S07.E07: Eloise Gardner

[Rumsy4]

Quote

Gothel comes from a long line of temptress villains who glamour and seduce.

The fact they they only call it seduction and then lump it among other "terrible things" the villains have committed shows the writers will never acknowledge male rape. 

[Camera One]

Someone tweeted the writer (Brigitte Hales) why Gothel even had to glamor herself as a younger woman/Rapunzel, which is a good point.  Whook would not have known what Rapunzel looked like.  Gothel was older but it wasn't like she was hideous or something... she could have seduced Whook in her existing form.  I'm seriously surprised that Disney/ABC let A&E throw yet another Disney character under the bus like that in their "cul de sac" or maybe more appropriately, their "cul de sick".

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's an old Irish folk song, which makes me wonder if the specific song was written into the script or if they just told Colin to sing something old enough to be in public domain.

I think the Writer tweeted that Colin chose the song himself... I skimmed the tweets really quickly, though, so I could be wrong.

Quote

So, does that mean that Wish Cora is in the Wishverse?

We haven't dealt with Cora enough yet, so of course she's still alive somewhere.  This allows them to bring back ALL their old favorites if they got to Season 10, which the delusional duo would seriously have considered when they decided to do this retread/requel last year.

Quote

Regina coerced him into going to Wonderland to kill Cora, then Cora flipped him by telling him about the curse, and they faked her death. That happened right before the curse. So, does that mean that Wish Cora is in the Wishverse? When did the Charmings strip Wish Regina of her powers? I assume after she threatened them with the curse, so they still had her and let her go.

Based on the Wish EQ that we saw, there is actually a lot in this Wish Realm which were different.  This Wish EQ seemed pretty scared, had zero intensity and didn't even seem that angry anymore.  There is no way Original Recipe Evil Queen would have acted like that.  In many ways, Wish EQ was played for laughs much as Wish Snowing and Wish Emma were.  I mean, that's all nice and good, but it really took me out of the scene when we're supposed to be taking this Wish Realm seriously.  

I thought it was a bit of a stretch that Hook could actually climb that tower.  The bottom part, yes, but the completely vertical part?

Edited November 18, 2017 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

Seriously, what is up with this show and its obsession with rape, and not really seeming to realize what they've done? Yeah Gothel is supposed to be evil (and she seems like a pretty compelling villain), but its just so creepy that they just KEEP doing these dubious consent stories, and then just glossing over it to get to the next plot point. Gothel is "seductive"? It isn't seduction if they dont know what they're consenting to damn it! Why is this so hard for A&E to understand?!?! If Gothel had just slept with him to have a kid, that would certainly be creepy and evil, but not so blatenly rapey as this was. I just cant believe this show, that is supposedly family friendly, is basically the most rape filled show on television! I know that shows like Game of Thrones and Outlander get flack for relying too much on rape for drama (you can make arguments for either case), but at least those shows usually show rape as something horrifying with long term consequences, and normally at least try to show empathy for survivors. This show keeps either writing rapes by accident, or just glossing it over. 

That being said, I did enjoy a lot of this episode, mainly because we got lots of Hook/Rogers, and Colin can always put in a good performance when he gets something decent to work with. It was clear he was having fun doing swashbuckling adventures again, and some more meaty emotional stuff. We even get some backstory on him and his mom! Poor Hook and Mama Hook and her sad Irish songs. I also like that we see that even without meeting Emma, Hook would have ended up on the side of the light eventually anyway, even if he fell apart later due to tragedy. He really is a good person at his core, he had just become bitter with anger and sadness, and later revenge and grief. Just when he is with Emma, she can help him deal with his issues easier. 

Murderella and Henry were alright, even if they still have negative chemistry. At least they seemed to like each other this week. This week, it really hit me how little we really know about Lucy. In season 1, Henry did want to break the curse, but he also wanted to escape Regina, and connect with his bio mom, and he had more to him than yelling "the curse will be broken because LOVE!" over and over again. Lucy is really more of a plot device than an actual person. Henry could get annoying, but at least he was a character with agency and personality. Lucy doesn't really have much of either. 

It was nice seeing Smee (Captain Smee!) and the original EQ again. This seemed more like the EQ from the first season, who was campy, but also an actual threat. Later on, Lana played her way too over the top. 

Honestly, I knew that Hook/Rogers was Tillys daughter the second he played the"I`m not angry, I`m just disappointed" card, and Tilly just crumbled. Classic parent move right there. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

That being said, I did enjoy a lot of this episode, mainly because we got lots of Hook/Rogers, and Colin can always put in a good performance when he gets something decent to work with.

He definitely livens up the screen. His storyline with Alice has the most heart and the most potential this season--for me at least. The Henriella romance is paint by the numbers, and quite dull. Lucy is just a plot device, as you said. Roni and Weaver don't have much of anything going on. Gothel seems to be the Big Bad villain connecting them all (except Weaver, maybe).  

