S13.E12: Various and Sundry Villains

[belbar]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Well that was a waste of an hour that I wish I could have back. Awful episode. I wish I'd skipped it

For moments it felt even embarrasing.

[catrox14]

Rowena wasn't on a redemption path here IMO. She played Dean and Sam to get that page in the book for whatever reasons.  I honestly think at this point she might be one of the doll witch things like in Twigs and Twine and Tasha Banes. Didn't their eyes light up purple and then blue?  I think she's not intended for redemption personally.  

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Hopefully I’ll have an opportunity to post more detailed thoughts later, but I really enjoyed that episode. Castiel’s characterisation was the best we’ve seen in ages and he was actually allowed to be a badass! I also enjoyed the Samwena scenes in particular the bond their shared trauma created between them. The only negative was the ridiculousness overpowering of Dean. He can take out Sam effortlessly with one punch and then later again in the street? Yeah, right. I’m happy to discuss the last more in bitch vs Jerk, but to be clear im not saying Dean couldn’t win in a fight against Sam. Just that it wouldn’t take one punch to do so. 

Sam and Dean have both been dropped by one punch a few times even during a fight when they were expecting to be hit. In this situation, Sam was not ready to be hit, had turned his back to Dean for a moment and when he turned back around Dean clocked him.

What's  more stupid is that Dean didn't go and pick up the keys but would rather walk to the place solely for Sam to drive himself to the location. 

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

ecause it's so much worse to get beaten up by a girl.  "You got sidelined by a 13 year old girl?"

My point remains that Dean has been bested by females in fights before and he doesn't typically remark on it as a matter of course from a sexist perspective.  "This isn't gender studies. Women can do the job just fine. Amateurs can't". Dean is not a sexist numbnut who is embarrassed by losing to females in a fight. He wasn't teasing Sam this time like he did then. This is Dean speaking of losing to women. It's shitty writing. IMO,

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

What's  more stupid is that Dean didn't go and pick up the keys but would rather walk to the place solely for Sam to drive himself to the location. 

This is the kind of stuff that made this one Awful.

 

2 minutes ago, belbar said:

For moments it felt even embarrasing.

 IKR.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I don't want see him as comic relief anymore, tbh. He's better than strictly and only that. Frankly, I'd rather he not be in an episode of this show at all if that's all they're going to use him for.

I don't disagree but it was the only thing worth watching in this ep because Jensen did make me laugh.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't disagree but it was the only thing worth watching in this ep because Jensen did make me laugh.

That's cool, and I liked that he got to cold cock Sam while under the spell, too, but the lack of badassity and real storyline within the writing for him in these last two seasons from the present set of writers just rankles too much, at this point.

I watched because I wanted to give Yockey the benefit of the doubt. I didn't wait for my usual feedback from my friend(who, too late, advised me to skip it). Lesson learned.

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think there's any real mystery to Sam revealing his "darkest secret" to Rowena.  IMO it's just that he found someone that can understand what he's going through. (Remember Dean telling Sam that he couldn't explain hell, that he could never make him understand it and wouldn't *want* to?) 

Dean actually did end up telling Sam what he went through including torturing others. At this point, there is no real reason for Sam to not share that with Dean. So Sam not sharing this with Dean IMO, is like you said, an asspull but I think was foreshadowed when Dean got the mention of his Hell time. This show is so predictable at times. LOL

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My point remains that Dean has been bested by females in fights before and he doesn't typically remark on it as a matter of course from a sexist perspective.  "This isn't gender studies. Women can do the job just fine. Amateurs can't". Dean is not a sexist numbnut who is embarrassed by losing to females in a fight. He wasn't teasing Sam this time like he did then. This is Dean speaking of losing to women. It's shitty writing. IMO,

I also don't see Dean as ever having been overly PC.  He knows that men have more upper body strength than women.  So, I don't see it as being out of character that he wouldn't want to be "beaten up by a girl."

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm over Lucifer by a country mile, but I have to say this is the most interesting he's been in an episode since his return in S11. Now if only he would really and most sincerely be dead...

I'm also over the Dumb Dean schtick. We're supposed to just smile and nod and accept that he not only can't pronounce 'jour' (even the most hick people would probably know soup de jour), if not jour et nuit, he doesn't even recognize them as French? (Huh, weird words!) But Sam apparently not only has perfect French pronunciation, he clearly must be able to read French, if the book was going to be of help to him. Please.

Just once I'd like the show to remember that Dean hunted on his own for a long while, doing his own research and *gasp* even had his own laptop. But yeah, lets have him leave all that book learnin' to the smart folks and do what he's good at: go for beer. It wasn't even necessary for plotonium - plenty of other reasons for him to be alone in town to run across the Stupid Sisters.

