These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

PAForrest · January 22, 2019

12 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Having said all that, if there is not enough time in the episode to dig in the complex relationship between Dean and John, one of the most fascinating and fundamental aspects of the show, then there shouldn't be "enough time" to go into the relationship between Sam and John. Because then the episode won't be about the continuing story of Dean and Sam, about what each of the two main characters might need or should get, it will simply be about the gimmick. If so, let's get the gimmick over with, so that maybe we could go back to telling a story.

Yahtzee. If Dabb can't find it in him to have a poignant scene between Dean and John, as well as Sam and John and Mary and John, then the episode is an epic fail and I just want to move past it already.

Edited January 22, 2019 by PAForrest

gonzosgirrl · January 22, 2019

6 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Given how the archangel blade didn't kill Nick for whatever reason, stabbing Dean with it seems like a pretty solid solution lol.

Would they do something so stupid as have Sam take in Lucifer again long enough to use the blade to kill Michael (and not Dean), thinking he would then be strong enough to dump Luci back in the cage? An unimaginable choice, that fits with the returning character helping a lead (juicing up on demon blood for the big match*), and satisfies Dabb's hard-on for Hero!Sam and Useless!Dean. (sorry, that last bit probably belongs in BvJ) It seems like something ~~Dabb~~ Sam would come up with if Dean tells him the only way to defeat Michael is for [Dean] to die.

The only thing dumber than a reboot of Samifer, would be trusting Nickifer to do the job. But then, Bucklemming. Of course they could go full stupid and try Casifer. Heh.

*Ooh, I just remembered Zachariah is making a comeback - the guy whose entire raison d'être was to help bring about the Dean/Sam Michael/Lucifer fight. Hmmm. Imagine his smug face telling them I told you so.

Edited January 22, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

Myrelle · January 22, 2019

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Yahtzee. If Dabb can't find it in him to have a poignant scene between Dean and John, as well as Sam and John and Mary and John, then the episode is an epic fail and I just want to move past it already.

Ditto.

And if someone(anyone!) doesn't even mention to dear old dad how fucked up Dean is because of the parentification, I'll see John's return as a Fail(at least where it concerns the writing) also.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Myrelle

catrox14 · January 22, 2019

I think the the only person who logically should wield the archangel blade is Jack. Sams choice might be asking his "son" to kill Michael or having to accept Jack making the choice himself. He still has his powers if he uses pieces if his soul. The sacrifice would be Jack's potential lossof soul. Cas could go back to the dude that gave him Gabriel's grace and get more to bump up Jack's power.

I mean why else intoduce the loss of Jack's soul if he doesn't do that to save one of his Dads? Unless the intend to turn Jack into Anakin Skywalker by doing so. It would also harken back to Kripke saying Sam was like Luke Skywalker and Dean is Han Solo. Michael is kind of Emperor Palpatine trying to lure Anakin to the "dark side".

ILoveReading · January 22, 2019

Sneak peek

Dean, apparently doesn't research anymore and it seems he really does need to ask supreme leader chief's permission to anything because it very much sounds like he's asking for permission.

ILoveReading · January 22, 2019

https://www.thetvaddict.com/2019/01/22/supernatural-samantha-smith-talks-marys-return-and-her-growing-relationship-with-her-sons/

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Expect to see more about Mary and Bobby’s developing relationship in the coming episode.I think more importantly is where it came from — which was camaraderie and trust and having gone through hardship together. As far as where it will go, it’s too soon to tell. They’re both very damaged people. I think weirdly Bobby is even more damaged than Mary. So that’s a lot to sort through, but the next time you see us some more of that will come to light.”

Because when Dean has been possessed by an arch angel, and has him trapped in his head, spending the episode talking about Mary and Bobby is exactly what they should focus on. I just cannot express how much I don't care about Mary and Bobby's relationship.

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there are some solid relationships in Mary’s life: her relationship with her sons. “I think that they’ve come a lot way, again with trust and maybe the fear that she’s going to disappear again forever is abated. And I think that they’re more friends now than anything. It’s not like they’re going to listen to her, but they do have a respect and there’s so much love there. And typical Winchesters, always trying to take one for the team to protect everyone else. It’s just…we all take turns.”

Sam Smith really is clueless about how Mary comes across.

Aeryn13 · January 22, 2019

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Dean, apparently doesn't research anymore and it seems he really does need to ask supreme leader chief's permission to anything because it very much sounds like he's asking for permission.

In this case, I think he doesn`t research because the book already gave him an answer - and he clearly already has some kind of plan. I also didn`t take it like he asked for permission but just tried to make up a cover story to get away and work on whatever his plan is. Welding the thing probably.

