Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Guest]

Eh. You can't blame people for comparing the two since the show basically started the comparison anyway. They're always going to be compared. It's just the way it is. 

[Sakura12]

Everyone on LoT has a suit, special weapons, wings, super powers and Sara has sticks. But she still manages to look the most dangerous out of the bunch. 

[Primal Slayer]

I'm fine with comparisons between the two but pitting the two against each other and using them to put the other down is tiring whenever it happens. It's old and played out to me.

[hogwash]

The show had Felicity do it so I think we're pretty in the clear... They want us to compare them. And think Laurel is better(?) or something but that's another story... "Light inside you that Sara didn't." Bleh.

[Starfish35]

"You have a light inside of you that Sara never had." (Will never forgive)

[hogwash]

S03 used Felicity for evil. 

[Starfish35]

True. Though I have a hard time holding it against Felicity when I feel like she was just basically a writer mouthpiece in that scene. :(

[Morrigan2575]

http://m.ign.com/articles/2015/01/14/arrow-katie-cassidy-on-what-to-expect-from-laurel-as-black-canary

Cassidy: In Season 3, you'll see Laurel go from avenging her sister to honoring her sister to then becoming her

Yeah, sorry I'm perfectly entitled to compare Buckles to Canary. Not my problem that Buckles always ends up on the losing side of that equation.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

Oh yeah. They want the audience to like a character? Use Felicity to do it. They'll throw her under the bus no problems because they think she can do just about anything and people will still like her. Newsflash. She can't and they don't. S3 definitely did damage to Felicity's character and it was in service to everyone else but her. SMH. RAGE.

[Delphi]

My biggest issue with the photos is the batons because none of them appear to have the rubber padding where you hold them and Damn would that start to hurt your hands.

[way2interested]

One thing that I thought was interesting is that the Flash does almost the same thing with Cisco. Need to get the audience distrust Harry? Have Cisco not be comfortable with him. Need audiences to like Ray? Pair him with Cisco. Need audiences to like Barry/Patty and Jay/Caitlin? Have Cisco joke and support both couples. Need to introduce a new character for LoT since Felicity is being used to reintroduce Ray? Make her Cisco new's temporary love interest. Difference here is they always kept Cisco Cisco, and they greatly diminished the amount of time that Kendra and Cisco had together compared to Ray/Felicity.

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure how that would work with Sara's, because IIRC it's one staff that can be separated into batons.

ETA: Oh yeah, Cisco is definitely The Flash's Felicity.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Starfish35

[hogwash]

One thing that I thought was interesting is that the Flash does almost the same thing with Cisco. Need to get the audience distrust Harry? Have Cisco not be comfortable with him. Need audiences to like Ray? Pair him with Cisco. Need audiences to like Barry/Patty and Jay/Caitlin? Have Cisco joke and support both couples. Need to introduce a new character for LoT since Felicity is being used to reintroduce Ray? Make her Cisco new's temporary love interest. Difference here is they always kept Cisco Cisco, and they greatly diminished the amount of time that Kendra and Cisco had together compared to Ray/Felicity.

 

Cisco is totally S02 Felicity. 

[Delphi]

Oh I for got that it was a separating staff, that explains that. But still...ouch.

[kismet]

One thing that I thought was interesting is that the Flash does almost the same thing with Cisco. Need to get the audience distrust Harry? Have Cisco not be comfortable with him. Need audiences to like Ray? Pair him with Cisco. Need audiences to like Barry/Patty and Jay/Caitlin? Have Cisco joke and support both couples. Need to introduce a new character for LoT since Felicity is being used to reintroduce Ray? Make her Cisco new's temporary love interest. Difference here is they always kept Cisco Cisco, and they greatly diminished the amount of time that Kendra and Cisco had together compared to Ray/Felicity.

The funniest thing... is I totally get what you are saying because I saw the same pattern. Yet I love FS and could really take or leave Cisco, and I think that comes down to 2 things - acting & writing. And on ARROW I think EBR's acting & the show's writing is far superior to Cisco & the FLASH. At least they spent the seasons she was on fleshing out the character.  If I rewind my mind to FS in s2 at the same point as Cisco is now, I will say that I knew far more about her character both good and bad than I know about Cisco. And frankly, I'm OKAY with that - I have no interest to learn more about Cisco.

