S03.E13: Nathaniel is Irrelevant!

[whiporee]

But nothing actually happened, right? I mean there was no actual consequence to anyone. I mean, maybe talking about it is heinous, and maybe Rebecca actually did something (or maybe Trent just saw her search), and maybe Nathaniel actually put those things in motion, but there was no actual consequence. I know intent matters, but actually doing something matters, too, and I didn't see either Rebecca or Nathaniel actually harming anyone -- and even if you want to say they started to harm people but didn't, they still stopped it before actual damage was done. While it is more extreme, it feels more in line with writing a really nasty Yelp review and then deciding not to send it than actually planning another person's demise. Especially in Rebecca's case -- she was having an episode of extreme crazy and maybe did something crazy, and then tried to stop it. But, again, its not like she met a guy with a bag full of cash and gave him a picture and address. 

Not to argue the point too much, but Rebecca did actually harm Josh by intentionally scaring him with her kidnapping note. That was cruel and vicious. But, like I said before, she's crazy. Has a diagnosis and everything. 

[AllyB]

44 minutes ago, whiporee said:

But nothing actually happened, right? I mean there was no actual consequence to anyone. I mean, maybe talking about it is heinous, and maybe Rebecca actually did something (or maybe Trent just saw her search), and maybe Nathaniel actually put those things in motion, but there was no actual consequence.

Trent couldn't have blackmailed her with a search. Rebecca did arrange a hit on Mona, then she woke up and did something that she hoped would be enough to cancel it though she wasn't sure. Nathaniel did arrange for all of those things to happen to Josh's family and if he hadn't told Rebecca or if she hadn't reacted badly when he did, they would have happened. Nathaniel arranged for it to happen and only stopped it so he could stay in Rebecca's favour. He's a much worse person than Rebecca as she was the one who stopped both Nathaniel and herself. But it's a low bar.

[DianeDobbler]

There was stuff in the finale that I think they left in without realizing it was WTF - such as Nathaniel rushing home to his apartment to be sure Mona was ok, which means he took the hit for real (which is was - that's what the show is telling us), but then a couple of beats later he's dumped Mona and wants back with Rebecca. Bad look that he wants a woman who tried to kill his girlfriend, even worse look that Rebecca only hopes she called it off, so Mona may still be in danger. CEG also switched up Nathaniel's reasons for being w/Rebecca. Whenever we checked in on them it was all feelings, expressing yourself, honesty, blah blah, and he even hoped he could have that with Mona when she opened up about coming from an emotionally closed family. But Nathaniel's song with Rebecca was all about how she liberates him from having a conscience. Ok. Was this new, or something we were supposed to have figure out before? Cause I didn't see it. I saw him BEING a guy who blew off the consequences of his behavior and Rebecca's behavior, but I also thought he was learning to be a real boy. I guess she was the wrong teacher.

IMO, especially in retrospect, Josh was brilliantly positioned because while he was attracted to Rebecca, cared about her, admired her, and I think at times was in love with her, he was inherently ambivalent about all of his romantic relationships. With Valencia, he pretty much did the thing where the girl has no choice but to break up with you. At the same time, he was a guy who always had to be in a relationship!

I think he definitely had romantic feelings for Rebecca, but he also told Father Brah the wedding had to work because it was all he had going on right now. So while the show loves to play him as a dumber than a rock this season, he was actually a conflicted guy without a lot of insight about it, and that internal conflict helped drive story. When Rebecca made him feel good, he was all about it. When he could make HER feel good, he was all about it. But when she acted weird, I think that tapped into his ever-present uneasiness and ambivalence about committing to anyone, and if Rebecca picked up on it, she doubled down to keep him with her, and if she didn't pick up on it, we still knew it was going to blow up at some point. Whereas Nathaniel is pretty much just a standard issue dude defined by his "love"? for Rebecca, it's not going to change. He's got nothing else, there's no conflict to getting with her except external circumstances and a very shallow sort of insecurity easily cleared up if they came clean about their feelings. Which I guess they did in the song about being sociopaths. :( 

Edited February 22, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[SomeTameGazelle]

20 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

There was stuff in the finale that I think they left in without realizing it was WTF - such as Nathaniel rushing home to his apartment to be sure Mona was ok, which means he took the hit for real (which is was - that's what the show is telling us), but then a couple of beats later he's dumped Mona and wants back with Rebecca. Bad look that he wants a woman who tried to kill his girlfriend, even worse look that Rebecca only hopes she called it off, so Mona may still be in danger.

