Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[Camera One]

Speaking of time, have they explained how Zelena is in the approximate age range of Regina, in spite of the curse? She wasn't in Storybrooke, since she was back in the Enchanted Forest when they returned.

Adam answered that on Twitter or an interview. Apparently, Zelena made her own dome like Cora did.

[YaddaYadda]

Adam answered that on Twitter or an interview. Apparently, Zelena made her own dome like Cora did.

Those Mills women! One casts the curse, the two others make protective domes. 

[KingOfHearts]

Why did Zelena never attempt to contact Cora or Regina? She doesn't seem like someone who would sit back quietly and wait to strike. Not only did she until the curse was cast, but it doesn't seem she arrived in the Enchanted Forest until after Cora and Team Princess arrived in Storybrooke. My impression in 3B was that Zelena had just recently took residence in Knifington Palace.

 

It has weirded me out for quite some time. In 3B, a twisted sister comes out of nowhere that no one has heard of. She's just so incredibly contrived. Ingrid and Pan were introduced into the fabric a little better. At least we knew Rumple had a dad and Ingrid had some sort of prophecy she was waiting for.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[snarkastic]

Speaking of time, have they explained how Zelena is in the approximate age range of Regina, in spite of the curse? She wasn't in Storybrooke, since she was back in the Enchanted Forest when they returned. Was she in the Coradome? But then even if they were just frozen instead of Groundhog Daying in there, she still would have had nearly a year between when time started moving again and when Cora and Hook headed for Storybrooke when she could have directly confronted her mother (and campaigned for favorite daughter, given that Regina put out a hit on Cora). Does time work differently in Oz? Does the pendant stop aging? Does being green have anti-aging properties? At least they came up with the dragonbaby eggshell anti-aging magic for Cruella and Ursula, but I don't recall any explanation for Zelena.

 

 

Adam answered that on Twitter or an interview. Apparently, Zelena made her own dome like Cora did.

 

I don't know why A&E didn't just go with 'time stopped in ALL magical realms during the curse' and the Cora!Dome was just protection from being pulled to Storybrooke. Because while it's a bit of a stretch, but plausible, to say Zelena knew exactly when the curse was coming to put up her own dome, it makes zero sense that Wonderland and Alice's London were seemingly frozen in time as well. Or is Zelena that magnanimous to have domed other realms, too.

[KingOfHearts]

 

don't know why A&E didn't just go with 'time stopped in ALL magical realms during the curse' and the Cora!Dome was just protection from being pulled to Storybrooke.

That was always my assessment. These writers love to give weird answers for continuity. "That's not the Holy Grail... it's a Titan's Heart!" and "Zelena cast a second dome!" are unnecessarily contrived. Saying time stood still in all magical realms fixes a lot of timeline issues. I don't know why they can't just go with that.

 

 

If Zelena couldn't be Rumple's #1, wouldn't she have wanted to take the opportunity to replace Regina as Cora's favorite daughter? Regina banished Cora, so that would have been prime opportunity for Zelena to swoop in and say, "Hey, mom, remember me? Regina's not cooperating with you, but look at me! I'm more powerful than she is, so you and I could rule the world together and be unstoppable! I can be the daughter you really wanted!" (Though obviously this didn't happen because Zelena didn't exist while Cora was alive.)

Maybe that did happen in a future retcon. If Cora could meet-up with Regina, I don't see why she couldn't have met up with Zelena.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

And yet Arendelle apparently wasn't affected by the curse at all because it was literally frozen during that time.

 

I find it odd that Zelena apparently never tracked Cora down to confront her or show off to her. She could travel between realms, so couldn't she have gone to Wonderland? And why not get to her after the curse but before Cora left? If Zelena couldn't be Rumple's #1, wouldn't she have wanted to take the opportunity to replace Regina as Cora's favorite daughter? Regina banished Cora, so that would have been prime opportunity for Zelena to swoop in and say, "Hey, mom, remember me? Regina's not cooperating with you, but look at me! I'm more powerful than she is, so you and I could rule the world together and be unstoppable! I can be the daughter you really wanted!" (Though obviously this didn't happen because Zelena didn't exist while Cora was alive.)

