S13.E05: Advanced Thanatology

[SueB]

Of COURSE I loved it. This season is really 'kicking it in the ass'.

Sam: Oh honey. You are so very very transparent. "Solid move." on a PB&J? And he actually read the reviews of the Clam Diver. First off, let me just say, I double checked urban dictionary and yes, that strip club name is filthy. What they get away with on this show... mind boggling. Anyway, Sam is just at a loss on how to make Dean better so he does these 'nice' things. And I'm thinking -- Dean's a hunter Sam. He'd have to be brain dead not to notice. I also love how 1) Dean gets Sam a lap dance for Christmas and 2) Sam's response is to try to talk the girl into nursing school. I know it's an easy joke but I enjoyed it. On a more serious note, as much as I adore Dean, there are times I think it must suck to love him. Dude is reckless. And when he's depressed, he's downright scary reckless. Sam looked so worried the whole freakin' episode. Jared did a great job with both the comedy and the panic. I do love that he pushed to make Dean talk. And I see that as real character growth that Dean actually responded.

Dean: Ouch. What a beautiful, multi-layered performance. I like the second call-back to S1; the first being in 13.1 with the 'phone call to God (dad)'. On first viewing I thought Dean was too hard on himself. I thought he did a good job of trying to relate to Shawn and get him to open up - just like he did with Lucas in "Dead In the Water." On second viewing, I can see how while it looks like he took an effective approach, I also see Dean's perspective about not pushing enough. Shawn was old enough to reason with. If Dean had perhaps appealed to the kid's sense of guilt: i.e. 'that monster is out there and will hurt others', Shawn might have cracked. I don't remotely think it's "on" Dean that the ghost showed up at Shawn's house. I do think Dean didn't have a sense of urgency that was perhaps warranted. Again, this is not a 'normal scale'. This is on the Dean-Winchester-superhero scale. And one of Dean's superpowers is to get people to do the right thing when they really don't want to. And Dean knows it. Which is why he felt so guilty. I think that guilt triggered his flatlining manuever. (note: according to Yockey, the note on the top of the box said "From Doc Roberts" ... who was the guy in S6 who flatlined Dean the first time). But Sam was spot on -- that flatliner move was really over the top. I GET it. Dean said exactly what the issue was - he couldn't save his Mom, Cas or now the 'Victim of the Week'. Now this is Dean's POV -- not 'truth'. But if Dean can't save a random nice kid on a classic ghost salt & burn -- well, that's no bueno. 

Dean vs Billie: How DELICIOUS! I too will miss Julian Richings. He was so perfectly snarky in that role. But I do like Billie. And I like that there's a LOT going on in that library scene. The call back to how Dean killed Death. The cool menace that she brings plus the complex history. Death, once again, has a special relationship with Dean. That HAS to mean something IMO. I also liked his honest 'that sounds like us' comment about them just knocking down the complex multiverse house of cards. It's not that the boys are clumsy, but they are also exceptionally adept at pursuing their goals. I FULLY expect Dean to cause a ruckus with the rift in an upcoming episode. 

Billie: Just fantastic. And ready to chew glass. But I like her no-nonsense. And I have zero problem with her 'reading' Dean's despair. How else are you going to get those kind of admissions out of Dean? You're not. But Billie outting him on his suicidal ideation is fitting and important. I wouldn't want to leave that up to just intepretation of Jensen's distraught face. I also like that she's not going to tell him WHY he has to live but gives him the catch phrase "you've got work to do". I'm fairly certain she sent him back before he could get his question out just to be mean. Or to prevent him from attempting to stumble through another rift. Or both.

Cas: Oh my sweet, sweet, angelic being. He looked ready to cry. I need a MASSIVE hug at the start of the next episode.

Other bits: I couldn't help myself -- when Dean was piling on the bacon, I thought - dude, you reek. You are in last night's clothes and you slept on the floor. And what was the flogger for??? OTOH, I totally approve of his hangover breakfast and the boys staying at a nicer hotel with actual breakfast. 

On a shallow note: Sam look GOOD in that FBI suit. His shoulder to hips ratio was particularly outstanding. Also Dean freckles -- I love it when they let Jensen's freckles show.

In sum: LOVED this episode. The character work was so very very meaty. There's tons of mythology set up and Cas is BACK. Very happy fan here.

Edited November 14, 2017 by SueB

[SueB]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:41 PM, Res said:

No, not at all. It was stupid and OOC as it was shown in S5 "My Bloody Valentine" when Dean gets this low, like dead inside low, he doesn't even care enough to engage in, what did they call it?, "unattached drifter Christmas"? IE strip clubs. Plus, he knew the kid was very disturbed and kids in danger or being hurt are a hot topic for him. So, no, IMO, it was just more checklist Dean quirks whether they make sense or not. (Evidence that Dean overeats enthusiastically to the point of grossness? check. Evidence that Dean is an alcoholic? check. Evidence that Dean has to be a horndog? check. *SIGH*)

Dean has had life-shattering experiences since S5. I think Ditty Dot Dot's take is spot on.  Dean's willingness to drink during a case when he's depressed was established in S7.

Also, I think he's been carrying around Dr Robert's 'just in case' case since he took all those pills in Red Meat.  Probably realized those syringes would have helped in that episode.

On 11/10/2017 at 10:15 PM, ahrtee said:

**ETA: Removing a loss isn't the same as a win; it doesn't have the same pride or sense of accomplishment, even if the results are what you were hoping for.

In S10 Dean was thrilled when Cas got his grace back and called that a "win".  Even though he thought his hopes of getting the Mark removed had been dashed, their little pizza party at the end was a joyeous moment for Dean.  So I think anything that puts a "W" in the Team Free Will column is a win for Dean. He doesn't need to personally win.  Just like he doesn't need to personally fail to feel like they are 'losing'. 

