These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I always thought Michael was pretty fascinating because he was so....IMO, different in his attitude.  I thought since he promised to not leave Dean a drooling mess, that he had some kind of compassion.
@AwesomO4000, thanks for that explanation.

I think back to Kripke saying he always wanted good!Dean vs evil!Sam, at this point I think he's the only writer who deigned to make Sam bad borderline evil. And given how I think Dabb views Dean, I wouldn't put it past Dabb to decide that Michael is actually the evil one and we'll end up with Evil!Dean vs Good!Sam, which is the only reason I wouldn't want Michael!Dean.

Yup. I think a lot of things boil down to Lucifer=Sam/Jared and Michael=Dean/Jensen. Everything ripples out from there, for good or bad, depending on who's casting the stone.

[SueB]

IDK, I'm a bit torn.  I generally trust Jensen's judgement*.  If he's stoked, its probably a good storyline (whatever it is).  Having said that, Michael was a dick beforehand.  Anti Free Will and believed Angels were superior to humans.  Not interest in a bigotted rant from him.  But I would expect him to have changed by the cage -- insane, more reckless, completely subdued.  Regardless, if it's a longer arc, I'd want it to have some value to Dean versus simply use him as an "angel condum".  

 

 

*Except gross food schtick.  That's not my favorite.

[Pondlass1]

It's funny - I was on YouTube last night and happened to catch a Vancouver con panel I think from 2010 or maybe 2009 (Jensen is in a striped shirt that is actually tucked into his jeans).  And Jared turns to Jensen and says "I've been Lucifer, but you haven't had a chance to be Michael yet have you?"

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

IDK, I'm a bit torn.  I generally trust Jensen's judgement*.  If he's stoked, its probably a good storyline (whatever it is).  Having said that, Michael was a dick beforehand.  Anti Free Will and believed Angels were superior to humans.  Not interest in a bigotted rant from him.  But I would expect him to have changed by the cage -- insane, more reckless, completely subdued.  Regardless, if it's a longer arc, I'd want it to have some value to Dean versus simply use him as an "angel condum".  

 

 

*Except gross food schtick.  That's not my favorite.

I think he's stoked at the opportunity to portray a new character and for the challenge it brings.  He's said in the past that he really likes opportunities to stretch his acting muscles. 

I doubt either he or the writers have any clue what the storyline will be next season.

Edited April 24, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I still don't actually believe that Michael is coming back, although I am not sure why.  But if the writers do bring him back, and make any effort at all, the last thing I think the character would be is uninteresting. Just look at the discussion here, and the different views. Why did he want the Apocalypse? Was he a "good son"? Why did he have such faith that things would work out as they should? Was he actually the greatest evil mastermind in the history of the universe (although it kind of boggles my mind that someone who believes that about Michael could find him "less complex" and "more dull" than Lucifer the whiny toddler.) The show's absolute determination to keep such a powerful, central character completely out of the story has only made the idea of him coming back more intriguing. Let's crack him out of the Cage and let him speak for himself! To me he is a mysterious figure whose character development could go in unexpected ways, and I think that could be a good thing for the show.

+1000 to this post.

And IMO, on this show if you're comparing two characters and one has been well-developed by the writing for great parts of numerous seasons and the other has had very few appearances over 13 seasons with little to no development even attempted, I also don't understand how one can deem one of them more dull or uninteresting than the other-so I'd really, really, REALLY! like to see what develops with Dean!Michael and Dean and Michael(especially if Dad has just left him in the cage to rot) just as some in the greater and more general fandom, if not here, enjoyed seeing what developed with Sam!Lucifer and Sam and Lucifer over the years.

And I think it could be a great thing for the show.

[Pondlass1]

I wonder how they're planning to do it??? - if that's what they're planning to do.

I'd prefer Dean to be Dean but maybe take on Michael's mythical and supernatural powers .... than him become Michael and Dean's not steering the boat.

*Hope Jensen gets to wield a sword.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I doubt either he or the writers have any clue what the storyline will be next season.

Agreed. Although, if it happens, we should get an idea of Michael's state of mind immediately after being released or perhaps even while he's in the cage.

 

28 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'd prefer Dean to be Dean but maybe take on Michael's mythical and supernatural powers .... than him become Michael and Dean's not steering the boat.

Jensen has said that this character is not going to be version of Dean, so this scenario is out, IMO.

Possession is almost a must in this case, but there is much they can do with possession as we've seen on this show.

And we know that Dean will eventually be back, so I'm not worried in the least about a possession storyline. In fact, I'd welcome it for the same reason that others have stated-for the challenge and acting opportunity that it would finally give to Jensen.

28 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

*Hope Jensen gets to wield a sword.

You and me both!

Edited April 24, 2018 by Myrelle

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

ossession is almost a must in this case,

Well, good luck to whoever is possessing Dean, then.  He's not exactly a tolerant host.  There's going to be a continuous struggle for control.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well, good luck to whoever is possessing Dean, then.  He's not exactly a tolerant host.  There's going to be a continuous struggle for control.

Maybe. But maybe not if Michael, like Gadreel did to Sam, places Dean in a dream/fantasy that he's very happy in-like hunting with his entire family still alive and well and fighting the good fight all together and with no memories of much else.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Myrelle

[Pondlass1]

While it would be nice for Dean to be in a dream/fantasy where he's possessed and happy, it's not particularly exciting viewing.  Dean saying yes to any possession seems way off.  He's just not the type - even if it means saving the world.

