These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[ILoveReading]

The only thing worse than Dean chickening out would be a scenario, where Dean thinks he was dropped into the ocean.  He panics and begs to be let out and Sam opens the lid and said he didn't do it becuase he knew Dean would change his mind.  That makes Sam look like he knew Dean would chicken out and shows Dean actually did.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I have a bad feeling about this ep and this doesn't help.  I think Dean wants Sam and Cas to stop him, and they are going to have him wimp out at the end.

I didn't get that vibe. I got the impression that Dean doesnt believe that Cas and Sam and Mary won't do something behind his back.

I think Dean is pissed that he has to do this and maybe he's hoping someone will thank him for saving the world when he killed Lucifer. I think it's more that Dean isn't shaky about doing it but shaky that it will fail and Michael will get out anyway.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

The only thing worse than Dean chickening out would be a scenario, where Dean thinks he was dropped into the ocean.  He panics and begs to be let out and Sam opens the lid and said he didn't do it becuase he knew Dean would change his mind.  That makes Sam look like he knew Dean would chicken out and shows Dean actually did.

I would stop watching the show. I would probably go to LA and tell Dabb to fuck off to his face. 

[trudysmom]

Also, Sam has lied to him very convincingly in the past.  He pretended about the Book of the Damned until he couldn't any longer, and the whole fake 'hunt alerts' that were jobs from Mick and the MOL.  So maybe he's just placating Dean, again.  Maybe.  I don't want to believe that of him but even less do I want to see Dean be shown a coward.  Not after all he's gone through.

[MysteryGuest]

I have to say, I don't get where all of this cowardice talk is coming from.  Has Dean ever once been shown to be a coward (the weird episode where he screams at the cat doesn't count)?  What precedent is there that would indicate that's what they're going to do?  Or is the thought process here that because Sam didn't "chicken out"  when he jumped into the Pit with Lucifer, if Dean doesn't go through with this suicide mission, he will somehow be perceived by some fans as cowardly and Sam isn't?   If that is part of the concern, I don't see them as parallel at all.  They didn't have 1/10 of the knowledge of the supernatural then that they do now.  They hadn't already survived multiple world-ending crisis.  To me, there really is no comparison, nor is there a need to compare.  These men have proven their bravery over and over and over again.  If they find some way to talk Dean out of sacrificing himself, this Dean fan will be perfectly happy with that.  Obviously, opinions may vary.

Edited January 30, 2019 by MysteryGuest

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

To me, the sneak peek comes across not so much as being about Dean not wanting to die this way, but mostly as Dean wondering what is up with Sam. It's just a brief scene, of course, but Sam does seem remarkably calm here to me, almost like he already knows he doesn't need to worry. If it seems that way to Dean as well, maybe that's why he is worrying whether Sam has planned some way to stop him.

 

Yeah, Sam/JP is coming across as kind of smug to me in that sneak peek-which is making me worry more than ever now about how and why they're going to have Dean change his mind-which is what I feel is most likely to happen by the end of this one.

I would be fine with a vision making him feel this way, but starting for reals and then stopping it-for any reason-would suck out loud IMO, too. 

And yes, worst of all would be Sam pulling some kind of fake nonsense to make that to happen.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would stop watching the show. I would probably go to LA and tell Dabb to fuck off to his face. 

You and me both, sister.

[Cambion]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't get that vibe. I got the impression that Dean doesnt believe that Cas and Sam and Mary won't do something behind his back.

I think Dean is pissed that he has to do this and maybe he's hoping someone will thank him for saving the world when he killed Lucifer. I think it's more that Dean isn't shaky about doing it but shaky that it will fail and Michael will get out anyway.

IA with this.  I saw it as Dean being worried it won't work, and/or his plan will be interfered with (ah-gain!) and another big bad will be let loose.  I think he's far more worried/frightened of Michael getting loose than any of us are really giving him credit for.  For the simple fact that he brought Micheal here.  So, in Dean's mind, he himself is the current big bad because it was his decision.

 

Also, I wonder if the scene in the box is NOT a vision but a dream?  Dean is pretty wrecked looking with what's going on, why wouldn't he dream about how terrifying being alone in that box is going to be?  

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Cambion said:

For the simple fact that he brought Micheal here. 

But Dean didn't bring Michael to this world.  That's on Lucifer. 

ETA: Dean made the best of a no win situation. Lucifer was going to be more powerful than Jack or Michael never mind kidnapping Jack and Sam. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by catrox14

[Cambion]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But Dean didn't bring Michael to this world.  That's on Lucifer. 

ETA: Dean made the best of a no win situation. Lucifer was going to be more powerful than Jack or Michael never mind kidnapping Jack and Sam. 

 

Ack, you're right!  I've watched way too much at once and the details get mixed up.  Thanks for the correction.  I do stand by Dean feels guilty about it for some reason, though, because you know he does.  lol

Edited January 30, 2019 by Cambion

[Aeryn13]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to say, I don't get where all of this cowardice talk is coming from.  Has Dean ever once been shown to be a coward (the weird episode where he screams at the cat doesn't count)?  What precedent is there that would indicate that's what they're going to do?  Or is the thought process here that because Sam didn't "chicken out"  when he jumped into the Pit with Lucifer, if Dean doesn't go through with this suicide mission, he will somehow be perceived by some fans as cowardly and Sam isn't?   If that is part of the concern, I don't see them as parallel at all.  They didn't have 1/10 of the knowledge of the supernatural then that they do now.  They hadn't already survived multiple world-ending crisis.  To me, there really is no comparison, nor is there a need to compare.  These men have proven their bravery over and over and over again.  If they find some way to talk Dean out of sacrificing himself, this Dean fan will be perfectly happy with that.  Obviously, opinions may vary.

It depends completely in why he doesn't go through with it. If it is because he wimps out, then yes it IS absolutely comparable to Sam and they would have made Dean look like a coward in comparism. That would be horrifying.

As for "they wouldn't do it", there is nothing I would not believe them to do to trash Dean. 

