S03.E21: Snow Drifts/S03.E22: There's No Place Like Home

[scarynikki12]

42 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

This episode(s) shows what Once could be when they stop trying for stupid twists and just let the fun adventure happen. Trying to be dramatic or "dark but not bleak" really took the fun out of this show.

Not to mention showing Regina for who she really was rather than claiming the light is green when it's clearly red.

[daxx]

Wow Emma, way to deflect the attention back to Snowing. 😂 

i always skip this scene with Robin and Regina. It’s even more irritating than I remember. Regina didn’t go into the tavern to meet her soulmate because she loved the power her anger gave her not because she was afraid. I call bullshit on this whole scene.

Another scene I skip on rewatches

Spoiler

and even worse after seeing the future of Rumbelle.

Emma smacks Hook like she’s so very comfortable with him. “Like mother like daughter” 🙂

she’s just stubborn like her... like all of our family, good save Charming.

Would Regina feel magic being used in her presence? I think she should be able to.

Poor Colin having tomhaul that enormous book around the whole two episodes.

aww, “don’t you care about anyone in this town?”

On first watch I thought her phone dropping would be significant somehow. But no.

Spoiler

No Hook, you’ll never stop chasing after her. 

If he knows about real estate prices perhaps he and Henry were looking at places together.

emma what exactly were you going to say to the evil queen?

I love this outfit. No way she got into that without Hooks help. Snicker.

This show really is gorgeous. Sigh. They had amazing videographers and Vancouver is so pretty.

i just love that Hook immediately took partial blame for the incident when it was all Emma. “What did we do?” 

It’s so gold. You’ll stop noticing. 😂 love Rumple when he’s all gold and sparkly.

Emma is so bad, she keeps talking about things Rumple and Belle shouldn’t know. 😂 the looks Hook is giving in the background are fantastic.

There I am, rather dashing. What are you doing?  Emma actually you aren’t his usual type. He tends to lean towards brunettes.

The innuendo is strong in this scene.

Spoiler

It’s a shame they never had Emma use the term nightcap to Hook back in Storybrooke. That would’ve been a fun scene. 

They look so pretty together in those outfits. God I love this episode. 

Charming and Abigail, so much passive aggressiveness.

im assuming Regina wasn’t planning to dance since she has a big ole train? Oh wait, 

Spoiler

She never learned to dance. Rightttt. Smh.

This is One of the very few times they actually let Hook swashbuckle.

end part one.

[KAOS Agent]

19 minutes ago, daxx said:

They look so pretty together in those outfits.

Too bad they didn't show Emma's shoes. I think it was Jen who tweeted out a picture of them. They were gold sandals with little crocodiles on them. Gold had a sense of humor.

21 minutes ago, daxx said:

Emma smacks Hook like she’s so very comfortable with him.

I always loved how Emma just went digging into Hook's bag for the book and he didn't even blink. No way he'd let anyone else do that. Those two worked really well together and I enjoyed their adventures before Emma acknowledged the romantic feelings between them. It's a much better dynamic than other pairings for Emma. Hook could call her on her shit without being mean about it and she could respond without moaning about how hard her life is. Emma/Charming was another pairing I liked and I wish we'd gotten a little of that in this episode. Prince Charming asking Princess Leia to dance or something would've been awesome.

The Hook/Charming campfire chat was fun.  I loved their reactions to Red stripping down and going all wolf. This episode made excellent use of their fairytale origins and the ridiculousness of the whole situation.

[daxx]

I usually skip this one too. Neal reminds me too much of my ex with the smarmy charm but he’s actually talking down to you.

That whole idea that you have to leave before you know you have a home is so messed up.

Charming is so pleased with himself. Oh, when he folds up the poster it says Snow White but a second before it didn’t.

No Snow, you didn’t ruin Regina’s life, Cora and Regina did that. Hook giving Charming a hope/ true love speech is priceless. “I hope you remember that”

“you’re  depriving me of a dashing rescue.” 

Snow this was a terrible plan. Sigh. Regina’s right, you are pretty stupid right now.

The dust must have made her an enchanted ladybug in order to avoid that fire. How did you recognize her Charming?

Emma’s so happy to see her and Snow is so awkward.

Hook has a vivid imagination about things that could happen from Marion being alive. “I guess we’re kidnapping you.”

I still love this scene with the ring. Don’t worry Emma, I’m crying too.

”must run in the family.” 

The timeline must want to reset itself, Regina even turns the trolls to bugs and squishes one like in the original scene.

Spoiler

Zelena has to be tired of faking passed out at this point. Still doesn’t make sense.

Don’t play with the stuff in the dark vault Hook.

truth tea dish it to her Hook. that coat really does a lot to make Colin look bigger than he is.

Oh, god, the “he died a hero” nonsense. Whyyyyyy.

”what the hell am I doing in here?”

”I missed you” cries.

ugh, coronation ceremony? You mean naming ceremony I think, and no he didn’t save anyone and you didn’t even know him you morons. 

Emma just realized she was missing someone else. Oh, she used your name, that got his attention. I remember stalking the set stalkers the night of the scene outside grannies. Such speculation that there was a kiss between Emma and Hook, the scene blocked with a big white screen. I was so happy to finally see the scene. I was watching it in a hotel the morning after a day at Disneyland watching on Hulu probably the only episode that season I didn’t watch live. I regrettably was spoiled for it since I hit tumblr for a second before bed and the kiss was everywhere of course.