And he needs a cover story because if he just took off in his current condition, of course Sam (and Cas) would be concerned and worried.

I didn`t like this line about asking Sam about Jack going on hunts couple episodes back but this one really doesn`t strike me in the same vein. It`s something Dean would have done way before the Chief-arc ever materialized.

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Sam Smith really is clueless about how Mary comes across.

Yup, that I gotta completely agree with. That sounds like Mary`s self-involved attitude internalized. Respect and love? The one thing is probably true is that the constant dread of her going away again has abated - but I would call that resignation. Even Dean seems to have hopefully stopped wringing blood from a stone. Seriously, Michael`s big plan to crush and disappoint him completely? Mary already did it better. I hope Dean is too busy welding his death box so his interactions with the Ice Queen are minimalized.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Aeryn13

tessathereaper · January 23, 2019

I do wish they wouldn't have made Dean the one to instigate the "two-fer", I get so tired of him chasing after people who don't give a damn about him, even if it partly an excuse to do something else. Or that they don't have Dean doing anything to research this - BUT I'm pretty sure they would have read the bible years ago, including the apocrypha and stuff, when they were first dealing with angels(never mind research on demons who are mentioned from time to time). I mean as I recall Dean even figured out how to solve um...I think was episode 5.2(the one with War) because of he remembered something from the Bible.

I suppose it's because he got the Death of Dean Winchester(Without Michael Destroying the World)book and knows how it ends so figures that part of it is mostly busy work but still I hate how they've even taken so much of the research away from him. He's left to swing around like some useless additional limb.

tessathereaper · January 23, 2019

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I'm not sure how this cage thing works, but we know from Sam's experience with Lucifer, keeping him at bay, even while hopped up on demon blood, wasn't an easy thing. And he literally did it for a few minutes, if that. The reality of Dean walking around with Michael locked up inside him should have all of them crapping their pants. It's not a Sam vs. Dean thing, it's just common sense. They have no idea how this works, or whether Michael has any influence over Dean at this point. Sending him off for a visit with mom, by himself, is just a bad decision all the way around. I'm sure he'll go, just like I'm sure Sam would have gone, had the story called for it, but that doesn't make it any less of a stupid idea, IMO.

That wasn't really my point. Common sense it may be, but that's now how it would have been handled in show or in fandom IMO, going by previous multiple years of experience. We'd get the show telling us, IMO, Dean was wrong for not trusting Sam and not letting Sam do what he wanted, being controlling and bossy and mean. Other characters would agree with this viewpoint about Dean's oppression of poor poor Sam. We'd most likely get an apology from Dean at some point about how he was so wrong for not trusting Sam completely and utterly. And we'd get certain vocal portions of fandom agreeing and writing diatribes about how abusive and controlling Dean is.

As such, I'm quite fine with Sam not putting Dean on a leash(though I'm sure it will all be still be couched in terms in Sam's favor, which IMO it wouldn't be if the shoe was on the other foot)

Edited January 23, 2019 by tessathereaper

7kstar · January 23, 2019

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We now know that Sam and Dean's father, John Winchester (Jeffrey Dean Morgan) will make an appearance in Episode 300, thanks to a wish-granting scenario that will occur for Dean. The elder Winchester won't be the only one to get closure from John's visit though. Padalecki told TV Guide that this episode will be very cathartic for Sam, who always had a turbulent relationship with his father.

From the article, it looks like both brother's get something. So Jared may be allowed to say more so we get a surprise with Dean...at least I'm hoping this is true. FanFiction made many of the fans happy so I'm hoping they will do this too this time around. So for now, I'll hold my complaints.

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2019

I do hope it's way better than Fan Fiction because serious meh to that ep.

However, maybe they should temper expectations for the John part a bit. He only filmed for 2 days. That doesn't shake out to a lot of the ep. One reunion, a scene with each brother, one with the Ice Queen and one goodbye. Tops.

hunenka · January 23, 2019

7 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I hate how they've even taken so much of the research away from him. He's left to swing around like some useless additional limb.

I feel the same way. Though in this particular case from the sneak peek, I'm trying to also explain it as Dean being reluctant to do research on Michael, because with Michael still inside him, there's a chance Michael would know of whatever new info and plan they'd possibly come up with.

(But let's be real... I'm sure that never even crossed the writers' minds, especially since it seems that Dean's building some sort of a physical cage for himself/Michael in the episode, so again, if Michael is listening, he'll know what to expect just the same.)

ILoveReading · January 23, 2019

3 hours ago, hunenka said:

there's a chance Michael would know of whatever new info and plan they'd possibly come up with.

