they wanted to Paige to "be next" after Jared, and there was no indication this was based on the fact that she was already going to political protests with her church so I think it stands to reason they'd work down the line. I mean, it's not a "program" if it's just Paige. Iirc, from what Claudia said they knew that it wouldn't work with every kid, but for "the right kid" it could be great. Paige is that kid because she's so willing, but it seems like success with her would be more reason to move on to Henry, not less. When Claudia ordered them to tell Paige she didn't say anything about what Paige was like, just that they were trying it with the kids of Illegals.

They things you've described definitely are things that make Paige a softer target with Henry--but even there that's more about Paige than her political leanings. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term useful idiot, but it seems like that would be Paige rather than Pastor Tim since Tim didn't actually work for the Soviets. (Okay, he did protect their Illegals, but even there that seemed to be about him caring about Paige personally rather than their politics.) Most kids in Paige's youth group would probably turn her in in a heartbeat if they knew what she was doing.

31 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

The show has also previously shown Paige to be the serious student, always doing well, which would allow her entrance to a good college, etc. [Did they mention what college Paige is attending? Clearly in the area, so presumably Georgetown or GW, or could she be back home occasionally from UVA?] Phillip and Elizabeth were surprised when Henry's teacher told them he was gifted, so presumably his grades weren't that great.

Henry was definitely a slacker student before he suddenly got interested. But there again, the Centre didn't say they were going after Paige because she was a good student, she was just the child of Illegals. And if that had been the case (that they were looking at her grades) they ought to be interested in Henry now, because he's the better student. He also got himself to a private ivy league feeder school where he's already going to be in with the more powerful kids because of St. Edwards.

So that's the thing. If they were just regular kids then Paige being the softer mark would of course make her the target. But the game changer is supposed to be who their parents are. Both kids have things that are attractive to the KGB (Paige is a willing traitor; Henry's already making the right connections and impressing the right people.)

It doesn't seem like they have told us where Paige is at school. She did mentioned George Washington to Pastor Tim at the end of last season as one she was thinking about. (So even then she was looking at DC while Henry was headed for New England.)

26 minutes ago, benteen said:

It's amazing that Philip and Elizabeth completely missed the boat on Henry. He would have made a great spy and he's a much better choice than Paige, whom I feel is really not that smart.

Philip didn't--he didn't want either kid to be a spy. If he ever was seriously asked about Henry's capabilities in that area by the Centre he'd probably happily portray Henry as a complete idiot on purpose!

SusanSunflower · April 2, 2018

There was also a little bit of edge that the Jared pilot project "failed" because of HIS parents and their refusal to cooperate (so the Centre went behind their back); while Philip and Elizabeth would undoubtedly be supportive and so, no conflict. So give Elizabeth another gold star (and we'll ignore Philip's doubts)

Edited April 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Pink-n-Green · April 2, 2018

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 11:08 PM, Clanstarling said:

What JJJ said. There is clearly a split of opinion on this. I'm on the side that it could have created issues. Yeah, he was a creep. But though we are pretty sure he was a nobody in terms of security, in the situation, Paige could not be certain of that. Given that Elizabeth killed the creep and took back her fake id, I'm thinking she, at least, felt there was some risk. Even if she was mostly being a mama bear.

I know this topic is dangerously close to being beaten to death. But... A couple of years ago, I was speeding (just a little bit) on the Naval Academy grounds. I got pulled over and, to be honest, was a little bit pissy with the guy because I thought that the Department of Defense police were basically rent-a-cops and I'd get a talking to and then be on my way. So imagine my surprise when I was given a $125.00 ticket. Yikes. So my point is, if a thirty-something, well-educated woman can be confused about who does and who doesn't have authority on or near federal land, a not-too-bright 21 year old definitely could.

Umbelina · April 2, 2018

She was on a city street in DC. She was unaware of her surroundings, and not keeping a lookout.

As we saw with Hans' training, spy craft 101.

When she realized he was just hitting on her, she had several sensible options. She just froze. After 3 years of intense training by one of the best spies the Soviet Union has produced...

I'm beginning to think, that although the actress, in interviews, is convinced that she's "all that and a cherry on top" as a spy trainee? Maybe the writers really don't. After all, we had Gabe saying "we never should have brought her in" and we have Elizabeth obviously so emotionally involved that she is apparently blinding herself deliberately, AND we had yet another person say in this episode, "maybe she's too young" and express doubts about Paige being included in that night's mission.

Elizabeth was trained and ready to go in what? 5 years? That included intensive training to learn a new language, as well as learning new social norms for the USA, along with all the basic spy stuff which honestly, Paige should have down by now. At least enough to pay attention to her surroundings. Not just on a mission, but all the damn time.

It's something to consider.

TVbitch · April 2, 2018

What exactly was Paige suppose to be doing during her failed spy moment? Something involving the big summit? Cuz if so, that is a hella important gig for a newbie. And why in God's name would she be doing it alone? Why wouldn't Elizabeth or some other senior spy acting as her "mother" or "father" be in the car with her (their battery could be out or something and they are waiting for a friend to come jump start them). The experienced spy certainly would have averted the security guy. The whole thing just seemed foolish.

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

What exactly was Paige suppose to be doing during her failed spy moment? Something involving the big summit? Cuz if so, that is a hella important gig for a newbie. And why in God's name would she be doing it alone? Why wouldn't Elizabeth or some other senior spy acting as her "mother" or "father" be in the car with her (their battery could be out or something and they are waiting for a friend to come jump start them). The experienced spy certainly would have averted the security guy. The whole thing just seemed foolish.

She wasn't doing anything in that moment, actually. She arrived in the area before her shift. When that started she'd be sitting in the diner like we saw her earlier, where she sat at a table by the window and acted as one of maybe a small team of lookouts.

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth was trained and ready to go in what? 5 years? That included intensive training to learn a new language, as well as learning new social norms for the USA, along with all the basic spy stuff which honestly, Paige should have down by now. At least enough to pay attention to her surroundings. Not just on a mission, but all the damn time.

It's kind of hilarious to imagine all the things Philip and Elizabeth learned in that time comparatively. They had to learn to speak a foreign language at absolutely native level with no accent, learn enough about the culture to not only pass as native but pass as multiple identities of natives that will appeal to different people in different places, learn probably a higher level of self-defense and weapons training, learn basic first aid. They also seem to have at some point learned a lot of technical stuff.

Then they were just dropped off in this foreign land completely different from their home and hit the ground running. There were probably millions of little things they encountered once they got here that they had to figure out for themselves--compared to, for instance, Paige just having to pretend she's a student at a different college. (I wonder how much she'd studied up on that college in case she had any questions or whatever.)

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

AND, at just about Paige's age, had to pretend to be married to their KGB partner, and shortly after that, to procreate.

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

AND, at just about Paige's age, had to pretend to be married to their KGB partner, and shortly after that, to procreate.

Oh god, I just realized I forgot about the sex training. They knew they were going to have to procreate but had already been trained as sex workers, including the ability to have sex with anybody. That would have happened before they were Paige's age. She still doesn't even know sex is part of the job for sure.

Dev F · April 3, 2018

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'm beginning to think, that although the actress, in interviews, is convinced that she's "all that and a cherry on top" as a spy trainee? Maybe the writers really don't. After all, we had Gabe saying "we never should have brought her in" and we have Elizabeth obviously so emotionally involved that she is apparently blinding herself deliberately, AND we had yet another person say in this episode, "maybe she's too young" and express doubts about Paige being included in that night's mission.

