S04.E08: Live. Live. Live.

[shksabelle]

Of course writing and direction factor in, but watching Viola Davis vs. Kerry Washington (especially this season) is like watching a Julliard master class vs. a high school drama club. 

[jhlipton]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:02 PM, tennisgurl said:

Nothing like being accidentally punched in the stomach and giving birth and possibly losing the baby on an old elevator to get some sympathy back. 

Not from me.  The baby didn't deserve it, but she sure did!

On 11/16/2017 at 9:16 PM, HunterHunted said:

Only people who thought Laurel's dumb plan was dumb and dangerous deserve a redemption arc. Frank thought it was stupid, but fell in line with the quickness. Asher at least was pissed for a couple of days.

I would have loved it when Connor refused to have anything to do with their stooopid plan that Asher would say "I told you so!  C-Man, I tried to tell them... Let's get out of here and grab a beer.  Michaela, are you coming with us or are you too anchored to Laurel's poison?"

On 11/17/2017 at 9:37 AM, HunterHunted said:

What do these assholes need a damn gun for?

The one time someone was shot (Annalise), they didn't die!  These clowns are safer around a gun than anything else!

On 11/18/2017 at 2:40 AM, apn85 said:

Hell, he's a baby! How hard is it to just keep up with him?? 

He won't get far on foot!

[possibilities]

It's old story and not really that important anymore, but fwiw, we did see that Wes was making a written statement. He was seen reviewing it before signing, and making corrections, telling them "this is inaccurate" and fixing the details, right before he left after getting Annalise's call to go to her house. So, in theory, the show could let that draft-nearly-finalized document surface, but it's not like I expect they will.

[Milaxx]

Wes edited it but never signed it. I suppose they could potentially use the draft version, but AK and anyone else could say he obviously changed his mind since he snuck out of the police department without seeing the finished draft or signing it. I could even see AK arguing that he only went in to stall for time and that's why he left before it was completed or signed. Maybe someone with more legal knowledge could chime in on how much weight and unsigned & incomplete statement would actually carry.  

Edited November 20, 2017 by Milaxx

[lardneau]

Is there not a single security camera in this prestigious law firm that spends millions to secure files in this security valve?

[Natalie25]

I find it hard to believe that a firm as supposedly elite as Caplan & Gold doesn't have security cameras. If they're so concerned with their clients' security that they split files over servers and only give access to 3 people? Then the minute they find out Teagan's card was the one that gained access, they're going to pull security tapes. At the very least, the server room and hallway outside it would be monitored, but in real life every floor would have multiple security cameras. They'd have been found out as soon as the files were discovered stolen, and there wouldn't really be a mystery as to who killed Simon...cops would just pull tapes. So...either Laurel was dumb enough not to think of security cameras, or we're supposed to believe that C&G doesn't have them.

That was the only thing that really bothered me...the episode itself was pretty entertaining.

[pennben]

14 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Wes edited it but never signed it. I suppose they could potentially use the draft version, but AK and anyone else could say he obviously changed his mind since he snuck out of the police department without seeing the finished draft or signing it. I could even see AK arguing that he only went in to stall for time and that's why he left before it was completed or signed. Maybe someone with more legal knowledge could chime in on how much weight and unsigned & incomplete statement would actually carry.  

They likely could never use it court, but it would be a hell of a good road map as to where to direct their investigatory resources. 

[wanderingstar]

Quote

I also don't know if he ever intended to go through with the plea deal.

Me neither. I always thought he'd agreed to the plea to buy time and go hash out a workaround with Annalise.

[Milaxx]

23 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Me neither. I always thought he'd agreed to the plea to buy time and go hash out a workaround with Annalise.

I got the impression that K4 & AK assumed this as well. That's why it was so difficult for themto put the blame on Wes in order to get Connor free.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Milaxx

[apn85]

On 11/19/2017 at 6:23 PM, helenamonster said:

Oh, except...Frank has been responsible for the death/near death of every fetus on this show. Just wanna throw that out there.

This is another reason why I just keep having this underlying feeling that Nowalk brought this whole paternity thing up again to in the end make Frank the Father. He keeps talking "Laurel and Frank" in his interviews as a unit and if that baby belongs to Wes and Laurel has some huge animosity against him for what was honestly an accident (I mean at this point find another scapegoat, but that's just me.....) ,it's going to be hard to get rid of him once and for all. No matter anyone's opinion of him, Frank wouldn't walk out on his kid. If it's his, she's stuck with him in some capacity. And hell, let's face it, with his Mom off acting like a nut most of the time, the little guy will need Frank. I am 100% prepared to be completely wrong, but I just don't know why we had to go this route only to find out something we were told last season and that added absolutely nothing to the plot. If he's Wes's baby then the only people who will ever know about that night last season or the paternity test are Laurel and Frank. Makes no sense, but what else is new? 

