These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

The Js are getting lots of time off.  That's the only silver lining in all this.  I foresee a ratings drop and possibly cancellation notice next Spring.

For them, yes. But for someone who watches for Dean/Jensen and TFW 1.0 it's disappointing.  I don't watch for the other characters.  Dabb is going to rework SPN into a completely different show that will end up with Jared, Jensen and Misha with the AND credits and a fraction of the story will actually be about them before it's all said and done.  And I don't think Dabb et all are creative enough to make their absences unnoticeable or make it into a good story. 

It feels like how X Files wound down with David and Gillian having much less time on the show and it was not the same. I'd rather they write a final ending and go out with a bang than turn it into some run of the mill fantasy show.  

[Casseiopeia]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For them, yes. But for someone who watches for Dean/Jensen and TFW 1.0 it's disappointing.  I don't watch for the other characters.  Dabb is going to rework SPN into a completely different show that will end up with Jared, Jensen and Misha with the AND credits and a fraction of the story will actually be about them before it's all said and done.  And I don't think Dabb et all are creative enough to make their absences unnoticeable or make it into a good story. 

It feels like how X Files wound down with David and Gillian having much less time on the show and it was not the same. I'd rather they write a final ending and go out with a bang than turn it into some run of the mill fantasy show.  

I think the only way the show continues past S14 is if the CW agrees to shorten the seasons even more.  The J's are up for more years if the seasons are no more than 13-16 episodes and if they can negotiate it Supernatural should swing back around to the Winchesters, TFW (+Jack) story.  If not I think we get a shortened S15 or a big 2 part finale and that will be it.

[bethy]

Yeah, for me, more time off for Jensen and Jared is not good news. I watch the show for them, and specifically Jensen. And what the show is doing right now also reminds me a lot of the end of the original series of the X-Files. I wish when actors start talking about more time off that the powers that be would just end the show. This dragging things out for years and years and trying to hobble along while the characters that have drawn people into a show and a story are sidelined, and so that, I'm sorry, actors who are being paid a butt-load of money can have even less work to do really begins to annoy me. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I watch for The Winchesters and Cas too. The move to an ensemble cast that gives Jared and Jensen more time with family might extend how long the show goes on but decreases the quality for me. I like supporting characters to be occasional and not central to the story.

[Aeryn13]

At a certain point reduced screentime of the leads is not gonna work for the network anymore. They didn`t greenlit Waward or any other potential spin-off idea for a reason. I mean, Pedowitz pretty much came right out and said what he/they think is the reason SPN works.

They greentlit Legacies of all things which faces an uphill battle (now pretty much upwards Mount Everest but that is self-made misery after TO) because the network has rapport with the showrunner and thinks they can make something in the same universe with new characters. Quite obviously, they do not have that faith for the SPN folk. 

So stealthly trying to change the show into the spin-off they wanted anyway might work for several actors and producers but not for the network wanting to more SPN onto the air. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:

Don't suppose we could all take career breaks, go to Vancouver and take over the writers' room, even for six months?

I'd settle for them hiring somebody to keep the show bible and force writers to at least be aware of glaring canonical errors when they are putting the story together.

As for the WS being crammed back into SPN world. I am more than happy to have Jody and/or Donna in an episode or two. As supporting characters, working a case with the boys. But I don't trust Dabb not to make it the Wayward Sister hour, with cameos by Dean and Sam, and I don't care if it's unpopular opinion, I'm not interested in that. Even less interested in watching them save the dumbed-down brothers' asses.  As @catrox14 mentioned, they already threw Dean under the bus with the gun in Kaia's face thing. Not to mention Jody pooh-poohing his advice to psychic-girl (name escapes me). I also don't care if I never see Claire again. IMO the only way the WS belong in an episode right now is to wrap up Evil!Kaia - and I most certainly don't believe for a minute Dabb will do that without making Dean the bad guy for bringing her into it in the first place. So yeah, no.

[gonzosgirrl]

My low opinion of Dabb is no secret, and I have said since day one that it felt to me as though he were writing towards the end of the series. Building his own universe, so to speak, complete with his pet Lucifer/Mark P and his longed-for spinoff. Since WS was scuttled, I have little doubt that he's still steering the ship along that course. So I fully expect to see him continue writing for his wayward sisters, and for Jack, and probably Mark P as a resurrected and redeemed Lucifer, or even more ridiculously resurrected meat-suit Nick, surrogate Daddy/Bobby figure for what's left of the SPN verse in the end. Probably with Cas as the resident angel.

Creation is trying to build a future for the cons around Misha and the B cast, without J2. IMO, the show is, too - and I, too, wish they'd just end it with dignity for the brothers and let its own 'Legacies' take its place if that's what they want.

Edited August 24, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

and probably Mark P as a resurrected and redeemed Lucifer, or even more ridiculously resurrected meat-suit Nick, surrogate Daddy/Bobby figure for what's left of the SPN verse in the end.

