Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[tv echo]

Early ratings for last night's LoT episode dropped from last week* to 1.1 and 2.84 (hopefully, it'll adjust up)...
http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/01/ratings-news-29th-january-2016.html

 

(* Final adjusted ratings for last week's LoT's premiere were 1.2 and 3.21.)
 

Edited January 29, 2016 by tv echo

[Delphi]

I suck with rating numbers. Is that a really bad amount?

[Morrigan2575]

It's tied with Arrow in the demo and only slightly higher in viewers.  In and of itself it's not bad.  Depends on where it settles, how much the show costs, what the marketing budget is, etc.

 

However, as of right now it comes in #2 for the week on the CW

Flash

LoT

Arrow

SPN

[Sakura12]

I don't think so, it wasn't a huge drop. I think that was expected, every second episode drops from the pilot. I think it's doing fairly well for staring a bunch of unknown heroes and villains. Next week episode is the one that really matters, that's when it starts to settle. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

It's similar to Arrow's numbers, which is in its 4th season, and is likely significantly less expensive than LoT. I'd think it's not terrible, but not great.

[dtissagirl]

Vampire Diaries was averaging 0.5-0.6 in the same timeslot -- that's a ginormous improvement, and something the network will also take into stock.

[Velocity23]

But Shondaland is coming back back in 2 weeks! Will see how that impacts the CW line up.

[Morrigan2575]

Vampire Diaries was averaging 0.5-0.6 in the same timeslot -- that's a ginormous improvement, and something the network will also take into stock.

Very true it's a definite year to year timeslot improvement.

[AyChihuahua]

I'd be really interested in knowing how much it costs relative to other shows on the CW.

[Velocity23]

From what i heard Flash is more expensive then Arrow. So i would bet around the same as Flash with less episodes.

[quarks]

Judging by the CGI and the cast, my guess would be that Legends of Tomorrow is more expensive than Flash on a per-episode basis. There's a reason they're already sharing sets with Flash and Arrow just two episodes in.

[Sakura12]

They are also only doing 16 episodes instead of 23. That will give them some extra money. 

 

I'm enjoying LoT for what is a fun show that's not taking itself too seriously and Sara's freaking awesome in it. Kicking ass while stoned after knocking young Martin Stein out with a bong. What's not to love. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

They are also only doing 16 episodes instead of 23. That will give them some extra money. 

 

I'm enjoying LoT for what is a fun show that's not taking itself too seriously and Sara's freaking awesome in it. Kicking ass while stoned after knocking young Martin Stein out with a bong. What's not to love. 

Ray the Cane Toad.

 

Doesn't 16 episodes also mean less ad revenue? I guess whether that matters depends whether the costs are calculated by the season or by the episode.

 

My guess is it'll be fine for this season, but if I were one of the actors I wouldn't buy a house in Vancouver.

Edited January 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Sakura12]

Ray's not that bad on LoT. He's basically a mopey dork that messes up a lot and got punched in the face by Captain Cold. Then again I didn't really watch Season 3 of Arrow, so I didn't see how he was there. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[quarks]

 

Doesn't 16 episodes also mean less ad revenue? I guess whether that matters depends whether the costs are calculated by the season or by the episode.

 

My guess is it'll be fine for this season, but if I were one of the actors I wouldn't buy a house in Vancouver.

 

Broadcast networks generally pay per episode, not per season, so for the network, the issue is usually ad revenue per episode, not per season.

 

With that said, streaming season passes through iTunes and Amazon are apparently starting to muddle this a bit, at least with large multimedia companies that we shall call D and V. I'm not sure about Time Warner.

[AyChihuahua]

Broadcast networks generally pay per episode, not per season, so for the network, the issue is usually ad revenue per episode, not per season.

 

With that said, streaming season passes through iTunes and Amazon are apparently starting to muddle this a bit, at least with large multimedia companies that we shall call D and V. I'm not sure about Time Warner.

It's very cool that there are several people on these boards who actually know stuff about the business.

[Starfish35]

Ray's not that bad on LoT. He's basically a mopey dork that messes up a lot and got punched in the face by Captain Cold.

This is true. Ray on LoT is a vast improvement over Ray on Arrow, at least IMO. He's no longer the perfect billionaire genius businessman. I'm glad they're having him screw up and make some big mistakes.

