Dark - General Discussion

[HolmesUltimateQu]

I finished it and omg.

I wondered how they were going to wrap everything up (even up to episode 4 and 5) and I'll say that I was completely satisfied with the ending. It was so good and I cried. 

[Enigma X]

I guess I will press on. I stopped at episode 4 because I fear I was not going to like the ending.

[marinw]

Just watched episode 4-great music. Asaf Avidan's  "In a Box II" will be struck in my brain for weeks. She is really chanelling Leonard Cohen in this one.

Edited June 29, 2020 by marinw

[dbklmt]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Just watched eposode 4-great music. Asaf Avidan's  "In a Box II" will be struck in my brain for weeks. She is really chanelling Leonard Cohen in this one.

Music has been one of the stars of the series for me.  I really looked forward to an ending song which reflected elements of the story and the lyrics are so appropriate.  I always have closed captions on to make sure I can understand the lyrics.  Are these original songs written for the series or contemporary popular songs?

I've also finished Season 3 and I was very satisfied with the ending 😍. 

Regarding the ending Pete Peppers has a fantastic new video: Dark Season 3 Ending Explained.  Do not watch until you've finished Season 3. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by dbklmt
ETA spoiler video

[marinw]

16 hours ago, dbklmt said:

I always have closed captions on to make sure I can understand the lyrics.  Are these original songs written for the series or contemporary popular songs?

Not sure. I do know that Season 2's "My Body Is A Cage" is an Arcade Fire song that has been around for at least ten years. The Cover might just be for this show.

Edited June 29, 2020 by marinw

[iMonrey]

Spoiler alert, skip this post if you have not watched the whole thing.

Well, I was worried things would get too complicated this season, and they sort of did. Not that it ruined the whole season - I was able to follow along pretty well, for the most part. I understand the concept of the three worlds and how that worked structurally, but I still feel like they bit off a little  more than they could chew. At one point there were like seven or eight Marthas and I lost track of which was which. Also, they layered two different realities on the same world - one where Jonas survived the apocalypse because Alt-Martha zapped him into the mirror world, and one where he just ran down into the basement and survived. Too much.

I don't think I ever quite grasped the whole "stuck in a loop" concept. There were other things that sort of went over my head. I also got tired of people talking in circles, or riddles. And I think there were some loose ends too. They more or less explained what Alexander's backstory was, but I felt like that character was not fully developed. It also didn't feel like they knew what to do with Bartosz.

And what happened to Investigator Clausen? He was a big deal in Season 2 and was largely responsible for the apocalypse. He was totally absent from this season. I wonder if maybe the actor just wasn't available for this season so they wrote him out.

Not sure how I feel about the ending. I think it hit all the emotional buttons but I'm a little confused about who was still around. If there was no Claudia how was there a Regina? 

Will probably rewatch the season.

 

[bettername2come]

On 6/28/2020 at 5:02 PM, HolmesUltimateQu said:

I finished it and omg.

I wondered how they were going to wrap everything up (even up to episode 4 and 5) and I'll say that I was completely satisfied with the ending. It was so good and I cried. 

I'm just starting the first ep season 3 and clicked on this thread for some reason. Your comment has convinced me to behave and not look at any more comments. 

[Cattie]

On 6/30/2020 at 10:45 PM, iMonrey said:

Spoiler alert, skip this post if you have not watched the whole thing.

Well, I was worried things would get too complicated this season, and they sort of did. Not that it ruined the whole season - I was able to follow along pretty well, for the most part. I understand the concept of the three worlds and how that worked structurally, but I still feel like they bit off a little  more than they could chew. At one point there were like seven or eight Marthas and I lost track of which was which. Also, they layered two different realities on the same world - one where Jonas survived the apocalypse because Alt-Martha zapped him into the mirror world, and one where he just ran down into the basement and survived. Too much.

I don't think I ever quite grasped the whole "stuck in a loop" concept. There were other things that sort of went over my head. I also got tired of people talking in circles, or riddles. And I think there were some loose ends too. They more or less explained what Alexander's backstory was, but I felt like that character was not fully developed. It also didn't feel like they knew what to do with Bartosz.

And what happened to Investigator Clausen? He was a big deal in Season 2 and was largely responsible for the apocalypse. He was totally absent from this season. I wonder if maybe the actor just wasn't available for this season so they wrote him out.

Not sure how I feel about the ending. I think it hit all the emotional buttons but I'm a little confused about who was still around. If there was no Claudia how was there a Regina? 

Will probably rewatch the season.

 

I think there was a Claudia in this world, because she was not affected by the loop. So, that's why there was a Regina. We just didn't see her at the end.

The characters that can't exist in this world are the ones affected by the loop: Jonas and all his versions, the Nielsen family (Ulrich and the children), Charlotte and her daughters. It's funny, because when they explained what they were going to do, I started calculating who couldn't exist in the original world and I thought we'd see Peter married to Katharina at the end. It felt good to be right.

I may not have understood a lot of what was going on, but I found the end really satisfactory, especually since I didn't expect them to be able to explain it all in a way that made sense.