[SueB]

On 11/11/2017 at 3:02 PM, devlin123 said:

Wow what a depressing episode made even more tragic by JA's beautiful acting. Dean would be dead if it weren't for someone else deciding that he wasn't allowed to finally rest but that he had to shoulder yet another burden. It is sad that Dean only sees his worth in what he can do for  others. Sam was so intent on Lucifer's son and proving he was right that he failed to notice his own flesh and blood was slowly drowning. The sad irony of it is that I bet Jack feels he matters, Sam made sure of that

I'm not sure Dean's original plan to be revived by the second syringe didn't work.  Just like last time, once Death was notified, Death took over what was happening with Dean's body.  She even acknowledged it wasn't his "time".  So, poor "shit, I've been assigned to Dean Winchester!" Reaper notifies Death before the second syringe. Billie takes her sweet time in showing up -- to screw with both Sam and Dean a bit.  And then she stops time so that Dean's body and Sam's actions are 'stalled' while she has her chat with Dean.  

Conversely, if Billie didn't have a new job was was still just a routine Reaper, SHE might have ensured he stayed dead (like Dean expected).  But now she has a 'bigger picture' and has to suck it up that Dean Winchester doesn't die that day.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Conversely, if Billie didn't have a new job was was still just a routine Reaper, SHE might have ensured he stayed dead (like Dean expected). 

I don't think so.  She didn't make sure he stayed dead in Red Meat.  Just the opposite, IMO. She froze time in that episode in order to have a conversation with him, in which she told him Sam was still alive, which gave Dean the will to fight back into his body.  I could never really figure Billie out. She kept threatening them, but she helped them every single episode she was in.  

[SueB]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:43 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Also, why wasn't Sam with him? Did Dean sneak out? Or did Sam just say okay, the jig is up, after the conversation at the hotel lobby and let Dean go out on his own?

I think Dean was like 'the strip club is a good idea but you coming with is not necessary and kinda a buzz kill, so I'm going and you do what you want to do".

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think so.  She didn't make sure he stayed dead in Red Meat.  Just the opposite, IMO. She froze time in that episode in order to have a conversation with him, in which she told him Sam was still alive, which gave Dean the will to fight back into his body.  I could never really figure Billie out. She kept threatening them, but she helped them every single episode she was in.  

my head Canon is that she was Deaths apprentice before he died.That she was being told by Death to watch out for the Winchester's and that they may have a larger  purpose, but she disliked them and didn't understand why death let them live. Then when Mary came back she had a new Target sbli she let them live. And once she became Death understood the bigger picture.

[Pondlass1]

The episode was beautifully shot.  Impressive. Kudos to whoever is in charge of that kind of thing.

[takalotti]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think so.  She didn't make sure he stayed dead in Red Meat.  Just the opposite, IMO. She froze time in that episode in order to have a conversation with him, in which she told him Sam was still alive, which gave Dean the will to fight back into his body.  I could never really figure Billie out. She kept threatening them, but she helped them every single episode she was in.  

But wasn’t that before her "Enough is enough. Next time you die you’re going somewhere no one can bring you back: The Empty. And all the reapers are in on this plan" speech?

And FWIW, I always took that speech as the show’s attempt to bring the audience back to a state of "Oh no, he/they might die!" tension like in the beginning of the show rather than the meme respresented state of "We don’t always die, but when we do, we don’t" we’ve been in for a while.

Edited November 14, 2017 by takalotti

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Dean was like 'the strip club is a good idea but you coming with is not necessary and kinda a buzz kill, so I'm going and you do what you want to do".

Eh I don't see him doing that. I still think he and Sam went together, maybe Sam hooked up with someone himself, Dean goes back to the room with a partner. Sam comes back later and fails to notice passed out Dean. To me that makes more sense than Sam not hearing Dean come in. That's my head canon and I'm sticking to it.

[SueB]

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Personally, I think the drunken Dean scene was supposed to be funny.  He's got the bra wrapped around him and that whip in his hand and he's snoring away on the floor.  I don't disagree with everyone who stated that it's not a great idea to leave someone who's inebriated lie on their back like that, but I don't believe it was done to show a lack of care on Sam's part.  I think they just went for the laugh and didn't think twice about the reality of the situation.  

If they were genuinely trying to show Dean's state of mind by having him pass out drunk on the floor, it didn't work.  If that's what they were going for, there are about a thousand better ways they could show that.  That's why I think that scene, and the bacon scene, were written for the humor.  I personally am a bit sick of those particular types of scenes, but obviously someone thinks they're funny.

I think it's Jensen who thinks their funny.  And it's Jensen who ad-libbed the gross eating.  This is his sense of humor.  It's not mine, but it's his.  I think the writers write to what they think are the actor's strength.  In this case, they are writing more 'food scenes' for Jensen because he can make what some think is 'comedy gold' out of them.

And by some, I'm going with the same folks who like 'potty humor', 'Three Stooges', and 'The Naked Gun'.  Which pretty much is Dean Winchester.  And quite possibly J2, given the shenanigans they are constantly pulling.

As for Dean's state - I think @MysteryGuest has it right - it was a bit of humor.  My personal theory on sequence:

- Dean tells Sam to stay home but he's going to the strip club and he Ubers over because he intends to drink
- During his lap dance, the tie/bra/flogger are added/adjusted to his FBI ensemble
- Someone pours Dean into a cab and shitfaced Dean keeps it together enough to get to the room.  Then he walks in the room, stumbles around a bit and falls down while tring to pull off his shoe.  He decides staying on the floor is a good idea.  It's been decades but I've been this shit-faced -- no need to explain to me how he ended up on the floor in that condition, it's kinda par -- and once Dean got back in the room, sleeping anywhere is fine by him
- Dean snored because alcohol causes your muscles in your neck to relax more than normal.  Google "snoring and drinking" -- there's a direct correlation and that's why it's a movie trope
- Sam leaving Dean on the floor is kind of a 'dude' move.  Realistically, just leaving Dean on the floor to sleep it off is kinda normal bro-behavior. Realistically, the club closed at 2am, it's been 5-6 hrs.  If Dean was going to throw up, it have been by then.  So, even 'woke' Sam was probably not worried for Dean's health. And at least Dean is in a locked room.  "Safe" enough.
- Sam brought Dean "hair of the dog" (alcohol) to help with the hangover.  For those who don't know this one; 'hair of the dog who bit you' is the full expression used when people drink more the next day (alcohol being the 'dog that bit you') to decrease their pain level (they are just re-activating a bit of their buzz) until the rest of the alcohol is out of their system.  