[Camera One]

Even though the actress who plays Ivy still has more chemistry with the actor who plays Henry, she's also a murderer in present-day now, since she poisoned that criminal. I'm going to have a much harder time accepting any sort of relationship with Henry, if they try to make us feel sorry for her in an upcoming episode.  I'm pretty sure we're guaranteed to get her sob story.  The Writers probably know she's one of the few new characters who can actually play it effectively.

[Shanna Marie]

Quote

Gothel is a villain. Evil. Bad. She does terrible things, which is what makes her a villain.

I could go with that if we took this episode in a vacuum. They showed that Gothel was a villain, they treated what she did to Hook as evil, and he reacted as a victim would.

The problem is that they've already gone to this well too many times and handled it in such a way that showed they really don't understand the subject and don't get where the line is drawn. These are the people who quite clearly wrote the Huntsman/Graham being raped. There's no way around "have him brought to my bedchamber" when she'd ripped out his heart to force him to comply and he looked horrified. I was never all that impressed by Jamie Dornan's acting, but he did convey pretty well that even though Graham thought he was consenting (since he wasn't aware of being forced), he was full of self-loathing, and he was acting like a rape victim who's analyzing his own behavior and trying to figure out how he brought it on. Then Regina pulled the classic domestic abuser stunt of murdering him when he tried to break up with her. And then the writers and actress talked in interviews about how fun and flirty the relationship was and got all coy about what Regina was making Graham do by saying maybe they were just playing chess.

And then there was Zelena, who went on to get true love and whose lover murdered her victim, and then there was that heartwarming scene of the child of the woman she murdered so she could take her place and rape the child's father saying goodbye and giving her a feather from his father's arrow.

So I'm not inclined to trust them or accept it this time around. I'm not inclined to believe that they really think they're showing villainous behavior or that they'll show any consequences.

I do think it's interesting how Colin played it. All along, I've found that Rogers and WHook look strangely younger than Hook Prime, in spite of being played by the same actor. There's a real vulnerability to them, which could come from this. There was always a lot of pain to Hook Prime, but I'm not sure I'd ever have used the word "vulnerable" to describe him.

[Star Aristille]

I enjoyed this one.  Things are really getting interesting now.  Definitely didn't see it coming that the witch Lady Tremaine and Drizella had locked up was Mother Gothel.  And she's also Alice's mother?  Those were welcome twists.

But yeah.  The rape angle is squicky to me.  They really need to stop that.

[Rumsy4]

20 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I do think it's interesting how Colin played it. All along, I've found that Rogers and WHook look strangely younger than Hook Prime, in spite of being played by the same actor. There's a real vulnerability to them, which could come from this. There was always a lot of pain to Hook Prime, but I'm not sure I'd ever have used the word "vulnerable" to describe him.

I used the exact word to describe him yesterday in the spoiler thread. Colin is really playing it differently, isn't he? He's really talented.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Despite the horrible setup, putting Hook into a situation where he was the only one responsible for his baby was huge enough to explain him putting aside his revenge.  

6 hours ago, Curio said:

Whook said, "abandoning people just isn't my thing." Cool, but what about when he abandoned Liam 2.0 in that terrible out of character flashback in Season 5? Whook also had a change of heart in 7x02 when he couldn't go through with swapping lives with Real Hook because he couldn't separate a father from his child. If that's the case, how do the writers justify the out of character Hook flashbacks where he killed his father and killed Charming's father? Is this season's Whook flashbacks an attempt to course correct their past Hook flashback mistakes? If so, then why must it come at the cost of yet another terrible non-consensual sexual encounter?

That's a really good point and is another example of how their tendency to write for plot results in very inconsistent characterization over time.  It would have been nice if Whook made the decision to be with the baby by referencing some of his regrets in the past like abandoning Liam 2.0 and killing Charming's father, which presumably would be part of Whook's history as well.

What I do appreciate about this episode is they're giving Colin his own storyline and something different from what he played before.  It's surprisingly much meatier than the storylines for Regina or Rumple.

[tennisgurl]

I guess I can’t complain too much about an episode where we get to hear Colin sing a Sea Shanty AND an Irish lullaby. 

[Rumsy4]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What I do appreciate about this episode is they're giving Colin his own storyline and something different from what he played before.  It's surprisingly much meatier than the storylines for Regina or Rumple.

I'm curious if it's becasue of serendipity, or because they actually bothered to come up with something for Colin because of tying a neat bow to Captain Swan. Everything else about this season is merely an imitation of previous seasons and characters. But the writers had to actually think of something new for WHook that wasn't anything centered around romance (at least they know which side of their bread is buttered).

