Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[Amerilla]

At the moment, Adam is "engaging" with fans, who are using my new favorite hashtag #ItHappenedOffScreen. He's so pissed, I think he's about to take his marbles and go home. Watching him try to defend himself is getting increasingly pathetic. But the fans are bringing up some decent points, along with the shipper garbage.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Amerilla

[Panopticon]

I thought it was actually funny when he answered "balanced diet" to a fan who asked why some people fall when their hearts get ripped out and others don't.

[DigitalCount]

This is the most amazing thing. I remember in the SV forums where we used to joke about Offscreenville, and how it was a better show that made more sense than the original. Never would I have thought that a writing staff would not only confirm this, but actually use it as a defense to criticism...? I'm in awe of that Marian storyline described by Curio, but TSTW, it would be presented to vilify Marian's legit complaints instead of calling out Regina, like you guys said.

How on earth can Adam think that saying "it happened offscreen" is a good defense, and that he should feel insulted or defensive that fans didn't understand a story element they never saw? Has "show, don't tell" become "don't show or tell, until later when you get asked directly"?

(Lol, my phone tried to correct offscreen to on-screen. My phone understands the principles of writing television better than Adam Horowitz)

I'm at a loss for words. I hope this isn't too far off-topic, because I wanted to make a point about the continuity snarls and react to the commentary provided by the writers. This is the most baffling statement I've ever read regarding the plotting for a television show.

Edited July 29, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Souris]

Somebody asked Jane Espenson on Twitter about stuff happening offscreen, and she said if it didn't happen onscreen, you can't say that it happened. Thereby seemingly contradicting Adam's assertion. Oops! Adam got involved and said Jane is right but that doesn't contradict what he said. Then Jane walked it back to, oh, yeah, we must assume that there's stuff we don't see. LOL. Thread here.

[Shanna Marie]

Yes, we should assume that things happen offscreen. We don't need to see them doing laundry or clipping their toenails. But if it matters to the understanding of the story, then it needs to happen onscreen or at least be directly addressed onscreen.

 

Also, facts aren't the only things that need to remain consistent when you're pulling a retcon. Character matters, too. I'm side-eying their assertion that Robin totally told Regina offscreen that he'd met Zelena, given that the identity of the Wicked Witch was a big, huge plot point and having someone in their group who'd met her, even briefly, would be a big enough deal that it should have come up, especially since Neal died so that Rumple could tell them her identity. This makes Robin and/or Regina look stupid and/or careless.

 

But what bugs me is that the Zarian plot requires Zelena to act wildly out of character and go against everything that's been previously established about her personality, her interests, and her goals. She didn't just hate Regina on general principles and want to mess up her life. She wanted to take over her life, and not in a romantic sense. She would have been more likely to come up with a plot that sent Regina out of town so she could take over the mayor's office and mansion than one that had her having to leave town with Regina's boyfriend, who would have preferred to stay with Regina.

 

If we're stuck with the idea of Zelena replacing Marian and coming to Storybrooke with Hook and Emma instead of using her position back in time to undo Regina's future (you know, like her original plan), I think she'd have been most likely to take advantage of the first opportunity alone with Regina to switch glamours, so Regina was stuck being "Marian" and then frozen (with Ingrid not responsible and framed for it) while Zelena was pretending to be Regina, gleefully taking over her life and seducing Robin. Even if Regina were conscious as Marian, it would have made for an interesting turnabout for Regina to be forced to walk in her victim's shoes and watch Robin straying with another woman.

 

Funny, I noticed the "TSTW" in the post above and momentarily forgot that it means "this show; these writers" because I'd been reading some boards about books, where TSTL is the acronym for "too stupid to live." That's how I was reading this until the "W" tripped me up. So maybe it also means "too stupid to write."

[YaddaYadda]

In their defense, regarding the whole Robin told Regina off screen excuse which is super lame.  Regina didn't give Robin the time of day even if she was throwing looks his way, she insulted him a couple of times. Even if Robin had said he had met Zelena and mentioned her during one of the flashbacks, it wouldn't have changed anything in Storybrooke for anyone just because no one remembered who Zelena was because of the whole cursed memories.

 

Snowing knew she was after their baby, they knew how to defeat Zelena but didn't remember until the curse was broken (although I think they figured out the baby part before but I don't remember because that arc was just terrible).  

 

I think when the writers' sentences start with "wouldn't it be cool if..." then that's when they need to go back and see if it makes sense with whatever they wrote.  All of a sudden, there's a permanent portal between Oz and the Enchanted Forest (or Sherwood or wherever Robin had his tavern which I'm assuming Sherwood is part of the EF anyway) and all of a sudden the Dark One is not just some curse but a goop that lives inside a person and corrupts them until it takes over their body.