In sum, it was a funny scene. Being that shitfaced I can easily see Dean ending up on the floor and Sammy just leaving him there 5-6 hrs later. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But wasn’t that before her "Enough is enough. Next time you die you’re going somewhere no one can bring you back: The Empty. And all the reapers are in on this plan" speech?

I think she made that clear to Sam in the first episode she was introduced. And still, every single episode after that, she bitched, snarked, threatened and still helped. Each time. It was pretty silly. 

Her being upgrade to Death with a greater understanding of things at least gives her a more relatable motivation. Like, I can see why she put Dean back on the board. Whereas I didn`t see why she helped them as a Reaper each and every time.     

Quote

Eh I don't see him doing that. I still think he and Sam went together, maybe Sam hooked up with someone himself, Dean goes back to the room with a partner. Sam comes back later and fails to notice passed out Dean. To me that makes more sense than Sam not hearing Dean come in. That's my head canon and I'm sticking to it.

For me, no scenario makes sense really. I thought the moment was painfully and pathetically unfunny and a disservice to the character. And IMO it is the director`s job to nix such stuff even if the actors want that. Reel them in, in that case. That falls under directing umbrella as well. Unfortunately, directors on this show fall down on this part. Or, at least do one take for the gag reels and then do a "real" take.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean snored because alcohol causes your muscles in your neck to relax more than normal.  Google "snoring and drinking" -- there's a direct correlation and that's why it's a movie trope

except Dean gets drunk and sleeps on his back and has never snored before.

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Sam leaving Dean on the floor is kind of a 'dude' move.  Realistically, just leaving Dean on the floor to sleep it off is kinda normal bro-behavior. Realistically, the club closed at 2am, it's been 5-6 hrs.  If Dean was going to throw up, it have been by then.  So, even 'woke' Sam was probably not worried for Dean's health. And at least Dean is in a locked room.  "Safe" enough.

Strange time for Sam to pull some rather atypical "dude bro"behavior.

[Wayward Son]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me, no scenario makes sense really. I thought the moment was painfully and pathetically unfunny and a disservice to the character. And IMO it is the director`s job to nix such stuff even if the actors want that. Reel them in, in that case. That falls under directing umbrella as well. Unfortunately, directors on this show fall down on this part. Or, at least do one take for the gag reels and then do a "real" take.

Assuming the theory this is a Jensen ad lib is correct (I’m not saying it is definitely right I’m just playing devils advocate) then them keeping it in makes sense to me. By all accounts the people behind the show “trust Jared and Jensen”. We’ve heard tales of them switching lines with each other, we’ve heard tales of them rewriting lines they felt were out of character, we’ve heard of them adding actions to scenes or changing a scripted “angry” to something softer. By all accounts it seems like J2 can pretty much get away with anything they want with the exception of changing the arc for the season as a whole. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesnt.  I get the impression no one is really going to challenge them on something as small as how Dean eats, even if they should. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

except Dean gets drunk and sleeps on his back and has never snored before.

Actually, I think he usually sleeps on his stomach.  I know he was sleeping on his stomach in Phantom Traveler and Dark Side of the Moon. He was sleeping sitting up in Provenance.  Which makes sense to me, because he keeps a weapon under his pillow and it would be easier to grab it from a face down position.  And people who snore don't necessarily snore all the time. 

[Pondlass1]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought the moment was painfully and pathetically unfunny and a disservice to the character. And IMO it is the director`s job to nix such stuff even if the actors want that. Reel them in, in that case. That falls under directing umbrella as well. Unfortunately, directors on this show fall down on this part. Or, at least do one take for the gag reels and then do a "real" take.

I love and respect Jensen as an actor and a man.  But if indeed it was his idea to embellish for laughs - then he needs to be reeled in.  It's getting annoying and, as you point out, is a disservice to the character.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think she made that clear to Sam in the first episode she was introduced. And still, every single episode after that, she bitched, snarked, threatened and still helped. Each time. It was pretty silly. 

Her being upgrade to Death with a greater understanding of things at least gives her a more relatable motivation. Like, I can see why she put Dean back on the board. Whereas I didn`t see why she helped them as a Reaper each and every time.     

For me, no scenario makes sense really. I thought the moment was painfully and pathetically unfunny and a disservice to the character. And IMO it is the director`s job to nix such stuff even if the actors want that. Reel them in, in that case. That falls under directing umbrella as well. Unfortunately, directors on this show fall down on this part. Or, at least do one take for the gag reels and then do a "real" take.

It didn't really do Sam any favors either. So I'm just puzzled by it. If I were more conspiratorial I would think Dean never got to the strip club and met some bachelorette party in the bar hence the bra and novelty flogger. Or just came back alone and Sam wasn't there.

Or it was all a put on for Sam because he had gone out to off himself, changed his mind and came back but needed Sam to think he had been out doing debauchery rather than contemplating using Dr. Roberts Emergency Kit.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Actually, I think he usually sleeps on his stomach.  I know he was sleeping on his stomach in Phantom Traveler and Dark Side of the Moon. He was sleeping sitting up in Provenance.  Which makes sense to me, because he keeps a weapon under his pillow and it would be easier to grab it from a face down position.  And people who snore don't necessarily snore all the time. 

He sleeps on his back as well and sitting up. No snoring typically  if ever.

IMO, if Sam didn't leave him there it would have been funny. like they could have had a bit where he tried to put him on the bed but couldn't so he left him on the floor and turned him on his side with a pillow.

[Wayward Son]

20 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I love and respect Jensen as an actor and a man.  But if indeed it was his idea to embellish for laughs - then he needs to be reeled in.  It's getting annoying and, as you point out, is a disservice to the character.

