These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, Res said:

I am also really curious about the contract talks but quite honestly I'm in favor of the UO that the Js don't sign past the 300 ep. I'd rather have a kickass story line for them to go out on rather than have what's going on, the systematic destruction of show lore and characters, continue just to keep uncaring, lazy PTB/showrunners/writers in the money. They've already damaged everything and everyone that I used to love in the show so much that I barely recognize them anymore. I'm honestly not surprised that Sam and Dean aren't winning character polls anymore because of these lazy, uncaring a-holes. 

Pardon my bitterness rant. Sorry. 

Not sorry.

HA! I hear you and agree which is why I'm so curious.

And I'll never believe that they don't think that the writing has gone drastically downhill under Dabb, no matter what they say in public.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sorry, got sidetracked again...it sounds like the boys go looking for the Spawn in a couple episodes, so I'm thinking he either runs off on his own or he's kidnapped by either Asmodeus or some other player. I'm not sure Lucifer will make it back to our universe until mid-season, but the episode description where Cass and Lucifer make a deal for Jack makes me think that Lucifer doesn't have him. I can't remember the exactly wordage, but it sounded like they needed to work together for Jack.

Well, I think Lucifer is going to have to eventually get his hands on him so the whole nature vs. nurture thing can truly play out. But then again, if they turn Lucifer "good", AKA better than the Big Bad(likely Michael), the nature vs nurture debate becomes pretty much a moot point-not that that would occur to these writers.

Ach. I'm not seeing anything good coming out of any of this. I hated poor, misunderstood Lucifer in S11. Blech.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Well, I think Lucifer is going to have to eventually get his hands on him so the whole nature vs. nurture thing can truly play out. But then again, if they turn Lucifer "good", AKA better than the Big Bad(likely Michael), the nature vs nurture debate becomes pretty much a moot point-not that that would occur to these writers.

Not necessarily. I mean, will he go bad because his father was the Devil or will he be good because Sam and Dean influenced him positively isn't determined by whether he actually meets Lucifer. In fact, the argument would be stronger if he never does. If he goes bad after meeting Lucifer, how do you know that wasn't due to some nurture on Lucifer's part or whether it was just his nature?

Edited November 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

I meant for the drama of it all-or the melodrama to be more precise. ;-)

[Res]

23 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

HA! I hear you and agree which is why I'm so curious.

And I'll never believe that they don't think that the writing has gone drastically downhill under Dabb, no matter what they say in public.

I agree and I know this is slightly OT so this is the last I'll say on it. Depending on their situation, I could see them signing for more because it is a steady paycheck at this point and they aren't really being that challenged or overworked, per say, as they have the clout to make their own terms which they wouldn't be able to necessarily in a new show. Plus, they view the crew as family at this point and know them signing or not signing effect a lot of people so sometimes it's easier to just go with the norm and known.

They've also changed their tune from staying "as long as the writing is there" to "running the money train into the ground" so, yeah, they know about the writing.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Res said:

They've also changed their tune from staying "as long as the writing is there" to "running the money train into the ground" so, yeah, they know about the writing.

Have they both really said this? I've seen JP, and even MC, say it, but I've always held out hope that JA wouldn't go there. So disappointing, if true.

[Res]

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Have they both really said this? I've seen JP, and even MC, say it, but I've always held out hope that JA wouldn't go there. So disappointing, if true.

Yep. It was at a con. JIB I think a couple of years ago. He said it very sardonically. I was shocked and very sad after the shock wore off.

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, Res said:

Yep. It was at a con. JIB I think a couple of years ago. He said it very sardonically. I was shocked and very sad after the shock wore off.

Replied in the Unpopular Opinion Thread

[DeeDee79]

20 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Have they both really said this? I've seen JP, and even MC, say it, but I've always held out hope that JA wouldn't go there. So disappointing, if true.