 

And the more Adam tries to explain things, the bigger the hole becomes.  The writers should know by now that the people who engage them on Twitter are people who aren't just casual viewers.  These guys will dissect the hell out of a scene (much like we do) and discuss the hell out of it (much like we do) and point out the inconsistencies (much like we do).  

[KingOfHearts]

It's funny that this inconsistency involves a character with almost no characterization being out of character. Her only defining traits are her craziness, loudness and jealousy. That's about it. For the writers to contradict what little she has is almost laughable. Zelena's a pretty screwed up persona, but for them to botch her continuity so directly is bizarre. There's one rule when writing this character - she's not subtle. They broke it.

[DigitalCount]

Somebody asked Jane Espenson on Twitter about stuff happening offscreen, and she said if it didn't happen onscreen, you can'tsay that it happened. Thereby seemingly contradicting Adam's assertion. Oops! Adam got involved and said Jane is right but that doesn't contradict what he said. Then Jane walked it back to, oh, yeah, we must assume that there's stuff we don't see. LOL. Thread here.

Cringing massively out of secondhand embarrassment. That's really unfortunate. So offscreen (phone once again tried to auto-correct it to on-screen!) story is now the party line. This kinda makes trying to follow and analyze the story impossible now, though, doesn't it?

[Shanna Marie]

In their defense, regarding the whole Robin told Regina off screen excuse which is super lame.  Regina didn't give Robin the time of day even if she was throwing looks his way, she insulted him a couple of times. Even if Robin had said he had met Zelena and mentioned her during one of the flashbacks, it wouldn't have changed anything in Storybrooke for anyone just because no one remembered who Zelena was because of the whole cursed memories.

I think for me the problem with the retcon of Robin meeting Zelena before the Missing Year is that it doesn't fit what happened in Storybrooke. Robin was there when Little John (presumably his best friend) was attacked by a flying monkey and then turned into one. As I recall, that was how they realized they were dealing with the Wicked Witch of the West. But at that point he didn't say, "Hey, I've met her -- just once, so I don't think I could draw you a picture, but she's tall, redhaired and has an accent a bit like mine." That would have narrowed it down considerably, but he never seemed to put two and two together. So the gang spent at least another episode or two, if not more, fumbling about, not having any idea who the Wicked Witch might be, and then Neal had to die so that Rumple could identify her, when all along, it turns out that Robin had met her long before the Missing Year, so he should have remembered her.

 

I actually have slightly less of a problem with Zelena knowing everything about Robin and Roland because that fits her pattern (though her pattern doesn't bear a lot of examination). We saw that she knew enough about Ariel to convincingly impersonate her to Hook and Belle and she knew about Hook's previous interaction with Ariel in order to manipulate him. While in Oz, she had that magical iPad that allowed her to spy on people and even look back at past events, so presumably that was how she got the dirt on Hook, and I can imagine that she might have done some digging into Regina's new boyfriend -- and she had to have known about a boyfriend even if it was just via Rumple, since Rumple got Regina's heart from Robin after threatening Roland. However, did we see her using this magic while in Storybrooke? She had it in Oz, but I don't think they fully established that she still had this technology after the curse (since it was build into the Oz palace). With it, she might have been able to scroll back in time to find dirt on Hook once she saw him with Emma. She wouldn't have had any reason to know he existed or was at all important while in the Enchanted Forest, since he bailed immediately. But since she did apparently have the capability to look back into Hook's life, once she became aware of Robin, I guess she could have looked back into his life to find out who his wife was and what had happened to her. She would have had to do this before doing the final spellcasting in the barn because she didn't have access to that magic technology in the past as a wisp of smoke, and she was being entirely supervised from the time she arrived back in Storybrooke, so she wouldn't have had a chance to look up the name of her kid before meeting him.

 

Where it all falls apart is in the characterization. While she was able to imitate Ariel, she barely made it through half a day (they interrupted Hook and Henry at lunch to get Hook to talk to Ariel, then she'd already revealed herself before the gang went to dinner) before she started pouring it on way too thick with Hook so she could make him feel extra guilty, and then she couldn't resist revealing herself to him and crowing about what she'd done to him. Telling him she'd cursed his lips meant that he instantly started avoiding Emma, exactly the opposite of what she wanted. He went from being very into Emma and flirting with her to not even touching her. If Zelena hadn't told him about the curse, maybe disguised the spell as another slap, then things might have run their course without him even knowing he needed to avoid Emma. Every one of Zelena's schemes so far has been ruined by her own inability to resist a good Mwa ha ha at her victims. There is no way she would have been able to have multiple sincere conversations with Regina without letting something slip, and she'd have choked on the words thanking Regina for saving her life and admitting that her "husband" was choosing Regina over her -- Zelena's known major trigger.

