These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now with her background, I could understand if she specialized in hunting bad angels, like sort of like Lily Sunder, but to the whole wanting to be a hunter thing never made sense to me with respect to Claire.

Maybe because she wants to be FIERCE!

(I am so tired of that word being used as a compliment or aspiration.)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

30 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Maybe because she wants to be FIERCE!

Lol!  Fierce Biker Barbie Hunter?

[catrox14]

Honestly, Dean being hexed by a love spell aggravates me and not just because if the gross aspect of a brother being ruffied ...again ...but the timing of it. So, Sam is now officially depressed in the show and Dean knows it. So Steve Yockey himself pitches,  or was given the task, of writing an episode wherein Dean falls  in love (be it spell or no), is at odds with, and punches Sam, and gives an mportant spell book to the witch, all after it's revealed that Sam is depressed. This implies that Dean is being cruel, albeit unintentionally to a depressed Sam. Are they trying to woobify Sam to the nth degree here it make Dean a kind of bad guy here?  Are they dismissing Sam's depressed state for what seems to be a comedy ep?  I know they need filler eps but this is kind of absurd placement. I'm annoyed.

Edited January 29, 2018 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know they need filler eps but this is kind of absurd placement. I'm annoyed.

They just *had* three or more filler eps with the WS backstory and setup.  They have an enormous amount of plot still stuck in the air.  They're more than halfway through the season.  They need eps of substance for a change, no more filler.  

[AwesomO4000]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Are they dismissing Sam's depressed state for what seems to be a comedy ep? 

This would be my guess.

[ILoveReading]

I hope they treat Sam's depressive state the exact way they treated Dean's.  Interpretation is open to how you see it, of course.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

They just *had* three or more filler eps with the WS backstory and setup.  They have an enormous amount of plot still stuck in the air.  They're more than halfway through the season.  They need eps of substance for a change, no more filler.  

I agree. That's part of the problem with this episode airing now.  They have a LOT of stuff to cover with Cas, Mary, Jack, Lucifer and Michael.

13.13 is Sister Jo intro, and a  BuckLemmning episode which likely means they will shove 5 episodes worth of plot into 42 minutes which requires ALL the LOLCANON and FUQcharacterization you can shake a stick at.

13.16 is the Scooby episode which might actually be mytharc of some kind. They foreshadowed it being possible tied to Jack when he was watching it 13.2 which could be a red herring since Jack as of now is in the AW.  So either he gets back before the Scooby ep or they get there some other way or via someone else . And my official spec is that someone is Sam. After his angst about Kaia being killed because of them, I bet he doesn't want to get anyone else hurt yet they'll need another dreamwalker and DUN DUN DUN, Sam will learn how to dreamwalk himself because he taps into his past psychic visions.

My spec is they were all sitting around watching Scooby Doo when the bunker comes under attack, and their only escape is into ScoobyDoo via Sam's newfound dreamwalking skills and Jack arrives after they are gone.

Or maybe it's nothing so sinister but that Sam was practicing dreamwalking and somehow they end up in Scoobyland.

The Shaving People, Punting Things promo, if f history stands, was snippets of the first 3 to 5 eps after WS which would be 13.10 through 13.15 or 13.16. It showed Jack in the bunker under the red light lockdown shouting for Dean and Sam and then a shot of the bunker on fire. I'm thinking he gets there after the bunker is under attack and TFW is gone.

Edited January 29, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I hope they treat Sam's depressive state the exact way they treated Dean's. 

If that means that Sam would get a few episodes to explore his depression, some backstory or explanation (it would need to be in flashbacks or internal monologue I guess at his point), some kind of catharsis with Mary (and I'd be entirely fine with his catharsis being mainly about Dean, because at least he'd be getting something), an episode for Sam like "Advanced Thanatology", and then some sort of win similar to Castiel coming back... then yeah, I'd take that for Sam any day. But your miles may vary.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If that means that Sam would get a few episodes to explore his depression, some backstory or explanation (it would need to be in flashbacks or internal monologue I guess at his point), some kind of catharsis with Mary (and I'd be entirely fine with his catharsis being mainly about Dean, because at least he'd be getting something), an episode for Sam like "Advanced Thanatology", and then some sort of win similar to Castiel coming back... then yeah, I'd take that for Sam any day. But your miles may vary.