Considering the crap writing for Dean in the last few seasons I can't really blame him. We've all been there with jobs that were crappy but you stay on because the money is good until you find something better. I do wonder why he hasn't moved on to another project though; from what I've read he's certainly gotten offers.

[Res]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering the crap writing for Dean in the last few seasons I can't really blame him. We've all been there with jobs that were crappy but you stay on because the money is good until you find something better. I do wonder why he hasn't moved on to another project though; from what I've read he's certainly gotten offers.

I think that's because they've been able to get more time off, the money and that they consider the crew family. From what I understand, it's a very comfortable, relaxed set and that doesn't show up as much in industry but who knows. There could be a lot of BTS stuff that comes out after the show is over.

[MysteryGuest]

I think it makes sense to assume Asmodeus makes another play for him.  If they're going to make this guy into anything but a pale replacement for Crowley, they're going to have to give him something evil to do.  My money is on him absconding with Jack for a bit.  

Interesting that Billie's back.  Maybe she is just a figment of someone's imagination, but I didn't expect to see her again.  Maybe she'll have some much needed insight to give in regard to The Empty.  

I have to say I don't understand a lot of the issues people are having about this season.  I actually think it's been much better than last season, and that Dean has been an integral part of the plot for each episode.  No, he hasn't gotten the kill every week, but he's certainly had some.  I guess if Dean is the only character you like, then it would be difficult to watch whenever anyone else is on the screen, but the show is about more than just Sam and Dean now, and has been for a while.  I think they're doing a much better job of making the boys the main focus of the show, vs. last season.  Just my opinion.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And I'll never believe that they don't think that the writing has gone drastically downhill under Dabb, no matter what they say in public.

IMO, it's what Jensen doesn't say that tells the story. He has barely tweeted about the show at all, apart from 'We're back!' and 'That's a wrap' (paraphrased). The few enthusiastic things he's had to say have been about the car, and last season, about the director/guest actors and the Shaving People/Punting things promos. The few current show related questions are either taken over by Jared (who, does seem enthused - go figure) or given factual, dry answers.

[Aeryn13]

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 and that Dean has been an integral part of the plot for each episode.  

So far I`d say the constant drum of how mean and wrong he is and only that made the content highly unpleasant to watch, even if I agree the characters gets to have more of a presence than sleepwalking through the scenes. It`s like someone just constantly yelling at you, it`s not enjoyable. Hence, it`s better but still no fun to watch.

Somehow during the MOC dark arc things went much better and much less one-sided. Or early Season 2 which explored the same theme, just vastly better written. I`d have vastly prefered something like this. 

Quote

I think it makes sense to assume Asmodeus makes another play for him. 

 The episode synopsis specifies that the brothers (and Cas) look for Jack whith Asmodeus hot on their heels. And we have the spoiler about Cas making a deal or something alike with Lucifer. That tells me that neither of those parties has Jack. Who, btw, should be too powerful to get caught by any of them.

My suspects right now? Possibly AU!Michael. Or the Empty!keeper. It`s debatable if the first would be powerful enough but maybe. The second one probably if it`s a cosmic creature even pre-dating God and Amara. Maybe he figured out who woke up someone in his realm and wants to silence that so it will never happen again.

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I will say that so far this Season the character aquitted himself well in his first outing. And it was a supernatural story. So while overall I don`t disagree that Cas has suffered some atrocious doofus-writing (IMO because of the revolving door nonsense with him), I`m tentatively optimistic. Even knowing all I know right now.  

Dabb IMO has shown a pretty formulaic approach to writing Castiel.  He starts the season off in a seemingly hopeful note (S11 (which I largely credit to Dabb despite having Carver's name on it officially) begins with him dealing with the fallout of Rowena's spell and seemingly taking steps to ensure he won't be manipulated anymore until boom he's an idiot who lets Lucifer out of the cage, which offers no advantage in fighting Amara and is still causing problems for them now. While S12 likewise starts with Cas taking proactive action to help put Lucifer back in the cage and his bond with the brothers was seemingly stronger than ever. However, after episode 12 hes thrown into the background, appears a handful of times to betray the brothers and help the spawn of Satan be born and gets himself killed through sheer stupidity). So I'm pretty much taking the approach of "trick me once shame on you and trick me twice shame on me" when it comes to Dabb's handling of Castiel and the spoilers of him making yet another fucking deal confirms I'm right IMO.