 

On 11/18/2017 at 9:10 AM, Milaxx said:

I kind of imagine(hope) that's how they'll  deal with the whole baby situation.  Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby and uses him as a threat to keep Laurel in line. I'm not really interested in an ongoing baby presence on the show.  A missing baby keeps all the storytelling centered on Laurel.  Another dead baby just adds to the sadness of Bonnie & Annalise.  Although, it could reconcile Annalise & Laurel since they will both have lost their child at the hands of a bad person. I dunno, I'll pose that question in the speculation thread.

I am honestly shocked the baby ever saw the light of day. I keep saying this show is NO place for a baby (and I stand by that) but every exit I think they are going to take with the baby SL Nowalk doesn't take. Instead, he forges ahead with this baby actually surviving and being a presence. I thought miscarriage, I thought at the start of the elevator debacle that we were watching how the baby died (abruption and unable to be delivered in time), when he popped out I thought well there is no way Annalise will save him and then he cried. So I give up. I literally give up. Will head to see your idea in the speculation thread next........

[sweetandsour]

On 11/20/2017 at 7:36 PM, Natalie25 said:

I find it hard to believe that a firm as supposedly elite as Caplan & Gold doesn't have security cameras. If they're so concerned with their clients' security that they split files over servers and only give access to 3 people? Then the minute they find out Teagan's card was the one that gained access, they're going to pull security tapes. At the very least, the server room and hallway outside it would be monitored, but in real life every floor would have multiple security cameras. They'd have been found out as soon as the files were discovered stolen, and there wouldn't really be a mystery as to who killed Simon...cops would just pull tapes. So...either Laurel was dumb enough not to think of security cameras, or we're supposed to believe that C&G doesn't have them.

That was the only thing that really bothered me...the episode itself was pretty entertaining.

Agreed, and I deleted the episode from the dvr already, but were Oliver and Laurel wearing gloves when they were touching the laptop and hardware inside the server room? If not, their prints are all over them, and not in a way even Oliver can explain. He works in IT, but why would his be the freshest prints on the laptop keys? Obviously in case of a physical data breach, C&G would investigate the scene of the crime. Maybe they could explain it away by saying they wiped everything they touched down, but I doubt it.

And even if C&G doesn't have cameras installed within the office, there's no way the lobby of a building that would house C&G doesn't have operational security cameras. After what happened with Simon, police will definitely pull that tape and identify anyone suspicious, i.e. doesn't work for C&G, wasn't on the C&G guest list, or doesn't work for another business in the building. Did Laurel sneak in through the chimney? Don't think so. But I'm sure that'll be ignored, too.

I don't mean to be hard on the show because all shows have holes, but when they get so convoluted, it's so hard not to see the things that don't add up.

[darkestboy]

That was a great mid season finale, even if there are still flashforwards bits we're yet to see.

I'm guessing that as well as the baby being alive, there's a chance that Simon might not have perished as well, though I can't believe he accidentally shot himself. I did feel a bit bad for him here, especially when the gang planned to use his feelings for Oliver against him.

Michaela was calm enough under pressure but Connor was savvy enough to know the plan was going to go wrong, so I liked him telling Annalise about it.

Asher got himself arrested, didn't he? 

The scene with Annalise and Laurel at the elevator was one of the hardest scenes to actually watch. Very intense stuff.

Did not like Frank strangling Connor or Bonnie/Nate feeling sorry for themselves. 

Not sure why Annalise wouldn't want to distance herself from Isaac considering that he too seems fixated on here.

Dominic overhearing Connor's phone conversation can't be good for Laurel and the gang when the show comes back, 9/10

[Grace19]

Under whelming episode.

Starting to like Connor again and even Oliver who I hated.

Michaels is Annalise junior,

poor asher, he never wanted any part in this.

Still mad at Laurel for starting all this, but I felt for her when she was bleeding.

Poor Annalise can't catch a break, *smh*

Don't care about Nate

I still like watching bonnie and Frank do crazy stuffs, they entertain me with their psychotic behavior.

I wander how they will get out of this one.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

poor asher, he never wanted any part in this.