[shrewd.buddha]

Mild spoiler alerts ahead - if you haven't watched all 3 seasons: 

On 6/30/2020 at 4:45 PM, iMonrey said:

Well, I was worried things would get too complicated this season, and they sort of did.
....
... I still feel like they bit off a little  more than they could chew.

I agree. I will say that the show provided a lot of entertaining speculation and discussion, but we were left with a nagging feeling that some things just didn't add up. And when it got to the point of Jonas and Martha 'putting their soldiers into position' ... and younger Jonas and Martha being snatched away in time - - right before the time they had time-jumped previously - - I sort of gave up and just let it wash over me..

A few things that were sort of confusing/annoying: 
  Martha#2, in the beginning of season 3, had a cut under her left eye. But later, and when she first got the cut with Jonas, it was under her right eye. Was there any point to that? 
  About halfway through season 3 there seemed to be a lot of the same dialogue: "You can't trust Adam, he lied to you." "Martha is lying - don't trust her." "Claudia is lying - - she has her own plan." Basically, all the old time travelers were liars. 
  There seemed to be way too many time-travel and dimension/time-travel devices - along with time travel tunnels. And everyone seemed to be experts at setting their destinations without any instruction. At the end of season 2, it felt like all the characters were jumping around in time. 
  Old Adam and old Martha just seemed to be hanging out in big rooms a lot of the time, waiting to explain/lie to whoever was being brought to them. What had they been doing with all their in-between years? 
  And who was building all those time-travel devices? It was sort of convenient that all (?) of them were created from plans sent back from the future ...  the Bootstrap Paradox

Overall, the  scope of the series was impressive: the large cast, with three versions of each character in some cases, and all the interconnections, past, 'present' and future. There must have been some massive white board meetings with the show runners.. 

To me, it felt as if the story that was started in season 1 did not flow very smoothly into the story of season 3 .. with the themes of Adam and Eva ... and Claudia trying to save Regina ...  and things coming back around to the clock-maker, who really didn't seem to be an important character for most of the series. 
.. but even so, it was a fun ride .. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by shrewd.buddha

[Chaos Theory]

It’s funny the characters I wanted to get a happy ending (Ulrich, Katerina and Charlotte) were the ones affected by the time loop.     I never particularly cared what happened to Jonas which was a major problem for me.  

Edited July 4, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[Frisson]

My problem with Season 3 is that it hinged so much on Martha, who I didn’t find that compelling as a character or actress, and Jonas. They were much less interesting than some of the other characters, but a lot of them took a backseat. 
 

Also, did Peter end up with Katharina? I thought he ended up with the person he’d been having the affair with in the different worlds. I was wondering if Regina and Katharina were alone. 

[Enigma X]

I will say it. I hated the ending and feel if you scratch a little many parts did not overall make sense. My problem with time travel stories is exemplified by the ending. In order for A to happen B has to happen but A only happened because B went back and did this for A to happen before A even created what B needed to go back in order to do it. 

[shrewd.buddha]

I think that things felt more contained when the time travelling was done with the tunnels - and everyone was confined to time periods that were 33 years apart.
When all the time-travel devices came into play and everyone (and it felt like everyone) started jumping all over the time/place, things started to get really convoluted. 

[iMonrey]

I've watched several You Tube videos and understand some of this stuff a little better now. But I still never quite understood the "loops" or "cycles." In Season 1 Adam kept saying it was the last cycle, but it's a concept they either didn't explain very well or dropped altogether by Season 3.

Quote

I think there was a Claudia in this world, because she was not affected by the loop. So, that's why there was a Regina. We just didn't see her at the end.

You're right, there was a Claudia in the origin world, and Regina's father was Bernd Doppler in all the worlds. Which is problematic in and of itself, but neither person was a descendent of Martha or Jonas. There's a photo in the final scene but it's hard to make out the Bernd Doppler character because he was never that prominent and looks a lot older.

Quote

Martha#2, in the beginning of season 3, had a cut under her left eye. But later, and when she first got the cut with Jonas, it was under her right eye. Was there any point to that? 

They explained this too - everything was mirrored to indicate which world they were in. In the mirror world all the sets and people are flopped backwards (the Kahnwald and Nielsen houses, etc., are mirrored) so Martha's cut is under one eye in the mirror world and under the other eye in Jonas's/Adam's world.

Quote

Also, did Peter end up with Katharina? I thought he ended up with the person he’d been having the affair with in the different worlds. 

I don't think Katharina and Peter were "together" together in the origin world. Peter was clearly a closeted gay man. He is seated next to Bernadette in the final scene and that's who he was seeing on the side in the Jonas world so I think that's who he wound up with. 

[bettername2come]

Just finished and I feel like I while this has always been a good show, I’ve never truly understood what was happening in it at all. The ending gave me the same feeling. Ah, well at least I’ll never forget how to say “You’re alive!” in German.