Why do I get those vibes? The promo and the sneak weak seem very ominous.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to say, I don't get where all of this cowardice talk is coming from.  Has Dean ever once been shown to be a coward (the weird episode where he screams at the cat doesn't count)?  What precedent is there that would indicate that's what they're going to do?  Or is the thought process here that because Sam didn't "chicken out"  when he jumped into the Pit with Lucifer, if Dean doesn't go through with this suicide mission, he will somehow be perceived by some fans as cowardly and Sam isn't?   If that is part of the concern, I don't see them as parallel at all.  They didn't have 1/10 of the knowledge of the supernatural then that they do now.  They hadn't already survived multiple world-ending crisis.  To me, there really is no comparison, nor is there a need to compare.  These men have proven their bravery over and over and over again.  If they find some way to talk Dean out of sacrificing himself, this Dean fan will be perfectly happy with that.  Obviously, opinions may vary.

 

It depends completely in why he doesn't go through with it. If it is because he wimps out, then yes it IS absolutely comparable to Sam and they would have made Dean look like a coward in comparism. That would be horrifying.

As for "they wouldn't do it", there is nothing I would not believe them to do to trash Dean. 

Why do I get those vibes? The promo and the sneak weak seem very ominous.

Yup. This is how I feel, too-especially the last two paragraphs.

Someone mentioned that it could be a dream. And Dean mentions in the sneak peek something about what Sam said "last night". So maybe it's that and we'll get that scene right at the beginning.

But it still seems like Dean is going to have to change his mind about implementing the plan right away as he still seems to want to do from the sneak peek. 

But it's Sam's smugness that bothers me the most in that sneak peek. Hopefully, that's just JP and not Sam.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But it still seems like Dean is going to have to change his mind about implementing the plan right away as he still seems to want to do from the sneak peek. 

But it's Sam's smugness that bothers me the most in that sneak peek. Hopefully, that's just JP and not Sam.

Sam is working with Rowena in episode 14.  So they are probably searching for a better option. 

I'd feel better about this story if we didn't  have to interupt it for the 300th where Dean had to be normal.  Either Michael escapes before Dean can go through with it or he changes his mind.  I'd rather Michael escape.

It doesn't really matter what was written in Billie's books on LOL!canon. 

[tessathereaper]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't get that vibe. I got the impression that Dean doesnt believe that Cas and Sam and Mary won't do something behind his back.

I think Dean is pissed that he has to do this and maybe he's hoping someone will thank him for saving the world when he killed Lucifer. I think it's more that Dean isn't shaky about doing it but shaky that it will fail and Michael will get out anyway.

Don't know about that, all I know is if they make Dean "chicken out" because he's too scared, that's it.  

That said Dean has very good reason to believe Sam, Cas and Mary will go behind his back because they constantly have lied to him and gone behind his back specifically when he's asked them not to and generally caused something even worse.  So if he isn't trusting them, good.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam is working with Rowena in episode 14.  So they are probably searching for a better option. 

I'd feel better about this story if we didn't  have to interupt it for the 300th where Dean had to be normal.  Either Michael escapes before Dean can go through with it or he changes his mind.  I'd rather Michael escape.

Michael isn't escaping, IMO.

I just went back and watched the sneak peek again and I am now feeling as if the Dean in the Box scene might take place in the beginning as the teaser and, yes, probably via a dream. There was something about the way Dean said "I can't get shaky on this..."-almost as if he'd seen himself that way already and experienced it already.

Maybe they will just have Sam or Cas deliver some kind of BM-like speech and that's what convinces Dean to try and hold out a little longer. Isn't this the one with the Dean/Cas scene that the Destiel fandom has been waiting for?-not that that necessarily means it will be a good scene for Dean, I mean some of that segment loved Cas beating the shit out of Dean in Point of No Return over a choice Dean wanted to make back then, too.

IDK. Dreading this one now, though, because I'm 99.9999999...% sure that Dean is going to change his mind-which doesn't necessarily have to be executed in a bad or terrible way, but as others have said, Dabb is the big problem here and with that. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It doesn't really matter what was written in Billie's books on LOLcanon

.. I am wondering if Dean's time in the box really does happen and this Lebanon episode is Dean making one wish to himself, like I wish I could see Dad again before I die so somehow and that's why John comes back and Amara plucks him out of Heaven if that is where he went. Giving Dean his desire of all the way back in s1 in Shadow, to have his family together again. Maybe the scene with Dean and John  is Dean telling John what he is going to do hence the body language.

[catrox14]

And the real event happens after the 300th. I also would not be surprised if John decides to offer himself up as Michael's vessel so that Dean doesn't have to die. Maybe the scene that looks like John and Dean are at odds is Hihn trying to convince Dean.

Again, what better way to get someone off screen and since as of now JDM is still on Walking Dead, this is how they redeem John.

Or alternatively, it's Sam who makes the wish for John to come back because Dean is going through with it and he wants Dean to have his family together one last time.

[ILoveReading]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

. I am wondering if Dean's time in the box really does happen and this Lebanon episode is Dean making one wish to himself, like I wish I could see Dad again before I die so somehow and that's why John comes back and Amara plucks him out of Heaven if that is where he went. Giving Dean his desire of all the way back in s1 in Shadow, to have his family together again. Maybe the scene with Dean and John  is Dean telling John what he is going to do hence the body language.

It would be great if the 300th was a figment of Dean's imagination.  It would explain why the focus seems to be on Sam and Mary, because Dean usually thinks of himself last.   But with Jared talking about Sam getting closure and how he could die happy, that doesn't really fit if its not really happening.  (Unless that is Jared talking about something he's wanted for Sam).  Dabb isnt' that imaginative. 

I would love it if the reason we didnt' get photos of Jensen on set in episode 14.  (Misha, Jared, Alex and Ruth were spotted but no Jensen.)  is that Dean is actually trapped in the box.  What an acting challenge that would be for Jensen to play Dean trapped in there with Michael in his head and trying to fight off panic and trapped with a pissed off arch angel.  It would be similar to Ryan Reynolds in Buried.  Trapped, and cut off from his friends and family.  With Sam, Jack and Cas and Rowena top side trying to figure out a way to save him.  But alas...Dabb.

