S04.E02: I'm Not Her

[Milaxx]

19 hours ago, secnarf said:

Sorry I meant they could do a time jump afterwards - between the two halves of the season - to skip over the baby's NICU stay.

Although, like everybody else, I highly doubt this baby is going to become a living character on this show. I'd say adoption or Laurel leaving the show to raise her baby are both highly optimistic options for this particular show, so I am fully expecting this baby to die one way or another. But the time jump comment was in response to the comment about how this show won't show a complicated first year of life for the baby. I agree, but realistically for a 32-weeker you are looking at a 4-6 week NICU stay unless there are additional complications (beyond just prematurity). It wouldn't be hard to do a two-month time jump after the baby is born, if that is what the writers decide to do.

I see. I guess the show could hand wave and have that happen over the mid season break. It doesn't work like that in the real world though. A baby born at 28 weeks isn't going to be developmentally the same at 32 weeks as a baby born at 32 weeks.  The trauma of the early birth and whatever medical intervention was done in order to help the baby survive can play a part.  I worked in NICU micro preemie outreach program. so I saw a lot of this first hand.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Milaxx

[secnarf]

37 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 But for Simon, it's clear his intentions to say these cruel things stem from his jealousy and envy that he wasn't part of the Keating 5 that bugs. Eh, the actor's good at making me annoyed at Simon, though I don't outright hate him because they're all just as bad, if not worse than, Simon. 

I think - and speaking only for myself - the reason I find Simon so much less likeable than the K5 is that he is intentionally being cruel, and totally unprovoked. With the K5, much of the awful things they have done have been reactionary, including the cruel things they have said to each other. So even though they have definitely done worse things than Simon (as far as we know), it feels more justifiable/sympathetic than cruelty for the sake of cruelty.

4 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I see. WI guess the show could hand wave and have that happen over the mid season break. It doesn't work like that in the real world though. A baby born at 28 weeks isn't going to be developmentally the same at 32 weeks as a baby born at 32 weeks.  The trauma of the early birth and whatever medical intervention was done in order to help the baby survive can play a part.  I worked in NICU micro preemie outreach program. so I saw a lot of this first hand.

I also work in an NICU - I think we just did our math differently. I was thinking that a baby born "two months early" is roughly 31-32 weeks gestationally (40 weeks subtract 8-9 weeks). I think you were multiplying 7 x 4 = 28 weeks; but months are longer than just 4 weeks so that ends up shortchanging the baby a bit.

[Keepitmoving]

Fuck Simon, that's all. I loved every bit of Michaela threatening him, mainly because I love Michaela and she was rightfully just sticking up for her man. I don't even truly hate Simon if I'm honest, I'm pretty indifferent to him because the guy hasn't even logged much screen time. Although, I think I should hate him after he pulled that stunt and put up Anna's picture all over campus with the word killer written across her face.  Look, for me, this is a show where you just might in fact end up siding with the killers if not the accessories to the killings and cover- ups. It's  just that kind of show, and Simon isn't even at the status of  Oliver yet in terms of his screen time for me to even consider comparing him to the Keating-5 now 4, please. What? He's supposed to be better than them because he hasn't committed any crimes and so it's good he's sticking it to them? I don't know that for sure, at least not yet, LOL. So again, fuck Simon.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

7 minutes ago, secnarf said:

I also work in an NICU - I think we just did our math differently. I was thinking that a baby born "two months early" is roughly 31-32 weeks gestationally (40 weeks subtract 8-9 weeks). I think you were multiplying 7 x 4 = 28 weeks; but months are longer than just 4 weeks so that ends up shortchanging the baby a bit.

I get you. I guess we'll have to wait and see which way the show goes. Like I said, if the show wanted to, they could have NICU baby at the midseason break then time jump post all that for the second half of the season.

14 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

I guess I'm in a very, very tiny minority that actually likes and enjoys Simon quite a bit.  He makes an excellent foil to the K4, I think, and when it comes right down to it, a lot of what he says about them isn't necessarily wrong or untrue.  I think it's wrong to get mad at him for speaking the truth about them.

Plus, he showed at Wes's funeral last season that he isn't completely without compassion or sympathy, so that's something redeemable about him.