[KAOS Agent]

This is the first episode of this season that I've actually watched and to me it was like I was watching an entirely different show. I wasn't at all invested in anything here, but I did enjoy watching Rogers and Alice's interactions, so they were doing something right with that storyline. It did occur to me that they basically wrapped up Rogers story in Hyperion Heights. He found Eloise Gardner and rescued her. What is his role going forward?

I also thought it was just like this show to have a goal wrapped up and have it mean exactly nothing. Rogers "rescued" Gothel and at the end of the night she's right back where she was found because that's where she needs to be to do whatever she's planning. Nothing Rogers did changes the trajectory of her story. She and Ivy were already working together. All it did was make him feel better. 

[pezgirl7]

I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people, but I have zero issues with Gothel being under a glamour spell when she slept with Whook. She's meant to be a villain, and it's no worse than what other villains, and sometimes heroes, on this show have done;  rip out hearts, murder innocent people, kidnap kids to eat them...

[VoicePlaya]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It isn't seduction if they dont know what they're consenting to damn it! Why is this so hard for A&E to understand?!?!

That's an excellent question. 

I think it's funny that they keep harping on how Gothel is a villain as if this episode didn't make that painfully obvious. But it's not enough. Until they actually admit that it was rape and make Gothel suffer some kind of consequences for that. Stop dancing around the issue and admit it. I'd love to see her ultimately go the way of Pan and Hades - she should end up in the Underworld by the time she's done.

Not that I'll be holding my breath. We all know that they'll never do any of that. Their track record in this area speaks for itself. At least in Whook's case the deception didn't go on for weeks or however long it went on with Robin. Whook got to be angry about it whereas I don't really remember Robin ever being allowed to get angry. Not that that makes it any less disgusting or maddening. Whook is still a rape victim and they'll never admit it. Just like Graham and Robin. Because apparently rape doesn't count if the victim is male. Not according to A&E anyway. Nor does it count if the victim is an underage female as we learned with Emma and Neal. It's not rape if the act is committed by a character that the writers love, right A&E? That's certainly the way it seems. 

It also goes to show that A&E are shockingly tone deaf to what their audience wants. At least about the big things. It's weird because as has been pointed out, they threw in a few things they knew fans would love. Colin singing being the prime example. They can get it right every now and then, even if it's usually something relatively small in the grand scheme of things. And yet they can't, or outright refuse to, understand that using rape as a plot point is not something people want to see. That rape by deception is not seduction. That the refusal to call it rape does not mean that it stops being rape. That the complete lack of consequences for rape on this show is appalling. The rapist will just a pass because they're villains and that's just what villains do.

Except for all the villains they've had who somehow managed not to rape anyone, but whatever. The victims will never get to defeat their rapists because who cares about the victims? Sure, none of them did anything to deserve being raped because absolutely nothing justifies rape, but what does that matter? It's just a plot point, after all, and if A&E have taught us anything it's that rape is okay as long as it advances the plot. Anyone ever watch Whose Line is It Anyway? The show where everything's made up and the points don't matter? This is kind of like that, except everything's plot driven and rape doesn't matter! 

I can't imagine why so many people are so upset about this. I mean, it's not like we live in a time where more and more sexual assault victims are coming forward every single day. It's not like people are especially, and rightfully, sensitive in regards to rape these days and maybe showrunners should show a little more sensitivity than usual. Or you know, any sensitivity whatsoever. It's not like this show has a history of handling this kind of thing horribly. 

Oh wait. 

[oncebluethrone]

33 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people, but I have zero issues with Gothel being under a glamour spell when she slept with Whook. She's meant to be a villain, and it's no worse than what other villains, and sometimes heroes, on this show have done;  rip out hearts, murder innocent people, kidnap kids to eat them...

I agree. I just really hope that Gothel will get what she deserves and the issue isn't ignored.

[Camera One]

It will depend on whether the Writers fall in love with Gothel's character.  Though in the show's seventh season, it's not as likely that they are looking for new cast members anymore, so it decreases the likelihood that she will get a full redemption arc and continue on the show as a protagonist.

[Rumsy4]

Most people don't count Walsh in the line of rapists in the Show, but his relationship with Emma in the missing year is also rape by deception, unless for some reason their relationship was never consummated. We were spared any intimate moments between them, thankfully. At least Emma got to kill him, or poof him out of existence. The writers do seem to have some sick obsession with this trope. 

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It will depend on whether the Writers fall in love with Gothel's character. 

Exactly. We can never be confident that Gothel will ever face justice for her act, because of the Show's history. They could've shown her to be evil by any other way. Example: Rapunzel is real. WHook spends the night. The next morning, Gothel pops in, speeds up the pregnancy, then kills or banishes Rapunzel and wipes her memory, leaving WHook as a sudden single parent. Same result. No distasteful storyline that will never be addressed again.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, pezgirl7 said:

I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people, but I have zero issues with Gothel being under a glamour spell when she slept with Whook. She's meant to be a villain, and it's no worse than what other villains, and sometimes heroes, on this show have done;  rip out hearts, murder innocent people, kidnap kids to eat them...