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

That's cool, and I liked that he got to cold cock Sam while under the spell, too, but the lack of badassity and real storyline within the writing for him in these last two seasons from the present set of writers just rankles too much, at this point.

I watched because I wanted to give Yockey the benefit of the doubt. I didn't wait for my usual feedback from my friend(who, too late, advised me to skip it). Lesson learned.

this is where I'm getting my bread crumbs.  Yup, I did enjoy Dean punching Sam under the spell.  Dean's a skilled fighter, who would know how to cold cock someone. 

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't disagree but it was the only thing worth watching in this ep because Jensen did make me laugh.

He made me laugh, too -- Jensen is as good at the funny stuff as he is at everything else; but then thinking about it afterwards it was spoiled for me by the context. And it's a shame, because under other circumstances, I could have enjoyed Dean being funny and cute while under the spell: his exuberant little twirl as he comes back into the bunker, his innocent amazement that he actually had the exact book Jamie needed, his pleasure at the idea of walking back to Jamie since it was so "gooorgeous out!", the way he is so cheerful and nonchalant about knocking Sam out with one punch and promises to come back later to help him ice his face.

But I can't really enjoy it the way I would like because the show's writers think it is funny when someone is roofied by a love spell. I didn't like it in that stupid "Time for a Wedding" episode, and I didn't like it here. They could have made it some other kind of spell -- like, it didn't bother me when Dean was stoned after eating that Turduken sandwich -- but they had to make it a love spell, because I guess it's so hilarious when someone is forced by magic to kiss someone.

Is there no one who works on the show who can explain this to these writers? Maybe they would be able to understand if they imagined it with the genders switched -- would they think it was charming and funny if it was a woman being forced by a spell to kiss a man who was going to use and then kill her? Or if they are going to show this kind of thing, it can't be nothing but a funny joke; I need some acknowledgment of what is really going on.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Bergamot

[Jeddah]

33 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Is there no one who works on the show who can explain this to these writers? Maybe they would be able to understand if they imagined it with the genders switched -- would they think it was charming and funny if it was a woman being forced by a spell to kiss a man who was going to use and then kill her? Or if they are going to show this kind of thing, it can't be nothing but a funny joke; I need some acknowledgment of what is really going on.

The writers have always handled consent badly. The show has had consent issues that are played for laughs when the genders are reversed too. In “Simon Says” there’s a woman waving to Andy as he’s leaving her apartment in the morning, and it sure seems like he used his mind trick on her. In “Wishful Thinking” one kid used his wish to spy on his friend’s mom im the shower, and one guy made a girl fall in love with him. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Jeddah

[Myrelle]

I hated the girls and I knew that Dean wasn't going to be allowed to end them. I knew that it was either going to be Sam or Rowena and, as I said, to have to sit through an hour watching him be enthralled with them(or the one, to be more precise), with no pay-off for it, would have just made this one worse for me. It was bad enough that we were given Deansel and Samsel in Distress again and that the writing that put them in those roles was embarrassingly bad.

13 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

He made me laugh, too -- Jensen is as good at the funny stuff as he is at everything else; but then thinking about it afterwards it was spoiled for me by the context. And it's a shame, because under other circumstances, I could have enjoyed Dean being funny and cute while under the spell: his little exuberant little twirl as he comes back into the bunker, his innocent amazement that he actually had the exact book Jamie needed, his pleasure at the idea of walking back to Jamie since it was so "gooorgeous out!", the way he is so cheerful and nonchalant about knocking Sam out with one punch and promises to come back later to help him ice his face.

It makes for some great tumblr images and gifs, as most of the JA stuff does. That's for sure. When he was bringing them the book, his smile lights up the world. ;-)

You're right. It's too bad about the context, though.

[SueB]