 

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay fine take Cas out of it. Honestly at this point I hope Dean does end up being the smart guy in the room cause he's got nothing else right now except being a dick.

ETA ; at least Cas has a damn SL of some kind. Dean is doing... nothing thus far. Misha got to play a dual role. Jensen was a shapeshifter for like 30 seconds

 

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

One thing Misha is getting is material to work with.   Even if it really not good writing.  At least the writers gave him something to do by allowing him to play the entity in The Empty, and now Jack's surrogate father, and Dabb was quick to reassure that Misha had a story that will last all season.

I'd take what Misha is getting right now for Dean because anything beats this valium/doormat/ version they've been giving us for the last 3 seasons.

At this point I'd even take them having Dean snap and become a full on big bad.

Eh, does Castiel actually get story-lines though? I'd argue that he's treated as a mere plot device to aid the story line of other characters such as Sam, Dean and Lucifer without the first two having to get their hands tidy (which is an interesting contrast to Carver who sometimes went too far with regards to letting Sam and Dean get their hands dirty, but I digress). Castiel gets to make all of the mess but doesn't get to redeem himself afterwards and the storylines become about other characters in particular Sam and Dean who take over as they clean up the mess Castiel made of things. It's actually become something of a running joke as Castiel himself and other characters have referenced the fact that he keeps making mistake after mistake with no signs of him getting a victory.

So yeah I'm sorry but in my eyes so called "valium" Dean is no worse than "plot device only there to make the stupid decisions needed to advanced everyone elses storyline" Castiel. 

 

ETA: Hope it's OK that I put this post in here! I figured it best fits since it contains bitterness about upcoming spoilers (the whole Cas making another deal) and Castiel is neither bitch or jerk. If it belongs elsewhere I'll be happy to move it. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

36 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Dabb IMO has shown a pretty formulaic approach to writing Castiel.  He starts the season off in a seemingly hopeful note (S11 (which I largely credit to Dabb despite having Carver's name on it officially) begins with him dealing with the fallout of Rowena's spell and seemingly taking steps to ensure he won't be manipulated anymore until boom he's an idiot who lets Lucifer out of the cage, which offers no advantage in fighting Amara and is still causing problems for them now. While S12 likewise starts with Cas taking proactive action to help put Lucifer back in the cage and his bond with the brothers was seemingly stronger than ever. However, after episode 12 hes thrown into the background, appears a handful of times to betray the brothers and help the spawn of Satan be born and gets himself killed through sheer stupidity). So I'm pretty much taking the approach of "trick me once shame on you and trick me twice shame on me" when it comes to Dabb's handling of Castiel and the spoilers of him making yet another fucking deal confirms I'm right IMO.

 

I don't think the writing is great for Cas by any means.  It's never bothered me when the characters do stupid or controversial things if it makes a good storyline.  I spent the entire episode of First Born hoping Dean would some how take on the mark.  I didn't think for one minute think anything good would happen to Dean because of it, I just want to be entertained. 

So Cas letting out Lucifer was dumb, sure but as I said it did give Misha some material to play with.  I was kind of neutral on the storyline.  I thought Misha did a nice job but I was so over lucifer at that point.  I a friendly with a big Misha fan and she really liked the story because she felt it really gave Misha a chance to stretch his wings.

I think the writing is terrible all around, so I do agree that Cas making a deal is something I wish they weren't doing.  But where I'm feeling the bitterness is that at least Cas has something coming up.  The Jack storyline is much more Sam centric and something Jared commented on being excited for.   There are spoilers for Mary, Lucifer, and Asmodeus.