You mean like Carl's dying fever dream of Negan watching over his (Carl's) little sister Judith in The Walking Dead? ::takes deep breaths to avoid wanting to utter obscenities::

If you don't know the reference, I think @catrox14 would probably back me up on the horror and utter ridiculousness of that one.

Edited August 24, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If you don't know the reference, I think @catrox14 would probably back me up on the horror and utter ridiculousness of that one.

100% concur. I almost threw the remote at my TV. And I'm surprised my eyeballs found their way back to the front.

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:19 AM, ukgirl71 said:

Don't suppose we could all take career breaks, go to Vancouver and take over the writers' room, even for six months?

Not if you're going to Vancouver--the writer's room is in LA.

[devlin]

I actually don’t mind that dean is back after three episodes because Jensen has created such a complex and beautiful character whose journey I love following. I am not looking forward to how sam and the au characters are going to treat him 

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd skip watching the afternoon panel.  It was mostly, selfie requests, can you say hi, what is your favorite Sam hair season, and personal stories. 

I posted a spoiler in the spoiler thread.

Also Jensen asked Richard for advice on how to  approach Michael's character, and he said Richard really helped him out. 

Those are about the two interesting things that came out of it.

I'm legit worried about Michael!Dean now. UO I don't think Richard is that great director and I'm not sure why he would have more input on Michael than someone else. I'm curious about the reason Jensen answered like he did.

[devlin]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm legit worried about Michael!Dean now. UO I don't think Richard is that great director and I'm not sure why he would have more input on Michael than someone else. I'm curious about the reason Jensen answered like he did.

I agree that Richard is not a great director nor actor for that matter but what I got from that was that he was the only one interested in the Michael storyline enough to give the poor guy some feedback

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, devlin said:

I agree that Richard is not a great director nor actor for that matter but what I got from that was that he was the only one interested in the Michael storyline enough to give the poor guy some feedback

Jensen mentioned that he called Dabb and Dabb was basically like "you got this."

But then again Jensen had to remind Dabb that Michael had powers.  So that speaks volumes about how much thought Dabb put into this storyline- none.

[devlin]

But then again thinking about it, I cannot for the life of me think why Richard would be interested in the Michael storyline unless it comes back to how dean is a bad brother, or it is crucial to setting up another jp storyline ?

[DeeDee79]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen mentioned that he called Dabb and Dabb was basically like "you got this."

This is straight up bullshit. The freaking showrunner can't give a main some insight when he asks for it and he has to go to a sometime director for input? I wonder what kind of answer Dabb would have given if Mark Pellegrino had called for character motivation. He probably would have talked until he was hoarse. JFC.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, devlin said:

But then again thinking about it, I cannot for the life of me think why Richard would be interested in the Michael storyline unless it comes back to how dean is a bad brother, or it is crucial to setting up another jp storyline ?

Given that Rich directed two of my least favourite episodes of the series, both of which were less than stellar for Dean (IMO of course), I'm not sure I want him giving Jensen advice on what to have for lunch, never mind on his interpretation of a new character. But I have to trust that Jensen a) knows what he needs better than I do, and b) was just being his usual, self-effacing and supportive-of-his-peers guy he always is, in giving credit to Rich partly because he just finished directing him. The question was about getting good advice from a director and Rich is right there, backstage.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Given that Rich directed two of my least favourite episodes of the series, both of which were less than stellar for Dean (IMO of course), I'm not sure I want him giving Jensen advice on what to have for lunch, never mind on his interpretation of a new character. But I have to trust that Jensen a) knows what he needs better than I do, and b) was just being his usual, self-effacing and supportive-of-his-peers guy he always is, in giving credit to Rich partly because he just finished directing him. The question was about getting good advice from a director and Rich is right there, backstage.

Or c) (Given Dabb's flippant response which is why Jensen had to ask Rich in the first place) Jensen is struggling with the writing and he isn't sure what they want him to do with his character so he was grasping at straws.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Or c) (Dabb's flippant response which is why Jensen had to ask Rich in the first place) Jensen is struggling with the writing and he isn't sure what they want him to do with his character so he was grasping at straws.

My money is on this scenario.

[catrox14]

So Jensen said they just finished an episode about Dean's favorite horror movie and it's probably "Mint Condition" which suggests it's about a car.  What horror movies are about cars? Off the top of my head

Christine: About a car that is possessed.  Could Baby get possessed and that's what draws Dean out of Michael?

Duel: Tanker truck driven by a serial killer. Steven Spielberg directed. Maybe Baby is stolen by a killer monster?

Maximum Overdrive: Possessed tanker trucks

Jeepers Creepers: It had a decked out truck that was driven by the killer, I think?

Of those options, Christine seems the most likely and Dean did name drop that film back in s10 with that terrible Halt and Catch Fire episode.

I'm going with Christine and Baby gets possessed. 

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, devlin said:

But then again thinking about it, I cannot for the life of me think why Richard would be interested in the Michael storyline unless it comes back to how dean is a bad brother, or it is crucial to setting up another jp storyline ?