In this case, then Michael would know what was in the book since Dean read it. So him doing research really wouldn't matter.

SueB · January 23, 2019

5 hours ago, hunenka said:

I feel the same way. Though in this particular case from the sneak peek, I'm trying to also explain it as Dean being reluctant to do research on Michael, because with Michael still inside him, there's a chance Michael would know of whatever new info and plan they'd possibly come up with.

(But let's be real... I'm sure that never even crossed the writers' minds, especially since it seems that Dean's building some sort of a physical cage for himself/Michael in the episode, so again, if Michael is listening, he'll know what to expect just the same.)

I was thinking "why bother, Dean HAS the answer." The way he's looking at Sammy, so fondly, it's like he's seeing Sam's effort in a different light -- it's a recognition that this is Sam "going down swinging" by hitting the books first. It's a lovely little moment IMO.

ILoveReading · January 23, 2019

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

I was thinking "why bother, Dean HAS the answer." The way he's looking at Sammy, so fondly, it's like he's seeing Sam's effort in a different light -- it's a recognition that this is Sam "going down swinging" by hitting the books first. It's a lovely little moment IMO.

Sam and Dean have repeatedly done this. Why would he see Sam in a different light? I will call BS is they try to say Dean never noticed before.

Myrelle · January 23, 2019

On 1/22/2019 at 8:43 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Would they do something so stupid as have Sam take in Lucifer again long enough to use the blade to kill Michael (and not Dean), thinking he would then be strong enough to dump Luci back in the cage? An unimaginable choice, that fits with the returning character helping a lead (juicing up on demon blood for the big match*), and satisfies Dabb's hard-on for Hero!Sam and Useless!Dean. (sorry, that last bit probably belongs in BvJ) It seems like something ~~Dabb~~ Sam would come up with if Dean tells him the only way to defeat Michael is for [Dean] to die.

Something seemingly innocuous that JP said in one of the more recent interviews for the 300th episode sent up a red flag for me. He said that after the reconciliation with John, Sam could die happy-and I know, it's a very general statement, but it has reignited all those bait and switch fears in me, even for this week's episode.

I don't know what the "unimaginable" choice is, but I sure do hope that it doesn't involve the first steps toward Sam taking over this storyline completely by becoming the cage for Michael in order to "spare" Dean from having to do it.

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do hope it's way better than Fan Fiction because serious meh to that ep.

You and me both, and as an addendum, I'll add that the 100th episode included the first steps toward the first(and for many in the Dean fandom, still the biggest and worst) bait and switch this show has ever given us.

And that one involved a "re-write" of the episode, also.

Not liking the feel of things with all this pimping of the John and Sam interactions and crickets on Dean and John in the 300th at all now.

I'm beginning to smell another bait and switch also. I can only hope that I'm wrong and just being paranoid, but I'm afraid that after that brief foray into the show I used to love last week, we're now going to return to Dabbnatural w/o interruption.

Ugh. I hate that the writing on this show never allows some of us in the Dean fandom to just enjoy something when it happens any more, and instead rush to crush any hope that it will last longer than the blink of an eye as soon as they possibly can; and I'm now officially worried that this is what's going to happen with this awesome new storyline that Yockey set up for Dean in last week's episode.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Myrelle

SueB · January 23, 2019

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam and Dean have repeatedly done this. Why would he see Sam in a different light? I will call BS is they try to say Dean never noticed before.

It's not that he never noticed this before, it's that ... as he's mentally saying goodbye... he sees his brother dig in, yet again, to fight the good fight. And when you are dug in right next to them -- it's not the same. Now Dean is sitting back and looking at Sam from a different POV -- one where he already knows (in his mind) the outcome and he can savor the dedication in a different way.

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Something seemingly innocuous that JP said in one of the more recent interviews for the 300th episode sent up a red flag for me. He said that after the reconciliation with John, Sam could die happy-and I know, it's very general statement, but it has reignited all those bait and switch fears in me for this week's episode, too.

I don't know what the "unimaginable" choice is, but I sure do hope that it doesn't involve the first steps toward Sam taking over this storyline completely by becoming the cage for Michael in order to "spare" Dean from having to do it.

You and me both, and as an addendum, I'll add that the 100th episode included the first steps toward the first(and for many in the Dean fandom, still the biggest and worst bait and switch this show has ever given us.

And that one involved a "re-write" of the episode, also.

Not liking the feel of things with all this pimping of the John and Sam interactions and crickets on Dean and John in the 300th at all now.

I'm beginning to smell another bait and switch also. I can only hope that I'm wrong and just being paranoid, but I'm afraid that after that brief foray into the show I used to love last week, we're now going to return to Dabbnatural w/o interruption.