Spoiler

I wish they had left Marion as Marion. It would have made for a more interesting story if they had let Robin find out that the evil queen killed her and then they would have to work through that. But alas.

Elsa? Is that you? Sigh hiatus time again. That had to be the best hiatus ever! We were so excited all summer. 

Colin and Jen were so cute at comicon because they could finally talk about CaptainSwan.

As much as I bitch about this show when they did good they did real good and I miss those possibilities. We come to the end of my very favorite episode and favorite season. I will stick with the rewatch though.

[Shanna Marie]

There's so much I love about this episode(s), but I suspect I've been watching the good parts and fast-forwarding through other parts because the parts that are bad are really awful. Like the fireside date between Regina and Robin.

Spoiler

Especially since, after all his talk about what he went through when he lost Marian and how he'd walk through fire to get her back, he instantly ditches her to sleep with Regina behind her back while she's under a curse. And Regina never feels the least bit bad at realizing that she was the one who put him through the pain he talked about.

The setup is really rather clumsy, starting with the timeline. They show Zelena's "essence" or whatever coming out of Regina's vault and starting the big column of light from the barn at night. But apparently no one notices the giant pillar of light in the sky that started at least the night before, even though it's visible from inside the diner. I can't find a way to make that make any sense. It starts during nighttime, there are scenes in the daytime (and it's been long enough that Snow is out of the hospital with the baby), but they don't notice the pillar of light until nearly nightfall the next day. Plus, when we go into the scene at the diner, Leroy and Granny are talking as though they know Zelena is dead. They even use the phrase "ding dong," which generally would be taken to mean "the wicked witch is dead." But they don't seem to know Zelena is dead until they see the pillar of light and go to the jail to see what happened. But if Rumple killed her the night before and it's almost nighttime when they go back to the jail and discover that she's dead, did no one in the sheriff's office go check on her at any point? I know she's a villain, but no food or water? And even if they're not above being that cruel, it doesn't look like there are toilets in those cells, so there's going to have been a mess after 24 hours or so with no one taking the prisoner to the bathroom. I think they also got a bit mixed up about Aurora, with the talk that if she'd been a monkey a day longer, they'd have had to change diapers on a flying monkey. But she was pregnant before Snow was, so either the pregnancy was frozen while she was a monkey, in which case she may then have at least six months of pregnancy still to go through, or she should have already given birth while a monkey.

The exposition for the "coronation ceremony" is rather awkward. For one thing, David's the one explaining how it's done in their land, but he wasn't royalty, and he and Snow are about the same age, so he wouldn't have been around for any previous ceremonies. How would he know what the custom was? Wouldn't Snow be the one to explain it, to both David and Emma? And there's the fact that "coronation" means putting a crown on. That's not what announcing the name is. I'm also a little bothered by them taking a newborn only a day old out in public like that. Back in their land, they might have stood on the palace balcony, but that's very different from sitting in the middle of a crowded public place with a child that young. I was cringing.

It really feels like all of this arc was purely to set up the scenario to allow them to do this episode -- Zelena's plot, all of Emma's talk about wanting to go back to New York. There's a lot of hand waving to get there, and there's a bit of idiot plotting with Emma walking right up to the time portal in spite of supposedly having no powers, but it's so much fun once we do finally get going (I didn't remember it taking so long to get to the time travel, but I guess I fast forward a lot). Hook and Emma look so nice in that setting. The natural light in the outdoors is good to them. I love the banter between them and then between them and Rumple. The whole escapade of the two Hooks is great, and I love that there's a subtle difference between the way Colin plays past Hook and present Hook. I still love the little detail that when Emma approaches past Hook with her cleavage all out, his eyes go straight to her face (I'm dying to know if that's scripted, directed, or Colin being a gentleman).

Weird little thing I noticed on this viewing: In the flashback with Emma and Neal, he drops his glove when they're getting on the swings and Emma picks it up, so they have that conversation with him having one hand in a black glove, a lot like Hook when he's not using the hook, or like Hook in disguise in this episode (though I think he mostly wears both gloves as Prince Charles). I wonder if that's supposed to be some kind of meaningful foreshadowing.

Why does Midas greet Regina as "my queen"? He's a king. She's barging into his kingdom with her own guards and arresting one of his guests in his castle. I don't think these writers understand royalty. It would have solved a lot of problems if he'd taken off his glove and shaken her hand.

[profdanglais]

I love how Hook just understands how time travel works. Or one of the prevailing theories anyway. 

This is peak Rumpel, IMO. I like him so much better as a conniving imp with a wry sense of humour ("Because what you had before was such an intricate disguise?") than as the all-powerful ultimate evil. 

Snow is not the greatest bandit -- she doesn't hear Charming come clomping into the room and why TF did she just stand there holding the ring for like half an hour instead of getting the heck out of there. 

(Also the ring is so ugly. I hated it from the beginning. Couldn't they have got one that looked more old-timey? It looks like something you could buy at Claire's)

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

In the flashback with Emma and Neal, he drops his glove when they're getting on the swings and Emma picks it up, so they have that conversation with him having one hand in a black glove, a lot like Hook when he's not using the hook, or like Hook in disguise in this episode (though I think he mostly wears both gloves as Prince Charles). I wonder if that's supposed to be some kind of meaningful foreshadowing.

Neal picked up Emma's glove. Michael Raymond James talked about that in an interview and how he played with the glove the same way Brando did in "On the Waterfront". It was quite deliberate and meant to reflect some of the same things of Neal/Emma's relationship that it did in the movie.