It's demon Dean all over again.  A good story has to be interrupted for a very special episode.  This is another reason don't believe Dabb has a long term plan.  The 300th should be incorporated into the story rather then the story dropped to accomodate it.

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I also would not be surprised if John decides to offer himself up as Michael's vessel so that Dean doesn't have to die. Maybe the scene that looks like John and Dean are at odds is Hihn trying to convince Dean.

I'm not sure how much John is going to figure into things.  JDM filmed 2 days.  That's 10 minutes of screen time 12 at the most.  I suspect he'll get the intro scene.  A scene with Sam, one with Dean and one with Mary and then the goodbye.   a 2 minute scene doesn't seem like there is time for a real confrontation with John and Dean about his plan with Michael.  How do they get Michael from Dean's head to John's.  Michael would know the plan since he's in Deans' head.  Plus, that would end the Michael story unless he escapes for the season finale since I don't think John will be around for multiple episodes. 

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or alternatively, it's Sam who makes the wish for John to come back because Dean is going through with it and he wants Dean to have his family together one last time.

We already know its Dean's wish.  It's been confirmed. 

I suspect this episode will just be a repeat of What is and What Should never be.  Dean makes an off hand wish, (to say goodbye to his dad or something like that).  We get the scene with the teenagers talkiing about how they see the guys.  They go home, find John.  Happy times, reunion, dinner, Sam or Dean's time with John.  Something strange happens, Sam and Dean go investigate.  Find Zachariah and Cas.  Confrontation. with whatever the big bad is (Sam is beat up, and Dean looks to have a bit of a split lip.)*  During this cut away to Mary and her time with John.  After big bad is dealt with Dean realizes this dream world can't last.  He unmakes his wish (or whatever).  Sam or Dean's time with John, maybe the dinner scene.  Good bye scene.    Back to the real world for a BM.

*EW released a bigger, higher quality still of the scene of them at the dinner table and you can see a small cut on Deans' lip.

Edited January 30, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Back to the real world for a BM.

 ;-D :-D...

I'm sorry but this just cracked me up(and yes, sometimes my sense of humor is like a 12 year old boy's).

[juppschmitz]

I think as long as Nick is still around it's all going to end up with Lucifer coming back somehow. Again.

And the whole Michael interlude is going to be just that - an interlude.

Somebody kill off any character that Pellegrino might play, pleeeaaase!

[NougatJack]

17 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The only thing worse than Dean chickening out would be a scenario, where Dean thinks he was dropped into the ocean.  He panics and begs to be let out and Sam opens the lid and said he didn't do it becuase he knew Dean would change his mind.  That makes Sam look like he knew Dean would chicken out and shows Dean actually did.

Now I´ve got an idea. Why should they drop him into the ocean anyways? If somehow Dichael manages to escape the box, it should´nt matter where the box is. Then Dichael could teleport anywhere. IMO it would be better if they would Keep Dichael in the bunker. The wardings on the box are the last line of defense, not the ocean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Dean specifically says "I don't need to get shaky on this thing." That, to me, is a completely rational request in a completely irrational situation. He's doing something that he has no choice but to do, and he's asking Sam not to make it harder on him. Obviously it's not happening this episode, so something stops him - whether it's another solution, or proof-positive (at least in Dean's eyes) that it won't work. I refuse to believe it will be because he's too scared to go through with it. This is the guy who willingly took on the soul-bomb and walked up to meet his fate on his own two legs.

28 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Now I´ve got an idea. Why should they drop him into the ocean anyways? If somehow Dichael manages to escape the box, it should´nt matter where the box is. Then Dichael could teleport anywhere. IMO it would be better if they would Keep Dichael in the bunker. The wardings on the box are the last line of defense, not the ocean. 

I think the idea of it being at the bottom of the ocean is to prevent anyone else trying to open it from the outside.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean wouldn't be human if he weren't a bit shaky on what he is planning to do.  He knows what Sam went through with Lucifer in the Box, and he wasn't locked there for all eternity.  But being frightened and not wanting to die are not the same as being cowardly.  I don't like that word being used in regard to any of these men, personally.  If they've only proved one thing in 14 years, it's that none of them are cowardly.

I like Catrox's idea, and it would be a nice call back to Amara and her desire to give Dean what he needs the most.  But it does make Chuck look like an even bigger dick than usual, since these are his children screwing everything up.  It's one thing if humans destroy the world, but if they're left to fight against Archangels, how is that fair?

[ILoveReading]

31 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean wouldn't be human if he weren't a bit shaky on what he is planning to do. 

I don't think anyone is saying that Dean not wanting to die, and being shaky wrong, or makes him a coward.  Its if he suddenly says I'm not doing it because its a horrible way to die, or I don't want that that is going to look like Dean is chickening out or being selfish or only truly willing to to put himself on the line for Sam.  Of course no one wants it.  Soliders don't want to leave their families and risk death but they do it because they made a commitment.

 

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

knows what Sam went through with Lucifer in the Box, and he wasn't locked there for all eternity

Sam knew what he was in for (It will make my hell look like Graceland) and he still jumped.  IMO, it would be compared because the show has done it it would be that when the time came for the ultimate sacrifice their legacies will ultimately be, Sam jumped and Dean didn't. 

[hunenka]

38 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean wouldn't be human if he weren't a bit shaky on what he is planning to do.

Exactly. The fact that he has a very good idea of just how bad it's going to be, and that he's understandably scared of that, but is still ready to go through with it because it has to be done—that's true courage.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean wouldn't be human if he weren't a bit shaky on what he is planning to do.  He knows what Sam went through with Lucifer in the Box, and he wasn't locked there for all eternity.  But being frightened and not wanting to die are not the same as being cowardly.

The thought, no, but if that thought was put into action aka weaseling out of it for the sole reason because he is too scared, that is the definition of cowardly. That`s what I and some others don`t want.  

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The thought, no, but if that thought was put into action aka weaseling out of it for the sole reason because he is too scared, that is the definition of cowardly. That`s what I and some others don`t want.  

But why, even from Dabbernatural, would we even anticipate that? It goes against everything Dean has ever been or stood for. I honestly don't know how this even became a thing.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But why, even from Dabbernatural, would we even anticipate that? It goes against everything Dean has ever been or stood for. I honestly don't know how this even became a thing.

