S11.E14: The Separation Triangulation

[Katy M]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 4:09 PM, CherryAmes said:

The girl was separated from her husband, he had moved out, she was free to enter into a new relationship if she chose and the show made it seem like she was cheating on her husband and that somehow the guy was the injured party. 

Hubby wanted to work on marriage and go to counselling.  

[BlossomCulp]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

On 1/19/2018 at 4:09 PM, CherryAmes said:

The girl was separated from her husband, he had moved out, she was free to enter into a new relationship if she chose and the show made it seem like she was cheating on her husband and that somehow the guy was the injured party. 

Hubby wanted to work on marriage and go to counselling.  

And she didn't.  Unless I missed something I didn't get the feeling from her that she was interested in working on her marriage.  IF she'd slept with Raj before her husband moved out I'd feel differently but as it is they've separated and while I don't disagree that she moved fast it was still her move to make.  She gets to decide when she's ready for a new relationship not her soon to be ex-husband.  And certainly not Raj!  A relationship with him yes, relationships in general, no.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, BlossomCulp said:

And she didn't.  Unless I missed something I didn't get the feeling from her that she was interested in working on her marriage.  IF she'd slept with Raj before her husband moved out I'd feel differently but as it is they've separated and while I don't disagree that she moved fast it was still her move to make.  She gets to decide when she's ready for a new relationship not her soon to be ex-husband.  And certainly not Raj!  A relationship with him yes, relationships in general, no.

Well, with all due respect, I disagree.  When you take vows "till death do you part" you make an agreement to at least take a stab at overcoming your problems if your partner wants to.  I don't think they even gave us a hint as to what their issues were, but unless he was beating her or cheating on her, she could have at least gone to a couple of counselling sessions with him before calling it quits.  And either way, it's not over until at the very least you have filed the divorce papers.

[BlossomCulp]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, with all due respect, I disagree.  When you take vows "till death do you part" you make an agreement to at least take a stab at overcoming your problems if your partner wants to.

To be fair not everyone makes those kinds of vows anymore and we really have no way of knowing anything about this couple or, as you point out, what led to the break up of the marriage.  In general I completely agree with you that a marriage is something you need to work on but we don't know (or did they say?) how long they had been married and how many issues may have come up already.  For all we know this was not the first time they separated.  Anyway my point is the decisions she makes are hers to make not the husband she has separated from and certainly not Raj's.  I guess I just found the whole thing irritating.  

[BlossomCulp]

On 1/19/2018 at 4:09 PM, CherryAmes said:

All to set things up so Raj and the husband connect?  I hate when this show veers into Two and a Half Men territory and this plot line stank of that.

That's the vibe I got from this show too.  The skanky wife cheating on her long suffering husband.  But the girl wasn't really presented as skanky so I dunno where the heck they were going with this whole storyline,

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, fan94 said:

ON JANUARY 18, 2018 AT 9:30 PM, SHAPESHIFTER SAID:

Evil Mode Sheldor

This was probably a typing-error, but seeing that it's his WoW (or something) alter ego, I'm laughing.

Glad someone was amused. It was intentional, and you totally got the reference right. :D

 

 

4 hours ago, axlmadonna said:

favorite exchange of the episode was this:

Raj: "Am I like the good guy in my movie or the bad guy in their movie?"
Bernadette: "Pretty sure you're the weird friend in our movie."

Yes. Back when I was writing essays, I figured it was good if I managed to come up with one witty, elegantly constructed line—but nobody was paying me.

[Winston Wolfe]

On 1/19/2018 at 10:48 PM, AnnaRose said:

I hope she and Raj used some serious birth control... otherwise it could get very messy if she suddenly discovers she's pregnant after her two week fling.

Messy, but would make a hella interesting story, even for a Lorre sitcom.  I could see them going down that road, if TPTB really wanted to shake the show out of its complacency.

[shapeshifter]

12 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

On January 19, 2018 at 9:48 PM, AnnaRose said:

I hope she and Raj used some serious birth control... otherwise it could get very messy if she suddenly discovers she's pregnant after her two week fling.

Messy, but would make a hella interesting story, even for a Lorre sitcom.  I could see them going down that road, if TPTB really wanted to shake the show out of its complacency.

Sounds like it could be the next Lorre spinoff, easily. It could even hearken back to Lorre's Dharma and Greg with the contrast of right wing firefighter v. left leaning academic.

Edited January 21, 2018 by shapeshifter

[wendyg]

Um...I don't think you could pay Lorre enough to revisit his days writing for MY TWO DADS.