Sadly, I don’t think that will ever happen. As I said to Aeryn, rightly or wrongly, the show has developed the attitude of “no one knows Sam and Dean better than Jared and Jensen”. So if Jensen’s perception of Dean is that he’s a messy eater, or it’s funny to make him one at least, then no one is going to challenge Jensen on that. In the earlier years of the show they would have but certainly not now. Since we know they can switch lines, rewrite scenes they don’t like, change the way they portray things i.e soft and annoyed as opposed to heatedly angry etc without being opposed then how Dean eats is pretty low key in comparison. 

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He sleeps on his back as well and sitting up. No snoring typically  if ever.

IMO, if Sam didn't leave him there it would have been funny. like they could have had a bit where he tried to put him on the bed but couldn't so he left him on the floor and turned him on his side with a pillow.

He would have still been snoring.  Apparently only buffoons do that.  Not sure why, but that's the consensus I'm getting.

[catrox14]

Dean eating slovenly is a relatively new thing though. He didn't do that in early seasons. I legit can't remember Dean having those kinds of eating habits on a regular basis until like s8. He loved food and would chow down but he always used napkins etc. He had the weiners in s1 and sliders in s2 but not slovenly all the time. And he purposefully annoyed Sam in Tall Tales by eating fries in bed and Sam exaggerated his stuffing his face.

If Dean's eating habits were being used as a sign that Dean is not okay, I'd be on board.

[Aeryn13]

I super-miss Kim Manners. Because I believe he wouldn`t have left stuff in his episodes he didn`t want in AND the actors, including J2, would have respected him far too much to make a fuzz. 

The scene just didn`t gel with the rest of the episode. Dean is dead inside and Sam`s plan to ply him with creature comforts obviously won`t work. So why show him like a pathetic buffoon on the floor who is so shallow obviously creature comforts are all that`s needed to satisfy those two brain cells? Sam is tryng to super-nice to the point that it only becomes super-weird but the second it looks like his silly plan actually IS working, he looks annoyed at "Dean the plebe".

Pick a theme and stick with it. Dean is depressed until he gets his win with Cas and Sam is trying to be supportive, using stuff that can`t work. This is what the episode showed us, it should have been kept consistent and not broken for an obnoxious bit on "comedy".        

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He would have still been snoring.  Apparently only buffoons do that.  Not sure why, but that's the consensus I'm getting.

I'm saying that the scene could have been sweetly amusing if Sam had at least tried to put him in the bed. He looks cold-hearted just leaving him there. The snoring was annoying but I'm worried about Dean possibly choking on his own puke and if Sam turned him on his side it's less likely.

It was just a bad scene that imo didn't fit the tone of episode. Jensen can be just as funny not being slapstick.

Edited November 14, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Jensen can be just as funny not being slapstick.

But he LIKES that.  Personally I’d rather he dialed it back but  I’m not holding my breath.  

 

All I’m suggesting is that to ascribe motivation to the writers about these kind of scenes seems IMO misplaced.  I’m not remotely team ‘gross Body humor’ but this is less of a writing choice (IMO) and more of a Jensen choice in many circumstances.  If it’s in the writing it’s there  (I suspect) as a tee up for Jensen to run with it.  

[Pondlass1]

They shoot odd scenes here and there and very much out of sequence.  Jensen probably did think it funny and didn't give it much thought.  But it should've been edited out.  It was unnecessary and didn't make practical sense.  We've all tried to head canon when he left, how he got back etc.  And Sam is not shown in a very nice light, just walking out like that.

The five pounds of bacon was stupid enough, but that morning after scene stuck out like a sore thumb.

I blame editing.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

But he LIKES that.  Personally I’d rather he dialed it back but  I’m not holding my breath.  

 

All I’m suggesting is that to ascribe motivation to the writers about these kind of scenes seems IMO misplaced.  I’m not remotely team ‘gross Body humor’ but this is less of a writing choice (IMO) and more of a Jensen choice in many circumstances.  If it’s in the writing it’s there  (I suspect) as a tee up for Jensen to run with it.  

It's not being ascribed it to the writers solely. Several commenters have said it's an issue with Jensen, the directors and the writing to some degree. The scene may have been something as vague as Dean is passed out drunk or it may have been fully scripted. it doesn't matter to me if Jensen or the writer or director or producers or Joe Blow in the network thought it's hilarious, I as a viewer did not. I, as a viewer, found it misplaced humor during a heavy episode.

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not being ascribed it to the writers solely. Several commenters have said it's an issue with Jensen, the directors and the writing to some degree. The scene may have been something as vague as Dean is passed out drunk or it may have been fully scripted. it doesn't matter to me if Jensen or the writer or director or producers or Joe Blow in the network thought it's hilarious, I as a viewer did not. I, as a viewer, found it misplaced humor during a heavy episode.

On 11/12/2017 at 10:56 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I didn't like the Dean passed out on the floor scenario.  It's a side of Dean where they go way over the top IMO, similar to the messy eating we get each week.

Dean's life is filled with violence, despair and loss yet the guy still finds joy in almost anything.... even a rainbow slinky.  I admire him so much for that trait and wish I could be the same. 

But they could've had him walk through the motel door that morning, looking haggard, hair tousled, shirt untucked, etc., and saying he decided to check out the reviews... or whatever.  

You're right @catrox14 , I have been presuming "they" was equivalent with "writers".  As posted later, the original poster is blaming editing.  I put it at Jensen's feet because he plays it up and I think others 'feed him' that material now.  I really don't see anyone cutting out an acting choice they may like as well.

For me its a minor 'meh' and I'm moving on. Certainly not worth continued discussion.

[Myrelle]

I just re-watched this one for the second time(first episode I've re-watched at all since Regarding Dean also) and, like that one, this episode just gets better on the re-watch, IMO

Lots of little things, like the THEN segment being an absolute perfect match to the episode and Dean's lifeless eyes throughout the episode, even when the demented doc is coming at him with the drill. And the doc was looking to cure illnesses like depression through lobotomizing his "patients".