Bits & Bobs:
- Sam sucker punched: Dean laid out Sam with one punch because it was a sucker punch. I don't take it as an indicator Dean is stronger than Sam.
- I've been team Samwena since "GIANT!".  It's my crackship.
- Dean's intelligence.  I rewatched that scene and think Dean accomplished more than hand books to Sam and go for a beer run.  First, it seems like going into research mode was Dean's idea.  And he knows this is what Sam needs to feel a modicum of control.  So Dean comes up with a pile of work to get down to business.  Second, he was smart enough to figure out the first thing to do was to go the MoL catelogue, find and gather all the books on alternate dimensions. He may have even done more than use the catelogue because he said these are the only books that mention alternate dimensions.  Third, just because he grossly mispronouced Jour et Nuit doesn't mean he's dumb.  Maybe it's an honest recognition of the words, or maybe he's playing a bit of the clown to help Sam kick into 'scholar mode'.  Either way, Dean, IMO has taken on the role (intentionally) of "motivator".  And they've made that clear.  It doesn't mean Dean is suddenly happy and no problems.  It's just that he realizes Sam really needs to be pushed right now.  They have done this repeatedly, one of the boys pushes down their issues because they recognize the other is in worse shape (at that moment).  It's a "role" they both take on.  Finally, both Sam and Dean in "research mode" often include beer.  If Dean's going to start a long reading session, and they are out of beer, Dean is just taking care of the essentials.
- The shallowness of the girls: Yikes.  Yes, they were awful.  But it was (IMO) intentionally so.  Seems like their Mom raised them to rely on magic, looks, and each other.  And not hard work.  And with their Mom dead, they apparently are VERY good at the "get love slaves" spell so that's how they get by.  I almost felt like they were holding up a fun house mirror to Sam and Dean. But instead of having John WInchester for a Dad, they had a vain witch.  And she raised them POORLY.  Yes, they are grown assed women and should be better than this, but their mother could have 'home schooled' them and warped their world view.  They certainly had no regard for anyone but themselves. And they were emotionally (and intellectually) LOST without their mother.  Shout out to whomever on Twitter called out "Joyce Summers!" for when their zombie Mom started walking around.  I think they may be laying some groundwork here, BTW, with an immune to magic mother.  I suspect Rowena's new powers come at a TERRIBLE price for her humanity.

 

More later... work beakons....   

[Pondlass1]

I'm not sure the ratings will be good for this one.  A casual fan watching those hackneyed heavy-handed first ten minutes would surely switch the channel.  Dabb  & Co., seem to be writing for the younger crowds more and more these days.  And they're not even the demo watching.  What about us grown ups, Dabb? 

It's  a stark contrast when watching earlier seasons when Dean wasn't dumb or clumsy (and probably could read simple French), the show was gritty dark back then, (and  guest stars could actually act).

The winner last week was Donna, the winners this week were Cas and Lucy (and I generally am not keen on either of them).  But they moved the story forward while the others were mucking about with bimbo witches.  And Cas seems to be getting his mojo back, fingers crossed.

The Rowena/Sam scenes were well done, although Ruthie's rather pointed nose got some bad angles and her eye makeup is distracting.  If it wasn't that episodes are filmed way in advance I would have suspected TPTB read our comments last week and clamored to  provide Sam a reason for his out of the blue despondency.  But some good acting from both of them in that scene.  And now Rowena has blue eyes.  I'm not sure what that means, but probably not good.  I tend to not enjoy witches on any show.  They lead to lazy writing as writers can have anything happen with a spell to get themselves out of a pickles if they've written themselves into a corner.  (Witches were the death toll to TVD which I watched religiously until season 4.)

I have to admit to feeling a twinge of glee to learn that Mary is suffering torture beyond compare.  I'm getting sadistic in my old age. LOL.

Not a bad episode, I guess.  But it would never make anyone's top 50 (or even 75). 

Fingers crossed ratings hold up.

[Bobcatkitten]

I really enjoyed it. I was nervous about the love spell and very glad they used it in moderation. Happy Dean was hilarious. Him hitting Sam and then saying he'd be back to help him ice it. I found the dialogue endearing. 

Also watching the boys fight was pretty funny. And them being glued to the ground was gold. Absolute gold. 

Sam's scene with Rowena was wonderful and later the BM kitchen scene was just great. I love when they talk to each other. Sam lied, Dean called him on it immediately and then Sam opened up. Again, I loved the dialogue. 

From one depressed Winchester to another this year - I do wish they would use their heads a bit and come up with a plan. It's about time. They are along for the ride this season instead of being in charge - which is my only real gripe.

 

As for Lucifer/Cas I enjoyed those scenes immensely. And it moved the story forward so looking forward to seeing where that goes next week. 

[Aeryn13]

I`d say this one was mediocre. The Cas-Lucifer scenes were okay and Cas got to be smart and badass and hold his own. 

The love spell didn`t lead to overly much slapstick but the dumb!Dean stuff nevertheless rankled. They always pull such a big focus on it during these scenes so everyone really gets it, "haha, the character can`t even recognize simple french" and "haha, the character doesn`t even know about sex". And telling the sisters they had witch killing bullets? Yeah, sure, announce it like that.

I did appreciate that at least he was able to figure out on his own that Sam had given Rowena the page. And that he initially fell under the spell not because of horndoggery or something but just because he tried to do something decent.

Rowena has now gotten a big power upgrade. I bet this will lead to some smaller mayhem but she will be ultimately helpful. They gave her too much of a sympathetic backstory here with mean old Lucifer. And while Dean`s hell time has been brought up this Season in the context of leading to some amusing but slapsticky gimmick, when they reference Sam`s time here it`s about the horrible trauma of it. 