I'd really like a reverse grief counselor ep for Sam. 

 

Since IMO, the writers are very lazy and are just copying and pasting, I feel like the back half is going to be exactly like s8. So I don't think you're going to have to worry about Sam getting a win.  I figure it will be  Sam getting a hero quest while Dean makes dinner.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ILoveReading

[bozodegama]

Oy.  Sam's depression is making me depressed.  Can't they just focus on the problems they have, finding Jack, finding Mary, Killing Michael, freeing Cass, dealing with Lucifer etc?.  There's just too much stuff to fit in this season.  Maybe they can just put him on prozac and have him see a shrink like everyone else and move on. 

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Oy.  Sam's depression is making me depressed.  Can't they just focus on the problems they have, finding Jack, finding Mary, Killing Michael, freeing Cass, dealing with Lucifer etc?.  There's just too much stuff to fit in this season.  Maybe they can just put him on prozac and have him see a shrink like everyone else and move on. 

Nope. Because hunters don't seek counseling. Unless they do a new thing and Sam seeks a Shifterpist.

I've always had the vague sense that Sam was supposed to always have a grief arc at the end of s12 and beginning of s13 over Mary and Eileen, but then the show decided to kill off Castiel which IMO was done simply for the shock and to distract from Crowley's death and once they killed Castiel, after all the bonding Dean and Cas had in s12, Dabb couldn't ignore that Dean would be having major grief as well.

IMO they can't have both Sam and Dean in immense grief at the same time....for reasons. IMO , since Sam  is aligned with Lucifer then he would be aligned with Jack. IMO Dean's grief existed only because they didn't have much else for Dean to do, since Crowley and Cas were dead, and Mary was gone.  They couldn't have him relate to Jack because that's Sam's thing as in Sam relates to monsters.  Dabb wasn't going to give that to Dean no matter what.

And IMO Dean's grief and Sam helping Jack was just background noise for Dabb's real goal which was setting up the spinoff. 

The only episodes that make me think there was some legitimate planning for Dean's grief last season is Advanced Thantology and Tombstone.  That said, I could easily see Sam getting his own version of that because it would make sense that Sam would see Billie himself and be told that he would die in some way and be told to keep fighting.  I do think something like that will happen. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd really like a reverse grief counselor ep for Sam. 

 

Since IMO, the writers are very lazy and are just copying and pasting, I feel like the back half is going to be exactly like s8. So I don't think you're going to have to worry about Sam getting a win.  I figure it will be  Sam getting a hero quest while Dean makes dinner.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But you'll have to wait 12 years for the catharsis (and probably the same number of years for any "backstory" or "explanation" (other than it's all being John's fault) :)  or any kind of win.  As for "Advanced Thanatology"--wasn't that pretty much all the times Sam was told he's special?

Taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread to be safe.

12 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Maybe they can just put him on prozac and have him see a shrink like everyone else and move on. 

I pretty much expect it to be glossed over similar to Sam's anger issues in season 5. Apparently a little body swap adventure, a chat with his younger dad, and beating a repeat bout of addiction were enough to cure that and make Sam hopeful that they'd beat the devil (literally)... Not that I didn't love many of those episodes (not the body swap one), but it was kind of annoying that the writers even brought up these anger issues in an already packed season when there wasn't going to be time to really address them. Except for the body swap episode, none of those episodes after "Sam, Interrupted" was even filler. It was all straight ahead "Charge!" to the end of the season, so there was no way anger issues were going to fit in there. Dean's lack of trust and hope more fit into the main story line and so that was the emotional arc the writers ran with exploring in a more detailed way.

Not that I even understand Sam's depression in the first place really. Not that he's depressed - that makes sense - but more "why now?" when he's had much worse before and bounced back.

[bozodegama]

To be honest, I think "Sam's" depression may be because Padalieki suffers from depression (AKF) and maybe he wanted to explore that on the show and have his character deal with what he (and me and many of us) have to deal with regarding depression.  I have no proof for this, it's just my opinion because of the really random nature of this depression bout.  

