Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Chaser]

I thought they were fake

[apinknightmare]

I thought Metropolis was supposed to be New York.

 

Gotham is supposed to be a stand-in for New York. Metropolis is Chicago-esque. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Gotham = NYC

Metropolis = Chicago

Bluthaven = New Jersey (so not funny DC)

I always thought Star City = LA because of Hollywood but it seems like SC is San Francisco.

Coast City is definitely somewhere in Southern California (I Think)

Edited November 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

Gross Bulletproof coffee pitch on Supergirl.

 

I always thought Star City = LA because of Hollywood but it seems like SC is San Francisco.

I was told by some EXTREMELY condescending people on IMDB that it's Seattle, and that I am an idiot for doubting it.

 

As a native Seattleite, I'd just say no in every way except maybe geography.

Edited November 10, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Sakura12]

I figured Star City was in Seattle for Arrow.

In the movie verse Chicago as used as Gotham for the first movie. Now it's Detroit and we're Metropolis for Barman v Superman.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Gross Bulletproof coffee pitch on Supergirl.

Yeah, what was with that?

Got a question. I'm probably just being nitpicky, but why do we never see Kara using super speed? (Unless she's flying) I guess it's just years of Smallville and seeing Clark use superspeed for everything, but it just seems weird that we never see Kara ever use superspeed for anything. Did they use up all the budget on her flying?

[Sakura12]

Why would she run when she can fly?

Smallville Clark had to run because he couldn't fly.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Gross Bulletproof coffee pitch on Supergirl.

I was told by some EXTREMELY condescending people on IMDB that it's Seattle, and that I am an idiot for doubting it.

As a native Seattleite, I'd just say no in every way except maybe geography.

It's Seattle for Arrow. GA in the nu52 and under Grell in the 80's was set in Seattle not Star City. However, comics wise the concensus seems to be Star City = San Francisco (although it's been all over the map, including Massachusetts at one point).

I only know this because I got involved in a discussion on a comics site about the use of fake cities in DC vs real places in Marvel. I came down on the Marvel side, I like having comics set in identifiable locations, it adds a bit of realism.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

I get that geographically it's where Seattle is, but it is in NO WAY anything like the actual city.  Seattle is wealthy, pretty low-crime, really technologically advanced, really polite, very active, and has great outdoor spaces, etc.  The city put in an edible park a few years ago, for god's sake, in which they planted all kinds of trees and plants that people can come in and just gather.  It's kind of a techie hippie paradise.  NOTHING like grimdark Star[ling] City.  

[Starfish35]

Why would she run when she can fly?

Smallville Clark had to run because he couldn't fly.

She can't fly everywhere. And we used to see Clark (in both L&C and Smallville) using superspeed for things other than getting around. I don't know - it just seems weird at times like seeing her walk down the corridor after her sister had been kidnapped. *shrug* Maybe it's just me.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

It's always been my understanding that BOTH Metropolis and Gotham were originally written as New York City.  Just mirrors of each other.  The dark underbelly vs a modern marvel.  Then they started sharing a universe.  In the last few Superman movies, Metropolis was absolutely New York City and while the Dark Knight filmed using Chicago as a stand in, the way the city was laid out with bridges connecting islands and boroughs, again, it's clearly New York and the TV show Gotham, it is in New York.

 

Smallviille is an aberration that we can ignore because there is NO WAY that Metropolis is in Kansas. On Lois & Clark, it was the big city on the East coast.

 

I think in the shared comic universe both Gotham and Metropolis are on the East Coast still.  So make of that as you will. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

Because the internet is never wrong, this is wikipedia's take:

 

 

Within the DC Universe, Metropolis is depicted as one of the largest and wealthiest cities on Earth, having a population of nearly 11 million citizens.[5] The skyline and most of the notable landmarks in Metropolis are based on real-life landmarks in New York City.[2] Metropolis is nicknamed "The Big Apricot," just as New York City is nicknamed "The Big Apple."[6] Frank Miller has said that "Metropolis is New York in the daytime; Gotham City is New York at night."[7]

[statsgirl]

Erica Durrance was on one of those Fun Facts on TV things about Joe Shuster basing Metropolis on Toronto when he created Superman, which is why the newspaper is called The Daily Planet.

I'll take the idea that once DC got hold of it, Metropolis turned into New York.  It's can't be Chicago because I don't remember huge amounts of civic corruption.

 

Wow, I hated the Bulletproof coffee thing on Supergirl. That's not even an easter egg, it's a mess on the floor.

 

Otherwise, not as good as last week but still acceptable.

[AyChihuahua]

Tonight was my first Supergirl episode, and I wasn't really a fan.

[lemotomato]

Gross Bulletproof coffee pitch on Supergirl.

I was told by some EXTREMELY condescending people on IMDB that it's Seattle, and that I am an idiot for doubting it.

 

As a native Seattleite, I'd just say no in every way except maybe geography.

As a native San Franciscan that has visited Seattle, I agree that Star(ling) City's grittiness reminds me more of my hometown. Chinese Triads are actually a thing here and there used to be neighborhoods that were pretty Glades-like, although they're slowly being gentrified.

[bijoux]

I have nothing to add, really, except to say thank you for The Big Apricot. *giggle*

[Morrigan2575]

As a native San Franciscan that has visited Seattle, I agree that Star(ling) City's grittiness reminds me more of my hometown. Chinese Triads are actually a thing here and there used to be neighborhoods that were pretty Glades-like, although they're slowly being gentrified.

I think the show people only say Seattle because they film in Vancouver so it's the same weather type and the GA titles have been set in Seattle at various points.  However, it's still a fictional city, they're not trying to pretend they're in Seattle and they only say Seattle when asked for a reference by fans.

[tv echo]

Yet another article questioning the effect of setting up LoT on Arrow and Flash...

 

Constantine Came to Arrow, But Is All the DC's Legends of Tomorrow Set-Up Stealing the Show?
by BILLY NILLES Wed., Nov. 4, 2015 6:00 PM PST
http://www.eonline.com/news/713111/constantine-came-to-arrow-but-is-all-the-dc-s-legends-of-tomorrow-set-up-stealing-the-show

[nksarmi]

You know I have to say that I don't get all the bitching about the LoT setup (not saying anyone is wrong to bitch - just that I don't understand it).  I know I'm alone here, but for goodness sake, what would we be getting if they weren't doing the setup for LoT?

 

Arrow season one's plot largely worked because a) the flashbacks mattered a lot and b) there was an endless pool of minor bad guys for Oliver to address in the book before dealing with Merlyn's Undertaking.  Frankly, I think they could have stretched the plot even more in hindsight.  I think that was easily the best, tightest season Arrow has had and the show has suffered by following the same formula since.