[Primal Slayer]

http://m.ign.com/articles/2015/01/14/arrow-katie-cassidy-on-what-to-expect-from-laurel-as-black-canary

Yeah, sorry I'm perfectly entitled to compare Buckles to Canary. Not my problem that Buckles always ends up on the losing side of that equation.

Im glad that no one is saying you aren't.

[way2interested]

The thing is, Felicity seems to be more an audience surrogate (in terms of she and Diggle usually state things that we would be thinking), while Cisco comes off as a writer surrogate (saying things that we don't necessarily think but that the writers think and want to say). Both, I feel, work in certain cases (like Cisco's enthusiasm with metahumans, powers, and occasional meta-humor or Felicity's jokes, reactions, and speeches to Oliver) and don't work in others (Cisco's extended arc towards Vibe or using Felicity to prop up other characters and story lines). Because Cisco feels more like a personification of the writers, I cannot take him as personally or as seriously as the other characters. Because Felicity feels more like a personification of the general audience, I take her a bit too seriously and cannot allow the writers to use her to their own advantage.

 

Edited to Add: kismet, you be reading my mind!

Edited December 17, 2015 by way2interested

[Starfish35]

Oh I for got that it was a separating staff, that explains that. But still...ouch.

Well Sara IS all "pain and I came to an understanding." So maybe it's not an issue for her?

[looptab]

Now I'm just confused with the symbols being used for the Legends. I thought Sara's was a feather in a circle, but now I see it's a bird. Unless that feather was from some other thing not at all related to LoT? i believe Sakura had it as avatar for a while..please enlighten me :)

[Sakura12]

They had original symbols then changed most them. They went from a white feather to giving Sara, Comic Black Canary's symbol. 

[looptab]

Oh, good. I'm not following news for Legends closely, so I thought for a moment that that feather I saw around the internet was for something else. Thank you for answering me :)

[way2interested]

WIRED released new promotion for BvS about Lex Luthor and LexCorp. 

 

http://www.wired.com/brandlab/2015/12/lexical-analysis-lex-luthor-on-disrupting-the-vigilante-industrial-complex/

 

Attaching link because infographic reveals that 

Queen Industries and its "aloof, often absent CEO" exist in the universe

[hogwash]

What are the odds BvS won't be horrible? Man of Steel killed my interest. That freaking tornado scene. Plus, the Jesus thing is still happening. Jesus actually helped people, Zach Snyder. It was a big part of his thing. 

[foreverevolving]

They had original symbols then changed most them. They went from a white feather to giving Sara, Comic Black Canary's symbol. 

 

For real?

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, I pointed it out in the Sara thread on LoT forum and I think here as well

[Sakura12]

For real?

 

Yep, it's hilarious how much more in common Sara has with comic Black Canary. As I pointed out, everyone else on LoT has Powers, special suits or weapons or wings. It's Sara's martial arts prowess that makes her special. Yes, comic BC has the Canary Cry, but it's her being one of the best martial artists that really makes her stand out. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

For real?

She has 2 and they gave 1 to Sara.

[EmeraldArcher]

So, is Oliver controlling Ray Palmer's arms? Because last season, Ray needed to give control over his body to Oliver just so he could throw a punch at a bad guy who had Felicity. Seriously, Ray's stance is completely off for his punch pose.

 

I think that's the problem you guys have noticed when comparing Laurel's BC pose to Sara's WC one.  Sara's pose displays potential energy in the way she squats into her pose ready to strike, whereas Laurel gives the impression of following a photographer's instructions: "That's right, now bring your back arm up just a tad and relax your face. Good. Now, hold it. Good. Got the shot. You can relax now."

[Sakura12]

The other problem with Laurel's pose which I noticed a lot in her fighting is she leaves her body way too open. Sara has her arm raised above her head but it's close to her body and her other arm also close to her body is ready to block. Laurel is always swinging high and wide, which leaves her entire body open for an easy attack. She needs to learn to keep her body contained, you want to make yourself as small a target as possible. I don't know if they are doing that showcase she's not a proficient fighter or that she's using a weapon that is meant for subduing suspects and not for combat. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[way2interested]

So, is Oliver controlling Ray Palmer's arms? Because last season, Ray needed to give control over his body to Oliver just so he could throw a punch at a bad guy who had Felicity. Seriously, Ray's stance is completely off for his punch pose.