If it is Dean/Michael and how they're going to do it is fun to speculate for all of us.  I'm just crossing everything that the writers don't let us (and Jensen) down. 

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

While it would be nice for Dean to be in a dream/fantasy where he's possessed and happy, it's not particularly exciting viewing.  Dean saying yes to any possession seems way off.  He's just not the type - even if it means saving the world.

If it is Dean/Michael and how they're going to do it is fun to speculate for all of us.  I'm just crossing everything that the writers don't let us (and Jensen) down. 

I can see a scenario where Dean agrees to let Michael use his vessel to fight AU!Michael - one where they are out of options and this is the only way to save Mary/the world (I don't count Jack in there, because I feel like Jack could save himself at any given point). There would be guarantees made that Michael exit the premises once the fight is over, but he reneges and takes off with Dean's body (thus the spoiler pics). I am still mulling the possibility of OG Death, or The Empty being the one we see in those pics though. There's just something about the posture that screams an arrogance and swagger that we didn't see in Michael thus far.

[Myrelle]

40 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

While it would be nice for Dean to be in a dream/fantasy where he's possessed and happy, it's not particularly exciting viewing.  Dean saying yes to any possession seems way off.  He's just not the type - even if it means saving the world.

 

I'll just have agree to disagree on all of this. I think we've already actually been shown via the show, itself, that these statements aren't true, but MMV, of course.

We could get an episode where they switch back and forth between his dream world and the real world-something like What Is and What Should Never Be-which was one of the best episodes(if not THE best episode) that this show has ever given us, IMO-only this time Dean's dream world would involve hunting(his true calling, IMO) instead of the normal life.

And there would be hunts and monsters and demons and angels and family(including Castiel) in the dream world, while in the real world there would also be hunts and monsters and demons AND the angel war or angelic happenings and family.

There is so much potential for it to be the most exciting and moving viewing that we've ever seen on this show, including since the early years and seasons, and this because of the growth that all of the characters have gone through since then.

I've said it before and I'll say it again-this storyline could write itself, if Dabb and Singer would just allow it to-but there's the biggest rub, IMO.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

We could get an episode where they switch back and forth between his dream world and the real world-something like What Is and What Should Never Be-which was one of the best episodes(if not THE best episode) that this show has ever given us, IMO-only this time Dean's dream world would involve hunting(his true calling, IMO) instead of the normal life.

This could also help with the longevity of the storyline.  As they could use it to get around not having the brother separated too long issue by having eps in Dean's head that are basically cases of the week.  The book ends of the episodes could show us what real Sam is doing and how he's coping with Dean being gone. 

Then in the aftermath trying to leave Dean to sort out what is real and what isn't. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We could get an episode where they switch back and forth between his dream world and the real world-

I actually suggested something like this in a post a few days ago. It could work.  

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This could also help with the longevity of the storyline.  As they could use it to get around not having the brother separated too long issue by having eps in Dean's head that are basically cases of the week.  The book ends of the episodes could show us what real Sam is doing and how he's coping with Dean being gone. 

Then in the aftermath trying to leave Dean to sort out what is real and what isn't. 

He could also be 'fighting' in this dream world - knowing Michael (or whoever) is holding his body hostage, and fighting/looking for a way to wrest control back. Both these scenarios would require extra duty, if not double duty (a la, The End) from Jensen - but he's a pro and he's pumped about it. I'm certain he would put in the hours for a great story. There might even be some The End-type scenes if he's verbally 'fighting' with Michael (or whoever) to GTFO.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Then in the aftermath trying to leave Dean to sort out what is real and what isn't. 

Yes, and similar to the aftermath of the wall in Sam's head being broken.

 

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He could also be 'fighting' in this dream world - knowing Michael (or whoever) is holding his body hostage, and fighting/looking for a way to wrest control back

Or, again as in WIAWSNB, he might notice that some things were "off" in the dreamscape and begin to wonder but with the memories just not coming back to him as easily since Michael's hold would be much stronger than a djinn's.

[Aeryn13]

I really liked the short bit we saw of Michael in The Song Remains the Same. Beyond that, he was never given any chance to develop or have a presence on the show. Certainly not in 5.22 which was just about Sam defeating Lucifer - and getting the better of Michael while he was at it. 

So Michael is largely a blank slate. They also kept the AU-Michael a rather blank slate. Other than him being evil, there is really nothing to say so far. 

I wanted Dean and Michael to have as strong a presence in Season 5 as Sam and Lucifer. Alas, it didn`t happen so presumably this is my last chance. After so many disappointments, I just want a turn right now for Jensen to play a different character. And if it happens to be Michael, hallelujah. 

I get someone who isn`t into the idea but honestly, I suffered through so many Lucifer stories I didn`t want either. I doubt Lucifer is going any way, the showrunner is too enamored with him. If Michael got 10 % of that interest, I`d be overjoyed.  

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Having said that, Michael was a dick beforehand.  Anti Free Will and believed Angels were superior to humans. 

Except they were ALL dick angels. Including Cas at first. He's the only one that really changed. So I mean why is that a reason for Dean to not be Michael? Honestly, sometimes it seems like some folks just want Jensen/Dean to stay in his hole forever.

Given some folks already think Dean is a big ole dick, why shouldn't he be aligned with the angel loyal to his father, and the most badass warrior angel in Heaven? At this point, I would be fine with that. Let him fight AU Michael and beat him. I'm so down for that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except they were ALL dick angels. Including Cas at first. He's the only one that really changed. So I mean why is that a reason for Dean to not be Michael? Honestly, sometimes it seems like some folks just want Jensen/Dean to stay in his hole forever.

