S03.E02: Freakshow

[Sakura12]

I think it would be more interesting if Gary was working for Mallus. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But once again he withheld the full truth to put his new team together. I wouldn't be surprised if Rip created the Time Masters through forming the Time Bureau. 

Ì had almost forgotten he spun some yarn to originally get the Legends together. And unfortunately, yes, he kinda did create exactly the kind of uptight, "by the book" organization who would turn away a guy like Season 1-Rip begging for the lives of his family. To be honest, that should bite him in the ass at some point. 

Quote

Except Rip didn't want his Bureau to admire or especially to emulate the people who broke Time, so he deliberately cast them as people who couldn't be trusted to clean up spilled milk, much less aberrations in Time. 

But even when he talked privately with them for brief moments, I felt he was at best disinterested and glib. I think his comment, insult, to Sara about the chainsaw was purposefully cruel. The way he disbanded them on the spot in the Premiere? Wow, and not in a good way. Right now I`m deeply disappointed in the character.  

And here we see how the TB agents aren`t all they`re hyped to be. The dude they captured was a joke and Agent Bitchy isn`t as cool as she believes herself to be. Even with the Legends being doofuses, the TB doesn`t look all that good in comparism.

With Nate, IMO, they are going overboard right now into carricature territory. I think the character would have potential if they focused a lot more on the historian aspect, dialed back on the dude bro mentality as well as the dumb moments, let awkward romance plots rest and just tried to round out the character somewhat emotionally more. He appears far more shallow right now than the character`s backstory would warrant.     

[Sakura12]

I think Gideon proved we don't need a "historian" (which is what I will continue to call Nate until they show me otherwise). Gideon gave us the info on PT Barnum. While Nate was acting like a 15 year old. I don't think they care about his previous job anymore, he's now the star spangled idiot. (copyright Mick). 

Plus an AI giving historical  or future exposition makes more sense and is less annoying since she is there to give information. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Sakura12

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think Gideon proved we don't need a "historian" (which is what I will continue to call Nate until they show me otherwise). Gideon gave us the info on PT Barnum. While Nate was acting like a 15 year old. I don't think they care about his previous job anymore, he's now the star spangled idiot. (copyright Mick). 

Plus an AI giving historical  or future exposition makes more sense and is less annoying since she is there to give information. 

I think they need to take the idiot ball away from all the Legends, especially Nate.  As for Nate as the historian, they should refocus on that.  Gideon can give facts about the time period and whatever anomaly is involved, but Nate can give insights into the people, their customs and their mindset.  Like Gideon would mention, "You'll be in Germany in 1332."  While Nate can point out.  "This is medieval Europe.  While you're there, you'll need to walk this way."

Edited October 19, 2017 by johntfs

[kismet]

4 hours ago, KirkB said:

Me neither. This comes from the online animated series, yes? I tried watching it once but the CW site and I didn't get along. Are they assuming everyone watching the actual TV show will have watched what is essentially supplemental material, or do you think they will explain it on screen?

Well I'm probably never going to watch Vixen online, its just not something I'm interested in seeing. I've had quite a few years to tune and have not bothered too, a few new characters on LoT aren't going to change that. So I hope they explain it... but if they don't I'll just go with whatever headspace works for me using the context clues. Villain with complicated back story was where I went with the woman from the water.

[kismet]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm sure they will explain who Kuasa is. Amaya is going to be fighting her own granddaughter. I guess Gideon didn't let her know her daughter had 2 kids Kuasa and Mari. That will make it more personal for her. She's scared of her powers, seeing that one of her granddaughter's is evil will show her what she has the possibility of becoming. 

However this would make Amaya safe since Kuasa wouldn't want to erase her own existence. 

This just feels like a repeat of Eobard and his heirs. And that turned out not so well for my personal enjoyment of the Flarrowverse as it eliminated one of my favorite characters. I hope it's something a little better than female Cain & Abel, but I can see where your theory is leading. I also think it would not protect Amaya, but rather give the writers a "good" reason to cut her from the show. I'm just getting very suspicious of the LoT writers they are pulling too much from the mistakes of the other Flarrowverse shows. I'm not opposed to your theory, I just worry where it will lead. Somehow when the Flarrowverse writers try to keep the drama all in the family to promote more personal drama, it never turns out well.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think it would be more interesting if Gary was working for Mallus. 

I think that would greatly degrade my opinion of Mallus (Really?  You're allowing this putz into your Evil Club?  That's just sad, man.)

[Sakura12]

It could be an act. No one would suspect Gary of being a mole. 