[andromeda331]

I love these two episodes. This was what kept me from dropping the show after so many terrible episodes in 3B. Had I known it wasn't going to get better I would have bailed. I love this episode its a fun adventure. Fun seeing Emma and Hook in EF together Emma's reaction to everything. Her distracting past Hook I love her not worried at all remarking that they know she's his type and throwing her drink over her shoulder and Hook deciding to carry her. Present Hook's reaction to his past self. And punching him. Also is there a bigger way to show how much he changed? So much that he punched himself in the past? Much better then Regina and her past self. I like Rumple helping them. Emma enjoying getting to watch her parents fall in love. Charming, Hook and Red coming to rescue her only for her to save herself. I love her picking Leia as her name. It was so perfect and I love the red dress she wears, Her kidnapping Marion. I love Hook's suggestions on what could happen if they let her go what if she gets drunk one night and kills a dwarf? Snow bluffing the Trolls. 

The only parts I hate is Robin and Regina and Marion since we know how badly that ends up. Snow's stupid plan to kill Regina and Emma forgetting once she gets back that she saw Regina murder her mother in the past. I also hate Rumple and Belle since we now know how badly that goes. And yes one thing that can't be said enough Snow you did not ruin Regina's life. Cora and Regina ruined her life. She ruined your life. She murdered your father, stole everything you had and tried to murder you so many times for something that was not your fault! 

Edited January 12, 2019 by andromeda331

[Camera One]

l loved how they got Abigail back for this episode, but of course, they didn't bother using her in the present-day.  I think over time, they lost their ability to write period-appropriate dialogue in the Enchanted Forest.  For example, Charming got back into the carriage after Snow was scared off in the alternate timeline, and Abigail said "You almost gave me a heart attack", even though no one would have referred to "heart attacks" in medieval times.

Having said that, I did love the moment of recognition that Emma got when she saw Charming and realized what moment she just walked in on.  

Spoiler

Too bad the show didn't continue... can you imagine an episode in Season 10 called "Jacinda Falls"?  We could have seen a grown-up Lucy seeing how Jacinda and Henry met for the first time.  I must go before I swoon.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

For example, Charming got back into the carriage after Snow was scared off in the alternate timeline, and Abigail said "You almost gave me a heart attack", even though no one would have referred to "heart attacks" in medieval times.

Spoiler

Just wait until Elsa says "dating" in 4A.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Spoiler

Too bad the show didn't continue... can you imagine an episode in Season 10 called "Jacinda Falls"?

 

Spoiler

The heel on Jacinda's glass slipper breaks and she falls. I'm disappointed we didn't get to see that repeatedly.

[tennisgurl]

Snow Drifts: 

Its a fun, swash buckling time travel episode, and after the boredom and annoyance of the Zelena plot and the endless worshiping of Regina was starting to reach to further and further horrible heights. There is so much awesome Captain Swan stuff here, and every time I watch the waltz scene, I swoon endlessly. I also like how they get tied into the start of the Charmings love story, and Emma beaming when she saw her dad for the first time, and realized she was going to see how her parents met. Its also fun seeing old Hook and contrasting him with current Hook, and how much clear disdain current Hook has for his past self. 

This is also pretty much Peak Rumple in the flashbacks. Imp Rumple is at his best when he is a mysterious magical being that has his own agenda that no one really understands, and can be helpful or harmful, depending on the moment. But no matter what, he is always fun to have around, with lots of funny quips and hammy hand gestures. I like him best this way, not as either a sadistic monster or a whinny woobie. And his interactions with Emma and Hook are just perfect. 

Hi Ruby! Hi Abigail! This is still when Abigail is still a one note mean girl, but even here she has has some good moments. ""its all gold." "...you get used to it." 

Why in the world is King Midas calling Regina "My Queen" when she shows up? I get why he wants to be on her good side, but she isnt "his" queen, the man has his own kingdom! She is just his super powerful neighbor he doesent want to piss off because he knows what a psychopath she is. So, why does she have so much power here? And its kind of weird how everyone here is just Prince and Princess whatever, without having to specify what kingdom they're actually from. Is everyone not a peasant a prince or princess in this world? Is it like Imperial Russia where prince or princess is just another noble title, and not the relatives of a king or queen? You can do whatever you want in a fairytale kingdom, but could we get an explanation please!

"Regina!" "Not Regina. The Evil Queen." Oh dont even go there, Hook. I know what you meant, but you are setting a very dangerous resident there. 

 

Theres no place like home: 

I kind of like how they tie these episodes into the idea of home, which is a pretty big part of the Wizard of Oz, but with Zelena gone, and no other references to Oz, it just seems like a random capper to the season. Which is fine, because I like it a whole lot more than most of the season, and the Oz stuff has always been pretty half assed, but its a weird way to end the season. 

I do love a lot of this episode, and its great seeing Abigail and Ruby again, and they actually get a couple of things to do! And the emotional journey of Emma is really well done, and her interactions with her parents, both in the present and the past, are really well done.

I still dont get why they wrote Neal dying in such a stupid, not heroic way if they wanted to retroactively declare him a saint. This is one of the Saint Neal episodes of the whole series, and its so freaking ridiculous, I actually want to go back and watch Neal's last episode, just to make sure I am remembering it right. Its so over the top, you expect them to write to the fantasy Pope to get him officially made Patron Saint of Awesome. I also never liked that they named the baby after Neal. Emma, even on her best days, had very complicated feelings about Neal (remember her secret in Neverland?) and is still mourning his loss, so this seems like it would be quite painful for her, especially as they never even asked her what she thought out it before announcing it to everyone. Hell, they could have asked Rumple about what he though, Neal was his son after all! "He died a hero!" Yeah, whatever you say, show. And Snow caused the death of Daniel. 