The writers also made a point of having her completely botch her description of the naval officer who took her ID. She says he has blue eyes and his name is N. Hadley, but to me it looks like he has green or hazel eyes -- and his name tag in fact identifies him as M. Hanley. Even if the eye color is just a matter of lighting or whatever, I can't imagine that after we witness her consciously memorizing the guy's personal details but getting both his last name and his first initial wrong, we're supposed to conclude that she's a naturally gifted spy.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Dev F
Got the correct and incorrect names backward

Bannon · April 3, 2018

Well, if the writers play to the show's strengths in the final season, all the better. Theresa Russell was great, great, great, at giving an illustration of how even the most committed can be burnt out into little more than a thousand yard stare. Unfortunately, Paige has never been written or acted well enough to flesh out the family conflict and emotional toil. I'll just focus on the quality of Russell's work. I hope she gets good opportunities after this run.

The character of Stan has been so botched by now that the less screen time the better.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Bannon

scowl · April 3, 2018

On 3/31/2018 at 6:09 PM, Mrs peel said:

I have to disagree. She has made multiple statements about Americans being weak, pampered, etc., she told the Nicaraguan woman that her country’s revolution was “beautiful,” etc. Any time Phillip said something good about the US, she disagreed. I always remember the scene when they first arrived in America, Phillip was amazed at the air conditioning in the motel room, she was unimpressed.

My die-hard capitalist father also constantly complained that Americans are weak and spoiled. Yes, she doesn't like the U.S. but many people in the world share that view. I have found her defense of what she's doing to be terribly weak and unfocused (what does "beautiful" really mean?). From the first season it has seemed to me that the show is purposely avoiding anything about what P and E really believe in.

Elizabeth has never shown any belief in communist ideology or the beliefs of the Soviet Union. Those beliefs include that the capitalist countries are conspiring to destroy the Soviet Union and all communist countries, that all failures of the communist system have been the result of capitalist countries undermining them, that the entire western world (not just the U.S.) is controlled by corporations who seek to control and exploit the people of the world, and that true peace can only be achieved when the world is unified under a cooperative socialist system.

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

27 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The writers also made a point of having her completely botch her description of the naval officer who took her ID. She says he has blue eyes and his name is N. Hadley, but to me it looks like he has green or hazel eyes -- and his name tag in fact identifies him as M. Hanley. Even if the eye color is just a matter of lighting or whatever, I can't imagine that after we witness her consciously memorizing the guy's personal details but getting both his last name and his first initial wrong, we're supposed to conclude that she's a naturally gifted spy.

Wow, I think someone else had noted that in closed captioning but I just watched it myself too and you're right--it couldn't be more clear that she's got it wrong and it's the clearest ID she can give, the nametag. That means Elizabeth told her that she did everything right when it turned out she couldn't even be trusted to read a name right. (Just for comparison, remember Philip memorizing a phone number just by watching a guy make a call on a payphone nearby.) It seems unlikely that most people would be put on stakeouts before they'd even mastered that sort of thing. Marilyn wouldn't have said that about "Julie" being too young if she hadn't been thinking it a while, it seems to me. And when Elizabeth sees the guy on the street she obviously assumes Paige made that mistake because she knifes the guy anyway and gets the ID.

Whatever that says about Paige (and man, I hope they're not planning a whole arc where Paige becomes a super spy in the 9 weeks before the summit) that would be really dangerous for Elizabeth that she's not only so burnt out but she's covering for a person who can't pull their weight. It would actually be really interesting if Elizabeth was supposed to be pushing Paige too fast and too far because she's got tons of feelings she's projecting onto her and also doesn't have Philip to co-parent with her because she's cut him out.

10 minutes ago, scowl said:

Elizabeth has never shown any belief in communist ideology or the beliefs of the Soviet Union. Those beliefs include that the capitalist countries are conspiring to destroy the Soviet Union and all communist countries, that all failures of the communist system have been the result of capitalist countries undermining them, that the entire western world (not just the U.S.) is controlled by corporations who seek to control and exploit the people of the world, and that true peace can only be achieved when the world is unified under a cooperative socialist system.

But I think that's because that would be boring. Nobody wants to listen to people drone on about Marx and Elizabeth mostly only talks about this stuff on screen with Philip who doesn't need it explained to him. There is the time when she quotes Marx about religion and Philip has that fun little moment of explaining capitalism to the kids when watching Wild Kingdom (I think there's also a scene where he might be reading a socialist book) but for the most part I don't think we're supposed to believe Elizabeth is fascinated by economic theory. But she does believe in that socialist system.

Mrs peel · April 3, 2018

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She wasn't doing anything in that moment, actually. She arrived in the area before her shift. When that started she'd be sitting in the diner like we saw her earlier, where she sat at a table by the window and acted as one of maybe a small team of lookouts.

It's kind of hilarious to imagine all the things Philip and Elizabeth learned in that time comparatively. They had to learn to speak a foreign language at absolutely native level with no accent, learn enough about the culture to not only pass as native but pass as multiple identities of natives that will appeal to different people in different places, learn probably a higher level of self-defense and weapons training, learn basic first aid. They also seem to have at some point learned a lot of technical stuff.

Then they were just dropped off in this foreign land completely different from their home and hit the ground running. There were probably millions of little things they encountered once they got here that they had to figure out for themselves--compared to, for instance, Paige just having to pretend she's a student at a different college. (I wonder how much she'd studied up on that college in case she had any questions or whatever.)

Well, they were in a 24/7/365 program, isolated from others not in the program. Paige is actually in college, living a life. If anything, the show has fudged on how much the parents manage to act like Americans. IIRC, the actual deep cover spies were known to have been born out of the US, they spoke with accents, etc.

20 minutes ago, scowl said:

My die-hard capitalist father also constantly complained that Americans are weak and spoiled. Yes, she doesn't like the U.S. but many people in the world share that view. I have found her defense of what she's doing to be terribly weak and unfocused (what does "beautiful" really mean?). From the first season it has seemed to me that the show is purposely avoiding anything about what P and E really believe in.

Elizabeth has never shown any belief in communist ideology or the beliefs of the Soviet Union. Those beliefs include that the capitalist countries are conspiring to destroy the Soviet Union and all communist countries, that all failures of the communist system have been the result of capitalist countries undermining them, that the entire western world (not just the U.S.) is controlled by corporations who seek to control and exploit the people of the world, and that true peace can only be achieved when the world is unified under a cooperative socialist system.

Well, publically she can’t do it because she’s supposed to be an American. But when they are on missions, she’s totally believed everything she’s been told. The US is doing research on wheat that will kill Soviet crops? Sure, she believed that. I’m blanking on other examples, but they are there.

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

Just now, Mrs peel said:

Well, they were in a 24/7/365 program, isolated from others not in the program. Paige is actually in college, living a life. If anything, the show has fudged on how much the parents manage to act like Americans. IIRC, the actual deep cover spies were known to have been born out of the US, they spoke with accents, etc.

I agree--but still, on the show, Paige's college classes (who knows how much of a life she has outside of spying) would still not be as demanding as the many many things her teenaged parents were learning. Their language classes alone would have probably been far more intense than Paige's entire college curriculum.

But then, probably the bigger difference was that failure wasn't an option for them. They would have been booted out of the program or just given different type assignments if they weren't insanely good, according to the show's rules. I mean, in the same ep where Paige gets a very important name wrong after reading a nametag Philip picks up an emergency signal in retirement because he still automatically checks for it. (No doubt he still watches his surroundings just as closely as well since he's still an Illegal whether or not he's retired. He's still always in danger of being caught.)