[KirkB]

See, if I were going that route, then Gary would BE Mallus.

[kismet]

Taking it to spoilers & speculations regarding Mallus.

[Barlowe]

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think Gideon proved we don't need a "historian" (which is what I will continue to call Nate until they show me otherwise). Gideon gave us the info on PT Barnum. While Nate was acting like a 15 year old. I don't think they care about his previous job anymore, he's now the star spangled idiot. (copyright Mick). 

Plus an AI giving historical  or future exposition makes more sense and is less annoying since she is there to give information. 

The Librarians is similar to LOT and they have an American bro-type character with a vast knowledge of history and he regularly helps the team out with historical knowledge. Every time I watch Nate, it's like a poor man's version of that character.

[Sakura12]

18 minutes ago, Lilacly said:

The Librarians is similar to LOT and they have an American bro-type character with a vast knowledge of history and he regularly helps the team out with historical knowledge. Every time I watch Nate, it's like a poor man's version of that character.

If Nate actually helped with his historical knowledge I'd be fine with it. So far he's been next to useless in that department. I just don't think the writers care that he's a historian anymore now that they can play with their good looking frat boy character. They didn't even give us a reason on why Nate and Amaya are together besides that they like having sex with each other. Which is completely fine if that's what it was. But that also means I can't buy Nate being all upset that Amaya broke up with him since they gave us no depth to their relationship. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The Librarians is similar to LOT and they have an American bro-type character with a vast knowledge of history and he regularly helps the team out with historical knowledge. Every time I watch Nate, it's like a poor man's version of that character.

Librarians have a much more clearly drawn areas of expertise for each character (Cassandra with magic, Stone with knowledge and Jones with clever thieving) and value the cerebral contributions as much if not a lot more than the physical ones.

Legends seem to focus mostly on badassery and in terms of smarts tactical and improvisational skills. Stein and Ray are both genius scientists and that has fallen by the wayside. I think once Nate became "Steel", the writers forgot about the historian aspect of him. Trouble is, there are other superheroes on the team so being Steel isn`t enough to differentiate himself that way. Being the historian on away missions could be the niche noone yet fills. 

Instead they differentiate Nate right now by making him act really dumb and shallow, much more so than last year. I think it is doing a disservice to this character.    

[MissLucas]

Ack! Nate has nothing on Jacob Stone!

I was confused about the scene of Barnum shooting him repeatedly - it was played like a torture scene. So does deflecting bullets actually affect him negatively? Or drain him of his power so that there was an increased risk of getting shot? I never noticed that before but then I do not pay too much attention to the character.

[Barlowe]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Ack! Nate has nothing on Jacob Stone!

I was confused about the scene of Barnum shooting him repeatedly - it was played like a torture scene. So does deflecting bullets actually affect him negatively? Or drain him of his power so that there was an increased risk of getting shot? I never noticed that before but then I do not pay too much attention to the character.

I agree. Nate could be as useful and well written as Jacob but they purposely chose to erase that aspect of his character and amp up the dumb frat boy made of stee aspect l.

[HunterHunted]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:32 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Librarians have a much more clearly drawn areas of expertise for each character (Cassandra with magic, Stone with knowledge and Jones with clever thieving) and value the cerebral contributions as much if not a lot more than the physical ones.

Legends seem to focus mostly on badassery and in terms of smarts tactical and improvisational skills. Stein and Ray are both genius scientists and that has fallen by the wayside. I think once Nate became "Steel", the writers forgot about the historian aspect of him. Trouble is, there are other superheroes on the team so being Steel isn`t enough to differentiate himself that way. Being the historian on away missions could be the niche noone yet fills. 

Instead they differentiate Nate right now by making him act really dumb and shallow, much more so than last year. I think it is doing a disservice to this character.    

I think because LoT focuses so much on physicality, they ignore the characters knowledge skills. We have:

• Sarah who is an assassin and leader
• Mick who is a thief and a thug
• Jax who is a mechanic and superpowered
• Stein who is a physicist and mathematician and superpowered 
• Ray who is an engineer and inventor with a super suit
• Amaya who is knowledgeable about animals and superpowered 
• Nate is a historian and superpowered

If the show stopped for a second, they'd realize that they have far too many engineering types. Nate is a nominal historian. Sarah should be far more knowledgeable about combat medicine and poisons because she's an assassin. That leaves Mick. I'd like the show to remember what Mick was like when he was hanging with Ray. Mick was sort of a scumbag anthropologist. He was really good at helping the team fit in with dirtbags. They haven't had too many missions like that, but I wish they would remember how good Mick is at that kind of thing. And frankly, watching Ray and Stein trying to fit in with bad guys is comedy gold.