I know, I`m in a total paranoia spiral right now. I was rather positive for the mid-Season Opener and I was still positive enough for last week`s episode. Just somehow the promo for the next episode totally freaked me out - and probably not in the way it was supposed to. I can`t even explain it, I guess this show broke me a couple times too many. Believe you me, I will be very happy to be proven wrong.

At least this is not a Dabb episode who really loves weak!Dean but a Bucklemming one have no flattering view of the character either as in "born killer" but at least they do not usually write him as weak for that reason. And mostly they write their episode very random and disjointed from anyone else. Though if that doesn`t say how bad it is - I`m pinning hopes on Bucklemming! - I don`t know what.

It`s hard right now to make heads or tails on how the episode is gonna go. I think the box idea will obviously be framed as "wrong", there is Cas with the suicidal bla bla and Sam i in the sneak peak with the "wouldn`t be the worst thing to get shaky on this" and it also obviously will not be implemented at the end of this episode (or possibly discarded) so I wondering how they will swing that.      

[ILoveReading]

What freaked me out (and not in a good way) was Dean's panicked, "Sam, Sammy" when the cell phone cuts out.  Its a scenario I've seen in movies and tv shows many times.  Where the last message gets through and a person shows up to rescue them.  So if Sam reads that as help/get me out it looks like Dean can't hack it.

Unless they're going to let Jensen actually play Dean in the box for an episode or two, than they have to make Dean change his mind.  If they go about it the wrong way it will make Dean look bad and it will reinforce Sam's line from The Purge.   It's either going to be Dean giving into Sam's pleading or Cas's verbal beat down or both, its going to look like Dean can't even stand up to his brother and friend. 

I'm just glad its not a Berens ep.  It it was a Wayward Sue would probably save the day.

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

when the time came for the ultimate sacrifice their legacies will ultimately be, Sam jumped and Dean didn't. 

I don't see this at all.  Their legacies will be that they both sacrificed everything, over and over and over, for the good of humanity, and yes, for the love of each other.  If there are really fans out there keeping this kind of a list as to who sacrificed the most and who was the least cowardly, I feel kind of bad for them.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

heir legacies will be that they both sacrificed everything, over and over and over, for the good of humanity

This won't apply to Dean if he backs out.  He'll be the guy who sacrificed the world for his brother.

Edited January 30, 2019 by ILoveReading
to bitch/jerk

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the idea of it being at the bottom of the ocean is to prevent anyone else trying to open it from the outside.

Unless they need to find it at the bottom of the ocean, or on the moon, then they will.  Didn't Crowley fetch that jawbone thing from the bottom of the ocean at one point?  OR somewhere equally inconvenient?

[Cambion]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

What freaked me out (and not in a good way) was Dean's panicked, "Sam, Sammy" when the cell phone cuts out.  Its a scenario I've seen in movies and tv shows many times.  Where the last message gets through and a person shows up to rescue them.  So if Sam reads that as help/get me out it looks like Dean can't hack it.

 

 

 I have to disagree.  In that scenario it looks like Sam misinterprets the message and that Dean was reacting to whatever it was that he was yelling for Sam about.  Which could be as simple as "can you hear me now?"  Because, srsly guys, the last few promos haven't really shown much of the actual storyline.  So we have a tiny, out of context scene that they chose for the promo specifically to get everyone in a tizzy so we'll tune in.  So, unless Dean really turns out to be yelling "Sam, Sammy, get me out of here! I've got a code brown and can't hack it!" I'm gonna go with Dean's not a coward.  (Which I don't think I'd ever call him anyway.  Everyone has their breaking point, and breaking doesn't make you a coward if you've spent your entire life being brave until that point.)

And comparing it to Sam's experience is really another red herring.  Sam really didn't know what he was in for, so he was able to keep himself brave in the face of what he feared.  Dean saw the aftermath of Sam's cohabitation with Micheal and Lucifer and it was definitely worse than they thought.  So Dean has a pretty good actual idea of what will happen to him, not just a guess - however educated - which was what they had before Sam's time in the cage.  (I know, Dean said it was going to be worse, but they didn't know how much worse as evidenced by Sam still being able to go through with the swan dive.  Juxtapose that against his screaming "don't put that thing back in me!" and running off and attempting to kill Bobby to keep from having his soul reinserted - why then wasn't Sam called a coward for those actions?  Srsly why?  Because I think we all saw he'd reached his breaking point upon learning that his soul had endured a year of torture and not the few hours that his body and consciousness had. So, in the face of that horror his fear was understandable and not a measure of cowardice.  

Anyway, I agree,  it's not fair to paint Dean with the results of one event.  Particularly if, as many of you have repeatedly pointed out, the showrunner and writers are not servicing his character in a fair way.  So, I won't let them make me forget all the difficult and scary and heroic things the boys have done all along.  ;)

[Ninamags]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He'll be the guy who sacrificed the world for his brother.

And, honestly? I'd be okay with that.

This is after all, "The epic love story of Sam and Dean Winchester" 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Cambion said:

Sam really didn't know what he was in for, so he was able to keep himself brave in the face of what he feared.

Sam did know what he was in for.  Because Dean told him, and was even made to down play what he went through.  "Your tour will make mine look like graceland." 

 

3 minutes ago, Cambion said:

why then wasn't Sam called a coward for those actions?

He wasn't Sam.  He wasn't doing it becuae he was sacred.  He was doing it because he didn't want his soul back.

 

4 minutes ago, Cambion said:

so he was able to keep himself brave in the face of what he feared.

This is the problem.  Dean needs to be brave in the face of what he fears.  For the show just to have him say, nope not doing it, will make him seem weaker than Sam because Sam faced what he knew was going to be a  life time of torture. 

I hope I'm wrong but I don't want to be set up for disappointment.

1 minute ago, Ninamags said:

And, honestly? I'd be okay with that.