Actually, that also makes me think of the parallel to the Philip/Oleg meeting where Philip asks if he's sure he's clean and Oleg says he spent 9 hours on it. I don't know if it's supposed to be a contrast to Paige insisting she "saw everything" and was right where she was supposed to be but maybe she shouldn't have been reading and Elizabeth reassuring her it's "not her fault" and she did everything right but it sort of works as one.

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

The writers also made a point of having her completely botch her description of the naval officer who took her ID. She says he has blue eyes and his name is N. Hadley, but to me it looks like he has green or hazel eyes -- and his name tag in fact identifies him as M. Hanley. Even if the eye color is just a matter of lighting or whatever, I can't imagine that after we witness her consciously memorizing the guy's personal details but getting both his last name and his first initial wrong, we're supposed to conclude that she's a naturally gifted spy.

Very true.

Maybe Holly is a better agent than Paige, and she's currently involved in a misinformation campaign?

Ha. Nah.

Ellaria · April 3, 2018

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

The writers also made a point of having her completely botch her description of the naval officer who took her ID. She says he has blue eyes and his name is N. Hadley, but to me it looks like he has green or hazel eyes -- and his name tag in fact identifies him as M. Hanley. Even if the eye color is just a matter of lighting or whatever, I can't imagine that after we witness her consciously memorizing the guy's personal details but getting both his last name and his first initial wrong, we're supposed to conclude that she's a naturally gifted spy.

Very perceptive. Thanks for pointing this out. I remember that the camera seemed to linger on his name tag but I didn't listen carefully to Paige's identification.

With this in mind, perhaps the show is showing us that Paige isn't well-suited to the spy game. (I believe that @Dev F mentioned this in an earlier post.) It is an interesting set-up: Paige makes a mistake, Marilyn comments to Elizabeth that "Julie" isn't ready, Elizabeth tells Paige that she did OK, and then Elizabeth has to clean-up Paige's mistake.

This then circles back to Elizabeth and her judgement. Is she so eager to have Paige follow in her footsteps that she isn't evaluating her objectively? Is exhaustion and desperation playing a factor?

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It would actually be really interesting if Elizabeth was supposed to be pushing Paige too fast and too far because she's got tons of feelings she's projecting onto her and also doesn't have Philip to co-parent with her because she's cut him out.

I agree that this would be interesting. Elizabeth - the super spy, the true believer - can't see the truth staring her in the face.

Chaos Theory · April 3, 2018

16 hours ago, benteen said:

It's amazing that Philip and Elizabeth completely missed the boat on Henry. He would have made a great spy and he's a much better choice than Paige, whom I feel is really not that smart.

They are both very smart but in different ways. Henry has a better grasp on the burgeoning technology and Well he is a white male in America. Paige isn’t stupid but and honestly I am at utter loss when people think she is. (That is not an opening for Paiges IQ test) I think she just had her personal growth stunted when she asked for the truth about her parents and they actually told it to her and then added...oh yeah and....

Henry on the other hand has been free to find himself unhindered.

What would Paige be if she had been as well?

Edited April 3, 2018 by Chaos Theory

Clanstarling · April 3, 2018

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I agree--but still, on the show, Paige's college classes (who knows how much of a life she has outside of spying) would still not be as demanding as the many many things her teenaged parents were learning. Their language classes alone would have probably been far more intense than Paige's entire college curriculum.

But then, probably the bigger difference was that failure wasn't an option for them. They would have been booted out of the program or just given different type assignments if they weren't insanely good, according to the show's rules. I mean, in the same ep where Paige gets a very important name wrong after reading a nametag Philip picks up an emergency signal in retirement because he still automatically checks for it. (No doubt he still watches his surroundings just as closely as well since he's still an Illegal whether or not he's retired. He's still always in danger of being caught.)

Actually, that also makes me think of the parallel to the Philip/Oleg meeting where Philip asks if he's sure he's clean and Oleg says he spent 9 hours on it. I don't know if it's supposed to be a contrast to Paige insisting she "saw everything" and was right where she was supposed to be but maybe she shouldn't have been reading and Elizabeth reassuring her it's "not her fault" and she did everything right but it sort of works as one.

I think it's more a matter of focus and distraction. P&E had nothing to distract them from what they were learning - no down time at all from what I recall. That makes for a much deeper learning experience. Deep immersion works much better. The Language Institute in Monterey does similar immersion training (w/o, I assume, the sex and physical training).

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

They are both very smart but in different ways. Henry has a better grasp on the burgeoning technology and Well he is a white male in America. Paige isn’t stupid but and honestly I am at utter loss when people think she is. (That is not an opening for Paiges IQ test) I think she just had her personal growth stunted when she asked for the truth about her parents and they actually told it to her and then added...oh yeah and....

Henry on the other hand has been free to find himself unhindered.

What would Paige be if she had been as well?

I think Paige is smart, but she's gullible and doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense. Henry has lots of common sense.

Chaos Theory · April 3, 2018

One of two things happen when your parents are never home. You either rebell or your cling. Paige clung. She never had any friends in large part because she had to be home to take care of Young’s while her parents were “at work”. Of course she could have had friends over but something tells me Elizabeth nixed that idea early on. Philip made a comment early on that Elizabeth never wanted the family to have friends in the neighborhood and I can see that translating into how a young Paige saw the world.

Again I don’t want to get into a debate on how smart Paige is. I think she is actually very smart but she is also so very tied to her mothers world view and not the type to go to the public library to read every book on the subject and then have a three week debate with her mother. That’s just not her personality. She did that once with Gregory when her mom called him a hero but the newspapers called him a cop killer or something like that and she ultimately took her moms word for it without much further investigation. She will do the work but she just won’t do further investigation once she finds an answer that fits her narrative. Which may actually make her a good agent for Elizabeth. In a round about way

JFParnell · April 3, 2018

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

The character of Stan has been so botched by now that the less screen time the better.

Stan really has been all over the map, hasn't he?

What if Renee turns out to be just .... Renee, a woman from the gym who's sweet on Stan and wants him to be the best darn agent he can be? Otherwise ... the writers are asking us to believe that not only has G-Man Stan had the incalculable residential misfortune (or career opportunity, in the hands of a better agent) of living across the street from deep-cover Soviet operatives and becoming best beer-drinking buds with one of them but also of becoming the unwitting target of yet *another* spook, this one in his bed? (Does the FBI not teach agents in his position to be wary?) If the Sovs were just taking another angle at Stan -- whose picture they must have on glorious display at the Center -- why not clue in P&E, so no wires get crossed? After all, Stan's best pal Philip could offer subtle encouragement to Stan in trusting Renee in the new relationship.

And then there's the falling-for-Nina fiasco. These have not been very good to excellent years for poor Stan.

Either they have written Stan as the single most dim-witted fictional FBI agent that has ever fake-lived or Renee's code name is "red herring."

benteen · April 3, 2018

11 minutes ago, JFParnell said:

Stan really has been all over the map, hasn't he?

What if Renee turns out to be just .... Renee, a woman from the gym who's sweet on Stan and wants him to be the best darn agent he can be? Otherwise ... the writers are asking us to believe that not only has G-Man Stan had the incalculable residential misfortune (or career opportunity, in the hands of a better agent) of living across the street from deep-cover Soviet operatives and becoming best beer-drinking buds with one of them but also of becoming the unwitting target of yet *another* spook, this one in his bed? (Does the FBI not teach agents in his position to be wary?) If the Sovs were just taking another angle at Stan -- whose picture they must have on glorious display at the Center -- why not clue in P&E, so no wires get crossed? After all, Stan's best pal Philip could offer subtle encouragement to Stan in trusting Renee in the new relationship.