I can see him caring because of Gabriel and that somehow it circles back to Gabriel not really being dead.

[Bobcatkitten]

I don't know that Speight was interested in the storyline per se. Jensen said he was uncomfortable in the role and asked Richard as a longtime friend, director and actor to look out for him during episode 2, which Speight was directing. He gave him some insights that helped Jensen find the groove as Michael.

 

As for the horror episode, Jensen said they deal with one of Dean's favorite horror movie characters and it brings up other movie icons. There was nothing specific about what it is. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I don't know that Speight was interested in the storyline per se. Jensen said he was uncomfortable in the role and asked Richard as a longtime friend, director and actor to look out for him during episode 2, which Speight was directing. He gave him some insights that helped Jensen find the groove as Michael.

 

That's how I understood Jensen's answer as well.

[SueB]

18 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen mentioned that he called Dabb and Dabb was basically like "you got this."

But then again Jensen had to remind Dabb that Michael had powers.  So that speaks volumes about how much thought Dabb put into this storyline- none.

Item in bold is fandom conjecture on the board. The actual conversation was that Jensen felt that Michael wouldn’t get his hands dirty in a fight and cleared that approach to the fight with Dabb before they choreographed the fight scene. 

Further, after the dailies came in, and before the first episode was complete, Jensen specifically mentioned he got performance feedback.  He didn’t say from whom.  

So to imply no one but Rich was interested enough to give him feedback is flat out false.  

And leads to this kind of reaction:

18 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is straight up bullshit. The freaking showrunner can't give a main some insight when he asks for it and he has to go to a sometime director for input? I wonder what kind of answer Dabb would have given if Mark Pellegrino had called for character motivation. He probably would have talked until he was hoarse. JFC.

Because either DeeDee79 doesn’t know it’s your interpretation of what Jensen said or she’s remembers that it’s only an opinion and is outraged for another reason. 

As for Rich’s opinion, Jensen had praised his directing in the past.  I’m not surprised he sought the advice of Rich, a peer in directing.  Honestly, IMO, everyone looks up to Jensen and he maybe he’s concerned that people may be telling him what he wants to hear.  He’s nervous IMO.  And stated he was nervous at the SDCC round table interviews. I think he’s nailing it out of the park (per usual) but even the most confident person likes feedback when they are out of their comfort zone.  

Edited August 27, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

So I listened to Jensen's full answer about asking Speight for help with Michael.  He said he asked him to have his back to make sure was on track to what he (Jensen) wanted Michael to be.  That made me feel much better that the audio of the SDCC clip and the picture of Michael!Dean is going to be reflected in Speight's ep.  Jensen also said that something that implied Michael wasn't that prominent in 14.1  unless his being cagey, and it almost sounds like Michael!Dean won't be prominent until 14.2 and then be done by 14.4.  Sigh.

It kind of sounds like how in 10.1, demon!Dean didn't show up until about 1to 15 minutes into the episode but was more featured in 10.2. 10.1 was more about Sam finding out Dean was a demon and then pursuing him whereas 10.2 was very demon!Dean and Crowley focused.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

What horror movies are about cars?

Though I haven't seen any of them (I think there was a sequel and maybe a remake), I think The Hitcher also heavily features vehicles, trucks in particular. There was also that grindhouse movie (Oh, it is called Grindhouse, now that I looked it up, and the car segment is "Deathproof") with a guy who drove a car that he trapped some women in, using the car as a death trap. I know, I know, my knowledge of movie trivia is scattered and weird.

But I think you're right: Christine is probably the most likely if it is car related and horror... although somehow Baby being the heroine of a Maximum Overdrive type plot where other cars are possessed in a remote closed off town,*** but Baby somehow escapes the possession, would also - in my opinion - have the potential to be awesome.

I'm actually kind of surprised that there isn't more car-related horror (at least that I'm aware of). Hmm.

*** A la Tremors - which I wouldn't mind seeing Supernatural do an homage too, since I thought that movie and the premise - where the monsters kept adapting their behavior and the people had to also adjust so as not to be monster food - was rather clever and entertaining. Plus Kevin Bacon.

[Myrelle]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So I listened to Jensen's full answer about asking Speight for help with Michael.  He said he asked him to have his back to make sure was on track to what he (Jensen) wanted Michael to be.  That made me feel much better that the audio of the SDCC clip and the picture of Michael!Dean is going to be reflected in Speight's ep.  Jensen also said that something that implied Michael wasn't that prominent in 14.1  unless his being cagey, and it almost sounds like Michael!Dean won't be prominent until 14.2 and then be done by 14.4.  Sigh.

It kind of sounds like how in 10.1, demon!Dean didn't show up until about 1to 15 minutes into the episode but was more featured in 10.2. 10.1 was more about Sam finding out Dean was a demon and then pursuing him whereas 10.2 was very demon!Dean and Crowley focused.