This is after all, "The epic love story of Sam and Dean Winchester" 

I'm not.  Throwing the world under the bus for one person, make Dean selfish, and not a  hero and it makes what Sam said about him true.  "You're only willing to do the sacrificing if your not the one being hurt.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Juxtapose that against his screaming "don't put that thing back in me!" and running off and attempting to kill Bobby to keep from having his soul reinserted - why then wasn't Sam called a coward for those actions?  Srsly why?  Because I think we all saw he'd reached his breaking point upon learning that his soul had endured a year of torture and not the few hours that his body and consciousness had. So, in the face of that horror his fear was understandable and not a measure of cowardice.  

That was Soulless!Sam and he just wanted to continue to exist as Soulless!Sam which he wouldn`t if he was resouled. An entirely different situation to me. 

Quote

Anyway, I agree,  it's not fair to paint Dean with the results of one event.  

The world is at stake, though. This is one event that would be utterly defining. So yes, I`d say it would cancel out what came before because it showed that when it truly counted, he couldn`t hack it.  

I thought they made Gabriel into a complete wimp with that "boohoo, I got tortured for 7 measly years and now I`m catatonic" in lights of what other characters have gone through and that he was supposed to be an archangel. But it was just Gabriel. I really, really don`t want them to do anything like that to Dean. I was so happy in "Nihilism" when Dean`s strength got pointed out. That is basically the aspect I treasure most about the character. I don`t want to see that destroyed. 

Quote

And, honestly? I'd be okay with that.

This is after all, "The epic love story of Sam and Dean Winchester" 

To me people who`d willingly sell away the whole world for one person - and never stop to think that "the world" includes that person and they will die anyway - deserve to at least suffer a million times more than all the people they damned before it ends. So if Dean did that, Sam should be killed right in front of him and then he should be shoved into the box and thrown at the bottom of the ocean anyway for eternal torment. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

Well, with the epic writing on this show, the reality is that both Sam and Dean have caused multiple world-ending crises because of their love for each other and determination to save the other.  So if that's the criteria for deciding whether they're brave or cowardly, then I guess they're both cowards.  That's the problem with fiction, your heroes can only be heroes until the writers need them to do something stupid for dramatic effect.

[Bobcatkitten]

46 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This won't apply to Dean if he backs out.  He'll be the guy who sacrificed the world for his brother.

Why are we imagining the worst? 

[Ninamags]

16 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

then I guess they're both cowards

Well, yeah, if you consider that neither is willing to go on without the other. Multiple times they've almost ended the world because of possible deadly consequences to the other brother and NOT caring what happens to the world. (Amara). 

[Aeryn13]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, with the epic writing on this show, the reality is that both Sam and Dean have caused multiple world-ending crises because of their love for each other and determination to save the other.  So if that's the criteria for deciding whether they're brave or cowardly, then I guess they're both cowards.  That's the problem with fiction, your heroes can only be heroes until the writers need them to do something stupid for dramatic effect.

They really skated the edge a few times but I don't think they've done something like this would be. To me the only equivalent would be 5.22. And as we know Sam jumped and Dean let him. 

If they find an alternative to the box idea or learn that it's not gonna work, that's fine. Pulling a blubbering Gabriel would not be. That guy needed to badly grow a pair.

And Dean should know that holding back Michael has to be a priority because he got out, I'm pretty sure this time he would just wring Sam's neck and be done with it anyways.  

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

Well, yeah, if you consider that neither is willing to go on without the other. Multiple times they've almost ended the world because of possible deadly consequences to the other brother and NOT caring what happens to the world. (Amara). 

A suspension of disbelief is a requirement to be a Supernatural fan.  I watch for the brothers' relationship, so when they do whatever is needed to save the other, it makes me happy.  I have to disregard the fact that they've inadvertently caused most of the crises they've faced, otherwise the show makes no sense.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And as we know Sam jumped and Dean let him. 

And Dean became the bomb to destroy Amara, and Sam let him.  So we've seen both scenarios played out numerous times.  Whether Sam allows Dean to sacrifice himself this time, and yet Dean is somehow saved, or whether Sam, Cas and Mary convince him there's another way, the end result is the same to me, and Dean isn't a coward either way.  But we can debate this issue till the cows come home, and obviously, we each see it differently, which is fine.  

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Cambion said:

 I have to disagree.  In that scenario it looks like Sam misinterprets the message and that Dean was reacting to whatever it was that he was yelling for Sam about.  Which could be as simple as "can you hear me now?"  Because, srsly guys, the last few promos haven't really shown much of the actual storyline.  So we have a tiny, out of context scene that they chose for the promo specifically to get everyone in a tizzy so we'll tune in.  So, unless Dean really turns out to be yelling "Sam, Sammy, get me out of here! I've got a code brown and can't hack it!" I'm gonna go with Dean's not a coward.  (Which I don't think I'd ever call him anyway.  Everyone has their breaking point, and breaking doesn't make you a coward if you've spent your entire life being brave until that point.)

And comparing it to Sam's experience is really another red herring.  Sam really didn't know what he was in for, so he was able to keep himself brave in the face of what he feared.  Dean saw the aftermath of Sam's cohabitation with Micheal and Lucifer and it was definitely worse than they thought.  So Dean has a pretty good actual idea of what will happen to him, not just a guess - however educated - which was what they had before Sam's time in the cage.  (I know, Dean said it was going to be worse, but they didn't know how much worse as evidenced by Sam still being able to go through with the swan dive.  Juxtapose that against his screaming "don't put that thing back in me!" and running off and attempting to kill Bobby to keep from having his soul reinserted - why then wasn't Sam called a coward for those actions?  Srsly why?  Because I think we all saw he'd reached his breaking point upon learning that his soul had endured a year of torture and not the few hours that his body and consciousness had. So, in the face of that horror his fear was understandable and not a measure of cowardice.  

Anyway, I agree,  it's not fair to paint Dean with the results of one event.  Particularly if, as many of you have repeatedly pointed out, the showrunner and writers are not servicing his character in a fair way.  So, I won't let them make me forget all the difficult and scary and heroic things the boys have done all along.  ;)

I disagree, Sam knew what he was in for.  Dean had already gone to Hell.  Not the cage maybe but he certainly would have to figure it would include torture, etc.  So Sam knew he was in for eternal torture.  Sam wasn't supposed to "get out", so it was an eternity thing.   I don't think the measure of "well how much worse" really matters, it was terrible even in a best case scenario and eventually leading the loss of self.