The wedding of Belle and Rumple is quite nice in a vacuum, but in the greater scheme of things, its just a big mess. How did they come up with this? When did Bells father get behind this? And lets not forget, Rumple is playing her! He is lying about this huge thing between them, as well as about what happened with Zelena, and thats how their marriage is starting! If I was a Rumpbelle friend, I would be pissed. I did like Bells outfit though, even if I have no idea why her outfit was 1920s fashioned. 

Love the fireside chat between Charming and Hook, and Ruby as a wolf, and how they use a fairytale motif. 

And now we have to talk about Regina and Robin. Uggggggg. Yeah, sure you'd walk through fire for Marion, Robin. We will see about that very soon, wont we, Robbie? Poor, poor Marion. You know who I dont feel bad for? Regina. This really says a lot about her, and her so called redemption. Even when what Emma did was clearly a good thing, its a problem for Regina, so therefore it bad, and everyone should feel bad. "Your just like your mother, you never think about the consequences!" The consequences...FOR ME!!!!! She doesent bother being happy or even conflicted that her boyfriend found the love of his life or the kid she kind of adopted has his mother back, this is a Bad Thing because its inconvenient for Her. Who cares that Regina murdered this innocent woman? Emma isnt that freaked out seeing her bestie burn her mother alive while she smiles evilly, so I guess why would she care, but you would think this would be played as more conflicted, and not "oh Emma, you asshole! Another member of the family screwing over Poor Regina, how dare you stop Regina from committing a murder that was shurley justified because she did not worship Regina!" Its so awful, and the morality is so wonky, how am I supposed to see Regina as a hero again? She wants all the perks of being a good guy, but refuses to really be as selfless as it requires. 

These episodes have issues, mostly around the Regina and Neal messes, but I love them none the less. They're just fun, and they use the contrast between the modern and fairytale world pretty well. And so much Snowing/Captain Swan goodness!

Hi Elsa! Boy am I glad to see you!

Edited January 12, 2019 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

This is also pretty much Peak Rumple in the flashbacks. Imp Rumple is at his best when he is a mysterious magical being that has his own agenda that no one really understands, and can be helpful or harmful, depending on the moment. But no matter what, he is always fun to have around, with lots of funny quips and hammy hand gestures. I like him best this way, not as either a sadistic monster or a whinny woobie. And his interactions with Emma and Hook are just perfect. 

I wish he would've stayed dead after 3A and just came back for random cameos in flashbacks. There were plenty of opportunities to keep him "reoccurring" as so many of the stories collided with him, even when it didn't make a lot of sense.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

l loved how they got Abigail back for this episode, but of course, they didn't bother using her in the present-day.

I wish we could've gotten one scene with Kathryn interacting with Snowing in the present, just to show that there's no ill-will and that they're all fine now. It would've been a good callback to S1 Storybrooke. Maybe we could've seen her happy with Frederick for two seconds.  

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I wish we could've gotten one scene with Kathryn interacting with Snowing in the present, just to show that there's no ill-will and that they're all fine now. It would've been a good callback to S1 Storybrooke. Maybe we could've seen her happy with Frederick for two seconds.  

It’s just, you know, there’s just so many…there’s just so many people that it’s like, it’s sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina’s story. That’s just showbiz.

Hope that helps.

Love,

Eddy

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, profdanglais said:

This is peak Rumpel, IMO. I like him so much better as a conniving imp with a wry sense of humour ("Because what you had before was such an intricate disguise?") than as the all-powerful ultimate evil. 

I think this episode is peak for a lot of characters. I know there's a lot of difference of opinion over saucy and inappropriate season 2 Hook vs. later guilt-stricken Hook, but I think this episode found a good balance. There's still some sauciness and innuendo, but there's also a lot of earnest sincerity (a lot like Lt. Jones), plus a dash of heroism and swashbuckling. He's clearly contrite about his past (given that he decks his past self because he had it coming) but he's not wallowing in guilt. Likewise, I think they find a good balance for Emma, where she's got issues, but there's also a lot of hope and wonder (it helps that, for once, she doesn't have a figurative or literal sword of doom hanging over her). The Evil Queen Regina is just the right amount of evil camp without going over the edge into being a cartoonish. Even Charming got to actually do something and be his best self.

18 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Neal picked up Emma's glove.

Oh, okay, I missed that. I just saw that he seemed to be wearing one glove while Emma was holding one, so he must have put on her glove.

The whole "home is the place that when you leave, you miss it" thing was terrible advice, especially from someone who couldn't go back home. So, you're supposed to leave a place you're enjoying to see if you miss it, but what happens if you do and you realize it was home, but it's too late because you can't get back there? And it seems like the show is trying to say that he was right? I think?

17 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

This was what kept me from dropping the show after so many terrible episodes in 3B.

The finales saved the series for me in the first three seasons, now that I think about it. In season one, I was so mad about the revelation of why Regina hates Snow that I was ready to walk on the show, but I figured I'd finish out the season, and then the finale sucked me back in. I was ready to bail after the dark heart nonsense in season 2, but stuck around for the finale and got sucked back in. I was on my way out after flying light magic Regina, but I'd seen spoilers about the finale that intrigued me, and it got me excited about the show all over again.