[rmontro]

On 1/18/2018 at 9:07 PM, Frost said:

I guess I'm old fashioned but marriage vows actually mean something to me and her blithely moving on to someone else 13 days after kicking out her husband bothered me. 

I agree, besides they were only separated, not actually divorced.  I know marriage vows don't mean a lot to many people these days, but that is a major reason why people are reluctant or hesitant to get married.  The average age of a first marriage is going up and up, and it's even higher in Europe.

[Gothish520]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:52 AM, iMonrey said:

I rather liked this episode, primarily because it showed Raj in a much better light than usual. Granted, he's still tone-deaf when it comes to talking to women, telling his girlfriend she's lucky she'll "have a fella" either way, but he was surprisingly unselfish and considerate to the ex-husband. It was a rare instance where he didn't just come off looking like a total creep so that's a big improvement for him. 

It also tickled me to see Leonard so confounded by Sheldon's behavior. And I laughed at the Godzilla/Tokyo joke when he came back and Penny had Googled it and found out there was an Arby's in Japan. LOL.

I loved the way Penny said Ok-i-nawa and had that look on her face like "who knew?".

[Gothish520]

23 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, with all due respect, I disagree.  When you take vows "till death do you part" you make an agreement to at least take a stab at overcoming your problems if your partner wants to.  I don't think they even gave us a hint as to what their issues were, but unless he was beating her or cheating on her, she could have at least gone to a couple of counselling sessions with him before calling it quits.  And either way, it's not over until at the very least you have filed the divorce papers.

Lots of people don't use "till death do us part" in their wedding vows. I didn't.

As for her behavior, I think it depends on the situation. If they had been separated before or had been having problems for a long time and she had finally had it, then I don't see too much of a problem. But seeing as how we don't know the whole story, plus she agreed to work on the marriage by the end of the episode, I'm thinking she was awfully quick to jump in bed with someone else. But that's just an opinion. If you are separated, you are free to do what you want, but your spouse is certainly free to take issue.

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Lots of people don't use "till death do us part" in their wedding vows. I didn't.

You don't have to answer, but I'm kind of curious what the point is then?

 

24 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

If you are separated, you are free to do what you want, but your spouse is certainly free to take issue.

Technically, if you're married you are free to do what you want to, but you spouse can take issue.  There are no adultery laws on the books any more, I don't think.

But, I really think she should have told Raj that she was still married BEFORE they had sex.  Of course, that's partly on Raj, too.

[CherryAmes]

10 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Messy, but would make a hella interesting story, even for a Lorre sitcom.  I could see them going down that road, if TPTB really wanted to shake the show out of its complacency.

Lorre already did this on Two and a Half Men.  Alan has a brief fling with his ex-wife when she and her current husband separate.  Surprise, surprise about 9 months later she has a baby who, the running joke is, looks exactly like Alan.  I doubt they'll go there on BBT, I'd be surprised if those characters every show up again.  That said who knows!

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

You don't have to answer, but I'm kind of curious what the point is then?

I'm pledging my love and fidelity to a man I want to make an emotional and legal commitment to. My wedding was not religious; we were married by my closest female cousin, a Justice of the Peace. In this day, saying "till death do us part"" doesn't make much sense at all, as we know that marriages fail all the time, whether such a pledge was made or not. It just seems very antiquated, as does saying one will "obey" one's husband.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Gothish520

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

saying "till death do us part"" doesn't make much sense at all, as we know that marriages fail all the time, whether such a pledge was made or not. 

If you don't plan on staying together, why get married?  Why not just "go steady" until which time the relationship fails?

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

If you don't plan on staying together, why get married?  Why not just "go steady" until which time the relationship fails?

Of course we plan on staying together! I'm sure most people who get married plan on it! But saying "till death do us part" isn't going to make it happen. History certainly proves that. I'm surprised this is such an issue for people - not all wedding ceremonies follow the same script. 

And whether Nell and Oliver said those words or not, they were separated. My sister's ex-husband began dating his current wife two months after she moved out, and before the divorce papers were filed.

[ForReal]

10 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

But saying "till death do us part" isn't going to make it happen.

There are *no* words that guarantee staying together will happen, so you are right, the wedding script can say anything that has meaning to the people involved.