So . . . yeah, whatever.  I don't mind the guy, and the actor's good, so that helps.

Simon makes a great foil for the K4, but as a character, he's trash. As others have mentioned he constantly goes for the jugular. His jealousy bordered on cruel and in AK's case pathological. Remember the posters he was putting up? That's not just harmless jabbing. Also at Wes's funeral he asks if AK did it and wonders why the K4 would till defend her.He then trash talks AK at his interview, but once again it's framed as being glad he's not one of the K4. Obviously he wanted very badly to be a AK intern.  

For me I find Simon interesting from a viewer standpoint. His character is there to antagonize the K4 due to his jealousy at not being in AK's inner circle, but I definitely see him as a one of the bad guys. He's just not scary bad like the Mahooneys or Laurel's dad. He's more like the annoying fly in the room.

2 hours ago, April Bloodgate said:

Any chance this is the empty building that Frank showed Bonnie as a potential office last ep?

That's an interesting point, I'll have to rewatch and check it out.

[HunterHunted]

13 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Simon makes a great foil for the K4, but as a character, he's trash. As others have mentioned he constantly goes for the jugular. His jealousy bordered on cruel and in AK's case pathological. Remember the posters he was putting up? That's not just harmless jabbing. Also at Wes's funeral he asks if AK did it and wonders why the K4 would till defend her.He then trash talks AK at his interview, but once again it's framed as being glad he's not one of the K4. Obviously he wanted very badly to be a AK intern.  

For me I find Simon interesting from a viewer standpoint. His character is there to antagonize the K4 due to his jealousy at not being in AK's inner circle, but I definitely see him as a one of the bad guys. He's just not scary bad like the Mahooneys or Laurel's dad. He's more like the annoying fly in the room.

A person who wasn't completely obsessed with Annalise's lying murder sex cult, wouldn't have put up those flyers or been part of her pro bono legal clinic. How many people had died in and around Annalise and the K4 by the time season 3 rolls around? It had to be a solid half dozen. And Simon still joins the clinic.

Edited October 8, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Milaxx]

Did a quick rewatch of episode 1 to see if where Laurel is was the offices Frank found. I took a screenshot. I don’t think it’s the same place. The offices Frank found had a window at the end of the corridor and the one in the flash forward has a wall. I also noticed the nurse taking Laurel’s pulse yells for someone to page Dr. Lee. I think it’s safe to safe Laurel is in some type of medical facility. I guess the question is whether she was there for a psychiatric break or a result of the pregnancy. 

[possibilities]

I don't get Simon at all. Why IS he so obsessed with them, anyway? It seems way too random for this show. He's been a recurring presence and he's never really been developed, nor has he had any particularly interesting consequence. The flyers were a red herring, but they've still kept him around. Is the actor someone's nephew or something, and they just want to keep him employed? I don't get it.

[Milaxx]

2 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I don't get Simon at all. Why IS he so obsessed with them, anyway? It seems way too random for this show. He's been a recurring presence and he's never really been developed, nor has he had any particularly interesting consequence. The flyers were a red herring, but they've still kept him around. Is the actor someone's nephew or something, and they just want to keep him employed? I don't get it.

I've been wondering just that. I keep wondering why he's still around unless it's just to be a constant fly in the ointment.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 10/5/2017 at 11:54 PM, possibilities said:

Legal question: can someone have their own record unsealed if they request it?

 I guess this lady's was just sealed juvenile and still in existence, but, it wouldn't be the type of thing that just any clerk could go pick up.  And, from the 1960's!  I doubt they even exist anymore.  No courthouse that I know has files from that long long ago, except land records.  And HOW did she get her hands on the sealed files of the white defendants who got different treatment by the DA? Too far out there, but, I'll buy into it.  It was a good story.  Good job, Annalise.   This lady will come back into the picture some day, imo.

What gets me is Asher.  OMG, his temper is still over the top.  Regardless of how someone provokes you, you don't blow up that way.  He's dangerous.  I'd steer clear of him.  

I don't know who takes the baby, but, I sure hoe they keep it away from this group of dangerous people. lol  This includes Laurel, her dad and the K groupl. 