Ugh. I hate that the writing on this show never allows some of us in the Dean fandom to just enjoy something when it happens any more, and instead rush to crush any hope that it will last longer than the blink of an eye as soon as they possibly can; and I'm now officially worried that this is what's going to happen with this awesome new storyline that Yockey set up for Dean in last week's episode.

Multiple interviews has explicitly stated that EACH get a moment with John - separately. So, it's not been silent.

Myrelle · January 23, 2019

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Multiple interviews has explicitly stated that EACH get a moment with John - separately. So, it's not been silent

Dean's interaction with him is certainly not being pimped like Sam's is, and definitely not as singularly.

Now maybe that is just the promo monkeys at it again, but it's not just JP; JDM is doing it, too.

One can only hope that's what it is at this point, but I'm not taking any chances. I'm just going to resolve to keep my feet on the ground until the end of this season, and this, even after such an awesome Dean episode as the one we were given last week.

I remember what happened after Regarding Dean, too.

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I was thinking "why bother, Dean HAS the answer." The way he's looking at Sammy, so fondly, it's like he's seeing Sam's effort in a different light -- it's a recognition that this is Sam "going down swinging" by hitting the books first. It's a lovely little moment IMO.

I saw Dean as simply resigned to his fate and how to make it happen w/o arousing Sam's suspicions in that sneak peek.

It's kind of funny, but for once I didn't see Jensen as playing concern for anyone other than his own character in a scene that had both brothers in it.

Heh. Will wonders never cease. Yes, he was appreciative of Sam's efforts, but to me, the first sentence here was what that scene was about more than anything else and at it's core.

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2019

After so many years of being disappointed, I'm curiously in a more zen place at the moment. Am I weary of a bait and switch? Kinda. But right now I think it is more likely the Michael story ends in a lame way. The equivalent of the marionette fight, if you will, where Dean was the one to house Michael and even kill Lucifer but Singer somehow still managed to ruin the moment.

Current spec: if we don't find out what the book said in the next episode, it will remain a secret till the Finale.

Right now chances are 50/50 that this welding project is either the book ending or simply an alternative Dean tries to come up with.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Aeryn13

gonzosgirrl · January 23, 2019

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

After so many years of being disappointed, I'm curiously in a more zen place at the moment. Am I weary of a bait and switch? Kinda. But right now I think it is more likely the Michael story ends in a lame way. The equivalent of the marionette fight, if you will, where Dean was the one to house Michael and even kill Lucifer but Singer somehow still managed to ruin the moment.

Current spec: if we don't find out what the book said in the next episode, it will remain a secret till the Finale.

Right now chances are 50/50 that this welding project is either the book ending or simply an alternative Dean tries to come up with.

I think the book says Dean dies in the course of ejecting and killing/caging Michael. I think the story told him how they can achieve that, and that's what he's welding, the means to hold Michael once he's out. But Sam won't want Dean to die, so he'll find a way to take in Lucifer and because Dabb has such a boner for Sam, he'll be able to kill Michael with the angel blade and then force Lucifer back in the cage. Nary a marionette fight in sight

Edited January 23, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

ILoveReading · January 23, 2019

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the book says Dean dies in the course of ejecting and killing/caging Michael. I think the story told him how they can achieve that, and that's what he's welding, the means to hold Michael once he's out. But Sam won't want Dean to die, so he'll find a way to take in Lucifer and because Dabb has such a boner for Sam, he'll be able to kill Michael with the angel blade and then force Lucifer back in the cage. Nary a marionette fight in sight

This is pretty close to my speculation. Since with Dabb it seems to be all or nothing, he won't realize he has a way for Jensen to play Michael for the rest of the season. We could see some scenes in Dean's head of Michael plotting. I'm sure Michael will be out of Dean by the end of episode 12 since Dean has to be normal for episode 13. Either that or Michael will escape at the end of this episode and that is why Dean is in a bad place in ep 12. Jack can use more of soul to heal dean.

I figure Sam's role in this is to save Donna. There was an article that said her and Mary don't meet.

I can see his unimaginable choice being something like, if @Aeryn13 is right and that is Nick's ex-wife, I figure Nick will try to summon Lucifer, and his wife will show up and say your better than this, this isn't the kind of man you are. Then Nick will change his mind but it will be too late and Lucifer will need a vessel. Lucifer will make Sam a deal. He'll stop Michael if Sam will be his vessel. He'll trick Lucifer and lock him up in his mind until they can find Michael.

Edited January 23, 2019 by ILoveReading

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2019

To be honest, I think both Dabb and Bucklemming like Pellegrino best so I can not see them taking Lucifer away from him anymore, not even for a second.