[Paloma]

Overall I was satisfied with the explanation with the idea of an origin world and how the alternate worlds came into being, but there were several times during season 3 that I felt like giving up because I could not keep track of the various versions of the people and worlds...especially when they were flipping backward and forward with the years. I've watched a couple of explanatory videos (thanks, @dbklmt for pointing me to one that was helpful), but I still have questions. 

Some of the questions are about Silja:

(1) In what world and time was she born? (And maybe related, where/when did Hannah go after she decided not to abort Egon's baby? In other words, where/when did she go through the pregnancy months?)  

(2) When hugely pregnant Hannah started bleeding, I thought she would lose the baby. How was she saved? Was that the purpose of old Egon T. showing up in that world/time?

(3) When Hannah and child Silja showed up in the 1800s (don't remember the exact year) to see Jonas (who was still relatively young but starting to look like old Adam), Jonas said that she and Silja were wrong there (or words to that effect), and he murdered Hannah in her bed. But instead of murdering Silja in her bed, which would have been easy to do with a pillow because she was sleeping, he woke her, told her he was going to show her something while her mother rested, and carried her out of the room. Where/when did he take her, and why would he have let her live when she was presumably just as "wrong" in this time/place as Hannah was?

(4) In the late 1800s or maybe early 1900s, a teen or young adult Bartosz met a teen or young adult Silja in the woods, and they apparently ended up marrying and having a baby a few years later. Was that Silja the same one (same world) that Jonas carried out of the bedroom after he murdered Hannah? Who raised her? (5) How did she end up in the post-apocalyptic future?

[marinw]

Wonderful show, one of the best things I've seen on tv this year, with the caveat that this is a weird year for tv, and a weird year in genreal.

A few quibbles:

Old Martha/Eve must be from around 2086 if she kept going on about how she spent 66 years thinking about things. Is the year 2086 mentioned anywhere, or did Martha travel back to another time at some point?

Also, if one scientist doesn't invent time travel and split the universe, another will, perhaps in another way and another time.

Did Jonas get all those burns (thus becomming Adam) from years of playing with all the time-travel gear?

The lesson is don't try to bring back loved ones that you have lost. It won't turn out the way you want.

Edited July 6, 2020 by marinw

[Natalie25]

3 hours ago, Paloma said:

Overall I was satisfied with the explanation with the idea of an origin world and how the alternate worlds came into being, but there were several times during season 3 that I felt like giving up because I could not keep track of the various versions of the people and worlds...especially when they were flipping backward and forward with the years. I've watched a couple of explanatory videos (thanks, @dbklmt for pointing me to one that was helpful), but I still have questions. 

Some of the questions are about Silja:

(1) In what world and time was she born? (And maybe related, where/when did Hannah go after she decided not to abort Egon's baby? In other words, where/when did she go through the pregnancy months?)  

(2) When hugely pregnant Hannah started bleeding, I thought she would lose the baby. How was she saved? Was that the purpose of old Egon T. showing up in that world/time?

(3) When Hannah and child Silja showed up in the 1800s (don't remember the exact year) to see Jonas (who was still relatively young but starting to look like old Adam), Jonas said that she and Silja were wrong there (or words to that effect), and he murdered Hannah in her bed. But instead of murdering Silja in her bed, which would have been easy to do with a pillow because she was sleeping, he woke her, told her he was going to show her something while her mother rested, and carried her out of the room. Where/when did he take her, and why would he have let her live when she was presumably just as "wrong" in this time/place as Hannah was?

(4) In the late 1800s or maybe early 1900s, a teen or young adult Bartosz met a teen or young adult Silja in the woods, and they apparently ended up marrying and having a baby a few years later. Was that Silja the same one (same world) that Jonas carried out of the bedroom after he murdered Hannah? Who raised her? (5) How did she end up in the post-apocalyptic future?

 (1) I don't think it was ever shown, probably because it's not as relevant to the story. Hannah herself only had the 33 year increment time machine, so she either stayed in 54 or went to 87. Based on her and Silja's clothing those are the two time period I'd guess she was in. A few years later they are found by Eva, who tells Hannah where Jonas is and probably uses the gold orb to send them to his time period (as they show up in the early 1900s outside of the 33 year loop).

(2) Hugely pregnant Alt-Hannah *did* have a miscarriage due to the apocalypse (if you look closely at the family tree the alt world does not show Hannah and Ulrich having a child). Alt-Old-Egon saves Alt-Hannah from the apocalypse and brings her to Alt-1954, at which point she has the affair with Alt-Young-Egon and gives birth to Alt-Silja, without whom much of the family tree wouldn't exist.

(3) I believe it is the early 1900s at this point. Jonas sends Silja to be raised in the future post apocalypse world (probably by Elisabeth) so that she can return as an adult in the 1890s, meet Bartosz, and kickstart the family tree. Hannah is wrong, mainly because she has served her purpose of bringing Silja to Jonas. Silja is wrong because she is too young at this point to meet Bartosz and have the children (who have already been born in 1904 & 1911).

(4) Yes, same Silja. I think Jonas uses the God particle to send Silja to the 2040s, where she is raised by Elisabeth (she's her translator in the beginning of Season 2). In 2053, Adam and his followers have moved their base of operations to the future - Adams sends everyone in different directions (or rather to different times!). Silja is sent to the 1890s to meet Bartosz.