[Camera One]

Adam shouldn't have been so specific that Robin told Regina that he met Zelena "briefly" offscreen. If the show stands alone, then don't respond. Responding suggested he did see it as an inconsistency.

Why does he feel the need to prove that he and Eddy had everything planned from the onset? Is that really true? Like after "Bleeding Through", how he was arguing with a fan that if you went back and watched "The Stable Boy", you would be able to tell that Cora and Leopold knew each other.

[Camera One]

Oh seriously, in lieu of the show airing, this is high entertainment:

 

megan ‏@electraparrilla

@AdamHorowitzLA did roland actually take the forgetting potion or is that another plausible off screen moment that we're to assume happened?

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@electraparrilla that's up to you to discern!

Edited July 30, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Honestly, I wish I could take that forgetting potion.

[KingOfHearts]

 

that's up to you to discern!

So, Adam can declare something we have no evidence of happening (Robin mentioning Zelena) as canon, yet something that was directly alluded to (Roland's forgetting potion) is up for debate by the viewers? What a load of malarkey. Someone needs to remove his social media privileges for a while. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

So basically this will be an "unanswered question"?  Even though we will presumably see Roland next season?  So if we don't see Robin worrying about how Roland is dealing, then it suggests he did get the forgetting potion.  Unless Robin was worrying about Roland offscreen, of course.  

[Mari]

Eh... I'm not sure Roland's ever really been a Robin priority. He falls somewhere below crypt sex and repaying Neal for Rumple not killing him because honor.

[Camera One]

Why does the Author's ink have to have blood of darkness (and not any darkness, it had to be Emma's darkness)?  And whose blood was in the ink that the Author used back in the Enchanted Forest?  Will we find out why and when the Author position was created in the first place, and why Merlin decided to give the Author the ability to change the story?  

[YaddaYadda]

I thought the vial contained straight up squid ink.  You know, stuff that happens off screen and all.

[Camera One]

Okay, now I remember to answer to one of those questions.  They said something about how the ink needed to be different because it's a World Without Magic and Emma's responsible for the happy endings here, so that's why they needed her blood but it has to be "darkened" first.  

[Shanna Marie]

They said something about how the ink needed to be different because it's a World Without Magic and Emma's responsible for the happy endings here, so that's why they needed her blood but it has to be "darkened" first.

The fact that Emma is responsible for all the happy endings in the world is one of the worst retcons in the show. It makes no sense and is absolutely crazy that one person would somehow be magically destined to be responsible for making happy endings happen -- especially since the outcome of the entire Operation Dumbass plot was the Valuable Lesson that we're each responsible for writing our own happy endings. And yet the Dark Savior blood did work magically, so it was magically confirmed that the Savior is responsible for happy endings. Argh!

 

The way it was laid out in the first season, Emma was only responsible for happy endings as it related specifically to the Dark Curse. The Dark Curse was designed to take away everyone's happy endings. Emma's DNA was woven into the curse so that she was able to operate outside its constraints. She was able to bring back the happy endings while the curse was still somewhat in place because Regina couldn't magically manipulate her using the curse, the way she could for everyone else in town. And then ultimately Emma was responsible for restoring everyone's power to write their own happy endings by breaking the curse and restoring everyone's memories. She wasn't responsible for them eventually all having happy outcomes. She was responsible for removing the artificial constraints Regina had put on them that took away the happy endings they'd already achieved or that kept them from being able to pursue their own happiness. The curse was about keeping everyone unhappy, and by removing the curse, Emma allowed them the chance to be happy.

 

It's like the way the Declaration of Independence doesn't say we have the right to be happy. It says we have the right to pursue happiness. There's a big difference.

[Camera One]

Why didn't the Sorcerer / Apprentice open a Door for Rumple to the World Without Magic to find Bae, like they did for Ingrid?  They would get the Dark One into a place where his magic wouldn't work.  Which eliminates the problem of Rumple attacking the Apprentice to get the Hat Box.  No Dark Curse required.  Presumably, the Apprentice knows exactly when in time Emma would be born and when Lily would be around, so he would presumably know exactly where Baelfire was.