[Camera One]

Originally, they made it seem like being banished to Wonderland was a huge big thing you could never recover from.  But apparently, realm hopping is no more difficult than jumping on the subway, so for sure Zelena should have been able to go to Wonderland, especially with her magic slippers.  Since her crystal ball apparently tells her everything in the past and the present, she should know where Regina sent Cora.  But then again, we had Regina crowing over the fact that she sent Zelena to Oz in the 5A finale when Zelena could probably take the next Flying Monkey back and arrive in time for dinner, but whatever...

Edited March 3, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Everyone's favorite episode, "Heart of Gold" showed us that there is actually a permanent door between Oz and the Enchanted Forest, so Zelena not finding her mother seems pretty lame. We know Cora visited the Enchanted Forest from Wonderland at least twice - once to hook up Regina with the hot Sheriff of Nottingham and then again to kidnap Henry. It can't be that difficult to travel between the realms. And that's ignoring Zelena's realm hopping slippers.

[KingOfHearts]

I believe the permanent door is tied to Jefferson's room with all the other doors. But I'm wondering if there were alternatives to the hat since Will was able to get to Oz his own way.

[KingOfHearts]

Noticed a couple things concerning the wardrobe in the Pilot. For one, there was no way Snow could have fit into it. Secondly, wasn't Snow so far along in her pregnancy that unborn Emma would have counted as a second person anyway?

Edited March 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

If Regina could shrink her father, then why did she need a Wonderland mushroom to make him big again? Do her powers only work one way?

[Curio]

If Regina could shrink her father, then why did she need a Wonderland mushroom to make him big again? Do her powers only work one way?

 

Like Merlin's Half-Dark/Half-Light Wand, maybe all Regina needs to do to conjure difficult magic is to just "believe in herself." But only when it's plot-convenient, of course.

[InsertWordHere]

The 100th episode gave us a clearer picture of where Hat Trick is in the timeline, now that we know that Henry didn't go to Wonderland until after Snow and Charming were engaged and fighting to take back the kingdom (offscreen). Hat Trick has always been kind of hard to place in the timeline because we never knew when exactly Henry was taken to Wonderland and how long he was there. It must not have been for very long, as he is present in The Cricket Game when Regina is almost executed. I'd place both Souls of the Departed and Hat Trick somewhere between Lost Girl (because Charming seemed to be getting along with the dwarves in the recent episode and he wasn't in Lost Girl) and The Cricket Game. Jefferson sure was a productive Mad Hatter. He made a whole warehouse full of hats in about two years.

[legaleagle53]

InsertWordHere, on 07 Mar 2016 - 11:49 PM, said:

The 100th episode gave us a clearer picture of where Hat Trick is in the timeline, now that we know that Henry didn't go to Wonderland until after Snow and Charming were engaged and fighting to take back the kingdom (offscreen). Hat Trick has always been kind of hard to place in the timeline because we never knew when exactly Henry was taken to Wonderland and how long he was there. It must not have been for very long, as he is present in The Cricket Game when Regina is almost executed. I'd place both Souls of the Departed and Hat Trick somewhere between Lost Girl (because Charming seemed to be getting along with the dwarves in the recent episode and he wasn't in Lost Girl) and The Cricket Game. Jefferson sure was a productive Mad Hatter. He made a whole warehouse full of hats in about two years.

 

Well, it's not as though he had anything better to do.  It was his only way of getting home to Gracie after Regina stranded him and Cora punished him by turning her back on him.

[InsertWordHere]

Well, it's not as though he had anything better to do.  It was his only way of getting home to Gracie after Regina stranded him and Cora punished him by turning her back on him.

This episode makes Regina's actions in Hat Trick even worse, IMO, now that we know she's the one who put her father in the box in the first place, all to teach him a lesson for saving Snow White. Maybe your dad wouldn't have been so easy to steal if you hadn't miniaturized him, Regina!

[Camera One]

Why are some people kept underground, while other people are "living" lives and doing jobs in Underbrooke?  

 

Why isn't Hades doing more to stop the intruders to his "kingdom"?  Why not immediately write 3 of their names on the tombstone to make up for Henry Sr., Meg and Hercules?

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not sure why Hades doesn't just get rid of the Nevengers. You'd think being a god would come with perks like instant banishment of your foes.

