S13.E06: Tombstone

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean grumbled to himself. He dropped his head and shook it, which was his silent way of saying to himself "What the fuck am I doing here".  When he got to the casket and found the dead guy he called him "Sloppy Joe".  So to me with Dean making a pop culture ref to Die Hard, it fit right in with Dean's MO if not precisely exactly, 100% the same as what happened in Jump the Shark. JMHO

My point was it was 90 percent of it was silent grumbling in Jump the Shark--which is what I happen to love about the episode, all the quietness--here, there was a bit too much talking for my taste and felt more like the gag reel moment from Jump the Shark. 

ETA: Which I also find the gag reel moment a delightful addition to the gag reel, but there is a reason why it wasn't in the episode proper.

Edited November 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My point was it was 90 percent of it was silent grumbling in Jump the Shark--which is what I happen to love about the episode, all the quietness--here, there was a bit too much talking for my taste and felt more like the gag reel moment from Jump the Shark. 

He wasn't exactly sneaking up on anyone was he.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't have a problem with him mumbling to himself--what annoyed me was his clumsiness both falling in and out of the tunnels.  In Jump the Shark, there was no reason to think the ghoul was around, especially after he was trapped and was trying to find his way out.  Here, I'd think he should expect the badguy to be waiting for him (having used the policeman as bait to get to the hunter, who would be the more dangerous one) and so would be a little more discreet.  After all, the ghoul *made* those tunnels and should know them inside and out and probably would know a good place for an ambush.  But that would give too much credit to a cardboard villain.  :)  

I didn't think he was clumsy going into the tunnel at all. He was like "Oh crap, I don't want to go into"  but "Okay, I'm going" which I thought was funny. I didn't think he was clumsy when he got out either. I think it was just a bit of physical comedy which didn't bother me because Dean got stuck on the edge trying to get out which I thought was

 

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The only time I remember Sam smiling fondly at one of Dean's enthusiasms was his joy at the "big pretzel" in Monster Movie, and I assumed that was because Sam was still so happy that Dean was back that he could forgive him his "annoying" habits.  

IMO this time Sam wasn't derisive per se. I don't think he really even rolled his eyes that much. He was just like, "Okay, he's going fanboy here". To me, Sam's reaction in this one I had more to do with Dean being so happy whilst he wasn't quite trusting of the whole Cas thing.

I also think in general, Sam can't relate to Dean being able to let his fanboy fly with glee. And that might just be because Sam doesn't fanboy as openly as Dean does, which IMO is just a difference in their personalities. Like Sam is just like "Dude you are not a kid anymore" but I think he forgets that Dean wasn't allowed to be a kid when they were little so he can't understand it to a degree. I don't think it's bad either way, I just prefer it when Sam makes fun of Dean in a rolling his eyes way vs mocking his intellect to do it.

[Katy M]

57 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

BTW, I love Jump the Shark, but I don't remember Dean grumbling while he was climbing through the tunnels in the episode proper, but I do remember there is an outtake on the gag reel of it. 

I definitely remember him grumbling about how he should have thrown rock in the episode proper.

[catrox14]

Dean saying "Nope" and then doing it anyway was pretty funny and brave. Dean's been through some shit lately so him having a go at himself with the Die Hard line was pretty funny. After all, it was HIS idea to go to Dodge City in the first place thinking it would be fun for him to get his Cowboy on and then it all went crappy. I dunno for me it was a funny line that didn't seem out of place at all. JMHO

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I definitely remember him grumbling about how he should have thrown rock in the episode proper.

I remember that too. It was when he first entered the air ducts and came around a corner and saw the blood and said something to himself about throwing something different than he did. He keeps on crawling and finds another part that gets to the dirt and then he shakes his head like he's saying "Ugh, what am I doing".

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I definitely remember him grumbling about how he should have thrown rock in the episode proper.

That was when he was going through the duct system looking for Adam's mother's body. The tunnel scene was what lead to the crypt with Adam's body in the casket. Dean hates being closed in and has always let it be known even while he's in the middle of having to do it, IMO. He didn't want to go down into the little hole in the floorboards in Family Remains either and he grumbled then, also, but still went. It's perfectly IC, IMO.

[Katy M]

I was just reminded of something by something I saw in the Bitterness thread.  There is no way that shootout and Jack killing the guard was not caught on camera.  That was right outside of a bank.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I was just reminded of something by something I saw in the Bitterness thread.  There is no way that shootout and Jack killing the guard was not caught on camera.  That was right outside of a bank.