Although, just to clarify, I'm not trying to change your mind, AyChihuahua. I know your feelings about Ray. :)

Edited January 29, 2016 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

This is true. Ray on LoT is a vast improvement over Ray on Arrow, at least IMO. He's no longer the perfect billionaire genius businessman. I'm glad they're having him screw up and make some big mistakes.

Although, just to clarify, I'm not trying to change your mind, AyChihuahua. I know your feelings about Ray. :)

If only I could pull an Oliver and conveniently suppress the memories of what a creepy condescending misogynistic stalking murderous arrogant asshole he was.

[nksarmi]

Well, at the very least someone should post the gif of Cold punching him in the face for you. :)

[bijoux]

Judging by the CGI and the cast, my guess would be that Legends of Tomorrow is more expensive than Flash on a per-episode basis. There's a reason they're already sharing sets with Flash and Arrow just two episodes in.

Speaking of, Cold, Heat and Ray were caught by VS in Darhk's house from 4x10, right? Was it Darhk's house on LoT (this is the episode he was supposed to appear in as far as I remember) or some other random place?

[AyChihuahua]

That sounds like a description of Oliver! ;)

I didn't pay much attention to season 3 of Arrow, but I don't remember Ray murdering anyone? Can someone refresh my memory?

He set a trap for Oliver and Roy by calling 911 and claiming someone needed help. Roy showed up TO HELP, and the Cane Toad ELECTROCUTED him, sending him flying into a dirty puddle of water.

 

Thus "murderous," not "murdering," bc Roy somehow managed to survive a huge electric jolt, the kind of thing that kills people every year IRL.

 

And Oliver is many things, but he has never been misogynistic or condescending. I also don't remember him stalking any women. If the post was an attempt to shame me for liking Oliver while hating the Cane Toad, it's barking up the wrong tree. I have hated Oliver many times since around 3.21.

Edited January 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[quarks]

Speaking of, Cold, Heat and Ray were caught by VS in Darhk's house from 4x10, right? Was it Darhk's house on LoT (this is the episode he was supposed to appear in as far as I remember) or some other random place?

 

It was supposed to be a different place, despite the identical interiors. It probably wouldn't have been as noticeable if we hadn't seen an action scene in it just the week before, but oh well, we did.  

[bijoux]

@macgirl, when did you feel Oliver was being misogynistic?

It was supposed to be a different place, despite the identical interiors. It probably wouldn't have been as noticeable if we hadn't seen an action scene in it just the week before, but oh well, we did.

Thanks. What about Darhk, was he there? Was his presence in any way memorable?

[Starfish35]

I don't know that I would ever call Oliver misogynistic. I may be forgetting something.

Stalking.....eh. I hate to say it, but he did behave in a stalkery way with Laurel early on. Not in the same way that Ray was with Felicity, but....hanging out on fire escapes in dark alleys spying on your ex......kinda creepy Oliver. Not cool.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know that I would ever call Oliver misogynistic. I may be forgetting something.

Stalking.....eh. I hate to say it, but he did behave in a stalkery way with Laurel early on. Not in the same way that Ray was with Felicity, but....hanging out on fire escapes in dark alleys spying on your ex......kinda creepy Oliver. Not cool.

Good call on the Laurel thing.

 

I don't think Oliver is misogynistic at all. He's super-controlling, but he's that way with everyone. He basically fired Digg after baby Sara was born, and he shot Roy in the knee with an arrow to keep him in line. On the other hand, he completely respected Sara's abilities and happily fought alongside her right away. So to me his "I make everyone do what I think is best" has nothing to do with gender. That doesn't mean I LIKE that characteristic, but I certainly don't find it misogynistic.

 

Also, Oliver has never tried to kill an actual good guy. As far as I'm concerned, the Cane Toad tried to kill Roy, who he had no reason to think was bad, other than that Roy worked with Oliver, who the Cane Toad's supposed serious girlfriend had told him was good. His complete dismissal of her words is evidence of his misogyny. (Along with telling Laurel that her and Felicity's poor female brains don't work right around cute boys.) That he used a 911 call as a trap for Roy is evidence that he knew Roy was a decent kid...he showed up in response to a 911 call for HELP, for goodness' sake. Only to get blasted with electricity that realistically would have killed him.

 

They can write him as differently as they want now, but I haven't forgotten. The guy's a complete turd.