Given some folks already think Dean is a big ole dick, why shouldn't he be aligned with the angel loyal to his father, and the most badass warrior angel in Heaven? At this point, I would be fine with that. Let him fight AU Michael and beat him. I'm so down for that. 

I'm gonna answer in B v J.

[devlin]

Why is Michael so much worse than lucifer??? Lucifer supposedly subjected Sam to the worst torture ever imagined, sam apparently is haunted by visions of lucifer’s true face. Can someone please explain to me what Michael has done that is worse than that?

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/22/2018 at 10:22 AM, Pondlass1 said:

Oh, if only......

Dean not being Dean is an issue for MOTW's.  They managed with Soulless Sam, but DD lasted 3 weeks I think because they need Dean as Dean for the MOTWs and POV.

But it would be cool if it's some kind of inner thing that Dean must control. We know Dean is struggling but Sam and the others don't.  It comes and goes kind of thing. Jensen would rock it.  Struggling to maintain control...maybe being transported somewhere in dreams for days but it's only seconds in real time. He's out of place on that street, and no one seems aware of him. And he's not walking like Dean.  It's all so very intriguing.

  

I just hope they provide Jensen the challenge he deserves and the writing isn't too awful.  

They have actually experimented with separating the brothers a lot this season, usually with Dean going off to hunt alone with Sam back at the fort with Jack or cas. And guess what... it worked.  No fan complaints.  

Frankly I have always enjoyed the times Dean gets to playbwith any one of his friends.  Any Dean and Benny episode ruled season 8. Likewise any Dean and Crowley episode in season 9-10.  And I absolutely loved Dean and Ketch in AU Apocalypseland.

Anyhow, the Dean going solo acts... My guess it was a hint and the prelude for next season.

And my money is on a dual role...

They have to keep Supernatural fresh to keep it going and they have to keep Dean.  I don't see the show ending soon because it keeps on keeping on whilst the new kids,keep in losing their shine pretty darn quickly.

11 minutes ago, devlin said:

Why is Michael so much worse than lucifer??? Lucifer supposedly subjected Sam to the worst torture ever imagined, sam apparently is haunted by visions of lucifer’s true face. Can someone please explain to me what Michael has done that is worse than that?

Yeah.  I do not see it myself.  

They do not want Dean to get a big mytharc moment really is my guess.  Not anything that compares to what Sam had. I suspect it is a fangirl thing.  They want it to be something short and sweet.  

Edited April 24, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[SueB]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Except they were ALL dick angels. Including Cas at first. He's the only one that really changed. So I mean why is that a reason for Dean to not be Michael? Honestly, sometimes it seems like some folks just want Jensen/Dean to stay in his hole forever.

Given some folks already think Dean is a big ole dick, why shouldn't he be aligned with the angel loyal to his father, and the most badass warrior angel in Heaven? At this point, I would be fine with that. Let him fight AU Michael and beat him. I'm so down for that. 

Not me!  I adore Jensen/Dean.  I'm thrilled he's getting something cool to do.  Jensen playing a different character is cool so long as we eventually get Dean back.  And preferably with a complete memory of what happened.  But I'd like it if Dean got possessed by a nice guy that we trusted.  That's BORING (of course) and therefore unrealistic.  But I don't want him walking away with a shit-ton of guilt from this.  I'm reminded of "Angel" (again... ).  When the team took out his soul so they could ask Angelus questions, and Angelus got out, Angel DIDN'T apologize.  They knew what they were getting when they took the risk.  I don't know if we will be so lucky if Jensen plays a character wearing a Dean suit and bad shit happens.  Maybe they all agree to the risk and he counts on others to minimize fallout.  

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/21/2018 at 6:52 PM, Reganne said:

Jared said there were words that were spoken... not necessarily that he spoke them.  As for Michael, I don't see that going to Sam and I wouldn't want that.  At this point in the series, I want them to explore Sam's character.  I don't need to see Gadreel part 2.  I didn't like it the first time.

 

As for how long the arc will last for Dean,  I don't see it lasting as long as some people want it to, especially if it involves a totally different character than Dean.  They will want to get back to Dean.  As far as people playing other characters, the longest one was Gadreel and they got away with that bc Sam wasn't always Gadeeel and they could still use Sam.  

They are pretty clearly exploring Sam as the human brother. That was telegraphed last season by giving Mary all of the Sam tropes from his first big mytharc including pushing Lucifer through a rift.  Also Lucifer rejected him as a vessel and essentially no longer needs him as such.

Finally we see him taking on the caretaker role that Dean formally had big time tbis season. And we see him being given emotional arcs with several characters.

I agree. The character really needs this kind of writing.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[DeeDee79]

22 minutes ago, devlin said:

Why is Michael so much worse than lucifer??? Lucifer supposedly subjected Sam to the worst torture ever imagined, sam apparently is haunted by visions of lucifer’s true face. Can someone please explain to me what Michael has done that is worse than that?

Nothing, IMO. 

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They are pretty clearly exploring Sam as the human brother. That was telegraphed last season by giving Mary all of the Sam tropes from his first big mytharc including pushing Lucifer through a rift.  Also Lucifer rejected him as a vessel and essentially no longer needs him as such.

Finally we see him taking on the caretaker role that Dean formally had big time tbis season. And we see him being given emotional arcs with several characters.

I agree. The character really needs this kind of writing.