 

The Apprentice was in Storybrooke but he had zero idea that the Sorcerer's mansion was in town, that August took the missing page, that a key to the door trapping the Author was just lying around and that the Hat Box was just sitting on a table for Rumple to find?  He even lost the Magical Broom, and was just sitting at home watching TV surprised Rumple was around?  This brings the phrase "doing a Mickey Mouse job" to a whole new level.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I don't know. I have a vague impression of the word "husband" or "wife" being used in 3B with Zelena, but I could be making up stories in my head. That's where #ItHappenedOffscreen makes things difficult. We had to connect the (invisible ink) dots between Cora gloating to Aurora about how someone could be saved from a wraith and seeing Philip be perfectly fine, so we have no way of knowing what developed between Aurora and Mulan on the way to saving Philip, how Aurora and Philip were upon being finally reunited, if they finally got to go through with their wedding that was interrupted by Maleficent's curses, etc. Obviously, Aurora and Philip were sleeping together, given the pregnancy, and Mulan would have had to be pretty dense to be around them and not realize that they were a serious item, especially given the magical proof of true love, since Philip's kiss broke Aurora's sleeping curse.

 

Good points about Love Actually (though that's still not my favorite thread in the movie) -- he told her to make her feel better, and it was possibly less awkward for all of them as friends if she knew he was awkward around her because he was attracted to her and felt guilty about it than if she mistakenly thought he hated her. There didn't seem to be much awkwardness among Philip, Aurora and Mulan, so no reason for Mulan to even consider doing what essentially amounted to trying to break Philip and Aurora up.

 

Random thought: Aurora seemed to be closer to being a contemporary to Regina than to Snow (or maybe in between) but was apparently frozen by the sleeping curse, while Philip was frozen first by the dragon beast (I'm not going to attempt to spell it) curse and then by being in the CoraDome. In the fairy tale and Disney movie, Aurora's whole castle (and in some of the stories, the whole kingdom) was put to sleep, as well, so her parents didn't age however many years while she slept. Did the same sort of thing happen in this story? Where are Aurora's and Philip's parents? Are she and Philip now suddenly alone in this strange other world and away from their families? But I guess there wasn't time for this while we had to feel sad for Maleficent.

 

I guess it depends on what Maleficent did to Aurora and Philip's parents (everyone in the palace except Aurora).  I suppose most of the people in the Safe Haven could have been people who lived in Aurora's castle.  But yeah, their parents are MIA and are still MIA, since why wouldn't they still be the rulers? When we first saw Aurora in 2A, their castle was utterly destroyed.  Was that because of the Curse?  I have a feeling that back when they wrote Season 1, they wanted to imply that the Curse destroyed the Enchanted Forest.  Yet by Season 3, we see that certain places like Rumple's Mansion and Knifington Palace were completely untouched.  Were they under the Cora Dome too?  

Edited August 13, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yet by Season 3, we see that certain places like Rumple's Mansion and Knifington Palace were completely untouched.  Were they under the Cora Dome too?

Regina said in 3x12 that she protected Knifington Palace from the curse. I'm going to assume Rumple worked his mansion into it as well.

Edited August 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I have a feeling that back when they wrote Season 1, they wanted to imply that the Curse destroyed the Enchanted Forest.  Yet by Season 3, we see that certain places like Rumple's Mansion and Knifington Palace were completely untouched.  Were they under the Cora Dome too?  

 

In the beginning of Season 2, Regina and co. send the wraith that is after her through Jefferson's Hat into the EF, a "place that no longer exists", since that would be the same as "banishing it to oblivion". But in the next episode, Regina admits that the EF still exists. Additionally, Hook was able to outrun the second Curse, which means some of the lands in the Enchanted Forest must also have escaped both Curses. This begs the question as to why Blue didn't just poof everyone outside the Purple smoke. Oh, right--she is useless.

 

To add to the complication, we don't know whether Wonderland and Oz were affected. Adam seemed to imply on twitter (yeah) that Zelena hadn't aged for 28 years because she was under a protected dome like Cora's. Did Zelena protect Oz though a dome as well? Why did the Curse affect realms that needed a portal to get to, but spare parts of the EF? I have more questions than answers fo this conundrum!

[Camera One]

Yeah, Adam's Zelena-Dome concept was laughable and probably made up on the spot when someone asked why Zelena didn't age.   Why didn't everyone put up their own Domes?  Why was Maleficent so concerned?  Just put up a Dome!  

[YaddaYadda]

Speaking of Zelena...she has spies everywhere and they're always circling.  She sends Walsh to NYC to look after Emma.  How did he get to NYC? Hook had to wait for the veil between the worlds to come down so that he could use the magic bean.

 

Meanwhile, Zelena's minions are in every realm.

 

They totally diminished the Dark Curse.  

[daxx]

Maybe flying monkeys like mermaids can realm travel.

[Camera One]

Rumple used the Gauntlet to find whose biggest weakness?  Maleficent, Cruella and Ursula wanted to get the Gauntlet to determine the weakness of their common enemy, who would be... ???

 

If flying monkeys can cross realms, why didn't Rumple turn someone into a flying monkey and command them to take him to the Land Without Magic?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Hook had to wait for the veil between the worlds to come down so that he could use the magic bean.