And that Dean/Billie scene is so chock full of good stuff that it warrants even another re-watch, AFAIC.

[catrox14]

Thinking more on it, I feel like that scene was more about Sam than Dean. And I don't know if my personal reaction that Sam was being kind of cold leaving Dean on the floor was intended to be the reaction. Maybe it's my own personal abhorrence to think someone would just leave another person in that state, especially if you care about the person.  If he had put Dean in bed or gave him a little bed on the floor, I wouldn't really think much about that scene other than the logistics of how Dean got past Sam. But Sam's "Great" and eyeroll really bugged me.

Maybe someone will ask them at Hawaii Con what was happening with that scene.

And also ask Jensen what's going on with Dean. Has he been suicidal from the moment he lost Cas and Mary? Or did he just kind of think...hmmm maybe I'll just take a knee since I'm here?

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And also ask Jensen what's going on with Dean. Has he been suicidal from the moment he lost Cas and Mary? Or did he just kind of think...hmmm maybe I'll just take a knee since I'm here?

I honestly don't think so. He said that he figured he was done, given how Billie feels about them. She already wanted them in the Empty, and that was before they facilitated her 'death' via Cas. Until she appeared, he was 100% intent on getting back into his body. After, it wasn't until she read his acceptance as wanting to die that the worm turned. He was depressed enough not to 'beg' for his life, but he wasn't actively attempting suicide. I'd still say it was more fatalism and acceptance than any pre-existing death wish.

[Myrelle]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd still say it was more fatalism and acceptance than any pre-existing death wish.

IA. She said that he was trying to fight through it again, but that he also knew that this time it was different because he also knew that he couldn't. And she was definitely shocked when he simply asked her to save the ghosts in exchange for the intel on the AU, instead of asking for what he'd said he would like at first(to be sent back to take care of the houseful of ghosts) when he believed that it was up to him right after that bit when she said it "depends on him". His reasoning that he believed that she wouldn't allow that anyway, would not have precluded the Dean Winchester that "she knew and loved" from asking/demanding that anyway-especially when he knew how badly she wanted the intel. And that little give and take beforehand was gold, too, because that WAS the old never give up and go down swinging Dean who demanded "What's in it for me?". He was trying so hard to still be that Dean in this entire episode. He even took physical point in the house when they were on the hunt. I loved that. And his "What's up, Doc?", too.

Again, I say that I am amazed at how Jensen can breathe something new into this utterly redundant depressed and grief-stricken Dean "storyline" that every showrunner this show has ever had has saddled him with at one time or another.

To me, Billie was speaking truth in saying that this time it was "different" for him and that he was "different", because to me, Dean has never ever before seemed lower, more despondent, and gripped by such hopelessness and despair as he has been during these first five episodes of S13, and even though he's been trying so hard to make it seem like it's just business as usual for him.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Myrelle

[SueB]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I honestly don't think so. He said that he figured he was done, given how Billie feels about them. She already wanted them in the Empty, and that was before they facilitated her 'death' via Cas. Until she appeared, he was 100% intent on getting back into his body. After, it wasn't until she read his acceptance as wanting to die that the worm turned. He was depressed enough not to 'beg' for his life, but he wasn't actively attempting suicide. I'd still say it was more fatalism and acceptance than any pre-existing death wish.

I agree with this summary.  Its not so much that he’d actively make that choice — in fact he said if it was up to him he’d go back.  This was his version of ‘not screaming’ (like Missouri was with that Wraith).  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And also ask Jensen what's going on with Dean. Has he been suicidal from the moment he lost Cas and Mary?

His reaction when he, that is his ghostly self, told Sam "come on, come on" and "why isn`t it working?" was very genuine. He had gotten the intel he wanted and now wanted to finish the case, pronto. Even after the sad news about being unable to save one more person. Only when Billie showed up and brought him to her "office", he became accepting. To me, that is the opposite of being really suicidal. He didn`t welcome going back to life all that much in that moment but he didn`t run to his death prior to this either.  

Quote

And she was definitely shocked when he simply asked her to save the ghosts in exchange for the intel on the AU, instead of asking for what he'd said he would like at first(to be sent back to take care of the houseful of ghosts) when he believed that it was up to him right after that bit when she said it "depends on him". 

Yes, she was shocked he asked for the ghosts` freedom for sure. I`m thinking she expected him to ask for his mother or Cas to be brought back even more than himself in that moment. I mean, "take me back to that fight, I`m not done yet" would have absolutely been Dean (a Dean who believed in things of course) but "bring back x person, they didn`t deserve to die" would have been even more Dean. ANY kind of Dean, believer or not. Heck, if he had asked the kid to be brought back to life, it wouldn`t have been out of character, especially in the situation. 

And it definitely shifted the conversation a bit. Even beyond her seeing things differently as Death. It was almost as she had more respect and/or sympathy for him that he was so accepting of things. That he acknowledged the Winchester tendency to mess with cosmic matters. No and, ifs or buts about it.

I don`t like much about the way the show had progressed over the years because most of it has been downhill in my eyes but I`ll give them one thing:  the Winchesters have now become such big cosmic players that other big entities talk to them like equals in a way. Which feels fitting. That would have been out of place and downright ludicrous when the show started. But it`s organic now. When Lucifer as rockstar Vince whined how Daddy left him again and threw in "and you too, btw", there was almost a sense of weird camaraderie there for a split second. Old Death once told Dean "Dean Winchester tipping over his king, yada yada" and now new Death snarks about "the Winchester I know and love". 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And also ask Jensen what's going on with Dean. Has he been suicidal from the moment he lost Cas and Mary? Or did he just kind of think...hmmm maybe I'll just take a knee since I'm here?

