S03.E11: Nathaniel and I Are Just Friends!

[Yeah No]

12 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't inherently have a problem with white male characters but Rachel Bloom knows that if you're a white male, you're more likely to have a part on TV. You're more likely to have a name and a speaking role.  You're more likely to have a job and be shown working at that job.

So when she knows that and seemingly wants to break that pattern, it's disappointing when this happens:

When you're a white male, you get written for.  The fact that, after about 15 episodes, he's seen as having more depth than the Filipino male lead who has been here for 44 episodes, is kind of the "problem" in a nutshell. 

With Nathaniel, all the attempts haven't really succeeded with me so I end up analyzing what he represents more than how I feel about the character.  Because when it works, I know I have not been above getting sucked into the character arc even if part of me realizes the writers should have done better with their characters of color--and women.

I see your point and I agree with you that the other characters have not been written as seriously and we ideally would have expected this show to break that mold if it is to live up to what it purports to be.  I also kind of felt that the lack of backstory on Valencia's sudden relationship with a woman is to try to shock the audience with it, which it shouldn't be attempting to do if it's trying to make the relationship look believable and not like a "big deal".  So regrettably, it seems the show is not as progressive as it wants the audience to think it is.

[WhineandCheez]

Is this series canceled?  Why else would they speed it up 8 months in one week?????

[Irlandesa]

49 minutes ago, WhineandCheez said:

Is this series canceled?  Why else would they speed it up 8 months in one week?????

Probably because they wanted to skip all of Rebecca's therapy sessions and much of he pregnancy.  The value in jumping ahead is that you can put your characters in a new place for fresh stories. 

[smartymarty]

Disappointed to read so many negative comments about this episode. And while I understand the complaints, I have to say that this was one of the most entertaining episodes in a while. It was very funny -- the movie v. TV jokes, the break-up in supplies code, Sunil first not liking the "idiots," then having fun with them, White Josh's joke about tats for manatees. My only problem was the show seeming to want us to root for Rebecca and Nathaniel to be together, while forgetting that Nathaniel's been dating Mona all this time. It would have been such a great story if all those 8 months he had just been pining for Rebecca, wanting more than just the supply closet sex, but not pushing her. Instead I am torn over him because he's cheating on his girlfriend.

[DianeDobbler]

19 hours ago, Yeah No said:

When you're a white male, you get written for.  The fact that, after about 15 episodes, he's seen as having more depth than the Filipino male lead who has been here for 44 episodes, is kind of the "problem" in a nutshell. 

Hell, they're even backing up and "writing" (if that's the word for it) Josh with LESS depth than he had at the beginning. He's just a punch line at this point. I think Josh can serve his plot function - originally, he was the guy the undiagnosed, damaged Rebecca poured all of her obsessions into, whom she projected upon without it mattering what he was actually like - and also be the guy himself.  The guy himself was no brain trust, and was immature, but had a lot of heart and considerable talent. Now they give him "duh" lines and it's done. Other characters look blankly at him as if they can't believe anyone can be this stupid.

And as well, if Valencia is a character in her own right, then her succeeding in business, and finding a happy relationship should be dramatized, not illustrated. While "getting into" Nathaniel, they've actually made the writing for the others worse - it's not just that he gets more, the writing for the others is getting lowest common denominator.

Apologies to who brought this up (Yeah No?) but I agree that as talented as Pete Gardner may be in real life, it does not translate on CEG, and his off-camera status and personality is the only explanation I can come up with for all the material given a kind of ordinary, not that compelling, not that funny character (Darryl). So it IS two white guys getting the most writing apart from the show's female lead. For the life of me I've never understood either why this baby plot matters, why we should care. He's a fifty year old guy who seems to care most about the native American identity he appropriated. He barely gave a shit about acquiring the extra shares that would take the majority away from Nathaniel. And yet the focus should have been there, because we see him in the office all the time. We never see him parenting or see why he wants to be a dad so much. He TELLS us, which is a problem over all w/CEG in its back half. Even next week: 

Spoiler

seems lazy. The return of Trent. "Hey, remember those fun episodes where I blackmailed you into being my girlfriend? Let's do it again!" That's as lazy as the flash-back heavy way they "dramatized" Rebecca's obsession w/Nathaniel. The first time around. Rebecca was panicking, needing a boyfriend to cover up her pursuit of Josh. So it made complete sense. This time, it feels lazy and contrived.