They do seem to be giving Sam more of a bonding role with other characters and they do have him helping to support the other characters which I do love TBH.  Though I wouldn't really call his scenes emotional yet.  More the other characters with his support.  Hopefully we will get there though.

[Reganne]

26 minutes ago, devlin said:

Why is Michael so much worse than lucifer??? Lucifer supposedly subjected Sam to the worst torture ever imagined, sam apparently is haunted by visions of lucifer’s true face. Can someone please explain to me what Michael has done that is worse than that?

He's not and I don't think people have a problem with Dean being possessed by a bad/evil character.  I think the problem some people see is that Michael isn't that interesting for them at the moment.  They would rather have a more interesting character to be present on the show if we are to lose Dean for a little bit.  I admit... at the moment from what I have seen from Michael, he doesn't really interest me but I have decided that I will hold judgment until I see whatever comes to fruition.  Maybe the years in hell will bring about a different side to the character that will make him appeal to me more.  

[ahrtee]

33 minutes ago, Reganne said:

He's not and I don't think people have a problem with Dean being possessed by a bad/evil character.  I think the problem some people see is that Michael isn't that interesting for them at the moment.  They would rather have a more interesting character to be present on the show if we are to lose Dean for a little bit.  I admit... at the moment from what I have seen from Michael, he doesn't really interest me but I have decided that I will hold judgment until I see whatever comes to fruition.  Maybe the years in hell will bring about a different side to the character that will make him appeal to me more.  

One of the "good" things about Michael being boring/not well defined, is that it means that Jensen can take the character in any direction he wants.  He can "create" a new Michael, with character beats (like phrasing and body language) based on Matt Cohen's version, but since we didn't really get to know anything about the character himself, we can hope that this Michael will be much more interesting (still half-crazy?  Determined to Make Heaven Great Again?  The Warrior going up against his alter ego?)  IMO the possibilities are endless. :)

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

One of the "good" things about Michael being boring/not well defined, is that it means that Jensen can take the character in any direction he wants.  He can "create" a new Michael, with character beats (like phrasing and body language) based on Matt Cohen's version, but since we didn't really get to know anything about the character himself, we can hope that this Michael will be much more interesting (still half-crazy?  Determined to Make Heaven Great Again?  The Warrior going up against his alter ego?)  IMO the possibilities are endless. :)

This is an excellent point. Honestly I don't understand how a character that we've only seen a handful of times for a few minutes can even be characterized as boring. He hasn't even been fleshed enough to even have a personality. Stating that he's the most evil thing to ever evil based on personal head canon doesn't replace what we've actually seen on screen. Lucifer, however, is a sadistic dick and we've been seeing it on screen since season 5. 

[BoxManLocke]

44 minutes ago, Reganne said:

He's not and I don't think people have a problem with Dean being possessed by a bad/evil character.  I think the problem some people see is that Michael isn't that interesting for them at the moment.  They would rather have a more interesting character to be present on the show if we are to lose Dean for a little bit.  I admit... at the moment from what I have seen from Michael, he doesn't really interest me but I have decided that I will hold judgment until I see whatever comes to fruition.  Maybe the years in hell will bring about a different side to the character that will make him appeal to me more.  

 

Well put. That's where I'm at. In season 5 they had the opportunity to really flesh out the character and didn't take it. Not sure why I should be interested eight years later. Like someone said earlier, yeah, he's pretty much a blank slate, but then why not give somebody new a chance ? Are people really attached to Michael as something other than a keepsake of when the show used to be at its peak ?

 

The writers (or, well, mostly Dabb) desperately trying to relive the show's glory days by continuously bringing back elements from season 5 screams lack of creativity to me. I'm all for Dean being "possessed" or whatever, but please, keep injecting fresh ideas into the show. Stop rehashing the same stuff.

 

No more Lucifer, no Michael and Dean possessed by whatever the hell you want. That's my perfect start for season 14.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

Well put. That's where I'm at. In season 5 they had the opportunity to really flesh out the character and didn't take it. Not sure why I should be interested eight years later. Like someone said earlier, yeah, he's pretty much a blank slate, but then why not give somebody new a chance ? Are people really attached to Michael as something other than a keepsake of when the show used to be at its peak ?

 

The writers (or, well, mostly Dabb) desperately trying to relive the show's glory days by continuously bringing back elements from season 5 screams lack of creativity to me. I'm all for Dean being "possessed" or whatever, but please, keep injecting fresh ideas into the show. Stop rehashing the same stuff.

 

No more Lucifer, no Michael and Dean possessed by whatever the hell you want. That's my perfect start for season 14.

Speaking for myself I'm not attached to Michael; it just makes the most sense in light of the spoilers that have been given as well as the current storyline. From the past couple of seasons it's a given that the current season's plot will bleed over into the new season so it's a fair bet that this will be the case for season 14. Also since we already know it's going to happen and it's been said that it's "a long time coming" who else would it be besides Michael? What new character would even be significant enough for Dean to portray? 

Edited April 25, 2018 by DeeDee79

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Speaking for myself I'm not attached to Michael; it just makes the most sense in light of the spoilers that have been given as well as the current storyline. From the past couple of seasons it's a given that the current season's plot will bleed over into the new season so it's a fair bet that this will be the case for season 14. Also since we already know it's going to happen and it's been said that it's "a long time coming" who else would it be besides Michael? What new character would even be significant enough for Dean to portray? 

13 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

why not give somebody new a chance ? Are people really attached to Michael as something other than a keepsake of when the show used to be at its peak ?