Speaking of the reason Regina hates Snow, it seems like Snow knew what happened to Daniel when she confronted Regina, but she didn't learn the whole story until the apple curse, did she? And that bit about a child not learning that actions have consequences ... Snow hadn't had a chance to learn yet. If some similar situation had come up previously, and Snow had seen the horrible consequences, and then still did the same thing with Cora, Regina, and Daniel, then Regina could make that accusation, but it doesn't apply to what happened to Snow.

[KAOS Agent]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The whole "home is the place that when you leave, you miss it" thing was terrible advice, especially from someone who couldn't go back home.

You guys keep reminding me about all the things I disliked about the episode. I think that maybe home is meant to be missed even if gone for a short time. Say you go on a trip for a bit or study abroad or something short term. After a bit, even if you're enjoying where you are, you still miss home. You want to go back because it's where you belong. It was a poor way to put it, but I lean towards that reading of the meaning rather than you can only know home after you've left it permanently. It is truly sad that Emma never had that feeling in her entire life. It's very messed up that Regina is the one claiming victimhood in this episode when the baby whose life she destroyed and the young mother whose life she ended are the two she blames for her sad, sad life.

And you're definitely right about the Neal thing. I get that it was supposed to be a tribute and sweet and all that, but there is way too much baggage associated with Neal to spring a permanent reminder of him on both Emma and Henry without at least asking first. Even if all the memories were wonderful and not the complex mess that they are, it's not cool to do that while people are still grieving and trying to sort through it all. If they wanted to honor Neal in some way maybe they could have asked about a middle name or something. Anything but giving your kid the name of the man who knocked up your teenage daughter, set her up to take the fall for his crimes, destroyed her emotionally and took off free as a bird for parts unknown.

[Camera One]

Quote

 "home is the place that when you leave, you miss it"

Since Emma missed New York while she was in Storybrooke, did that mean New York was home?

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Since Emma missed New York while she was in Storybrooke, did that mean New York was home?

Which makes sense and also doesn't make sense. New York was where she lived with Henry for the whole year filled with fake memories. I can see why it is home. They lived together, she had a job she loved, a great wardrobe (I love that dress she wears on her date with Walsh), Henry is going to school and happy and has friends. There's no one trying to kill them. But it also was an illusion. The memories she had were fake and she was left once again believing her parents abandoned her instead of knowing they were alive and they were separated from each other once again due to Regina. 

Neal's remark about home doesn't really make sense either. He didn't leave home for any of the normal reasons. He left because his father turned into the Dark One and went back on his promise to go with Neal to LWM so they could be together and he'd lose his powers but not die. He could go back home but its still going to be with his dad as the Dark one. Its not him simply going back or unable to go back that is why he doesn't.  

[Virtual]

As good as this episode was, we at the end saw a preview to a "woe is me, why can't anything go my way? I don't do evil anymore and that should be good enough, forget about putting in the effort to make amends with everyone I wronged" Regina.

 

We would see this for the good part of the first half of Season 4, and Henry inexplicably agrees that Regina should just go to the author and ask for a happy ending instead of encouraging Regina to right the wrongs she did.

If it hadn't been Snow telling a secret that set her off, it would have been something else. Maybe she rebels against Cora eventually, and everyone else in the kingdom suffers too as collateral damage. There were always deep dark issues in Regina's psyche.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Virtual

[tennisgurl]

You know, I get that they gave Emma the rather retconned backstory that she was adopted for a bit and then given back by some assholes when she was a little older, but I have always found it hard to believe that blond, beautiful, healthy baby girl Emma was never adopted. I mean, Emma is basically the jackpot for a lot of perspective parents, and I refuse to buy that her being a few years old would keep people away from her. Later on she had some mild discipline issues, but that was it? Sadly, many parents look at a kid like Emma a million times faster than they would look at a POC or a baby with disabilities of some kind, so why not her?

I mean, it probably does happen that some kids like her do get lost in the system, but it was seemed like another thing that happened just to get Emma in the place she needed to be with her Walls and what not.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, I get that they gave Emma the rather retconned backstory that she was adopted for a bit and then given back by some assholes when she was a little older, but I have always found it hard to believe that blond, beautiful, healthy baby girl Emma was never adopted.

Not only that, but a healthy, blond, beautiful baby girl who got a lot of media coverage. When there's an abandoned baby with a dramatic story like that, there's a waiting list of people wanting to adopt her. Also, you don't get to give a kid back like that after adoption. It's even harder to surrender an adopted kid than a kid you gave birth to. "Oops, we're pregnant with our own child and don't want her anymore" wouldn't have cut it (that's something they talk about in the interviews when people are qualifying to adopt), and even if that did happen, there probably still would have been people from the waiting list who'd be eager to have her.

It might have worked better, and had more parallels to Henry, if she had been adopted, but ended up running away as a teen, like if the adopted mom was like Regina, wanting a kid to complete her life but not all that interested in actually spending time with the kid, so Emma had a home but still didn't feel loved, or if it had been like Zelena, where one parent wanted a child and the other parent wasn't keen on her, and then the parent who wanted her died.

[profdanglais]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 

You know, I get that they gave Emma the rather retconned backstory that she was adopted for a bit and then given back by some assholes when she was a little older, but I have always found it hard to believe that blond, beautiful, healthy baby girl Emma was never adopted.

 

I've said this before. 100% agree. Emma at any age would be snapped up. 

[Camera One]

If Emma had stayed on the show for a few more seasons, I wonder if we might have gotten a flashback explaining why she wasn't snapped up.  I'm sure we can all write one in a pinch.  