And then there's the falling-for-Nina fiasco. These have not been very good to excellent years for poor Stan.

Either they have written Stan as the single most dim-witted fictional FBI agent that has ever fake-lived or Renee's code name is "red herring."

Not to mention how loose-lipped Stan is. He told Philip about Gaad's retirement plans, leading to the whole fiasco that got him killed.

SusanSunflower · April 3, 2018

Makes me realize that Stan's been written as if Noah Emmerich were ambivalent about renewing his contract -> the physical character marginalized and the character development stopped seasons ago - so he could be written out. I'd think that Renee -- whether a secret agent or not -- would be dismayed by his doldrums and ambivalence about the future. She's been living with the man for 3 years now and he's been (apparently?) largely treading water. He's awfully young to be "waiting out retirement" and to be telegraphing such lack of career ambition to his coworkers and superiors. Again, have I missed something? (I think much of the speculation about Renee is because we can't really believe that Stan's charms and charisma would be enough to "hold" a woman like Renee ... didn't "hold" his gorgeous ex-wife either ... Maybe he's awesome in bed?

eta: My memory is that Stan had a very hard time adjusting to "normal life" after being deep undercover with the hate group people. Normal life was boring and he wasn't a hero anymore, not a lot of adrenaline. This was partly what set him up emotionally for cheating on his wife and getting involved with (verboten) Nina ... whom he tried to save (white knight) and failed ... I would "color him" with my depressed and mid-life crisis crayons, but he seems really quite happy-enough.

Edited April 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Ellaria · April 3, 2018

9 hours ago, JFParnell said:

Stan really has been all over the map, hasn't he?...

...Either they have written Stan as the single most dim-witted fictional FBI agent that has ever fake-lived or Renee's code name is "red herring."

@JFParnell...that is an accurate - and hilarious - description of Stan's character arc.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

Pink-n-Green · April 3, 2018

1 hour ago, JFParnell said:

the Sovs were just taking another angle at Stan -- whose picture they must have on glorious display at the Center --

Can I just thank you for giving me big laugh on a cold, rainy morning? I'm picturing him right next to Lenin!

Bannon · April 3, 2018

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think it's more a matter of focus and distraction. P&E had nothing to distract them from what they were learning - no down time at all from what I recall. That makes for a much deeper learning experience. Deep immersion works much better. The Language Institute in Monterey does similar immersion training (w/o, I assume, the sex and physical training).

I think Paige is smart, but she's gullible and doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense. Henry has lots of common sense.

If Paige is smart, she is the most incurious smart person I've ever observed. The relationship between Paige and Liz could have been written so much better. Next to the fiasco that has been the writing of Stan, it's been the show's greatest weakness.

Bannon · April 3, 2018

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

Makes me realize that Stan's been written as if Noah Emmerich were ambivalent about renewing his contract -> the physical character marginalized and the character development stopped seasons ago - so he could be written out. I'd think that Renee -- whether a secret agent or not -- would be dismayed by his doldrums and ambivalence about the future. She's been living with the man for 3 years now and he's been (apparently?) largely treading water. He's awfully young to be "waiting out retirement" and to be telegraphing such lack of career ambition to his coworkers and superiors. Again, have I missed something? (I think much of the speculation about Renee is because we can't really believe that Stan's charms and charisma would be enough to "hold" a woman like Renee ... didn't "hold" his gorgeous ex-wife either ... Maybe he's awesome in bed?

eta: My memory is that Stan had a very hard time adjusting to "normal life" after being deep undercover with the hate group people. Normal life was boring and he wasn't a hero anymore, not a lot of adrenaline. This was partly what set him up emotionally for cheating on his wife and getting involved with (verboten) Nina ... whom he tried to save (white knight) and failed ... I would "color him" with my depressed and mid-life crisis crayons, but he seems really quite happy-enough.

Stan has been terribly written from the beginning. A guy sociopathic enough to be an uber-successful deep cover agent himself (and make no mistake, being good at that requires a degree of sociopathy) gets all verklempt about his marriage failing, and all gooey about Nina? Give me a freaking break. The scene a few seasons back, when Stan gets all jokey with Phil about their kids making out, may be the most embarassingly poorly written scene, in a frequently very good t.v. show, I've ever watched. The times when they have had Stan practically sprinting across the street, waving a six pack, eager as a 6 week old puppy to share his life's details with Phil? That's just awful writing, and I can scarcely believe it has occurred in the same show as the beautifully drawn Martha story arc, so brilliantly acted by Allison Wright. The whole thing befuddles me.

Bannon · April 3, 2018

And what the hell has Laurie Holden been doing on this show, through how many episodes now? Is she going to be the deusiest deus ex machina in the history of heavily serialized t.v. drama, suddenly turning into meaningful character with a few episodes to go, so as to be a plot resolution? Or is she going to keep smiling blandly through a few scattered scenes, while the audience wonders "What's up with Stan's girlfriend?". Either way, it ain't good.

I need to stick to my original inclination, and focus on the positive. Theresa Russell and Matthew Rhys are great.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Bannon

SusanSunflower · April 3, 2018

I think they were trying to show Stan as emotionally immature, even walled-off side effect of his undercover time (EST was supposed to help that). Stan quite happy to regularly hang out with Henry for the evening (even if he was apparently largely AWOL with Matthew). His reaction to Paige and Matthew also was as-if he were a teenager himself, amused at Matthew and Paige k.i.s.s.i.n.g, maybe even reliving his own "initiation" to women and sex, apparently without any "parenting bells" going off (condoms anyone?) All quite "stunted" or "immature" ... again, this is why (by my recollection) his first wife left him ...

Ellaria · April 3, 2018

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

And what the hell has Laurie Holden been doing on this show, through how many episodes now? Is she going to be the deusiest deus ex machina in the history of heavily serialized t.v. drama, suddenly turning into meanigful character with a few episodes to go, so as to be a plot resolution? Or is she going to keep smiling blandly through a few scattered scenes, while the audience wonders "What's up with Stan's girlfriend?". Either way, it ain't good.

It is almost laughable. We are about nine hours away from the end of the show and we are still asking the same questions that we asked last year. I'm no longer sure what I want her to be - Stan's true love or a super-duper spy - or what would prove most interesting. My guess is that she will do something "meaningful," mostly because she is played by a recognizable actress. Regardless, I agree that it could have been handled better.

scowl · April 3, 2018

12 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

Well, publically she can’t do it because she’s supposed to be an American. But when they are on missions, she’s totally believed everything she’s been told. The US is doing research on wheat that will kill Soviet crops? Sure, she believed that. I’m blanking on other examples, but they are there.

Her beef is always with the U.S. The Soviets were against all capitalist nations because they felt the entire western world was conspiring to subdue the worldwide socialist revolution and overthrow all communist nations. Even in the last season of the show Elizabeth looks like she's just doing a spy vs. spy job with no communist motivation behind it. It seems like she's forgotten why she's doing these things.

This has been my biggest disappointment with the show because I love reading about what motivates people like her in real life. Instead many of the episodes look like they were reworked scripts from Alias.

scowl · April 3, 2018

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But I think that's because that would be boring. Nobody wants to listen to people drone on about Marx and Elizabeth mostly only talks about this stuff on screen with Philip who doesn't need it explained to him.

So if Elizabeth spent fifteen seconds explaining the goals of the Soviet Union to Paige, you would be bored? I would love to hear Paige's opinion of fighting for a worldwide socialist revolution. I suspect she wouldn't have one.