I had a friend whose husband moved in with his girlfriend a few months before the divorce was final and wanted to take the kids on a vacation. She very strongly felt that he should wait until the divorce was final before bringing the kids and the new girlfriend together. I respected her feelings on the subject, but I kinda wondered what difference it made since the marriage was definitely over and the new girlfriend was definitely established and the divorce was definitely happening.

That said, in this episode, it felt like the woman hadn't really taken the time to let her marriage die (given that her husband was still so engaged in it and that she changed her mind fairly quickly). Yes, she is free to make whatever choices she wants in regards to behavior, and we are free to have whatever opinions we choose regarding her choices.

[Gothish520]

27 minutes ago, ForReal said:

There are *no* words that guarantee staying together will happen, so you are right, the wedding script can say anything that has meaning to the people involved.

I had a friend whose husband moved in with his girlfriend a few months before the divorce was final and wanted to take the kids on a vacation. She very strongly felt that he should wait until the divorce was final before bringing the kids and the new girlfriend together. I respected her feelings on the subject, but I kinda wondered what difference it made since the marriage was definitely over and the new girlfriend was definitely established and the divorce was definitely happening.

That said, in this episode, it felt like the woman hadn't really taken the time to let her marriage die (given that her husband was still so engaged in it and that she changed her mind fairly quickly). Yes, she is free to make whatever choices she wants in regards to behavior, and we are free to have whatever opinions we choose regarding her choices.

I agree and I'm not saying she was 100% right by any means. Her behavior would give most people pause. I was just responding to the comments by some who said that pledging "till death do us part" should or would have some bearing on whether one chooses to start dating before the divorce papers are signed. If the marriage is over, it's over. But in this situation, it seemed it was too soon, because they did agree to try to work on their marriage.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Gothish520

[rmontro]

25 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I was just responding to the comments by some who said that pledging "till death do us part" should or would have some bearing on whether one chooses to start dating before the divorce papers are signed. If the marriage is over, it's over. But in this situation, it seemed it was too soon, because they did agree to try to work on their marriage.

I think the original point was whether or not being separated for two weeks and going out and having sex with someone would constitute cheating.  Even Raj was taken aback.  It's true there are no words that will guarantee the marriage staying together, but this shows how little respect people have for the institution these days, and that contributes to it being seen as a temporary arrangement. 

[Gothish520]

6 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I think the original point was whether or not being separated for two weeks and going out and having sex with someone would constitute cheating.  Even Raj was taken aback.  It's true there are no words that will guarantee the marriage staying together, but this shows how little respect people have for the institution these days, and that contributes to it being seen as a temporary arrangement. 

I think before "no fault" divorce it definitely would have been an issue, probably actionable in court. Back in the day when you had to provide a good reason to get a divorce, people had to be careful. Now though, nah...morally questionable to some, but I don't think a court would care. And if you aren't together as a couple, it's not cheating (we were on a break!).

Edited January 22, 2018 by Gothish520

[msani19]

Raj didn’t expect her to be separated when they hooked up, especially someone separated for only two weeks. I can’t fault him for not asking her “oh by the way, are you technically still married before we have sex”. I agree that he was taken aback, I would have been too. She is still married until the divorce says otherwise. I find it distasteful when separated people are already dating but it's their life and I'm not getting involved with a separated man. In some (maybe all, I don't know for sure, even though Google is a click away, I'm not checking :-)) don't people need to be separated for a certain amount of time before they can file? I'm sure that my friend had to wait a year (in PA) before she and her ex-husband filed for divorce, even though in that year he found a new girlfriend. She waited but she had primary custody of 4 kids so dating is a little more difficult. 

For once I gave Raj a break, him bonding with the ex, sure ok. 

[CherryAmes]

1 minute ago, msani19 said:

For once I gave Raj a break, him bonding with the ex, sure ok. 

I found it a little confusing.  Does Raj want sex, and ideally a relationship with a woman or does he want another guy friend?  I wondered if this was yet another "cute" little suggestion that Raj is actually gay.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, msani19 said:

don't know for sure, even though Google is a click away, I'm not checking :-)) don't people need to be separated for a certain amount of time before they can file? I'm sure that my friend had to wait a year (in PA) before she and her ex-husband filed for divorce, even though in that year he found a new girlfriend. She waited but she had primary custody of 4 kids so dating is a little more difficult. 

I'm also not going to check, but I think most states make you wait longer/do more stuff if there are children involved.   I don't think there were any indications of kids in this couple.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

I found it a little confusing.  Does Raj want sex, and ideally a relationship with a woman or does he want another guy friend?  I wondered if this was yet another "cute" little suggestion that Raj is actually gay.