I think Dean might have "taken" care of that and if not I'll bet Sgt. Phillips did once he realized what was up. But it will be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

[Dobian]

I thought the episode was pretty paint by numbers and was expecting more.  They could have done a lot with the cowboy theme.  I never felt any suspense in this one, even the rescue was boring.  I do like Jack as a character, at least he's played by an actor who makes him likeable. 

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

That was when he was going through the duct system looking for Adam's mother's body. The tunnel scene was what lead to the crypt with Adam's body in the casket. Dean hates being closed in and has always let it be known even while he's in the middle of having to do it, IMO. He didn't want to go down into the little hole in the floorboards in Family Remains either and he grumbled then, also, but still went. It's perfectly IC, IMO.

As I've been saying, I don't think it's out of character, but the tone of it just seems more gag reel than episode, to me. It just feels like an ad lib moment that a stronger director might have been able to turn into something more. Which is kinda how I felt about the whole episode and how I've felt about all the episodes Nina Lopez-Corrodo has directed. It seems to me she's not a very strong director is all.

[catrox14]

Legit LOL'd at this.

 

[catrox14]

I meant to mention this previously.

Dean: "I'm sick and tired of things that look like other things"

HOLY MOTHER OF FORESHADOWING, BATMAN.

This is gonna bite Dean in the ass. I think that bite is going to come in the form of Cas not being Cas.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I meant to mention this previously.

Dean: "I'm sick and tired of things that look like other things"

HOLY MOTHER OF FORESHADOWING, BATMAN.

This is gonna bite Dean in the ass. I think that bite is going to come in the form of Cas not being Cas.

I'm going to be seriously annoyed beyond seriously annoyed if that isn't Cas. 1. the other thing seemed to just want to sleep.  2. If he did want to come to earth why hang out with Sam and DEan to hunt?  Surely he could find something better to do.  And, if he just wanted Jack, surely he could have just taken him.  3. There didn't seem to be any missteps that would clue us into him not being Cas.  4. I'm sick and tired of Cas not being Cas.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

.  3. There didn't seem to be any missteps that would clue us into him not being Cas.  4. I'm sick and tired of Cas not being Cas.  

I found several moments where I was side-eying Cas. J

1) When they first met him again. I was surprised he didn't go in for a hug at the same time as Dean TBH. Like I think about his practically jumping in Dean's arms in 12.1. But I put that off to him being weird after being sent back.

2) When he met Jack, I expected Jack to immediately recognize him and I thought his "Castiel?" and Castiel saying "Yes, it's me" was weird but again put it to Cas being different from being in the Empty.

3) Cas not being able to heal the bank guard at all. No grace light nothing.

In general, he seemed like he had to think about his answers vs just answering. He seemed to hold his face differently. His body language wasn't quite the same. Everything just seemed slightly off to me. And that might be because he's lost some of his mojo from being killed.

If it is Cas maybe he is graceless and is more or less human now. And doesn't quite know that. I mean he did get stabbed with an angel blade and that theoretically would kill his grace.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm going to be seriously annoyed beyond seriously annoyed if that isn't Cas. 1. the other thing seemed to just want to sleep.  2. If he did want to come to earth why hang out with Sam and DEan to hunt?  Surely he could find something better to do.  And, if he just wanted Jack, surely he could have just taken him.  3. There didn't seem to be any missteps that would clue us into him not being Cas.  4. I'm sick and tired of Cas not being Cas.  

I'm sick and tired of Cass not being Cass too and will also be seriously annoyed if that's not Cass for all the reasons you laid out. But, No. 2 got me to thinking about the whole debate about whether Chuck was God or not. Before it was definitely stated that Chuck was God, my assertion was that he wasn't God until Swan Song because I just thought God would have better things to do than hang out at a Supernatural convention and such... .

Still, I believe in the little tree topper, so I say Cass is Cass...for now. ;)

[Jeddah]

It has to be Cas! The guy from the Empty wouldn’t have known Val Kilmer was in Tombstone.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Jeddah

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

It has to be Cas! The guy from the Empty wouldn’t have known Val Kilmer was in Tombstone.

EK (Empty Keeper) tiptoed through Cas' mind and he knows everything Cas knows, feels and thinks. He told him so. Thus since Cas had Metatron's data download and he watched Tombstone starring Val Kilmer with Dean at some point, then EK would be able to access that information.

I just can't see the reason for the show to introduce the EK doppelganger and do nothing with it. Maybe it is Cas now and we'll get the EK doppelganger later. But I'm side-eying this hard.