[Empress1]

On 10/5/2017 at 11:43 PM, Apprentice79 said:

Her smackdown of Annalise at the beginning of the show was wonderful.  When she told her how pimps break down young vulnerable girls to submit to prostitution was chilling.  It was filled with rage, sadness, anger and shame.    L. Scott  Caldwell and Viola Davis were sublime in their scenes together..

Yes, they were wonderful together. When she was sitting in court listening to Annalise, she showed such a range of emotion on her face in really subtle ways. And then when the judge was talking to her and she wept, I welled up with her. (However, "And she lived happily every after" is unlikely without support.)

I said this when Jimmy Smits appeared on Sons of Anarchy and I'll say it now: he's old enough to be my father but he could get it. He's so hot.

I could not care less about Bonnie. I didn't like her when she was simpering and I don't like her now.

Loved the legal aid employer calling out Connor's white privilege.

[Black Knight]

On 10/6/2017 at 0:49 PM, harmfulhazards said:

Bonnie/Nate Annalise hate-fest is happening too early in the season to be anything other than red herring.

I agree. Plus Bonnie will never truly turn her back on Annalise no matter what she says. Annalise said it herself in the letter; Bonnie is defined by her sense of loyalty. Just look at this episode, where she says no to Annalise and shuts the door in her face...but then she goes and tells Frank, when she knows how Frank will do anything to get back into Annalise's good graces. That wasn't accidental. That was Bonnie giving Annalise what she wanted. It's just that unlike Frank she's gotten a teensy bit of pride. Or at least has figured out that the doormat routine is counterproductive with Annalise. (Plus she really couldn't do it in the office where Annalise approached her, anyway, given that she knows from Nate what everyone at the office thinks.) I also enjoyed Annalise just standing there staring at Bonnie for so long upon learning she's now an ADA. Oh, you two.

I also appreciated the show's nod to the fact that for umpteen years now Annalise has had a paid attorney in Bonnie and a revolving door of unpaid law students to do all the grunge work. As such she doesn't know where to file forms, doesn't have relationships with any of the courthouse employees, and hasn't yet learned how to plan her schedule so that she accomplishes by deadline all the necessary tasks that her support staff used to do for her. I'm not criticizing Annalise for that; of course when you've reached the level that she was at and for so long, that's why you have a support staff. But it would've been unrealistic for her, currently working completely on her own, to magically know everything and not be impeded somewhat by the dismissal of her entire support staff.

I'm bored by the law students away from Annalise. The characters are just not that interesting on their own and none of the actors have Viola Davis's ability to be compelling even if reading a phone book. Hopefully this thing with Caplan being the law firm of Laurel's father will pull them back into Annalise's orbit with a quickness.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Black Knight

[possibilities]

Working there is the best way for Bonnie to be sure to stay connected to Annalise. They will DEFINITELY be seeing each other, and Anna will probably come asking for favors besides. If she really wanted to make a break, she'd move to another city and get a job at an unrelated firm. Even the kids managed to get hired (except Connor who honestly really did tank his interview). so Bonnie could probably get a job without moving, also, in a way that wouldn't put her in constant contact with Annalise, if that's what she really wanted.

That said, I like the possibility that we might see them at odds, at least for a little while, even if it's only on the surface.

Nate needs to do more than glower and strip, though. I feel bad for him; they don't even try to make his stories interesting. His character is glistening wallpaper.

[harmfulhazards]

The writers have only one storyline for Nate they keep constantly recycling.  For several episodes he goes on about how done he is with Annalise, then he forgets everything and starts playing a doting boyfriend. Than Annalise does something and he is done with her again until he isn't. So far Nate's story looks exactly like the one he had every previous season, and I don't really expect rest of it to be any different.

Bonnie's arc looks promising, on the other hand. While I think she will end up being on Annalise's side again before the midseason finale too, being away from Annalise's influence for a while can change their dynamics in interesting way. Maybe they will be able to become more like equals eventually instead of this weird codependent thing they have. Or maybe not. But it is going to be interesting to watch how this plays out.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

 

I'm bored by the law students away from Annalise. The characters are just not that interesting on their own and none of the actors have Viola Davis's ability to be compelling even if reading a phone book. Hopefully this thing with Caplan being the law firm of Laurel's father will pull them back into Annalise's orbit with a quickness.