[ILoveReading]

From Ruth's facebook like it sounds like her and Dean don't have many, if any at all scenes together.  This is disappointing as I really liked the way the two of them interacted in Regarding Dean.

Edited January 30, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From Ruth's facebook like it sounds like her and Dean don't have many, if any at all scenes together.  This is disappointing as I really liked the way the two of them interacted in Regarding Dean.

Dean is busy getting ruffied. Heh, it would be amusing to me as a lowkey Samwena shipper laugh if he sleeps with her instead of the witch sister

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is busy getting ruffied. Heh, it would be amusing to me as a lowkey Samwena shipper laugh if he sleeps with her instead of the witch sister

I would also be amused. :)

Seriously though, the blurb said Rowena is a powerful ally to them in the episode. Does that mean Sam contacts her for help to get a goofy-acting Dean out from under a spell? If so, did we not just do that? JFC.

[Wayward Son]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would also be amused. :)

Seriously though, the blurb said Rowena is a powerful ally to them in the episode. Does that mean Sam contacts her for help to get a goofy-acting Dean out from under a spell? If so, did we not just do that? JFC.

Do the boys know Rowena is alive? I thought they didn’t and assumed she would be the one to reach them out to them somehow. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Do the boys know Rowena is alive? I thought they didn’t and assumed she would be the one to reach them out to them somehow. 

They think she's dead. There is a scene in the promo from SPPT that has her in a stilettos boots picking up a hex bag next to a guy on the ground and I don't know if that is Dean or not.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

They think she's dead. There is a scene in the promo from SPPT that has her in a stilettos boots picking up a hex bag next to a guy on the ground and I don't know if that is Dean or not.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought they believed she was dead, but @gonzosgirrl‘s query about whether Sam would contact her for help or not had me worried there was something I’d missed.

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Thanks for clarifying. I thought they believed she was dead, but @gonzosgirrl‘s query about whether Sam would contact her for help or not had me worried there was something I’d missed.

I know. I was just explaining what is known to the audience at this point. That doesn't preclude the show from having Rowena show up at the very beginning of the ep, alive and well and conveniently ready to help Sam. 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They think she's dead. There is a scene in the promo from SPPT that has her in a stilettos boots picking up a hex bag next to a guy on the ground and I don't know if that is Dean or not.

So she helps them, unasked and unbeknownst to them? That seems... generous of her. LOL!

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So she helps them, unasked and unbeknownst to them? That seems... generous of her. LOL!

Well it could be, as others have suggested, she gives the appearance of being an ally but actually orchasterated the whole scenario for her own ends. The blurb is unlikely to give it away if the writers intended her treachery to be seen as a big twist :)

Edited January 30, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So she helps them, unasked and unbeknownst to them? That seems... generous of her. LOL!

Oh I'm not saying it's for altruistic reasons. I'm just saying she might show up and offer help. I'm sure that help will have a price. Either that or she is the reason Dean gets hexed by the other witch. Using them to get him to give up the Grimoire.

I'm just saying Rowena has some kind of ploy going on and she'll use Sam to do it.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

After this sneak peek, I also have a bad feeling about this one.  More mopey Sam, and we;re back to Dean can barely read and Sam needs to correct him. 

I refuse to believe that Steve Yockey actually wrote this episode. I don't believe it. LOL  Or he's been hexed himself.  That was terrible!

Why would Sam be such an asshole to Dean because Dean doesn't read French? Okay Sam did you think Dean knows French? Even the most asshole Sam ever IMO would not give Dean shit for not knowing French. 

Also, more Strawman writing here.

 Sam knows that they can find a dreamwalker to help.  Why is that not an option?
Plot plot plot. Dean suddenly can't pick up a phone and call Cas himself just to keep the stupidity of Casmodeus from being outed by Dean? Cause Dean has always pinged on Cas being not Cas. Sure, the guy that was so happy to have Cas back that they went on a cowboy adventure together is not calling Cas to tell him about Jack.  COME ON SHOW.  We are not stupid.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I refuse to believe that Steve Yockey actually wrote this episode. I don't believe it. LOL  Or he's been hexed himself.  That was terrible!