Bannon · April 3, 2018

17 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think they were trying to show Stan as emotionally immature, even walled-off side effect of his undercover time (EST was supposed to help that). Stan quite happy to regularly hang out with Henry for the evening (even if he was apparently largely AWOL with Matthew). His reaction to Paige and Matthew also was as-if he were a teenager himself, amused at Matthew and Paige k.i.s.s.i.n.g, maybe even reliving his own "initiation" to women and sex, apparently without any "parenting bells" going off (condoms anyone?) All quite "stunted" or "immature" ... again, this is why (by my recollection) his first wife left him ...

The problem with Stan's reaction to Matthew and Paige is that this guy, so good at reading people that he was super successful as a deep cover agent, was utterly oblivious to how a father of a midteen daughter would react to the daughter getting sexual with an older neighbor boy. Jokes aren't in order. Just awful writing. Walled off doesn't have to entail idiocy, and it wouldn't, in the case of of someone with Stan's backstory. The problem isn't the marriage failing; that is predictable. The problem is that Stan was greatly affected by it. A person who separates himself from his spouse for a few years, to work as a deep cover agent, really doesn't want to be married.

Bannon · April 3, 2018

26 minutes ago, scowl said:

So if Elizabeth spent fifteen seconds explaining the goals of the Soviet Union to Paige, you would be bored? I would love to hear Paige's opinion of fighting for a worldwide socialist revolution. I suspect she wouldn't have one.

Gosh, just a scene at some point, with Paige watching a documentary, with footage showing people shot dead as they try to get over the Berlin Wall, and Paige asking "Mom, if communism is superior, why do communist governments have to kill people for trying to leave?" Instead, they've pretty much just written her as largely credulous to whatever her mommy says about politics, which is not a sign of intelligence.

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

1 hour ago, scowl said:

Her beef is always with the U.S. The Soviets were against all capitalist nations because they felt the entire western world was conspiring to subdue the worldwide socialist revolution and overthrow all communist nations.

snip

Well, they DID exactly that. If you look at history, the capitalist nations -- or some would say, the big money bags that are actually in charge of the governments of capitalist nations, and were absolutely terrified that the proletariat (workers/unions) would, by their sheer numbers, end the bourgeois's control of the world. So, they joined together in blockading them, and attacking them, and supplying forces/weapons to the Czar supporters. They would no longer be allowed to make war to increase their profits, because the cannon fodder (proletariat) who vastly outnumbered them would simply say "Nope, not going." Which is EXACTLY what they did in WWI, the Russian people decided that war was bullshit, and they were not going to fight it anymore.

It's goal was to be a complete redistribution of wealth and power to the many instead of the few, and the only way to end war, racism, sexism, and poverty and the rule of a few over the many was for it to spread world wide, so that "peasants" would no longer war against each other because rich people told them to.

One thing the rest of the world managed join forces to do, was blockade the fledgling revolution completely, starving it out, while simultaneously supplying goods, weapons, and soldiers to the Czar's "white" forces.

I think there is a good argument to say that the war against the "empowerment of the masses" continued well past those times.

Would Stalin have succeeded in his murderous dictatorship seizing of power if the world's capitalist leaders had supported that revolution? That's a very tough call, IMO. (much more of course)

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

It is almost laughable. We are about nine hours away from the end of the show and we are still asking the same questions that we asked last year. I'm no longer sure what I want her to be - Stan's true love or a super-duper spy - or what would prove most interesting. My guess is that she will do something "meaningful," mostly because she is played by a recognizable actress. Regardless, I agree that it could have been handled better.

Keep in mind, Renee's been doing who knows what for 3 years now. I'm honestly considering whether or not she's involved with Henry in some way. Or supervising ops, or even there to take Philip out if he becomes a problem. She could also be involved in the Oleg/Stan story, after all, even though last season was mostly a waste? We did see both Oleg and Stan face examination from their respective secret services.

I seriously doubt she's just some perfect blond who loves sports that fell into Stan's life.

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The problem with Stan's reaction to Matthew and Paige is that this guy, so good at reading people that he was super successful as a deep cover agent, was utterly oblivious to how a father of a midteen daughter would react to the daughter getting sexual with an older neighbor boy. Jokes aren't in order. Just awful writing. Walled off doesn't have to entail idiocy, and it wouldn't, in the case of of someone with Stan's backstory. The problem isn't the marriage failing; that is predictable. The problem is that Stan was greatly affected by it. A person who separates himself from his spouse for a few years, to work as a deep cover agent, really doesn't want to be married.

I like Stan. I don't think he's an idiot. I think for the most part he's been a very good agent with normal human failings. His instincts for the most part have been good, sometimes very good. It's also completely believable that to suspect his neighbors of being the murderous Soviet spies, which, by the way, he initially did? Would be a bit "crazy." As his (then) wife said, "What about the mailman? What about the clerk at the grocery store?"

He just came back from a tense deep cover op, all his senses still tuned to suspect everyone. Logically, what are the odds that the couple across the street are super spy enemies? Isn't it much more likely and realistic to assume YOUR (Stan's) radar is a bit haywire, since he's lived in an "on guard!" state for years?

It's hard to put ourselves in Stan's shoes for many reasons, but the failing marriage, the horrifying deep cover experience with murderous racists? All of that threw him a bit. Also, with Nina? He did turn her. She turned back, but for a while there, that was an amazing feat. It wasn't a complete failure. Also, because of Stan, Oleg risked his life to "do the right thing."

I don't know if Stan will get a "win" at the end, but I will never think he was stupid for not realizing the Jennings were the spies.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Umbelina
trying to clarify

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Gosh, just a scene at some point, with Paige watching a documentary, with footage showing people shot dead as they try to get over the Berlin Wall, and Paige asking "Mom, if communism is superior, why do communist governments have to kill people for trying to leave?" Instead, they've pretty much just written her as largely credulous to whatever her mommy says about politics, which is not a sign of intelligence.

Oh, I think Elizabeth could easily convince Paige of the righteousness of the cause, the more research I do, the more I realize how many lies and omissions there were/are to all of us. Both sides. The insanity of war and the ridiculousness of the distribution of wealth alone are excellent arguments. Why are starvation and poverty still around, while a very few people simply have to choose which new yacht or jet they want to buy because they inherited money?

Why is it that a few people can by a pair of shoes that cost as much as a starving family of four's monthly salary? Why are shoes more important than children without food around the world?

The goals were good, the execution was terrible, but even that? Was thwarted by the predecessors of today's uber wealthy. So, what if it hadn't been? Could it have worked? Maybe.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

5 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I agree that this would be interesting. Elizabeth - the super spy, the true believer - can't see the truth staring her in the face.

Also, it mirrors the way she is about the Cause in general in that she always doubles down once she's made a decision and finds it almost impossible to say she was wrong. She can't go to anyone and say she's having second thoughts about Paige. In fixing her mistake she partly might just be covering herself because she doesn't want anyone to know that her great plan has flaws. And we know she's very good at brushing off little mistakes (like the wheat plot or using bio-weapons in Afghanistan) to focus on that far-off ending.

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Henry on the other hand has been free to find himself unhindered.

What would Paige be if she had been as well?

Well, we saw early on that even before she knew the truth she was drawn to being in a structured environment with a leader and a goal etc. Once she got into the church group she dropped everything else happily. (I wonder if it's signifant that Philip scolded her for dropping volleyball mid-season--iow, not thinking about the team.) So I don't think it's *just* that her development was derailed by her parents but that she was derailed by her parents so much because she already had a personality that would grab onto that. For instance, if you compare Henry's relationship with an alternate adult to Paige's, Paige was all about being the pastor's best follower and listened eagerly as Pastor Tim taught her things. Henry was not that way with Stan. He was looking for something very different.