6 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Ack! Nate has nothing on Jacob Stone!

I was confused about the scene of Barnum shooting him repeatedly - it was played like a torture scene. So does deflecting bullets actually affect him negatively? Or drain him of his power so that there was an increased risk of getting shot? I never noticed that before but then I do not pay too much attention to the character.

I thought it hurt because he was dehydrated and hungover, so it hurt to "steel up."

[immortalfrieza]

37 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

That leaves Mick. I'd like the show to remember what Mick was like when he was hanging with Ray. Mick was sort of a scumbag anthropologist. He was really good at helping the team fit in with dirtbags. They haven't had too many missions like that, but I wish they would remember how good Mick is at that kind of thing.

As I said in his character thread a long time ago, I still wish writers would remember that Mick spent years, decades, possibly even centuries as the Time Masters' own personal assassin and make use of that. Nate isn't the only one whose history and supposed skills has been blatantly ignored just so the writers can put them in the situations they WANT to put them in and give them personalities they WANT them to have, instead of what would actually make sense for the characters.

I'll second the rampant idiocy of this episode especially, and while I wouldn't say The Legends have NEVER been this insanely stupid before, it's definitely up there. It's not the "fun and funny" kind of stupid it usually is either, just the "completely retarded" kind of stupid. This would be yet another episode where we're supposed side with The Legends and pass the Time Bureau and their criticisms as just a bunch of jerks, yet the actions of the Legends in the actual episode has every one of those criticisms proven true, MULTIPLE TIMES.

[Ashand11]

This show kind of sucks without Snart Im not gonna lie. He was the only one on the team who had any competence and never once screwed up a mission.

[Sakura12]

Season 2 was great and Snart wasn't in it that often. So I can't say his loss is making the difference for me. I also like that his absence gave Mick a chance to shine. Mick has become his own person. 

I wish they would remember that Sara can make poisons and antidotes from plants from her time with Ivo then she probably became even more knowledgeable with league. I would love if Sara had a greenhouse on the Waverider, I'm sure Gideon can get her any type of plant she wants. 

They do need to give them roles on the ship. Only Sara the Captain and pilot and Jax the mechanic have roles. Ray can be the inventor, inventing new things to help them like he did with shrink ray. Mick and Amaya can be the soldier/guards meaning they should be the ones to go out with Sara to case wherever they are. If Nate remembers he's a historian not a dumb frat boy he can go with them. Stein is the one they go to when they need a mathematical solution. I guess they don't need a doctor since Gideon can regrow limbs. They might  all need basic field training when they are not near the ship. 

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Season 2 was great and Snart wasn't in it that often. So I can't say his loss is making the difference for me. I also like that his absence gave Mick a chance to shine. Mick has become his own person. 

I do miss Snart, because WM was so much fun to watch, but you're right. The show is perfectly capable of surviving without him. Especially considering how much they have developed Mick. One of the potential hazards of an ensemble show they seem to be falling into is not wanting every week to be so 'big' they need the group as a whole so they keep breaking them up (for example regularly separating Stein and Jax, which makes no sense) and then focus so much  screen time on characters they may be particularly enamored of but who are, IMO, less interesting, like Nate.

Edited October 22, 2017 by KirkB

[lurker22]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Season 2 was great and Snart wasn't in it that often. So I can't say his loss is making the difference for me. I also like that his absence gave Mick a chance to shine. Mick has become his own person. 

I wish they would remember that Sara can make poisons and antidotes from plants from her time with Ivo then she probably became even more knowledgeable with league. I would love if Sara had a greenhouse on the Waverider, I'm sure Gideon can get her any type of plant she wants. 

Stein is the one they go to when they need a mathematical solution. I guess they don't need a doctor since Gideon can regrow limbs. They might  all need basic field training when they are not near the ship. 

I was actually annoyed with the way Snart drags out his words at times, so I don't miss him much. But I do enjoy his snarkiness.

I completely agree that they should bring back Sara's knowledge of poisons and antidotes and blood disorders. They've showcased that knowledge she picked up from Ivo and the League a few times on Arrow, and this is a skill that could actually help in their missions.

Stein is actually their go-to doctor whenever Gideon is down. Who else could the team turn to when they need someone to perform brain surgery or bullet removals?