Not for me, I could watch a spin off with at least Connor, Michaela and Asher...ok, throw in Oliver. That's the thing for me with Shondaland shows, I usually latch on to characters who are not the main character on these shows, which makes it easier for me to stop watching when they don't give those characters their due. Yeah, like when it looks like they are purposely holding those actors/characters back almost as if they are afraid of what? I dont' know. I just find that shows in Shondaland have too many good actors and interesting characters and the writers NEVER seem to be able to capitalize on this very well in that they insist on always having to making everything about those characters tie to the lead character. That's just not necessary when you have so many promising actors and characters, it just looks like the writers are lazy to me.   I started watching this show just for Viola, to give her my support because she's no doubt a brilliant actress and a few other reasons that have to do with Hollywood politics. But  I definitely don't need to see Michaela interact with Anna to find Michaela interesting. The actress and character can stand on their own IMO.  I think Connor and even Laurel as annoyed as I am with her eating up screen time can all stand on their own, they don't need Anna to be interesting IMO.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I also appreciated the show's nod to the fact that for umpteen years now Annalise has had a paid attorney in Bonnie and a revolving door of unpaid law students to do all the grunge work. As such she doesn't know where to file forms, doesn't have relationships with any of the courthouse employees, and hasn't yet learned how to plan her schedule so that she accomplishes by deadline all the necessary tasks that her support staff used to do for her. I'm not criticizing Annalise for that; of course when you've reached the level that she was at and for so long, that's why you have a support staff. But it would've been unrealistic for her, currently working completely on her own, to magically know everything and not be impeded somewhat by the dismissal of her entire support staff.

This rang true to me too. My dad retired from the C-suite a couple of years ago and had an assistant for as long as I can remember. He started a consulting business in retirement and now he asks me stuff like how to do various Office Suite things, because he always had someone doing that stuff for him. It's not surprising that Annalise is in a similar boat. It was a nice detail.

[Dee]

22 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't get Simon at all. Why IS he so obsessed with them, anyway? It seems way too random for this show. He's been a recurring presence and he's never really been developed, nor has he had any particularly interesting consequence. The flyers were a red herring, but they've still kept him around. Is the actor someone's nephew or something, and they just want to keep him employed? I don't get it.

He's jealous. He wants to be a part of their group & seeks to antagonize them because they pay him no mind.

[Black Knight]

5 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Not for me, I could watch a spin off with at least Connor, Michaela and Asher...ok, throw in Oliver. That's the thing for me with Shondaland shows, I usually latch on to characters who are not the main character on these shows, which makes it easier for me to stop watching when they don't give those characters their due.

Mileage definitely varies. I also am usually someone who prefers the supporting characters to the leads, both in Shondaland and elsewhere - I FF most of Meredith's scenes on Grey's, and while I don't FF Olivia's on Scandal, I've usually been more interested in other characters. Here, while Viola Davis is such a powerhouse and Annalise so complex that I have always been very interested in her, I'm actually surprised at how boring I'm finding the Keating students outside Annalise's orbit since I do like all the actors and characters. It might be because without her, they're very standard-issue legal drama, and I tend not to be interested in watching those shows.

[Milaxx]

On 10/8/2017 at 4:29 PM, harmfulhazards said:

The writers have only one storyline for Nate they keep constantly recycling.  For several episodes he goes on about how done he is with Annalise, then he forgets everything and starts playing a doting boyfriend. Than Annalise does something and he is done with her again until he isn't. So far Nate's story looks exactly like the one he had every previous season, and I don't really expect rest of it to be any different.

Bonnie's arc looks promising, on the other hand. While I think she will end up being on Annalise's side again before the midseason finale too, being away from Annalise's influence for a while can change their dynamics in interesting way. Maybe they will be able to become more like equals eventually instead of this weird codependent thing they have. Or maybe not. But it is going to be interesting to watch how this plays out.

I remember when Nate & Eve discussed this. Something like they can't help themselves. Eve and Bonnie are the same way, but they aren't as pathetic as Nate. Even Frank isn't as obvious in his devotion to AK as Nate it.

On 10/8/2017 at 4:40 PM, Keepitmoving said:

Not for me, I could watch a spin off with at least Connor, Michaela and Asher...ok, throw in Oliver.