It would have changed Paige dramatically no matter what, but her choosing to replace Pastor Tim with her mother as her source of wisdom fit the pattern of her behavior.

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think it's more a matter of focus and distraction. P&E had nothing to distract them from what they were learning - no down time at all from what I recall. That makes for a much deeper learning experience. Deep immersion works much better. The Language Institute in Monterey does similar immersion training (w/o, I assume, the sex and physical training).

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Paige is also learning far less, though. I mean, we'll never know, but I don't think we've been shown that Paige just has so much going on in her life that she can't pay enough attention to what Elizabeth's teaching her. As Paige herself insisted, she did everything she was supposed to do. She didn't forget to do some specific thing. She didn't miss a lesson.

If there's an attitude issue I think it's less about immersion and more about the level of understanding of the danger and maybe even a misunderstanding about her own role and importance. (Which is possibly further encouraged by Elizabeth's treatment of her.) I actually hope this comes into play dramatically, actually. Elizabeth and Philip grew up in desperate situations and are fighting for the home they love. Paige is unconnected to pretty much everything except her mom and mom's approval at this point. She has no real ties to Russia, she just plays at it in DC. Now she's thrown away her connection to her own country as well. She was thrilled with Pastor Tim's view of the world until she didn't have him anymore. It turned out Jesus wasn't as much of a focus there.

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

One of two things happen when your parents are never home. You either rebell or your cling. Paige clung. She never had any friends in large part because she had to be home to take care of Young’s while her parents were “at work”.

Paige didn't grow up having to be home to take care of the Youngs. She started babysitting only when she was old enough to babysit and even then she was often home by herself rather than babysitting. She has always been the "good daughter" who did chores etc., but she has never been Henry's little mother with all the responsibilities. I really think from what we've been shown her personality has just always been adult/authority-figure focused.

I mean, Paige has always gotten tons of attention from her parents on the show so for me it just doesn't hold up to say this is about neglect. Paige did rebel, after all, by going to the church and her parents noticed immediately and she and her church group and her pastor quickly became central to her parents' lives. Her parents worked long hours, but they were also perfectly present in her life.

20 minutes ago, scowl said:

Her beef is always with the U.S. The Soviets were against all capitalist nations because they felt the entire western world was conspiring to subdue the worldwide socialist revolution and overthrow all communist nations. Even in the last season of the show Elizabeth looks like she's just doing a spy vs. spy job with no communist motivation behind it. It seems like she's forgotten why she's doing these things.

She *is* doing a spy vs. spy job--that is her literal job. Working in the US, which is the leader of the other side. It just seems like that's like saying that Stan doesn't believe in "the American Way" because we just see him being an FBI agent and complaining about the Russians instead of explaining why US-style democracy is superior.

11 minutes ago, scowl said:

So if Elizabeth spent fifteen seconds explaining the goals of the Soviet Union to Paige, you would be bored? I would love to hear Paige's opinion of fighting for a worldwide socialist revolution. I suspect she wouldn't have one.

She explained to Paige that they were fighting for oppressed people all over the world. For her to explain further onscreen would seem unnecessary to me. I assume we're supposed to understand that she's explained more to Paige off-screen over the past few years, but I don't see any reason that I as a viewer would need it. Just as I don't need to hear Stan discussing America's pov with anybody to assume he believes in it generally. Both are motivated not by arguing out the theories but by the deep conviction they were raised with that their side represents freedom and fairness for the world while the other side does not. The logic is, imo, simply a part of them both.

Now, on Paige's side that's really not true, of course. I think her views on a socialist revolution would be something she'd parrot from Elizabeth or Claudia just as she parroted things Pastor Tim said about Jesus. Because Paige has been raised with an entirely different set of values that, imo, she probably actually still has without realizing the difference.

But imo that's not because Elizabeth has lost sight of what she's fighting for. I think what she's lost sight of is the fact that the things she's doing aren't really advancing that idea. That's where Philip's at. The showrunners once said about Philip that the Socialist Cause was "bred into his bones." But he sees what's actually happening in the world as well. He can see the ways his own leaders betray those values and how blindly following them can betray those values as well. Elizabeth believes that it's her duty to ignore feelings like that because they're tricks to make you give up.

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

I agree with that.

I think Philip might still love the idea of a world without war, without weapons, without starvation and poverty, which, at it's heart was Marx's idea. Marx was pretty realistic about what that would take as well. A very long fight and adjustment, and with the possibility of unscrupulous people both derailing it, or rising to some kind of "power" in it that could be misused. Both happened.

However, Philip is the one who really had to deal with the realities of what happened to that lofty dream, being raised in the worst reality that resulted from the subversion(s) of it. Stalin's Gulags. Reconciling that, his experience, to the propaganda on both sides, is probably why he's drawn to EST.

Philip is more of a realist, and frankly, he's been in the "petite bourgeois" for a very long time now. He is looking at the reality but through those eyes, about "what works" and from his life, and what he's heard about the current USSR, from William, and from the Morozov's, and in some ways even from Gabe? The USA is doing it better than the USSR. The bottles have lids that work, the grocery stores are stocked, the electricity always works, etc.

Now if Philip spent some time in deep poverty in the USA or other countries, or fighting in some pointless war? His commitment to communism or socialism might return. IMO of course.

Bannon · April 3, 2018

39 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, they DID exactly that. If you look at history, the capitalist nations -- or some would say, the big money bags that are actually in charge of the governments of capitalist nations, and were absolutely terrified that the proletariat (workers/unions) would, by their sheer numbers, end the bourgeois's control of the world. So, they joined together in blockading them, and attacking them, and supplying forces/weapons to the Czar supporters. They would no longer be allowed to make war to increase their profits, because the cannon fodder (proletariat) who vastly outnumbered them would simply say "Nope, not going." Which is EXACTLY what they did in WWI, the Russian people decided that war was bullshit, and they were not going to fight it anymore.

It's goal was to be a complete redistribution of wealth and power to the many instead of the few, and the only way to end war, racism, sexism, and poverty and the rule of a few over the many was for it to spread world wide, so that "peasants" would no longer war against each other because rich people told them to.

One thing the rest of the world managed join forces to do, was blockade the fledgling revolution completely, starving it out, while simultaneously supplying goods, weapons, and soldiers to the Czar's "white" forces.

I think there is a good argument to say that the war against the "empowerment of the masses" continued well past those times.

Would Stalin have succeeded in his murderous dictatorship seizing of power if the world's capitalist leaders had supported that revolution? That's a very tough call, IMO. (much more of course)

Keep in mind, Renee's been doing who knows what for 3 years now. I'm honestly considering whether or not she's involved with Henry in some way. Or supervising ops, or even there to take Philip out if he becomes a problem. She could also be involved in the Oleg/Stan story, after all, even though last season was mostly a waste? We did see both Oleg and Stan face examination from their respective secret services.

I seriously doubt she's just some perfect blond who loves sports that fell into Stan's life.

I like Stan. I don't think he's an idiot. I think for the most part he's been a very good agent with normal human failings. His instincts for the most part have been good, sometimes very good. It's also completely believable that to suspect his neighbors of being the murderous Soviet spies, which, by the way, he initially did? Would be a bit "crazy." As his (then) wife said, "What about the mailman? What about the clerk at the grocery store?"