Why would Sam be such an asshole to Dean because Dean doesn't read French? Okay Sam did you think Dean knows French? Even the most asshole Sam ever IMO would not give Dean shit for not knowing French. 

Also, more Strawman writing here.

 Sam knows that they can find a dreamwalker to help.  Why is that not an option?
Plot plot plot. Dean suddenly can't pick up a phone and call Cas himself just to keep the stupidity of Casmodeus from being outed by Dean? Cause Dean has always pinged on Cas being not Cas. Sure, the guy that was so happy to have Cas back that they went on a cowboy adventure together is not calling Cas to tell him about Jack.  COME ON SHOW.  We are not stupid.

I've found Sam always looks down on Dean in matters of academics.  That's not new.

But its like the writers can't remember that Dean knows how to research.   I said this was going going to be a repeat of s8 and this just further confirms that feeling, especially with Sam dismissing Dean with "go get beer."

Since I have a hard time believing Perez wrote last week, I wonder if they got their script covers mixed up. 

But then I remember Yockey was the one who wrote that line with Dean asking Sam to fix the colt.

Edited February 1, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Not enamored with the clip at all. Not reading French isn`t a big deal but making a dumb-joke out of it implies something else. Of course beer-run, couldn`t have been something equally valuable as research. Whatever. 

I feel a lot of clownery coming on and not in a good way but in the demeaning slapstick way.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Wasn't Yockey the one who wrote Dean asking Sam to fix the colt.

I think you're right now that I think about. Maybe he's getting an assist from Davy Perez on some of this stuff. Or he's being given bullet points from Dabb and Singer since he gave Dean such a fair shake in Lily Sunder, Asa Fox, Advanced Thanatology. 

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam knows that they can find a dreamwalker to help.  Why is that not an option?

Well, they need more than just a dreamwalker. It would be pointless to find another dreamwalker if they don't have Jack to focus and open the door. It was the combined power of Jack and Kaia that opened that rift, not just Kaia.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, they need more than just a dreamwalker. It would be pointless to find another dreamwalker if they don't have Jack to focus and open the door. It was the combined power of Jack and Kaia that opened that rift, not just Kaia.

echnically, you're correct, but that's not what the scene is implying IMO. It's making it seem like there are no other options than Jack. Heck, they could theoretically find another nephelim and see if they have that kind of power.  My point, and it's a problem this show has always had, is that they eliminate in conversation, other viable options for the sake of plot. I dislike that kind of writing.

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't know if this is just Bitter/Unpopular Opinion, but since there is talk of episodes past and spec of the future, I'll put it here just in case. This season has far. Too. MANY! storylines. Is it about Jack? Is it about Asmodeus? Is it about Lucifer? Mary? Michael? Rowena? The Empty/Empty Entity/Billie? The Wayward Whatevers? Heaven forbid, is it about Dean and/or Sam? There are loose threads that could possibly tie them all together, but we are half way through the season now and basically nothing has moved forward. It's a hot, jumbled mess that doesn't seem to have any direction or focus.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know if this is just Bitter/Unpopular Opinion, but since there is talk of episodes past and spec of the future, I'll put it here just in case. This season has far. Too. MANY! storylines. Is it about Jack? Is it about Asmodeus? Is it about Lucifer? Mary? Michael? Rowena? The Empty/Empty Entity/Billie? The Wayward Whatevers? Heaven forbid, is it about Dean and/or Sam? There are loose threads that could possibly tie them all together, but we are half way through the season now and basically nothing has moved forward. It's a hot, jumbled mess that doesn't seem to have any direction or focus.

It could be they are dragging this out for an end at 300 episodes.

Of course we have the Sister Jo up coming up written by the Horrible Duo and they shove 15 plots into one episode, so I fully expect that one to sacrifice all the continuity, all the characterization to move the plot forward.