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[lexiexx]

I always thought that the only reason Josh was such a one note character is because it emphasized how nuts Rebecca is, and how she was gaga over this simpleton with no real redeeming qualities.  It's been a while since I saw the early episodes but I don't ever remember Josh having a lot of heart or being talented.   They had nothing in common and the entire thing was forced because Rebecca is obsessed and loves the idea of being in love and not being alone.    Although I don't really see any of the characters on this show as having a lot of depth, maybe its just me.   Nathanial is more fleshed out because   he's the romantic interest that is someone who has some things in common with her, and she's supposedly trying to be in a better place and open to someone she likes for who they are and not to fulfill her crazy fantasies.    

Edited February 10, 2018 by lexiexx

[Blakeston]

I thought Paula's behavior at the office was indefensible.

If you convince a friend to come work for you, and he brings you good work that's in the wrong font, you say, "This was good overall, but you'll need to change the font." You don't throw it in the garbage, or remind him that he isn't in eighth grade mock trial.

No one's saying she shouldn't correct anyone's work, or point out stylistic mistakes. It's just that she should do it in a way that isn't over-the-top obnoxious. It's basic decency.

[DianeDobbler]

Sunil is a law student, he should know the font, number one, since the font is very important and super obvious in legal work, and number two, there is nobody on the planet thicker skinned than law students and lawyers. Work critique rolls off their back. IOW I think calling it "indefensible" is OTT. Rather than him doing her a favor, I think she did him a favor bringing him in. I don't know, maybe my work experience is tougher than others, but I just don't get how some think a professional environment is supposed to work. It's not always doled out with tact and consideration for the person's feelings. Often it cuts straight to the chase and a grown-up should handle it, particularly if the critique is correct. We were never told Paula was wrong.

The past couple of episodes have made me reconsider Naomi's point of view (Rebecca's mother). Naomi is a narcissist, still resentful that her daughter isn't the trophy daughter she wants. Her saving grace is she truly loves Rebecca, and when push comes to shove, she can step up, such as when against all expectations she bonded with and approved of Josh. However, I have always thought she was wrong to see Rebecca's behavior in the worst light - as manipulative and inconsiderate, when her daughter was, in fact, in deep trouble. The past couple of episodes have caused me to re-evaluate. Maybe Naomi has her number.

[AllyB]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

However, I have always thought she was wrong to see Rebecca's behavior in the worst light - as manipulative and inconsiderate, when her daughter was, in fact, in deep trouble. The past couple of episodes have caused me to re-evaluate. Maybe Naomi has her number.

Good insight. Naomi, I think, bears some of the responsibility for shaping Rebecca into the woman she is. But it's certainly possible that the Naomi we've seen is one who has also been shaped by Rebecca's worst behaviours. Rebecca is deeply manipulative and doesn't seem to stop at anything when it comes to getting her own way. It's more than possible that she has put Naomi through the ringer in the years before the series started. We've seen Rebecca's willingness to use her suicide attempt as a tool to manipulate George. So possibly she did the same to Naomi in the period following her first attempt.

[quangtran]

2 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Maybe Naomi has her number.

I don't buy that at all given scenes like this one.

Naomi: You're selfish and dramatic and weird. You drove your father out of this house. You're terrible!

Who talks like that to a nine year old? Did Naomi have her number back then as well? Her dad might be responsible for her abandonment issues, but her mother is completely responsible for her complete lack of self-worth. Rebecca was right about never been of help, because the only time Naomi gave her any kind of love and support was literally from the fear of death.

[possibilities]

Maybe it's both/and: Naomi and Rebecca are both highly dysfunctional and their relationship is an escalating spiral of bad behavior.

I am all for blunt, direct criticism and taking it like an adult. But I did think Paula's degree of contempt was a bit much. I admit I have become angry and disgusted with people who repeatedly fuck up important tasks after repeated instruction and don't seem to take it seriously. But they didn't show us any build up with that and Sunil (who has always been portrayed as competent, and in fact was specifically stated to be ranked #2 in the class after Paula), and with the rest of the staff they have TOLD us, but not really shown us, that they're incompetent. It's been treated like a joke and it's always seemed abusive to me that the staff is treated like worthless contemptible scum. But if we're meant to believe that everyone there is truly an idiot, then that's a structural problem and points to managerial incompetence more than anything else. If they're useless, and no one does anything about it over a long period of time, the place would be out of business by now and the people in charge are the ones to blame.

I think this is another place the show has failed recently. The pieces don't add up.