He just came back from a tense deep cover op, all his senses still tuned to suspect everyone. Logically, what are the odds that the couple across the street are super spy enemies? Isn't it much more likely and realistic to assume YOUR (Stan's) radar is a bit haywire, since he's lived in an "on guard!" state for years?

It's hard to put ourselves in Stan's shoes for many reasons, but the failing marriage, the horrifying deep cover experience with murderous racists? All of that threw him a bit. Also, with Nina? He did turn her. She turned back, but for a while there, that was an amazing feat. It wasn't a complete failure. Also, because of Stan, Oleg risked his life to "do the right thing."

I don't know if Stan will get a "win" at the end, but I will never think he was stupid for not realizing the Jennings were the spies.

It isn't a matter of "liking" characters. It is a matter of the character being consistent with the backstory. People with Stan's backstory tend to not give a damn about their marriage failing. They take their career path in good measure to get out of their marriages, and they don't get sentimental about a subject like Nina. The only consistent thing about the Stan we've seen in the show came in the 1st episode, when he was suspicious of Phil and Liz.

I'm not going to debate history or politics here. I just wish Paige had been written as less credulous, because extreme credulity is kind of boring.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Bannon

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

The entire show is based on politics. Two systems, both flawed, with our cast warring against each other in support of one side or the other, and in some cases of both. History is a huge part of why Elizabeth and others still believe. History is a huge part of why Philip, raised in a Gulag, and somewhat "seduced" by upper middle class USA life is suffering to reconcile his realities. ALL of that is both background and motivation for everyone on screen. Oleg and his mother's stories as well. Specifically it was brought up about "the whole world being against them" and the reality was, Yes, they were, or at least the people who run the world were.

As for Stan, in most shows, of course, the hero FBI guy would rush in and solve everything and emerge the flawless hero.

One thing I really still do appreciate about The Americans is that "the hero" (whichever one you root for) is flawed, brings real life issues into their actions, makes mistakes, have pasts that damaged them, or enlighten them.

Stan's are particularly believable to me. PTSD from the "might be killed any minute" endless fear and closed off nature of his extended mission, returning home and struggling to relate to his "real life" and wife and son? Still suspecting everyone, and having his wife point out how nuts that was, and gently try to ease him back into the world. Devoid of love for so long. Unable to share a huge part of his life (because it's secret) and then meeting Nina? He turned her, she turned back, but during that time, she was the closest thing to a real relationship he'd had in years.

I just feel like I "get" Stan, and have sympathy and admiration for him. Dismissing him as blind or stupid doesn't work for me.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Umbelina

SusanSunflower · April 3, 2018

Stan's reaction to the divorce rang true-enough to me having seen several married men revert to "acting like they're teenagers" after a divorce, and not just because the "apron strings were cut" but, yes, they never really wanted that conventional life anyway (meet the new mother (your wife), much the same as the your old mother (who raised you) ... this was accepted as practically unquestioned Freudian truth that "real" men "really" wanted to be "free" of wimmin and their rules, and reinforced accepted sexism and misogyny (women, even just a steady girlfriend, cramped your style). I've thought about those "norms" that I grew up with, including the lusting after "jail bait" which was considered so normal as to regularly be the premise for advertising. I have seen nothing about current "norms" (attitudes about marriages, beyond financial concerns and demographics) or the vestiges of these attitudes as they contribute to ongoing sexual harassment as relates to the #metoo explosion

Since then we've had plenty of other advertising nudging us to overspend and live for the weekend and buy stuff "because you deserve a break" or other reward. I noticed this year more suggestion that "everyone" takes a mid winter vacation (spring "break" for all ages), when I'd guess few "new job" holders can afford any vacation and that many vacations are charged (credit card debt is at another all time high, see also auto loans).

Anyway ... this "boys just wanna be boys" ethos was alive and well with people Stan's age and the 1980's were a time of "sexual revolution" particularly for men being free of the expectation of commitment (some peak Playboy ideal). Est and similar groups became vibrant social circles of like minded "freedom seeking" individuals ... lots of dating, lots of sex. I can't speak about the psyche of law enforcement members, but "free to be me" self-actualization was in the air and largely male dominated (because they had the disposable income and marriages could be walked away from)

Edited April 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Dev F · April 3, 2018

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Keep in mind, Renee's been doing who knows what for 3 years now. I'm honestly considering whether or not she's involved with Henry in some way. Or supervising ops, or even there to take Philip out if he becomes a problem. She could also be involved in the Oleg/Stan story, after all, even though last season was mostly a waste? We did see both Oleg and Stan face examination from their respective secret services.

It suddenly occurred to me what Renee is probably there for. At some point, I assume, the FBI will start to pursue the KGB hardliners' Dead Hand plot, and the KGB will need to have some inside track on their thinking. Ordinarily that would be Philip, but for the first time he's not on their side. So maybe their mole will be Stan's girlfriend instead of his best friend.

From a character perspective, that would be in keeping with Philip's anxieties about Renee last season, when he worried that he was being replaced by a different Centre spy who didn't have his same sense of compassion for Stan. I could even see a situation where Renee sells out Stan but Stan thinks Phil has done it -- or even a situation in which Philip has to kill Renee to protect Stan from the hardliners, and Stan finds out about it and is understandably peeved.

Bannon · April 3, 2018

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The entire show is based on politics. Two systems, both flawed, with our cast warring against each other in support of one side or the other, and in some cases of both. History is a huge part of why Elizabeth and others still believe. History is a huge part of why Philip, raised in a Gulag, and somewhat "seduced" by upper middle class USA life is suffering to reconcile his realities. ALL of that is both background and motivation for everyone on screen. Oleg and his mother's stories as well. Specifically it was brought up about "the whole world being against them" and the reality was, Yes, they were, or at least the people who run the world were.

As for Stan, in most shows, of course, the hero FBI guy would rush in and solve everything and emerge the flawless hero.

One thing I really still do appreciate about The Americans is that "the hero" (whichever one you root for) is flawed, brings real life issues into their actions, makes mistakes, have pasts that damaged them, or enlighten them.

Stan's are particularly believable to me. PTSD from the "might be killed any minute" endless fear and closed off nature of his extended mission, returning home and struggling to relate to his "real life" and wife and son? Still suspecting everyone, and having his wife point out how nuts that was, and gently try to ease him back into the world. Devoid of love for so long. Unable to share a huge part of his life (because it's secret) and then meeting Nina? He turned her, she turned back, but during that time, she was the closest thing to a real relationship he'd had in years.

I just feel like I "get" Stan, and have sympathy and admiration for him. Dismissing him as blind or stupid doesn't work for me.

You and I aren't going to agree about Stan. My view is informed by the real life interviews I've seen with people who lived that life, like the guy who was the basis of the movie "Donnie Brasco". Their marriages nearly always fail, and it tends not to be especially traumatic for them. They compartmentalize, making friends with their subjects, but not getting too worked up when their subjects get whacked. If you differ, That's ok..

I agree that politics is the background of the show, but I'm still not going to debate Soviet history here.

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Now if Philip spent some time in deep poverty in the USA or other countries, or fighting in some pointless war? His commitment to communism or socialism might return. IMO of course.

It's interesting to think of it, too, in light of what Oleg brought him. Because the split here is about reformers vs. hardliners. and it seems like Gorbachev is offering something more along the lines of what Philip would want for his country. He's trying to fix shit like the corruption. He sees a lot of Soviet problems as coming from inside the house--or at least those problems being just as important. Part of what Philip seems to have gained from life in the US is that there's no reason for absolute purity. If there's things that work better in this system they should do that. Making everyone suffer more on the promise of an ideal just doesn't make sense. And how can he make a better, fairer world by treating regular people like crap, etc.? Martha is exactly the type of person he's supposed to be fighting for.