Hope this helps!

[marinw]

I was moved by how Jonas and Martha were willing to erase their own exsistance, and how Adam and Eve held hands while they faded away. I agree with @Frisson that the actress playing young Martha is not a strong performer, but young Jonas gave a very compelling performace. I wanted to wrap him in a blanket and tell him everything is going to be okay, which would be a lie.

Edited July 5, 2020 by marinw

[Paloma]

7 hours ago, Natalie25 said:

Hope this helps!

I'm not quoting the whole thing, but your explanation is great--thanks so much! 

Another big thing I was confused about is who could still exist in the origin world after things were fixed. I understand that the ones directly resulting from the "knot" were never born (Jonas, Charlotte, Franziska, Elisabeth, Tronte, Ulrich, Martha, Magnus, Mikkel), but who else would have been erased or never born in the origin world? For example, Regina's husband in the alt-worlds came from outside Winden and never time-traveled, so why couldn't Alexander and Regina have met in the origin world and had Bartosz? I think one of the videos I watched about the ending said that they wouldn't have met because Alexander didn't need to save her from Ulrich and Katherina in 1986, but he could have met Regina another way after coming to Winden.

One of the causes of my confusion is that I never got a good look at the tiles on the floor in Eva's place showing the family trees created by the union of Martha and Jonas. If anyone can share a screenshot or link that shows this, I'd really appreciate it. 

[Paloma]

Just thought of another question: Why did the Unknown trio (who we now know to be the son of Martha and Jonas at different ages) kill old Bernd Doppler in his home? I don't see how his death at that age or that point in time would affect anything.

ETA: I just found these episode recaps that are helpful, though some things are still unclear. One thing I got from the recaps is that the Unknown trio came to old Bernd Doppler's home to get the master keys for the power plant, which they will use later to start the apocalypse. I guess they had to kill him to keep him from reporting this theft. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/06/9886979/netflix-dark-final-season-3-full-recap-summary

Edited July 5, 2020 by Paloma
found more information

[marinw]

Season 4?

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dark-season-4-netflix-release-date-trailer-plot

Another show I compare Dark to is 12 Monkeys.

[Natalie25]

You're welcome! I spent some time reading the discussion on reddit after each episode, and some of the explanations there were super useful.

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

Another big thing I was confused about is who could still exist in the origin world after things were fixed. I understand that the ones directly resulting from the "knot" were never born (Jonas, Charlotte, Franziska, Elisabeth, Tronte, Ulrich, Martha, Magnus, Mikkel), but who else would have been erased or never born in the origin world?

So the show started with four "main" families:

Nielsen - wiped out, all resulted from the knot. Technically, Jana, Ulrich's mother, exists, but is likely not relevant to the 6 characters at the end).

Kahnwald - still exist, but as Ines never adopted Mikkel, she probably didn't have children so this line died out.

Tiedemann - Doris and Egon have Claudia, but she ends up marrying Bernd (who has always been Regina's father in all timelines), we just didn't know until the end.

Doppler - Regina as we found out, and of course Helge and Peter. There's no Charlotte, so their children don't exist.

Katharina and Hannah are only part of the families by marriage, so their ancestors are still there too.

I think you have the main list of people that would not have existed - Silja doesn't exist as she's the result of the time travel, and Bartosz doesn't seem to exist either (though he could, see below). Their children Agnes and Noah also don't exist, thus the Nielsens and Charlotte/Elisabeth/Franziska).

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

For example, Regina's husband in the alt-worlds came from outside Winden and never time-traveled, so why couldn't Alexander and Regina have met in the origin world and had Bartosz? I think one of the videos I watched about the ending said that they wouldn't have met because Alexander didn't need to save her from Ulrich and Katherina in 1986, but he could have met Regina another way after coming to Winden.

Even though there no loops anymore in the real world, I'm assuming that Alexander's life still occurred the same way. I don't think his intention was ever to stop in Winden. If you remember his introduction, he had been shot and was running through the woods, came across Regina and saved her, then fainted from the wound. Regina ends up helping him, and it starts their relationship. It's at that point that he decides to stay (he buries his original passport after meeting her) and then gets the power plant job.

Without meeting Regina in the forest, he could either die from the wound, or keep running and end up somewhere else where he either is caught or lives under the assumed name somewhere else. I believe that without the Unknown Trio the power plant isn't built (no cooling towers in the background) so no job for him either. So while Bartosz could exist in theory as both his parents exist, they don't meet so he doesn't. This part was quite sad for me - it was clear that Regina and Alexander really loved each other and had a good marriage, but Regina does seem happy in the end.

Check out the official website: https://darknetflix.io/en/family-tree

I didn't discover it until after I finished the show, but it is really well done, and you can choose what episode you're on to prevent spoilers. Just a tip, the site allows you to click on a character and see their story chronologically. When you get to the end with Jonas, the website will "dissolve" the paradox characters and leave everyone else.