Though apparently now Mary suffers worse than anyone in the history of suffering. Which on one hand, I hate the character enough after last Season to not have an ounce of sympathy, on the other, the writers seem incapable of not doing this ridiculous one-upmanship writing. 

There have been many much more painful episodes to watch in the show than this rather forgettable one but to me the annoyances stood out more in light of having no real truly good parts. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Is there no one who works on the show who can explain this to these writers? Maybe they would be able to understand if they imagined it with the genders switched -- would they think it was charming and funny if it was a woman being forced by a spell to kiss a man who was going to use and then kill her? Or if they are going to show this kind of thing, it can't be nothing but a funny joke; I need some acknowledgment of what is really going on.

Well, I don't know how the writers are supposed to show evil when they can't have the evil people do evil things without people being offended.  The guy and Dean were under a love spell. Nobody said that was a good thing.  The first guy even killed someone.  Obviously that was not charming.  yes, the goofy smile and eyes were supposed to be funny, I think.  I laughed.  But, if I'm not going to cry about the murdered cashier and the love spell guy getting murdered, I'm not going to worry that much about a kiss.

 

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

The shallowness of the girls: Yikes.  Yes, they were awful.  But it was (IMO) intentionally so.  Seems like their Mom raised them to rely on magic, looks, and each other.  And not hard work.  And with their Mom dead, they apparently are VERY good at the "get love slaves" spell so that's how they get by. 

What were their 3 rules again?  Never get too close to a guy.  Always make kills look natural.  I forgot the third one.  I think basically those rules were supposed to sum up their lives.

 

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

  And she raised them POORLY.  Yes, they are grown assed women and should be better than this, but their mother could have 'home schooled' them and warped their world view.  They certainly had no regard for anyone but themselves. And they were emotionally (and intellectually) LOST without their mother

They're witches.  I don't see it so much as her raising them badly as, well, they're witches.  Witches are evil.

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Though apparently now Mary suffers worse than anyone in the history of suffering. Which on one hand, I hate the character enough after last Season to not have an ounce of sympathy, on the other, the writers seem incapable of not doing this ridiculous one-upmanship writing. 

I think Mary was basically just stuck in a cage and left there.  Presumably brought some food once in a while.  The only thing was she wasn't allowed to move because of the "thorny" cage.  But, I don't think that was worse than anyone else got.  Lucifer was just trying to motivate Cas.  Honestly, he had no idea what was going on with Mary because they were kept separate.  We know this for a fact because she was nowhere to be seen in War of the Worlds.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I also don't see Dean as ever having been overly PC.  He knows that men have more upper body strength than women.  So, I don't see it as being out of character that he wouldn't want to be "beaten up by a girl."

Dean calls demons and monsters "bitch" or "skank"  and that's about the extent of Dean being not PC. He uses gendered slurs at times. Even then like with Ruby he hasn't said, "Man I wouldn't want anyone to know I was beaten by a demon wearing a girl's face". He just says 'screw that bitch'  and he tries to kill her.   I cannot think of one time beyond the teasing of Sam and this occasion that Dean has acted ashamed of being beaten by a female be it monster, demon or witch.  He had to ask Sam for help with Amara because of the weird ties he had to her that were beyond his control. He was ashamed of that non con connection. Now, if they would have had Dean say that he was embarrassed over losing control because he was ruffied and forced to kiss someone without consent, that would be understandable. But they didn't. They had Dean whine about losing to women as if it had never happened before and they had Sam correct him. I see it not being in character for Dean at all to have that attitude. I'll just agree to disagree on this :).

[Bergamot]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, I don't know how the writers are supposed to show evil when they can't have the evil people do evil things without people being offended. 

Just as I said. Don't depict something like this as nothing more than a funny joke. Acknowledge it, either in the text or the subtext. Not that hard to do.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

The show still has consent issues that are played for laughs when the genders are reversed. In “Simon Says” there’s a woman waving to Andy as he’s leaving her apartment in the morning, and it sure seems like he used his mind trick on her. In “Wishful Thinking” one kid used his wish to spy on his friend’s mom im the shower, and one guy made a girl fall in love with him.

And the show was roundly criticized for Wishful Thinking too.  Sam called out the kid for what he did and they both called out Ted Raimi for what he did. In both cases it was shown to be wrong. Here it's not shown to be wrong and ends up with Dean complaining about losing a fight to girls when he should have been complaining about getting ruffied in the first place. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

Just as I said. Don't depict something like this as nothing more than a funny joke. Acknowledge it, either in the text or the subtext. Not that hard to do.

And let the roofied person be the one to end them, especially when they're as bad as these two were.