I think the main issue is that the writers have shown several times in the past that they don't know how to treat this topic with any sensitivity or empathy, so it makes it that much harder for fans to trust them now. (The writers also proved to be callous to fans in the past who questioned them about this topic, something along the lines of, "My five-year-old knows the difference between magic and the real world.") Like @Shanna Marie said, if you watch this episode in a vacuum and didn't know anything about OUAT's history, you'd come away thinking Gothel is a despicable villain who will eventually get her comeuppance. But most of us have seen this entire series and know that there have been numerous occasions where non-consensual sex has been involved, and the supposed "villains" in those scenarios were not treated like true villains, and in fact, several of them were turned into heroes.

In the current social environment right now, this specific story is especially tone-deaf. I believe this episode was written before the Weinstein story ignited a cultural shift in the way many people view this topic, but I doubt this episode would have been written the same way if the Weinstein story dropped before they started brainstorming. Or maybe the writers would have stuck to their original plan because they don't see anything wrong with their decisions, which is a different problem altogether. In a #metoo era where it's crucial to be sensitive about this topic, the writers of this show decided to double down on an already delicate topic they've proven they aren't capable of portraying with the respect it deserves. And if their only reason for telling the story differently this time is to prove they learned from their past mistakes, then I don't know if that's a good enough reason to include it. 

There's a much larger goal towards social progress that is in a precarious balance right now, and since many people in the U.S. (and other places!) still choose to ignore that there's even a problem to solve, it's up to more progressive people—specifically Hollywood writers and the OUAT team—to tackle these issues properly. There's a difference between this topic and other questionable topics on this show like murder and kidnapping because the vast majority of society generally agrees those things are bad. However, it's painfully clear that too many people in society still do not respect the #metoo movement (see Roy Moore), which means there's still a long way to go towards shifting the cultural viewpoint in a positive direction. So it's particularly frustrating to see the people who are supposed to champion social progress and who have the important responsibility of telling stories that impact millions of people get this topic wrong so many times. Perhaps they'll finally treat Gothel like an actual villain who will get proper punishment and they can tell the story right this time, but it's unfortunate that we constantly have to compare this story to similar failed story arcs of previous seasons.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Curio

[MaiLuna]

That tweet about Gothel is awfully similar to the response Adam posted about Regina. 

And now Regina is a hero, so Gothel (just like Zelena and Arthur) will probably get away with rape also. 

 

Quote

I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people, but I have zero issues with Gothel being under a glamour spell when she slept with Whook. She's meant to be a villain, and it's no worse than what other villains, and sometimes heroes, on this show have done;  rip out hearts, murder innocent people, kidnap kids to eat them...

The thing is, those things are acknowledged -- up to some point. The word "rape" has never been used on the show or by one of the writers in those scenarios. 

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, MaiLuna said:

and Arthur

I had completely forgotten him. Even he got a redemption arc in the Underworld episode. But we have no idea how Guin felt when she woke up, or the aftermath. Did she and Lancelot get together? What happened to his kingdom, etc..

5 minutes ago, MaiLuna said:

That tweet about Gothel is awfully similar to the response Adam posted about Regina. 

Sick that Adam still claims people had free will under the Curse. Yeah. No way I'm trusting these losers to address rape properly this time around.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Rumsy4

[pezgirl7]

42 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

They could've shown her to be evil by any other way. Example: Rapunzel is real. WHook spends the night. The next morning, Gothel pops in, speeds up the pregnancy, then kills or banishes Rapunzel and wipes her memory, leaving WHook as a sudden single parent. Same result. No distasteful storyline that will never be addressed again.

Not really the same result, since Alice would have grown up knowing that she had a good mother who loved her. Not one that just used and abandoned her. I think a lot of Alice's issues are due to her mother. Also, I feel like having Whook sleep with the actual Rapunzel and then killing her off shortly after would have totally tarnished the character and her story with Flynn. She's a fan favorite for a lot of people.

[VoicePlaya]

21 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I had completely forgotten him.

It's kind of scary when you really start talking about all the rapists on the show and more names keep coming up. I'd forgotten about what Arthur did to Guinevere and try not to think about Walsh at all. It makes me wonder who else I've forgotten about.

That's not even getting into all the people who slept together under the first curse when no one knew who they were. People who wouldn't have slept together otherwise. Mary Margaret and Whale, David and Katherine, etc. 