The only character no one is really talking about is Dean.  So at this point I would even take a storyline about making a deal. 

*I'm not sure if i should have put this is Bitch vs Jerk but since it does contain spoilers I thought I would chance putting her.  Mods if I have it in the wrong thread please let me know and I move it.

[ILoveReading]

It seems like Yockey has been given the taking too as well about being to Dean friendly. It looks like once again Dean is taken out and needs rescuing. 

If it plays out like the pics show it will be five for five with Dean needing to be rescued.

Edited November 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Res]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It seems like Yockey has been given the taking too as well about being to Dean friendly. It looks like once again Dean is taken out and needs rescuing. 

If it plays out like the pics show it will be five for five with Dean needing to be rescued.

I so miss the rolling eyes emojis

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, Res said:

I so miss the rolling eyes emojis

HA! You and me both. ;-)

So I just saw the new pics from tomorrow's episode and that emoji would be made for them, IMO.

I'm betting on Deansel in Distress and Inept/InertDean both making an appearance.

Oh joy. Can't wait.

I'll definitely be looking for reports on this one before watching.

[Aeryn13]

Knocked down again? It should be a statistical improbability to be incompetent all the time. I mean, by dumb luck you should win some now and then. Why is he continuing to do this job?

Too bad. I thought maybe this episode was gonna be a random, inoffensive MOTW. Yockey was my last hope at this point.

And it bugs that the Western-themed episode 6 - I love Westerns - is done by Perez. Couldn`t he screw up something boring? 

[catrox14]

All News

Mark Pellegrino Deconstructs ‘Supernatural’S’ Lucifer and Redemption

By

Carol Hansson November 6, 2017

https://movietvtechgeeks.com/mark-pellegrino-deconstructs-supernaturals-lucifer-redemption/

 

Quote

[snip]....but it had that quote that you said in this last episode [The Rising Son] about Lucifer being smart and not totally evil. There’s been a lot of talk about Sam’s experience with Lucifer and how badly he was tortured; when Sam and Lucifer do finally meet again in this season, is Sam still going to be so fearful of Lucifer? What are your thoughts on that whole situation?

I imagine Sam is going to have some PTSD. You don’t spend time in the cage and come out of that experience completely whole. I think he will have some residual feelings about the old Lucifer. The dynamics in the universe have shifted, or are going to shift to a degree that people’s feelings about each other don’t matter so much.

Sounds like Sam and Lucifer will meet YET again in s13. (who called a Sam/Lucifer SL when he was brought back in s12?..me) and.....

Quote

At the end of the premiere episode, which really had me bawling – the scene where Sam and Dean and Jack are saying goodbye to Cas, Kelly Kline and Crowley … I don’t know how much you want to talk about Crowley’s demise … but because Crowley has been Lucifer’s nemesis for so long, do you think he actually maybe misses him?

....[snip]He admires cleverness and intelligence and will. Crowley demonstrated the ability to outsmart him. He liked it … he liked the challenge … the challenge now of fighting this formidable being … like any great boxer is going to be defined by his opposition. Ali wasn’t Ali until he met Foreman and Frazier. And that’s what made him a champion.

The same with Lucifer … I think he would see things in the terms of bring me your biggest challenge and I’ll meet it. I think he would miss Crowley to be honest. Especially with this new guy Asmodeus coming up. That guy’s a real piece of work. I think he’s a lot worse and a lot more powerful than Crowley. Crowley was sort of an ambitious CEO … sort of a ruthless CEO, there was something about his intelligence that I admire. I don’t think that’s the same with Asmodeus, he’s a tyrant.

.....sounds like Lucifer will fight Asmodeus for Jack likely allied with Sam/Jack/Cas/Mary so that leaves Michael for Dean yet it's been said that Michael doesn't care about Dean.  So what is there for Dean? The lack of Dean spoilers better mean something brilliant for Dean but I fear it does not.