 

Arrow season two was almost as good because the actors (Sara and Slade in particular) made good work of a weaker overall plot.  But in season two, Oliver actually HAS information already (the cure) that he should have revealed a lot earlier but the structure of the flashbacks demanded that he stupidly held on to that secret longer than he should have.  He also damn well knows that Slade is crazy and gunning for him but never warns says "ok mom, I lied, I wasn't alone on the island the whole time and this guy is one of the dudes I met there and he is nutzo, crazy, and will hurt anyone I love.  I'm not going to give you more details but could you maybe avoid the hell out of him please?"  And of course mommy Queen is no better because she just says "Oliver watch out for the girl, I don't trust her" rather than saying "hey Ollie, your dad totally cheated on me with that chick and I think she might be looking to take us down so be careful about anything she gives you to sign, ok?"

 

So while I really did like season two of Arrow, the writing stupidity was already raising its ugly head and then it came on like a roaring dragon in season three. 

 

Once we accept the fact that the writers have not come up with a solid season long plot since season one, I think we should question if they can do it again. So while Darkh seems like a great villain to have around, having him just brewing in the background right now while they setup Legends actually might make the pacing of the entire season flow better.  Because maybe with all these early setup episodes (which have largely been a lot of fun in my opinion), maybe we won't have to have issues later in the season where we are wondering why information didn't come out earlier.  They can spend these episodes planting seeds (like Diggle's brother's file) that will come to fruition later and we basically get "filer" episodes that don't feel like "filer" because they are LoT setup instead.

 

Plus think of it this way, if we weren't getting LoT setup - we might be getting a whole lot more Laurel. :P

Edited November 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[apinknightmare]

I wouldn't mind the LoT setup so much if it seemed like there was some thought put into character motivation on Arrow, specifically. I can't speak for the Ray storyline since we haven't really seen much of it, but we all knew that last year when he 'sploded himself that he was coming back in some way or another, so, we'll see how that goes. It is true that the writers seem to struggle with season-long arcs post season 1. We're going to get filler episodes anyway, although I'd prefer that those fillers go to people who are actually going to stay on the show, but whatever. 

 

As for what we have seen, we got four episodes of this lazy-ass, crazy-ass resurrection storyline for no other reason than because Sara needed to come back for LoT. If they had taken some time to develop it, and given Laurel any kind of motivation other than because she wanted Sara alive - hell, just some kind of nagging feeling that she couldn't shake that Sara was in trouble (or something) would've been better than what we got. So we're left with a story that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and doesn't really make anyone look all that good. I mean, my preferred method of dealing with the whole Lance family would be to put them all on a rocket headed straight for the sun, but if I'm gonna have to watch them, I prefer that it make some sense. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Sakura12]

You know I have to say that I don't get all the bitching about the LoT setup.  I know I'm alone here, but for goodness sake, what would we be getting if they weren't doing the setup for LoT?

 

You are not alone. I'm only here for the LoT set up. 

 

While Season 2 of Arrow had it's problems, it was my favorite season because it gave me Sara and Slade. I loved seeing Sara and Oliver fight crime together, I loved their connection to the island and big bad of the season in Slade. Withholding information is kind of their thing and it was stupid but overall it was an enjoyable ride. Season 3 was a big nope for me and it doesn't appear I missed much by not watching. 

 

If it wasn't for Sara, I wouldn't even be watching Arrow this season. I haven't added it back to my DVR and only started watching the episode Sara showed up in. 

 

Flash doesn't anger me like Arrow does, I watch it because it's entertaining and fun. Not because I think it's a great television accomplishment that most reviewers seem to think it is. I also think I like it because I enjoy watching almost all of the actors. 

[nksarmi]

I wouldn't mind the LoT setup so much if it seemed like there was some thought put into character motivation on Arrow, specifically. I can't speak for the Ray storyline since we haven't really seen much of it, but we all knew that last year when he 'sploded himself that he was coming back in some way or another, so, we'll see how that goes. It is true that the writers seem to struggle with season-long arcs post season 1. We're going to get filler episodes anyway, although I'd prefer that those fillers go to people who are actually going to stay on the show, but whatever. 

 

We got four episodes of this lazy-ass, crazy-ass resurrection storyline for no other reason than because Sara needed to come back for LoT. If they had taken some time to develop it, and given Laurel any kind of motivation other than because she wanted Sara alive - hell, just some kind of nagging feeling that she couldn't shake that Sara was in trouble (or something) would've been better than what we got. So we're left with a story that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and doesn't really make anyone look all that good. I mean, my preferred method of dealing with the whole Lance family would be to put them all on a rocket headed straight for the sun, but if I'm gonna have to watch them, I prefer that it make some sense. 

 

I think they could have done the resurrection better, but frankly, I have just come to the conclusion that someone on the writing teams hates KC/Laurel and keeps selling these horrible ideas as "the best thing ever" and does such a good job of it that the team keeps buying into it.  Because there is just NO way they have written this character this poorly for this long and aren't doing it on purpose.  I mean, if they were trying to make us like her at some point they would have done a good plot just out of dumb luck.  But from the awful moment she slept with Oliver in season one and Tommy caught them to her drinking problem and self-pity story in season two to the awful way she because BC in season three and the lying to her dad to the resurrection plot this season - I mean shit, somebody HAS to hate her.

 

So accepting that someone is trying to make Laurel look bad on purpose has just led me to deal with whatever crap they give us.  I mean, they could fix her if they wanted to - fans here have come up with dozens and dozens of ways they could fix this character (fans did the same thing with Phoebe on Charmed as her character continued to tank post season three) or at least make the character more tolerable.  But since they don't want to do that - I will ignore Laurel as often as I can and hope they minimize the scenes that make me want to throw something at the TV (I can't believe they literally gave her a "what about me moment!" lol - this shit has to be on purpose right??!?!?!).

[Morrigan2575]

Once we accept the fact that the writers have not come up with a solid season long plot since season one, I think we should question if they can do it again.

 

One could very easily argue that the reason Arrow can't do a season long story since S1 is because it's been used as a lauchpad for spin-offs.  S2 they dedicated 2 episodes 8/9 just for the Flash spin-off and 20 was supposed to be the backdoor pilot which was scrapped by The CW after viewing getting an early look at 208.  So Arrow had to rearrange some of the back half since it no longer had to set up Flash and in-fact was still used to incorporate the Flarrowverse since 219 (I think) introduced Cisco/Caitlin.

 

S3 was the year of the Palmer/ATOM spin-off (which ended up being LOT).  Berlanti started pitching the ATOM spin-off as early as July (that we know of) but probably had talks about it prior since the casting of BR was deliberate.