 

I think that's the problem you guys have noticed when comparing Laurel's BC pose to Sara's WC one.  Sara's pose displays potential energy in the way she squats into her pose ready to strike, whereas Laurel gives the impression of following a photographer's instructions: "That's right, now bring your back arm up just a tad and relax your face. Good. Now, hold it. Good. Got the shot. You can relax now."

For Ray in 319, I just figured that, after Oliver controlled Ray for a few seconds, Ray got the feel of the proper position/technique and adrenaline took over to save himself and Felicity. Now, for 406, Ray's ability to fight completely baffled me. I had no idea where he learned how to fight. The last time he used his suit was 322, and even then he was flying and using blasters, not physically fighting.

 

For other techniques, I agree. I believe that portraying an actor/character as a fighter all comes down to two things: positioning and confidence. Positioning in terms of using a fighting technique/stance that complements the actor or stunt double. CL's character focuses on power and strength, using hard force in her moves. WH's character focuses on speed and agility, using her small stance to weave around her attackers rather than attacking them directly. CH's character, also comparably small, used parkour and agility against attackers rather than direct fighting. DR's character uses weapons and brute force because of his size. KL's character uses agility and weapons because of her comparably smaller size. JB's and SA's characters use a mix of force and agility due to their characters' sizes and experiences. Heck, even EBR's character uses a mix between self-defense and some form of force. Basically, each character's "fighting style" combines the body type of the character along with the skills that that character has.

 

Side note: I wonder how Hawkgirl's going to do in battle. She just learned to fight and fly, are they going to give her an adjusting period in her training as well?

 

However, I feel like they are a bit disjointed when it comes to Laurel. I understand that KC does have strength and muscles, but in the context of the show we are somewhat unable to see it. The other characters have adjusted fighting styles due to their superficial physical attributes. For instance, even if DR could do backflips like no tomorrow, we wouldn't see it on the show because visually large does not equal agile, likewise with the idea that we wouldn't ever see Roy brutally knock someone down because he was significantly smaller than the other men on the show and smaller does not equal brute force. So, instead of focusing on brute force, like CL's Canary, the show should have done another take on Laurel's fighting style. Even in instances of fighting before she was BC, Laurel's fighting style was just surprise attacks and self-defense.

 

I liked in instances in s3 and s4 when Laurel's fighting just focused on the element of surprised and a well-placed punch. Anything that showed her having a surprising amount of strength just turned me off because I just couldn't rationalize how Laurel would get that kind of strength. I get that Laurel can't go the full agility route that Thea has, but if they could focus on another aspect of fighting that doesn't involve the brute strength and force that Oliver, Diggle, and Sara bring into a battle, I think it would go along way.

 

Another aspect is confidence, which I think is easily gained with experience. WH just gained it really quick I believe just because she was really excited to be placed in action scenes. Even if she does absolutely none of the stunts, I can still believe it because of the way she carries herself during her shots or after a battle scene. With KC, I feel like there's a bit of inconsistency between the way that she vs. her stunt double carry themselves along with some inconsistency with how she originally carried herself in fights. In the beginning of s3, she showed complete determination (which I did appreciate) in one scene, ineptness in another,agility in one scene, brute strength in another. She's trying her best to do what the script probably says with some form of confidence but it all comes off inconsistent and kind of unearned. It's the same kind of feeling I get with Supergirl, her fighting style just seems a bit off to me (since she doesn't have much fight training at all, but she's somehow manage to almost beat her sister after a few episodes), but at least I believe aspects of it because she does have superhuman strength, and occasionally she just uses her powers instead of physically fighting, like Barry.

 

In short, I hope they find a fighting style that is unique and perfect for Laurel, without trying to give her both aspects of strength and agility that each uniquely work for the other characters.

[Primal Slayer]

From interviews, it seems like Kendra will have a bit of a double personality or at least in the sense that when she gets into fighting mode, who she was in her past life takes over. Though that could change since Hawkman also wasn't in the picture originally.