 

I thought one of the major complaints this year was the number of characters they kept bringing in--old, new, recycled...and I somehow doubt they'll all be tied up neatly by the end of the season.  So why add another one to the mix when they have one that's already written? 

Besides, creating a new character would mean the writers would have to actually think and come up with someone with an interesting story, and somehow I just don't have the faith in them others seem to. :) 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Besides, creating a new character would mean the writers would have to actually think and come up with someone with an interesting story, and somehow I just don't have the faith in them others seem to. :) 

I certainly don't!

[BoxManLocke]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Also since we already know it's going to happen and it's been said that it's "a long time coming" who else would it be besides Michael?

My idea of something being "a long time coming" doesn't translate to this something being talked about in a single episode 8 years ago and then never brought back up again.

 

In fact if we're going to use that expression as some kind of evidence, Death would make a lot more sense, seeing how often they've been dealing with the entity and how much trouble they've caused it while facing very little repercussion.

[devlin]

People keep saying that Michael isn’t interesting. I personally wouldn’t call lucifer interesting, i find him to be a one note boring whiny little brat yet here we are still giving him screen time 9 years going. We don’t know anything about Michael. Here is a chance for a stellar actor to create a charismatic, engaging character like he did with dean

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

My idea of something being "a long time coming" doesn't translate to this something being talked about in a single episode 8 years ago and then never brought back up again.

Michael was brought up in the beginning of s11 with the Cage cracking. Michael was mentioned by Lucifer as being nuts (who knows) and not available to fight. His name has been tossed around more than I would have expected in s11, (I was hopeful then). Then The Michael Lance was introduced with Ramiel in s12. I was getting my hopes up again, but also figured the show would never go there.

So it's not entirely out of the blue, if those are actual foreshadowing.

I can make cases for both Michael and Death.  For me those are the front runners. which means I'll be wrong LOL

Edited April 25, 2018 by catrox14

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

People keep saying that Michael isn’t interesting. I personally wouldn’t call lucifer interesting, i find him to be a one note boring whiny little brat yet here we are still giving him screen time 9 years going. We don’t know anything about Michael. Here is a chance for a stellar actor to create a charismatic, engaging character like he did with dean

 

Lucifer's been the worst character on the show two years running. Quite the achievement.

Michael can't be any worse for many reasons, starting with the fact that he is not a walking sitcom. However he's still an angel and should he return I expect him to blabber on about heaven and the apocalypse and his dad and blah blah blah. I've really had enough of that stuff.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Michael was brought up in the beginning of s11 with the Cage cracking. Michael was mentioned by Lucifer as being nuts (who knows) and not available to fight. His name has been tossed around more than I would have expected in s11, (I was hopeful then). Then The Michael Lance was introduced with Ramiel in s12. I was getting my hopes up again, but also figured the show would never go there.

So it's not entirely out of the blue, if those are actual foreshadowing.

I can make cases for both Michael and Death.  For me those are the front runners. which means I'll be wrong LOL

 

There have been mentions of Michael's name, yes. Nothing that comes close to what they've been doing with Death. Now that would actually be a pretty impressive build up for SPN and as a result the payoff would be even better... which is why I think it's not the right pick either.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

My idea of something being "a long time coming" doesn't translate to this something being talked about in a single episode 8 years ago and then never brought back up again.

Aside from the times Michael's been brought up in the last few years (as @catrox14 mentioned above), are you saying Michael was only talked about "in a single episode 8 years ago" (ie, season 5?)  Because Michael (and Dean being Michael's vessel) was a major point throughout *all* of season 5--even before Sam became Lucifer's vessel--up until suddenly he wasn't.  That to me (and others, I suspect) was a tease of massive proportions that was summarily dropped.  So while those who were satisfied with Swan Song and the way that ended might not care about revisiting the "dropped" story of Dean/Michael, there are plenty who have been hoping for "a long time" that it might at least be addressed or even--*gasp*--finally resolved.  After all, if Dean really is Michael's OTV, that hasn't changed in the past 8 years just because he hasn't been around.  And it may even apply to AU!Michael.  So I'd say it's pretty relevant these days.  

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Michael was brought up in the beginning of s11 with the Cage cracking. Michael was mentioned by Lucifer as being nuts (who knows) and not available to fight. His name has been tossed around more than I would have expected in s11, (I was hopeful then). Then The Michael Lance was introduced with Ramiel in s12. I was getting my hopes up again, but also figured the show would never go there.

So it's not entirely out of the blue, if those are actual foreshadowing.

I can make cases for both Michael and Death.  For me those are the front runners. which means I'll be wrong LOL

Gah... Not to mention the Lance is broken and only he can fix it and it would kill Lucifer and AU Micharl both of which are problems and are on kill lists for many characters.  Heaven needs a powerful archangel. Michael is the only one currently at full power.  They will need archangel grace. Neither Gabriel or Lucifer are anywhere near full grace.  There have been a couple of special blood storylines, one with Dean including callback to the Righteous Man, and an episode in which Dean is chosen as a Vessel.  A couple of episides ago Michael was namedropped in an exorcism.  Yeesh. You have to be blind not to see Dean!Michael next turn.  ANVILS! have been dropping all season.  