[catrox14]

...continued

 

 

Quote

One of the other comments that I actually got involved in was someone was saying that they do not want to see Lucifer’s redemption, if Lucifer has a redemption arc. I said, if we don’t see Lucifer as a fully formed, well, angel in this case, he becomes just a one-dimensional foil for Sam and Dean, and honestly, that’s just boring. As the actor that plays Lucifer, I’m assuming that you prefer the roles where you have more than just a one-dimensional character to play.

I do. You can’t act what isn’t there, but I always try to add different dimensions to a character, that I don’t necessarily see on the page. Redemption of a character like Lucifer – I’m not even sure what it means. Just think about it. Just because I see the mythology of Lucifer in our culture as one massive paradox, you know what I mean? On the one hand, there are these absolutely noble characters that he possesses, and if we saw them in a human being, we would say, “This man is a king of virtue.” His stubbornness, resilience, his insurmountable will and his sense of justice … and the thing that he’s probably put down for most, his sense of pride.

To me, these are virtues. If I saw them in another person, instead of pride as in arrogance but pride as in a sense of justice and a feeling for your own ability to deal with the universe … it’s a different sensibility toward pride than the one that Western culture gives you.

On the one hand, I seem him as the first rebel against authority; whose own personal characteristics drove him to say no. The first to say no. I see him as the being that introduced humanity to its moral sense. The paradox in all of this is that all of these characteristics are seen as sins in a religious world. Instead of rebellion, conformity and obedience are seen as virtues. Instead of an independent mind, and a moral sense, submission is seen as a virtue. Humility instead of pride, so somehow our society adopted – they say whoever wins the war dictates the history. Lucifer lost the war, so the opposition made the history and turned values upside down.

So the guy who actually thinks he’s a figure of virtue, instead of vice, I don’t know what kind of arc that would be … to acknowledge the other side is right and to change from what he is, would mean embracing the opposite of what he stands for. I don’t want that to happen, but I do want healing to happen. I think that the bad parts of Lucifer’s character were bred from – I don’t think they are nature, I think they’re nurture, and this is an argument that was started by Sam. They’re just saying Lucifer is just inheritably bad, whereas Sam wants to apply a different kind of ethics to Jack, but I don’t think Lucifer is inheritably bad … I think his dad even said that. I think isolation from love and alienation from an entire universe, and being painted as the villain from time immemorial, can sour a person.

Just in the five days that I was painted as worse than the devil himself in the eyes of social media were annoying as fucking hell! I can’t imagine going through it for a fucking eternity. And not being pissed off at everybody.

That is so true.

So if you have a sense of pride and dignity, when you’re being attacked like that, it’s going to inspire a vast reprisal. I think Lucifer’s desire for revenge – I used to think that was what motivated him but it seems a little different. I don’t remember if it’s already been filmed or if it’s happening in the future, but Lucifer has a very specific take on creation and on his father. And it’s not what you think. It’s actually kind of interesting. You’re going to see it in a few episodes.

[Myrelle]

Sounds like more pimping of Dabb's new show-The Lucifer and Jack Show, that is.

[gonzosgirrl]

Quote

Just in the five days that I was painted as worse than the devil himself in the eyes of social media were annoying as fucking hell! I can’t imagine going through it for a fucking eternity. And not being pissed off at everybody.

Really, Mark?

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Really, Mark?

Yeah.......I was amazed/bemused at how much of that interview was rather self serving about his own Twitter drama.

I'm more befuddled at his ramblings about Lucifer. Like what? That dude is a trip.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Sounds like more pimping of Dabb's new show-The Lucifer and Jack Show, that is.

At this point I would be more than happy if Lucifer and Jack went off on their own show.  Leave me with TFW.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah.......I was amazed/bemused at how much of that interview was rather self serving about his own Twitter drama.

I'm not surprised at all. 

[ILoveReading]

The problem with this sneak peek is  twofold. 