I thought for a hot minute that they might let Dean have the kill when he told the counter clerk that he was going to be "very mean" to them, but Dabb strikes again, so nope-nothing but comic relief for you, Jensen/Dean. Just more sound and fury signifying nothing for both actor and character. Again. What a surprise. Not.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The love spell didn`t lead to overly much slapstick but the dumb!Dean stuff nevertheless rankled. They always pull such a big focus on it during these scenes so everyone really gets it, "haha, the character can`t even recognize simple french" and "haha, the character doesn`t even know about sex". And telling the sisters they had witch killing bullets? Yeah, sure, announce it like that.

What bothered me wasn't that he didn't know how to properly pronounce it, he didn't even know it's another language, just 'weird words' that he's too dumb to recognize. These things in and of themselves are funny and NBD, but when you repeat them, over and over, and it's always the same person being 'funny', then that becomes part of their character. And sorry, that's just not my Dean Winchester. 

[Jeddah]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And the show was roundly criticized for Wishful Thinking too.  Sam called out the kid for what he did and they both called out Sam Raimi for what he did. In both cases it was shown to be wrong. Here it's not shown to be wrong and ends up with Dean complaining about losing a fight to girls when he should have been complaining about getting ruffied in the first place. 

I was responding to the comments about the writers using it for laughs, and whether or not they’d do the same if the genders were switched. I wasn’t commenting on who was sufficiently called out or not.

 I’m pretty sure Sam Raimi was not involved, although he totally should direct an episode! :)

[DittyDotDot]

Slàinte!!!

I rather enjoyed this one. They found a nice balance between the humor and the horror; I thought the Valley Girl Witches were funny...and a zombie too! For the first time in a while Supernatural felt like Supernatural. That was nice.

And, Rowena!! No surprise she had sent the girls to get the book. And no surprise she played on Sam's sympathy to get the spell--even though I think Sam was being total idiot for giving it to her. But, that's what I love about Rowena; she's always un-apologetically working whatever angle works for her. She is not a good "guy" or even a sympathetic "guy", IMO and she knows it. I'm okay with that.

Oh, and BTW Sam and Dean, Crowley did not sacrifice himself for you; he sacrificed himself for himself. It was the ultimate screw you to the Devil by getting the last word while also screwing the Devil. Egotistical much, boys? ;)

Anyhoo, love to see Cass back and love to see him being smart and proactive. Now, if we can just allow him to be in the Winchester's presence for more than one episode... .

Overall, a decent episode, IMO.

14 hours ago, Katy M said:

I was wondering why they didn't just hex the cashier, too, but I figured it was because they wanted him dead, and if they killed him insdie, the cameras would see them. But, on the other hand, they could have just told him to come outside, so I guess that's not it.  Maybe, because he was behnd the counter, it would have made it more difficult for Jenny to get a hex bag in his pocket?  Or maybe he didn't have any pockets.

They said their mother taught them to always make the deaths look un-magic-y. So, getting the other guy to rob the store and kill the guy was less magic-y than them walking up to the counter and using a bunch of spells. This way everyone is dead and it doesn't draw the attention of any hunters.

13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

How come no one mentioned Ketch, asked Rowena whythehell (and when!) she gave him the resurrection spell, and warned her (since they were feeling generous) that he was after her?

I have no idea why they didn't ask her about Ketch--other than maybe it's best not to give her too much information unnecessarily--but I wonder if what Ketch said about her giving him the resurrection spell was true. I mean, he also told them he was his not-so-evil-twin, so... . It could be he was telling the truth, Rowena had mentioned the Brits chased her off, but I wouldn't put it past Rowena to tamper with the spell a bit so it didn't work quite right. Perhaps he's not really and truly un-dead and was looking for Rowena to fix what she had tampered with?

I just think it's always best to question anything that man says. ;)

11 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Maybe I misheard this, since I was not paying much attention to the Lucifer scenes, but did I hear Lucifer say that the torture that was being inflicted on Mary was more awful than even anything he himself had ever seen? I guess that means Mary is the new champion of being tortured, eclipsing even Sam! I don't know why this strikes me as funny, but it does. "No one in the history of torture's been tortured with torture like the torture you'll be tortured with!"  Sometimes this show makes me laugh even though it is something I don't think they intended to be funny.  :-)

 

I'm pretty sure Lucifer was being hyperbolic to get a reaction out of Cass, but that should not take away the fun you had with it. Because it is funny whether the show really thought it was or not! ;)

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What's  more stupid is that Dean didn't go and pick up the keys but would rather walk to the place solely for Sam to drive himself to the location. 

Actually, Dean tried to pick up the keys but Sam grabbed them first. That's when Dean decided it was fine, he'd just walk.