This is why I just can't listen to much of what's supposedly coming up for Dean in S14. Comic Con really took the air out of the Mean storyline for me and I just can't get my hopes up for it any longer-not after finding out that it's going to be told via flashbacks after an early live exit for the character, anyway. Boo! Hiss!! to Dabb and co. for  apparently once again taking the easy way out with yet another promising Dean storyline.

[Bobcatkitten]

Where did we get the idea that the horror movie was car related? He didn't say that. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Where did we get the idea that the horror movie was car related? He didn't say that. 

I never said he said it. I'm speculating based on the name of the episode being "Mint Condition" according to other spoilers. That's all.

Edited August 27, 2018 by catrox14

[Bobcatkitten]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I never said he said it. I'm speculating based on the name of the episode being "Mint Condition" according to other spoilers. That's all.

Ah, I didn't know the episode title and was so confused. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Ah, I didn't know the episode title and was so confused. 

. If you look upthread I think @ILoveReading posted some spoilers about the titles and I mentioned the title in my original post speculating on the premise of Dean's favorite horror movie. I could also be 100% wrong as it is just my speculation :)

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Item in bold is fandom conjecture on the board. The actual conversation was that Jensen felt that Michael wouldn’t get his hands dirty in a fight and cleared that approach to the fight with Dabb before they choreographed the fight scene. 

I watched that interview several times because I like Jensen talking about his craft.  He specifically says there was a fight scene written.   Therefore that to me is fact that a hand to hand fight was in the script.  Jensen called Dabb and said "Michael wouldn't get his hands dirty."

Dabb is writing an storyline about the planet's most powerful arch angel who is supposed to be even more powerful and imposing because he has his true vessel.  IMO, it is fact that the actor shouldn't have to call the show runner and say, "wouldn't/shouldn't he use his powers here."  It should have occurred to Dabb without gentle reminders, firm reminders, collaboration or anything.  I'm sure Pellegrino didn't have to call the writer of his episode to clear direction when he wiped bunch of angels  with the snap of his fingers. 

So I feel comfortable stating that Jensen had to remind him.  Because of these reasons.  

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Further, after the dailies came in, and before the first episode was complete, Jensen specifically mentioned he got performance feedback.  He didn’t say from whom.  

Clearly the feedback didn't really clear much up for him.   Because he was still at a lose in episode 2 as to  how he should play the character.  That says several things to me.   IIRC, he mentioned at the con last week he's still not sure how to approach the character.  So, whoever gave him advice after ep 1 was lacking. 

1. There wasn't enough Michael in episode 1 for him to really get a feel for the character.  (likely as he didn't seem to film much based on sightings of him in Austin)

2. The scenes he did film didn't provide a clear direction as to Michael's motivations. 

3. Something in episode 2 contradicted something in episode 1 on the advice Jensen got about where to take the character. 

Or with this crew, I'd put money on all 3. 

As for Dabb having no interest, again, a conclusion based on things I've heard.  He talks more about the Waywards than he does Michael, Jensen not even sure how to approach the character.  The character gone before he even really has a chance to get started.  I heard contradictory things about the length of time Dean is missing from a couple of weeks to a couple of months.  Ross-Lemming said we wouldn't see the car the first half of the season but its clearly back in episode 3.  If they can't get on the same page with even those small basic things, it doesn't suggest they put a lot of thought or effort into the rest of the story. 

Unless the board rule changed we are not required to conclusively provide proof.    I feel I made a strong argument for my conclusions and didn't just pull them out of thin air. 

[devlin]

If I was an actor and went to the show runner wanting advice on how to approach a character and they turned round and said just do your thing, I don’t know about anybody else but I would feel disheartened. That to me suggests that it doesn’t really matter what you do,it won’t impact the story as a whole. This character is just a way to keep you entertained while the real story is being told. Not saying that’s how Jensen felt or how anyone else would feel, it’s just my take on it.

[Bobcatkitten]

19 minutes ago, devlin said:

If I was an actor and went to the show runner wanting advice on how to approach a character and they turned round and said just do your thing, I don’t know about anybody else but I would feel disheartened. That to me suggests that it doesn’t really matter what you do,it won’t impact the story as a whole. This character is just a way to keep you entertained while the real story is being told. Not saying that’s how Jensen felt or how anyone else would feel, it’s just my take on it.

I'm not a Dabb fan but it could also mean he absolutely trusts Jensen's instincts as an actor. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm not a Dabb fan but it could also mean he absolutely trusts Jensen's instincts as an actor. 

I'm sure he does trust him. He'd be a fool if he didn't. It still doesn't preclude Dabb from offering some insight to help the actor achieve what the story is seeking. There is hands off and there is not being helpful when asked.

[ILoveReading]

I believe it was the same thing with Demon Dean.  Yes, that wasn't Dabb but Jensen said no on really gave him direction over the character and let it up to him to decide how he wanted to play it.