I call crap on the "walls are down" garbage. Apparently the exceptions to that rule are Bae, Wendy, The Hipster Darlings, The Shadow, The Dragon, Cruella, Ursula, Lily, Emma, The Apprentice, Ingrid, Isaac, Walt Disney and Walsh. Even if you create some kind of headcanon for all that, that is a lot of exceptions for something explaining a major plot point in 3B. That's like 15 people.

Edited August 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I think we can call bullshit on all of this realm jumping.  Rumple looks inefficient.  We all know Blue is shady as fuck.  

 

I blame all of this on Merlin.

[Camera One]

I expect a couple more people will join that list in Season 5.  At this point, I have zero confidence that their writing for Merlin will pull together all the contradictory threads into a coherent narrative.  The actions we've seen from "The Sorcerer" so far have all been dumb and careless.    A&E will no doubt try to impose another layer of manipulation which was above Rumple, and I can already taste the feast of continuity problems we'll be enjoying in the coming year.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

In my skimming rewatch, I think I've found the answer to a continuity thing that's bugged me, though it brings up another one. I'd wondered why magic beans were so terribly scarce during all the time Rumple was trying to reach Bae when the bean fields weren't destroyed and the giants almost all killed off until during James's lifetime, but in "Tiny," the giants talk about the bean harvest coming after a hundred years of work. So if it's a hundred years between crops, there might have been scarcity in the intervening time. But then how did they have a crop so quickly in Storybrooke? It was only a matter of weeks, at most. Normal beans wouldn't have grown in that time.
 

I think we can call bullshit on all of this realm jumping.  Rumple looks inefficient.

My headcanon is that it was dread-induced subconscious procrastination. He was really worried about facing his son again and the reception he'd get, so while he was trying to reach him, he also was kind of trying not to. There were other, easier approaches, but he went with one that was difficult and that took a long time. He could tell himself he was working hard toward his goal while still not being anywhere near it. It's like when I have a difficult work task that I decide can't be started properly until I've researched it thoroughly, cleaned my desk, and alphabetized my pencils. All that work feels like work toward my goal, but I'm really just putting it off as long as possible. The seer thing was circular -- the seer saw him procrastinating and using the most difficult route, and then he used the prophecy to justify using the most difficult route.

 

A wacky little timeline thing I noticed in "Tiny" -- Rumple, Emma, and Henry set off for Boston (to fly to New York) first thing in the morning. We cut between the events in Storybrooke and their journey through security, etc., in the airport. At the end of the episode, it's dark when we have the last scene between Snow and David, where they wonder how Emma's doing. Then we see Emma, Rumple, and Henry taking off to fly to New York. Did they spend all day in the airport if they're not taking off until nightfall after leaving Maine first thing in the morning? Couldn't they have driven to New York by then?

 

Then we see them arriving in a cab near Neal's apartment during daylight. I didn't know they had red-eye flights between Boston and New York (leave at night, arrive in the morning).

 

And how did they get Rumple's car back from the parking lot at Logan? They drove to the airport in Boston, flew to New York, then sailed the Jolly Roger back to Storybrooke.

[orza]

The timeline was consistent. They didn't leave for Boston in the morning, they left in the early afternoon. Gold showed up at Snow's apartment early in the morning to call in his favor and told Emma they would be leaving on their trip at noon.

 

If they left at noon they would have arrived in New York late afternoon or early evening. The scene of them getting out of the cab was the next morning. They didn't have any luggage with them and they were wearing slightly wearing different clothes. They also went out to lunch after the drama in Neal's apartment.

[Shanna Marie]

The timeline was consistent. They didn't leave for Boston in the morning, they left in the early afternoon. Gold showed up at Snow's apartment early in the morning to call in his favor and told Emma they would be leaving on their trip at noon.

Oh, okay, that must have been when I hit FF because I picked up on the "first thing in the morning" but not the noon departure. So they must have stayed at a hotel near the airport upon arrival to go find Bae in the morning rather than barge in on him at night. Even if someone is more likely to be home in the evening than in the daytime.

 

I still wonder how they got Rumple's car back, though.

[HoodlumSheep]

If flying monkeys can cross realms, why didn't Rumple turn someone into a flying monkey and command them to take him to the Land Without Magic?

I've always headcanoned that mermaids, etc can't bring along other people. They themselves are magical and can hop realms, but any passengers they bring couldn't. Of course objects are an exception, like the Jolly.

The only problem is that Walsh was not originally a winged monkey. So who knows how Walsh came through. Maybe he borrowed the magic slippers.

Actually, were any of the winged monkeys actually real, or were they all people transformed into one?