Either Paula is vicious for no reason, which is a trope and bad writing besides. Or she's not and the staff actually deserves her contempt. The show had that conversation with Sunil where she agreed she was at fault and so it looks like for now we're supposed to think she's the one who was wrong, and that it's growth for her to change her behavior.

Either the entire staff of the law firm is incompetent, then why are they still there and why is the place in business, or they aren't, and for 3 seasons Rebecca and Paula  have been insulting them like the show thinks it's hilarious.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Sunil is a law student, he should know the font, number one, since the font is very important and super obvious in legal work, and number two, there is nobody on the planet thicker skinned than law students and lawyers. Work critique rolls off their back. IOW I think calling it "indefensible" is OTT. Rather than him doing her a favor, I think she did him a favor bringing him in. I don't know, maybe my work experience is tougher than others, but I just don't get how some think a professional environment is supposed to work. It's not always doled out with tact and consideration for the person's feelings. Often it cuts straight to the chase and a grown-up should handle it, particularly if the critique is correct. We were never told Paula was wrong.

I agree, especially because if their law firm files something using the wrong font or incorrect margins, the judge isn't going to be any nicer when he or she throws it out for such a basic error, and the client isn't going to be any nicer when they find out that they lost on such a stupid technicality. The people who work at the firm are lawyers. They should know these things. The fact that Paula, who is NOT a lawyer, has to keep correcting mistakes of such an elementary nature shows how incompetent these lawyers are. She SHOULD be mad at them. If she hadn't caught their mistakes, their clients would have lost their cases, not because their cases didn't have merit, but because these idiot lawyers who they are paying hundreds of dollars per hour made really stupid mistakes. This case was recently in the news and it hinged on one comma (or the absence thereof). It resulted in the company having to pay $5 million in overtime to its employees. The law (originally written in 1995) has now been rewritten to include a semi-colon. It's obviously not the exact same situation, but the judge's decision shows that paying attention to little details like commas IS important in the law.

For non-lawyers, that's like having to tell your employees not to send emails to clients using poop emojis or curse words. Like it's THAT basic. No one should be surprised when they are reprimanded for doing something that everyone is supposed to know. If you took a three hour lunch and came back to work totally drunk, would you honestly be shocked and insulted when your boss told you that this is unacceptable?

Sure, Paula could have been nicer in the way she gave these corrections, but if your employee made a mistake that could have cost you a client if not for YOU catching this mistake, would you baby them and gently pointed out that maybe next time they could actually follow the standard guidelines?

Edited February 12, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's obviously not the exact same situation, but the judge's decision shows that paying attention to little details like commas IS important in the law.

#TeamSerialComma for life!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

56 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

#TeamSerialComma for life!

I’ll never give it up!

[possibilities]

I actually don't have a problem with Paula being a hardass for legitimate reasons if that's what the show is saying. But it looks to me like the show is saying she was at fault, and I am annoyed that the writing is writing it as though she's wrong,  and leaning into a "competent women are irrational bitches" trope they ought to be subverting, while simultaneously acting like she's the only competent person at a firm that's been in business effectively for quite some time. It doesn't add up. That's my complaint.

[Bruinsfan]

My read is that Darryl is actually a reasonably competent lawyer (with a boatload of personal insecurities), though not in Rebecca's league, and Nathan was initially presented as a corporate law shark. Mrs. Fernandez also seems capable at her job. Maybe it's just Maya, Tim, and Jim that are screw-ups? (And honestly I'd previously had the impression Jim was decent at the job but just annoying.)

[dubbel zout]

I see things as you do, @Bruinsfan. Is Darryl a real estate lawyer? I thought that was the reason he hired Rebecca (aside from plot necessities, of course)—he needed to fill that niche.

Maya, Tim, and Jim are secondary (tertiary?) characters. Sometimes that means they're capable, sometimes that means they're annoying. Whatever that particular story needs at the time.

[DianeDobbler]