It's great that the writers have faith in Jensen but at the same times, Demon Dean didn't really impact the story that much.  It's not exactly enouraging that the show runner has no real clear direction on how Jensen should steer the character.  Because if you need him to act a certain way for plot reasons that that would have to be spelled out. 

That doesn't sound like what is happening here.    I still think this story is more about establishing Sam as the new leader and Dean needed to be out of the way for that to happen.

[gonzosgirrl]

58 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm not a Dabb fan but it could also mean he absolutely trusts Jensen's instincts as an actor. 

I agree. And I also think Jensen is being his usual humble self. He has to talk about something, and he's always praising/talking up his peers and taking very little credit himself. See: his go-to comments about The End. An Emmy-worthy performance, and without fail he only talks/jokes about how he told Kripke to never do that to him again, and that Jared stole the show with his Samifer. That call to the showrunners about Michael using his powers tells me that Jensen has thought plenty about this character, and doesn't need advice on his portrayal. But he's also human, and we all need some reassurance and confidence boosting at times. If Rich gave him that, then good on Rich. And if Singer didn't and Jensen needed it, then screw Singer. But I honestly think it`s mostly just Jensen talking.

[Res]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I believe it was the same thing with Demon Dean.  Yes, that wasn't Dabb but Jensen said no on really gave him direction over the character and let it up to him to decide how he wanted to play it.

It's great that the writers have faith in Jensen but at the same times, Demon Dean didn't really impact the story that much.  It's not exactly enouraging that the show runner has no real clear direction on how Jensen should steer the character.  Because if you need him to act a certain way for plot reasons that that would have to be spelled out. 

That doesn't sound like what is happening here.    I still think this story is more about establishing Sam as the new leader and Dean needed to be out of the way for that to happen.

Bolded part - I agree but that has been happening for awhile with the writers. I remember Jensen talk at a really early con about how Sera used to write lines for him that she thought she should really work better or rewrite but then she'd shrug and say something like "Jensen will make it work." He said at first he was really enjoying the compliment but then he thought about it again and stated jokingly, "Thanks a lot, Sera, for making my job harder!"

Italic - I 100% agree that I believe that they couldn't careless about Dean's part in the S14 sl other than clear the way for "Leader Sam". 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Res

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Res said:

I 100% agree that I believe that they couldn't careless about Dean's part in the S14 sl other than clear the way for "Leader Sam". 

I would have to see it to believe it. In my opinion, if they had really wanted this to happen, there were so many ways it could have happened last season when there was supposedly momentum. But in the end, one of the best times it could have happened, the opposite happened. If this was the main goal, why would one of the most lasting impressions of last season be a series of events showing the opposite of what that goal supposedly was? And why wait an entire season after the supposed introduction to take it up again?

I'm expecting this is going to be more like an "All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt 1" redux. I think we're going to see Sam struggling - hence the I think hinted at scruffy appearance - and he'll finally get it done, but at the same time, he's going to be glad to have Dean back, because he missed Dean's input when the going got rough. And then as usual, they will fall right back into their old patterns again.

This is what has almost always happened., and when it doesn't or that balance seems to be upset - as in season 4 - Sam seems almost resentful... and generally bad things happen. Even when Sam supposedly didn't trust Dean and was understandably angry with him - in "Sharp Teeth," the second episode after "Road Trip" - they fall together on a case, Dean tries to ditch Sam, Sam objects and complains, but as the case is going on, Dean kills a werewolf and Dean goes, without a second thought, (paraphrase) "Sam, you clean this up and get Garth. I'm going to the church," as he goes on to the next aspect of the case... And Sam does it without a second thought. No "Why shouldn't you clean this up? You killed it." Not to mention, Dean should've been trying to make things up to Sam at this particular juncture, not ordering him around, but... that's their normal. That's how things are. And generally unless Sam has a reason to object - like if Sam thinks Dean is wrong about something critical on a case or he's really, really passionate about something he disagrees with Dean about (I include Jack in this category, and it's why I think Sam wanted Dean to get on board - to get back to their "normal") - that's usually what they do. And most fans didn't even think about how Dean telling Sam to clean up the werewolf looked in terms of what happened two episodes ago - I didn't at first, until someone else on a discussion board pointed it out - because this is their normal. And the writers, too, seemed to think that this was their normal... even during that time of upheaval between them when theoretically Dean should've been on "double secret probation." And that wasn't even the first time. The same kind of thing ended up happening in "The Mentalists," too. Sam may break out the "stop bossing me around" when he gets annoyed, but in my opinion, it's lip service at best and soon forgotten.

So in my opinion, it's not going to be easy to change that normal without things looking awkward and unorganic. If not even Sam finding out about Gadreel upset that normal, I'm not really sure this scenario with Michael would either. In my opinion anyway.

Edited August 28, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So I feel comfortable stating that Jensen had to remind him.  Because of these reasons.  

Unless the board rule changed we are not required to conclusively provide proof.    I feel I made a strong argument for my conclusions and didn't just pull them out of thin air. 