Edited February 2, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I was responding to the comments about the writers using it for laughs, and whether or not they’d do the same if the genders were switched. I wasn’t commenting on who was sufficiently called out or not.

 I’m pretty sure Sam Raimi was not involved, although he totally should direct an episode! :)

And I was furthering the discussion. I corrected myself. It was Ted Raimi not Sam Raimi which I changed between you quoting me and my comment.

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, Dean tried to pick up the keys but Sam grabbed them first. That's when Dean decided it was fine, he'd just walk.

Actually, I was referring to AFTER Dean punched Sam, who was knocked unconscious and from whom Dean could have still taken back his keys to drive there.

Edited February 2, 2018 by catrox14

[Boopsahoy]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

How come no one mentioned Ketch, asked Rowena whythehell (and when!) she gave him the resurrection spell, and warned her (since they were feeling generous) that he was after her?

I forgot all about him! Maybe the writers did too! (hoping!)

[Diane]

I really enjoyed this episode, it did feel like our Supernatural.  Comedy was good, Dean was cute when he was under the spell.  So glad to have Rowena back, she is campy and I love it. The boys were smart and together.  Glad to see Cas back also, but I am so tired of the Devil.  Looking forward to next week. 

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, I was referring to AFTER Dean punched Sam, who was knocked unconscious and from whom Dean could have still taken back his keys to drive there.

Well, he was hexed and I'm not sure he was really thinking like Dean, so I found it reasonable he'd just continue on his way given the circumstances. I was more flummoxed by how Sam found them so quickly, but that's me. I know it's a small town, but that seemed a bit too easy for me. But, whatcha gonna do? It's TV and these things happen. ::shrugs::

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I forgot all about him! Maybe the writers did too! (hoping!)

Unlikely. I'm betting there is more shenanigans afoot with Ketch and Rowena. I'm betting they are both going to be tied to Lucifer in some way because of those resurrection spells. 

And speaking of resurrection, Castiel said that Jack did resurrect him. He used those words. So I guess that answers just how much power Jack has.

[ILoveReading]

Dean's poor knee.  I believe it was the same one that was injured in 12.22.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, he was hexed and I'm not sure he was really thinking like Dean, so I found it reasonable he'd just continue on his way given the circumstances. I was more flummoxed by how Sam found them so quickly, but that's me. I know it's a small town, but that seemed a bit too easy for me. But, whatcha gonna do? It's TV and these things happen. ::shrugs::

I remember in s9 when Dean walked into town to shoot pool after he had the Mark because Sam took the car on a case. I think the bunker is supposed to be several miles outside of the downtown part of Lebanon Kansas. I bet it took Dean at least 30 minutes or more to walk into town. ***

My theory is that Sam wakes up shortly after being knocked out, jumps in the car and probably just followed the main road right into town. I can believe Sam found him easily in that situation. 

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean's poor knee.  I believe it was the same one that was injured in 12.22.

I thought the same thing! lOL

*** or at least it seemed like Dean walked. He was shown in the bar when Crowley found him. Then was shown walking down the street. It was never said if he took one of the other cars to the bar, so I'm thinking he just walked. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by catrox14

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, he was hexed and I'm not sure he was really thinking like Dean, so I found it reasonable he'd just continue on his way given the circumstances. I was more flummoxed by how Sam found them so quickly, but that's me. I know it's a small town, but that seemed a bit too easy for me. But, whatcha gonna do? It's TV and these things happen. ::shrugs::

I think they were waiting exactly where Dean left him.  And I think Dean may have said something about "going back." Surely Sam knows where Dean goes to buy beer.  So, that would be the first place I would have looked, also. And, Dean had to walk, so if Sam wasn't out of it more than a couple of minutes, he had catch up time.

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought Dean mentioned his date at the market. I think that's how Sam knew where. 

[Diane]

5 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I thought Dean mentioned his date at the market. I think that's how Sam knew where. 

I think he did too!

[catrox14]

From the transcript:

Dean said THE market, so I'm guessing it's the market they typically go to.

 

Quote

- What?

- Be nice. 'Cause she's got a sister. And if you play your cards right, you know, you guys might fall for each other. You know, the less attractive siblings, they fall in love. That's kind of cute, right?

Huh? Just hold on a second.

I can't wait 'cause she's waiting for me at the market, so I'm just gonna [ Keys jingle ] [ Squeaking ]

Okay. All right. That's fine. You know why? I'll walk 'cause it is gorgeous outside

Wait a second. Dean, listen, honestly -- [ Grunts ]

[ Thud ]

Ooh. Right on the button. Listen, when I get back from my date, I'm gonna help you ice that, okay?

 Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e12

[DittyDotDot]

Wow, sorry, didn't realize this would require research and so much debate or thought. My point was that there are always these little conveniences on TV. I'm okay with it. Really. It wasn't a big deal. Just a momentary, "Wonder how Sam knew exactly where Dean was going...oh well, whatever."