1. What does it say about this relationship if it only takes Sam being nice to him to weird him out. 

2. It should have come last week when Dean said he needed space from Jack. It reminds me of Sam in 8.7 when he’s suddenly being all sympathetic after when Dean gave Into Sam. Now it just looks like  Sam is once again  suddenly being nice because he got his own way. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

...continued (snipped)

On the one hand, there are these absolutely noble characters that he possesses, and if we saw them in a human being, we would say, “This man is a king of virtue.” His stubbornness, resilience, his insurmountable will and his sense of justice … and the thing that he’s probably put down for most, his sense of pride.

To me, these are virtues. If I saw them in another person, instead of pride as in arrogance but pride as in a sense of justice and a feeling for your own ability to deal with the universe … it’s a different sensibility toward pride than the one that Western culture gives you.

On the one hand, I seem him as the first rebel against authority; whose own personal characteristics drove him to say no. The first to say no. I see him as the being that introduced humanity to its moral sense. The paradox in all of this is that all of these characteristics are seen as sins in a religious world. Instead of rebellion, conformity and obedience are seen as virtues. Instead of an independent mind, and a moral sense, submission is seen as a virtue. Humility instead of pride, so somehow our society adopted – they say whoever wins the war dictates the history. Lucifer lost the war, so the opposition made the history and turned values upside down.

So the guy who actually thinks he’s a figure of virtue, instead of vice, I don’t know what kind of arc that would be … to acknowledge the other side is right and to change from what he is, would mean embracing the opposite of what he stands for. I don’t want that to happen, but I do want healing to happen.

 

He has all these 'on the one hand's about Lucifer, but I don't see the other hand being mentioned. You know, the one where this Lucifer, Supernatural's Lucifer, killed thousands of innocent people, killed Castiel, killed Bobby (regardless of their eventual resurrection) tortured Sam in Hell, then after maaaybe gaining a little redemption for trying to help with Amara, came back and continued to murder innocent people by the dozens in S12 because he was bored. So yeah, fuck off with your attempt to gain sympathy for the character Mark. Fuck all the way off.

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem with this sneak peek is  twofold. 

1. What does it say about this relationship if it only takes Sam being nice to him to weird him out. 

2. It should have come last week when Dean said he needed space from Jack. It reminds me of Sam in 8.7 when he’s suddenly being all sympathetic after when Dean gave Into Sam. Now it just looks like  Sam is once again  suddenly being nice because he got his own way. 

1. I don't think he's weirded out because Sam is being nice to him, he's weirded out because Sam isn't acting like himself. 

2. Or, it's simply not Sam. I still maintain it's not as straightforward as it appears.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

1. I don't think he's weirded out because Sam is being nice to him, he's weirded out because Sam isn't acting like himself. 

 

Which means Sam being nice to him isn't Sam's natural state, lol.

[Aeryn13]

I did like that in the sneak peak Dean noticed the obvious obviousness of Sam being obvious. And that - at least as far as in the clip - he is just weirded out, yet otherwise calm. Hopefully he can simply state that basically the "ice-cream-treatment" won`t work with grief. I mean, it wouldn`t even work on a really grieving child. At least not longterm. 

I believe the situation is gonna be straight-forward and since Cas will be back at the end, this will be what gives Dean some hope back. Singer spoiled as much some time back.  

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Which means Sam being nice to him isn't Sam's natural state, lol.

To me, the clip suggests that Sam is trying to do things he thinks Sam would do--like eat chili fries--not that Sam is doing things to play nice. It kinda reminds me of Swap Meat except Dean is cluing in to it much sooner.

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I believe the situation is gonna be straight-forward and since Cas will be back at the end, this will be what gives Dean some hope back. Singer spoiled as much some time back. 

I just don't want to watch Sam saving Dean over and over again as I fear is going to happen because of what Singer's wife said about Dean becoming almost "inert" over his grief. I hope Dean will decide to save himself from his own grief and he'll be rewarded with Cas' return, but that hope is extremely thin considering the narratives we've been getting since last season when the brothers have been hunting together.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Myrelle
Oops! I'm already in the right thread...