No one is required to provide proof on any conclusions they draw.  I never asked you to or suggested you even reopen the discussion. The original post was not identified as "conclusions". I pointed out these were your conclusions, not facts and that I have a different POV. As far as I know there's no board rule that says I have to accept your reasoned opinion as fact.  I also did not remotely suggest you pulled your idea out of thin air. I understand WHY you believe you have drawn the only possible conclusion.  But I disagree. And I didn't pull my opinion out of thin air either.

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

No one is required to provide proof on any conclusions they draw.  I never asked you to or suggested you even reopen the discussion. The original post was not identified as "conclusions". I pointed out these were your conclusions, not facts and that I have a different POV. As far as I know there's no board rule that says I have to accept your reasoned opinion as fact.  I also did not remotely suggest you pulled your idea out of thin air. I understand WHY you believe you have drawn the only possible conclusion.  But I disagree. And I didn't pull my opinion out of thin air either.

   I worded it the way I did because its how I feel and to me it is a fact.   People can agree/disagree with facts.    No where in my post did I say someone couldn't have a different opinion or make it impossible to disagree.  As far as I know my original post was within the board rules.   So I'm not really sure what your getting at here.  But this isn't a place to discuss this, so we'll agree to disagree and move on. 

[catrox14]

I've never expected nor interpreted any speculation in this thread as "factual" since it's all ...bitter speculation from spoilers.  And even links to spoilers/foilers, be they interviews, set pics, etc, aren't 100% facts until an episode airs and said spoiler is confirmed or not. Even the producers and writers and cast members say somewhat conflicting things about the same topic like with Michael!Dean or whether Lucifer/Pellegrino is coming back, for example. No wonder we, who are just fans of the show come to different conclusions. As far as I know none of us have insider info, and well, if anyone does, fess up, cause I will have a lot more questions!

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

would have to see it to believe it. In my opinion, if they had really wanted this to happen, there were so many ways it could have happened last season when there was supposedly momentum. But in the end, one of the best times it could have happened, the opposite happened. If this was the main goal, why would one of the most lasting impressions of last season be a series of events showing the opposite of what that goal supposedly was? And why wait an entire season after the supposed introduction to take it up again

I think it's all part of Sam's Reluctant Hero Journey To a 4 Star General Sam Winchester.

IMO, s14 is likely the beginning of the end, even if they go to 15, for instance.  That is to say the 3rd or maybe 4th act of out Sam's story. Sam has reached the point where he now willingly takes on leading others, has willingly chosen to mentor/parent Jack, and stake his claim with Dean that he's no longer going to accept being at the kiddie table, and now has duel goals in, I'm assuming, saving Dean from Michael AND shaping the AU refugees into hunters.

Sam's had the "Big Moments" that set his course to General Winchester, specifically, 12.22 with his speech, with one of them featuring the supposed other General, Gen. Dean Winchester (almost ret'd) telling him "you got this" before sending him to fight without him. That's a huge moment that I don't see them walking back other than some small missteps to getting his 2nd star, so to speak.

Yes, Sam agreed to let Lucifer keep him alive but he didn't do it for selfish reasons, IMO.  He wanted to save Mary, Jack and the other rebels. That was the goal when they all crossed over.  They did not anticipate that vampires existed in that world much less that Sam would be bitten and eventually turned, much less that Dean would have left Sam's body behind for a hot minute.  But Berens, for plot purposes decided that Sam had to be separated to give Lucifer a shot at seeing his son, because the reality is that was the whole point in that episode. To bring Lucifer to Jack.  So for me that wasn't Sam fucking up, it was Sam making the best choice out of bad choices. 

I can see where it might seem like Sam's decision making was undermined for plot but I don't think they'll continue to undermine it because Sam in 13.23 was the one that was leading the charge to protect what's her name, the teenage girl that suddenly was SO important and protecting Jack.  Sam apparently got through to Gabriel as well, who did kill Asmodeus, even if Gabriel flew the coop afterward. IMO, that didn't make Sam incompetent or a bad leader since it was all to set up Gabriel to have another redemption since the first IMO GOOD redemption was undermined by Dabb et al just to have a reason for Gabriel to come back.

I think they have established Sam as a leader now and even leaders have missteps but nothing that would cause him to be stripped of his status as Official Leader or at minimum Official Co-Leader.  I really don't see Dabb et al, destroying that unless they do an about face on Sam and have him go dark side, and become the Boy King of demons etc...that would be a swerve but I don't think they will do that. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's all part of Sam's Reluctant Hero Journey To a 4 Star General Sam Winchester.

IMO, s14 is likely the beginning of the end, even if they go to 15, for instance.  That is to say the 3rd or maybe 4th act of out Sam's story. Sam has reached the point where he now willingly takes on leading others, has willingly chosen to mentor/parent Jack, and stake his claim with Dean that he's no longer going to accept being at the kiddie table, and now has duel goals in, I'm assuming, saving Dean from Michael AND shaping the AU refugees into hunters.