[Starfish35]

It's probably silly, but I've started to worry that my expectations for Hawkgirl are going to be colored by having watched Justice League/JLU this summer. Realistically I know Shayera and Kendra are different characters, but I'm afraid I'm going to end up being disappointed in Kendra for not being Shayera. I'm hoping that doesn't happen and I can just appreciate her for who she is. I keep thinking, though, that it might be easier to do if Carter wasn't in the picture. :(

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense. :(

[way2interested]

It's probably silly, but I've started to worry that my expectations for Hawkgirl are going to be colored by having watched Justice League/JLU this summer. Realistically I know Shayera and Kendra are different characters, but I'm afraid I'm going to end up being disappointed in Kendra for not being Shayera. I'm hoping that doesn't happen and I can just appreciate her for who she is. I keep thinking, though, that it might be easier to do if Carter wasn't in the picture. :(

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense. :(

It makes complete sense! My least favorite arc in the entire JLU series was the Hawkman arc, and I was not looking forward to it coming up in live action in 408 (and what do you know, I still didn't like it). I get that shows can be different and one does not directly affect the other, but come on! Hawkgirl was pretty good in that series, and knowing that Carter was coming into LoT as a main character definitely took a downturn with how much I was looking forward to her character. All I keep thinking about is an arc that I did not like at all.

[Primal Slayer]

I totally understand since I had/have the same fears. JL/JLU is the definitive version of the character for me and I was already disappointed that they didn't start out with her being an alien. I rather they had added Hawkman later down the road instead of changing their initial story to fit him into it, I wanted to see Hawkgirl on her own before having to deal with her significant other. It is the same problem they seem to never learn from, they are always so quick to bring in the "end game"

Edited December 18, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Velocity23]

 

Matt Nable will return as Ra's al Ghul in the ninth episode of DC's Legends of Tomorrow, ComicBook.com has learned and confirmed with WB/CW.

It's unclear whether Ra's will have somehow survived his apparent death at the end of Arrow's third season or whether his appearance will be the result of time-travel. We do know, however, that characters from around the world of Arrow and The Flash will be appearing in Legends, so it's not entirely surprising to see a character as major as Ra's explored.

Damien Darhk, another long-lived villain who has bad history with Ra's, will also appear on Legends of Tomorrow, actor Neal McDonough confirmed for ComicBook.com recently. Whether the two appearances will be related is also unknown at this point.

http://comicbook.com/2015/12/16/matt-nables-ras-al-ghul-coming-to-dcs-legends-of-tomorrow/

So episode 9 of LOT will see a return of Matt Nable as RAG.

[Starfish35]

knowing that Carter was coming into LoT as a main character definitely took a downturn with how much I was looking forward to her character.

Same here. I wasn't fond of Hawkman on JLU either, and while I know it's not fair, my excitement and interest for Hawkgirl took a huge hit when I found out they were making him a regular. I'm still hoping he gets killed off early.  

I rather they had added Hawkman later down the road instead of changing their initial story to fit him into it, I wanted to see Hawkgirl on her own before having to deal with her significant other. It is the same problem they seem to never learn from, they are always so quick to bring in the "end game"

Exactly. I figured Hawkman would show up sooner or later, but not as a regular team member. I wanted to get to know Kendra as her own character, not as half of a centuries long soulmate pairing. :(

[bijoux]

http://comicbook.com/2015/12/16/matt-nables-ras-al-ghul-coming-to-dcs-legends-of-tomorrow/

So episode 9 of LOT will see a return of Matt Nable as RAG.

 

They're welcome to have him.

[looptab]

Didn't we know about Ra's appearance already? Was it from BTS or media articles? 

[kismet]

Didn't we know about Ra's appearance already? Was it from BTS or media articles? 

I feel like it was after one of the cons. But it's not new information... it's been around for awhile.

[tv echo]

Lexi Alexander ‏@Lexialex

10 years of directing fighting mayhem but tonight will be the first time I get to direct it with a female lead. *sheds tear* #Supergirl

2:01 PM - 18 Dec 2015

https://twitter.com/Lexialex/status/677971857270685698

[tarotx]

Didn't we know about Ra's appearance already? Was it from BTS or media articles? 

 

I feel like it was after one of the cons. But it's not new information... it's been around for awhile.

It was at a con that Matt said he was going to be on LOT. He actually did say episode nine if I'm not mistaken. I had forgotten though. 

[way2interested]

I wonder if the fact that the episode is also called "Left Behind" has anything to do with anything in terms of the Arrowverse. MG acknowledged that they're aware that it was already the title of an Arrow episode, but I wonder if that coincidence is where the connections end.

 

A bit of switching topics, but does anyone else who watches multiple superhero shows have like a ranking of how the shows did for their midseason finales? I'm not talking actual ratings, or like a worst to best list, I'm just talking personal preferences or like a pro/con list of how each did in your opinions. Whenever I try to find someone who actually tries to analyze the qualities of the finales, it just seems to come off as extremely biased (like SourceFedNerd's Superhero Roundup and their affinity with the Flash). I just wanted to throw it out here for discussion to see what people on this board thought.