Good point, they've been playing this for laughs for years.  I really am wondering if that is the end game that they are planning for Raj, that he realizes he is gay, and maybe even will find a partner.  I find it a little hard to believe that he would not have figured that out by his age, but what do I know?

[wknt3]

On 1/22/2018 at 4:17 PM, rmontro said:

Good point, they've been playing this for laughs for years.  I really am wondering if that is the end game that they are planning for Raj, that he realizes he is gay, and maybe even will find a partner.  I find it a little hard to believe that he would not have figured that out by his age, but what do I know?

I'm pretty sure this was just what it looked like. Two lonely guys with boundary issues brought together by their relationship with the same woman and bonding. It's not supposed to set up anything or be taken at anything but face value. They will never go in this direction precisely because of all the jokes they've done about it. Think about how many of those jokes become kind of icky if it turns out he was repressing his sexuality all the time and how it changes his parents/Howard's mom from being reactionary to being right. They would never do anything that would hurt the experiences of watching the reruns since that is what brings in the tractor trailers full of money and probably will for at least a decade after they go off the air. There are other factors involved like they've pretty clearly established that Raj is desperate for acceptance and companionship of any kind from both men and women, but is clearly attracted to women physically, but WB/CBS would never let them do anything that would potentially make watching the repeats unpleasant. It would be like if they finally diagnosed Sheldon with autism spectrum disorder in the final season - suddenly all the jokes become darker and even unpleasant and no matter how much they've hinted at it or joked about it previously they will simply never go there.

Edited January 24, 2018 by wknt3

[rmontro]

11 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

There are other factors involved like they've pretty clearly established that Raj is desperate for acceptance and companionship of any kind from both men and women, but is clearly attracted to women physically, but WB/CBS would never let them do anything that would potentially make watching the repeats unpleasant.

I don't really agree that making Raj gay destroys the enjoyment of the reruns.  But I do agree that they've established that he is physically attracted to women.  That would suggest he is bisexual at most.  If he is gay, then there is a subconscious reason for all those relationships not working out.  I'm not predicting that they make him gay, but it wouldn't shock me if they did.

[Bort]

Please take the discussion of Raj's sexuality to his thread. The subject is not germane to the events of this episode.

[hnygrl]

Boring boring boring....

Raj bonding with the husband of the lady he hooked up with that one (or two) time(s) is typical Raj.

He's a nurturer, a  fixer. It's in his nature to want to fix whatever is mentally broken in someone's life so I'm not mad at him for bonding with the ex. He didn't know the gal was married and when he found out he couldn't bring himself to hook up with her again (his penis has morals? the hell?)

The Sheldon/Leonard thing is basically all Leonard's fault. Sheldon TRIED being the good guy. he TRIED being a good tenant. Not making noise, not making mess. Basically they never knew if he was there or not.

It's insane idiot LEONARD who....what...? I still don't get what Leonard's problem was. He's getting PAID to rent out the room. The guy is super-quiet, doesn't use the toilet or eat the food...what's his deal? He LIKES it when Sheldon's an overbearing prick? Really? I think Sheldon knew his friend better than he knew himself, so he drew up the cartoonishly clownish agreement specifically for when Leonard lost his marbles and "tried him."

It says something about a show when I'm just now watching it when it was on last week... 

Although it does make me feel better than Sheldon's back with his "wife" (string theory). I never liked that he dropped a literal lifelong obsession just like *that.* Not in his character.

[Meushell]

The Sheldon plot was such a huge step backward. He is once again an ass, and Leonard and Penny just take it. I just hate Sheldon at this point. I’ve gone back and forth on him for years, but mostly, I want to see him suffer. I feel ready to give up on this show. 

On 1/19/2018 at 1:09 PM, CherryAmes said:

Thank you.  This is exactly what bothered me about this episode.  The girl was separated from her husband, he had moved out, she was free to enter into a new relationship if she chose and the show made it seem like she was cheating on her husband and that somehow the guy was the injured party.  All to set things up so Raj and the husband connect?  I hate when this show veers into Two and a Half Men territory and this plot line stank of that.

My issue was the way she handled it. She wasn’t honest from the start, and she got angry at Raj for not wanting to just blindly keep sleeping with her. Raj spending time with her husband was strange, but it was her husband who sought him out. He’s also to blame for that weirdness. That she went right back to her husband after shows that Raj was right to be concerned.

This is assuming the husband doesn’t have a creepy abusive hold on her. The plot with Leonard taking Sheldon’s crap makes me wonder.