Edited January 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

Maybe sexist is a better word. He was always really patronising to Laurel, Thea and Felicity. He always knew better, and never considered what any of them wanted.

He benched Dig when he was about to become a Dad. How does that play into him being sexist? I'm not saying it's not a character flaw, just that he's an equal opportunity control freak.

[quarks]

Thanks. What about Darhk, was he there? Was his presence in any way memorable?

 

Darhk wasn't in the house. He was in an earlier scene, at the Nuke Auction warehouse - incidentally, a set that has also appeared on both Arrow and Flash this season and last season!  Darhk was trying to purchase a nuclear weapon. 

 

In that scene, we learned:

 

a) Darhk hasn't aged at all from 1975 until now, which is consistent with Ra's saying that Darhk is immortal

b) Darhk dresses up for everything, even nuclear weapon auctions

c) Darhk claimed that he knew pretty much all of the major weapons dealers of the 1970s.

 

What wasn't clear to me was whether or not Darhk would recognize Captain Cold, Heatwave, Professor Victor Garber, or Ray Palmer in 2015/2016.  Sara's name wasn't mentioned, and Darhk didn't use his evil whammy on her, so although Darhk saw Sara in 1975, I don't think he'd have any reason to connect that Sara with the Sara resurrected in 2015. I could very well be wrong here.

[statsgirl]

Yeah, Oliver is a non-discriminating control freak.  He was pretty awful to Roy at first too.

 

 

On Arrow, when we saw your shriveled corpse, was that based on a cast they took of you?
That actually is a body double, a very, very, very skinny woman and they superimposed my face.

Arrow bits from new CL interview...

While it's good to know that there are jobs specifically for people with anorexic, I hope that woman is in treatment.

 

 

What wasn't clear to me was whether or not Darhk would recognize Captain Cold, Heatwave, Professor Victor Garber, or Ray Palmer in 2015/2016.  Sara's name wasn't mentioned, and Darhk didn't use his evil whammy on her, so although Darhk saw Sara in 1975, I don't think he'd have any reason to connect that Sara with the Sara resurrected in 2015. I could very well be wrong here.

I doubt he ever saw the others but he did see  Sara. However if he didn't know about Rip Hunter and his time travelling, it's doubtful he would connect a young blonde woman he briefly saw in 1975 to Lance's 28 year old daughter 40 years later.

Edited January 29, 2016 by statsgirl

[kismet]

SL is beautiful, but it is a generic beautiful. Not sure DD would remember her enough that 41 or so years after spending a few min with her tops, he would remember her. Everyone probably looks remotely familiar to DD. Rays supersuit might be something that he remembers because its unique. But RP was micro size for most of the fight, so I doubt he even saw him.

It was kinda cool to see DD on LoT even if it was just a nuke auction.

Edited January 30, 2016 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

I didn't even understand why they included DD, we didn't find out anything about him and he disappeared just as soon as he appeared.

[lemotomato]

If spoilers are any indication, there are going to be lots of pointless cameos by characters from Arrow and Flash on LoT. The EPs do love their Easter eggs

Speaking of crossing over, someone should remember to ask SA in his next Q&A what happened to that "floater" character he mentioned last spring that was going to be in all three shows. Even though that idea obviously didn't pan out, I'm curious about who it was supposed to be.

Edited January 30, 2016 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

This article is like a Valentine to CL...

 

‘Legends of Tomorrow’: The Fascinating Story Behind Caity Lotz
Nick Cannata-Bowman January 29, 2016
http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/legends-of-tomorrow-the-fascinating-story-behind-caity-lotz.html/?a=viewall

... Of all the characters on the Legends team, though, few are quite as interesting as White Canary, played to perfection by the returning Caity Lotz.

*  *  *

Fans were overwrought when Arrow killed off Lotz’s character soon after that, with her superhero alias, Black Canary, having been fleshed out and evolved so thoroughly up until her death. But then along came Legends of Tomorrow, and suddenly Sara Lance was back, raised from the grave a second time by the CW.

Interestingly enough, this wasn’t just a surprise to fans. As Lotz intimated in an interview with IGN: “I asked the producers, ‘Hey, did you know that you were going to have this spinoff when you killed me?’ They were like, ‘Yeah.’ I was like, ‘What!? What the f**k? Why didn’t you guys tell me?'”