Poor Asher my ass, he could have sat it out if he wanted to. Well I do feel for him and will as long as he doesn't blame the woman he's supposed to love for any of it.  Besides, all they were asking him for, was to not rat them out. Michaela told his ass that she was trying to protect him, but he had to know and had to be a part of it, that's on him.  No one was forcing him to play an active part in their plan. Connor didn't either, the same was requested of him, to just keep his mouth shut. As a matter a fact, they hesitated when he said he wanted to be Oliver's plus one. So none of those lunatics with Laurel being to the number one nut job, twisted Asher nor Connor's arm to put themselves in jeopardy, both men made that choice all on their own knowing that the plan was stupid. So they can both look in the mirror and blame only themselves, each one of them can for that matter. I hate Laurel, but they can't even blame her. They did not have to go along with her plan. Get over it PN, Laurel does not come off as someone who has this art of manipulation or some aura that people can't say no to her, bye with all that *eye roll*.

At any rate, my one and only concern is that he not be written to blame Michaela, I'm already sensitive to PN's writing for the black girl on this canvas who's not Viola who he has a special thing for. He better not even try it, but I'm sure he will, because hey, no one can blame the damsel in distress who thought up this scheme because she almost nearly bled to death delivering that baby, *eye roll,* and her baby may be missing, so let's all blame Michaela, wait for it, I'm pretty sure it's coming. 

Quote

Michaels is Annalise junior,

And I hope this shit stops and soon, Michaela is awesome just the way she is, I wish she got that. She can take all the knowledge of law and some of life's lessons from these women of color, but please girl, you rocked before the Anna's and Teagan's came into your life. Stop trying to be like them, covering up murders may come in handy but having that skill is not something you necessarily aspire to have or nor is it something to be proud of. Now using the law to vigorously defend your client in an ethical way and win cases even though they may be guilty, now that is something you want to aspire to if you're going to be kick ass lawyer, which is the part of Anna that I can see admiring. But the illegal shit, no, no Peter, no. I don't want that for Michaela, I don't want to see her running some law class at the end of this series like Anna, just stop it.  I just don't get it, I look at Anna and I look at Michaela and I'm just not more impressed with one over the other, sorry, I'm not. Michaela is a character that can stand on her own, and I'm not sure PN realizes this at all. This is all part of diversity, why is the Dr. thinking Mickey looks like Anna from the back? Stop it, all black women of a certain hue with a weave or straightened hair don't all look alike. Michaela is several feet shorter than Anna and they actually aren't the same complexion. Why is it that Michaela has to want to turn into a mini Anna? Yeah, I get that she does because she's always been in search of a maternal, black female mother figure, but the story of growth should be her eventually realizing that, that is not what she wants. Instead of Nowalk trying to make the two black women on the canvas be alike, that's not diversity. I want them to be different, I see them as being very different quite frankly.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

18 hours ago, apn85 said:

This is another reason why I just keep having this underlying feeling that Nowalk brought this whole paternity thing up again to in the end make Frank the Father. He keeps talking "Laurel and Frank" in his interviews as a unit and if that baby belongs to Wes and Laurel has some huge animosity against him for what was honestly an accident (I mean at this point find another scapegoat, but that's just me.....) ,it's going to be hard to get rid of him once and for all. No matter anyone's opinion of him, Frank wouldn't walk out on his kid. If it's his, she's stuck with him in some capacity. And hell, let's face it, with his Mom off acting like a nut most of the time, the little guy will need Frank. I am 100% prepared to be completely wrong, but I just don't know why we had to go this route only to find out something we were told last season and that added absolutely nothing to the plot. If he's Wes's baby then the only people who will ever know about that night last season or the paternity test are Laurel and Frank. Makes no sense, but what else is new? 

 

I am honestly shocked the baby ever saw the light of day. I keep saying this show is NO place for a baby (and I stand by that) but every exit I think they are going to take with the baby SL Nowalk doesn't take. Instead, he forges ahead with this baby actually surviving and being a presence. I thought miscarriage, I thought at the start of the elevator debacle that we were watching how the baby died (abruption and unable to be delivered in time), when he popped out I thought well there is no way Annalise will save him and then he cried. So I give up. I literally give up. Will head to see your idea in the speculation thread next........

ITA that this show doesn't need a baby. I still think Laurel will continue to manipulate Frank  and even if the paternity test proves the child is his, she will say it's Wes. Otherwise she has talked all of them into this stupid plan for nothing.

16 hours ago, sweetandsour said:

Agreed, and I deleted the episode from the dvr already, but were Oliver and Laurel wearing gloves when they were touching the laptop and hardware inside the server room? If not, their prints are all over them, and not in a way even Oliver can explain. He works in IT, but why would his be the freshest prints on the laptop keys? Obviously in case of a physical data breach, C&G would investigate the scene of the crime. Maybe they could explain it away by saying they wiped everything they touched down, but I doubt it.