@ILoveReading, why would Dean have to be normal for ep 300? His current situation doesn't make that a neccesity, not like if he was truly possessed. The best thing for disinterested writers like now is they HAVE normal Dean. They can just ignore Michael.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Aeryn13

ILoveReading · January 23, 2019

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

@ILoveReading, why would Dean have to be normal for ep 300? His current situation doesn't make that a neccesity, not like if he was truly possessed. The best thing for disinterested writers like now is they HAVE normal Dean. They can just ignore Michael.

Will this occur to Dabb though?

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2019

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Will this occur to Dabb though?

I don`t think Dabb is really involved with the show much these days beyond writing the Opener and Finale. I mean, okay, he writes the 300th but even that is a shared writing credit with Glynn compared to just him as it was supposed to be earlier. He is not doing the producer`s preview vids anymore and the most he does is tweet stuff before episodes. Which could be done by an assisstant (looking at the tweets, possibly are).

Not sure who is running day-to-day operations atm, Singer and Bucklemming? And they wouldn`t care if it`s not about Nickifer. My hope is that Yockey is being groomed for more responsibilities. Not showrunner per se but de-facto.

That said, there is of course still a very good likelyhood they will either end the story prematurely or bait and switch it. Right now I just think they are too lazy to even do that.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Aeryn13

gonzosgirrl · January 23, 2019

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think Dabb is really involved with the show much these days beyond writing the Opener and Finale. I mean, okay, he writes the 300th but even that is a shared writing credit with Glynn compared to just him as it was supposed to be earlier. He is not doing the producer`s preview vids anymore and the most he does is tweet stuff before episodes. Which could be done by an assisstant (looking at the tweets, possibly are).

Not sure who is running day-to-day operations atm, Singer and Bucklemming? And they wouldn`t care if it`s not about Nickifer. My hope is that Yockey is being groomed for more responsibilities. Not showrunner per se but de-facto.

I'd still like to know why he wasn't involved at the 300th party. I wonder, if the re-write talk/spec is true, if he got his nose out of joint. He seems content to let the twit assistant be his mouthpiece beyond the strange pre-airing quote tweets.

Myrelle · January 23, 2019

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Either that or Michael will escape at the end of this episode and that is why Dean is in a bad place in ep 12. Jack can use more of soul to heal dean.

Yeah, Dean being in a bad place physically in 12 could mean that Michael has escaped. That's my fear, too.

AwesomO4000 · January 23, 2019

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, Dean being in a bad place physically in 12 could mean that Michael has escaped. That's my fear, too.

But then that means that they would have to address an escaped Michael right away when usually they let that type of action wait until the last 3 episodes of the season. I agree with @Aeryn13 that the set up they have now is perfect to have "normal Dean" - and if some of the writers want to throw in a scene or two of Dean being affected, then they can do that, or just let it lie and rely on Jensen to show it - while at the same time having a big bad threat simmering in the background with a perfect set up for him to come busting out for the last episodes of the season.

It would take too much effort in my opinion to introduce yet another big bad we haven't heard anything about yet or come up with - if Lucifer is even coming back in the first place - some bizarre reason why either Sam would say "yes" or Lucifer would even want to take Sam as a vessel again at this point - especially if theoretically Nick is still an iron-clad vessel and is willing to say "yes."

I'm expecting some touchy-feely kind of thing where Dean tries to fulfill his fate from the book, Sam figures it out and comes over there to talk Dean out of it - a la the end of season 8 with reversed roles - and tells Dean he has faith in him and they'll figure this out together, blah, blah, blah and voila, we have "normal" Dean until it all goes south at the end of the season... and then we can have the "I told you sos" and such drama for a bit until they have to pull themselves together and fix the problem while poor Death Billy heaves a heavy sigh of "why oh why won't those ~~stupid~~ stubborn Winchesters listen to me?"

tessathereaper · January 23, 2019

12 hours ago, hunenka said:

I feel the same way. Though in this particular case from the sneak peek, I'm trying to also explain it as Dean being reluctant to do research on Michael, because with Michael still inside him, there's a chance Michael would know of whatever new info and plan they'd possibly come up with.

(But let's be real... I'm sure that never even crossed the writers' minds, especially since it seems that Dean's building some sort of a physical cage for himself/Michael in the episode, so again, if Michael is listening, he'll know what to expect just the same.)

I think so long as Michael is in the freezer he can't see or hear anything else. (Unless its loud enough to be heard through the doors and wall.