Plus the foreshadowing with Buddy wearing Dean's face and a ghoul wearing Dave's face, I just think that's going to come into play in a much more painful way for Dean and Sam down the road, either with Cas, Jack, Mary maybe being possessed by Lucifer. Maybe Dean will end up being the thing that looks like another thing. I just think something bad is coming.

Edited November 17, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I just think something bad is coming.

::snort:: Heh, what show have you been watching...something bad is always coming. ;)

[Diane]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: Heh, what show have you been watching...something bad is always coming. ;)

No kidding the whole premise of the show! ;)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Cas not being able to heal the bank guard at all. No grace light nothing.

While I don`t rule out something hinky with Cas - though I do believe it is actually Cas, maybe with a "passenger" but also himself - I believe that was a bit of a clumsy moment, done for dramatics.

It was all in the vein of:

Jack: "Cas heal him" 

Cas:  "I can`t"

Jack:   "Why not?"

Sam, dramatically:  "Because he is dead."

Basically a "dun dun dun, angels can`t heal the dead". To drive home to Jack how he just got someone killed, no do-overs.  ,  

Quote

Plus the foreshadowing with Buddy wearing Dean's face and a ghoul wearing Dave's face, I just think that's going to come into play in a much more painful way for Dean and Sam down the road, either with Cas, Jack, Mary maybe being possessed by Lucifer. Maybe Dean will end up being the thing that looks like another thing. I just think something bad is coming.

Again, I`m not discounting that something bad is coming but I don`t believe the details in the episodes are really connected or foreshadowing or anything. If that was back in Buffy/Angel days, under one creative hand who loved to drop hints, I was totally like "I`m side.eyeing you so hard, random grave inscription" but on this show, the writers pretty much do in their respective episodes whatever they want. There are never little clues that interconnect like that. Even if some form of shapeshifting appeared in 15 episodes in a row, it would probably mean nothing. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

For the most part, I loved Dean in the episode - which I never expected to be typing after a Perez episode - but on the whole there was a little too much wtf-ery to call it a good one. Most everything has been mentioned here, so I won't repeat it. Still wtf-ing the Dean snoring thing, and he wasn't drunk this time. And Spawn knocking them all down at the end was beyond soapy and stupid. I can't/don't compare Dean inexplicably disappearing for all the action without explanation (American Nightmare) with Perez sending Sam and Cas back to the bunker. At least we knew why/where they were, even if leaving Dean on his own was contrived and dumb. that's Perez sucking up for all the flak he took over AN, in my opinion.

I don't think even fully-powered Cas has ever been able to bring someone back from the dead, has he? Somewhere in the back of my mind I feel like there was even a mention/scene of this at one point, but can't put my finger on it.

I didn't get any 'Brokeback' vibes from it until Misha started with the tweets - and really, dude needs to stop with that, IMO. I wouldn't care, except way too many of his minions take it as gospel and then beat Jensen up over it when he doesn't want to play along. But as for the writing - I don't think there is any way to take the 'Dean's a bear' reference other than wank/pandering from the writer.

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For the most part, I loved Dean in the episode - which I never expected to be typing after a Perez episode - but on the whole there was a little too much wtf-ery to call it a good one. Most everything has been mentioned here, so I won't repeat it. Still wtf-ing the Dean snoring thing, and he wasn't drunk this time. And Spawn knocking them all down at the end was beyond soapy and stupid. I can't/don't compare Dean inexplicably disappearing for all the action without explanation (American Nightmare) with Perez sending Sam and Cas back to the bunker. At least we knew why/where they were, even if leaving Dean on his own was contrived and dumb. that's Perez sucking up for all the flak he took over AN, in my opinion.

I don't think even fully-powered Cas has ever been able to bring someone back from the dead, has he? Somewhere in the back of my mind I feel like there was even a mention/scene of this at one point, but can't put my finger on it.

I didn't get any 'Brokeback' vibes from it until Misha started with the tweets - and really, dude needs to stop with that, IMO. I wouldn't care, except way too many of his minions take it as gospel and then beat Jensen up over it when he doesn't want to play along. But as for the writing - I don't think there is any way to take the 'Dean's a bear' reference other than wank/pandering from the writer.

Didn't Cas do that 

Spoiler

to Bobby in Swan Song?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Diane

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Diane said:

Didn't Cas do that 

  Hide contents

to Bobby in Swan Song?

Yeah, but I don't recall any other instance, and that was newly rebuilt-by-God-himself Cas - I had the impression even he was surprised he could do it. I'm not convinced I'm right either, by any means. I might even be confusing it with something else, I just know I didn't feel surprised that he couldn't resurrect the guard. (I'm assuming the guard was already dead when they reached him, and was beyond healing.