And even if C&G doesn't have cameras installed within the office, there's no way the lobby of a building that would house C&G doesn't have operational security cameras. After what happened with Simon, police will definitely pull that tape and identify anyone suspicious, i.e. doesn't work for C&G, wasn't on the C&G guest list, or doesn't work for another business in the building. Did Laurel sneak in through the chimney? Don't think so. But I'm sure that'll be ignored, too.

I don't mean to be hard on the show because all shows have holes, but when they get so convoluted, it's so hard not to see the things that don't add up.

I'll rewatch in a minute, but I'm fairly certain they were not wearing gloves. Good point about the lack of security cameras. At a bare minimum the front desk would have them.

9 hours ago, darkestboy said:

.....

Dominic overhearing Connor's phone conversation can't be good for Laurel and the gang when the show comes back, 9/10

It's more of an immediate danger to Connor. Dominic saw him running from AK house the night of the first. This is the second time he's been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unless Dominic gets a text to go the AK's & retrieve Laurel and the baby, Connor is in danger.

9 hours ago, Grace19 said:

....

Michaels is Annalise junior,

...

I read a few blogs that talk about how costuming works to reinforce a storyline. I think the show has been subliminally  mirroring Micheala & Annalise. Annalise's weave this season is straighter and than we've previously seen. In the episode "was she ever good at her job?"  Annalise also wears a light blue shealth dress similar to the dress Micheala wore to the party. IIRC she disappears for a bit to go to therapy. I'll have to rewatch but I think she may be wearing that light blue dress.  Now I don't think Annalise and Micheal look even slightly alike, but if Isaac is heading toward maternity to check on Laurel's premature infant, turns the corner and see some who vaguely resembles AK, I could understand him confusing the 2.  Especially if he has that person on their mind. Remember Isaac saw Micheal from a distance & from the back. When he called out, Micheala turned and he realized the mistake.

[apn85]

4 hours ago, Milaxx said:

ITA that this show doesn't need a baby. I still think Laurel will continue to manipulate Frank  and even if the paternity test proves the child is his, she will say it's Wes. Otherwise she has talked all of them into this stupid plan for nothing.

At this point, NOTHING would shock me. Not a single thing, lol. 

I was honestly (and still am if I am being truthful) hoping it would come out and she'd have to deal with some of the shit she has done. I like Laurel, she's always been my favorite, but I'm not blind nor immune to her crap. This season and last has been hard as a fan of hers at times.  Just like what happened to her and the baby....she can blame it on Frank or his temper or whatever she wants to blame it on. However, what happened to her & her baby ultimately happened because she wouldn't listen to anyone when they told her to STOP and leave well enough alone. She was never going to outsmart her Father. He didn't just start his schemes yesterday....he's been doing this for YEARS and is damn good at it. Guarantee you he's known what she's been up to this entire time. THAT is why she & the baby ended up in the mess they did. Not because Frank's arm hit her stomach. That was simply a means to an end. Look at the big picture for once. I have no faith that she will and honestly, even if it is revealed to everyone that the baby is Frank's, the others (for the most part - I think Connor has and will keep her number) will probably excuse her because of what happened to her. What should happen is they should all walk up in that hospital room and list off the reasons they are done and do just that. Michaela genuinely has a bright future and has risked EVERYTHING for this shit. Connor has been lied to and made to feel guilty where Wes was concerned this whole time and worried about Laurel's feelings and tried to apologize to her. Oliver risked his job. Asher is sitting in jail. Frank is honestly trying to turn his mess of a life around and she couldn't just leave him be. She's berated Annalise for no good reason and then Annalise is who saved her ass and her baby's tiny ass. For ONCE I wish she'd acknowledge that something just *might* be her fault. I fear Hell will freeze over first.

Neverending cycle.........

[jhlipton]

21 minutes ago, apn85 said:

THAT is why she & the baby ended up in the mess they did. Not because Frank's arm hit her stomach. That was simply a means to an end.

That and she decided to come between two men fighting, instead of having someone else stop Frank.  Dumb-ass Laurel put her baby in danger, but of course will blame someone else.

[apn85]

1 minute ago, jhlipton said:

That and she decided to come between two men fighting, instead of having someone else stop Frank.  Dumb-ass Laurel put her baby in danger, but of course will blame someone else.