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Not me!  I adore Jensen/Dean.  I'm thrilled he's getting something cool to do.  Jensen playing a different character is cool so long as we eventually get Dean back.  And preferably with a complete memory of what happened.  But I'd like it if Dean got possessed by a nice guy that we trusted.  That's BORING (of course) and therefore unrealistic.  But I don't want him walking away with a shit-ton of guilt from this.  I'm reminded of "Angel" (again... ).  When the team took out his soul so they could ask Angelus questions, and Angelus got out, Angel DIDN'T apologize.  They knew what they were getting when they took the risk.  I don't know if we will be so lucky if Jensen plays a character wearing a Dean suit and bad shit happens.  Maybe they all agree to the risk and he counts on others to minimize fallout.  

Using the Angel analogy, one of the Best character arcs I have ever seen was that of Wesley Wyndam Pryce. They took that character dark and then brought him back and he earned his place back. It was really brilliant.

Now Dean is already a fantastically nuanced, dark, gritty, iconic hero.   I think post season 11 he is doing a much better job of bearing the weight of the world, masking the tough decisions and carrying on.  And whatever happens by the end of this season, whatever he is driven to do through desperation for a win and despair over a loss...

Well he will be willing to live with the consequences because he will be sacrificing himself for the sake of his family and probably the world again. It is how he rolls.  

And the bad that always comes with it.  He will deal with it. I know that the show cannot continue indefinitely, however Dean/Jensen wears his age so well and it adds so beautifully to the burden on those weary shoulders that possibly will never pay their weary head to rest... lol.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/22/2018 at 5:02 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I disagree. Killing Sam was not Demon Dean's goal - not until Sam trapped and tried to force a cure he didn't want on him. In fact he did his best to stay away from Sam. IMO it was cut short because they didn't have the guts to keep Sam and Dean apart for long. And I don't think it would've been all that hard to write a scenario where they end up working together. They have certainly worked with other demons, including the King of Hell.

Yes. Sam was forcing a cure that DDean did not want.  I tbink Dean was going to beat the crap out of him and leave... just like he did with whatshisname the marine. 

They cut it short for Fan fiction  snd they were still operating on the brothers joined at the hip playbook. This season r hey had Dean hunting solo a lot. I think this was the prelude to Dean and Sam having separate stories next season because of Dean's status.

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

@AwesomO4000, thanks for that explanation.

You're welcome.

Quote

I always thought Michael was pretty fascinating because he was so....IMO, different in his attitude.  I thought since he promised to not leave Dean a drooling mess, that he had some kind of compassion.

Ah, okay this explains a lot. I always looked at that as just being manipulation... like when Michael said that he would bring back Dean's *sarcasm* precious Sam. To me, he was only doing it to placate / bribe Dean, not because he had any real compassion for Sam. And I still can't get past the careless, messy, brutal deaths of the man in the bar and the bartender who hadn't done anything to anyone that we know of. What compassionate being does that just to have a chat?

4 hours ago, devlin said:

Why is Michael so much worse than lucifer??? Lucifer supposedly subjected Sam to the worst torture ever imagined, sam apparently is haunted by visions of lucifer’s true face. Can someone please explain to me what Michael has done that is worse than that?

I never said Michael was "worse" than Lucifer in that regard.

As for what Michael has done that's not quite worse than but pretty close to Lucifer? How about that he helped to let Lucifer out of the cage and then made sure it happened even when there was an alternative? When the good guys found a way to stop the whole apocalypse, potentially sacrificing their own existence to stop it, Michael basically said "nah, I want the apocalypse to happen, you silly humans, why would you even suggest fixing things?" I look at Michael as pretty much saying "Dad wants me to kill Lucifer, so I gotta do it. Do you guys mind if I help let Lucifer out of hell to cause some disasters and kill people and then maybe kill half of you all to make sure I get that done? You do mind? Hmm, how odd. Okay, how about if I told you that those of you who don't die horribly and go to our Memorex heaven - likely to be separated from your real loved ones forever - get to live in our angel version of paradise with no pesky free will to worry about?*** See! You're welcome!"

How is that not the kind of thing an evil overlord would think up?

And if Michael truly thought he was doing a good thing? Then that might be even worse than if he considered it might be bad, because that would mean that he truly didn't understand that what he was doing was not good for humanity and/or thought that what he was doing would "fix" things for the better and only he could do it... the very definition of hubris and hell's road being paved with good intentions, in my opinion.

To me it doesn't matter much if the powerful being killing you horribly is doing it evilly or because he thinks he's doing the right thing... he's still killing you horribly. Or even if he doesn't realize what he's doing... A Mike Nelson, Destroyer of Worlds - while amusing (at least in Mystery Science Theater 3000) - still means a destroyed world. And Michael isn't amusing, imo.

*** This is what I gathered from what Castiel said to Dean when they talked after Sam fell into the cage. He said that Dean got what he said he wanted - free will rather than being a pawn in paradise. My understanding of that was that Castiel was telling Dean that had Michael succeeded, there would maybe have been paradise, but free will wouldn't have been a part of it.

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They do not want Dean to get a big mytharc moment really is my guess.  Not anything that compares to what Sam had. I suspect it is a fangirl thing.  They want it to be something short and sweet. 

That's hardly the reason. I explained why I don't like Michael. I can see most here think that he is a "blank slate." That's fine. I don't, but I at least hope that they can make it make sense and that the answer isn't just going to be "well he's good now, because Dean is here to make him see the light." Because in that case, Michael might as well have been the Easter Bunny... it would be the same kind of Deus ex Machina. And if he isn't good, well then why did Dean take that reckless chance in the first place? It'll make Dean look stupid.