Sometimes the most innocuous comments can derail a whole thread. Sorry.

[Jonesy]

It was nice seeing a smart badass Cas this week--now they got to keep it up.  

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wow, sorry, didn't realize this would require research and so much debate or thought. My point was that there are always these little conveniences on TV. I'm okay with it. Really. It wasn't a big deal. Just a momentary, "Wonder how Sam knew exactly where Dean was going...oh well, whatever."

Sometimes the most innocuous comments can derail a whole thread. Sorry.

. How is it derailment when it's regarding the events of the episode?

[ZennyKenny]

- Dean being under a love spell

As fun as that was, I gotta say that I am SO RELIEVED that we didn't have an entire episode with Dean acting like that.

 

- Rowena returning

I feel like I'm in the minority here, but YAY! ^__^

 

- no such thing as 5th base

My favorite dialogue of the season, easily 

 

- Castiel stabbing Lucifer with an angel blade

Come on, you didn't REALLY think that I'd but for a second that they killed off Lucifer so mundanely, did you? The show is so madly in love with the character that I know his death would be a two-episode story complete with a flashback reel and a 15-minute monologue from him.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

- Dean being under a love spell

As fun as that was, I gotta say that I am SO RELIEVED that we didn't have an entire episode with Dean acting like that.

 

- Rowena returning

I feel like I'm in the minority here, but YAY! ^__^

 

- no such thing as 5th base

My favorite dialogue of the season, easily 

 

- Castiel stabbing Lucifer with an angel blade

Come on, you didn't REALLY think that I'd but for a second that they killed off Lucifer so mundanely, did you? The show is so madly in love with the character that I know his death would be a two-episode story complete with a flashback reel and a 15-minute monologue from him.

Honestly, what did Castiel learn the first time. He still didn't have an archangel blade to kill Lucifer. I don't get that writing unless there is some other kind of shenanigans going on.

Just now, catrox14 said:

no such thing as 5th base

My favorite dialogue of the season, easily 

 

Dean is so full of crap. He knows what 5th base is. LOL

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Honestly, what did Castiel learn the first time. He still didn't have an archangel blade to kill Lucifer. I don't get that writing unless there is some other kind of shenanigans going on.

I’m assuming Cas means he has learnt better than to enter a long term alliance with Lucifer like he did back in season 11. I’m going to assume his intent with stabbing Lucifer is to distract him long enough to get away, that, or they’re gonna revert back to dumb Cas next week and he’ll be utterly shocked the blade didn’t work. 

[ZennyKenny]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, what did Castiel learn the first time. He still didn't have an archangel blade to kill Lucifer. I don't get that writing unless there is some other kind of shenanigans going on.

Yeah. To me it seemed like the way it was portrayed that it was supposed to be some nail-biting cliffhanger. But I'm just like "nah, see you next episode." And IMAGINE. MY. SHOCK. when the previews showed Lucifer beating up Castiel. *rolls eyes*

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, what did Castiel learn the first time. He still didn't have an archangel blade to kill Lucifer. I don't get that writing unless there is some other kind of shenanigans going on.

Well, Lucifer isn't at full power, so why not take a shot? However, I don't think that's what Cass was referring to learning his lesson about. I think it was more about not making deals with devils. But as @Katy M said, no one learns their lesson forever on this show. ;)

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m assuming Cas means he has learnt better than to enter a long term alliance with Lucifer like he did back in season 11. I’m going to assume his intent with stabbing Lucifer is to distract him long enough to get away, that, or they’re gonna revert back to dumb Cas next week and he’ll be utterly shocked the blade didn’t work. 

Oh. I didn't get that at all. I assumed it had everything to do with him stabbing Lucifer two more times instead of the one in the AW. 

[MysteryGuest]

I haven't watched a 2nd time yet, but just some random comments.

I think the show was trying to give Rowena a bit of a redemption arc the past two seasons.  She admitted that meeting God and Amara changed things for her, and last season she was more frenemy than enemy.  She's always going to be working a con, because that's who she is, but I thought that the random killing was a thing of the past.  Honestly, I didn't give those deaths a second thought while watching the episode, but now that it's been pointed out, it is rather horrific.  But this show has a history of glossing over the collateral killing of innocent people.

I didn't feel that Cas was actually trying to kill Lucifer at the end of the episode.  I thought he stabbed him to send a message that he wasn't falling for his crap, and to weaken him a bit more.  Now if they come back next week to show that Lucifer still overpowers him at that point, I'm not going to be happy.  They need to stop making Castiel look stupid and weak.