Yes, that too! And pulled his arm back toward herself. Maybe I am being nit-picky here, but she did. She jerked his arm back and into herself. I'm sure we could keep going, LOL! :P 

[possibilities]

Frank was strangling Connor. I don't think it was "two men fighting"-- I can't blame Laurel for stepping in when no one else did. We know Frank has killed with his bare hands before. But all the rest of the stuff-- yes, I blame Laurel for her role.

I wonder if the call Laurel received was from her father, summoning her to C&G. And she took the opportunity to be there, because she didn't trust the rest of the gang to execute the plan anyway. If so, that gives her a plausible reason to be seen entering the building.

The set up is actually pretty different than previous, because now we have the K4 + Oliver + Frank and Annalise going up against a team that's in every way their equal in terms of power and manipulative prowess-- and possibly moreso, and definitely with more money at the moment. I think what happens next all hinges on whether Tegan and Laurel's father decide to be on their side or against them. Whether Simon lives or dies, they can crush him, if they choose to do so. Or, they can try to get him on their side-- if they want to, they can use their leverage to save him, or to destroy him (if he lives).

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

Frank was strangling Connor. I don't think it was "two men fighting"-- I can't blame Laurel for stepping in when no one else did. We know Frank has killed with his bare hands before. But all the rest of the stuff-- yes, I blame Laurel for her role.

I'll still blame her even if it's not her fault.  Seems only fair considering what an ass she is.

[starri]

Life got in the way of me watching the episode until now, so most of what I wanted to say has already been said, however:

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I got close to tears as Annalise was performing CPR--poorly, she was performing it poorly--on the baby.  Trying to save her baby?  Trying to save the last bit of Wes?  Bit of both?  If you were to see the scene on paper, I bet it would seem ridiculous, but Viola just grabbed the material and ran with it.  I even had feelings for Laurel, because her starting to bleed out, trapped and alone, was brutal.

I think in a certain respect, the K4 are different parts of Annalise's personality.  Michaela is her drive and ambition, Laurel is her guile, Connor is her genuine empathy, and Asher is the sad person who does self destructive things to not show it.  I think that's what makes Connor a fit with her new role as Crusader.

I really like that they've made Teagan multi-dimensional, and not just an evil(er) version of Annalise.  She's clearly got maternal/big sister feelings toward Michaela, and in a good way.

[Annber03]

7 minutes ago, starri said:

I think in a certain respect, the K4 are different parts of Annalise's personality.  Michaela is her drive and ambition, Laurel is her guile, Connor is her genuine empathy, and Asher is the sad person who does self destructive things to not show it.  I think that's what makes Connor a fit with her new role as Crusader.

I really like this observation :). Never thought of it that way before, but it makes perfect sense.

Quote

I really like that they've made Teagan multi-dimensional, and not just an evil(er) version of Annalise.  She's clearly got maternal/big sister feelings toward Michaela, and in a good way.

Also agreed on this. Their scenes together have been so good. 

[Milaxx]

16 hours ago, starri said:

I think in a certain respect, the K4 are different parts of Annalise's personality.  Michaela is her drive and ambition, Laurel is her guile, Connor is her genuine empathy, and Asher is the sad person who does self destructive things to not show it.  I think that's what makes Connor a fit with her new role as Crusader.

Very good point and I completely agree. I think part of what draws her to these people and makes her care about them even when it's a physical & mental drain on  her is the way she identifies with them. This even extends to Bonnie. As a survivor of childhood rape, Annalise clearly identified with Bonnie which is what made her take her in and help her become a lawyer.

[pookymama]

The server room at my job requires a badge,  a PIN code and a biometric palm scan. Just sayin’.

[Milaxx]

On 1/14/2018 at 9:28 PM, iheartET said:

 

4) I thought Laurel started to bleed after being stressed out about Simon being shot and the plan failing.

5) Regarding the Simon situation, it looked like the gun went off by accident when Michaela was trying to get it away from him. Does anyone think it looked like he shot himself ?

 

Laurel had an abruption from the blow to the stomach when Frank & Connor were fighting.

Yes & No. Simon tripped over the chair and the gun went off causing him to shoot himself in the head. Michaela was reaching for him, but never touched him. Simon squeezed the trigger reaching back when he tripped.

[secnarf]

55 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Laurel had an abruption from the blow to the stomach when Frank & Connor were fighting.

If that's the case, this child has been without oxygen so long that you might as well pull the plug now. Annalise didn't do him any favours when she miraculously resuscitated him.

[Milaxx]

Yeah but they play fast and loss with the science on this show.

[Chas411]

Bonnie is the most pathetic human ever. 

Laurel is the most selfish human ever. 

All the rest bar Annalise are the dumbest humans ever.