I think it goes back further.  I keep thinking of Dean's face after Sam announced he chose Team British Men of Letters. Dean didn't get angry or yell, he just looked resigned.  I think being betrayed by Sam, Mary, and then multiple times by Cas just continued to pile on the burdens.  Because after 12.15 Dean just came across as the basically just a shell.  He went through the motions but he just seemed to disengaged.  If I look at Dean's actions in 12.B though Dean's current head space it puts it in a different perspective. 

I think losing, Cas, Mary and even Crowley was the straw that broke the camel's back.   But I think the depression started much earlier.

I think this season would have flowed better if they reversed the order of eps 4 and 5.  Because at the end of Patience, Dean flat out tells Sam he can't be around Jack.  So Sam coming to Dean and saying lets go on a case, just me and you would have showed he heard and understood where Dean was coming from.  I get the writers were trying to show Sam doing something nice for Dean, and it was good to see, but the biggest problem is the timing.    Sam showed sympathy or empathy for Dean only after he got his way with Jack and Dean gave in.

Unfortunately, it looks more like Sam giving Dean a reward for behaving rather than a genuine effort.

Given what we learn about Dean and his mental state, it also puts his actions with Jack in a different perspective.  (I'm not saying it makes them right, just more understandable. 

As for the morning scene, I agree this is where a director needs to step in.  I get that JA and JP have a lot of liberty and at this point they should, but sometimes it just doesn't work. 

I think a better way to handle it would be Sam waking up and Dean is sitting by the computer, with hentai or busty asian beauties playing and Dean staring through the screen, kind of like he was in ep 3.  Have a bottle of booze barely touched.  Imagine how much more concerning it would be for Sam, and the audience, if we see that booze isn't even helping to dull the pain Dean is feeling. 

My head canon, is a theory I saw on Tumblr.  That Dean staged the whole thing., (except the drinking)  He put the tie around his head, the shoe and flogger, and laid on the floor to make Sam think he went out, when in reality he never left the room.  (It makes as much sense as anything).

[gonzosgirrl]

@ILoveReading I wish I could like your post more than once. I agree with all of it. 

[MysteryGuest]

I still think the scene was primarily written for humor.  If the writers were intending it to be a serious scene about Dean's state of mind, or Sam's frustration with Dean, they wouldn't have left the humor in, even if Jensen played it up during shooting.  I think they'd have re-shot.  It was a sight gag, IMO, nothing more.  

I also agree with whoever said that Dean probably went out for a drink shortly after they got settled in the hotel.  And since we know that Sam really doesn't enjoy strip clubs, I don't see why Dean would have dragged him along.    But I don't think he snuck out after Sam went to sleep.  I think Sam was mainly surprised to see that Dean's bed hadn't been slept in, and wondered initially if he'd even come back to the hotel.  Then he heard/saw him on the floor.  

I know Jensen likes the over-the-top comedy sometimes, but he's also on record for not really enjoying the food scenes he's been forced to play ever since that mini hotdog scene.  I think he made that into a funny scene, and it's now just a standard go to for the show.

Edited November 15, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My head canon, is a theory I saw on Tumblr.  That Dean staged the whole thing., (except the drinking)  He put the tie around his head, the shoe and flogger, and laid on the floor to make Sam think he went out, when in reality he never left the room.  (It makes as much sense as anything).

Hey! I had a similar thought. I thought I was wackadoodle but I feel like maybe that could be it.

Quoting myself:

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Or it was all a put on for Sam because he had gone out to off himself, changed his mind and came back but needed Sam to think he had been out doing debauchery rather than contemplating using Dr. Roberts Emergency Kit.

[Jynnan tonnix]

17 hours ago, SueB said:

On a shallow note: Sam look GOOD in that FBI suit. His shoulder to hips ratio was particularly outstanding. Also Dean freckles -- I love it when they let Jensen's freckles show

Actually, I loved and agreed with your whole post, but there were so many bolded bits that I had to cut it down to make a point. And, honestly, this whole episode was good enough that I really should write a more comprehensive post...but...shallow I am, and shallow I probably always will be, and I swear that Jensen's freckles were one of the first things that got me to pay enough attention to this show from day one, and enough to keep me hanging around for long enough to get hooked on the entire thing. That and his profile (which to this day I go back and watch frame by frame in scenes like that last one where Dean was telling Sam about Billie, etc)...and his mouth, and his eyes, and his teeth...Damn. Sometimes I don't have more than a inch's worth of depth to me for an entire episode.

[SueB]

@Jynnan tonnix   Pssst. I was fortunate enough to sit literally right next to him this past weekend.  As in knees touching. It was 11 people squeezed around a round table. I surreptitiously stared at that face almost the whole time. Often in profile.  I felt it was my duty to once and for all time truly understand the color of his eyes.  So many photoshopped pictures, the eye colors shift (even more than normal for Hazel eyes).  And yes they are hazel with green being clearly dominant, brown next and flecks of blue (no kidding).  For science!   

[Pondlass1]

Did he smell good too?  Everyone says he smells good.  (Sorry wrong thread... I know)

[Bergamot]

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I super-miss Kim Manners. Because I believe he wouldn`t have left stuff in his episodes he didn`t want in AND the actors, including J2, would have respected him far too much to make a fuzz. 

The scene just didn`t gel with the rest of the episode. Dean is dead inside and Sam`s plan to ply him with creature comforts obviously won`t work. So why show him like a pathetic buffoon on the floor who is so shallow obviously creature comforts are all that`s needed to satisfy those two brain cells? Sam is tryng to super-nice to the point that it only becomes super-weird but the second it looks like his silly plan actually IS working, he looks annoyed at "Dean the plebe".

Pick a theme and stick with it. Dean is depressed until he gets his win with Cas and Sam is trying to be supportive, using stuff that can`t work. This is what the episode showed us, it should have been kept consistent and not broken for an obnoxious bit on "comedy".        