I've been wondering what Connor will do without an internship. 

Spoiler

Conrad posted on twitter to be on the lookout for a Coliver related WOW moment this week. I know there were rumors of meeting one or both his parents. I wonder if it will be his dad since he was mentioned last week.

I supposed he could join forces with Oli, but he's not exactly a techie. Personally I prefer to see the Keating interns working together. I suspect Laurel's crazy will have them back working together soon enough.  She's already roped in Micheala which means she'll pull in Asher & Connor. From Connor it's just a short trip to pulling in Oliver. 

[harmfulhazards]

28 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I remember when Nate & Eve discussed this. Something like they can't help themselves. Eve and Bonnie are the same way, but they aren't as pathetic as Nate. Even Frank isn't as obvious in his devotion to AK as Nate it.

What conversation was it? I remember the one where Nate said that he hated Annalise and Eve said, that didn't really mean it, and then said that she missed Annalise and has fun with her, but that was it. We are still missing a lot of context in Bonnie's and Annalise's relationship, but from what we do know so far, Bonnie seems to be seriously indebted to Annalise. So her devotion makes some sense. Frank feels guilty about the betrayal and seeks atonement, so it makes sense too. Eve despite her feelings for AK, has always put herself first, had no trouble saying no when she felt it wasn't worth it and eventually moved on, which was a reasonable thing to do. Nate's obsession only makes sense if viewed through the shipper goggles. Which, I believe, is exactly how it is meant to be viewed.

[Milaxx]

That's the convo. I also remember Eve telling AK she calls and she just can't help herself she will come. In retrospect it makes sense that Eve would come see AK last season when her new GF wanted her to move away with her. Almost as if she needed AK's permission. AK telling her "go, let yourself be loved." carries a bit more weigh in that context. 

Nate is seriously a lap dog. I have no idea what draws him back time and time again. Especially since it almost always leads to his detriment.

[Aleks]

On 8.10.2017 at 6:21 PM, Empress1 said:

I could not care less about Bonnie. I didn't like her when she was simpering and I don't like her now.

Same here! She is my less liked character out of all (well, just Rebecca was worse) from the beginning. I generally hate people following the kiss-up-kick-down principle and she is a prime example. 

 

And I really hope that they won’t put any romantics between Bonnie and Nate - this would be way too ridiculous. 

 

Can‘t decide who is my number one, Michaela is a massive blast, Connor broke my heart while opening up to Laurel. The actors are amazing and eye candy on top. 

BTW: still couldn’t care less where Laurels baby is, hope behind the bloody elevator is not a red herring but another, much more intriguing story. 

[helenamonster]

On 10/8/2017 at 11:18 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

What gets me is Asher.  OMG, his temper is still over the top.  Regardless of how someone provokes you, you don't blow up that way.  He's dangerous.  I'd steer clear of him.  

I don't "like" his temper per se (I find it a little frightening, Matt McGorry plays it very well) but it's a consistent characterization and keeps me on my toes where Asher is concerned. The fact that he does have buttons that can be pushed keeps things tense with him, which is a nice balance to his usually goofiness.

[Annber03]

14 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

I don't "like" his temper per se (I find it a little frightening, Matt McGorry plays it very well) but it's a consistent characterization and keeps me on my toes where Asher is concerned. The fact that he does have buttons that can be pushed keeps things tense with him, which is a nice balance to his usually goofiness.

This. I remember the look on his face when he ran down that woman with his car a season or two ago. He legit gave me the chills in that episode as a whole. 

[sinkwriter]

Quote

I forget what the name with "Ollie" in it was, but later when he was pitching the law firms he introduced himself as being with " Hampton I.T. Services".  Subtle way of showing he listened to his friends.  

Control Oli Delete. (A play on the command to hit "control, alt, delete" to terminate and restart your system.) As a web designer, I admit I chuckled at that name. It was cute in a cheesy sort of way. I guess in the end he decided to go with the more serious branding.  *GRIN*

[Milaxx]

He went with Hampton IT services as the business name but it appears he uses the Control Oli Delete on the website for the business. It's cute in a nerdy sort of way.

[Chas411]

I'm really bored by both the Laurel and Connor pity parties. They've become the dullest characters on the show.