[Shanna Marie]

45 minutes ago, Curio said:

Like @Shanna Marie said, if you watch this episode in a vacuum and didn't know anything about OUAT's history, you'd come away thinking Gothel is a despicable villain who will eventually get her comeuppance. But most of us have seen this entire series and know that there have been numerous occasions where non-consensual sex has been involved, and the supposed "villains" in those scenarios were not treated like true villains, and in fact, several of them were turned into heroes.

It's not just that the rapists aren't treated like real villains that makes me roll my eyes at the "Gothel is a villain and evil, so it's okay that we wrote a rape" thing. It's the fact that these writers have done this kind of story over and over again and show no sign of awareness of the issues they're dealing with. They've treated it like some kind of wacky misunderstanding, have been obnoxious to fans who call them out on it, and sometimes flat-out don't seem to remember what they wrote, like the claim that Graham had free will when we saw Regina using his heart to control him. So in this case, even though it actually works, in that it's a villain, was shown to be a terrible thing, and really affected the victim emotionally, to the point it changed the course of his life, I don't trust these writers to have done it "right" on purpose when they've screwed it up so many times before and seem to be entirely unaware of how often they write sexual relationships that involve dubious consent or lack of consent. They don't get credit for this time when they've failed so many times before and seem incapable of learning.

[Camera One]

I thought Weaver and Victoria's attempt to get Whook off the trail of Eloise Gardener was super lame.  There were so many other red herrings they could have dangled.  How was that tattoo even relevant again?  Why would the Curse give him that desperate need to find Mother Gothel anyway?  Wouldn't he desire to find Alice despite the Curse?  

So, this was what Rogers said in Episode 2:

Quote

 

"My first year on the job, I was trying to find a missing girl. Searching for her, I went down the wrong alley and I got shot... and then this woman (Emma) came from nowhere [and helped him]....

... I didn't see her again.  But she gave me a second chance, and I vowed to use it to find that poor little missing girl.  I became desperate to succeed.  So desperate.  That I almost lost myself."

 

Now, Eloise Gardener turned out to be played by an actress who was 34 and Whook based on the actor is 36 years old.

So if Eloise was a "little girl" (let's say 6-10 years old) when he joined the police force, then Rogers must have become a police officer when he was between 7 and 11 years old.

Another age mystery solved!

Edited November 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

59 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

Not really the same result, since Alice would have grown up knowing that she had a good mother who loved her. Not one that just used and abandoned her. I think a lot of Alice's issues are due to her mother. Also, I feel like having Whook sleep with the actual Rapunzel and then killing her off shortly after would have totally tarnished the character and her story with Flynn. She's a fan favorite for a lot of people.

I think it could've been worked around by Gothel wiping Rapunzel's memories of WHook and the child. If, as I suspect, Rapunzel is young Lady Tremaine, that would add another interesting complication to their dynamic. By the time he finds her, she could be married, and have no interest in believing WHook's increasingly desperate pleas, especially after he gets cursed and wanting someone to take care of Alice.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Rumsy4

[pezgirl7]

25 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Now, Eloise Gardener turned out to be played by an actress who was 34 and Whook based on the actor is 36 years old.

So if Eloise was a "little girl" (let's say 6-10 years old) when he joined the police force, then Rogers must have become a police officer when he was between 7 and 11 years old.

I actually think the actress looks older than Colin, so that made no sense to me. I was expecting her to be a teenager when he found her.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I actually think the actress looks older than Colin, so that made no sense to me. I was expecting her to be a teenager when he found her.

Me too.  I wonder if this was all meant to be a mis-direct so we would think Eloise Gardener was Alice or Rapunzel.  But it's not fair to have a misdirect that is mathematically impossible and contradicts previous information.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But it's not fair to have a misdirect that is mathematically impossible and contradicts previous information.

And yet here we are, over and over again. :-p

[Camera One]

Does this mean they had no idea who the hell Rogers was actually looking for when they were writing Episode 2?  I thought they pre-planned the basic milestone plot points of an arc, at the very least.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why would the Curse give him that desperate need to find Mother Gothel anyway?  Wouldn't he desire to find Alice despite the Curse?  

Maybe his need to find Alice got mapped onto Gothel, which would explain the stuff he said at the end about still not feeling quite satisfied. He hadn't found what he was really looking for (well, he had, but without his memories, he can't have the satisfaction of having found her). And if Gothel was working with Drizella, maybe she rigged that part of his cursed identity that way so he would free her.

As for the ages, beats me. Gothel was hardly in the category of "missing girl." More like "missing woman." She would have been a grown woman when Rogers was starting his career. Tilly certainly wouldn't have been in the age range to have run into her among other runaways, and if he knew as much about her as you'd think someone that obsessed would know, he'd know she was the wrong age for that.