Somehow Dean and Sam find out Lucifer is alive and out of the AU.  Lucifer has the knowledge that AU Kevin can make rifts. He will probably use that knowledge to barter a deal that Dean, Sam and Cas help him get to the AU to save Jack and Mary.  Sister Jo must be the person that helps heal him. Maybe she ups his power so he can open a rfit.  Or maybe that's where Donatello comes in.  Lucifer tries to get him to open a rift since Kevin could do, maybe Donatello can do it as well.  I could see them tying Sister Jo to Rowena possibly since she's now tied to Lucifer.

Maybe it will end up being Ketch working with Asmodeus to find Cas and Lucifer. Also, where is Asmodeus in this deal with LUcifer and Cas getting out so easily from his lair. That seems unlikely to me.  So weird.

[Myrelle]

41 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know if this is just Bitter/Unpopular Opinion, but since there is talk of episodes past and spec of the future, I'll put it here just in case. This season has far. Too. MANY! storylines. Is it about Jack? Is it about Asmodeus? Is it about Lucifer? Mary? Michael? Rowena? The Empty/Empty Entity/Billie? The Wayward Whatevers? Heaven forbid, is it about Dean and/or Sam? There are loose threads that could possibly tie them all together, but we are half way through the season now and basically nothing has moved forward. It's a hot, jumbled mess that doesn't seem to have any direction or focus.

Yeah, IDK and maybe I'm just being paranoid, but it really feels like this season is going the way that 8 and 12 went to me-downhill fast after the winter hiatus.

Maybe bringing in Danneel will make the Lucifer nonsense more palatable, but I'm not counting on it. I mean, if they're bringing her in/on just to make Dean or even both brothers side characters in her storyline, that's just another one that he/they will be sidelined in, and thanks, but no thanks to that.

The Michael stuff is what I'm waiting on most, but I'm also dreading it because of Dabb and what he's done with pretty much everything he's touched since taking the reins.

[catrox14]

So, Dean did talk to Cas but he didn't figure out it wasn't Cas.  NOPE NOPE NOPE. Dean would have figured it out. I call complete bullshit on this. Make sure the bond isn't quite as bondy as the grieving, distraught Dean who was so depressed over his lost BF and was so happy to have him back, can't figure out that Cas wasn't Cas when he ALWAYS pings that shit is wrong with Cas? SCREW YOU Buck Lemming. Gods that pisses me off.

 

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Poor Dean.  He just looks so tired and done with it all.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, Dean did talk to Cas but he didn't figure out it wasn't Cas.  NOPE NOPE NOPE. Dean would have figured it out. I call complete bullshit on this. Make sure the bond isn't quite as bondy as the grieving, distraught Dean who was so depressed over his lost BF and was so happy to have him back, can't figure out that Cas wasn't Cas when he ALWAYS pings that shit is wrong with Cas? SCREW YOU Buck Lemming. Gods that pisses me off.

 

This is my first thought too.  Dean who supposedly is having trouble putting one foot in front of the other because he lost Cas, becomes so casual about him being out of touch for so long, and he doesn't realize something's wrong?  He did it last year.

I appreciate Jensen trying to show that Dean is still at the end and one more thing is going to send him over.  It's too bad the writing isn't supporting this.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean's had a lot on his mind lately.  They've been worrying about Mary, looking for Jack, and now he's added the burden of helping Sam overcome his bout of depression.  I can fully understand why he might not "ping" on anything being wrong with Cas.  He was calling both Sam and Dean and just briefly checking in with status updates.  Not to mention that Cas is always weird on the phone.  I personally don't find it farfetched at all that he didn't realize it wasn't Cas.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean's had a lot on his mind lately.  They've been worrying about Mary, looking for Jack, and now he's added the burden of helping Sam overcome his bout of depression.  I can fully understand why he might not "ping" on anything being wrong with Cas.  He was calling both Sam and Dean and just briefly checking in with status updates.  Not to mention that Cas is always weird on the phone.  I personally don't find it farfetched at all that he didn't realize it wasn't Cas.

Dean hasn't really been all that concerned with Mary or Jack.  He didn't give her a second thought after he was ready to permanently accept they lived in Jurassic Park after barely two days, and there was nothing to indicate these couple of episodes that Mary has been on his mind at all.