*  *  *

While most of the fight choreography you see in the CW’s comic book universe is either decidedly stilted or handled by stunt doubles, Lotz’s has always been fluid and believable. The reason: Before her acting days, she was an accomplished parkourist and martial arts student. You won’t catch her tagging out for a double in most of her fight scenes, and that’s entirely tied in to the fact that she simply doesn’t need one.

Edited January 30, 2016 by tv echo

[nksarmi]

I don't believe they knew they were going to want Caity when they killed Sara.  Others have speculated that maybe they intended to move KC over and in hindsight that seems far more likely.  But then they realized how popular Sara was and how badly people were taking to Laurel's rise as Black Canary and I think they figured out the best way forward was to bring Sara back via the LP.  I wish they had done it better and given her more time with Thea, Diggle, and her dad, but I will take what I can get.

[Lokiberry]

I don't believe they knew they were going to want Caity when they killed Sara.  Others have speculated that maybe they intended to move KC over and in hindsight that seems far more likely.  But then they realized how popular Sara was and how badly people were taking to Laurel's rise as Black Canary and I think they figured out the best way forward was to bring Sara back via the LP.  I wish they had done it better and given her more time with Thea, Diggle, and her dad, but I will take what I can get.

I don't think they ever intended to move KC. I think they planned on an Atom spinoff, and when the network said nope, they started scrambling around to get people for a team up show. THAT'S when they decided to resurrect Sara. They needed her; and since she's one of the best things about LoT, it was a good decision (as opposed to killing her off, which was a damn stupid decision that benefited no one, not even Laurel, who now has to deal with a large chunk of the fandom who don't consider her the "real" Black Canary).

[tarotx]

I think Laurel should have been hooked with ATOM and KC moved to the potential ATOM spin-off. Ray and Laurel seemed like they might have good chemistry and Ray's comic love interest was a Lawyer. I thought it could be easy to give Laurel one more middle name. Dinah Jean Laurel Lance and there you have something that kind of might sound like Jean Loring. Oh well I am glad we didn't get the ATOM spin off and we got Sara Resurrected. 

[AyChihuahua]

There's no way they planned to have Sara have a major role in a spinoff and didn't lock CL into a contract for it (which, obviously, she would know about). I don't care what they say to her or what they say in public, that is a lie.

[kismet]

I think Laurel should have been hooked with ATOM and KC moved to the potential ATOM spin-off. Ray and Laurel seemed like they might have good chemistry and Ray's comic love interest was a Lawyer. I thought it could be easy to give Laurel one more middle name. Dinah Jean Laurel Lance and there you have something that kind of might sound like Jean Loring. Oh well I am glad we didn't get the ATOM spin off and we got Sara Resurrected. 

I agree that RP & LL had chemistry.... however, by the time they had that scene, I think the ATOM show was nixed. I have no idea if I would have ever wanted to turn into the show. I definitely never would have watched the ATOM. Then again, my primary draw is Victor Garber. Perhaps, I might have tuned into it anyway, so long as VG is there. I'm actually happy how the team-up chemistry is working for the whole group. And I greatly enjoy having CL back, so it's a win win for me.

 

That being said, if they moved LL to LoT, I'm not sure she would torpedo the ship. The Hawkgirl actress is definitely worse in most of her scenes and I think crosses her arm just as much. LL/KC may benefit to get a new set of writers that actually care to write for her character. I think she is dead in the water on ARROW, and there is nothing they can do with her character. A new start may be just what the character needs. That being said, I'd be just as content with her being the newest resident of SC graveyard.

[Sakura12]

I don't think they ever intended Laurel to move to the spin off. She's basically a lost cause that they refuse to admit is a failure. I do think the decision to bring Sara back was when Ray/ATOM also failed and they still saw outrage over Sara's death throughout season 3. Then they decided add some fan favorites from Flash. 

 

They made the right decision with CL, just like on Arrow she has no problems fitting in with the rest of the cast. I actually think this is benefiting CL more than it is KC. Who probably thought with Sara on her own show people would stop comparing them and like Laurel better. When it's Sara being away from Arrow and Laurel that's getting her even more fans.

[jaytee1812]

I don't watch Arrow but I hope it's LL that is killed off. KC could actually be cast on a decent show that I could actually watch. Actually I'd say the same for EBR.

I can get my Barrowman fix on Eccleston/Tennant era Doctor Who.