[Curio]

Speaking of Zelena...she has spies everywhere and they're always circling.  She sends Walsh to NYC to look after Emma.  How did he get to NYC? Hook had to wait for the veil between the worlds to come down so that he could use the magic bean.

 

This reminds me of another continuity issue from 3B that has bugged me. What exactly did Neal write on his letter to Hook? It had to be vague enough to be written by anyone because Hook assumed Snow and Charming sent the dove letter to him. But it also had to be specific enough about the details of the curse coming because Hook knew everyone was sent back to Storybrooke and that Emma was their only hope.

 

But when Hook crashes Emma's date at the restaurant, he gives her Neal's exact apartment address. Did Hook come up with that idea all by himself? Or was the exact apartment address written by Neal on his note because Neal wanted to give Hook a hint about where to send Emma to help with her memories? If that's the case, then Hook should have known Neal wrote the letter, not the Charmings. Or did Hook wander the streets of New York City until he found the exact building where Emma whacked him over the head with a garbage can, wrote that address down on a paper, and slid it to Emma during her date?

 

Also, did Hook magically appear right in front of Emma's door after his magic bean trade? Or did he have to wander the streets of NYC until he figured out her address? Why was all of this filed under #ItHappenedOffScreen?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

What exactly did Neal write on his letter to Hook?

 

He wrote it on a piece of his sleeve that he tore, which was not big enough to write a whole song and dance.

 

I always thought Hook was the one who gave Emma Neal's address.  He had been there and left in the building basement.

[Curio]

He wrote it on a piece of his sleeve that he tore, which was not big enough to write a whole song and dance.

Yeah, I remember that. I'm just curious about what exactly was written because it also has to include these pieces of information:

 

• Hook: "Look, I need your help. Something's happened. Something terrible. Your family is in trouble."
• Hook: "All was well until I got a message. A message saying that there was a new curse and that everyone had been returned to Storybrooke. The message told me that the only hope was you."
• Hook: "As I was sailing the realms a bird landed on my ship’s wheel with a note instructing me to retrieve Emma and bring her back here."
• Mary Margret: "Who sent it?" Hook: "I assumed you did."

 

I always thought Hook was the one who gave Emma Neal's address. He had been there and left in the building basement.

But here's where it gets a little fuzzy.

 

• Hook: "Somebody bloody well sent me the message. Who else would have an antidote? Who else would have known where to find the savior?"

 

That bolded line right there makes it seem like the letter had the location of where Emma was. So if Neal's note didn't have his exact address on it, it seems like it said she's in New York, but didn't give the exact address.

 

I actually agree with you—I think Hook probably remembered where he had been chained a year prior and wrote down the address himself. (Apparently, Hook has very nice handwriting.) But I doubt he had the exact address 89 Wooster Street, New York, NY 10012 (with the zip code!) memorized ever since Tamara and Owen found him. So that means he probably had to wander around NYC for a bit to remember what the exact address was.

 

So, with all of that... Here's what I assume was probably written on the note:

 

• New curse is here. Emma’s family in trouble. Everyone sent to Storybrooke. Find Emma in New York and bring her back. She’s our only hope.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

Half the fun is to fill in these blanks, remember?  Think of this as a New York Times crossword puzzle with only half the clues and word boxes that won't fit.

 

Neal was able to write a huge amount on that sleeve.  Reason?  Being inside the Dark One's body alters your written output.  This same effect occurs during a shipwreck.  Remember how Elsa's mother was able to write such a beautifully written long letter in the midst of all that rocking and drowning?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Remember how Elsa's mother was able to write such a beautifully written long letter in the midst of all that rocking and drowning?

 

And glue that rock that contained everyone's memories of Ingrid and Helga onto said letter.

[Camera One]

Good thing she stowed waterproof glue below deck.

[Curio]

Half the fun is to fill in these blanks, remember? Think of this as a New York Times crossword puzzle with only half the clues and word boxes that won't fit.

 

The sad thing is that it is fun speculating about some of the blanks...but only if I know the show will eventually answer my questions later. 90% of the time with this show, I know those answers will never be verified.

 

Okay, one last thing about Neal's note and Hook's NYC travels. So, if we can conclude that Neal's letter said Emma was in New York, and that Hook was the one who wrote Neal's exact address on a separate piece of paper, when did Hook write the address down? The piece of paper he hands Emma is a torn piece of lined paper written with a ball point pen, so we can assume Hook wrote the address down once he arrived in the Land Without Magic since those materials don't exist in the Enchanted Forest. But did he write the address before or after Emma kicked him in the jewels?