Both Sam and Dean have been able to knock the other one out with a single punch on this show.  In this case, Dean totally took Sam by surprise, so I hardly think it made Sam look weak in comparison.

Both brothers need to sit down and come up with a plan of some kind.  I realize they have limited options, but there have to be other dream walkers out there.  Maybe they can't get Sam and Dean to Jack, but they could possibly get a message to Jack somehow.   Obviously, they're going to figure it out somehow, or someone is going to help them, but they need to stop acting as if they're going through this on their own.

[Wayward Son]

30 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Now if they come back next week to show that Lucifer still overpowers him at that point, I'm not going to be happy.  They need to stop making Castiel look stupid and weak.

I’m fully expecting that to happen. Making Castiel look grossly stupid and incompetent has been the order of the day since Dabb’s influence began to grow back in season eleven. I’m pretty convinced when Yockey wanted to give us a competent Cas this week it was granted with the condition he set things up so the status quo could be restored next week. 

 

As a Cas fan Im just going to enjoy this week respite from the incompetent bumbling fool Cas has become under Dabb. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

I also don't think Cas believed it would kill him (although he was making it clear he would be happy if it did).  

I actually don't care if Lucy throws him 30 feet.  I really like that Cas sent an unambiguous screw you.  And I DO think that Cas actually collulded with Lucifer to get out.  Cas seemed pleased when he realized talking aout the goodness of Jack was disturbing to Lucifer.  I suspect Lucifer said to keep up the trash talking so he could amp up his mojo to get out.  And Lucifer ACTUALLY let Cas out.  Which was necessary but also a bit of a relief.  But even if that didn't work, talking trash at Lucifer is not a bad decision IMO.  Lucifer is delusional if he thinks he's the good guy (and he wants to be).

I think talking about his "true face" was part foreshadowing that the inherent evil in Lucifer is unbearable to witnessess without a meat suit (hence Rowena and Sam's PTSD).

[Sassyfangirl]

I liked the episode and dean was just so awesome as always. I hated those witch sisters and Jamie was lucky to get a kiss from dean. I’m glad Rowena is back but I hated luicfer. Glad that cas was t being a dumbass like he was last episode. Sam wasn’t as annoying in this but still dumb to let Rowena have that spell. Hope she won’t turn bad. I have liked these episodes so far and I even like wayward sisters. But I still hated Claire. And spn will always be awesome to me no matter what. Looking forward to next week. As I said I dont see why dean and sister jo shouldn’t hook up. It wouldn’t be weird plus dean needs love now more than ever. I rather Donna and dean to hook up but damn writers!! Oh well still love spn and love dean the best:)

Ps danneel is the luckiest bitch ever just saying. Anyway I still love Jensen/dean 

[SueB]

Looking at the Latin:

Quote

Ego sum filia naturae.

Cum osculatione lunae.

Da mihi vocem liberatam.

Remitte vim meam.

Flam invincta!

Google Translate:
 

Quote

I am a daughter of nature.

When kissing the moon.

Give me the voice of liberty.

Look away from the soul.

Unconquerable flames!

But Google translate is not great, and frankly, I'm not sure their Latin is spot on either. The key phrase: Remitte vim meam. Is debateable IMO.
Remitte: send back, remit, throw back, relax, diminish
vim: force
Meam: I or my

Which COULD be translated into:  Take my force   (note 'vis' = strength (sg. only), force, power, might, violence)

And she then she cuts her throat and out slips something that LOOKS like grace. COULD be her natural magic (the purple and all)?

So, between the visuals, I'd say she did a spell to be invicible but she's paid a price -- like her natural magic is her collateral? Or her soul (but it wasn't white)? 

[MysteryGuest]

Just watched the episode a 2nd time, and actually liked it a bit better this time.  The witch sisters were still a bit over-the-top, but it didn't bother me as much this time around.  

I'm not sure what to make of Rowena.  I think her scenes with Sam in the car and at the end were genuine, even though admitting to such a weakness is not something she would ever want to do.  I have no idea what the repercussions of her spell will have, but I'm sure we'll find out.  

I loved Sam's expression when Dean first comes home and tells him he's in love.  I'm sure he thought he'd had a great burger somewhere, or a new kind of beer.  He definitely wasn't expecting him to say he was in love with a woman that he'd just met.  His expression changed immediately when he heard that, and he knew he was under a spell of some kind.

Sadly, I still don't like Asmodeus, and he was only in the opening flashback.  He's just creepy to me, and not in a "he's the King of Hell" kind of creepy.  He's just icky to me and his voice absolutely grates on my last nerve.  He does make Lucifer tolerable by comparison, so there is that.

As someone stated above, it won't be making any top 10 lists, but it certainly isn't the worst episode they've ever done.  It was a means to an end.