28 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Just thought of another question: Why did the Unknown trio (who we now know to be the son of Martha and Jonas at different ages) kill old Bernd Doppler in his home? I don't see how his death at that age or that point in time would affect anything.

If I remember correctly they were asking him for the keys? And I think this is the same episode where they kill Jasmin, Claudia's secretary. And then at the end, they give the keys and booklet on the Power Plant Volume Control to Eva. I think the Trio uses these items to cause the "accident" at the plant in June of 86 which causes all the loops/time travel.

I have a theory based on something Claudia said, which is that Regina can live in the real world because she is not descended from the loop. Within the loop, she always dies. So my theory is that this applies to everyone who can exist in the real world - Bernd, Helge, Peter, Egon, Claudia, Regina, Bartosz, Hannah, Katharina - all are murdered within the loops. Everyone else lives, but they're all the paradox characters. Mikkel commits suicide so I won't count him, and I'm not counting the kids that were killed because of time travel. Not sure if I missed anyone else? I'm not sure if I should count Bartosz, since he could exist, but technically doesn't.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, Natalie25 said:

So the show started with four "main" families:

Nielsen - wiped out, all resulted from the knot. Technically, Jana, Ulrich's mother, exists, but is likely not relevant to the 6 characters at the end).

Kahnwald - still exist, but as Ines never adopted Mikkel, she probably didn't have children so this line died out.

Tiedemann - Doris and Egon have Claudia, but she ends up marrying Bernd (who has always been Regina's father in all timelines), we just didn't know until the end.

Doppler - Regina as we found out, and of course Helge and Peter. There's no Charlotte, so their children don't exist.

Katharina and Hannah are only part of the families by marriage, so their ancestors are still there too.

I think you have the main list of people that would not have existed - Silja doesn't exist as she's the result of the time travel, and Bartosz doesn't seem to exist either (though he could, see below). Their children Agnes and Noah also don't exist, thus the Nielsens and Charlotte/Elisabeth/Franziska).

Wow, once again your explanation is great! And the rest of your answer (which I am not quoting to save space) also makes sense, especially about why Alexander and Regina likely would not have met. 

 

1 hour ago, Natalie25 said:

If I remember correctly they were asking him for the keys? And I think this is the same episode where they kill Jasmin, Claudia's secretary. And then at the end, they give the keys and booklet on the Power Plant Volume Control to Eva. I think the Trio uses these items to cause the "accident" at the plant in June of 86 which causes all the loops/time travel.

Yes, that matches up with what I just read in an episode recap--I edited my post asking this question to reflect that, but it looks like my edit hadn't yet posted when you answered this. 

I will definitely check out the official website link, and thanks for the tip on clicking on the characters to see their stories chronologically.

I'm glad to have fellow Dark obsessives here so we can discuss. My husband gave up on this season after the second or third episode, but that's in part because he refused to rewatch the first two seasons before starting season 3. 

 

[iMonrey]

Quote

But young Jonas gave a very compelling performance.

Nobody tears up like Louis Hofmann. I don't think he had a dry eye once the entire series.

[Paloma]

I have questions about the Unknown trio, probably unanswerable based on show information, that seem important: Why wasn't the son of Martha and Jonas given a name, and and what was the significance of the lack of a name? Who raised him and where/when? Eva's/Martha's goal was to keep him/them alive, but there didn't seem to be any relationship between the trio and her or even between the trio and the other Marthas. In one of the last episodes, the child and the adult Unknown hugged one of the young Marthas (I'm not sure which one), but she didn't seem to know them.

[Frisson]

The explanation of the families above is fantastic! The only one I’m still confused about is Ulrich. Why can’t he exist? I don’t get how his parents are only in the loop?

[Paloma]

1 minute ago, Frisson said:

The explanation of the families above is fantastic! The only one I’m still confused about is Ulrich. Why can’t he exist? I don’t get how his parents are only in the loop?

His mother (Jana) was not in the loop, but his father (Tronte) was--Tronte was apparently the son of the Unknown son of Martha, so once things were fixed and Martha no longer existed, her son could not exist either...therefore Tronte could not exist. At least I think that is the explanation.

[enchantingmonkey]

Just finished Episode 4 of S3.  The montage song (Asaf Avidan's The Labyrinth Song) made me chuckle with the lyrics talking about working a maze out in the head.  

It amuses me how the characters seem blind to how each solution to their problem leads to another problem in a vicious cycle pattern, much like we do without the thrill of time travel and travelling to alternate worlds.  

Hannah fascinates me because it's like she falls into a state of playing the role of a woman who believes she needs a man in her life, then goes Scorched Earth when that man doesn't live up to her expectations.  

I'll have to come back when I've finished S3 so I can read all of the comments...

 

[Paloma]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:04 PM, marinw said:

Asaf Avidan's  "In a Box II" will be struck in my brain for weeks. She is really chanelling Leonard Cohen in this one.