 

S4 you pretty much lost episodes, 2-8 to LOT setup.  Whatever stories they have for Diggle/HIVE and Felicity (other than Ray) have been shelved until 409 (at the earliest).  So really Arrow S4 is basically 1/3 LOT setup and 2/3 Arrow.

[tarotx]

I think S1 had just as many Character set ups like the Huntress for example. Not much different than the Barry stuff in season 2 and the Sara stuff now hasn't even been about Sara but Thea and Laurel and a bit Nyssa and Malcolm. Sara hasn't even spoken a coherent line yet. Ray last season was an issue because they separated him in tone and not just away from the pack. He was already a spin off inside Arrow. 

[Sakura12]

Were they pushed back or did they not have a season long arc planned? The LoT spin off makes them able to span out their arcs for the whole season. 

 

I agree with nksarmi the LoT spin off is just taking the place of filler episodes.  They were not going to reveal the whole Hive plot by now, nor were they going to introduce Felicity's father this early, especially if he's connected to the Hive Plot. You'd most likely be getting lame villain of week plots until they were ready to move forward with Hive and Darhk. Which would've started to amp towards the mid season, which is just what they are doing now that the LoT spin off is over. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by Sakura12

[Guest]

I wouldn't mind the LoT set-up if it had long lasting consequences and character growth/developments for characters on Arrow but so far, Laurel resurrected her sister in the worst way possible, was basically responsible for several deaths as a result, and came out of it smelling of roses. That's it. She didn't learn anything. She didn't accept responsibility. She just blamed Oliver for her poor choices. WTF.

 

I can't speak for the Ray part of the set-up because we haven't seen much of it so far but I'm slightly more hopeful that this will bring up some issues that Oliver/Felicity have to deal with in their relationship, even if it's just for one episode. Not to mention it sounds like we'll be seeing a different side to Felicity in her frantic search for Ray. If I learn new things about characters, great. That's what I want.

 

Aside from that though, I feel like the EP's promised things that we're not seeing yet and I don't like it, especially when MG said the first 9 episodes won't be setting up the spin-off and that is very obviously a complete lie. I'm happy for people who are enjoying this set-up though but I'm more than ready for it to be over already.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Guest

[tv echo]

Felicity mention by GG on Flash set (warning: potential spoilers in rest of article?)...

 

The Flash scoop: Who is Zoom?
BY NATALIE ABRAMS  Posted November 9 2015 — 8:18 PM EST
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/09/flash-zoom-identity-spoilers

The big question, though, is exactly who is Zoom? The theories fly fast on set. “I think it’s Felicity [Emily Bett Rickards],” Gustin jokes of Barry’s former Arrow flame. “A lot of people think it’s Henry Allen [John Wesley Shipp], some people think It’s Eddie Thawne [Rick Cosnett], some people think it’s Barry from Earth-Two.” Panabaker concurs: “I love the idea of it being Earth-Two Barry Allen. Selfishly, as actors, how fun would it be to get to do both extremes?”

Edited November 10, 2015 by tv echo

[Carrie Ann]

I wouldn't mind the LoT setup so much if it seemed like there was some thought put into character motivation on Arrow, specifically.

 

Yep. I said something about this on the LoT forum already, but prior to the season, I was (cautiously) looking forward to the Sara and Ray parts of 4A. And then when the Sara part was immediately a bust--on a character and story level on Arrow, the show I am currently watching--I was like, "Okay, never mind, let's just get this over with." Because it was very clear to me that the writers knew they had these Point Bs to get to, and they hadn't taken time to think about all the waypoints or reasons or motivations, like, AT ALL. We've already talked about the myriad ways they could have made very, very minor tweaks in order to not make LL look like a thoughtless, selfish person in this storyline and they simply didn't bother. I don't find it thrilling to watch half-assed storytelling and bad characterization and I think that's what we're getting out of the LoT setup so far.

 

So! I certainly hope they handle the Ray part better and that it's more fun to watch. But I don't think it's out of line for viewers of Arrow, specifically, to hope and expect that the LoT-related storylines will serve some higher function on this show. Otherwise, it feels like using our characters and budget and story space to set up your characters and show, and getting nothing out of it in return. (Not actually referring to anyone here as "we" or "you," just speaking in the general sense. And I plan to watch LoT, but not everyone will.)

[nksarmi]

One could very easily argue that the reason Arrow can't do a season long story since S1 is because it's been used as a lauchpad for spin-offs.  S2 they dedicated 2 episodes 8/9 just for the Flash spin-off and 20 was supposed to be the backdoor pilot which was scrapped by The CW after viewing getting an early look at 208.  So Arrow had to rearrange some of the back half since it no longer had to set up Flash and in-fact was still used to incorporate the Flarrowverse since 219 (I think) introduced Cisco/Caitlin.

 

S3 was the year of the Palmer/ATOM spin-off (which ended up being LOT).  Berlanti started pitching the ATOM spin-off as early as July (that we know of) but probably had talks about it prior since the casting of BR was deliberate.

 

S4 you pretty much lost episodes, 2-8 to LOT setup.  Whatever stories they have for Diggle/HIVE and Felicity (other than Ray) have been shelved until 409 (at the earliest).  So really Arrow S4 is basically 1/3 LOT setup and 2/3 Arrow.

 

Ok just for discussion's sake, do you really think the weak spots of the formula (ie Oliver having information he doesn't reveal until much later than he should because the flashbacks have to build to the current day plot) would be corrected if they weren't launching spin-offs? 

 

I think the premise of having each year show what was going on with Oliver while he was supposedly on the island was cool - but I think it's been poorly executed and trying to tie each year of flashbacks directly into the present day has - in my opinion - caused them problems since season one.  I fully admit that season two worked because the actors were so good, but the plot itself had problems.

[nksarmi]

Yep. I said something about this on the LoT forum already, but prior to the season, I was (cautiously) looking forward to the Sara and Ray parts of 4A. And then when the Sara part was immediately a bust--on a character and story level on Arrow, the show I am currently watching--I was like, "Okay, never mind, let's just get this over with." Because it was very clear to me that the writers knew they had these Point Bs to get to, and they hadn't taken time to think about all the waypoints or reasons or motivations, like, AT ALL. We've already talked about the myriad ways they could have made very, very minor tweaks in order to not make LL look like a thoughtless, selfish person in this storyline and they simply didn't bother. I don't find it thrilling to watch half-assed storytelling and bad characterization and I think that's what we're getting out of the LoT setup so far.