2 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Stan's reaction to the divorce rang true-enough to me having seen several married men revert to "acting like they're teenagers" after a divorce, and not just because the "apron strings were cut" but, yes, they never really wanted that conventional life anyway (meet the new mother (your wife), much the same as the your old mother (who raised you) ... this was accepted as practically unquestioned Freudian truth that "real" men "really" wanted to be "free" of wimmin and their rules, and reinforced accepted sexism and misogyny (women, even just a steady girlfriend, cramped your style). I've thought about those "norms" that I grew up with, including the lusting after "jail bait" which was considered so normal as to regularly be the premise for advertising.

I do really buy how lost Stan was after the divorce. I mean, the way he reacted to Sandra wasn't so much like she was the ball and chain stereotypical mom/wife but just that he felt alienated from her no matter how much she tried to help. Then when she left he panicked and suddenly wanted her back, but more as a security blanket than a real partner. Then he was like a kid in search of a family. He chose the Jennings over his own, which ought to come back to bite him.

Which reminds me, I wonder if there's anything to be made from comparing that to Philip and Elizabeth here. Now Elizabeth's the one who doesn't think she can talk about her job and reacts to her partner's concern with something like fear. Back when he was married Stan seemed to think he was hiding more from Sandra than he was. She actually did still know him really well. Just as Elizabeth's state of mind hasn't escaped Philip. Claudia asks if she's been sleeping--Philip sees what a mess she's gotten herself into, but she doesn't want to hear it. Philip's done work on himself to gain some knowledge about where he stands while Elizabeth just keeps trying to define herself by a job that isn't as black and white as she pretends.

I'm not sure where I am on Renee. The possibility that she's a spy has obviously been raised. In this ep she's trying to get info on the hockey player and his wife it seems. But at the same time there just seems something so comical about this much manpower being put on this one FBI agent. I can see why he'd be considered a potential target--he stood up for Oleg, he almost turned for Nina. But he's already got Elizabeth and Philip as his best friends and he's not even in counterintelligence anymore except for that one couple.

Although one thing about that is that if the KGB doesn't yet know about them (what are their names again? Is the guy Gennady?) then that would indicate that Renee isn't working for them. Because she clearly already knows some of the basics there and would have told them.

It could be that she'll be of use as just a clueless girlfriend who's too nosy for her own good, I guess. That could be a very interesting story in itself if they do it well.

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You and I aren't going to agree about Stan. My view is informed by the real life interviews I've seen with people who lived that life, like the guy who was the basis of the movie "Donnie Brasco". Their marriages nearly always fail, and it tends not to be especially traumatic for them. They compartmentalize, making friends with their subjects, but not getting too worked up when their subjects get whacked. If you differ, That's ok..

Answering in the Stan thread because it seems to span more than this ep, but I do agree.

Erin9 · April 3, 2018

My general feeling on Marxism was it didn’t include human nature in the ultimate equation. It’s a nice, idealistic idea, but not viable imo. People are people are people. Human nature doesn’t change imo.

One thought on Paige. Kids are rarely truly exceptional at the things their parents are. Good, sure. Extraordinary, rarely. To make it as a spy period Paige would need to be exceptionally talented. Her parents are that. Highly unlikely she will be imo. Setting aside what we’ve already seen, Paige’s background and skill set, it’s really not likely.

I think Elizabeth wants and needs her to be good for many reasons. It’s validation for choices regarding Paige. It’s a way to bond. While it doesn’t make up for the loss of Philip at all, it’s better than nothing. For Paige, I think this is a way to bond with her mom, maybe Philip too even if he is retired, a cause for her to latch onto.

Elizabeth is someone who has blind loyalty AND is exhausted and burned out. That is incredibly dangerous. Philip is realistic, a thinker and a questioner. That’s a good thing to be, especially given the state of the USSR. I could see him approaching this situation as a way for a better Russia, world and to help look after Elizabeth. Maybe. If he goes for it.

Umbelina · April 3, 2018

15 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

snip

One thought on Paige. Kids are rarely truly exceptional at the things their parents are. Good, sure. Extraordinary, rarely. To make it as a spy period Paige would need to be exceptionally talented. Her parents are that. Highly unlikely she will be imo. Setting aside what we’ve already seen, Paige’s background and skill set, it’s really not likely.

I think Elizabeth wants and needs her to be good for many reasons. It’s validation for choices regarding Paige. It’s a way to bond. While it doesn’t make up for the loss of Philip at all, it’s better than nothing. For Paige, I think this is a way to bond with her mom, maybe Philip too even if he is retired, a cause for her to latch onto.

Elizabeth is someone who has blind loyalty AND is exhausted and burned out. That is incredibly dangerous. Philip is realistic, a thinker and a questioner. That’s a good thing to be, especially given the state of the USSR. I could see him approaching this situation as a way for a better Russia, world and to help look after Elizabeth. Maybe. If he goes for it.

Yes, Elizabeth is all in on making Paige a success as a spy, for many reasons, including I think, to show Philip SHE was right. If Paige fails, that means Philip was right and Elizabeth was wrong, and I don't think Elizabeth can stand that, and it may be a bigger motivator for her than the glorious cause. Mix that in with motherhood and bonds with children and the pot is full of sticky stuff that can easily turn into a giant mess.

It also makes Hans' story much more interesting, contrasting the way she trained Hans, with what we are seeing from Paige, and they completely different ways Elizabeth handled the two.

Being single minded and stubborn and needing to be "the best" and "right" can be great motivators, but they also leave you with huge blind spots, and for Elizabeth, that is very dangerous, for her, for Paige, for her family, for the USSR, and certainly for bystanders and enemies. Creepy sailor dude is now dead for example.

sistermagpie · April 3, 2018

33 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

One thought on Paige. Kids are rarely truly exceptional at the things their parents are. Good, sure. Extraordinary, rarely. To make it as a spy period Paige would need to be exceptionally talented. Her parents are that. Highly unlikely she will be imo. Setting aside what we’ve already seen, Paige’s background and skill set, it’s really not likely.

It's funny because usually for spying one of the main things people would look for is a skill at languages, something neither kid has shown aptitude for yet. I believe Paige once mentioned French homework and with Henry they mentioned a Spanish tutor, but they seem to be very typical American high school students who will take a language for years and never be able to speak a word. (I can't imagine the show would want to force themselves to write scenes where KR or MM had to attempt even simple conversations in Russian with Paige.)

We don't know exactly what skills Elizabeth and Philip showed that got them the attention of the KGB, but they have to both be great at languages to do what they're doing. Not that all of this is directly relevant, but it does seem fitting that Paige avoids being the type of spy that's motivated by an interested in immersion in another culture/language.

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It also makes Hans' story much more interesting, contrasting the way she trained Hans, with what we are seeing from Paige, and they completely different ways Elizabeth handled the two.

I always think it would be funny to tell Paige that her mother is the one with the history of mentoring young spies on the show and that she should talk to some of them. But she can't, because they're all dead. Either with Elizabeth's blessing or by Elizabeth's hand. (I'm thinking of Lucia, even though she wasn't trained by Elizabeth, Gregory and Hans here.) Elizabeth made that whole speech comparing losing Gregory to Martha to Philip in David Copperfield, but that's probably why she shouldn't be making her daughter an asset.

It makes it seem like they maybe intentionally killed Hans not just so that Elizabeth didn't have another protege to worry about, but to load her up for her eventually moment of realization. Not only did her last protege die, she killed him herself without blinking because it had to be done.

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