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If Emma had stayed on the show for a few more seasons, I wonder if we might have gotten a flashback explaining why she wasn't snapped up. 

I doubt it. They had zero interest in writing about Emma, unless maybe the reason she didn't get adopted was something her parents did, but we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

I do like the fanon that her powers manifesting caused things to happen that made foster parents uncomfortable with her, and that's why she didn't get adopted -- similar to Zelena, but with both parents being like, "Uh, the TV blows up when a news bulletin interrupts the cartoons, that kid is too freaky, get her out of our house" or "Yeah, we read that Stephen King book, we don't want the kid who can turn on her bedroom light from her crib."

[tennisgurl]

I really wish they had given us something, and there were so many ways they could have gone, and still have had Emma had issues. Like, she was adopted by people that she didnt connect with, or she was kept by that couple that had a bio kid, and always felt like she was the kid they didnt want, and she ran away as a teenager, or something. Its just so noticeable with this episode, and lovely, tragically sad teen Emma wanting a home desperately. How does she not have a million yuppies fighting over her as a baby?!

[KAOS Agent]

Even very young children in the foster system can be very screwed up. A confused and scared three year old who had just lost her home & parents could be extremely messed up and start acting out, which would make her very hard to place permanently.It's hard to say what her adoptive parents were like, but I can't see them as being all that great if they threw her away when they had a baby of their own. What kind of people would do that to a sweet little girl?  If she'd gotten into the right situation with patient people, she'd have been okay, but she was shuffled from home to home with nothing lasting longer than six months (and that six month placement was in her teens and referred to as much longer than anything else). 

A bad or overworked social worker doesn't have time to deal with problem kids. A couple of bad placements and Emma was likely shoved into a group home where that chip on her shoulder and protective walls continued to grow. By the time we see her in this episode, while she's desperate for a family, she's hyper cynical and distrusting of anyone and too old to be seriously considered for adoption when there are cute younger kids available.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, that actually sounds like an interesting origin for Emma, and would have been a good flashback episode, explaining more of how she became the way she is, and how she got those walls up so high. 

Spoiler

Or we can devote a flashback episode to the origin of Emma’s jacket, or her dragon bestie who will be mentioned two more times. Whatever. 

[Camera One]

This episode could have made a difference on how Emma saw Regina.  For the first time, she saw The Evil Queen and her destructiveness.  She watched her mother be burned alive.  Emma should have needed some time to deal with that and it would have affected her interactions with Regina.

Similarly, this episode blew to hell the theory that Regina could never truly follow through with killing Snow, which might explain all the attempts.  But nope.  Regina saw Snow "die" and was happy about it.  Snow and Charming's mindset towards her should also have changed a bit as a result of that.  

What if Emma had come back, and her mom had really died in the past.  I wonder how that would change the course of the story for a while.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Camera One

[daxx]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

What if Emma had come back, and her mom had really died in the past.  I wonder how that would change the course of the story for a while.

If her mom had died she’d cease to exist like what was happening with Marty McFly in back to the future when he interrupted his parents meeting.

[KAOS Agent]

That just brings up the grandfather paradox that screws up the type of time travel story used in Back to the Future and this episode. While it actually applies to any changes made to the past, the easiest way to describe it is a scenario where you go back in time and kill your grandfather before he has children, thus ensuring that you won't be born. If you were never born, then you were never around to go back and kill your grandfather. 

[KingOfHearts]

The backstory about Emma being adopted and then given up at three was actually in the Pilot, so that was always hardwired into her past. That doesn't make it any more sensical, though. The longer the show ran, the less and less Emma's backstory made any sense overall. Its pretty crazy that despite the fact she was a beautiful, sweet blonde child and that all these magical people were around to "help" her makes it unlikely she would never have positive human experiences.  Like, seriously - everyone she ever met screwed her over? The writing for Emma almost fetishizes betrayal and loneliness. It's why I could never really enjoy her as a character. Her plots were always depressing and centered around her suffering. It got really bad S4-onward.

Edited January 16, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[companionenvy]

14 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Like, seriously - everyone she ever met screwed her over? The writing for Emma almost fetishizes betrayal and loneliness. It's why I could never really enjoy her as a character. Her plots were always depressing and centered around her suffering. It got really bad S4-onward.

This is why I had to give up on the rewatch. Even though I know she winds up okay, even the plots that I thought were pretty decent revolve around emotionally torturing Emma, and post S3, she generally isn't even that central in figuring out solutions. It just isn't enjoyable to watch. Making it worse is the fact that she's often being treated ridiculously unfairly by both other characters and the narrative. 

If her backstory hadn't been so damn grim, it wouldn't have been quite as bad, but when you've had a character whose childhood has been about as bad as it could be without including something like sex slavery or living in a war-torn hellscape, there's a certain point where it just becomes excessive. And at times, it wasn't even realistic - a family giving up the three-year old they had raised for a couple of years and a non-violent juvenile offender being chained to a bed while giving birth being cases in point. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by companionenvy

[tennisgurl]

Emma's hardships at the time were so over the top, it bordered on dark comedy. Like, not only was she not adopted and supposedly abandoned on the highway, she was given back at age three because her new parents didnt want her anymore! Not only did her first love dump her, he dumped her and set her up to go to jail! Not only did Emma give birth in jail, she gave birth handcuffed to a bed! Like, holy crap, why dont you just give the poor girl the plague and get it over with! Nothing could just be like "she was in the foster system, had bad experiences with boyfriends and authority figures, and now she has trust issues", it has to be so awful, it almost creates plot holes! 