 

So! I certainly hope they handle the Ray part better and that it's more fun to watch. But I don't think it's out of line for viewers of Arrow, specifically, to hope and expect that the LoT-related storylines will serve some higher function on this show. Otherwise, it feels like using our characters and budget and story space to set up your characters and show, and getting nothing out of it in return. (Not actually referring to anyone here as "we" or "you," just speaking in the general sense. And I plan to watch LoT, but not everyone will.)

 

At this point, I think anything involving Laurel is just going to be bad.  I don't want it to be bad.  I want them to make her character work - I really do.  I mean, her path to becoming Black Canary could have been fun AND amazing and made up for all the yucky times of season two.  They just didn't do it right.  And yes, the resurrection plot could have made her look better - instead of worse. Or at the very least, they could have not given her a "what about me" line in the hospital.  But aside from that, I do think the LoT setup is blending in well with Arrow.

 

I mean, they could have done the same plot with Thea and pit without Sara's resurrection, but they did tie together nicely.  And aside from the fact that I really want them to acknowledge that Malcolm made Thea do this to Sara - it is nice on some level that they are addressing the consequences of using the pit this season AND that Nyssa has made it so they can't use it again.  I mean, it nicely closes off the question of "how is anyone at risk in this show if they can just jet over to NP."  So, it hasn't been perfect, but it's been better than some stuff they have given us.

 

Plus, Sara isn't gone yet (I hope - not actually spoiled here).  So I think we might still get more emotional payoff from this storyline and how amazing will it be when Sara and Thea actually talk?  Or at least they better talk - I will be SO disappointed if they don't.  And IF (which I know is a big if) Sara and Thea do interact, doesn't that have the potential for making some of this plot deeper than just LoT setup?  I think the same is possibly true of Ray and Felicity, but I admit that I am much more interested in seeing Sara and Thea interact to be honest.

 

I know not everyone will watch LoT - just not like all Flash and Arrow fans cross over to the other shows.  But I think what they are doing in creating a little DC universe is kind of cool.  And I personally think that it does the shows and the characters more good if they write as if they are writing for a larger universe than when they treat the shows as if it doesn't matter if that person is totally different on Arrow - this is Flash so we will write them to fit into our show, etc... (I recently caught the first episode where Felicity shows up on Flash and boy did that feel just so totally wrong!).

 

So I am hoping (not sure - just hoping) that with LoT, the writers will try to be more cohesive across all the shows and write the characters the same no matter what show they are on.  Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with LoT setup - just my hope for how LoT might benefit the universe in general.

 

One final note regarding "year of Diggle and Felicity" - I really do think we are going to get both of those and that sakuru is right - they wouldn't have come until after the Christmas break anyway.  Plus I think if we didn't have LoT setup going on - they might have gone for more drama between Oliver and Felicity.  Right now (knock on wood) I think they are doing a great job with them as a couple so hopefully that remains true once LoT setup is done and they get into the meaty part of the season for core Arrow characters.

Edited November 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[Carrie Ann]

I know not everyone will watch LoT - just not like all Flash and Arrow fans cross over to the other shows.  But I think what they are doing in creating a little DC universe is kind of cool.  And I personally think that it does the shows and the characters more good if they write as if they are writing for a larger universe than when they treat the shows as if it doesn't matter if that person is totally different on Arrow - this is Flash so we will write them to fit into our show, etc... (I recently caught the first episode where Felicity shows up on Flash and boy did that feel just so totally wrong!).

 

So I am hoping (not sure - just hoping) that with LoT, the writers will try to be more cohesive across all the shows and write the characters the same no matter what show they are on.  Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with LoT setup - just my hope for how LoT might benefit the universe in general.

 

I agree with your first point--I don't mind the widening universe, and I like having a deeper stable of players to use--even if in name/reference only, like with the Cisco mention re: the new lair. But: "And I personally think that it does the shows and the characters more good if they write as if they are writing for a larger universe than when they treat the shows as if it doesn't matter if that person is totally different on Arrow." I mean, sure, I agree that it's better IF they would do this, but they don't. (And as you say, really isn't the issue at hand re: the LoT setup on Arrow.)

 

In fact, my dissatisfaction with the way they've handled the Sara story doesn't give me confidence that the writers on any Flarrowverse staff will handle these things particularly well going forward. It makes me feel like they are still willing to sacrifice characterization and natural flow of narrative in order to hit certain bullet points. And since the bullet points we're hitting with these storylines are primarily about characters who are going to be on another show? I'm just ready for that to be over (and for that show to start).

 

But I would love nothing more than to come out of 409 and feel like the Ray storyline ended up really being all about Felicity, and that we got tons of great stuff for her from that. Or to feel like the Sara story turned into something WAY better, especially for characters I care more about than the one it's been about so far. It's just that the careless handling so far isn't filling me with optimism.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[kismet]

Inspired by the discussion the New/Articles section -

 

I don't think its the Spin-Offs that are hurting the Flarrowverse per se. Its the amount of time that is being devoted to them on each show. It's the wear & tear of season long or multiple multi-arc backdoor pilotesque introducing of new characters. And for Arrow, this is our 2nd season, having to put up with being used a free promotional time for spin-off characters. How Arrow originally spun-off BA & the Flash was genius. Have the characters come in for 1 (maybe 2) multi-episode arc and make his/her case for a spin-off. Then build a world around that character or team on its own show.

 

LL's psychotic break aside, I have not found SL's resurrection story arc to be weighing Arrow down. LL being Laurel and another our usual heaping of Arrow's writers room LL WTF moments are what is weighing the arc down. But that is not on SL, that's on the writers & KC. The audience knew SL since the pilot, it only makes sense to have her be resurrected on the show. And they did eventually tie it back to the main narrative and make it about OQ retrieving SL's soul in the end. A promise he made to her over 2 years ago.

 

The other arcs on both shows have felt forced. I don't think we necessarily needed to have episodes devoted to Ray or Capt Cold. Well maybe we did need a Stein/Jax/Firestorm episode, since the audience did lose Ronnie and he had been a core part of the essence of the show from the pilot just like SL. But the rest, the could have just included them in the multi-episode crossover. We know enough about Capt Cold & Ray to see why they would be masks fit for a team of misfits. Let them have their character development, struggles & growth on their own show. But the LoT is using the budget and the popularity of the F&A to sell us these characters again. It's like selling water to an ocean, its pointless. People who like/hate the characters have probably already made up their decision about the show. No need to sell to them. And new audience members are not tuning into sporadic F&A eps to see what happens to these new characters they haven't even met yet.