 

When Hook receives Neal's letter on his ship and it says Emma is in New York, did Hook think about New York when he jumped through the magic bean portal and the portal just dropped him off at a random place in NYC and he had to navigate to Emma's apartment on his own? Or did Hook just think about Emma when he jumped through the magic portal and the portal plopped him right in front of Emma's apartment door, which means he didn't have to navigate NYC finding her address? If he did that, he basically just ignored the New York hint written on the letter. And if we go with that option, after Emma knees him and leaves him in the hallway, does he realize making Emma take the potion will take much longer than he expected and he needs a place to stay for the night, remembers Neal's apartment, and goes to search for it? And then once he breaks into the apartment, does he see the mail addressed to Neal, steals a scratch piece of paper from his apartment, writes the address down, and then goes and stalks Emma on her date and gives her the note with Neal's exact address?

 

(The only reason I'm trying to tackle all of these tiny details is because I'm thinking of doing a comic of this Offscreenville event and I want to make sure all the events are compatible with what's already canon on screen.)

[Camera One]

I do think it's fun.  But then when you realize the writers probably can't answer any of these questions either, it just becomes sad.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

How would Neal know where Emma is anyway?  I mean unless it's something that Neal overheard from one of Zelena's flying monkeys.  And I thought the magic bean took him to NYC and then he started looking at every blonde with long hair (comment in 4x06 about how there are a lot of blondes out there).  I live in Manhattan, the place is fucking huge.  But Hook found Central Park and the entrance by the zoo, but Emma apparently lived in SoHo which I wouldn't walk from Central Park to SoHo like ever.  

[Curio]

How would Neal know where Emma is anyway? I mean unless it's something that Neal overheard from one of Zelena's flying monkeys.

That's why it's hard for me to reconcile the line, "Somebody bloody well sent me the message. Who else would have an antidote? Who else would have known where to find the savior?" Because it makes it seem like Neal knew where Emma was and wrote it on his letter to Hook. But that means we have to create another offscreen event in our heads where Neal talked to Regina about what kind of memories she gave Emma and Henry. We have the canon line where Hook mentioned talking to Regina offscreen, "Regina told me how that bloody thing worked. It returned all of our belongings to this land as well as us. It means that somewhere out there is my ship. All I have to do is find her." So it's possible we can assume Neal also had a conversation with Regina offscreen where she told him that she gave Emma and Henry memories of living in New York and that's where they are currently.

 

And I thought the magic bean took him to NYC and then he started looking at every blonde with long hair (comment in 4x06 about how there are a lot of blondes out there). I live in Manhattan, the place is fucking huge.

That's possible, but yeah, Manhattan is huge. That's why I think the bean just plopped him in right front of Emma's apartment door because A) that helps take away all the pesky details about Hook having to navigate NYC on his own and miraculously finding Emma's exact apartment address and getting past the security doors, and B) it looked like he hadn't seen Emma in a century when she opened the door. If he stalked Emma after seeing countless blondes on the street and just happened to see Emma go into her apartment complex, I don't know if his reaction would be like that. Hook's line about seeing a lot of blondes could also be referring to trying to find Emma on her date after he had already found her at her apartment.

 

But Hook found Central Park and the entrance by the zoo, but Emma apparently lived in SoHo which I wouldn't walk from Central Park to SoHo like ever.

I'm guessing Hook found Central Park during his first trip to New York and figured it was the most private yet easily findable area he could meet Emma to give her the memory potion.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

A) that helps take away all the pesky details about Hook having to navigate NYC on his own and miraculously finding Emma's exact apartment address and getting past the security doors

 

He navigated Manhattan pretty well the first time he went there.  He took his ship there (I mean where did he leave it, the piers?) and then went into this insanely busy concrete jungle with barely any knowledge of the land without magic, managed to find Neal's building like a boss.

[Curio]

He navigated Manhattan pretty well the first time he went there. He took his ship there (I mean where did he leave it, the piers?) and then went into this insanely busy concrete jungle with barely any knowledge of the land without magic, managed to find Neal's building like a boss.

I'm not discounting Hook's awesome navigating skills (because, yeah, the dude is a boss when it comes to that), but the more I think about Hook and the magic bean, the more it makes sense that the portal just dropped him off in front of Emma's door. Sure, he could have easily found Emma's apartment on his own in NYC like he found Neal's place a year prior, but Hook also knows the rules of magic bean travel, so he knew if he thought of Emma in the bean portal, there was a good chance it would take him straight to her. And then we'd still have Hook shenanigans navigating New York after Emma kicked him out of her apartment as he stalked her to her date with Walsh.

 

But then when you realize the writers probably can't answer any of these questions either, it just becomes sad.

This. I wish I could ask Adam on Twitter what the writers think actually happened, but I sincerely doubt they ever actually thought it through this far.