[immortalfrieza]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

I do miss Snart, because WM was so much fun to watch, but you're right. The show is perfectly capable of surviving without him. Especially considering how much they have developed Mick. One of the potential hazards of an ensemble show they seem to be falling into is not wanting every week to be so 'big' they need the group as a whole so they keep breaking them up (for example regularly separating Stein and Jax, which makes no sense) and then focus so much  screen time on characters they may be particularly enamored of but who are, IMO, less interesting, like Nate.

What I think they should do is now that the group is handling a crapton of aberations have the group split up to take care of different ones every episode.  Have say... Sara, Stein, Jax, and Mick take care of aberation A,  and Amaya, Nate, and Ray take care of Aberation B, or whatever combinations thereof. That way not only will EVERYBODY have to be competent for the plot to work that way, at least reasonable so, the writers can tailor the plot to each particular group so they will have to make effective use of everyone and won't have to constantly sideline or incapacitate half the team or just not have them use their powers for no reason to make the plot work. It would also handle the issue of the whole lot of redundancy in the group, I mean we've got like 4 fighters including 2 with super strength and 2 genius guys with 1 who is supposed be a lot smarter than the show makes him out to be (Nate) so they have to keep coming up with asinine excuses to avoid using several members of the team and/or avoid using their powers every episode.

Edited October 22, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Ashand11]

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Season 2 was great and Snart wasn't in it that often. So I can't say his loss is making the difference for me. I also like that his absence gave Mick a chance to shine. Mick has become his own person. 

I wish they would remember that Sara can make poisons and antidotes from plants from her time with Ivo then she probably became even more knowledgeable with league. I would love if Sara had a greenhouse on the Waverider, I'm sure Gideon can get her any type of plant she wants. 

They do need to give them roles on the ship. Only Sara the Captain and pilot and Jax the mechanic have roles. Ray can be the inventor, inventing new things to help them like he did with shrink ray. Mick and Amaya can be the soldier/guards meaning they should be the ones to go out with Sara to case wherever they are. If Nate remembers he's a historian not a dumb frat boy he can go with them. Stein is the one they go to when they need a mathematical solution. I guess they don't need a doctor since Gideon can regrow limbs. They might  all need basic field training when they are not near the ship. 

 I didn't really like season 2. The plot line wasn't bad but Amaya and Nate are terrible characters and Snart wasn't part of the team so it did nothing for me.  At least Snarts character was interesting. Most of the characters on the show now are super bland. The only reason I keep watching is to see what they do with Snarts character. Killing him off was a terrible move because now they try to use him in this show and the Flash but its totally unbelievable and just doesnt work really.

[Starfish35]

I finally got around to watching this, and I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would.  I suppose that's what comes of having rock-bottom expectations.

That said, I hope this is the season low point, because watching the team bumble around like idiots, screw things up worse, get scolded by Ava, then pull out a victory at the last minute is a formula that is going to get very old, very fast.  

Nate can leave anytime now.   Seriously.  

And I wish Sara had totally kicked Ava's ass rather than them fighting to a draw, implying she's just as good as Sara. I am so not here for the inevitable pair up between those two.  *sigh*   I did like that Gideon doesn't like Ava though.  You and me both, Gideon.  

[Ashand11]

2 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I finally got around to watching this, and I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would.  I suppose that's what comes of having rock-bottom expectations.

That said, I hope this is the season low point, because watching the team bumble around like idiots, screw things up worse, get scolded by Ava, then pull out a victory at the last minute is a formula that is going to get very old, very fast.  

Nate can leave anytime now.   Seriously.  

And I wish Sara had totally kicked Ava's ass rather than them fighting to a draw, implying she's just as good as Sara. I am so not here for the inevitable pair up between those two.  *sigh*   I did like that Gideon doesn't like Ava though.  You and me both, Gideon.  

Sarah is supposed to be apart of a select group that has the level of skill that she has. The fact that they made that girl equal to her in skill is a joke

[Sakura12]

I'm just going to fanwank that Sara was holding back because she wasn't trying to kill her. Like she did with Huntress on Arrow. During their second fight the Huntress didn't stand a chance. 

Although I do wish they skipped the water break and just had the saber tooth tiger interrupt their fight instead. 

I really hope they tone down the idiocy. There's a difference between being screw ups and being complete morons. 

[mac123x]

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm just going to fanwank that Sara was holding back because she wasn't trying to kill her. Like she did with Huntress on Arrow. During their second fight the Huntress didn't stand a chance. 

Although I do wish they skipped the water break and just had the saber tooth tiger interrupt their fight instead. 