But truthfully my main concern is in hoping that the "big mytharc moment" for Dean won't mean that Sam ends up getting thrown under the bus somehow... and I outlined in my post above some of the many, many ways that could happen. Even if we just have Michael in Dean, keeping Dean in a fantasy world, this would mean either Sam doesn't notice or Sam can't find Dean (so pretty much a redux of Sam looking for Demon Dean), both of which would be crappy arcs for Sam if not make him look badly outright. And maybe I am being overly concerned, but it's probably because it's pretty much what happened in season 9 and 10, in my opinion (I know yours is different, I just greatly disagree). For me, Dean's big mytharcs there pretty much resulted in Sam getting thrown under the bus - multiple times in multiple ways. No thank you on a repeat of that which is what I would see a Michael/Dean arc doing.

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They are pretty clearly exploring Sam as the human brother. That was telegraphed last season by giving Mary all of the Sam tropes from his first big mytharc including pushing Lucifer through a rift.  Also Lucifer rejected him as a vessel and essentially no longer needs him as such.

Finally we see him taking on the caretaker role that Dean formally had big time tbis season. And we see him being given emotional arcs with several characters.

I'm not seeing this myself. They gave Sam one episode of this before they took it away and took away his usual optimism (with no real set up at all) and turned him into a depressed, without hope moper who Dean has to try to cheer up. I don't see much set up so far for Sam having any kind of arc really, but maybe I'm missing something.

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

I tbink Dean was going to beat the crap out of him and leave... just like he did with whatshisname the marine. 

Demon Dean was hunting Sam and then swung a hammer at Sam's head. I'm pretty sure he was going for the kill.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

When the team took out his soul so they could ask Angelus questions, and Angelus got out, Angel DIDN'T apologize.  They knew what they were getting when they took the risk.  I don't know if we will be so lucky if Jensen plays a character wearing a Dean suit and bad shit happens.  Maybe they all agree to the risk and he counts on others to minimize fallout.  

And this is just another of the many ways that the other characters like Sam and Castiel might end up in a bad situation for Dean's arc.

When Sam takes a risk and it goes sideways, the plot has him choose it somehow on his own or at the very least those helping him have reservations - that they repeatedly voice - so the blame ends up on Sam. If Dean gets the rest involved to "minimize the fallout" and they fail to be of help in stopping the bad - a potential scenario, because otherwise where would be the drama - now they share the responsibility for the screw up. Even worse is if somehow Sam or Castiel makes a mistake to facilitate the going sideways. Sorry, but I personally don't want another arc where somehow most of the bad consequences somehow end up on someone else. If there is a "minimizing the fallout" scenario, then I want those helping to actually be able to do that... but that has it's own risks in that there might be negative feedback.

I just don't see much of a potential for a positive outcome for me here, sadly.

I miss the days - like season 6 and 7 - where the brothers worked together to solve a problem not of either of their making and both got to have a heroic role in trying to save the world. When was the last time that happened?

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

My idea of something being "a long time coming" doesn't translate to this something being talked about in a single episode 8 years ago and then never brought back up again.

 

In fact if we're going to use that expression as some kind of evidence, Death would make a lot more sense, seeing how often they've been dealing with the entity and how much trouble they've caused it while facing very little repercussion.

Dean as Michael's vessel was talked about more than in "a single episode". It was mentioned in most of season 5. Michael makes just as much sense as Death.

7 hours ago, devlin said:

People keep saying that Michael isn’t interesting. I personally wouldn’t call lucifer interesting, i find him to be a one note boring whiny little brat yet here we are still giving him screen time 9 years going. We don’t know anything about Michael. Here is a chance for a stellar actor to create a charismatic, engaging character like he did with dean

Exactly this.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I still can't get past the careless, messy, brutal deaths of the man in the bar and the bartender who hadn't done anything to anyone that we know of. What compassionate being does that just to have a chat?

Castiel burned out Pamela's eyes. He didnt intend to, it was collateral damage from his power. Same for the people in the bar. I don't think it was a matter of compassion or lack thereof.

Edited April 25, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Castiel burned out Pamela's eyes. He didnt intend to, it was collateral damage from his power.

This is true, but if I remember correctly, Castiel tried to warn Pamela not to continue after she initiated the contact. Pamela insisted on seeing Cas' true nature anyway, so there was little else Castiel could have done to not have that accident happen. So there was at least an attempt by Castiel to minimize the damage, which to me, makes that different from Michael initiating the contact in the bar when he knew of his potential power. Since Michael talked with Dean about how he could make sure not to leave Dean a drooling mess, to me, this implies Michael could minimize damage if he chose to do so. And he did minimize damage to John and he fixed Sam and that was before what happened in the bar. So Michael knew his presence could be damaging, but he apparently didn't care enough to come down in a vessel*** to minimize that damage or wait until Zachariah was away from people to talk to him. He could've even scared the people out of the bar somehow before he spoke. It might have been a little inconvenient, but it would've been the compassionate thing to do... which Michael didn't do or show, in my opinion, but it's okay if others don't agree.

*** Admittedly a tricky proposition, but Lucifer managed it without exploding Nick, so it was theoretically possible for a short time frame.

This isn't to say that Michael maybe couldn't have learned some compassion while in the cage. But he could maybe just as easily have become resentful and bitter towards the humans - especially Sam - who trapped him in the cage and kept him from doing what he thought was his duty.