 

I also wonder if it might backfire in the end. Because the writers rooms have some communication, but certainly the characterizations of the LoT cast is ultimately in the hands of the LoT writers room. So in the end, it doesn't necessarily matter what happened in either Flash or Arrow. So why should we have to the primary characters of the F & A be relegated to the background for possibly non-consequential or useless stories to take their place? The whole point of a spin-off is to create interest and show some of the origins of the team. That all could have been done in 1 mega multi-episode crossover. It could have been like the teaser only a little longer. The rest of it all is why it is feeling like Flash & Arrow are being overtaken by LoT.

 

Edited - for typing errors :(

Edited November 10, 2015 by kismet

[Starfish35]

TV Grim Reaper (fka the Cancellation Bear) has a poll up about where LoT will go on the CW schedule.

http://www.tvgrimreaper.com/2015/11/10/cw-predictions-which-current-cw-show-will-legends-of-tomorrow-replace-poll/654/

[Starfish35]

Supergirl dropped again - down to a 1.7 in the overnight ratings.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-monday-ratings-11-9-2015.html

[Morrigan2575]

Ouch.  CBS can't be happy with that

Edited November 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

Supergirl dropped again - down to a 1.7 in the overnight ratings.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-monday-ratings-11-9-2015.html

 

Not surprised. I said earlier in this thread that, for some reason, I can't see the longevity in this show. Shame because we need shows with lead female heroes. Maybe it'll improve?

[KirkB]

I like Supergirl, but I think CBS is a weird place for it to be. It's a genre show skewing younger on a network skewing older. 

 

I don't think Sara needed to be brought back on Arrow, nor does Ray. Both could have been saved for LoT episodes. Hawkgirl hasn't identified herself as such yet, they may be waiting for LoT for that as well. Even Stein finding a new cohost for Firestorm could have waited. We already know Cold isn't a pure bad guy, though I can't wait to see how Hunter justifies them working with someone who admits he's completely untrustworthy. At least Heatwave is just in it for the fire. They are all going to have their own show, why couldn't wait until they were all going to be the focus instead of giving five minutes of a storyline on one episode of Arrow to the resurrection of Sara Lance?

[tarotx]

I get the frustration with bringing in new characters for Spin offs. I think it has potential to wear down the cross over with Rip, Hawkman and Vandal being pretty unknown and Hawkgirl barely known. I do think the Cross over will focus mostly on the Hawks and showing How dangerous Vandal has been in history.

I just think Laurel, Lance and Thea arcs have been showcased as they bought Sara back. Nyssa and Malcolm as well. Other than Laurel's stupid they used Sara's resurection something that affected a large chuck of the regulars and Nyssa a recurring. They connected it to Oliver having to deal with Should Laurel still be in his life. As well as had him bring in Constantine who the show connected to the Flashbacks. Felicity and Oliver bonding over talk of Loss.

The big thing that has suffered is Diggle and Felicity bonding. Which is something that was happening before the Sara plot.

Sad about Supergirl ratings :( Though I'm not really into the show.

[nksarmi]

But I would love nothing more than to come out of 209 and feel like the Ray storyline ended up really being all about Felicity, and that we got tons of great stuff for her from that. Or to feel like the Sara story turned into something WAY better, especially for characters I care more about than the one it's been about so far. It's just that the careless handling so far isn't filling me with optimism.

 

I understand the hesitation given what they have done with Laurel / Sara so far and I probably should be more hesitant myself given how much I disliked the writing in season three.  But I see all sorts of potential for when Sara and Thea actually get to interact that I can't help but be hopeful that the next couple of episodes are going to be so worth it.  I could be heading toward a brick wall of disappointment though!

 

However, I do think some interesting/fun stuff has happened on both shows that might not have happened without the LoT build up....

 

- Thea going back to NP and interacting naturally with Malcolm.  I don't see how they would have gotten that in without Laurel's crazy ass idea.  Grant it, I would have much preferred that plot choice be about Laurel actually wanting to help Thea, but no matter what Laurel was the only one stupid enough to go back there.  And I did enjoy them painting Malcolm as they crazy ass evil dad that he is with feeding Thea a couple of guys to kill to keep the blood lust at bay.

 

- Nyssa poisoning the pit.  Any Nyssa is good Nyssa and the added benefit of her poisoning the pit was just fantastic.

 

- Constantine.  I loved having him around.  I wish the "get Sara's soul back" quest had been more interesting, but I still love that Constantine is now an established presence on Arrow and they can bring him back later to help deal with Darkh if they can get the actor.

 

- Felicity being CEO of Palmer Tech.  I love this.  And I don't see how it happens without the setup for LoT. 

 

- Cisco getting a date with Hawkgirl (minor I know but I still like it).

 

- Ronnie disappearing and Dr. Stein getting a new partner.  I really do think this could be very interesting on Flash.  I mean it is perfectly reasonable to believe Ronnie went through the singularity and is now on Earth 2.  If the reason they replaced him is because the actor didn't want to commit to the LoT show, then they can always bring him back on Flash to amp up the drama for Caitlyn.  I don't know if they would have made that choice without the LoT setup.

 

- Learning more about the Cold family dynamics (and Michael Ironsides).  I like what they did with Cold on Flash and yup, they got me on the Golden Vibe ship pretty easily with that episode.  I kind of wish she was the one going to LoT instead of Heatwave (maybe she will eventually - the show needs another woman).

 

Things that could still potentially happen....

 

- Sara and Thea interacting and forming a deeper bond. 

 

- Ray's shrinking technology helping Curtis and Felicity save the company (once they figure out how to use it beneficially without blowing stuff up).

[NumberCruncher]

One final note regarding "year of Diggle and Felicity" - I really do think we are going to get both of those and that sakuru is right - they wouldn't have come until after the Christmas break anyway.  Plus I think if we didn't have LoT setup going on - they might have gone for more drama between Oliver and Felicity.  Right now (knock on wood) I think they are doing a great job with them as a couple so hopefully that remains true once LoT setup is done and they get into the meaty part of the season for core Arrow characters.

I respectfully disagree with that though--especially since the writers/EPs have been talking about delving into Felicity's backstory since S2. Why? They claim it's because they ran out of time and I don't think all of the spinoff setups have helped that situation. I could argue the same goes for Diggle because we first learned about the Andy/H.I.V.E. connection back in 2x06! People here are asking what else they would have focused on if not the Flash/LoT spinoffs. Well there are two pretty obvious examples.

[nksarmi]

I like Supergirl, but I think CBS is a weird place for it to be. It's a genre show skewing younger on a network skewing older. 