He can not want Mona to be murdered without being in love with her. I think the way they handled Nathaniel's relationship with Mona was bizarre, but a normal human might even feel more guilty about the possible death of someone they're thinking of breaking up with. (On the other hand, sociopath.)

[DianeDobbler]

43 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

He can not want Mona to be murdered without being in love with her. I think the way they handled Nathaniel's relationship with Mona was bizarre, but a normal human might even feel more guilty about the possible death of someone they're thinking of breaking up with. (On the other hand, sociopath.)

I was not thinking it meant he was in love. But if you think Rebecca Bunch has put a hit out on your girlfriend, and you rush to the apartment to be sure your girlfriend is still breathing, and you sigh with relief she's alive, it then seems a little odd to me that you break up with your girlfriend and get together with Rebecca. Not so much the break up with the girlfriend part, because as you've pointed out, that and not wanting her murdered are separate things. But the getting with Rebecca part, a woman who put a hit out on your girlfriend. You know, the same day you found out she did it, and took it seriously enough to rush home. 

I think it sticks with me because it came across to me that CEG wanted us to see Nathaniel as a caring sort of person in that moment, despite not being in love with Mona. And that is just an enormous WTF to me, considering the context. Phew, the hit person didn't get her! Maybe Rebecca did succeed in stopping the hit! Boy I wish I were with Rebecca right now. 

They could have just skipped the part about him checking in on Mona, is my point. What did that accomplish for the character?

[Eeksquire]

The confessions from Rebecca in the finale were off for another reason - with the exception of lying to Paula, everything else happened BEFORE the time jump, but no one made that clear.  The timing doesn't excuse any of the behavior, but it does make it clear that no, no one is going to murder Mona (if it hasn't happened in eight months, seems like Rebecca was successful in canceling the hit).  Similarly, the stuff with Josh's family happened even before that, in the aftermath of the wedding.  The more I think about it, the more of a cheat this whole plot point seems to be - it's like the writers wanted to have it both ways with the baby being born AND all of these actions seeming very immediate.

[smartymarty]

7 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

The confessions from Rebecca in the finale were off for another reason - with the exception of lying to Paula, everything else happened BEFORE the time jump, but no one made that clear. 

NICE catch.

[KingOfHearts]

17 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

The confessions from Rebecca in the finale were off for another reason - with the exception of lying to Paula, everything else happened BEFORE the time jump, but no one made that clear.  The timing doesn't excuse any of the behavior, but it does make it clear that no, no one is going to murder Mona (if it hasn't happened in eight months, seems like Rebecca was successful in canceling the hit).  Similarly, the stuff with Josh's family happened even before that, in the aftermath of the wedding.  The more I think about it, the more of a cheat this whole plot point seems to be - it's like the writers wanted to have it both ways with the baby being born AND all of these actions seeming very immediate.

That's an issue I see on a lot of shows. Events that happened a long time ago are treated like they happened yesterday, or vice versa. I don't think the time jump did a service to anyone but Heather. We just didn't need it. I have a hard time believing the last eight months were so uneventful for Rebecca that nothing was worth mentioning.

Edited February 23, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[smartymarty]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't think the time jump did a service to anyone but Heather.

I think you're right. I had a hard time believing that Rebecca and Nathaniel were having supply closet sex for eight months while Nathaniel was also dating Mona. Makes it difficult for me to ship Reb-Nat knowing he cheated for so long.

[huahaha]

On 2/21/2018 at 11:39 PM, DianeDobbler said:

They could have just skipped the part about him checking in on Mona, is my point. What did that accomplish for the character?

The point is that characters (people) aren't all bad or all good. The writers know that viewers want to redeem the leading man so that he's worthy of the leading lady. We've gotten all sorts of clues that Nathaniel can be redeemed. But ultimately, this is a sociopath who put a hit out on someone's grandfather just for sex with a particular woman. Not for revenge, not over competition. Nathaniel cares about Mona to the extent that he doesn't want her to die. That doesn't make him good, though.