Sam's had the "Big Moments" that set his course to General Winchester, specifically, 12.22 with his speech, with one of them featuring the supposed other General, Gen. Dean Winchester (almost ret'd) telling him "you got this" before sending him to fight without him. That's a huge moment that I don't see them walking back other than some small missteps to getting his 2nd star, so to speak.

Yes, Sam agreed to let Lucifer keep him alive but he didn't do it for selfish reasons, IMO.  He wanted to save Mary, Jack and the other rebels. That was the goal when they all crossed over.  They did not anticipate that vampires existed in that world much less that Sam would be bitten and eventually turned, much less that Dean would have left Sam's body behind for a hot minute.  But Berens, for plot purposes decided that Sam had to be separated to give Lucifer a shot at seeing his son, because the reality is that was the whole point in that episode. To bring Lucifer to Jack.  So for me that wasn't Sam fucking up, it was Sam making the best choice out of bad choices. 

I can see where it might seem like Sam's decision making was undermined for plot but I don't think they'll continue to undermine it because Sam in 13.23 was the one that was leading the charge to protect what's her name, the teenage girl that suddenly was SO important and protecting Jack.  Sam apparently got through to Gabriel as well, who did kill Asmodeus, even if Gabriel flew the coop afterward. IMO, that didn't make Sam incompetent or a bad leader since it was all to set up Gabriel to have another redemption since the first IMO GOOD redemption was undermined by Dabb et al just to have a reason for Gabriel to come back.

I think they have established Sam as a leader now and even leaders have missteps but nothing that would cause him to be stripped of his status as Official Leader or at minimum Official Co-Leader.  I really don't see Dabb et al, destroying that unless they do an about face on Sam and have him go dark side, and become the Boy King of demons etc...that would be a swerve but I don't think they will do that. 

IA with this entire post-especially the bolded part-and Singer and Dabb have both pretty much stated this in most of the interviews that they've given out since Comic Con albeit in a more succinct manner ie., Sam will be in the Leader role that we've been steering him towards for the last couple of seasons-not their exact words, but close enough, AFAIC.

The problem I'm having with this is that they have more than paid lip-service to Sam being/becoming a leader, at this point, but what about Dean? If Sam is to become a Co-Leader then they would have to establish through dialogue that Dean has been and still is a Leader, too-thus the question that's on every Dean fan's mind in my circle of fandom-what's going to happen with Dean after the Michael arc is over and/or put on hold after episode 6(still very early in the season) when we know Rowena does something that lands her smack in the middle of all this.

The disappointment of the shortened live Mean sl has only lead to the usual Dean fandom fears since the end of S5; anything else would be treading too close to B vs J territory, I think, so I'll just leave it at that.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, Sam agreed to let Lucifer keep him alive but he didn't do it for selfish reasons, IMO.  He wanted to save Mary, Jack and the other rebels. That was the goal when they all crossed over.  They did not anticipate that vampires existed in that world much less that Sam would be bitten and eventually turned, much less that Dean would have left Sam's body behind for a hot minute.  But Berens, for plot purposes decided that Sam had to be separated to give Lucifer a shot at seeing his son, because the reality is that was the whole point in that episode. To bring Lucifer to Jack.  So for me that wasn't Sam fucking up, it was Sam making the best choice out of bad choices. 

I can see where it might seem like Sam's decision making was undermined for plot but I don't think they'll continue to undermine it because Sam in 13.23 was the one that was leading the charge to protect what's her name, the teenage girl that suddenly was SO important and protecting Jack.  Sam apparently got through to Gabriel as well, who did kill Asmodeus, even if Gabriel flew the coop afterward. IMO, that didn't make Sam incompetent or a bad leader since it was all to set up Gabriel to have another redemption since the first IMO GOOD redemption was undermined by Dabb et al just to have a reason for Gabriel to come back.

I think they have established Sam as a leader now and even leaders have missteps but nothing that would cause him to be stripped of his status as Official Leader or at minimum Official Co-Leader.  I really don't see Dabb et al, destroying that unless they do an about face on Sam and have him go dark side, and become the Boy King of demons etc...that would be a swerve but I don't think they will do that. 

I'm not sure I remember what you are referring to in terms of Maggie in episode 3.23. It was actually Jack who did most of the protecting of her in that episode, because Maggie was killed, and it was Jack who insisted that Lucifer bring her back to life. The only thing Sam might've done in terms of Maggie was tell Maggie, Mary and Bobby to run when Michael was showing up, but that was kind of a no brainer, not really what I would call leadership, and Dean added that they would buy them some time. But it was actually Bobby who convinced Mary to go, not Sam. And Sam's then subsequent idea to go running straight at Michael unarmed was stupid to say the least... At least Dean bothered to find an angel blade first, which even if it wouldn't kill him, might've slowed Michael down.