 

I don't think Sara needed to be brought back on Arrow, nor does Ray. Both could have been saved for LoT episodes. Hawkgirl hasn't identified herself as such yet, they may be waiting for LoT for that as well. Even Stein finding a new cohost for Firestorm could have waited. We already know Cold isn't a pure bad guy, though I can't wait to see how Hunter justifies them working with someone who admits he's completely untrustworthy. At least Heatwave is just in it for the fire. They are all going to have their own show, why couldn't wait until they were all going to be the focus instead of giving five minutes of a storyline on one episode of Arrow to the resurrection of Sara Lance?

 

I strongly suspect it's because they want to launch LoT with the characters established in the Flarrowverse and immediately get into the time travelling battle against Savage.  It's a shorter show with a huge special effects budget (at least I think I read that) so they don't really have time for character setup. 

 

Plus, I think logistically since they want to pull from the already established audience, it was probably more cost effective to have these people guest star on Flash and Arrow and then bring them all onto the new show rather than to pull characters like Oliver, Barry, Laurel, etc... onto the new show to set things up.

[kismet]

Supergirl has the worst radio promo leading up to this week's episode. It was like girly jekyll and hyde. I thought it didn't so the show any favors. The first part elaborated on her being heroic, facing a super-villain. Which was good, if a little generic. But then it ended by saying that she was facing her biggest challenge ever meeting Olsen's ex-gf. I swear it even had the screeching comedic warning sound effect. Which completely undermined the show, by presenting it as just another bubble-gum trip through a cheesy diary of a teenage girl. Which is ridiculous considering that is only part of the show, and frankly demeaning consider the "girl" is not so much a girl but an adult.

 

I feel like the show doesn't know who it is yet (which is fine); but I feel like the promotional team is making it worse by selling the show as some bouncy rom-com, with a little punch of superhero. I don't know which audience they are trying to attract? I'm not sure they even know. They seem to be marketing to completely different sectors. I think its also on a horrible night. There are so many other things on Mon night that appeal to the same audience. But when you look at the CBS line-up it really is the only place it could go. It really is an odd pick for CBS, considering the other shows on the network. Sun would be a good choice, but then it goes up against OUAT - which I know is declining but still I think they pull from the same audience, so I doubt CBS would want to put them in direct competition with each other.

[nksarmi]

I respectfully disagree with that though--especially since the writers/EPs have been talking about delving into Felicity's backstory since S2. Why? They claim it's because they ran out of time and I don't think all of the spinoff setups have helped that situation. I could argue the same goes for Diggle because we first learned about the Andy/H.I.V.E. connection back in 2x06! People here are asking what else they would have focused on if not the Flash/LoT spinoffs. Well there are two pretty obvious examples.

I don't know if I believe all of MG's talk about running out of time to do certain stories because I'm pretty sure they could have gotten another Felicity backstory episode in somewhere along the way if they wanted to.  I mean, I think I believe him when he says they wanted to do something with Huntress but couldn't work it in - but I think they could have done more with Felicity on Arrow if they wanted to - heck, they've done quite a bit with her on Flash (not backstory, but character development - heck, she got a nemesis on Flash!).  I think MG thought people would be happy with the Ray / Felicity plot of season three and now he's trying to make amends. 

 

I also would not be surprised if they were always saving H.I.V.E. for a season long arc and this is just when they finally decided to do it.  I admit that I might be too optimistic, but I really do think Diggle is going to get plenty of story this season.  Heck, I kind of feel like he has already given that he feels like the new de facto leader of the group.  But that could be because Diggle seems like a natural born leader to me, so it's not surprising that Laurel and Thea tend to look to him.

Supergirl has the worst radio promo leading up to this week's episode. It was like girly jekyll and hyde. I thought it didn't so the show any favors. The first part elaborated on her being heroic, facing a super-villain. Which was good, if a little generic. But then it ended by saying that she was facing her biggest challenge ever meeting Olsen's ex-gf. I swear it even had the screeching comedic warning sound effect. Which completely undermined the show, by presenting it as just another bubble-gum trip through a cheesy diary of a teenage girl. Which is ridiculous considering that is only part of the show, and frankly demeaning consider the "girl" is not so much a girl but an adult.

 

I feel like the show doesn't know who it is yet (which is fine); but I feel like the promotional team is making it worse by selling the show as some bouncy rom-com, with a little punch of superhero. I don't know which audience they are trying to attract? I'm not sure they even know. They seem to be marketing to completely different sectors. I think its also on a horrible night. There are so many other things on Mon night that appeal to the same audience. But when you look at the CBS line-up it really is the only place it could go. It really is an odd pick for CBS, considering the other shows on the network. Sun would be a good choice, but then it goes up against OUAT - which I know is declining but still I think they pull from the same audience, so I doubt CBS would want to put them in direct competition with each other.

 

Actually Supergirl might do very well against Once.  I really believe that Once has lost its way and I would not be surprised if it ends soon.  Supergirl could easily pull that audience in my opinion.  I actually really like Supergirl so I hope it finds its way for at least a couple of seasons - at least long enough to be considered a success so other female hero shows can be made. 

[kismet]

I understand the hesitation given what they have done with Laurel / Sara so far and I probably should be more hesitant myself given how much I disliked the writing in season three.  But I see all sorts of potential for when Sara and Thea actually get to interact that I can't help but be hopeful that the next couple of episodes are going to be so worth it.  I could be heading toward a brick wall of disappointment though!

 

However, I do think some interesting/fun stuff has happened on both shows that might not have happened without the LoT build up....

 

- Thea going back to NP and interacting naturally with Malcolm.  I don't see how they would have gotten that in without Laurel's crazy ass idea.  Grant it, I would have much preferred that plot choice be about Laurel actually wanting to help Thea, but no matter what Laurel was the only one stupid enough to go back there.  And I did enjoy them painting Malcolm as they crazy ass evil dad that he is with feeding Thea a couple of guys to kill to keep the blood lust at bay.

 

- Nyssa poisoning the pit.  Any Nyssa is good Nyssa and the added benefit of her poisoning the pit was just fantastic.

 

- Constantine.  I loved having him around.  I wish the "get Sara's soul back" quest had been more interesting, but I still love that Constantine is now an established presence on Arrow and they can bring him back later to help deal with Darkh if they can get the actor.

 

- Felicity being CEO of Palmer Tech.  I love this.  And I don't see how it happens without the setup for LoT. 

 

- Cisco getting a date with Hawkgirl (minor I know but I still like it).

 

- Ronnie disappearing and Dr. Stein getting a new partner.  I really do think this could be very interesting on Flash.  I mean it is perfectly reasonable to believe Ronnie went through the singularity and is now on Earth 2.  If the reason they replaced him is because the actor didn't want to commit to the LoT show, then they can always bring him back on Flash to amp up the drama for Caitlyn.  I don't know if they would have made that choice without the LoT setup.