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

I think you're right. I had a hard time believing that Rebecca and Nathaniel were having supply closet sex for eight months while Nathaniel was also dating Mona. Makes it difficult for me to ship Reb-Nat knowing he cheated for so long.

Nathaniel is a sociopath. He was happy to use Mona for companionship and affection while getting as much time as he could with Rebecca. The show both wants you to ship Nathaniel with Rebecca and to remember that he's actually a bad guy. And falling in love doesn't fix that. If anything, loving Rebecca made Nathaniel worse because he justifies her bad actions as well as his own. I think the show has done a good job showing that since last season, when Nathaniel just didn't care that Rebecca had burned someone's apartment down. He wants what he wants (in this case, Rebecca), and other people don't matter.

The show was brilliant, I thought, in giving viewers the satisfaction of seeing Nathaniel and Rebecca confess their love while still acknowledging that their relationship isn't healthy.

The casting of Scott Michael Foster was extremely smart because he has such a sweet, sensitive demeanor. Without that, I think it would be more obvious that going with Nathaniel would be a serious hit to Rebecca's progress and her morality.

Edited February 23, 2018 by huahaha

[smartymarty]

I think I just consider the "put the hit out on someone" parts of the plot as comedy, not real. I yada, yada them, and allow myself to be entertained. Kind of like Jane the Virgin -- soap opera silliness. More serious shows I'd hold feet to the fire on plot fails, but not so much this one. My only wish was that the promise of the first half of this season, about addressing mental illness, had been fulfilled in the second half. (I know that contradicts my "it's just a funny show" position.) Maybe we'll get that in season four.

Edited February 23, 2018 by smartymarty

[Eolivet]

I actually really enjoyed that. I had no problem with Rebecca being arrested for the one thing she was justified in doing -- the equivalent of getting Al Capone on a tax evasion. She got away with so much, it was bound to happen. And I didn't think "Nothing is Ever Anyone's Fault" spelled doom for Rebecca and Nathaniel, but reiterated the position of the show that self-actualization is one's happy ending. That's why Greg left when he discovered his, that's why Heather is such a good foil for Rebecca, that's why Paula got happier in her marriage when she got happier in her career. I think Dr. Akopian's position is the show's position -- that Rebecca deserves love. It's not her happy ending, it's a component of it (just like Paula's marriage isn't her happy ending either or Valencia's new happiness with Beth, also connected to a business venture). But Nathaniel is just as broken as she is, and until he fixes himself, he will be no good for her. Since I believe this show has an ultimately optimistic worldview, I could see Rebecca's happy ending being self-actualization, with the implication that she and Nathaniel (or someone else) might be happy together as part of it.

But if CW decides to cancel the show, oddly enough, I'll be pretty satisfied with this ending. Rebecca has taken a big step towards self-actualization by admitting guilt for something she did (even if, for the first time ever, it was justified). I can easily imagine a happy ending for her after that.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

They just decided to extend their programming to Sundays and according to Aline and Rachel, they still only plan to do one more season, so I think TheCW will pick up their most critically-acclaimed show for a final season.

The CW knew from the get-go that Brosh McKenna and Bloom had four seasons planned for the show, so I'm sure the contracts were written accordingly. I can see the network decreasing the budget for the final season if it's unhappy, but not canceling the show with one season to go. It already has fewer episodes than, say, Jane the Virgin.

10 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Again, they got away with singing "it wasn't Hitler's fault" on network television?

It's all about context. They weren't seriously denying the Holocaust or anything.

[DianeDobbler]

On 2/24/2018 at 4:59 AM, nosleepforme said:

My favorite part of the show is still the music and how it continues to push the boundaries of network television. I am not sure if I would watch the show if it wasn't a musical.  I was surprised they got away with Paula's vagina throne, particularly once the children run out of it to do their little dance number. 

I don't know if it's my favorite part, but I thought all of the music in the first half of this season was a new high point for the show. Loved every song in the premiere, from the Disney opening onward. LOVED the midseason finale from "Sexy sexy scary lady" to "End of the Movie." From the subsequent episode to the end, it more felt like, "Oh, we're a musical, so we have to write a couple of songs at least." It felt rote to me. 