 

 I agree, Aeryn, and I had the same thought when I saw the episode: if this was what Sam was trying for, why did he seem annoyed by the result? It felt as if he was, well, to say judgmental would be too strong, but it did feel to me as if he was looking down on Dean for what he viewed as his pathetic coping strategy. It was a missed opportunity too; if they felt like the episode needed a lighter moment, I think it would have been good to have Sam say something to himself, ruefully but affectionately, about how okay, this is what I was aiming for, but maybe I should be careful what I wished for. Because if that is what the show intended, I'm afraid that for me they missed the mark.

As for the discussion as to whether Dean is suicidal, I like that it is kind of a complex question. I don't think that he is actively seeking his own death, but that he would welcome it if it happened. The fact is though that we have seen Dean suicidal before -- the first instance that springs to my mind is the end of Croatoan -- but I think what we see in his conversation with Billie is a Dean we have never seen before, and that is pretty amazing after all these years and all that we have seen Dean go through.

Whenever we have previously seen Dean facing off against a supernatural opponent of vastly superior power, as he does here with Billie, he is always incredibly brave and defiant, determined to go out fighting and with one more smartass remark. Think of Azazel and Uriel and Alastair and Abbadon. But at the same time you can always see how vulnerable he is underneath, how their threats penetrate and affect him, even as he tries to pretend they don't. Because if there is one word that can be used to describe Dean, it is vulnerable -- everything gets to him, he feels everything.

What we see in the scene with Billie is a different Dean, and I think that Jensen does a brilliant job here and it is why I keep wanting to re-watch it. Dean is no longer vulnerable. Nothing Billie says can get to him or bother him. Look at his body language, the way he stands there so still, not on guard or ready to fight, just waiting. He responds to her either with a brief, dry comment, or merely by saying "hmm" -- and sometimes just with silence and a slight smile. He is not protecting himself or trying to shield his vulnerability. He is just completely burned out. He is totally over it all, and as a result we see something never seen before: an invulnerable Dean!

I mean, even Demon Dean had his needs -- to be entertained, to use and hurt people -- and buttons that could be pushed. The Dean we see in this scene with Billie has been pushed too far and no longer cares. A Dean who no longer cares, who is impervious, seems unthinkable. Like an anti-Dean. No wonder that the Universe, as represented by Billie, is baffled by him: "You've changed."

Of course, with the return of Cas, it seems that Dean will start to care again. Order restored to the Universe! Tragically, of course, this also means that Dean is back to being vulnerable, and is once again wide open to being hurt.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 And Sam is not shown in a very nice light, just walking out like that.

I thought that was a very nice thing of Sam to do.  Someone mentioned upthread that strip clubs close at 2am...that depends on the state/county/etc you're in.  In some places,, they stay open until 4am am or later, so Dean could have been out quite late.  Or early.  I seem to recall something about them having an interview or meeting that morning, which is where Sam was headed, so sure he could have woken up Dean to go to this meeting with him - they were still on a case after all - and Dean would have felt like crap.  And probably looked and smelled like crap and not been much help anyway.  But instead Sam left him to sleep a few hours longer.  How is this not a nice thing for Sam to do?  All I know is if that had been me passed out drunk on the floor, I would have been very grateful for the extra shut eye.  ::shrug::  To each their own though. 

ETA: I thought Sam's exasperation stemmed from solely the fact that Dean knew they had a meeting and was going to miss it.  Like I said, they were still on a case after all. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Diane]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought that was a very nice thing of Sam to do.  Someone mentioned upthread that strip clubs close at 2am...that depends on the state/county/etc you're in.  In some places,, they stay open until 4am am or later, so Dean could have been out quite late.  Or early.  I seem to recall something about them having an interview or meeting that morning, which is where Sam was headed, so sure he could have woken up Dean to go to this meeting with him - they were still on a case after all - and Dean would have felt like crap.  And probably looked and smelled like crap and not been much help anyway.  But instead Sam left him to sleep a few hours longer.  How is this not a nice thing for Sam to do?  All I know is if that had been me passed out drunk on the floor, I would have been very grateful for the extra shut eye.  ::shrug::  To each their own though. 

Agreed

[Aeryn13]

Quote

if this was what Sam was trying for, why did he seem annoyed by the result?

I have no idea. He should have been fist-pumping at the idea that his plan seemed to be working against all logic and reason. Earlier in the episode he seemed to want something like exactly this, in the middle of a case and all. And then when it happened, he was "urgh" about it. Then, in the next scene, he switched back to seemingly wanting it back again. 

This was just a scene I would have cut in its entirety.   

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 

 I agree, Aeryn, and I had the same thought when I saw the episode: if this was what Sam was trying for, why did he seem annoyed by the result? It felt as if he was, well, to say judgmental would be too strong, but it did feel to me as if he was looking down on Dean for what he viewed as his pathetic coping strategy. It was a missed opportunity too; if they felt like the episode needed a lighter moment, I think it would have been good to have Sam say something to himself, ruefully but affectionately, about how okay, this is what I was aiming for, but maybe I should be careful what I wished for. Because if that is what the show intended, I'm afraid that for me they missed the mark.

As for the discussion as to whether Dean is suicidal, I like that it is kind of a complex question. I don't think that he is actively seeking his own death, but that he would welcome it if it happened. The fact is though that we have seen Dean suicidal before -- the first instance that springs to my mind is the end of Croatoan -- but I think what we see in his conversation with Billie is a Dean we have never seen before, and that is pretty amazing after all these years and all that we have seen Dean go through.

Whenever we have previously seen Dean facing off against a supernatural opponent of vastly superior power, as he does here with Billie, he is always incredibly brave and defiant, determined to go out fighting and with one more smartass remark. Think of Azazel and Uriel and Alastair and Abbadon. But at the same time you can always see how vulnerable he is underneath, how their threats penetrate and affect him, even as he tries to pretend they don't. Because if there is one word that can be used to describe Dean, it is vulnerable -- everything gets to him, he feels everything.