AwesomO4000 · January 23, 2019

4 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I think so long as Michael is in the freezer he can't see or hear anything else. (Unless its loud enough to be heard through the doors and wall.

Really good point.

And also Dean did say "my head, my rules" when he put the screwdriver in there to lock it, so if Dean wants the freezer to be an in the background, Michael can't hear a thing part of his brain, then it will be.

ILoveReading · January 23, 2019

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But then that means that they would have to address an escaped Michael right away

Not necessarily, this show often has Sam and Dean on a monster of the week when the big bad is reeking havoc. They'd deal with in their usual fashion by having Sam (because its always Sam lately) say I checked all the usual sources or my army are on Michael's tail. We're told that they're coming back from checking lore when Dean makes a wish. They could easily be looking for Michael.

When Dean left Michael the first time, the show mostly ignored it, even making Michael comment on it (even though every fan asked repeatedly).

I agree they have a great set up for a potentially interesting story, but they've had that in the first half and Michael got the least amount of screen time out of Leader Sam, sick Jack, and Nick.

Just because the set up is there doesn't mean Dabb will take advantage of it.

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It would take too much effort in my opinion to introduce yet another big bad we haven't heard anything about yet or come up with -

They wouldn't really need to come up with another big back if Lucifer is back in play (and I believe he will be, BRL are too in love with the character)

As for why Sam would say yes, if @Aeryn13 theory is correct, that the returning guest character is Lucifer's wife, its possible his wife talks him out of taking Lucifer back and in that case, he'd need a vessel. What other unimaginable choice could Sam make?

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2019

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As for why Sam would say yes, if @AERYN13 theory is correct, that the returning guest character is Lucifer's wife, its possible his wife talks him out of taking Lucifer back and in that case, he'd need a vessel. What other unimaginable choice could Sam make?

The unimaginable choice is in the upcoming episode and what is possibly Nickifer`s wife is in episode 12, though. So, I don`t think those two are related. IMO the choice is gonna be something like Dean asking Sam to seal him that metal box alive or something like that. And Sam says no.

Now either the promo is cut too weirdly or Lucifer shows up at the cabin where Mary, Dean and, I guess at that point Sam, are and messes things up.

If not, the two stories might not converge. Donna is in episode 11 and the summary says Dean bonds with her and Mary but Sam Smith just said in an interview that Mary and Donna don`t meet. So either Dean has a short scene with Donna on his own or the summary is bubkis. We do know from the promo pics that Donna will deal with Nickifer in her function as Sheriff.

Say Nickifer gets his answers which is that his wife wasn`t killed but possessed maybe? Or evil from the start or an agent of Lucifer. And in episode 12 he tracks her down and tortures her? Apparently the A and B plot in episode 12 don`t converge again, the prophet thing on one side and the Nickifer stuff on the other.

I wish we`d get some promo pics for episode 12 because this prophet thing seems to come out of nowhere. It`s hard to make heads or tails out of it. Could be just Bucklemming not giving a shit to follow the current story but once again only smugly doing what strikes their fancy.

Guess we`ll have more of an answer after episode 11. If Michael is still inside Dean`s mind after that one, he will be IMO stay there till close to the Finale. And his bad place physically in ep 12 will be because of that.

AwesomO4000 · January 23, 2019

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

What other unimaginable choice could Sam make?

It could be: to let Dean kill / isolate / destroy himself to keep Michael contained or talk him out of it and potentially threaten the world by doing so.

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Dean left Michael the first time, the show mostly ignored it, even making Michael comment on it (even though every fan asked repeatedly).

But we / they didn't know what Michael's plans and motivation were back then and Michael didn't have a potential entire army - both things which don't apply now. For me, it's like in season 7 when the leviathan were simmering in the background and Sam and Dean didn't know exactly what they were up to but they were a vague threat vs "holy crap, the leviathans are planning to drug everyone into docile cattle and then eat us for dinner, and they've got the means to mass distribute now." (When they finally found out what the numbers Bobby wrote on Sam's hand meant.) Then they got their shit together and hurried their agenda up.

ILoveReading · January 23, 2019

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The unimaginable choice is in the upcoming episode and what is possibly Nickifer`s wife is in episode 12, though. So, I don`t think those two are related. IMO the choice is gonna be something like Dean asking Sam to seal him that metal box alive or something like that. And Sam says no.

This is a good point. I was mixing up the summaries.

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2019

To me it`s kinda like the MOC. It drove Dean to violence (well, it was more or less supposed to) and culminated in him dying and becoming a demon. And what did they do right after he was immediately de-demoned? Went right back to the MOC driving him to violence as if they were starting from scratch. This might be just like this. I kinda hope in a way. Just with better pay-off.