[Diane]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, but I don't recall any other instance, and that was newly rebuilt-by-God-himself Cas - I had the impression even he was surprised he could do it. I'm not convinced I'm right either, by any means. I might even be confusing it with something else, I just know I didn't feel surprised that he couldn't resurrect the guard. (I'm assuming the guard was already dead when they reached him, and was beyond healing.

See I don't remember him being surprised, he just walked over and did it.  Maybe someone else can chime in. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Diane said:

See I don't remember him being surprised, he just walked over and did it.  Maybe someone else can chime in. 

No, I mean he said something to Dean like he was new and improved. Even Dean asked if Cas was 'God'. ETA: although as @catrox14  pointed out to me last night, Gadreel was able to resurrect Charlie and human-Cas, so I don't know.

Edited November 17, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Diane said:

See I don't remember him being surprised, he just walked over and did it.  Maybe someone else can chime in. 

I don't recall him being surprised either. Maybe Bobby wasn't dead, dead, just mostly dead whereas this guy was dead on impact, perhaps...I dunno.

[sarthaz]

Really enjoyed having the fun back for a bit. Was getting really tired of Grumpy Old Dean. Anything where Dean can embrace childlike enthusiasm is fine by me, even if a lot of the episode was poorly written.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe Bobby wasn't dead, dead, just mostly dead whereas this guy was dead on impact, perhaps...I dunno.

I think, as usual, the consistence fairy has been left limp and beaten in a back alley. 

But when the angels bodily brought back Dean and later Adam, it seemed to be a big deal, beyond just tapping someone on the forehead.   

[Wayward Son]

LOL maybe Cas and Charlie fought against their reapers allowing Ezekiel the time needed to heal them before they moved on while this guy said yes within seconds and that’s why it was too late to resurrect him. 

 

#randomheadcanontoexplaininconsistency 

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No, I mean he said something to Dean like he was new and improved. Even Dean asked if Cas was 'God'. ETA: although as @catrox14  pointed out to me last night, Gadreel was able to resurrect Charlie and human-Cas, so I don't know.

Yeah I think Cas had more power when he came back in s5, but the Gadreel thing bugs me, which just lends credence to my theory that Gadreel was healthier than he led Dean to believe. Or that maybe Cas was so newly dead he could bring him back. Like he wasn't really most sincerely dead but mostly dead? LOL

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

LOL maybe Cas and Charlie fought against their reapers allowing Ezekiel the time needed to heal them before they moved on while this guy said yes within seconds and that’s why it was too late to resurrect him. 

 

#randomheadcanontoexplaininconsistency 

This sounds as reasonable as any explanation yet.

[LDan]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I think Cas had more power when he came back in s5, but the Gadreel thing bugs me, which just lends credence to my theory that Gadreel was healthier than he led Dean to believe. Or that maybe Cas was so newly dead he could bring him back. Like he wasn't really most sincerely dead but mostly dead? LOL

This sounds as reasonable as any explanation yet.

 It is like what a previous post said,  a lame attempt in the writing just to have Jack disappear for awhile.   Lucifer killed Bobby after killing Castiel.   God rebuilt Cas and promoted him to Seraphim. He was able to heal Dean and resurrect Bobby.  He should of had the Guard 'up and running' in a second or two.    Also, that power Jack used on the ghoul, previously he has to have been very angry to do that, and here he does it at will, without anger. 

[Wayward Son]

I know God resurrected Cas as a seraphim post Swan Song, but isn’t he the equivalent of a regular angel now or at least a lot weaker than then. It’s said in s10 that while Cas got his grace back in The Book of the Damned he did not get it all back. Some of it was used in the spell to throw the angels out of heaven.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, LDan said:

 It is like what a previous post said,  a lame attempt in the writing just to have Jack disappear for awhile.   Lucifer killed Bobby after killing Castiel.   God rebuilt Cas and promoted him to Seraphim. He was able to heal Dean and resurrect Bobby.  He should of had the Guard 'up and running' in a second or two.    Also, that power Jack used on the ghoul, previously he has to have been very angry to do that, and here he does it at will, without anger. 

Cas has since lost his grace and didn't get all of it back from Metatron IIRC. I'm okay with with him not being able to resurrect someone who is fully dead. And now since he was fully dead enough to go to the Empty then he might have even further depleted grace if maybe NONE at all.

