S07.E07: Eloise Gardner

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Unpopular opinion: I wish we could've gotten more Wish Regina. She would've been more entertaining and interesting than Roni, especially if there was some kind of time skip like they did with WHook. How did losing her powers affect her? Did become a Pirate Queen? Was she able to seek redemption in another way, similarly to WHook? 

A wet piece of paper would have been more interesting than Roni, so I'm up for that.  

I'm sure Heart of the Truest Believer would have redeemed Wish Regina too, since their parent-child relationship can span realms, and I would be disappointed if A&E never got to write that story.

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

This shows tendency to just bumble into sexual assault and then never deal with the consequences is always one of the worst things about it. 

Especially the fact that they never deal with the consequences, and even makes light of it or makes it seem like a positive thing.

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

There were only a couple of episodes between Rogers meeting Tilly and him finding "Eloise," so there's not a lot to lose. It would lose the chess scene and him pushing her in the wheelchair, and those were nice bits, but I think there are some possible workarounds.

It's funny how a few little scenes felt like so much more.  It really does seem like Rogers and Alice had spent more scenes together than that.

In the scenario I was considering, this would be an arc that would stretch for much of the season, with Rogers slowly finding clues to uncover the truth and then rescuing Tilly.  Then, the rest of the season would be anticipating their memories returning to realize they were father and daughter.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

I do actually like a lot of aspects of this episode, it has some fun moments and Lord knows Colin is working his ass off to make this story work, even when its amazingly stupid. 

WHook and Smee (thats Captain Smee to you!) fighting a giant lawn gnome is the kind of ridiculousness that I can actually get behind, and I really love how Colin can actually play a Hook that is just slightly different than Hook Prime, a bit younger and a bit less ruthless and cynical having not spent quite so long on his quest for revenge, as well as Rogers in his lowest moments. I also really love that much like Hook Prime, Hook would give up his beloved Jolly Roger and his quest for revenge, for love one time for Emma, and one time for his newborn daughter. 

I already ranted quite a bit about how disturbing it is that Gothel raped WHook to get her baby so she could leave the tower (which is really messed up, she was basically going to leave her own baby to stave to death for her own benefit) and the show just never acknowledges what she did to him, but watching it now, I also have to wonder what the point of it was, besides the writers wanting to do a Rapunzel plot twist. Why did Gothel have to put on that disguise and do this whole charade anyway, she is already a pretty good looking woman, maybe with a better outfit, and WHook doesent really seem all that picky about who he shivers his timbers with, even if she is a witch, so...why? 

This whole thing about Eloise being Gothel is just bizarre, with them treating it like she should still be a young teen at the oldest, and calling her the "missing girl" when she is clearly a grown ass woman! What is the timeline here exactly of her going supposedly missing and Rogers obsessively looking for her? Its not even like with Storeybrooke where the details of peoples backstories and of the town seemed off, which just added to the unreal nature of the town and curse, its just confusing, because Seattle is a very real place filled with very real people, and I have no idea how all of this fits into the curse! 

I love how they cut from WHook confirming that Alice/Tilly is his daughter to Rogers giving Tilly a very dad like "not mad, just disappointed" speech in Seattle!

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

In the scenario I was considering, this would be an arc that would stretch for much of the season, with Rogers slowly finding clues to uncover the truth and then rescuing Tilly. 

Then we have the old problem of how we'd lose most of their early interaction or else he looks dumb for not realizing that the girl he's hanging out with is the missing girl he's supposedly obsessed with.

And I guess my scenario doesn't explain why Victoria cares about whether or not she's found, to the point of interfering with his investigation (which he was already suspicious of).

So ... let's say that the fake memories of how all this started are that Tilly's parents were involved with Victoria in her shady business dealings. Tilly overheard them talking about what they had planned and got caught. Victoria threatened her, and Tilly was horrified that her parents not only didn't jump to her defense, but agreed with Victoria and threatened her to keep quiet. Tilly ran away in fear. Her parents figured the cops were more likely to act if they made it sound like a possible kidnapping (or maybe even it almost was a kidnapping when Victoria sent someone to make Tilly be quiet, thus her running away without her journal or dropping her journal when trying to escape). But Victoria doesn't really want her to be found, so she interferes with the investigation. Her real reason, of course, is that the curse didn't fully affect Tilly and she might ruin everything if she remembers. Then all the stuff I proposed about Tilly only marginally interacting with Rogers, and only with her hood up and in the dark. Rogers starts noticing clues, maybe in things she says or things he finds in her hideout, but just as he starts to realize who she is, Victoria kidnaps her to keep her quiet, and that's when there can be a real investigation that can span multiple episodes as Rogers has to rescue the missing girl he just found.