[KaleyFirefly]

On 2/17/2018 at 12:54 AM, KingOfHearts said:

If Rebecca is going to be punished, she should be for something she actually did wrong. There's nothing satisfying about this to me. 

I totally agree. The one time she actually does something selfless and good (saving Nathaniel's life), she is going to be punished for it? And why can't she prove that Trent stalked her for years? She could show the police the creepy storage locker Trent has with all Rebecca stuff in it.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 2/19/2018 at 5:37 PM, DianeDobbler said:

Her attitude towards Trent, within the universe of the show, was total asshole. "Asshole" is also kind of an underpinning of the tone of the show since her diagnosis, frankly. Very self-satisfied.

I completely disagree with this...Trent was blackmailing her into being his girlfriend. That is asshole guy behavior. He is also a creepy stalker, and has pursued Rebecca even though she told him many times that she was not interested. Unfortunately, there are a lot of guys in real life who are like this. She was completely justified in telling him, in no uncertain terms, that she would never love him. 

[aradia22]

Donna is really pretty with her hair down. I didn't love the song but I liked the aesthetic. 

Wait? In between sessions? She's still in group therapy? How often is she doing that and seeing Dr. Akopian? And also going to work? 

I'm slightly amused that "crudo" continues to be a thing at Home Base.

I thought this was a pretty weak episode again until the very end. I loved the Nathaniel/Rebecca duet. It was insightful in the way that's been absent lately. This is the show I signed up for. Plus I also enjoyed it as a song. 

On the one hand, I'm glad the actual end of the episode made progress. But on the other hand, even if Rebecca has brainwashed him (unintentionally) to some degree, he's supposed to be a good enough lawyer to know that guilty by reason of mental insanity doesn't usually work. And Rebecca should be a good enough lawyer to not plead guilty to attempted murder (or whatever it was) when she wasn't trying to intentionally hurt Trent. I get that she wants to take responsibility but that's not the way to do it. Surely there's some kind of self defense plea for protecting another person or something like that. This just felt like a gesture and also I'm tired of a season of no one really doing any lawyering. 

[aradia22]

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but also the idea that he was just on the spectrum, took advantage, but didn't have it in him to be the explicit cartoon monster he became in this finale. So they ruined that character. "I'm a sexy scary man?"

I think I would have been into his shift into Lifetime baddie if they'd taken the time to play it up the way they did when Rebecca was first jilted by Josh at the altar and she played woman scorned for a little while. 

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Rebecca's self-delusion has been based on the idea that unconditional love would fix her. Nathaniel finally proved that was a lie. He offered the full package: gorgeous (in show universe, whether you agree or not), as smart as she is, successful, deeply in love, great in bed, rich and well-bred, and he chose her even when he supposedly had better options. Turning down his offer to make her mistakes go away showed actual growth.

Plus they gave Nathaniel what I call "Perfect Boyfriend Syndrome" to really go overboard with the unconditional love. Everything she did, he still wanted her. He was either accepting or he rationalized it away and he told himself, and her, that she was a good person. I'm not sure I buy the argument that he only loves her because she gave him an excuse to blame his parents. Or that he didn't undergo a personality overhaul. Aside from cheating on Mona, we have no evidence that Nathaniel is still a person who does bad things (but now doesn't feel bad about it). If anything, he was someone who didn't feel guilty before and is now capable of empathy and guilt. 

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Okay, Trent was kind of scary this episode. Perhaps too much so (I find it hard to believe that he was really going to kill Nathaniel, but that's apparently what we are supposed to believe is actually the case for his character). 

Maybe it's because I think the show would never be that dark but even when Trent was sending her the warning via Instagram story, I had assumed that the plan was to make people think Rebecca was crazy. Assume George is the average person. What they see is Rebecca running into a party she wasn't invited to yelling about someone trying to hurt Nathaniel, etc. That changed a little when Trent was actually holding a knife but I think the plan could have been more or less the same. I think Trent got more than he bargained for when Rebecca pushed him off the roof. (Note to villains: stop standing by the edges of roofs, balconies, and precipices. It does not end well.)

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Nevertheless, with some jail time, opportunities for “Chicago”-inspired song choices could abound.

Ooh, that's the first thing I've heard that makes me at all interested in this court case.

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So I don't understand his rushing home to check on Mona at all.