Jensen is trying but the writing isn't helping.  Unfornately, the writers don't seem to be able to deal with more than one issue at a time, which is why all we're getting is Sam moping.

Last season, Dean was able to tell something was off with Cas just from one brief conversion.  I agree with @catrox14 and call BS

Edited February 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[bozodegama]

What i really dont understand is if that is the Empty Cass, why does he care what’s happening on Earth.  Like, what’s his motive for doing all that he’s doing.  I thought the guy just wanted to sleep.  Why is helping the Winchester’s, stabbing Lucifer, looking for Jack?  It makes no sense to me.  Maybe someone else knows?

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

What i really dont understand is if that is the Empty Cass, why does he care what’s happening on Earth.  Like, what’s his motive for doing all that he’s doing.  I thought the guy just wanted to sleep.  Why is helping the Winchester’s, stabbing Lucifer, looking for Jack?  It makes no sense to me.  Maybe someone else knows?

I dont think that is The Empty Cas.  I think its just regular Cas. 

The Empty Keeper just wanted to sleep, so there is no motivation for him to go to Earth in place of Cas.

[MysteryGuest]

I think it's just regular Cas at this point.  And even though they didn't specifically have Dean say that he was still worried about Mary, I have no doubt that he absolutely is.  But they haven't got a fricking clue how to get to her, so he's focusing on what he can do, which is get Sam over the hump so they can find a solution together.  Obviously, we all interpret these things differently.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I dont think that is The Empty Cas.  I think its just regular Cas. 

The Empty Keeper just wanted to sleep, so there is no motivation for him to go to Earth in place of Cas.

This is way out of left field, but if Jack could wake up Cas whose to say he can't wake up everyone else in the Empty as well. Maybe he's scared that an open rift will do more to wake up the rest of the Empty and he doesn't want that to happen?

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean's had a lot on his mind lately.  They've been worrying about Mary, looking for Jack, and now he's added the burden of helping Sam overcome his bout of depression.  I can fully understand why he might not "ping" on anything being wrong with Cas.  He was calling both Sam and Dean and just briefly checking in with status updates.  Not to mention that Cas is always weird on the phone.  I personally don't find it farfetched at all that he didn't realize it wasn't Cas.

Dean was in such heavy grief over Castiel , and I guess Mary but the reality is that his grief was almost exclusively centered around Cas, that he didn't care if he came back from the dead. 

And in that episode he got Cas back and he perked right back up and was happy to around him and dress up like cowboys LOL.

There seems to be a time jump here as well because it was mere days between Jack leaving and Cas getting captured and then the WS stuff. In WS, Doug said, "So you were at the family reunion a couple of weeks ago" so that's maybe 2 3 weeks tops that Cas was gone and Dean was distracted.

The stupidity of them not cluing in Castiel when Jack was missing when Cas is out looking for Jack and THEY KNOW WHERE HE IS is just too much. There is no reason to not tell him other than plot contrivance.

Sam has been in much worse shape than this and Dean is just now learning that Sam is on the downturn. That doesn't account at all for the gap that had Cas apparently only checking in with Sam and then suddenly now he talks to Dean only to make it that Dean doesn't figure it out.  NOPE that's crap writing that disregards characterization.

Sam being depressed wouldn't throw Dean off his years-long- completely- being- in- tune -with- shit -being- up- with -Castiel, that he would 100% know that Cas wasn't Cas. There is no good or bad way then can sell to me that Dean wouldn't have figured out it was Cas. No way. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Dean was in such heavy grief over Castiel , and I guess Mary but the reality is that his grief was almost exclusively centered around Cas, that he didn't care if he came back from the dead. 

I guess this is where we differ.  Yes, Cas is a dear friend and ally, and a brother in his mind, but I have to think that Mary's being trapped in the AU was an equal part of his grief.  But a dead Cas was right there in front of him, so it would be hard not to focus all of his grief on something tangible.  I personally think this magical bond between Cas and Dean gets exaggerated sometimes.  And that should probably go in the Unpopular Opinions thread.