What we see in the scene with Billie is a different Dean, and I think that Jensen does a brilliant job here and it is why I keep wanting to re-watch it. Dean is no longer vulnerable. Nothing Billie says can get to him or bother him. Look at his body language, the way he stands there so still, not on guard or ready to fight, just waiting. He responds to her either with a brief, dry comment, or merely by saying "hmm" -- and sometimes just with silence and a slight smile. He is not protecting himself or trying to shield his vulnerability. He is just completely burned out. He is totally over it all, and as a result we see something never seen before: an invulnerable Dean!

I mean, even Demon Dean had his needs -- to be entertained, to use and hurt people -- and buttons that could be pushed. The Dean we see in this scene with Billie has been pushed too far and no longer cares. A Dean who no longer cares, who is impervious, seems unthinkable. Like an anti-Dean. No wonder that the Universe, as represented by Billie, is baffled by him: "You've changed."

Of course, with the return of Cas, it seems that Dean will start to care again. Order restored to the Universe! Tragically, of course, this also means that Dean is back to being vulnerable, and is once again wide open to being hurt.

It will be interesting to see how Dean handles this. I feel like another shoe is  going to drop for Dean wrt to Cas.

Presuming Cas is Cas and not the Empty doppelganger, I'm trying to sort out Cas expression with Dean. To me he looked both relieved to see Dean and also rueful. He didn't look all that happy per se. I felt like there is something else lurking.  I'm still speculating this is a temporary arrangement for Cas. That he made the bargain with Empty!Cas to come back temporarily to kill Lucifer and make sure Jack doesn't go dark side and to have a longer goodbye.

Now if his memory has been messed with and he doesn't know where he is or how he got there that could be his expression. 

Since Cas' body was burned how can he be back in his body? Did the Empty agree to create a version out of the ooze he was sleeping in to Cas' specification? Hence the new old coat and tie?

 Are angels sent to the Empty in the vessel they died in? If so, maybe there are 4 versions of Cas and he picked the one he wanted to go back in? (Good way to bring back other angels.)

Could the angel who was friendly towards Cas in 13.1 take his body from the table and replace it with a doppelganger body to keep on ice to give him an angel approved farewell?

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since Cas' body was burned how can he be back in his body? Did the Empty agree to create a version out of the ooze he was sleeping in to Cas' specification? Hence the new old coat and tie?

Jimmy's body is just a construct that god-like beings can apparently recreate at will. The brothers should know this after the numerous times that that body has been completely obliterated and disintegrated to the the atomic level. It's who's occupying the shell that should be their first concern and likely will be-again, at first. Dean's expression at the end conveyed that, IMO. Not sure what kind of tests they can do to ascertain the absolute truth, though.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Myrelle

[SueB]

@Pondlass1 I didn’t inhale.  

[JanetWaldo]

Good episode.  Good, creepy monster.  I loved Sam's attempts to help cheer Dean up.  I love that he tried, at least.  I'm not crazy about the two hypodermics now being a part of Dean’s regular toolkit like iron bars and salt rounds. 

[takalotti]

Wait. There’s a movie with time traveling ferrets? Where has this been my whole life?!?! Thank you, Sam!

 

Not the most critical nit pick ever, but I think it was a little sloppy to be handing over a badge out in the open. Why would real FBI agents ever need to do that? Keep that kinda stuff in the car, boys.

 

After they left Shawn's house and pulled up to the hotel, my closed captioning said "Baby purring" ???

 

In discussing the morning scene with Dean on the floor, there were comments about Sam stepping over Dean (the tone I read in those posts made me believe the posters felt it was disrespectful for Sam to do this). But the placement of the bed, bathroom, door, and Dean wouldn’t have Sam trying to step of Dean for anything that I could see.

 

Okay, so ghosts can’t cross salt lines, got it. But they can pass through stuff like doors and walls. Okay. But then why do salt lines only need to be drawn at doors and windows? When the doctor came part way through the door and got held up by the salt line, why not just go 2 feet over and walk through the wall instead? And is this the first time a ghost blew away a salt line? Sure is a handy trick for a ghost to have!

 

I thought this episode had the nicest version of forcing a talk that I can remember. When Sam was asking Dean what happened, he didn’t push, he nudged (pointing out things like the ghosts all being gone before they could go to the bodies). There was no yelling confrontation to make one talk or to make the other stop asking. Just level "We can talk about it later," "We won’t talk about it later, you know that."

 

Dean: You know, my whole life I always believed that what we do was important. No matter what the cost, no matter who we lost, whether it was Dad or Bobby or .... And I would take the hit. But I kept on fighting. Because I believed. That we were making the world a better place. And now Mom, and Cas, and I don’t know. I don’t know.

 

So at the ... it seemed like Dean was going to say another name but couldn’t bring himself to say it. Thoughts on who it might be? At first I assumed it was Cas (much like he couldn’t finish saying "Cas is dead" in 13.01, but that doesn’t fit with the "timeline" of what he was describing. Unless he was talking about one of the other times Cas died, like when he walked into the reservoir and Dean kept his trench coat. 

 

I thought Cas' face at the end made sense. He died looking at Sam and Dean, thinking he’d never see them again. He woke up in the Empty feeling lost and cut off, wanting nothing more than to get back to the Winchesters and not knowing how. He came back to Earth and must have had to wander around for a while before he could manage to call them. And here they were again. Just looked like he was overwhelmed with gratitude for something he didn’t think he’d have again. Though I can see there being the possibility that his return has conditions (like he has to go back after a time) we don’t know about, since he and EmptyCas could have talked more before he got sent back.

Edited December 14, 2017 by takalotti

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, takalotti said:

And is this the first time a ghost blew away a salt line? Sure is a handy trick for a ghost to have!

It's definitely not the first time. First one that came to mind was The Mentalists and Dean commenting something to the effect of, "I hate it when they do that." ;)

I believe Jo also did it earlier in the season. I know there's more, but can't think of any right now. Seems like this ability--other than being convenient to the plot--has to do with how powerful they are.

Edited December 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

So, how is it that Cas is in his meatsuit after the boys burned it in 13.01?

How did it get recreated? Did the Empty Entity give him his form? Did he make him a new one? Is there some other version of Cas that was floating around the Empty that he let Cas use?