Wow. I was so disconnected from Rebecca giving them the lists at that point that I didn't make the connection that Nathaniel rushed home because of Rebecca's murder solicitation. It confused me because I was wondering why he would know to be concerned about Trent.

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Maybe they didn't know how to write that story because it's not in their life experience. That's what research is for.

THIS.

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I don't blame some fans for thinking Rebecca and Nathaniel are sweet and perfect. The relationship is a mess, and CEG has played both ends against the middle. Are Nathaniel's bad actions for real or just comedy? Were his OTT decisions re Josh's family who he really is (a monster, basically) or a joke? What about the poor little rich boy Nathaniel - is he getting validation from Rebecca for his brattiness or is his heart growing three times its size? What about the Nathaniel we're meant to equate with obvious good guy WhiJo? It's completely unclear. Viewers can choose what they want to believe - CEG hasn't made a choice.

This is a good summation. I think why I'm generally on board with Nathaniel is because I assumed the show was doing a reset on his character and making the choice to sell the romance. But with the last few episodes and the affair and bringing up when he made the deal with Rebecca to hurt Josh and the last song... I've realized they have no idea what they want to do.

[iMonrey]

I just recently discovered this show on Netflix and have just finished the third season. I have to say, the show took a rather dark turn in this last season I didn't particularly care for. I much preferred when the show was about a slightly batshit but highly functional young woman trying to win back an old boyfriend. Once it got clinical and gave her a diagnosis after a suicide attempt the charm was gone. It was no longer the lighthearted romp I fell for. Granted, the original premise wasn't really sustainable long-term but the whimsy and the music don't really lend themselves to the more serious mental health problem the show tried to tackle this season.

I also grew to realize just how much my enjoyment of the show depended on Greg once he was gone. I like Scott Michael Foster just fine but Santino Fontana brought something to the table that turned out to be more crucial to the overall formula than I realized, until he wasn't on the show anymore. My overall enjoyment really plummeted with his departure. 

I'll probably check out the new season once it drops, but I don't think the show can recapture what made it special in its first couple of seasons. It's just too serious now.

[jonaswan2]

On 3/22/2018 at 11:45 PM, aradia22 said:

Maybe it's because I think the show would never be that dark but even when Trent was sending her the warning via Instagram story, I had assumed that the plan was to make people think Rebecca was crazy. Assume George is the average person. What they see is Rebecca running into a party she wasn't invited to yelling about someone trying to hurt Nathaniel, etc. That changed a little when Trent was actually holding a knife but I think the plan could have been more or less the same. I think Trent got more than he bargained for when Rebecca pushed him off the roof. (Note to villains: stop standing by the edges of roofs, balconies, and precipices. It does not end well.)

It's a direct mirror to the ransom note Rebecca left Josh.

There was never any intent to harm. Trent just wanted Rebecca's attention and to get at the only thing he thought she cared about in that moment.

 

The whole plot was to force Rebecca (and the audience) to view everything that Rebecca did as threatening and creepy. Honestly, Trent didn't even do half the things Rebecca did to Josh, Greg and the gang.

On 4/8/2018 at 4:57 PM, iMonrey said:

I just recently discovered this show on Netflix and have just finished the third season. I have to say, the show took a rather dark turn in this last season I didn't particularly care for. I much preferred when the show was about a slightly batshit but highly functional young woman trying to win back an old boyfriend. Once it got clinical and gave her a diagnosis after a suicide attempt the charm was gone. It was no longer the lighthearted romp I fell for. Granted, the original premise wasn't really sustainable long-term but the whimsy and the music don't really lend themselves to the more serious mental health problem the show tried to tackle this season.

I also grew to realize just how much my enjoyment of the show depended on Greg once he was gone. I like Scott Michael Foster just fine but Santino Fontana brought something to the table that turned out to be more crucial to the overall formula than I realized, until he wasn't on the show anymore. My overall enjoyment really plummeted with his departure. 

I'll probably check out the new season once it drops, but I don't think the show can recapture what made it special in its first couple of seasons. It's just too serious now.

This whole piece is intended to be Rebecca's mental health journey. It's lighthearted in the beginning because the protagonist doesn't take herself or her issues seriously. The tone starts to change because the character is finally reaching a stage in her life where she's touching somewhat closer to reality.