[Shanna Marie]

That's why it's hard for me to reconcile the line, "Somebody bloody well sent me the message. Who else would have an antidote? Who else would have known where to find the savior?" Because it makes it seem like Neal knew where Emma was and wrote it on his letter to Hook. But that means we have to create another offscreen event in our heads where Neal talked to Regina about what kind of memories she gave Emma and Henry.

I was wondering about that, too. Unless Neal got info from Regina, he and Hook had the same information because they were separated from Emma at the same time. But did Regina even know about New York? Emma's memory was that their house in Boston burned and they started over in New York, which made for a neat transition and a way for them to arrive in New York with no stuff and no records, but that would mean that Regina just set up the memories up to the house fire and leaving Boston. She might not have known what Emma would do with that memory or what next steps she would take. However, if that was part of the setup and she knew Emma would head to New York, it doesn't seem likely that she would have told that many people the specifics of what was up with Emma, so you'd think that would have been a data point in the "who sent the message if we didn't?" discussion after their memories returned. Wouldn't Regina have been able to say something like, "Well, I told you two where Emma went, but come to think of it, Neal also asked."

 

Or did Hook just think about Emma when he jumped through the magic portal and the portal plopped him right in front of Emma's apartment door, which means he didn't have to navigate NYC finding her address?

That's my headcanon, and it fits with what they've said about bean travel. It takes you to the place you're thinking about, so if Hook thought about Emma, the bean would have taken him to her, possibly even to right outside her apartment door (because apparently beans do have respect for privacy and it would have been bad form to dump him in her living room without her permission -- but wouldn't that have made for a fun scene?).

 

Hook found Central Park and the entrance by the zoo, but Emma apparently lived in SoHo which I wouldn't walk from Central Park to SoHo like ever.

I've done it, but I'm kind of insane when it comes to walking. Then again, Hook is from a world where the only forms of transportation are ships/boats, things involving horses (including wagons and carriages), and your own feet, so he may have a different view of walking distances. Jane Austen heroines walked miles to visit their neighbors and thought nothing of it, so Hook may not have considered it a long walk. He walked to another town to find the Jolly Roger with Ariel.

 

He navigated Manhattan pretty well the first time he went there.  He took his ship there (I mean where did he leave it, the piers?) and then went into this insanely busy concrete jungle with barely any knowledge of the land without magic, managed to find Neal's building like a boss.

And if events between Storybrooke and Manhattan lined up accurately, he did it in the time it took Neal to take Henry to get pizza and then get back to the apartment. It took Rumple and company longer to fly to New York than it took Hook to sail there. I guess the Jolly Roger is a fast ship. Then again, he didn't have to go through security.

 

Speaking of finding things, it highly amuses me in the season 3 premiere when Neal, who has no magical talent and who isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, manages to find Emma and Henry in Neverland about five minutes after reaching his father's castle, using that crystal ball thingy, and maybe another day to get to him there. And yet Bae was in Neverland for more than a century and Rumple apparently never figured this out. Bae still had to be in Neverland when the curse was cast, so right up to the end, Rumple had the magical technology to have found where his son was, and it was in a place where the curse wasn't even necessary to reach.

[Curio]

Wouldn't Regina have been able to say something like, "Well, I told you two where Emma went, but come to think of it, Neal also asked."

 

She could have, but Robin also could have conveniently mentioned, "Oh, you're looking for the Wicked Witch? I've met her before, I can point her out to you." But, alas...

[Camera One]

Same reason Ingrid didn't say to Emma, "FYI, Rumple is trying to kill you", Anna didn't ask "Hey, whatever happened to the evil Rumplestiltskin?" and Blue never pointed out she knew how to free the Apprentice from the Hat.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Same reason Ingrid didn't say to Emma, "FYI, Rumple is trying to kill you",

I thought Ingrid astrally projected herself while in the circle Rumple locked her into to try to warn Emma what Rumple was up to, and Emma refused to believe her because she didn't trust her. She figured that the right thing to do would be the opposite of what Ingrid told her.

 

Otherwise, yeah, we've got a bad case of plot stupidity, where the plot only works if everyone loses all brain cells. Or else there's "we didn't think of it until later," which would apply to Robin knowing Zelena and Rumple's crystal ball -- things they needed for later plots but didn't consider would mess up previous plots.

 

I wonder if they knew exactly how Hook got the message at the beginning of the season, and thus the way he described it at the beginning in a way that didn't fit or work with what they later showed and told us. At the beginning, they may have just figured he got a message and they'd figure out what it was and what he did about it later, and then later they came up with something. Magic bean was the obvious way for him to travel, but if they knew he was traveling by bean portal, he wouldn't have needed to know where Emma was.