[tarotx]

I had forgotten that Arrow season 3.10 was called Left behind. 

[Sakura12]

I think LoT's will be more literal. Someone from the team is going to be left behind in the past. They said they would lose characters but not always through death. Plus it's a time travel show, do you know how many times the Stargate team was left behind and rescued in the same episode. Doctor Who has done that too. 

[Primal Slayer]

Even though it is a very minor the change, I am glad they put that necklace thing on Hawkgirl, or maybe it's just the pose, but she looks less ridiculous in her official picture then she does in the group shot from the crossover.

[Starfish35]

The leather of their suits looks darker in the official pics, but for some reason in the crossover it looked like cheap gold plastic, especially Hawkgirl's. I really hope it looks better on LoT.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[FurryFury]

Sakura and Starfish, with you guys changing your userpics to Sara and her symbol, I'm seriously thinking about completing the trifecta (I am, unfortunately, lazy enough to not go look for a fitting picture. So if anyone has an idea, feel free to PM me! SL for the win!)

 

As for the ep title - I suggest everyone to not look into it that much. It's just a title.

[Starfish35]

I was just looking at pictures of comics Hawkgirl. She always has a mace, and LoT!Hawkgirl doesn't.

I may be reaching, but I wonder if the reason is that Hawkman is going to die, and she's going to be carrying his mace. It might also explain why Hawkman's mace looks a little smaller than I might have expected.

[calliope1975]

A bit of switching topics, but does anyone else who watches multiple superhero shows have like a ranking of how the shows did for their midseason finales? I'm not talking actual ratings, or like a worst to best list, I'm just talking personal preferences or like a pro/con list of how each did in your opinions. Whenever I try to find someone who actually tries to analyze the qualities of the finales, it just seems to come off as extremely biased (like SourceFedNerd's Superhero Roundup and their affinity with the Flash). I just wanted to throw it out here for discussion to see what people on this board thought.

 

Let's see - I don't have rankings, per say, but here are my thoughts.

 

Arrow - I was quite pleased even with the downer ending. I was so severely disappointed with the crossover, and "Dark Waters" not only made me forget the previous episode, but got me excited for what happens next. I'm an Olicity OTPer, so simply because of that, this was a huge favorite.

 

The Flash - I like The Flash, but I'm not invested as much and tend to forget the episodes once they're over. Wally West is my favorite Flash ever so I liked his introduction. I was looking forward to Jay Garrick showing up but have found him to be unmemorable and pointless. I have no idea what their plan is for Iris, and it seems like TPTB don't either. However, I'm curious if/when Wally becomes Flash and I want to see Zoom play out, so I am looking forward to next year, but I'm not counting down the days to it's return.

 

Supergirl - I hate the love triangle, and while they've pulled back on it, I doubt it's over. I also hate that Supes kind of looms over the show since they can't use him. I want the focus solely on Kara. I loved the Martian Manhunter reveal and want to see where that goes, and I really hope they don't undo Cat figuring out Kara is Supergirl. The VOTW, including her aunt, just seem juvenile to me, but I'm watching it more for Kara, her sister, and Cat Grant, so if they can keep that up, I'll be happy.

 

M:AOS - I was sooooooooooo happy they killed off Grant and so pleased they had the balls to do it since that character had well outlived his welcome and use. However, I wasn't surprised they kept the actor, and he has gotten a million times more interesting once he was revealed to be evil. I really like the team aspect and how they can move the focus around to the different spin offs yet still maintain the spotlight on everyone. That's hard to do with such a big cast. I hope they dig more into Lash's motivations since he doesn't seem to be matching up much with his comic counterpart. Overall, I thought it was a great midpoint end. 

 

iZombie - I miss Peyton, need more Ravi, and don't like the back and forth between Liv and Major. 

 

Gotham - I quit watching midway through S1 so I've got nothing. :D

[Chaser]

I only watched Arrow, AOS and The Flash.

As much as I liked Arrow, I have to give the best mid season finale to AOS. They killed Ward. And yes, I called the twist as soon as Ward died but I'm so interested in this next development. Dalton is so creepy. I'm just loving AOS this season.

Arrow was great but their twist is clearly a fake out.

The Flash was fine as an episode but weak as a mid-season finale.

Edited December 20, 2015 by 10Eleven12