Aww, I was coming here to say that I thought that scene was hilarious.  I enjoy LoT when they embrace the absurdity, and that was basically a satirical take on a standard fight scene.

[kismet]

I also thought that Sara may be out of practice. She doesn't really have anyone to spar with. So I think she held back because she did not want to hurt Ava. But my back-up fanwank is her being a little out of shape. Fantasies are great, but I doubt she got a lot of hand to hand combat is the Sheets & Things store.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

First off, the episode.  Maybe took some of the antics and 'squee! the circus' bits a little too far, but I do appreciate that the show sticks to - mostly - what it does best;  keeps things light and cheery.  Good to see Amaya back on the Waverider.  Not the biggest fan of A/N, but I like her friendship with everyone.  I loved that little bit at the end where Sara starts out all serious about there being a big threat out there that Rip feels that they need to be careful of, but then everyone busts up laughing and saying what could be worse than already faced problems.  THAT scene (to me) is what makes this show its own unique thing, while being tied in to the overall CW-Flarrowverse.  It acknowledges and embraces its camp.

I have, in the last few days, binged all the available [to date] epsiodes and am up to date for (later) tonight's new ep.  That said?  Personally, I'd have rather seen them kept Snart instead of bringing in Nate, but the overall team and such keep the show enjoyable.

Edited October 28, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[kismet]

6 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I have, in the last few days, binged all the available [to date] epsiodes and am up to date for (later) tonight's new ep.  That said?  Personally, I'd have rather seen them kept Snart instead of bringing in Nate, but the overall team and such keep the show enjoyable.

From your binging, it seems that you might be new to the show. The actor that played Snart wanted off the show as a regular or even a recurring. He seemed to be only willing to do a few guest bits. He wanted to leave and there was little choice but to write him out of the show. I personally think the writers & TPTB, and most of the fandom would have wanted to keep Snart around as well. 

Not sure if Nate would have been brought in if Snart was still around, perhaps he still might have been introduced. Personally, I've never considered Nate as a replacement for Snart. I feel like the writers would have brought him onto the show even if Snart was still around. The business end of the industry is why we lost Snart. I can't hold losing Snart against Nate's character or introduction. The issues I have with Nate are independent of losing Snart. I do feel bad that a lot of people will compare Snart & Nate, or somehow think that one is the direct result of the other leaving. Nate may be many things, but I don't think he was ever intended as a Snart replacement.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

12 hours ago, kismet said:

From your binging, it seems that you might be new to the show. The actor that played Snart wanted off the show as a regular or even a recurring. He seemed to be only willing to do a few guest bits. He wanted to leave and there was little choice but to write him out of the show. I personally think the writers & TPTB, and most of the fandom would have wanted to keep Snart around as well. 

Not sure if Nate would have been brought in if Snart was still around, perhaps he still might have been introduced. Personally, I've never considered Nate as a replacement for Snart. I feel like the writers would have brought him onto the show even if Snart was still around. The business end of the industry is why we lost Snart. I can't hold losing Snart against Nate's character or introduction. The issues I have with Nate are independent of losing Snart. I do feel bad that a lot of people will compare Snart & Nate, or somehow think that one is the direct result of the other leaving. Nate may be many things, but I don't think he was ever intended as a Snart replacement.

I don't see Nate as a replacement for Snart - exactly - but I'm not much of a fan of the Nate character as a whole, if I'm brutally honest.  I understand his place on the team, being the historian and human shield when he 'steels on', but despite his chronological age, its like watching a 'young, still maturing kid' in the way he behaves in most situations, especially with Amaya. 

A character can be funny without also being (or at least, acting) immature.

[SyncMaster]

On 10/22/2017 at 7:34 PM, Starfish35 said:

And I wish Sara had totally kicked Ava's ass rather than them fighting to a draw, implying she's just as good as Sara. I am so not here for the inevitable pair up between those two.  *sigh*   I did like that Gideon doesn't like Ava though.  You and me both, Gideon.  

 

On 10/23/2017 at 1:23 PM, mac123x said:

Aww, I was coming here to say that I thought that scene was hilarious.  I enjoy LoT when they embrace the absurdity, and that was basically a satirical take on a standard fight scene.

Yes, indeed it was, especially when Ava and Sara knocked one another to the ground--

Ava: Do you want to take a break?

Sara: I could use some water.

 

My favorite scene with Sara though was, after traveling thousand of miles across the planet and seven decades into the past to get Amaya, greeting her with, "Hey, girrrllll..."