When he first found her, before she turned around, I expected her to have done something to change her appearance, so that although we saw the dreads and the clothes, it would maybe be a different actress -- the Rapunzel actress, maybe -- who looked much younger, like a girl who'd been a child when she went missing 14 or so years ago.

[Curio]

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

"My first year on the job, I was trying to find a missing girl. Searching for her, I went down the wrong alley and I got shot... and then this woman (Emma) came from nowhere [and helped him]....

... I didn't see her again.  But she gave me a second chance, and I vowed to use it to find that poor little missing girl.  I became desperate to succeed.  So desperate.  That I almost lost myself."

1

Maybe Rogers was 21 when he first started and got shot, and the little girl was 12 years old. That's only a 9 year age gap. If Rogers is currently 39 (only a few years old than Colin's real age), then Eloise is 30 (only a few years younger than Emma's real age). It kind of works...ish.

[Camera One]

22 minutes ago, Curio said:

Maybe Rogers was 21 when he first started and got shot, and if Rogers is currently 39 (only a few years old than Colin's real age)

That would have been a long road to detective.  

I guess Colin looking young and the actress looking more mature just made the age differential more striking.

Though I think they did try to fix this in Episode 5 with a few lines.  Rogers says "The case went cold 10 years ago this month".  He also brings up the notebook with "angsty teenage poetry".  So assuming the case went cold after the notebook was found 10 years ago, "Eloise" was a teenager then (let's say 18 years old, to be generous).  That means Eloise now is supposed to be around 28 years old this episode.   

So it could work, with huge stretches.  Though most people don't describe 12 year old girls as "little" so I still wonder about the planning, or lackthereof, on the part of the Writers.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Most people don't count Walsh in the line of rapists in the Show, but his relationship with Emma in the missing year is also rape by deception, unless for some reason their relationship was never consummated.

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't assume people who are engaged have had sex yet.

13 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Didn't Hook Prime learn about the curse from Cora?

Not quite. Cora was the one who told him Regina's curse would wipe his memories. Regina had already mentioned it. But you're right about the timeline being confusing.

[Rumsy4]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Though most people don't describe 12 year old girls as "little" so I still wonder about the planning, or lackthereof, on the part of the Writers.

Lack thereof pretty much covers everything. Especially as there was no explanation as to why Weaver/Rump was trying to stop WHook from finding her. She literally went back to the same place, and is still colluding with Ivy. Same difference. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Based on the Wish EQ that we saw, there is actually a lot in this Wish Realm which were different.  This Wish EQ seemed pretty scared, had zero intensity and didn't even seem that angry anymore.  There is no way Original Recipe Evil Queen would have acted like that.  In many ways, Wish EQ was played for laughs much as Wish Snowing and Wish Emma were.  I mean, that's all nice and good, but it really took me out of the scene when we're supposed to be taking this Wish Realm seriously. 

Assuming it's not just a lapse in the writing or acting.

First (in the post-mortems after "Wish You Were Here" and "Tougher Than the Rest"), A&E say that the Wish Realm is *not* what would have happened in the Enchanted Forest if the Evil Queen hadn't cast her curse (specifically in reference to Emma being a wimp), then in "A Pirate's Life" they have Wish Hook say exactly that. Consistency, what *is* that?

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I had completely forgotten him. Even he got a redemption arc in the Underworld episode. But we have no idea how Guin felt when she woke up, or the aftermath. Did she and Lancelot get together? What happened to his kingdom, etc.

Ugh, I too. And now Arthur's ruling the Underworld when he should have been pushed into the River of Souls. It makes me angry that they didn't devote *any* time to what happened to Guinevere after he died. And that the last we saw Lancelot was his going to his mother for help and then nothing. And that there is still no earthly explanation for why Merlin told the heroes to look for Nimue or what his ultimate plan for Emma and Arthur and all the forces of light was.

[Kktjones]

Not watching the show anymore, but I did happen to see a couple of the Hook scenes that crossed my Tumblr dash. A few thoughts:

• The whole “rape by deception” thing was done for one reason and one reason only – shock value. They could have had the witch seduce Whook as herself and then reveal why after the fact. But they wanted the “twist” of the witch being his daughter’s mother instead of Rapunzel, so they decided to go back to the dubious consent well.
• While I find the scenes between Whook and Alice (both as a baby and a grown woman) to be sweet, I just can’t get into them. It’s like they finally figured out they should slow down and have some special character moments, only it’s a season too late as most of the characters and relationships people care about are gone.
• Is it just me, or is Regina like 100 times nicer to this version of Hook than she was to the original. It’s almost enough to make me wonder if they might end up going the HookedQueen route. Especially since they haven’t introduced anyone else as a love interest for her yet.