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But it's Sam's smugness that bothers me the most in that sneak peek. Hopefully, that's just JP and not Sam.

I didn't see it as smugnes. For me it was something else. I  think we're missing an important piece of the puzzle that would make what Sam said and the way he said it make more sense... I think the key is when Dean says (paraphrase) "after what we talked about last night." My guess - and only a guess - is that Sam (and likely Mary) wanted Dean to wait, because they have faith that Dean can keep Michael contained for a while longer and maybe they can find a better way. Maybe Sam even expresses skepticism about what Billie told Dean. Dean tells them "No, I'm not waiting. There's no guarantee unless I do this now, so I'm gonna do it. Are you going to support me on this?" Sam says he will, but he doesn't like it.

If something like that was the previous conversation, then Sam's saying he'd support Dean's decision, but "it wouldn't be the worst thing" if Dean did get shaky and call his plan off, entirely makes sense to me. ...because he (Sam) wouldn't mind if Dean waited and didn't go through with it, because he thinks Dean can hold Michael and wants more time to find a better solution ... In other words, kind of the MoC situation, except we're in the early stages (where Sam thinks Dean can entirely handle it and wants to have Dean a little longer). Then Sam's expression and words would be saying (to me)... "I told you last night that I think you can handle this and we can wait a little longer before this drastic decision, so you know how I feel about this. I'll support your decision if I have to, but I don't have to like it and entirely wouldn't think that you changing your mind and waiting would be the worst thing that could happen in this situation."

That's my interpretation of the scene and Sam's expression and words. And it wouldn't make either of them look badly, because Dean wants to be sure (go through with it) while Sam has faith that Dean can hold on until they find a better way (less endangering the world and more faith in Dean.) And I would understand both of their positions in that case.

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It's demon Dean all over again.  A good story has to be interrupted for a very special episode.  This is another reason don't believe Dabb has a long term plan.  The 300th should be incorporated into the story rather then the story dropped to accomodate it.

And I can't be sure yet that a good story will be dropped in order to accommodate the 300th episode...

But then again, I disagree that cutting Demon Dean short was dropping a "good story." It was a good idea and it was acted very well by Jensen, but in my opinion, that just made the story look better than it actually was... at least as it was written. In my opinion, the whole Demon Dean as the little demon who just wanted to have fun and didn't hurt anybody while mean, old Sam - who was worse than a demon  - selfishly wanted to make him just Dean again and ruin all his fun wasn't really that original of a storyline (wasn't the whole "who is the real monster?" a thing in Carver's other previous series?) and flew in the face of previous show canon besides. Soulless Sam was written as colder and scarier than Demon Dean was, in my opinion. Shouldn't a "twisted" soul further influenced by a dark power have been darker and even more dangerous than no soul at all? (I think so.) So for me personally, unless the writers were willing to take the Demon Dean storyline to where it should have gone - which to me was Demon Dean not only deciding that he was bored with his current gig and watching his skin heal itself, but that he was way above these humans - and cheating, I'm-going-to-kill-my-wife-so-I-don't-have-to-give-up-half my-stuff Lester should've been enough incentive on that one - and start killing them off vigilante style. If he wanted to go after crappy humans, all the better (and would be in character for even a twisted Dean). And why wouldn't he do that. Dean was a demon and that's what demons do and had done in the entire history of the show.

So if they weren't going to do that - and in my opinion, they didn't have the guts to go there - then I was more than ready to see their lame "who's the real monster" version of demon Dean's story come to an end sooner rather than later.

In my opinion, the Michael storyline is - at least at present - not comparable to the Demon Dean storyline, because that one (the Demon Dean storyline) was never going to be allowed to go anywhere. The way it was handled, the Demon Dean storyline just didn't have the same potential... it only had one way to go, and whether Sam cured Dean in the 3rd episode or the 13th it was only going to be more of the same until the only end game in town - Sam curing Dean - happened.

The Michael storyline, on the other hand, still has potential and, in my opinion, in light of Michael's new motivation and the prison in Dean's brain twist, still has a number of different ways it can go. And I think finding a way to leave Michael in Dean's head and leaving the option of the cage open until "oohh what's going to happen? Will Dean be able to deal with Michael? Will Dean get worse and get someone else to help put him in the cage?Or will Sam finally see Dean needs him to do this for him? Will Sam and Mary be wrong and will Michael escape? (My prediction, because... well you know why.) or any number of scenarios... would be the best way for the writers to continue this storyline and the suspense while still having Monster of the Week episodes and angst at the same time. And if they give us a taste of what Dean would have to endure - via a dream, or premonition, or whatever - will make the angst and suspense even more so.

In my opinion, they'd be crazy to come up with the clever Michael trapped in Dean's head thing just to drop it... aaaand the box is there as a back up in case Dean gets worse and provides a means of explaining why Sam and Dean are working cases instead of worrying about Michael in Dean's head. They don't have to worry! They have a ready solution - a ready made box - right there should they need it, and we have a Dean willing to do it (with maybe some angst to via the dream, vision or whatever,) so voila: answer when we need it - i.e. at the end of the season - and we have a reason it can be ignored until then because 1) Billie says it's the only way (no need to actively look for anything else except in the background) 2) it's ready to go at a moment's notice when we need it, so 3) we can ignore it until then.

It's nearly perfect for their needs, so I think they'd have to be very short-sighted to give that up, myself. I don't think it will be resolved in the next couple of episodes. Or at least I hope it won't, because it looks to me like they've set it all up to give them the best of everything: an angsty situation, a big bad when they want to spring him (like say at the end of the season or the  beginning of next), and a means to semi-ignore him and do standalones until they're ready.

My worry is that they'll somehow make Michael getting out of Dean's head (or the box) Sam's fault somehow - like he talks Dean out of going into the box because he supposedly has a plan with Rowena or something, or he "pokes" the box when he shouldn't, or he hears Dean calling for him and goes to get him out even though he promised Dean that he wouldn't no matter what Dean may say, or something similar.