 

- Learning more about the Cold family dynamics (and Michael Ironsides).  I like what they did with Cold on Flash and yup, they got me on the Golden Vibe ship pretty easily with that episode.  I kind of wish she was the one going to LoT instead of Heatwave (maybe she will eventually - the show needs another woman).

 

Things that could still potentially happen....

 

- Sara and Thea interacting and forming a deeper bond. 

 

- Ray's shrinking technology helping Curtis and Felicity save the company (once they figure out how to use it beneficially without blowing stuff up).

Most of these storylines vary on personal preference whether you like them or not (for me its 4/9 on your list (2/9 if remove guest stars doing cool things)). So really its 2/9 for Flarrowverse, but that is just my personal preference. But there's a flavor for everybody, who's to say which is better :)

 

Essentially though they all have one thing in common. Most of them have little or nothing to do with Oliver's or Barry's hero journey, which is the fundamental premise & foundation of their shows. Its called ARROW or FLASH, not Arrow/Flash & friends. As much as I enjoy a good supporting cast. I want to see them support the main narrative of the show which is the hero's journey. I did not sign up for an Ensemble Show on either show. It's not to say the supporting cast can't have a life outside of the Hero's journey. But most of your storylines only involve OQ or BA because they might stop by the foundry/lab around the same time the other story is going on. OQ & BA could be getting some R&R on a beach somewhere for most of your storylines, which means they are not essential to the Hero's journey. They are superfluous to ARROW & FLASH. Great filler but not critical to the narrative.

Edited November 10, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

Actually Supergirl might do very well against Once.  I really believe that Once has lost its way and I would not be surprised if it ends soon.  Supergirl could easily pull that audience in my opinion.  I actually really like Supergirl so I hope it finds its way for at least a couple of seasons - at least long enough to be considered a success so other female hero shows can be made. 

I'm not sure if would. But I have no hard facts to speculate with. What I know OUAT is a family show that is brought to us by Disney. A lot of families tune into as a family night things. Sorta dates back to the Magical World of Disney tradition. So even if the show is losing some audience and might have lost its way creatively. I think ABC will still market and sell it as a way to bring Disney into your family's life. I have no doubt that next year, they will find some marketable tie in that will bolster the audiences again. I wouldn't even be surprised if it somehow is connected to Star Wars since Disney has been all over that since it acquired the rights.

 

Could Supergirl compete against that? Probably, who's to really know. I just don't think CBS wants to steal from that audience or break-up their Sunday. Especially since I'm not sure how it would pair up with the Good Wife, which I don't think will ever leave the Sun timeslot.

Edited November 10, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

Most of these storylines vary on personal preference whether you like them or not (for me its 4/9 on your list (2/9 if remove guest stars doing cool things)). So really its 2/9 for Flarrowverse, but that is just my personal preference. But there's a flavor for everybody, who's to say which is better :)

 

Essentially though they all have one thing in common. Most of them have little or nothing to do with Oliver's or Barry's hero journey, which is the fundamental premise & foundation of their shows. Its called ARROW or FLASH, not Arrow/Flash & friends. As much as I enjoy a good supporting cast. I want to see them support the main narrative of the show which is the hero's journey. I did not sign up for an Ensemble Show on either show. It's not to say the supporting cast can't have a life outside of the Hero's journey. But most of your storylines only involve OQ or BA because they might stop by the foundry/lab around the same time the other story is going on. OQ & BA could be getting some R&R on a beach somewhere for most of your storylines, which means they are not essential to the Hero's journey. They are superfluous to ARROW & FLASH. Great filler but not critical to the narrative.

 

I agree 100% that none of this is essential to Barry or Oliver's story and if you want the focus to always be on that - I understand the disappointment.  I guess the problem for me is that Oliver hasn't been my favorite character on this show since season one and I actively disliked him for most of season three.  So I guess I'm kind of glad that the show is branching out as I feel like it has given them a chance to "save" Oliver for me. 

 

I mean I totally understand the complaint that Oliver isn't kicking enough butt this season, because while the group fight scenes are sometimes cool - Oliver should be able to do more on his own.  But outside of that, I feel like the show is now allowing Oliver to be more than just the Arrow/hero of the story - interestingly enough I feel like they are giving him a richer story by focusing on the other people in his life.  At least if the setup for this season holds all year long, they are letting Oliver find a life as Oliver Queen by running for mayor (I really think last season suffered by Oliver not having a role as Oliver Queen in Starling City), they are letting him be a boyfriend and maybe eventually a husband, they are letting him be a good brother to Thea, and letting him be a good friend to Diggle.  So while the focus of the show is shifting a little - I feel like they are making Oliver a better man/hero/character than ever before.  So that kind of works for me.

 

And while the stuff I mentioned for LoT isn't really connected to Oliver - it does highly connect to Thea (again, I hope - will be so annoyed if I'm wrong here) and Felicity who are deeply connected to him and therefore to me - it still affects his hero journey.

 

On Flash, I do see how it's more loosely connected but I got the impression from the trailers that Barry himself might be connected to LoT more than Oliver and I strongly suspect that Cisco/Vibe will be as well.  Plus, it kind of feels like Barry's hero journey IS complete and now they just have to show him being that hero.

I'm not sure if would. But I have no hard facts to speculate with. What I know OUAT is a family show that is brought to us by Disney. A lot of families tune into as a family night things. Sorta dates back to the Magical World of Disney tradition. So even if the show is losing some audience and might have lost its way creatively. I think ABC will still market and sell it as a way to bring Disney into your family's life. I have no doubt that next year, they will find some marketable tie in that will bolster the audiences again. I wouldn't even be surprised if it somehow is connected to Star Wars since Disney has been all over that since it acquired the rights.

 

Could Supergirl compete against that? Probably, who's to really know. I just don't think CBS wants to steal from that audience or break-up their Sunday. Especially since I'm not sure how it would pair up with the Good Wife, which I don't think will ever leave the Sun timeslot.

 

I don't have any data either - I'm just basing my opinion on the fact that I have a 12-year old who loves Once but since I am feed up with it and don't watch it anymore (I really don't know what could bring me back except for the series finale just to see how they end it) - I think she'd flip over to Supergirl without a second thought (she watches it On Demand right now since she usually has too much to do to catch it on Monday nights).  And all of her friends at school seem to watch both Once and Supergirl and I'm beating they'd break to Supergirl if push came to shove.  After all, at this point in time Kara and her sister are much better role models for teen girls than any character on Once that I can think of (they have ruined Snow White, rewarded the evil queen, and turned the hero evil for a selfless act - I debate every week just banning it from the house lol).