Lemuria · January 23, 2019

23 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I think so long as Michael is in the freezer he can't see or hear anything else. (Unless its loud enough to be heard through the doors and wall.

Not to mention, his own yelling and throwing things at the door! LOL

Oddly enough, I didn't have any problems with the sneak peek. We have no idea what Dean was doing before the scene started but I don't see his researching anything at this point because he knows the only answer. Or at least, what he thinks is the only answer. Sam presumably is trying to solve the Michael-in-the-DeanCage problem; Dean already knows what to do. He's just trying to come to terms with it.

And I don't understand the criticism that Dean is reaching out to Mary and not the other way around. Sure, Dean probably wants to say goodbye to her, too; she's still his mother. But I don't believe, based on the promo, that he's going there just to see her. It's out of the way, it apparently has a tool shed and it gets him away from Sam and Cas, who might try to stop him.

As Myrelle pointed out above, for one of the only times I can think of, Dean is doing what he's doing solely for what he needs to do, not for Sam or Mary or Cas or Jack, or even Baby. Under different circumstances, I might cheer that.

PAForrest · January 23, 2019

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

Oddly enough, I didn't have any problems with the sneak peek. We have no idea what Dean was doing before the scene started but I don't see his researching anything at this point because he knows the only answer. Or at least, what he thinks is the only answer. Sam presumably is trying to solve the Michael-in-the-DeanCage problem; Dean already knows what to do. He's just trying to come to terms with it.

And I don't understand the criticism that Dean is reaching out to Mary and not the other way around. Sure, Dean probably wants to say goodbye to her, too; she's still his mother. But I don't believe, based on the promo, that he's going there just to see her. It's out of the way, it apparently has a tool shed and it gets him away from Sam and Cas, who might try to stop him.

As Myrelle pointed out above, for one of the only times I can think of, Dean is doing what he's doing solely for what he needs to do, not for Sam or Mary or Cas or Jack, or even Baby. Under different circumstances, I might cheer that.

That's what I'm getting out of the clip too. I mean, obviously it's very believable for Dean to claim he called the Black-Hearted Bitch, because Sam has to be perfectly aware by now that she'd never call to check on Dean. Everybody knows Mary doesn't give a shit, so it wouldn't be believable at all for Dean to claim she called him.

But at least this time I really don't get the impression Dean is going there to see Mary per se - she just happens to be at a remote location away from the bunker that he can use and, again, it's a believable cover story for Dean.

Dean is seemingly working toward whatever solution he read in Billie's book. Whether or not he eventually tells anyone that's what he's doing remains to be seen.

MysteryGuest · January 23, 2019

20 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

That wasn't really my point. Common sense it may be, but that's now how it would have been handled in show or in fandom IMO, going by previous multiple years of experience. We'd get the show telling us, IMO, Dean was wrong for not trusting Sam and not letting Sam do what he wanted, being controlling and bossy and mean. Other characters would agree with this viewpoint about Dean's oppression of poor poor Sam. We'd most likely get an apology from Dean at some point about how he was so wrong for not trusting Sam completely and utterly. And we'd get certain vocal portions of fandom agreeing and writing diatribes about how abusive and controlling Dean is.

As such, I'm quite fine with Sam not putting Dean on a leash(though I'm sure it will all be still be couched in terms in Sam's favor, which IMO it wouldn't be if the shoe was on the other foot)

I can't agree with this. I think over the course of the series, Sam's choices have been shown to be just as wrong as Dean's. Which is why Sam and Cas will let Dean do this stupid thing, and it will probably end up biting them all in the ass. Yes, Dean does apologize when he thinks he's said or done something that he's later regretted, but that's just who he is. Not everyone is an apologizer and it doesn't make them a bad person.

As for fandom and their reactions, I can't help you there, because I couldn't care less what they think. The vast majority of fans are always going to take their favorite's side and say the other brother is wrong. I've read enough completely ridiculous posts by fans on Twitter and Tumblr and I'm sorry, some of those people are whacked. Their opinions mean less than nothing to me.

Wateroflife · January 24, 2019

Man, I'm kinda torn about Mary appearing in tomorrow's episode. On one hand, it might be a chance to mend Dean and Mary's relationship on screen. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the writers are capable of doing that, or if they even realize there is a problem to fix.

Many people (including me) think the writers blew it with Mary's resurrection. But it's so frustrating, cuz I see what they were going for, the execution just sucked. The unexpected relationship difficulties with Dean was actually good, but sleeping with Ketch? Being friggin' brainwashed? Blech. And then they never really fixed it in season 13. Season 14 Mary has been a little better but not much. Did you guys notice that little fond smile she made in the end of 14.2 when Dean came back and the first thing he did was snap at everyone (I wish I could gif on my phone). That moment was so great! It proves it is possible. Unfortunately that moment was probably not scipted.

juppschmitz · January 24, 2019

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

He'll stop Michael if Sam will be his vessel.