[legaleagle53]

I'm not sure why Hades doesn't just get rid of the Nevengers. You'd think being a god would come with perks like instant banishment of your foes.

 

Because even Hades has his limits.  He's still subordinate to his little brother Zeus, who is the King over all the gods and can overrule Hades at any time.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm not sure why Hades doesn't just get rid of the Nevengers. You'd think being a god would come with perks like instant banishment of your foes.

Maybe he has his very own limitations since he is making a deal with Rumple in the promo?

 

Because of course Rumple is more powerful than a God!

[Camera One]

If he has limitations, they need to explain them up-front so the character doesn't seem like a complete idiot.

[Writing Wrongs]

Can someone explain to me why Emma thinks splitting her heart will help Hook? The reason Snow and David did it is because she needed to crush a heart for the Dark Curse enactment. I don't see how that fits Emma and Hook's situation. I'm really confused.

[YaddaYadda]

I think they were just explaining how Emma felt about Hook, and the lengths she's willing to go to in order to get him back.

[Rumsy4]

"Your questions are pointless." 

[Camera One]

LOL, that should be the new tagline of this show.

[Writing Wrongs]

But she keeps saying it like it's a solution to Hook being in The Underworld. Which makes no sense.

[Shanna Marie]

The only thing I can think is that they're treating the heart like the seat of the soul, and one heart equals one soul, but if she splits her heart/soul with Hook, it still counts as one soul coming back even if it's in two people. Though I'm not sure how that works if his physical body is still in Storybrooke and what we're seeing now is some sort of physical manifestation of his soul. How is she going to stick half her heart into a spirit?

[Curio]

"I have my reasons, and I don't have to share them with you." — Hades Adam & Eddy

[Rumsy4]

The heart splitting probably won't happen until they're back in Storybrooke. If it even happens, that is. The solution will probably be some "twist" they pull out of thin air.

[Shanna Marie]

But if Emma was going to split her heart in Storybrooke, then why the trip to the Underworld? And she talked about the heart splitting as the way she was going to get Hook out of the Underworld.

 

Basically, I don't think Emma (or the writers) actually knows. That was her handwavy plan to justify the trip, and she'll just figure it out when she gets to the point it's necessary. The heart splitting was her inspiration, but it'll probably end up being something else that gets him out.

 

It seems to me that there are multiple issues in reviving Hook. There's the fact that his body was mortally wounded and has a wound that can't be healed. So even if they do something to stick a heart in him or a soul in him, his body is not currently viable. Not to mention that unless they've taken measures, his body is decomposing. If they did a preservation spell on him, maybe that should have been mentioned. Otherwise, he's in a fridge in the morgue or in a casket. Then there's getting his soul out of the Underworld. And getting his soul back into his body. And somehow reviving his body. And healing it. I don't think a split heart is going to be enough to do the trick. His heart wasn't his problem. His problem is that in addition to being stabbed through the gut (though that one looked like some kind of magical wound rather than a physical one), he bled out from a cut on his neck that I guess nicked the carotid artery. So in addition to healing him, he's going to need a transfusion.

[Camera One]

The Pen will likely come into play now that it's back in the court.   Maybe Henry can use it to write Hook a new soul.

 

Why would the Apprentice let Henry break the pen if it would fall into the Underworld where freak'in Hades resides.  Why did Merlin create the Pen and the Author again?  Oh right, we never found out!  

Edited March 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Why did Merlin create the Pen and the Author again?

What if Merlin didn't create the Pen, but only took advantage of it? I'm wondering if there's a sentient being trapped inside of it.

Edited March 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

What if Merlin didn't create the Pen, but only took advantage of it? I'm wondering if there's a sentient being trapped inside of it.

 

So, is there a Dark Spot in Henry's heart because he... uh, murdered a pen?

[KingOfHearts]

 

So, is there a Dark Spot in Henry's heart because he... uh, murdered a pen?

Well if a pen can go to the Underworld, I'm not sure this show has any limit on ridiculousness. 

[Camera One]

Was there a mill in Storybrooke? 

[YaddaYadda]

But she keeps saying it like it's a solution to Hook being in The Underworld. Which makes no sense.

I don't think she doesn't know that it might not be an option. 