As to whether they're decent lawyers or not, we've heard Nathaniel, Paula, Rebecca, even Sunil (who was playing both sides of the street in this episode) say the staff was incompetent. Some of it is a sitcom joke, I get it, but don't play it seriously when Paula steps up and addresses what the show has been telling us.  The story opened with two guys playing air hockey, blowing a piece of paper across the conference room by huffing and puffing it along. That doesn't say "professional." Not to mention the sorts of details Paula is talking about, which are as basic as electricboogaloo notes, mean that when the font is wrong, or when something is a zillion pages instead of concise, the staff isn't doing their job. They're being lazy, sloppy and careless. Half-assed. ITA with idea CEG was also trying to have it both ways in a knee-jerk way. Sometimes the writing for Paula really teeters on the that "middle-aged woman is a bitch" trope, and I really object. Initially she was seen as just sort of discouraged at both work and home. Remember the dialogue about "Honey, do we have any [whatever it was]?" and Paula saying, "I don't know, did you buy any?" That was her situation. But subsequently we've seen her husband really step up, while CEG has told us she's not cutting it at home or being a good mom. And then comes this office bitch nonsense, that, as possibilities notes, does not add up. So it feels lazy, and to me it's disturbing when a show whose brand is enlightenment and insight about this stuff knee jerks its way into that scenario with the Paula character. Particularly in the times we live in, to introduce that issue a bit, I don't think it's great to reinforce - oh let's make the heavier-set middle-aged lady the office bitch.

Edited February 16, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[STOPSHOUTING]

This episode makes no sense! Nathanial didn’t want to break up with Rebecca, was eager to be in a relationship with her and said, in so many words, that he was only seeing Mona to make her jealous. SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE BE STILL DATING HER 8 MONTHS LATER?

 

And couldn’t  help but notice during the reprise of Face Your Fears how much better the music used to be, too.

 

Why would Hector just be taking Heather’s constant abuse? Asked as someone who loves Heather (or did), but they’ve made her a monster, and It’s not Hector’s baby, nor did she even bother to consult him about being a surrogate, even though they are in a committed relationship and live together. He’s been dealing with this for eight months? Not even a saint ...

 

None of this makes any sense with the rest of the story they’ve been telling. Even if I don’t love the path they've been on this season,  not even being true to their own storytelling is super frustrating ...which is pretty much my entire feeling about this show so far this season.

Edited March 5, 2018 by STOPSHOUTING

[femmefan1946]

Tim, Maya and the other guy (whose name I cannot remember) have been shown to be complete idiots; I can't recall ever hearing of them producing good legal work. Now we have Sunil and Paula - did we know that they both actually graduated and became full-fledged attorneys?

 

Is Tim also the guy who was 'blackmailed ' by Rebecca because he was an illegal immigrant from Canada?

I don't think there was any problem with Maya's work just her personality.

As I remember it, when BIL was becoming a lawyer, after graduation he still had to intern (not the right term) for a year or so before being accepted at the Bar of Ontario. Is that also true of California?

[KaleyFirefly]

On 2/2/2018 at 11:06 PM, AmandaPanda said:

But first, Rebecca needs to love herself because she can let someone love her. That last scene between her and Dr. Akopian broke my heart. When she was talking about being afraid of herself and what she knows she can do when she's feeling abandoned, I was completely riveted. 

I related a bit too much to this. This show is my therapy!

Dog Josh pug was just too adorable!!

On 2/2/2018 at 11:27 PM, possibilities said:

They're leaning on EVERY TROPE with Heather's pregnancy, Paula's bitchiness, and ESPECIALLY Nathaniel. It's making me angry. It's like they decided all that feminism and subversive stuff was just silly, and only applied when Rebecca was off her meds and crazy. Now that she's getting healthy, she needs the rich white dirtbag with a heart of gold, and preggo bitches be crazy, and powerful women in the workplace don't know how to act becuz they're insecure and have no social or managerial skillz becuz all that lady empathy and common sense goes up in smoke if they think too much , I guess.

Vomit.

They also missed a chance to point out a very real and annoying double standard -- that if it had been a male boss telling them to make changes to their work, they would have accepted it, but Paula does it and she's "the bitch of the office." i.e., men who are like that are just being "take charge" and "assertive", women who are like that are called "bossy" and "bitchy."

[aradia22]

It started off great with the Maybe This Time number and Dr. Akopian as Audra McDonald as Billie Holiday in Lady Day at Emerson's Bar and Grill. Anyone? Anyone?

But then they did the time jump and I kind of hated it. It felt unnecessary except for the fact that they wrote themselves into a corner with Daryl and the baby and then trying to resolve that by suddenly making Heather the surrogate. I mean, I guess I prefer it to watching Heather be pregnant for however long it would be in show time but there was no development to Valencia suddenly being in a lesbian relationship and while the two Josh's seem to be in the same place, the time jump means things for the other characters. (Just to get it out of the way... super don't care about Sunil.) The pregnancy should have been an incredibly big deal for Heather and Hector and not just a throwaway joke. And having Rebecca and Nathaniel carry on their affair for 8 months, while he's cheating on Mona the whole time, makes them wildly unlikable and implies a lot more about their characters than if it was even just that week before the time jump. 