Like I said before, Amara 2.0.

ILoveReading · January 24, 2019

6 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Like I said before, Amara 2.0.

He even has the exact same motivation.

catrox14 · January 24, 2019

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It would take too much effort in my opinion to introduce yet another big bad we haven't heard anything about yet or come up with -

They did mention that Abraxis character in relation to Nick. Maybe that will come back.

I'm not convinced that Christian Keys won't be back. The writers haven't mentioned him at all. So either he's dead or maybe he starts missing Michael like Nick misses Lucifer and he offers to be Michael's vessel again. Or maybe he's dying but offers himself to the boys to be the vessel to go into an actual cage of that is what Dean is making.

Alternate unimaginable choice is Sam getting OGMichael out of the cage.

Istill think the boy king thing will be back for Sam before all is said and done.

I wonder about Sam's fate of being killed by a red haired witch. Was it altered as well? Could Billie have been lying about Dean's ending so she gave him her own preferred ending?

Myrelle · January 24, 2019

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Could Billie have been lying about Dean's ending so she gave him her own preferred ending?

I thought of this also, but I hope not.

I like that most forms of Death on this show have always had a bit of a soft spot for Dean and I wouldn't want to lose that.

gonzosgirrl · January 24, 2019

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Could Billie have been lying about Dean's ending so she gave him her own preferred ending?

I think this is the least likely of all scenarios. She has been evasive, but I don't think she's ever outright lied. I'm not even sure she could, as Death.

catrox14 · January 24, 2019

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not even sure she could, as Death.

I've never been clear in Death's role here. When Death was introduced he seemed to have killed that one guy with a brush off his sleeve. Dean refused to let the little girl die which had a consequence but he had the choice. So it seems like Death can circumvent things if the natural order is maintained in some way.

She may consider Chuck's rewrites to be altering the natural order of the possible endings? Maybe the other ending is more like how Dean's choices essentially would decide which death would be his true death. She told him he had more work to do when he offed himself to get to the ghosts in Advanced Thanatology. And leaving it up to him IMO would be in line with OG! Death's approach to Dean and Billie sending him back.

Aeryn13 · January 24, 2019

Quote

I wonder about Sam's fate of being killed by a red haired witch. Was it altered as well? Could Billie have been lying about Dean's ending so she gave him her own preferred ending?

Wasn`t that one of Dean`s previous fates? Sam`s fate apparently is it to kill a red-haired witch, namely Rowena.

Myrelle · January 24, 2019

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've never been clear in Death's role here. When Death was introduced he seemed to have killed that one guy with a brush off his sleeve. Dean refused to let the little girl die which had a consequence but he had the choice. So it seems like Death can circumvent things if the natural order is maintained in some way.

I'm with you in your confusion here, and the bolded part makes it seem as if Death isn't as hands-off as all the other "regular" reapers have been shown to be-which always made OG!Death's caveat that he'd only send MOCDean into outer space if he killed Sam first seem cruel and unnecessary to me-but if you look at it as that being one of Sam's "possible" deaths, then maybe Death felt like he'd just go ahead and give Dean a nudge in his(Death's) direction-especially since the Mark made Dean immortal and he knew and was bitter about never being able to get Dean.

But as I said, that would make OG!Death into a pretty cruel and resentful being, so I guess there IS somewhat of a precedence there for Billie as Death to be that way, too. But she also knows that Death can die and Dean Winchester has already killed Death once, so she would be expectedly leery of him and careful around him as we saw she was in Advanced Thanatology.

So her lying is not out of the realm of possibilities, but that would involve the writers paying some attention to canon and the only one who we've seen even attempt to do do that is Yockey. So it's a maybe, IMO, albeit yes, a long shot-unless they want to give Sam a Death kill, too-which makes it seem like less of a long shot, now that I think of it.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Myrelle

ILoveReading · January 25, 2019

Unless Jensen is permantly leaving the show, its obvious Dean isn't going to spend much time in that box.

So either Michael escapes or they make Dean wimp out. My money is on Dean wimping out.

Aeryn13 · January 25, 2019

It could be in his head, like a vision or nightmare.

ILoveReading · January 25, 2019

I

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

It could be in his head, like a vision or nightmare.

Not with the 300th coming up. Everyone will need to be normal.

Aeryn13 · January 25, 2019

No, I meant being in the box.

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