Agree about the song and the Leonard Cohen sound, but Asaf is a man (not sure if your "She" was a typo). What's really cool for me is that your comment sent me looking for the video of "In a Box II," and when I saw it (and read his bio) I realized that this is the same person who composed the music and sang in a live dance performance that my daughter was in last year in NYC. My husband and I met him after the show, and he was very nice. As with Dark, his music was an integral and compelling part of the performance. In the photo accompanying this review, Asaf is in the black shirt on the left side of the table. (And of course I have to brag that my daughter is in the red dress at the front of the photo.) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/arts/dance/shamel-pitts-black-velvet-bobbi-jene-smith-lost-mountain.html 

[marinw]

8 hours ago, Paloma said:

Agree about the song and the Leonard Cohen sound, but Asaf is a man (not sure if your "She" was a typo).

My mistake. I would edit if I still could.

Edited July 6, 2020 by marinw

[marinw]

I do respect the show for having the transformation of Jonas into Adam happen mostly off-screen. We just had that one shot of Jonas burning his arm to foreshadow how the transformation was going to happen. Not many shows can practice restraint when it comes to body horror.

Edited July 6, 2020 by marinw

[iMonrey]

Quote

His mother (Jana) was not in the loop, but his father (Tronte) was--Tronte was apparently the son of the Unknown son of Martha,

Ulrich's father, Tronte, was the son of Agnes. Agnes was the daughter of Bartosz and Silja. Agnes would not have been born in the origin world because there was no time travel to send Bartosz back in time, and Silja is Hannah's daughter who was also born via time travel. 

Quote

Why wasn't the son of Martha and Jonas given a name, and and what was the significance of the lack of a name?

I'm assuming that Martha was so devastated by Jonah's death - which she is responsible for - that she never viewed her son as anything but a means to an end. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by iMonrey

[Paloma]

44 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Quote

His mother (Jana) was not in the loop, but his father (Tronte) was--Tronte was apparently the son of the Unknown son of Martha,

Ulrich's father, Tronte, was the son of Agnes. Agnes was the son of Bartosz and Silja. Agnes would not have been born in the origin world because there was no time travel to send Bartosz back in time, and Silja is Hannah's daughter who was also born via time travel. 

Tronte was the son of Agnes (who was the daughter of Bartosz and Silja, not their son), but he was also the son of the Unknown (son of Martha)--at least that is what I think we are supposed to believe based on what the Unknown man said to Tronte as a boy when they met in the woods. The Unknown man didn't explicitly say he was Tronte's father, but didn't he say that he named him? He also gave Tronte his mother's bracelet. 

In any case, I think we are saying the same thing--that Tronte could not exist in the Origin world (because his parents were the result of time travel) and therefore his son Ulrich could not exist either.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Agnes (who was the daughter of Bartosz and Silja, not their son)

Fixed it! And yes, there are two reasons why Tronte would never have existed and therefore, Ulrich or his three children. 

[Natalie25]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:44 PM, Paloma said:

I have questions about the Unknown trio, probably unanswerable based on show information, that seem important: Why wasn't the son of Martha and Jonas given a name, and and what was the significance of the lack of a name? Who raised him and where/when? Eva's/Martha's goal was to keep him/them alive, but there didn't seem to be any relationship between the trio and her or even between the trio and the other Marthas. In one of the last episodes, the child and the adult Unknown hugged one of the young Marthas (I'm not sure which one), but she didn't seem to know them.

This was my question too. She keeps perpetuating the loop to keep him alive, but then doesn't even name him? I guess that's part of the loop as well? She doesn't name him because she knows he never had a name, and she's trying to keep the loop.

I think the Martha that the Unknown hugs is the one that doesn't choose to save Jonas (and kills him instead). Bartosz brings her to Eva who gives her the scar. Then the little boy version of Unknown hugs her - maybe so she'll start to love him and to have more motivation to kill Jonas?

[marinw]

So what did Bartosz and Jonas do for money when not inventing time travel? Adam certianly had a nice library/art gallery there by the early 2oth Century.

Edited July 6, 2020 by marinw

[Paloma]

35 minutes ago, marinw said:

So what did Bartosz and Jonas do for money when not inventing time trvael? Adam certianly had a nice library/art gallery there by the early 2oth Century.

Well, as Marty McFly found out, one advantage of time travel is that you can make profitable bets and investments in the past based on knowledge you gain in the future. Jonas was probably too pure to do this, but maybe Adam had his minions do this. I'm sure Bartosz wouldn't be averse to making money this way--didn't Noah recruit him initially to take over Erik Obendorf's drug sales in the first season?

[enchantingmonkey]

Claudia wins!  While Claudia was one of my favorites, I wished that Martha would have allowed the car accident to happen and perpetuate the cycle once again, or perhaps in some new way.  Martha didn't have much agency in Jonas' world but I loved that Martha/Eve worked to keep the knot alive in her own world and in Jonas' world.  Obviously, Claudia knew what she was doing by going to Jonas/Adam and convincing him to go to the Origin World and prevent the accident, because he was so intent on destroying both of the looping worlds.  And having young Jonas steal young Martha into the Origin World was smart, because I don't think older Martha/Eve would have agreed to preventing the accident.   