Based on show history, I think that is much more of a concern than having Dean wimp out.

Just my opinion on that.

Edited January 31, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[juppschmitz]

8 hours ago, Ninamags said:

And, honestly? I'd be okay with that.

This is after all, "The epic love story of Sam and Dean Winchester" 

I just can't put into words how much I personally disagree with this. On various levels.

Edited January 31, 2019 by juppschmitz

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But then again, I disagree that cutting Demon Dean short was dropping a "good story.

The problem is that dropping the Demon Dean story is that it was never given time and effort from the writers to actually develop it.  It's like they came up with it to give Jensen something to do for a couple of eps.  Because demon Dean just wanted to have fun at the start, doesn't mean that if the writers decided to tell the story it had to stay that way.  Demon Dean could have gotten darker.  I was actually hoping we would see Dean's darker side explored more.  I find the contrast between Dean's dark and light side fascinating. 

I loved how ruthless and uncompromising Dean was in The Prisoner.  I'd would have loved and episode like the Dark/Light Charlie for Dean.  It's why part of me wants Dean to end up in the box.  Because I think the aftermath of a slightly unhinged Dean would be great to watch. 

So far for me the Michael storyline is a big dud.  Jensen is killing it in the acting department, but aside from one episode there really wasn't much focus on him.  I think Demon Dean got more focus in those 3 eps then Michael's gotten in 2/3 of the season so far. 

8 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

(I'd rather they kept Michael in the dean-cage if

They have the perfect opportunity to let Jensen play Michael for the rest of the season.  But is Dabb going to be smart enough to take advantage of it?

[Hana Chan]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem is that dropping the Demon Dean story is that it was never given time and effort from the writers to actually develop it.  It's like they came up with it to give Jensen something to do for a couple of eps.  Because demon Dean just wanted to have fun at the start, doesn't mean that if the writers decided to tell the story it had to stay that way.  Demon Dean could have gotten darker.  I was actually hoping we would see Dean's darker side explored more.  I find the contrast between Dean's dark and light side fascinating. 

Had the writers taken Demon Dean to the logical extent that it could have, what would that have meant for Dean's character in the end? After all, they couldn't keep him as a demon forever and once he was back to normal, how would he handle all the things that he did as a demon? We already know that he was haunted by what he did in hell in order to get off the rack but that could be excused because of the extreme conditions he was operating under. I don't think that anyone would blame Dean for giving in to stop what had been decades of torture.

But doing the harm that a demon could do topside if given free rein? Would Dean be able to handle the fact that he killed and maimed innocents for shits and giggles. If he raped, would he go back to being the Dean that we all know and love? Sure, it would be fascinating but it would be devastating to his character and how the audience is being asked to see his character. Sure, we would be able to excuse those things to a certain degree because these are things that Dean would not have done under normal circumstances (the way that Sam's behavior while he was soulless should be excused), but he would still have the shoulder the fact that he did those things. I think that the writers made the right call by pulling the plug on that storyline when they did because letting it go on would have irrevocably changed Dean's character. 

I feel the same way about the Michael/Dean storyline. At least when Sam was possessed by Lucifer, it was for a brief period and we didn't have to sit through watching Sam being a tool used to destroy the world. So far, Dean had been far more effective in allowing Michael to fulfill his plans and I think that there's only so long and so far that the writers can push things before really causing damage to Dean's character. At some point they are going to have to figure out a way to extradite Dean out of this mess without ruining him in the process which means there's only so far they can push things. 

Quote

My worry is that they'll somehow make Michael getting out of Dean's head (or the box) Sam's fault somehow - like he talks Dean out of going into the box because he supposedly has a plan with Rowena or something, or he "pokes" the box when he shouldn't, or he hears Dean calling for him and goes to get him out even though he promised Dean that he wouldn't no matter what Dean may say, or something similar.

Based on show history, I think that is much more of a concern than having Dean wimp out.

The box is no more a good solution than Sam throwing himself into Lucifer's cage for all eternity. Makes for good drama, but I used to get totally steamed whenever I read that Swan Song would have made a good series finale if that was the way things panned out. Sure... what a great ending for the show. Dean goes on to a not-so-happily ever after, playing house with his bendy ex while Sam gets to spend all eternity in the deepest depths of hell.

Likewise, Dean's story ending trapped in a box with a vengeful archangel for all eternity is not how I would want to see his story end. And we know that it's not ending so the writers are going to have to pull us back from the edge that they were ready to pitch us over and give some kind of excuse as to why they didn't go that route. Either the box doesn't work, or one of the boys has to pull the plug on the idea. Otherwise Dean ends up meeting a very bleak (and I would argue anti-climatic) end. 

[Hana Chan]

14 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Whether Sam allows Dean to sacrifice himself this time, and yet Dean is somehow saved, or whether Sam, Cas and Mary convince him there's another way, the end result is the same to me, and Dean isn't a coward either way.  But we can debate this issue till the cows come home, and obviously, we each see it differently, which is fine.  

I'll be the last to argue that Dean would be a coward for not sentencing himself to eternity locked away with Michael. Not if there's any kind of remote chance of another solution. And I wouldnt' blame Sam in the least for trying to get his brother out of this fix. I watch this show for the two of them and it would be nice to find a solution that doesn't involve one sibling willing to sentence themselves to eternal torment. Yeah, it'll probably make a bigger mess to clean up but hell... we need some kind of plotline for season 15. 

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, they'd be crazy to come up with the clever Michael trapped in Dean's head thing just to drop it... aaaand the box is there as a back up in case Dean gets worse and provides a means of explaining why Sam and Dean are working cases instead of worrying about Michael in Dean's head. They don't have to worry! They have a ready solution - a ready made box - right there should they need it, and we have a Dean willing to do it (with maybe some angst to via the dream, vision or whatever,) so voila: answer when we need it - i.e. at the end of the season - and we have a reason it can be ignored until then because 1) Billie says it's the only way (no need to actively look for anything else except in the background) 2) it's ready to go at a moment's notice when we need it, so 3) we can ignore it until then.