[chaos is welcome]

Just watched lot and found out kinda fun. So much is stupid. Hawks, vandal savage, but really enjoy cold/heatwave. And honestly, having sara be badass made me forgive pretty much anything. CAITY lotz is just so amazing, and every move was bad ass. The line ab being able to take down bad guys after a couple joints has me rolling. I love her so much. Forever bitter she isn't on arrow, but at least she isn't still dead.

[wingster55]

Caity works well with the action sequences but they also made the right call not to give her anything heavy dramatic wise because she would just fail spectacularly. 

[Starfish35]

The Hawkgirl actress is definitely worse in most of her scenes and I think crosses her arm just as much.

The arm crossing thing.... to me it's not that specific action so much as the way KC says her lines and her lack of ability (IMO) to convey nuances/layers with her face and body language. I don't think it would be an issue If it didn't add to the already existing impression of Laurel being someone who tends to be critical and judgmental. Kendra doesn't have that issue. She hasn't been really developed much yet, but so far, to me she's just coming across as a sweet girl who's understandly overwhelmed by this whole life she's suddenly found herself dropped into. So when she crosses her arms it comes across more as a self-protective gesture (to me).

As far as Ciara Renee's acting....honestly I want to see her away from Carter/Hawkman for a few episodes before I make up my mind. I did think some of her scenes/lines in this most recent episode weren't so good, but those scenes were all with him, so.... *shrug*. I don't think she's worse than KC, but then you all know my opinion on KC's acting.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

So....rewatching the LoT pilot...again. :) I just noticed something in the Laurel/Sara sparring scene. Laurel has a scar on her upper left arm. I didn't notice that before, but if I'm remembering right, that would be the scar from the injury she got in Midnight City, that was bandaged up by Roy. If so, nice continuity by the makeup dept.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

Good point about Ciara Renee being stuck with Hawkman so we haven't seen her acting range yet, although I wasn't thrilled with her scenes with Cisco either but that could just have been the writing for Cisco Stu.

 

I don't know how CL will handle the dramatic scenes they give her on the show later but right now, she's perfect as Sara who is funny, quirky, and has chemistry with a number of the male characters.

[Starfish35]

Caity works well with the action sequences but they also made the right call not to give her anything heavy dramatic wise because she would just fail spectacularly.

I'm not going to claim Caity Lotz is the best actress in the world, but I thought she did very well with some of the dramatic stuff they gave her to handle in season two, particularly in scenes with PB and KL. The scene with Sara and her father in the Clocktower in League of Assassins was one that stands out to me as being particularly emotionally impacting.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I wouldn't call CL the best either, but she not any worse than some of the others on these shows.

I would put EBR and Candice P at the top, CL in the middle and KC, DP and Hawkgirl at the bottom for dramatic scenes.

[kismet]

For me the FLARROWVERSE actresses have 3 tiers of acting ability & execution of the material (dramatic & comedic) they are given on their shows. For me:

 

Top Tier - EBR, CP, ST

Middle Tier - WH, CL, KL

Bottom Tier - KC, DP, Hawkgirl actress

 

They might have been great in other roles, but this is how they rank out for me in their current/former ARROW roles. Writing has varied for them all, for some it has been pretty bad. The top & mid tier often elevate their material or make me feel their character's struggle even if the acting is not spectacular. The bottom tier, I often just wonder why no one hasn't figured out a way to make the characters or actresses work in that role. Because someone in the casting/filming process must have seen something, but its been multiple episodes and even 4 years for some of them & still I'm left wondering how they were the ones chosen for their roles over other actresses.

[Velocity23]

Every young actor/actress on CW is hired for their looks.

[Velocity23]

I find it weird since she is 31 and people still say young. For me young its usually actresses just starting out. I barely see Willa and EBR as young actresses and they are the youngest of the bunch. With Willa having much more acting experience than EBR.

 

I feel Grant has been good. But right now he seems stuck. Or maybe i just hate Barry and his drama queen tendencies.

[bijoux]

I find it weird since she is 31 and people still say young. For me young its usually actresses just starting out. I barely see Willa and EBR as young actresses and they are the youngest of the bunch. With Willa having much more acting experience than EBR.

 

Hey, I'm 32 and consider myself young! :) I get what you're saying, but JtV is Rodriguez' first big break, so I get how she gets labelled as a young actress. Plus, she reads younger. I have no problem believing she's in her early 20s.