There's a big timeline issue that comes up in this episode. WRegina approaches WHook right as he's prepping for the curse, which means that Alice and Emma should be about the same age, since Alice is born around the time the curse would have been cast and Emma was born right as the curse was cast. Emma was around 30 at the end of season 6, and at this point, Henry has not only grown into an adult in his 30s but also has a daughter around 10. At the very least, Alice should be at least 50. She should definitely be older than Henry, since she's old enough to be his mother.

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

There's a big timeline issue that comes up in this episode. WRegina approaches WHook right as he's prepping for the curse, which means that Alice and Emma should be about the same age, since Alice is born around the time the curse would have been cast and Emma was born right as the curse was cast. Emma was around 30 at the end of season 6, and at this point, Henry has not only grown into an adult in his 30s but also has a daughter around 10. At the very least, Alice should be at least 50. She should definitely be older than Henry, since she's old enough to be his mother.

So this was the first episode which brought up this huge timeline issue.  I don't think I noticed it at the time.  I guess the explanation you mentioned before could have explained it (I think you said maybe Alice being in Wonderland or "other places" stopped her from aging?).  But since the show itself never brought her age up, it seems like the Writers didn't notice it themselves.  Or maybe they figured people in their 20's don't look too different from people in their 50's.  Since this is the same episode where a "missing girl" around 20 looks like she's pushing 40.

Spoiler

Plus didn't they make it worse in a future episode?

Edited October 8, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I guess the explanation you mentioned before could have explained it (I think you said maybe Alice being in Wonderland or "other places" stopped her from aging?).  But since the show itself never brought her age up, it seems like the Writers didn't notice it themselves.  Or maybe they figured people in their 20's don't look too different from people in their 50's.  Since this is the same episode where a "missing girl" around 20 looks like she's pushing 40.

It's the same issue as with Rogers -- according to just about every measure of the passage of time, WHook should be in his 60s, even after the de-aging. If we're just supposed to assume that he's aging better than he did the first time around (giving up rum made a huge difference) and he just happens to look young even though enough time has passed for Henry to have a daughter around 10, then he'd be pushing retirement age instead of being a super-ambitious, up-and-coming detective. There's a big difference between a late teens-early 20s quirky street kid and a 50-year-old bag lady, and Tilly is being played as a young runaway.

The "other places" maybe having put a hold on her aging works, but then it brings up other issues.

Spoiler

Once we get the Rapunzel backstory, we learn that Murderella was in her teens (at least) and Drizella was a tween when Alice was born, since Gothel didn't get trapped in the tower until Anastasia died, and there's no telling how much time passed before WHook showed up. If Alice should be around 50 in the present, Murderella should be at least 65 and Drizella not much younger. Alice going off somewhere she didn't age doesn't explain them not aging. And meanwhile, WHook, living in the same place, did age (he was graying when he was cursed, so even if he went elsewhere and aged faster after that, he did age while living there). Once Henry gets to that world, he ages, possibly faster than expected, except then we find out the passage of time in Storybrooke, based on Robyn's age, and they all seem to be on the same schedule. There is absolutely no way to reconcile the ages of Ella, Alice, Robyn, and Lucy, given the milestones they showed.

[Camera One]

26 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

There's a big difference between a late teens-early 20s quirky street kid and a 50-year-old bag lady, and Tilly is being played as a young runaway.

Now I'm imagining an alternative Season 7 with the bag lady.  Maybe the one who sings "Feed the Birds"?

Edited October 8, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Now I'm imagining an alternative Season 7 with the bag lady.  Maybe the one who sings "Feed the Birds"?

An alternative season 7 in which all the characters are the age they really should be is amusing to imagine. We've got Alice as the "Feed the Birds" bag lady. Rogers is the "I'm getting too old for this" cop on the verge of retirement, paired with an eager rookie for one last case. Roni is the grizzled old barmaid. Weaver seems younger than any of them (since he doesn't age).