We'll see if he can heal the boys scrapes and cuts. I suspect his ability to heal Dean's mangled leg was because of the glo up from Jack in 12.23

[MysteryGuest]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't really care about how powerful Cass is, but I was hoping he'd have more of that warrior mentality he once had. I'd actually like to see Cass without powers, but be powerful none-the-less, if you know what I mean.

I didn't mean to imply that I wanted him to be fully powered up, necessarily.  I'm just getting tired of him wearing the same sad face all the time.  When we first met Cas, he wore more of a bemused expression most of the time.  Now Cas just looks like he needs a good dose of antidepressants.  I just want him to have more fight in him, and to stop being so down in the mouth.

[Wynne88]

I was really against the whole idea of Jack, but the actor did such a good job, I ended up enjoying watching his encounters with the world and his simple pride when he managed to do something like levitate the pencil.  Now I'm guessing there will be nothing but angst after what happened in this episode.  I'm not looking forward to it.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm going to watch it again, without commercials, and we'll see if that helps at all.  I'm not terribly optimistic.  

As a Dean fan, I'm certainly not unhappy that Dean played a prominent role in the episode, but when you have 4 cast members with pretty much equal time, is it really so difficult to give them all decent dialogue and something meaningful to do?  Why can they only focus on one character at a time?  

I know not all episodes are going to be gems, and while this one seems to be a bit of a stinker, at least it wasn't completely offensive.  So there's that silver lining!

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to watch it again, without commercials, and we'll see if that helps at all.  I'm not terribly optimistic.  

As a Dean fan, I'm certainly not unhappy that Dean played a prominent role in the episode, but when you have 4 cast members with pretty much equal time, is it really so difficult to give them all decent dialogue and something meaningful to do?  Why can they only focus on one character at a time?  

I know not all episodes are going to be gems, and while this one seems to be a bit of a stinker, at least it wasn't completely offensive.  So there's that silver lining!

Honestly, Dean bias aside, I think Perez is just not a good writer. Entertainment wise, this was his best episode (for me), but that bar is so low, that's  barely a compliment. 

[MysteryGuest]

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Honestly, Dean bias aside, I think Perez is just not a good writer. Entertainment wise, this was his best episode (for me), but that bar is so low, that's  barely a compliment. 

Yeah, I just watched it again, and while the episodes are always vastly improved with no commercials, this one still is my least favorite of the season so far.  And it's too bad, because it had the potential to be interesting, but it was just very poorly written and directed.  There's a good way to mix humor and drama and then a sloppy way, and this one was an example of the latter.  I'm not sure the writer knew which way he wanted to go, and ended up not really succeeding at either.  

For Cas' big comeback episode, it really fell flat.  Even the scenes between Cas and Jack didn't generate much interest on my part.  The dialogue could have been written by a 10 year old.  Oh well, on to next week's episode... 

[catrox14]

[Boopsahoy]

I'm nervous about Cas. What's with his tie being striped in the empty and solid blue on earth??????

[Boopsahoy]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was wondering if that was an adlib? :-)

[catrox14]

More Dean being a goofball in this episode. I didn't notice it in the episode and I'm sad that I missed it. 

Dork

[takalotti]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

More Dean being a goofball in this episode. I didn't notice it in the episode and I'm sad that I missed it. 

Dork

 

Haha! I saw him jab his finger out, but thought he was just pointing at another picture. Like, "Oh, and that guy!"

Thanks for pointing this out!

Edited November 18, 2017 by takalotti

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, takalotti said:

 

Haha! I saw him jab his finger out, but thought he was just pointing at another picture. Like, "Oh, and that guy!"

Thanks for pointing this out!

That's what I thought as well!

I know Tumblr gets a bad rap but I love it for things like this. Sure they take stuff out of context a lot for their own reasons but the giffage they post is absolutely appreciated. LOL

I think it's hilarious how he jumped back. Like did he think it was going to bite him? LOL

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's hilarious how he jumped back. Like did he think it was going to bite him? LOL

You make it sound as if that couldn't happen.  Let's remember what show we're watching.

[Hanahope]

So fun seeing Dean play cowboy again.  It was nice that Jack and Cas got to spend time together, especially while Sam and Dean sleep.  

Of course they had to come up with a reason for Jack to leave them, so he can get into even more trouble next week.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Where did Jack go, anyway? Was that explained anywhere along the line?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Where did Jack go, anyway? Was that explained anywhere along the line?

Nope.

[Jynnan tonnix]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Nope.

Haha! Thanks. That was nice and succinct! At least I don't have to keep feeling as though I missed something!