 

From the word go, they've treated this mission as something that's in and out of the UW. Two episodes in, and they haven't even found him yet. So it may not be as easy to bring him back as she might think it is. We're not even in the thick of it yet either.

Edited March 15, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[MaiLuna]

Did the healer keep himself young? Because weren't Milah and Cora at least a century apart?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Did the healer keep himself young? Because weren't Milah and Cora at least a century apart?

I can't figure out the timeline at this second, but I don't believe they're a whole century apart. (Could be wrong.) If anything, maybe the healer had potions to keep himself young? That stands to reason, I suppose.

[Mari]

I wondered if the purpose of the baby was life-extension. Maybe, if you have few moral worries, you can move the baby's life onto yourself?

[InsertWordHere]

I can't figure out the timeline at this second, but I don't believe they're a whole century apart. (Could be wrong.) If anything, maybe the healer had potions to keep himself young? That stands to reason, I suppose.

I don't think they are either. Cora's around 60-70 years old not including the 28 years of Cora dome, right? So she was born around the Enchanted Forest's equivalent to 1920. Baelfire was 14 in London in the late 19th century/possibly very early 20th century. This lines up with unbelievable sleeping curse survivor Papa!Hook telling Hook in 1983 that it's been nearly a century since he left his sons. So, assuming there wasn't time travel involved when Bae traveled to our world (and I've always thought it would be much easier if there wasn't), and Cora was around 25ish when she was with Rumple, it's closer to 50-70 years between Rumple's meetings with Fendrake, not 100. Still long enough for healer guy to need some of anti-aging magic though. Longer than Cruella and Ursula were in our world not aging, but at least this guy had magic and was possibly using babies to stay young so it's a little more believable. 

 

*Disclaimer: I am using some very fuzzy math here, but in my defense, so is the show.

[Mari]

*Disclaimer: I am using some very fuzzy math here, but in my defense, so is the show.

Math is for the weak. OUaT refuses to be caged by something as futile as math. (Or our writers didn't usually pass it.)

[Curio]

For those of you who like to watch things in chronological order, it's rather interesting watching the events of the Killian/Milah/Rumple drama unfold in real time.

 

1. Killian and Milah meet for the first time in the tavern.
2. Rumple meets Killian for the first time in the tavern at a later date when he goes looking for Milah.
3. Killian urges Rumple to fight for Milah.
4. Drunk Killian runs into newly Darkened One Rumple in an alley.
5. Killian meets Dark One Rumple for a duel.
6. Milah shows up just in time.
7. Dark One Rumple kills Milah and chops off Killian's hand.

 

I think we can officially say it's canon that Killian was playing up a lot of the pirate threats in the third clip when Rumple begs to have Milah back. There's also a brand new context to the way Dark One Rumple sneers at Milah in the seventh clip, "Seems like you finally found a family… You could never have with me." Without knowing about the flashback in Devil's Due, we'd just assume Rumple was mocking Milah for leaving him. But we now have the added insult Rumple slides in there because he's also rubbing it in that he sold out their second child, the family you could never have with me.

 

I wish I had some HD quality clips of these events so I could compile them all into one long video.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

"Seems like you finally found a family… You could never have with me." Without knowing about the flashback in Devil's Due, we'd just assume Rumple was mocking Milah for leaving him. But we now have the added insult Rumple slides in there because he's also rubbing it in that he sold out their second child, the family you could never have with me.

 

I'm not confident that the writers had the events of "Devil's Due" in mind when they wrote that scene... though of course they will insist they did if you ask them now.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

I'm not confident that the writers had the events of "Devil's Due" in mind when they wrote that scene... though of course they will insist they did if you ask them now.

 

Oh, they definitely didn't know about "Devil's Due" when they wrote "The Crocodile." I'm just saying it could be interpreted that way now if you look back on it, and maybe Jane even re-watched the older episode to make sure things like that would fit.

[KingOfHearts]

Math is for the weak. OUaT refuses to be caged by something as futile as math. (Or our writers didn't usually pass it.)

Rumple: "Your equations are pointless."

[Shanna Marie]

Another thing that takes on a lot of new shading based on the new flashbacks is Rumple's refusal to move to a new town when Milah wanted to start over. Now that looks like it truly was the last straw. He took away her option to have another child, and now he's further constraining her life by not letting her move on to another place, and meanwhile, she has those first hints of adventure from that pirate she met swirling around in her brain.