I mean, I was paranoid when Rebecca was injecting herself with hormones that she and Nathaniel would get pregnant. And I am glad they didn't do that since the pregnancy basically ruined The Mindy Project.

I really loved Rebecca's floral V-neck dress when she was in the kitchen area of the office.

I don't know if this episode was well-written or poorly-written but I had to delete part of my original comment. I was frustrated watching the episode that Rebecca wasn't realizing that there was another option. That she could be with Nathaniel AND work through her issues. Of course, it was annoying outside of the show as well because I feel like the writers don't really want to/know how to let her work through her issues without something to bounce off of. When given the opportunity (like Dr. Shin asking her to try volunteering) the writers side step those options. It's OK if they work better writing Rebecca as a bit more reactionary than proactive but not when they keep doing this will they/won't they with Nathaniel and Rebecca (or whatever guy is in the picture at the time). Also, I just really didn't like the affair thing in general. It tainted what had grown into a pretty sweet and tender relationship. Anyway, then Nathaniel did present her with the reasonable option of them giving it another shot and of course the writers side stepped it again. Sigh...

[aradia22]

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Oh look, the healthy, feminist thing is to get with the basic white male lead! Just get the courage to embrace your true feelings for the WASP leading man with the heart of gold! That's your healthy route! We've just flipped the entire script of the show!

Quote

I'm right there with you in the unpopular opinion. I don't care that Nathaniel is rich and white- their relationship and interaction feels very sincere to me.

 

I'm not inclined to be the most charitable towards straight white men (especially when you pile on details about Nathaniel's privileged backstory) but I don't think that's entirely fair. I don't think this is what the show set out to do all along. But I happen to think they lucked into Rachel and SMF having great chemistry. It's not like his background is entirely what he represents (in terms of his function as a character in Rebecca's story) or that he's a bland actor. Unlike Grayson in Drop Dead Diva or Daniel in Ugly Betty. 

Quote

I agree that Valencia is WRITTEN as a one or two note character when there is no reason for it. Why keep her? She was supposed to be a 2 episode character and the show made her a regular. All the characters are what is written for them. 

I feel like they like Gabrielle Ruiz but I don't think they planned to keep Valencia on the show and I don't think they're interested in her character. It reminds me of The Glee Project (which was all kinds of weird) but Ryan Murphy would make the contestants convince him they were interesting. The writers need to have some angle and I just think that they haven't found anything about Valencia that really interests them. So they just quickly gave her an out of the blue happy ending. By the way, I thought it was super weird how her current girlfriend was behaving during their first meeting when they were talking as client and event planner. I thought she was going to proposition her.

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He used a woman as a way to facilitate the low-strings attachment Rebecca was willing to have.

This is what bothered me about an 8 month time jump. Maybe I'm just optimistic but I when he made a face after asking Rebecca if she'd be OK with him bringing Mona, I started to think that maybe they had broken up a long time ago but that he'd been lying to Rebecca about it because he knew she was uncomfortable with having a real relationship. So he's only be bringing Mona to the baby shower as a friend and to trick Rebecca but then Rebecca would find out and they'd have a confrontation. But instead the show made them both awful for letting this other woman be part of their nonsense.

[aradia22]

Quote

When you're a white male, you get written for.  The fact that, after about 15 episodes, he's seen as having more depth than the Filipino male lead who has been here for 44 episodes, is kind of the "problem" in a nutshell. 

I've been struggling with my feelings on this one. I feel like the writing was better for Josh early on (in season 1 in particular) and then a lot of character assassination happened as the show made us see why she shouldn't be with Josh. But while the character was seen in a more positive light, when I think about it, I'm not sure if Vincent was actually required to do any intense acting or if I just remember him as being a better actor because the character was portrayed more favorably. Basically, I think that as he's been given more screen time, I've realized that Vincent is limited as an actor separate from Josh as a character. That's why Greg became more compelling even if I didn't think they should be together. Santino was just a much better actor. 

[Bruinsfan]

22 hours ago, aradia22 said:

t's not like his background is entirely what he represents (in terms of his function as a character in Rebecca's story) or that he's a bland actor. Unlike Grayson in Drop Dead Diva...

Oh man, you just reminded me. The Grayson actor was so very pretty and so very bereft of anything resembling charisma. They should have just had a big cardboard cutout of him in all his scene; they'd have gotten the same performance for a lot less money.