[Gothish520]

25 minutes ago, Meushell said:

The Sheldon plot was such a huge step backward. He is once again an ass, and Leonard and Penny just take it. I just hate Sheldon at this point. I’ve gone back and forth on him for years, but mostly, I want to see him suffer. I feel ready to give up on this show. 

The whole point of this episode was that Sheldon was not an ass until the very end, when Leonard went looking for trouble. Leonard missed the old Sheldon. This time it was his issue, not Sheldon's.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Gothish520

[Meushell]

5 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

The whole point of this episode was that Sheldon was not an ass until the very end, when Leonard went looking for trouble. Leonard missed the old Sheldon. This time it was his issue, not Sheldon's.

Leonard’s issue was he thought Sheldon had been intentionally being rude for years. Instead, Sheldon basically set him up, and somehow forced a new contract on him, which was ridiculous. Leonard being happier that he’s being treated badly (being expected to fetch sparkling lemon water, and actually going to do so) was not funny to me. It was creepy to see just how under Sheldon’s thumb he really is. 

[CherryAmes]

11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

The whole point of this episode was that Sheldon was not an ass until the very end, when Leonard went looking for trouble. Leonard missed the old Sheldon. This time it was his issue, not Sheldon's.

I agree it was Leonard's issue but I think the point was that Sheldon had not really changed at all.  Sooner or later he would have brought out that agreement whether Leonard prompted him or not.  I think, and I can understand this, that Leonard wasn't glad that Sheldon was being Sheldon after all, he was glad that Sheldon had never stopped being Sheldon!  The idea that Sheldon's could have been a different person all along but deliberately chose not to be was what was galling.

[stan4]

On 1/21/2018 at 5:40 PM, Katy M said:

Y

But, I really think she should have told Raj that she was still married BEFORE they had sex.  Of course, that's partly on Raj, too.

She should have told Raj, but I don't see why he had a responsibility (or even any inkling) to ask.  Once he KNEW, though, I think he should have broke it off.

[lorbeer]

On 20.01.2018 at 10:09 PM, axlmadonna said:

If you and your spouse are that far gone, just get the divorce and then move on. And this show must agree with me on that, because it didn't take much to get the couple back together, so yeah... it was definitely cheating on her part, even though the husband had moved out.

 

I don't how about US but in my country you have to go through separation FIRST before you can actually divorce. And that's the law... you can't one day decide to divorce and the next day be divorced. So if it's similar there you can't really know when excactly the couple was "so far gone"... Personally I would be heartbroken if my once loved one move on so quickly... But if she never trully loved him then I'm not surprised - and maybe that's the case.

[axlmadonna]

Right... and there is a very good reason for that rule... because most couples get back together after being seperated, rather than divorce (and that's exactly what happened in this episode). Marriage is intended to be a stable institution, not to be taken lightly. If you get a divorce, you should be sure that it's what you really want, and is what's best for your family. That's why treating it lightly, as was done in this case, is offensive rather than humorous. There is an option for people who have been recently married, and find that they regret it or that the love isn't really there, and it's called annulment. That does not require separation, and is not the lengthy process of divorce. But that would not apply in the case of the two portrated on the show, because they had been married for years and were even discussing children.

[LoneHaranguer]

On 1/27/2018 at 5:04 AM, Meushell said:

Leonard being happier that he’s being treated badly (being expected to fetch sparkling lemon water, and actually going to do so) was not funny to me. It was creepy to see just how under Sheldon’s thumb he really is.

In a weird way, is Sheldon taking the place of Beverly?

[shapeshifter]

On January 29, 2018 at 9:47 AM, lorbeer said:

don't how about US but in my country you have to go through separation FIRST before you can actually divorce. And that's the law...

 

On January 29, 2018 at 9:59 AM, axlmadonna said:

most couples get back together after being separated 

Both of these^^ posts finally explain to me why there are so many different interpretations of this episode. In the US, not only does a couple not need to separate legally prior to divorce, but there is also "no fault" divorce, or, as in my case in California in 1992, the reason of "irreconcilable differences," which can mean, as the judge explained, "He wants to divorce and you don't." Also, I haven't looked up current statistics, but back when I was separated, I really did expect to be reconciled and was surprised when a pastor—whose knowledge and people skills I respected—stated that most separations end in divorce.

So nothing in the episode surprised me, but now I can see how viewers from other backgrounds and cultures might have been really confused or nonplussed.