I understand that the plot dictated that Jack and Lucifer get together, but it was interesting to me, that almost all of the decisions necessary to make that happen, the narrative gave to Sam, even though it didn't necessarily have to be that way. There could have been any number of ways to do that. They could've even had the vampires be a total surprise. Why even set it up that Sam gets a huge warning, but makes the decision to go anyway? To me, it seems that there had to be a reason.

And I'm not even talking here about just Lucifer, I'm talking about almost all of the decisions that Sam make along the way. The narrative made a point of pointing out that they were Sam's plans... and then they all went badly. And almost all of the actual saving and smart tactics taken were done by Dean. I'll break it down, but I'll take it to a more appropriate thread. I think the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread just to be on the safe side.

[Res]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure I remember what you are referring to in terms of Maggie in episode 3.23. It was actually Jack who did most of the protecting of her in that episode, because Maggie was killed, and it was Jack who insisted that Lucifer bring her back to life. The only thing Sam might've done in terms of Maggie was tell Maggie, Mary and Bobby to run when Michael was showing up, but that was kind of a no brainer, not really what I would call leadership, and Dean added that they would buy them some time. But it was actually Bobby who convinced Mary to go, not Sam. And Sam's then subsequent idea to go running straight at Michael unarmed was stupid to say the least... At least Dean bothered to find an angel blade first, which even if it wouldn't kill him, might've slowed Michael down.

I understand that the plot dictated that Jack and Lucifer get together, but it was interesting to me, that almost all of the decisions necessary to make that happen, the narrative gave to Sam, even though it didn't necessarily have to be that way. There could have been any number of ways to do that. They could've even had the vampires be a total surprise. Why even set it up that Sam gets a huge warning, but makes the decision to go anyway? To me, it seems that there had to be a reason.

And I'm not even talking here about just Lucifer, I'm talking about almost all of the decisions that Sam make along the way. The narrative made a point of pointing out that they were Sam's plans... and then they all went badly. And almost all of the actual saving and smart tactics taken were done by Dean. I'll break it down, but I'll take it to a more appropriate thread. I think the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread just to be on the safe side.

While I understand what you are stating here, IMO this is the traditional "knocking you down to build you back up" type scenario. Have the initially reluctant leader lead and there will be missteps. There will be bad decisions as part of the learning curve, much like the new Kirk having to lose men in order to be a better (less cocky) captain. They do this a lot in shows, like Top Gun, Officer and a Gentleman, etc. and I do think this is what they are talking about as far as Sam.

On the positive side, though, at least Sam has a solid storyline for the season.

I just wish I could find one, just ONE, favorite show where the writers like/love my favorite character as much as I like/love them.

[ILoveReading]

Quote

Question: Is there any scoop on what direction Supernatural‘s Michael/Dean storyline will take? —Adder
Ausiello: At San Diego Comic-Con, Jared Padalecki said he had yet to shoot any scenes with co-star Jensen Ackles, and here’s why: “There will be very limited interaction [between Sam and Michael/Dean], and some of that is because Michael has his own agenda,” co-showrunner Andrew Dabb explains. “Some of that is because, without a lot of backup, putting Sam in a room with Michael is going to only end one way, with Michael being as powerful as he is. Certainly [over] the first half of the season, there’s going to be a lot more Michael/Sam interaction. But in the first few episodes, Michael — and by extension Dean — are kind of off in a little bit of their own story.”

Ask a question about Dean...get a response about Sam.  lol.  Typical for this crew.  I would have liked some clues about that "off on a little bit of their own story."

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Certainly [over] the first half of the season, there’s going to be a lot more Michael/Sam interaction.

So if they don't/won't put Michael and Sam in the same room in the beginning (because Michael would kill Sam seems to be the implication here?), but Sam & Michael have 'a lot more interaction' - then how? If the story is told in flashback, they already said they weren't together. If it's in real time and Dean is back, then is someone else the vessel? Blech.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So if they don't/won't put Michael and Sam in the same room in the beginning (because Michael would kill Sam seems to be the implication here?), but Sam & Michael have 'a lot more interaction' - then how? If the story is told in flashback, they already said they weren't together. If it's in real time and Dean is back, then is someone else the vessel? Blech.

What would Michael want with Sam?  It sounds like this story is going to end up more Sam focused than Dean focused. 

[Myrelle]

51 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Ask a question about Dean...get a response about Sam.  lol.  Typical for this crew.  I would have liked some clues about that "off on a little bit of their own story."

 

51 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Ask a question about Dean...get a response about Sam.  lol.  Typical for this crew.  I would have liked some clues about that "off on a little bit of their own story."

You and me both.

 

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So if they don't/won't put Michael and Sam in the same room in the beginning (because Michael would kill Sam seems to be the implication here?), but Sam & Michael have 'a lot more interaction' - then how? If the story is told in flashback, they already said they weren't together. If it's in real time and Dean is back, then is someone else the vessel? Blech.

 

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

What would Michael want with Sam?  It sounds like this story is going to end up more Sam focused than Dean focused. 

I am expecting this and have been ever since Comic Con happened.