[KingOfHearts]

Killian telling her about other lands must have been what got her to want to move so badly. That flashback seemed to fill in more holes than create them, which I like.

[Rumsy4]

Transcript of The Hades Pages (sounds like the Reynolds Pamphlet, heh) from the Underworld Storybrooke.

 

Questions I have which may or may not be answered. 

1. Where are the "thousand freshly reaped souls" coming from? Is Hades the place where people from ALL realms go when they die, or only from the magical realms? Underbrooke seems too small to hold that many souls if a thousand souls are coming in every day. 

 

2. What is the "infernal river"? Does he mean the river of fire, or the river of Lost Souls? I think it's the former. Wow. He's sending thousand souls into eternal damnation each day? Where do these souls go? Will we ever find out?

[Camera One]

How did Liam "hear" about Killian being in town?  How did he know to go to Emma's house?

 

Why did The Apprentice wait for Henry's car-ride with Cruella to appear?

 

How would Cruella know about the pen if it appeared in the Sorcerer's Mansion which is locked up and the pen is hidden in a lamp?

 

Why would the ink in the Storybook still be wet?

 

Everyone on Captain Silver's ship had the unfinished business of "Why did we all die in a shipwreck?"  Seriously...?

 

If Hades "has eyes everywhere", then how and why are the "visitors" walking around freely with no obstruction?  

 

Why didn't he or some minion just grab the key to the Mansion?  Then nobody could get in...

 

Did everyone already get over the fact that they're stuck in Hell for good?

 

How would Henry "write" Hades' story if it happened ages ago?  Does he have time travelling powers?

Edited March 28, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

How would Henry "write" Hades' story if it happened ages ago?  Does he have time travelling powers?

I think that's where the power of the pen comes in. It's supposed to be used to record events, and it can magically record events even if the Author wasn't present (since no one saw Isaac recording the events of the original book and the book recorded events at which there were no witnesses). So Henry may be able to sit down to write Hades' story, and it will magically flow out of the pen.

 

There were a couple of things that struck me as continuity issues, but I'm hazy on season one, so I could be wrong.

 

First, Regina says she tore the pages about herself out of Henry's book because she didn't want him knowing she was the evil queen. But I thought he did figure out from the book that she was the Evil Queen. That's what the gaslighting was about -- he knew, and she was trying to make him think it was all in his head. She didn't even know about the book until later. I thought it was Emma (or maybe Henry, or Emma and Henry) who tore the ending about the tree wardrobe and baby Emma being sent to safety out of the book and burned them so that Regina wouldn't know about that part (Emma was humoring Henry at the time).

 

Then there was Cruella's assertion that James had resented David his entire life because their mother kept David and not him. I find it hard to believe that George would have brokered a deal with Rumple to get a child he could pass off as his own so he could have an heir in spite of his wife being rendered barren and then not go all-out in pretending that the child was his own. But even if he had told James he was adopted, as I recall, George didn't know about the twin thing until after James died and Rumple's solution to bringing James "back" was to provide the twin. If George didn't know his son had a twin, how did James know? And even if Rumple told James, I find it hard to believe that James never threw that back in George's face. Plus, I never got any sense of damage out of James. His main problem was that he was spoiled rotten, and his father got frustrated with the way that made him turn out. He resented George for making him do something other than wench and drink, not because he was adopted.

[Camera One]

Agreed about James.  I didn't get the Regina-ripping pages comment either.  Did she mean she ripped out the story of her and the Stable Boy?  Because she was everywhere else in the Book.  How convenient that Hades was the last story, eh?  

 

 

 

I think that's where the power of the pen comes in. It's supposed to be used to record events, and it can magically record events even if the Author wasn't present (since no one saw Isaac recording the events of the original book and the book recorded events at which there were no witnesses). So Henry may be able to sit down to write Hades' story, and it will magically flow out of the pen.

 

It's still confusing to me.  Why would the Author ever need to go anywhere if they can magically record anytime, anyone, any realm?  Why need an Author at all?  Why not just have an automatic moving Pen, like the automatic moving Broom?

 

I also loved that vague comment the Apprentice made about how the Pen might have more powers in the Underworld... of course it does.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Camera One