It's nearly perfect for their needs, so I think they'd have to be very short-sighted to give that up, myself. I don't think it will be resolved in the next couple of episodes. Or at least I hope it won't, because it looks to me like they've set it all up to give them the best of everything: an angsty situation, a big bad when they want to spring him (like say at the end of the season or the  beginning of next), and a means to semi-ignore him and do standalones until they're ready.

I would love to keep the Michael trapped in Dean's head storyline.

That being said, I don't see how Dean can go on hunts in that case. If he dies, Michael is out. And sometimes people die instantaneously. No time to get him into the box then. And can he even keep Michael trapped if he's just knocked unconscious? Do we know if he's slept since it happened because how is he keeping him trapped while he sleeps if doing that centers around the strength of his will. If I were Michael, I'd be trying to figure out Dean's waking and sleeping cycles even now.

No, the only plausible way that I can see this storyline going forward in a decently written way and until season's end is if they can somehow shore up the door better until then-maybe magically seal it via Rowena as someone else pointed out(I think it would be amazing if the door had to be magically sealed from the inside in order for it to hold longer. Then we'd get to see Michael!Dean again).

But the immediate writing problem remains how are they going to make Dean change his mind about going into the box immediately-because his arguments are very valid and yes, he is the one keeping Michael in, so no one knows better than him how close to breaking out the archangel is.

We know that we're getting that Dean in the box scene tonight. And we know Dean is going to panic in there, at some point( and yes, IA, who wouldn't), but that can't be the only reason that he decides not to go through with it, IMO-not if they want to maintain the integrity of the character, that is. Unfortunately, I don't think that Dabb cares that much at all about maintaining Dean's integrity as a character and that's why tonight's episode will be yet another turning point for many in the Dean fandom as regards continuing to watch the show.

IOW, the reason that Dean changes his mind has to be more than just and only that he's scared of the manner of his death. After all, and as has been pointed out by others-this is a man who's faced horrific deaths many times before, including being buried alive once before, and torn to shreds by hellhounds(and he knew very well, what that would entail). This is a man who apparently "thrives" on trauma, so fear being the big reason that he changes his mind would only amount to character assassination(IMO) precisely because it would be so completely OOC for Dean.

The big We need you, Dean speech is probably the road that they will take because the only thing Dean values more than his own wishes(regarding pretty much anything and yup, sadly, even over the fate of the world) is the wishes of his loved ones. That's how they usually get their way with him and even he knows this and it was why he originally wanted to do it in secret. He even said that to Sam.

My worst feelings spring from the thought that this is going to become more about how they're going to go about remedying Dean's abandonment issues with Sam than it will be about any concern for how the Dean character will come off afterwards-and the reasons for this belong more in the B vs J thread(as do my feelings as to why I think  Dean's/JA's storylines are too often cut short and/or dropped) than in this one, so I'll stop now, just to be safe.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

 

I feel the same way about the Michael/Dean storyline. At least when Sam was possessed by Lucifer, it was for a brief period and we didn't have to sit through watching Sam being a tool used to destroy the world. So far, Dean had been far more effective in allowing Michael to fulfill his plans and I think that there's only so long and so far that the writers can push things before really causing damage to Dean's character. At some point they are going to have to figure out a way to extradite Dean out of this mess without ruining him in the process which means there's only so far they can push things. 

 

That depends. As seen here, different things can ruin a character for different people. To me cowardice is the ruinator number 1.

Now Dean obviously isn't going to end at the bottom of the ocean but if that was his actual end, I'd consider it tragic but deeply heroic. There are far worse endings the character could have than to go out protecting the world. 

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now Dean obviously isn't going to end at the bottom of the ocean but if that was his actual end, I'd consider it tragic but deeply heroic. There are far worse endings the character could have than to go out protecting the world. 

IF the writers show us in no uncertain terms that this would be the only way to contain Michael and that the consequences would mean the total destruction of the world, then I might be able to swallow that kind of an end for Dean. But I'll be as frustrated as I was at the idea of Sam being trapped in Hell for all eternity. It might be a heroic, self-sacrificing display, but one that will leave me deeply unsatisfied if that is indeed the final end.

My guess is that the writers will give them an out that's very risky and dangerous (and probably will make bigger problems later, but that's par for the course) and make that kind of a sacrifice unnecessary. But I don't equate not wanting to throw yourself into an iron box at the bottom of the ocean with a crazy archangel for all eternity would make Dean a coward. That's not being willing to die - it's more on the level of what he (and Sam) were willing when they sacrificed themselves to Hell. 

Dean has not, nor has he ever been a coward. But having an iota of self-preservation and self-worth - that he deserves more than to throw himself to the bottom of the ocean - won't change that for me. He's been willing to die and has suffered too many time for that. He'll work with Sam and Castiel and find another way. 

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

IF the writers show us in no uncertain terms that this would be the only way to contain Michael and that the consequences would mean the total destruction of the world, then I might be able to swallow that kind of an end for Dean. But I'll be as frustrated as I was at the idea of Sam being trapped in Hell for all eternity. It might be a heroic, self-sacrificing display, but one that will leave me deeply unsatisfied if that is indeed the final end.

My guess is that the writers will give them an out that's very risky and dangerous (and probably will make bigger problems later, but that's par for the course) and make that kind of a sacrifice unnecessary. But I don't equate not wanting to throw yourself into an iron box at the bottom of the ocean with a crazy archangel for all eternity would make Dean a coward. That's not being willing to die - it's more on the level of what he (and Sam) were willing when they sacrificed themselves to Hell. 

Dean has not, nor has he ever been a coward. But having an iota of self-preservation and self-worth - that he deserves more than to throw himself to the bottom of the ocean - won't change that for me. He's been willing to die and has suffered too many time for that. He'll work with Sam and Castiel and find another way. 

Like I said, I'd have no problem with exploring alternatives and other options. The box idea itself is not the hill I want to die on.

What makes or breaks it for me it's how it was presented. I just don't want to see wimpiness like from Gabriel in the "after torture" ep. Which was acceptable because Gabriel more or less has always been on the cowardly wimpy side. Heck, Chuck himself appears to be rather wimpy. Amara definitely showed more cojones than him.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Aeryn13