Spoiler

And all of that pales to how things end for poor Emma in S6, when her whole job is to shake in terror as she waits to die, which is apparently the only way that her life is destined to end. Its the more bloodless torture porn ever. I mean, I know that main characters on shows like these tend to suffer a lot because drama, but dear God!

[rogvortex58]

After a whole half season of Evil vs Wicked it was nice to see some of the focus put back on Emma and her journey to find home. It was great to see her finally get to be part of the world her family came from.

In the end she knew where she belonged and who she wanted to be with. My favorite finale of the series.

Edited January 21, 2019 by rogvortex58

[Shanna Marie]

Something that occurred to me as I tried one more time to reconcile the timeline and how they managed not to notice that Zelena was missing and not notice the giant column of fire visible from the diner for nearly 24 hours (at least -- maybe days): Did no one think to do something to disrupt the symbol Zelena dug into the floor of the barn for doing her spell? I guess the show Supernatural doesn't exist in their universe or none of them watched it or they'd have known that the first thing you do when you disrupt (or think you've disrupted) a spell involving things drawn on the ground is mess up the drawing so the symbol no longer works. Drag a shovel across it to break it up, scuff out part of it, fill in part of it. You don't leave it sitting there where it can be used again or where the spell might be completed. They'd have saved themselves some trouble if they'd taken the time to do that. Then Zelena's essence, or whatever that was, couldn't have activated the spell.

Also, I mentioned this in the season 4 premiere thread, but you'd think that Snow actually being nearly executed (executed but making a narrow escape) by Regina would have actually altered the timeline more than it did. In the original timeline, Regina harasses her a lot, but I don't believe she ties her to a stake and throws a fireball at her, with Charming watching. Wouldn't that have altered the way they saw Regina? Would Snow have still been okay letting Regina go when they caught her? Not that Snow's attitude toward Regina ever makes a lot of sense, but this really ramps it up to the level of ridiculous.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Wouldn't that have altered the way they saw Regina?

This is the same show where Snow was only briefly deterred by a pile of dead bodies, so.

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

This is the same show where Snow was only briefly deterred by a pile of dead bodies, so.

And the show framed that as Snow being wrong for even thinking that while staring the dead bodies of Regina's handiwork. 

[PixiePaws1]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

And the show framed that as Snow being wrong for even thinking that while staring the dead bodies of Regina's handiwork. 

Spoiler

Meanwhile Regina is off joyously burning another village while a young boy named Percival watches his family die.

...and we know what's in store for him and his quest for justice..

(Seriously..how dare he want his parents' murderer to pay!! The nerve of him!)

[KAOS Agent]

They want the Evil Queen and Regina to be two different people so that the audience separates the horrific acts in the past from poor innocent Regina except that Regina has murdered two people in Storybrooke and been an accomplice in another. She also plotted to murder everyone in the town and didn't bat an eye over the fact that she was condemning a ton of innocent people including babies (Ashley's kid would have been a few months old) to death. Regina is not some misunderstood person who learned from her mistakes with casting the curse and now deserves a second chance. She murdered Kurt Flynn just because he wanted to go home. She grinned when she learned that Owen was dead. She's not remorseful. She doesn't care about anything unless it directly affects her. In this episode, everything was wonderful until one of her victims returned from the dead. Is her immediate reaction shame and sorrow for having killed the young mother and deeply hurting Robin? No. It's to blame Emma for not letting her victim stay dead and thus ruining the life she essentially stole from the woman she murdered.

On the other hand, heaven forbid any character whose name does not begin with the letter R even begin to harbor bad feelings about someone or seek justice for themselves or defend themselves against an evil aggressor. Their pain and suffering is not sufficient to justify any kind of negative feelings or self defense. 

In this rewatch review we also largely skipped over Rumpel's horrific betrayal of Belle. He proposed on a false dagger, broke his promise about seeking revenge (I'm cool with him killing Zelena personally, but in relation to his promise to Belle and their marriage, it's messed up) and then went on to marry her while the show portrayed that part as romantic and loving. That's really sick. Belle needs to make better life choices, but if she'd done the smart thing and told Rumpel they needed to wait for a bit to build that trust and develop their relationship again, the show would have made it out like Belle was awful and poor woobie Rumpel deserves better. 

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

In this rewatch review we also largely skipped over Rumpel's horrific betrayal of Belle. He proposed on a false dagger, broke his promise about seeking revenge (I'm cool with him killing Zelena personally, but in relation to his promise to Belle and their marriage, it's messed up) and then went on to marry her while the show portrayed that part as romantic and loving. That's really sick. Belle needs to make better life choices, but if she'd done the smart thing and told Rumpel they needed to wait for a bit to build that trust and develop their relationship again, the show would have made it out like Belle was awful and poor woobie Rumpel deserves better. 

I don't fault Belle as *much* here because she thought she had just lost him forever and now she has no reason to believe he's doing anything underhanded. Rumple definitely played on her emotions by rushing the engagement and marriage. However...

Spoiler

It's after 4A where Belle learns about the fake dagger and Rumple's betrayal yet still gets back with him later. That was what was really grating to me. Belle's a bit naive and not the sharpest knife in the drawer (and God knows Rumple knows it too), but she gradually gets stupider as the seasons go on. Rumpbelle's bad, but the tipping point to me was always 5A where they get back together and get pregnant. The town line scene in 4A needed to be the end of that relationship, full stop.