If it is going to be a Michael return, the writers could pretty much do anything and just say this is what happened... which to me is why it may not be very satisfying. I like to know how things happened in terms of character development, not just see a result and have to guess how a character changed his mind and got that way... which was also why I found Sam's agreeing to join the BMoL last season and his seemingly instant depression this season so unsatisfying.

Edited April 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

All I know is if, in canon, I had a choice of standing beside Lucifer or standing beside Michael and had to trust one of them, it wouldn't be Lucifer. They may have made a mockery of him, but he's still the literal Devil and has caused more intentional death and destruction than Michael, by a long shot. Not to mention tormenting Sam in and out of Hell for years. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Because I am incapable of posting without typos

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All I know is if, in canon, I had a choice if standing beside Lucifer or standing beside Michael and had to trust one of them, it wouldn't be Lucifer. They may have made a mockery of him, but he's still the literal Devil and has caused more intentional death and destruction than Michael, by a long shot. Not to mention tormenting Sam in and out of Hell for years. 

I don't disagree, and if the show has Sam trusting Lucifer in any way this season, I would call bullcrap even faster. But I don't trust either one of them... and with Michael potentially being crazy? ...If one believes Lucifer - which I don't, but - even such a chance is disconcerting in my opinion.

My point is that based on what I've seen of Michael, I wouldn't like Dean taking such a huge chance in saying "yes" to Michael. It's not that I don't want Dean to have a storyline or anything like that... it's that I think it would make Dean either look reckless or like an idiot for doing it, since there is no guarantee for me that Michael will do anything he might promise to Dean. No matter how good he makes it sound, there's generally a loophole somewhere.

And I suppose everything could just go as planned, and Michael could now be the most compassionate archangel ever... but that doesn't mean that I would find that satisfying storytelling either,  because I would want to know / see how Michael got that way now when - in my opinion - I didn't see it before.

I would much rather - from a story perspective - see a storyline where Dean has little choice in getting taken over and he would fight against it to get himself out / back. It would maybe be more awful for Dean at first, but at least there wouldn't either be potential guilt for Dean later if something went wrong or be serious plot twisting to make sure everything goes right (since when does that ever happen on this show?) or that it isn't partially Dean's responsibility if something does go wrong.

I guess I don't want any more "the Winchesters - either recklessly or ignorantly - make a mistake that endangers the world and now they have to fix it" plot arcs. I've had enough variations of those... And Dean saying "yes" to Michael would be screaming that kind of potential set up to me. And either result - it does go wrong or it doesn't go wrong - doesn't have much potential to be satisfying for me based on how I see Michael. Another character - Death, the goo god from the empty, one of the fates, some ancient player who's finally had enough, anything that doesn't require Dean to say "yes" to whatever craziness takes place and either Sam and/or Castiel to disagree, setting up a Team Free Will vs Dean scenario or Team Free Will going along and sharing blame (either is bad in my opinion) - I'm down for.

It's basically the "yes" to Michael I'm objecting to. I don't see any way it works out satisfyingly storywise for me in the hands of these writers - in my opinion.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess I don't want any more "the Winchesters - either recklessly or ignorantly - make a mistake that endangers the world and now they have to fix it" plot arcs. I've had enough variations of those... And Dean saying "yes" to Michael would be screaming that kind of potential set up to me. And either result - it does go wrong or it doesn't go wrong - doesn't have much potential to be satisfying for me based on how I see Michael.

I can understand not wanting the Winchesters to make any more stupid mistakes.  I'd also much prefer a logical (and human) solution instead of always going for deus-ex-machina/hail mary saves.  But apparently that's the only way the writers can come up with fixes when they've written themselves into a corner (as they've done every year for the past 6 or 7... :) )  

But  I'm willing to wait and see what happens, because I haven't seen anything onscreen that proves that Michael is bad/evil or anything other than just a season-5-era clueless/arrogant angel, or that he intends to do anything horrible to the world.  In fact, if he's supposed to be fighting AU!Michael, I'd expect him to be his antithesis.  So I appreciate your headcanon about Michael, even if I disagree with it completely, and I'm sorry that, because of your interpretation of his character, it seems you can't enjoy even the ongoing specs.  I hope you (and all of us!) are pleasantly surprised.  

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My point is that based on what I've seen of Michael, I wouldn't like Dean taking such a huge chance in saying "yes" to Michael. It's not that I don't want Dean to have a storyline or anything like that... it's that I think it would make Dean either look reckless or like an idiot for doing it, since there is no guarantee for me that Michael will do anything he might promise to Dean. No matter how good he makes it sound, there's generally a loophole somewhere.

I really don't see this as any different than Sam saying yes.  He was putting the fate or the entire world at stake and taking a huge risk that he could overcome Lucifer when he failed twice against lesser opponents.

If Dean says yes, I can see it being about saving people, so there might be a recklessness to it, but it would be done with the exact same motivation as Sam.  I think Dean is stronger than the show likes to give him credit for, and I can see him fighting Michael every step of the way.

[Myrelle]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

I really don't see this as any different than Sam saying yes.  He was putting the fate or the entire world at stake and taking a huge risk that he could overcome Lucifer when he failed twice against lesser opponents.

If Dean says yes, I can see it being about saving people, so there might be a recklessness to it, but it would be done with the exact same motivation as Sam.  I think Dean is stronger than the show likes to give him credit for, and I can see him fighting Michael every step of the way.

Yeah, I can't see Dean's yes as being any more reckless either-as long as they grant him world-saving as his one of his motivations, too, that is-AND if any of this even happens, because I still can't really believe that it will be allowed to happen.