[Aeryn13]

Quote

To me, the clip suggests that Sam is trying to do things he thinks Sam would do--like eat chili fries--not that Sam is doing things to play nice.

But Dean specifically calls him out on doing things Sam would normally not do, all because he obviously thinks Dean would like them: a beer for breakfast, the pseudonym, visiting a strip club. 

If that was an entity trying to act like Sam, then it would still mean that Dean calls said entity out on doing it wrong, with a "you are not normally that nice to me." 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To me, the clip suggests that Sam is trying to do things he thinks Sam would do--like eat chili fries--not that Sam is doing things to play nice. It kinda reminds me of Swap Meat except Dean is cluing in to it much sooner.

I guess we'll find out soon enough, but my impression was Sam maybe trying to make up with/comfort Dean in the most cliched way he can think of. There was a time I would've loved that - but now it just makes me side-eye, since either a) you're right and it's not Sam at all (or he's supernaturally affected by something) or b) these are the only things he believes matters to Dean, and an order of chili fries makes up for his outburst at the Shifterpist's office and blaming him for Jack being messed up.

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Taking to the Bitter Spoilers thread.

LOL, dude - this is the bitter spoilers thread. ;)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 but my impression was Sam maybe trying to make up with/comfort Dean in the most cliched way he can think of. 

Yeah, I think it`s basically a version of "here is ice-cream... now are you no longer sad again?"  Um, no. People are not that shallow. Dean is not that shallow. 

Unfortunately, I do believe the set-up for this episode lends itself to a version of Deansel in distress, namely I could see that stupid "inertia" setting in where he suddenly doesn`t fight back or something and has to be saved. Bla bla. 

Which is still a load of bullshit because if he wanted suicide via hunt, he has had mutliple opportunities this Season so him just doing it now would be plot-convenient. What has changed really? Did the last episode give him the rest because it was so bad? Because that, I could relate to.  

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess we'll find out soon enough, but my impression was Sam maybe trying to make up with/comfort Dean in the most cliched way he can think of. There was a time I would've loved that - but now it just makes me side-eye, since either a) you're right and it's not Sam at all (or he's supernaturally affected by something) or b) these are the only things he believes matters to Dean, and an order of chili fries makes up for his outburst at the Shifterpist's office and blaming him for Jack being messed up.

Yeah, I think this is what they will go with, but there will be no apology whatsoever from Sam, IMO. The most we might get from Sam is that he's trying to thank Dean for coming around about Jack. I will be greatly surprised if any kind of an apology, other than that, crosses Sam's lips.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

Oooh, I just had a thought. If this 'doctor' is anything like Ellicott in Asylum and is influencing people - then maybe this is yet another attempt to balance out one of Sam's pesky 'not-my-fault-I-tried-to-kill-you' blasts from the past with him overcoming the mind-control this time and saving Dean instead.

 

ETA: and if Dabb continues down his road of whitewashing everything Sam has ever done by having Dean do it in spades, then Dean will somehow be controlled into trying to hurt Sam before being saved. <<< bitter speculation

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

I think Sam and Jack have body swapped and it's Jack saying what he thinks Dean wants to hear to keep him from being mad at him.

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, I think it`s basically a version of "here is ice-cream... now are you no longer sad again?"  Um, no. People are not that shallow. Dean is not that shallow. 

Unfortunately, I do believe the set-up for this episode lends itself to a version of Deansel in distress, namely I could see that stupid "inertia" setting in where he suddenly doesn`t fight back or something and has to be saved. Bla bla. 

Which is still a load of bullshit because if he wanted suicide via hunt, he has had mutliple opportunities this Season so him just doing it now would be plot-convenient. What has changed really? Did the last episode give him the rest because it was so bad? Because that, I could relate to.  