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't fault Belle as *much* here because she thought she had just lost him forever and now she has no reason to believe he's doing anything underhanded. Rumple definitely played on her emotions by rushing the engagement and marriage. However...

  Reveal hidden contents

It's after 4A where Belle learns about the fake dagger and Rumple's betrayal yet still gets back with him later. That was what was really grating to me. Belle's a bit naive and not the sharpest knife in the drawer (and God knows Rumple knows it too), but she gradually gets stupider as the seasons go on. Rumpbelle's bad, but the tipping point to me was always 5A where they get back together and get pregnant. The town line scene in 4A needed to be the end of that relationship, full stop.

Spoiler

I definitely agree. At this point Belle really doesn't have any reason to believe Rumple has done anything wrong. While I do get annoyed sometimes with what Belle said in 4A but she threw him out of town which was great. But she takes him back after that. After she knew he lied about the daggar, was going to let Ingrid kill everyone in town and leave with Belle and Henry, what he did to Hook and almost did to Emma. No way. There is no way she should have taken him back. That's when we start getting the never ending good heart crap. Especially at the end of 4B when Rumple is dying because his heart is black, from his own making. It was his own fault he was dying. He had been given chance after chance and repeatedly threw it away. He made it clear power was more important then anything and anyone else including her. She just comes off as so stupid for staying with him until the end no matter what crappy, backstabbing, murdering crap he does while declaring anything small or that he did (usually something he wanted in the first place) that ended up help the heroes as good and heroic. 

[KAOS Agent]

20 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't fault Belle as *much* here because she thought she had just lost him forever and now she has no reason to believe he's doing anything underhanded. Rumple definitely played on her emotions by rushing the engagement and marriage.

What does she think happened to Zelena? Maybe they addressed that and I just don't remember, but Zelena was supposed to be in the jail and now she's not. Obviously, the Charmings didn't remove her and Regina was happy to put her there, so that leaves Rumpel, whom she expressly told not to seek revenge on Zelena, as the likely culprit for the missing woman.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

What does she think happened to Zelena? Maybe they addressed that and I just don't remember, but Zelena was supposed to be in the jail and now she's not. Obviously, the Charmings didn't remove her and Regina was happy to put her there, so that leaves Rumpel, whom she expressly told not to seek revenge on Zelena, as the likely culprit for the missing woman.

They looked at the doctored tape, and concluded that Zelena "had just enough residual magic to do herself in.  And when she did, when she was gone, the magic in her pendant had no tether. It was set free. Her last wish fulfilled."  Apparently, magical jargon explains everything.  How could they know how magic in a one-of-a-kind pendant even worked.  

Edited January 24, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

What does she think happened to Zelena? Maybe they addressed that and I just don't remember, but Zelena was supposed to be in the jail and now she's not.

Rumple doctored the security video magically to show Zelena killing herself. Before they checked the tape, Rumple used Belle as his alibi, saying Belle had the dagger and she wouldn't let him kill Zelena, and Belle backed that up. But did Belle ever specifically tell Rumple not to kill Zelena? I don't think the dagger works on things the holder kind of thinks. Belle having the dagger and not wanting him to kill Zelena wouldn't do any good unless she held the dagger and said, "Dark One, I order you not to kill Zelena," and I don't recall her doing that. If she didn't do that, then she doesn't work as an alibi. "I wouldn't let him kill Zelena, and I've got the dagger" only works as an alibi if she gave him a direct order not to kill Zelena.

20 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

In this rewatch review we also largely skipped over Rumpel's horrific betrayal of Belle. He proposed on a false dagger, broke his promise about seeking revenge (I'm cool with him killing Zelena personally, but in relation to his promise to Belle and their marriage, it's messed up) and then went on to marry her while the show portrayed that part as romantic and loving.

That's another one of those mutually exclusive things this show is so fond of. It's like "Regina is so misunderstood/Ha, it's funny when Regina rips out hearts of random innocent people or slaughters entire villages." They like Rumple best when he's deliciously evil and scheming, but then they also want to show that the relationship between Belle and Rumple is deeply loving and romantic. At least with Regina, they don't usually try to do both things simultaneously, but in this episode we see the flashback of Rumple hiding the real dagger during the romantic wedding ceremony, so I don't know what the heck they want us to feel about it. Are we supposed to be thinking this is a lovely wedding ceremony and the start of a healthy marriage, or are we supposed to find it disturbing and troubling that they're getting married based on some huge lies on his part?

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But in this episode we see the flashback of Rumple hiding the real dagger during the romantic wedding ceremony, so I don't know what the heck they want us to feel about it. Are we supposed to be thinking this is a lovely wedding ceremony and the start of a healthy marriage, or are we supposed to find it disturbing and troubling that they're getting married based on some huge lies on his part?

You are both.  The Hero part of you thinks it's a lovely wedding ceremony and the Dark part of you appreciates his lies.  

[KAOS Agent]

37 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But did Belle ever specifically tell Rumple not to kill Zelena? I don't think the dagger works on things the holder kind of thinks.

Belle gave him the dagger, but made him promise that he wouldn't go after Zelena. I don't think she was holding the dagger at the time. Then he gave it back to her, but it was a fake by then. I don't know. Rumpel is a dick and I still question Belle marrying him so quickly. I guess giving her his dagger was all she needed to trust him, which makes it all the worse really if that's what she's basing her marriage decision on.

[Camera One]

They would rather have Rumple and Belle take the big step of marriage and then have him deceive her, rather than showing them growing closer as a couple through trials and tribulations.