I don't agree that Jonas' and Martha's worlds were a mistake but I can see how Claudia would see them that way, as she was motivated by keeping Regina alive and likely had to convince herself there was a good reason to destroy J-and-M's worlds.  I liked how Martha and Claudia were both driven by the love for their child, it's just that Claudia had the advantage of knowing about the Origin World and how she could use that to end Martha's perpetuation of the loops.  Well played, Claudia.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

So what did Bartosz and Jonas do for money when not inventing time travel? Adam certianly had a nice library/art gallery there by the early 2oth Century.

Sic Mundus was already established, correct? So collectively they may have been funding Jonas, Bartosz, Magnus and Franziska since they were working on creating a time machine.

[sistermagpie]

On 6/30/2020 at 5:45 PM, iMonrey said:

They more or less explained what Alexander's backstory was, but I felt like that character was not fully developed.

Did they? I think I missed it! Where did he come from? Besides stumbling into the woods shot with a fake passport? ETA: I think that must be what's being referred to, that he was just a guy who stumbled into town and not anybody's great grandfather?

I loved the ending. There's a lot didn't understand but the basic underlying emotional premise held true (unlike on Lost!). The world was created by a man who couldn't let his family die, and that was mirrored in a lot of character stories in those worlds where people were always desperately trying to get back to people or hold on to people. It sort of fit that Hannah, who was just always terrible--ended the series figuring out it was okay to just let go, something she certainly never learned in the loop.

It's hard for me to imagine how The Origin/Unknown could have fathered anybody. He doesn't seem that human but I guess Ulrich's mother seemed to suggest that.

Also liked that final joke of, "So what the hell happened to your eye, anyway?"

I might watch it all again. I liked the little hints of things hanging around the edges. It felt completely right that some of the people who were actually in the origin world weren't the focus, like Bernadette and the clock maker (though he was always the creator of the machine and his picture of his family was pretty obviously Very Very Important). I liked seeing that scene between the family before the accident. It held up as the reason all this happened for me. Also love the whole 70s look to the whole thing.

Though really, the show could have been subtitled "Why didn't you just tell me that?" Enough with the riddles, people. Once Claudia spit it out there was actual logic to it!

One question I was trying to work out...so I guess Jonas didn't exist in the alt-world because Mikkel didn't travel back in time, but that wasn't strictly significant? Like to me it seemed like Jonas not existing at all was too big of change. But I guess that was the show playing fair about where it was going, because where Martha and the others were born of the loop, Jonas was a double loop. Not only was he a fourth generation time-travel baby, his already time-created father traveled around in time again, like a loop within a loop, like Charlotte and Elisabeth. But wait, then why did Charlotte and Elisabeth exist in the alt-world? Was it because Jonas's existence was actually down to his own actions? He brought Mikkel to the cave to create himself? But in the alt-verse Noah could have been motivated some other way?

Whoa. I just confused myself. Thanks so much for that link to the video. Maybe that will help.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by sistermagpie

[enchantingmonkey]

On 7/5/2020 at 9:49 AM, Natalie25 said:

This part was quite sad for me - it was clear that Regina and Alexander really loved each other and had a good marriage, but Regina does seem happy in the end.

It's funny that Claudia's motivation was to preserve the Origin World because that's where Regina was still living, but Regina seemed to be the only woman with a loving husband in the Looping Worlds, unlike the other adult women who were in failing relationships.  For all we know Regina is in love with Woller in the Origin World and Hannah seduced him away from her.  I think Hannah is great but we all know what she's capable of.  

[Natalie25]

8 hours ago, enchantingmonkey said:

For all we know Regina is in love with Woller in the Origin World and Hannah seduced him away from her.  I think Hannah is great but we all know what she's capable of.  

Apparently there's a scene in Season 2 where Woller tells Clausen that he thinks Hannah is the prettiest girl in Winden, and everyone thinks it's odd that she married Michael. So I guess he's always been in love with her! It's crazy that the show planted that back in Season 2 and they end up together at the end.

[shrewd.buddha]

I think the scorched earth(s) approach by Claudia/Jonas was the only satisfactory outcome to all the timeline pollution done by so many of the characters. 
There didn't seem to be any typical heroes in the show and no real sympathetic characters - - except, maybe, young Jonas and young Martha. But old Jonas/Adam and old Martha/Eva were really horrible, cold-blooded murderers. 
There was also a lot of characters who murdered their own parents or their own children: Claudia, Jonas, Kathrina's Mom, Martha's nameless son(s), etc.  A big chunk of season 3 felt like a killing spree.

And no version of Martha seemed that attached to the son that she was supposed to be trying to preserve by saving her world's timeline. 

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 12:24 PM, bettername2come said:

Just finished and I feel like I while this has always been a good show, I’ve never truly understood what was happening in it at all. The ending gave me the same feeling.

 I agree 100%. Their was a lot of characters and I tried to remember everyone's name so when they time traveled I would know who's who but I couldn't so it became really confusing to me.

I don't think it's a show I will watch again but I thought they did a good job wrapping it up and I thought they did a great job with the special effects and music.