IA-especially with the bolded parts.

[ILoveReading]

It’s not just how Sam is acting. It’s the timing. When dean is right in Sams  face yells at him that he needs space from Jack and Sams response is to shove him at Dean even harder. 

So why now when Dean is softening toward Jack is Sam suddenly so willing to back off and suddenly start letting Dean have his space from jack 

why is Sam now trying to understand what Dean needs only after Sam got his way?

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Sam and Jack have body swapped and it's Jack saying what he thinks Dean wants to hear to keep him from being mad at him.

Well that would work with @DittyDotDot's Swap Meat vibe.

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oooh, I just had a thought. If this 'doctor' is anything like Ellicott in Asylum and is influencing people - then maybe this is yet another attempt to balance out one of Sam's pesky 'not-my-fault-I-tried-to-kill-you' blasts from the past with him overcoming the mind-control this time and saving Dean instead.

Egads, then there's this, too. Blech to any scenario that involves Dean having to be saved by Sam again. I'm so over that.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

It’s not just how Sam is acting. It’s the timing. When dean is right in Sams  face yells at him that he needs space from Jack and Sams response is to shove him at Dean even harder. 

So why now when Dean is softening toward Jack is Sam suddenly so willing to back off and suddenly start letting Dean have his space from jack 

why is Sam now trying to understand what Dean needs only after Sam got his way?

Because you follow up 'tough love' with positive reinforcement of good behavior? Just like any good obedience trainer would do.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Well that would work with @DittyDotDot's Swap Meat vibe.

Or it might be something like Jack and Sam have a conversation about Dean and Sam not getting along. Sam says something like I just want us to get along, and voila, Jack is in Sam and trying to make Dean like Sam again.

[Wayward Son]

I still think Sam conveniently backing off now comes down to “Oh we only have Alexander for 13 episodes and we’ve used four of those already and he has the big reunions with Cas next week! He needs written out of your episode Yockey” LOL

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Sam and Jack have body swapped and it's Jack saying what he thinks Dean wants to hear to keep him from being mad at him.

Well, JP playing Jack might be work better for me than JP playing Sam. Heh.

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It’s not just how Sam is acting. It’s the timing. When dean is right in Sams  face yells at him that he needs space from Jack and Sams response is to shove him at Dean even harder. 

So why now when Dean is softening toward Jack is Sam suddenly so willing to back off and suddenly start letting Dean have his space from jack 

why is Sam now trying to understand what Dean needs only after Sam got his way?

 

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because you follow up 'tough love' with positive reinforcement of good behavior? Just like any good obedience trainer would do.

Exactly.

[ILoveReading]

If jack is imitating Sam neither Sam nor Dean are going to come out of it looking good. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm hoping Jared meant that Sam is happy that Dean gets to be a bit childlike in his love of cowboy lore vs Sam sees Dean as childish and mocks him for it.  Maybe Sam will have some of his own character growth that he won't mock Dean's childlike glee for cowboy fun.

I think it's odd that Alexander thinks meeting Castiel is like meeting another alien like him. I mean he already knows angels are on Earth since he's half archangel right. He knows he's half archangel, doesn't he?

Given Sam's reaction to finding Dean on the floor last week, I'd say there is about a zero percent chance of Sam not mocking Dean tonight. In fact, even if the lines/scenes are written with any kind of ambivalence, I'll lay odds Jared's choice of expressions for Sam will be exasperation/mild embarrassment, if not outright disdain.

[Wayward Son]

Considering Dabb's inability to allow Castiel to do anything outside of screwing up I'm going to speculate Cas does something to upset Jack and that's why he disappears by episode 7! 

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Considering Dabb's inability to allow Castiel to do anything outside of screwing up I'm going to speculate Cas does something to upset Jack and that's why he disappears by episode 7! 

I think it's going to actually be that Cas finds out Dean promised to kill Jack and he takes off with Jack to protect him from Dean.