ETA: Just thought of one more:

• Does anyone else find it odd that they have Murderella showing so much cleavage? Isn't that usually reserved for villains? Do you think that means she is considered a villain in this world or that she could be headed that way? I don't know anything about her beyond what I've read here, but I found it interesting.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Kktjones

[Rumsy4]

24 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

It’s almost enough to make me wonder if they might end up going the HookedQueen route.

Please, no!! Let's just hope it's the much vaunted "maternal" instinct in her (and not the oedipean kind). But yes--Regina is actually treating WHook like a human being. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Mabinogia]

I would love it if they went down the HookerQueen path. I've shipped them long before he got stuck with Emma. Colin and Lana work wonderfully off of each other and I think they would have a blast working together. But I'm very much in the minority around here.

[Camera One]

I just found this quote from "Wake Up Call" about Eloise Gardener.

Rogers says, "Until she disappeared 10 years ago, she was a normal kid.  Liked art, hated school.  She's a bit of an amateur poet.  Well, that's everything, except that she was fearless until she disappeared when something spooked her... something that was in this journal... some kind of protection rune."

So in Episode 2, she was a "little girl".  This description seems to suggest she was a teenager.  

I guess we're supposed to believe that the actress playing the witch is 23-28 years old (18 is probably the maximum age to be called a "kid" in this context).

Edited November 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

17 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I just found this quote from "Wake Up Call" about Eloise Gardener.

Rogers says, "Until she disappeared 10 years ago, she was a normal kid.  Liked art, hated school.  She's a bit of an amateur poet.  Well, that's everything, except that she was fearless until she disappeared when something spooked her... something that was in this journal... some kind of protection rune."

So in Episode 2, she was a "little girl".  This description seems to suggest she was a teenager.  

I guess we're supposed to believe that the actress playing the witch is 23-28 years old (18 is probably the maximum age to be called a "kid" in this context).

Well, that just ruined my other theory.

Why don't the writers sit down with each other and share notes about these things? Details like this shouldn't be so vague and change depending on the writer's mood each episode.

[CCTC]

23 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The problem is that they've already gone to this well too many times and handled it in such a way that showed they really don't understand the subject and don't get where the line is drawn.

At the time of Graham - it never occurred to me that Regina at some point would not get her comeuppance.  Watching the first season I never guessed Regina would have been transformed into a heroine.  Even in the finale while she had a moment of vulnerability with Henry almost dying -- she was looking smug and scheming when she saw the purple smoke coming.

I have blocked out a lot of the Zellina-Robin -- but didn't they focus more on how it hurt Regina and what  happened to Robin kind of swept under the rug.  Again, I assumed Robin would raise the child not that they would make Zelina a loving mother, although I should have known better at that time.

A&E try to downplay the rape portion of the Graham story line, but do they ever acknowledge how Story Brooke Regina killed him in cold blood?  Whether Graham had free will really did not matter for that part of the crime.

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, CCTC said:

At the time of Graham - it never occurred to me that Regina at some point would not get her comeuppance. 

That was the episode that I thought made Regina irredeemable. Then Adam and Eddy joked on the official podcast that they could've been playing chess in there. I certainly wouldn't have predicted she would eventually be canonized as a Light-Magic wielding, maternal, occasional Savior/Hero. 

[VoicePlaya]

58 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I have blocked out a lot of the Zellina-Robin -- but didn't they focus more on how it hurt Regina and what  happened to Robin kind of swept under the rug.  

Yep. Robin's feelings generally weren't given much consideration. Because heaven forbid anything be allowed to be about anyone other than Regina. I actually saw a tweet yesterday from someone listing Robin's rape under the category of horrible things that happened to Regina. I can't.

After Graham and the crypt sex, I can't say I want to see Regina in a relationship with anyone. I know it's coming, but the idea kind of makes my skin crawl. Especially since this new rape has brought all my feelings about the others right to the surface. That said, I'm thinking that her LI (if she must have one) should and likely will be a completely new character. Whook's about the last person she should be with. The man's suffered enough already.

[Camera One]

I think this could be the one time where the Writers will be hesitant to try to redeem Gothel, or to make light of what she did.  Adam hasn't responded on Twitter, but many people have been tweeting the female writers (see below), two of which adamantly stated that Gothel was evil and a bad bad villain.  With the elevated recognition of sexual harassment in the news, I think even A&E would be willing to do a bit of adjusting.  

Brigitte Hales‏ @InkTankGirl Nov 17

What I found interesting about this story is that he was very much drawn to her tower, and believed himself to be in control. Only to have the tables turned.

Brigitte Hales‏ @InkTankGirl Nov 17

Gothel comes from a long line of temptress villains who glamour and seduce. Mythology is full of them. That is their breed of evil.

Alexa | CS‏ @colinshook Nov 17

Will you adress he was raped? Or will all the writers keep avoiding it?