 

I do wonder if ratings just aren't what they want with it, if they'd leverage the multiple Earths on Flash to write a crossover - maybe just with Barry ending up in National City for an episode?  I just don't think the shows can exist in the same universe with the way things are written but the multiple Earths could get around that.

Edited November 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[kismet]

I agree 100% that none of this is essential to Barry or Oliver's story and if you want the focus to always be on that - I understand the disappointment.  I guess the problem for me is that Oliver hasn't been my favorite character on this show since season one and I actively disliked him for most of season three.  So I guess I'm kind of glad that the show is branching out as I feel like it has given them a chance to "save" Oliver for me. 

 

I mean I totally understand the complaint that Oliver isn't kicking enough butt this season, because while the group fight scenes are sometimes cool - Oliver should be able to do more on his own.  But outside of that, I feel like the show is now allowing Oliver to be more than just the Arrow/hero of the story - interestingly enough I feel like they are giving him a richer story by focusing on the other people in his life.  At least if the setup for this season holds all year long, they are letting Oliver find a life as Oliver Queen by running for mayor (I really think last season suffered by Oliver not having a role as Oliver Queen in Starling City), they are letting him be a boyfriend and maybe eventually a husband, they are letting him be a good brother to Thea, and letting him be a good friend to Diggle.  So while the focus of the show is shifting a little - I feel like they are making Oliver a better man/hero/character than ever before.  So that kind of works for me.

 

And while the stuff I mentioned for LoT isn't really connected to Oliver - it does highly connect to Thea (again, I hope - will be so annoyed if I'm wrong here) and Felicity who are deeply connected to him and therefore to me - it still affects his hero journey.

 

On Flash, I do see how it's more loosely connected but I got the impression from the trailers that Barry himself might be connected to LoT more than Oliver and I strongly suspect that Cisco/Vibe will be as well.  Plus, it kind of feels like Barry's hero journey IS complete and now they just have to show him being that hero.

Agree with Italics part. I do enjoy this part of s4. But none of your things on your initial list relate back to this part. Thea was used as a pawn by MM & LL and a plot device for the writers. She was an afterthought in most of SL's resurrection arc. Yes she has deep emotional trauma from it and I hope the show addresses it. Just like I hope the show addresses SL & TQ bonding over it (but I'm not getting my hopes up).

 

As for CEOFelicity, if they never forced RP into the narrative the way they did, perhaps FS could have become CEO of QC on her own merit in s3/4 and not just signed into it to close up a plot hole. Or OQ could have recognized that FS was better equipped to run it than he was which would have been a major step on his journey. RP could have been a collaborative partner and not just an antagonistic for plot. Then again, we aren't really seeing FS CEO, we are seeing FS spending her time around some new guy discussing lost footage of her dead ex. She's hanging out with Curtis, not CEOing the company. So yes, do I enjoy them focusing on other characters - but they are not doing that. They are using Arrow characters to accomplish their narratives for the LoT characters. So is OQ being a good family man, absolutely - but he would have found a way to do that without LL/SL's & RP's interference.

 

A hero's journey is never done. And Barry has a lot of growing up to do and a big learning curve after last season's selfish debacle.

Edited November 10, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

What I mean by hero's journey is well it kind of took Oliver three/four (?) seasons to go from Hood to Green Arrow - that's a freaking journey!  Now Oliver gets to BE the Hero in my eyes (and I hope they keep him there).  I hope there is no more - are you dark, you are bad, are you blah blah blah crap.  Nope.  Just Oliver is the Hero.

 

Now on Flash, it seems like Barry faced his big defining moment (going back in time to save his mother) and made the right choice (in the end).  So now he's the Hero complete with Flash Day lol.  Don't get me wrong, he has a lot of story to tell but it seems like his journey was faster and now they are just going to tell his story - which I'm cool with. 

 

I do have issues with Barry's decision to go back in time and the whole singularity stuff and Eddie dying and time not being reset and how people keep dying this season lol and no one seems to care....but I just get a different feel from Flash than Arrow.  Like Barry and Oliver have both arrived at "hero" status but Oliver's journey was a hell of a lot harder and more complex. 

 

I'm not sure I'm making sense, but that's the best I got to try to explain what I mean.

 

At any rate - yes, Felicity becoming a CEO and Thea's journey could have been accomplished without the LoT stuff - I'm just not sure they would have made those choices otherwise.  And I am especially happy about Felicity being a CEO - and I am hopeful we will get to see little snippets of her in that capacity for as long as the show runs (I kind of hope Felicity and Oliver do get married and she changes the name back to Queen Consolidated at that point so we go full circle back to that article on Flash).

 

I don't expect the show to do Felicity being CEO particularly well, but the idea of her being a smart, capable business woman without being the power bitch that Supergirl features makes me happy.  It's a nod to what's possible even if they don't spend a lot of time on it. 

 

But back to Thea - I guess I will know how much I like the Sara resurrection plot after the next episode when she should interact and bond with Thea.  I think this aspect of the LoT plot is very important to me - probably more so than a lot of fans - because I was really, really, really bothered by the fact that Merlyn mind-raped Thea to kill Sara to begin with.  And I was equally bothered that Oliver prevented Thea from getting justice for that by saving him from Ra's.  At least the resurrection plot will - on some level - make amends for this and take this horrible deed off Thea's shoulders.  And I do have to say that without LoT - I don't think the show would have ever fixed that.

Edited November 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[jay741982]

Supergirl dropped again - down to a 1.7 in the overnight ratings.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-monday-ratings-11-9-2015.html

This sucks I really like this show. It has potential to be great. :(

[kismet]

When I find myself lost for an example of a hero's journey... I turn to Disney's Hercules. In many ways it reflects the basic concepts & tenets of hero-dom in a very accessible way with a soundtrack and everything. :) Seriously, I could apply most of those songs to every Hero's story & especially Flarrowverse.

 

Of course then if I wanted to be all academic & smart, I could use all the other literature and research that has been amount over the years through various disciplines - but at the end of the day there is more to being a HERO than just saving the day. Barry went from ZERO to HERO in s1, now as part of that journey he has to understand what that means. He is only just begun. But I'm sure he can go the distance.

 

So @nksarmi I get a lot of what you are trying to express, but to me I see a Hero as a more fluid life goal and way of life. Anyone can save the day if given the right circumstances that doesn't make them all heroes. A lot of what BA did in s1 was saving the day. But how he is handling the fall-out of his decisions at the start of s2, to me spoke more about his potential as a Hero than anything he did in s1. The way he talked to Jax and to convince him to be part of Firestorm showed me that BA is starting to get the big picture. Of course, it must be hard for him to try to delve deeper into the philosophy of heroism considering how everyone is always telling him how great he is.