So, I guess Jonas get born after all but maybe not Martha because her mom didn't look pregnant.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Did they? I think I missed it! Where did he come from? Besides stumbling into the woods shot with a fake passport? ETA: I think that must be what's being referred to, that he was just a guy who stumbled into town and not anybody's great grandfather?

A big part of Season 2 was Claussen investigating the disappearances of the children but really he was there investigating Alexander. By the end of the season we learned that Claussen's brother had been killed and that Alexander had taken his identity. So that's who Alexander "really" was. Fake Alexander's name was actually Boris (something) and in season 3 he told that to his son Bartosz, and said there had been a murder but it had been an accident. He apparently knew he would be accused so that's why he ran away to Winden and assumed the identity of the boy who had been killed. Taking Regina's last name in marriage probably made it that much harder to track him down.

We just never got a lot of detail about the actual murder or the circumstances. As I stated earlier, I found it strange that Claussen played such a big part in Season 2 but was absent in Season 3. It makes me wonder if they had something more planned and had to drop it if the actor wasn't available.

Quote

I think the scorched earth(s) approach by Claudia/Jonas was the only satisfactory outcome to all the timeline pollution done by so many of the characters. 

True, but I'm not sure I understand what motive Jonas and Martha would have had to end their own existences. I understand Claudia's motivation: the believes Regina will live in the origin timeline. What the heck to Jonas and Marta get out of it? They get nothing - literally. 

Quote

So, I guess Jonas get born after all but maybe not Martha because her mom didn't look pregnant.

Well it won't be Jonas because the baby will have a different father. It will just be some other child of Hannah's with the same name.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

A big part of Season 2 was Claussen investigating the disappearances of the children but really he was there investigating Alexander. By the end of the season we learned that Claussen's brother had been killed and that Alexander had taken his identity. So that's who Alexander "really" was. Fake Alexander's name was actually Boris (something) and in season 3 he told that to his son Bartosz, and said there had been a murder but it had been an accident. He apparently knew he would be accused so that's why he ran away to Winden and assumed the identity of the boy who had been killed. Taking Regina's last name in marriage probably made it that much harder to track him down.

We just never got a lot of detail about the actual murder or the circumstances. As I stated earlier, I found it strange that Claussen played such a big part in Season 2 but was absent in Season 3. It makes me wonder if they had something more planned and had to drop it if the actor wasn't available.

Ah, that part I remembered. I thought maybe there was something else about him that linked him to the time travel, but no, his origin was just a straightforward human secret. Only on this show would this be a side issue!

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

True, but I'm not sure I understand what motive Jonas and Martha would have had to end their own existences. I understand Claudia's motivation: the believes Regina will live in the origin timeline. What the heck to Jonas and Marta get out of it? They get nothing - literally. 

I think they realized their lives weren't really true lives since they were just doomed to continue the same cycle over and over. It's like what Hannah says at the end--their lives are ending, but there's a relief to letting go and getting off the hamster wheel. They accepted that everybody was going to die and they couldn't change even the most tragic deaths.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Well it won't be Jonas because the baby will have a different father. It will just be some other child of Hannah's with the same name.

Yeah, it's like when she focuses on the yellow raincoat when thinking about her dream. Jonas lived on as a half-remembered dream and she retained a liking for the name.

[Natalie25]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

True, but I'm not sure I understand what motive Jonas and Martha would have had to end their own existences. I understand Claudia's motivation: the believes Regina will live in the origin timeline. What the heck to Jonas and Marta get out of it? They get nothing - literally.

I think Jonas' motivation makes sense - Adam has always wanted to end the worlds and (everyone's suffering within it). It makes sense to me that this version of Jonas, even though he won't grow up to be Adam, has a similar understanding of the world. In both seasons 1 and 2 Jonas was okay with not existing if it meant that his father would live. This was more on a bigger scale - but Jonas has always felt that he was wrong, and I'm not surprised that he would agree with Claudia in ending the time loop.

I'm not really understanding alt-Martha's motivation (or the character at all, to be honest). The version of Jonas she loves was the one that was saved and then died, and she only knew him for a few short hours. The Martha who helps Jonas end the worlds doesn't know that version of Jonas, so that connection to him isn't there. The only thing I can think of is that Eva's entire motivation was to continue the existence of her son (the Unknown). But the version of Martha that Jonas saves to help him end the world doesn't yet know she's pregnant, and is already expecting an apocalypse to end her own world anyway. Maybe the chance to be with a version of Jonas was enough for her to help him.

[bannana]

On 6/28/2020 at 8:02 PM, dbklmt said:

Regarding the ending Pete Peppers has a fantastic new video: Dark Season 3 Ending Explained.  Do not watch until you've finished Season 3. 

Thank you!  I really wish I had discovered PP's vids earlier, I clearly missed a lot, even though I thought I was following along!

[wanderingstar]

I kinda wanted Alt-Martha to get a t-shirt made with "Not Your Martha" on it so she wouldn't have to say it every time she met someone from Original Recipe Martha's life.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Gillian Rosh