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess this is where we differ.  Yes, Cas is a dear friend and ally, and a brother in his mind, but I have to think that Mary's being trapped in the AU was an equal part of his grief.  But a dead Cas was right there in front of him, so it would be hard not to focus all of his grief on something tangible.  I personally think this magical bond between Cas and Dean gets exaggerated sometimes.  And that should probably go in the Unpopular Opinions thread.

Dean didn't think his mom was trapped until a couple of weeks ago.  He believed she was dead, and the writing supported the notion that losing Cas was what effected Dean the most.

When Miriam read Dean's mind, the first thought on his mind was 'bring Cas back."  Not, mom or Crowley, but Cas.

Dean only found out that Mary was alive and trapped a couple weeks ago.  He saw she was being tortured which may have triggered flashbacks to his own hell.  Dean became so weighted down with guilt that he help a gun to the head of a traumatized teenager.

IMO, this isn't stuff you just handwave, with 'well, he's probably feeling it."  I didn't like the scene with Kaia, but it happened on screen.  If the writers are going to go there they need to follow up on it.

I get Dean's trying to be there for Sam, but his his own issues seemed to be far from resolved, and should be given the focus. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

personally think this magical bond between Cas and Dean gets exaggerated sometimes.  

I get that you don't like Destiel but I'm not talking about Destiel.  

It's an established nearly 10 year long close brothers/best friends (and for some it's romantic but that's not what I'm talking about here), that was so important to Dean that he stayed an entire year looking for Castiel in Purgatory, when he had a way out. It was been shown time and again that Dean knows when something isn't right with Cas. It's canon.

When Dean's grief was shown, his prayer and his goodbyes, Cas was always mentioned first. It was "Bring him back. Bring back Cas, Mom, all of them..even Crowley". "Goodbye, Cas, Goodbye Kelly, Goodbye Crowley, Goodbye Mom". When he screamed at Sam in 13.3 it was about how Jack got Cas killed and that he can't forget about that. Whether that was true or not, that is what Dean thought. 

I'm not exaggerating anything, I'm not misreading how Dean's grief was centered around Cas, more than Mary or Crowley.

[AwesomO4000]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's an established nearly 10 year long close brothers/best friends (and for some it's romantic but that's not what I'm talking about here), that was so important to Dean that he stayed an entire year looking for Castiel in Purgatory, when he had a way out. It was been shown time and again that Dean knows when something isn't right with Cas. It's canon.

But purgatory was also an example of Dean either missing or not wanting to know something was up with Cas. In all the time they were making their way to the extraction point, Dean didn't ping on the fact that Castiel wasn't ready to go back and/or that Castiel was not feeling quite right or had too much guilt. After Dean got out of purgatory, Dean even deflected and made up a story in his head so that it would be his own fault rather than Castiel having not been in an emotionally right place. Dean didn't want to see that something had been wrong with Cas and then didn't want to admit it even when it was right in front of his face.

So under normal circumstances Dean can usually tell that something is wrong with Castiel, but when he gets Castiel back after a long absence - like he did in purgatory - maybe Dean doesn't want to look that gift horse in the mouth. He just wants to be happy that he has Castiel back, and that might mean not picking up on some things that he might normally pick up on. And as with the purgatory situation, Dean sometimes does denial well. He also did denial in season 6 when he didn't want Castiel to be plotting something even though Sam picked up on it. And again it was after not having had Castiel around for a while, so maybe just was glad to have him back and didn't want to look at it too closely and/or wanted to deny what his instinct was telling him. So maybe even if on some level Dean knows when something is wrong with Castiel, sometimes it's more complicated than that. Maybe sometimes there can be denial that gets in the way, and I could see that being the case here. Dean was in a bad place before he got Castiel back, so I could see him being willfully ignorant that something might be wrong with Castiel, because he wouldn't want to admit that something might be wrong with him after getting him back. And I think that there's precedence with both the season 6 and the purgatory situations.