Brigitte Hales‏ @InkTankGirl Nov 17

Again, I'm not avoiding anything. Gothel is a villain. Evil. Bad. She does terrible things, which is what makes her a villain.

Leah Fong‏ @leahfong Nov 17

All the villains do terrible things. Like killing people, which we've also seen. This show is a portrayal of the light and yes, the dark.

Epona‏ @Epona_610 Nov 17

But why /glorify/ the dark so much?

Leah Fong‏ @leahfong

Replying to @Epona_610 @InkTankGirl @colinshook   Definitely not glorifying or condoning it. But it is a part of fantasy -- the trickery of glamouring, love potions, magic etc from Greek mythology to Harry Potter.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

21 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What I found interesting about this story is that he was very much drawn to her tower, and believed himself to be in control. Only to have the tables turned.

This sort of sickens me. It's like implying that WHook's being deservedly cut down. For what? Going back to rescue the damsel in distress? Maybe I'm being too critical, but I'm tired of the OUAT writers trying to explain everything on twitter, but making it worse. 

The actress playing Gothel seems pretty inexperienced using social media, and apparently got imbroiled arguing with fans, telling the critical ones to stop watching the Show. Then she posted a long message on instagram saying WHook consented to sex with Gothel. She's starting to remind me of Sean Mcguire and his early twitter wars with fans. These people ought to stay away from social media, and let the Show speak for itself, good or bad. Fan engagement can be addictive, but they can turn on you at any given moment. Especially when such sensitive topics as sexual assault are being discussed.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Yeah, that first tweet did seem really inappropriate.  This episode was another case of a character TRYING to do the right thing, but it completely backfires, which makes you wonder - why should anyone do the right thing?  It happened two episodes in a row - in the last one, Regina tries to help Drizella.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

Do they really not see why this bothers so many fans? Or are they trying to convince us it's not as bad as it is? I really can't figure out why they can't just acknowledge that MANY fans have a point. That ignoring the fact that Regina and Zelina both did pretty much what Gothel did and that the show redeemed both of them without ever really making them face what they did. They have to understand that we are concerned that yet another rapist is going to be redeemed with little to no repercussions.

It just feels like they are burying their heads in the sand when it comes to the overwhelming concern the audience has with the message they are sending. That message seems to be that women raping men via deception is okay. That's a horrible, horrible message and I am really hoping that isn't what they are trying to say, but since they aren't really explaining what they were going for, we are left to think that, and that they are now trying to rewrite history to make us forget what really happened. 

I would feel better if they just admitted that when they had Regina rape Graham they didn't realize how it was going to come across, or that both Regina and Zelina were pure evil when they committed those acts, but are now different people. Personally that is how I look at it. Regina has changed very much from the woman who did that. She would never do that now. I personally don't think she needs to be punished for eternity over it, but I get where others are coming from and do wish the writers would at least acknowledge that these women got away with their crimes. 

[VoicePlaya]

16 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This sort of sickens me. It's like implying that WHook's being deservedly cut down. For what? Going back to rescue the damsel in distress? Maybe I'm being too critical, but I'm tired of the OUAT writers trying to explain everything on twitter, but making it worse. 

Yeah. It's things like this that make me think the writers should stay far, far away from twitter. They only make it worse. 

The actress playing Gothel needs to stop. She's not doing herself any favors. I always have to laugh when people tell fans to stop watching if they don't like a storyline. Especially in a situation like this where so many people have already stopped watching. If I could say one thing to her it's be careful what you ask for. Enough people stop watching and she'll find herself out of a job. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, Kktjones said:

Not watching the show anymore, but I did happen to see a couple of the Hook scenes that crossed my Tumblr dash. A few thoughts:

• The whole “rape by deception” thing was done for one reason and one reason only – shock value. They could have had the witch seduce Whook as herself and then reveal why after the fact. But they wanted the “twist” of the witch being his daughter’s mother instead of Rapunzel, so they decided to go back to the dubious consent well.

It would still have been dubious consent if she's portraying it as just sex and has an ulterior motive he wouldn't have agreed to.

43 minutes ago, VoicePlaya said:

The actress playing Gothel needs to stop. She's not doing herself any favors.

Emma Booth is tweeting about it too?

And I forgot about how the Serum Evil Queen being on the verge of forcing herself on Aladdin was Played For Laughs (as we say on TV Tropes).

[KAOS Agent]

Oh it gets worse. Alison Fernandez has weighed in on Twitter and says it's all about how you look at it. To her it was inspirational because the rape baby saved Hook's soul. It's like that whole thing where they tried to spin Regina's evil deeds as good because it taught Snow hope. Or how Emma is only awesome because her entire life sucked. Had she been raised in a loving home, she would have been a mindless simpering idiot. Just please stop. It's whitewashing evil because someone else had the decency to be a good person in spite of someone else's villainy.