Edited February 8, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But purgatory was also an example of Dean either missing or not wanting to know something was up with Cas. In all the time they were making their way to the extraction point, Dean didn't ping on the fact that Castiel wasn't ready to go back and/or that Castiel was not feeling quite right or had too much guilt. After Dean got out of purgatory, Dean even deflected and made up a story in his head so that it would be his own fault rather than Castiel having not been in an emotionally right place. Dean didn't want to see that something had been wrong with Cas and then didn't want to admit it even when it was right in front of his face

Dean had not seen Cas in a year. A literal year. He was fighting for his life everyday of that year to find Cas.  And he was not seeing that Cas wasn't going with him because Cas didn't make it clear. Once he was back on Earth, he had PTSD, was having visions of Castiel who he believed was dead because he couldn't get him back. I don't see that as really being an equivalent situation here since Dean has been around Cas more or less consistently for the better part of like 3 years.  Sure they are separated but it's not a year of no contact like it was in Purgatory, which may have thrown of Dean's CasDar not to mention that Dean was just damn happy that Cas was alive.  Or Dean not understanding what was going on with Cas in s6 was because Cas was a pretty damn good liar and Dean could not fathom that his best friend would have betrayed him. Being in denial about Castiel doesn't mean Dean isn't in tune with him most of the rest of the time.

Just a few months earlier, Dean pinged right away that something was weird with Castiel when he went off to Heaven via a phone call. Or when he said he looked into Cas' face and did not recognize the guy staring back. It's not been a year in the show that Cas left them in the park. It's been a few months.

Dean not questioning that Cas is Cas is certainly a plot point ready to be filled by Dean learning that Cas isn't Cas. I've stated my belief that the other shoe is set up to drop that Dean not testing Cas will bite him in the ass. And will call shenanigans when it happens, even though it's fully set up to be that way.

Sorry I just don't see that these are really comparable situations at all. Different situations, different contexts.

[AwesomO4000]

I agree that they are different situations. My main point connecting them was that Dean was happy to have Castiel back and might not want to question that too closely. Even though the time is less this time than purgatory and seasons 6, it could be argued that the trauma here was more, because Dean saw Castiel dead this time. In my opinion, this time Dean might have even more emotional reason to be just grateful that Castiel is back and want to emotionally overlook / deny that Castiel isn't quite right, because if something is off / he isn't Castiel / etc. then Dean might have to live through Castiel being dead and/or gone all over again.

I agree the time is different, and the situations are different, but for me Dean's reason for wanting to maybe deny or ignore that something might be off about Cas isn't necessarily so different.

However, I also understand that your opinion may vary.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree that they are different situations. My main point connecting them was that Dean was happy to have Castiel back and might not want to question that too closely. Even though the time is less this time than purgatory and seasons 6, it could be argued that the trauma here was more, because Dean saw Castiel dead this time. In my opinion, this time Dean might have even more emotional reason to be just grateful that Castiel is back and want to emotionally overlook / deny that Castiel isn't quite right, because if something is off / he isn't Castiel / etc. then Dean might have to live through Castiel being dead and/or gone all over again.

I agree the time is different, and the situations are different, but for me Dean's reason for wanting to maybe deny or ignore that something might be off about Cas isn't necessarily so different.

However, I also understand that your opinion may vary.

I can see what you are saying. I will accept this as a headcanon for why Dean didn't ping that Cas wasn't Cas.  :)

[bozodegama]

So if that's regular Cass, what's with all his weird smiling?  I know he's a weird, dorky guy but he usually doesn't smile that much.  Doesn't seem like our Cass.  I don't know, maybe it is.  But something seems off with Cass.  Just my  opinion.

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

So if that's regular Cass, what's with all his weird smiling?  I know he's a weird, dorky guy but he usually doesn't smile that much.  Doesn't seem like our Cass.  I don't know, maybe it is.  But something seems off with Cass.  Just my  opinion.

I'd say that its just an inconsistency in the writing.   One week Dean hold a gun to a teenagers head because he's so desperate to get to their mom, the next week he's totally "oh well, its been two days, we live in monster land.  Mom Who?"

I think Cas's little smirk was just because he was pleased with himself.  He was trying to bait Lucifer and it was working.