A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Mari]

I honestly think the ratings fall is pretty simple.  

So far, this season is grim, boring, and jumbled.  How many truly interesting, memorable moments have happened?  It's forgettable.  

[Mathius]

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I really doubt that the Home Office was always the Lost Boys. That seemed to be a pretty abrupt shift in the season 2 finale when they decided to go to Neverland. Earlier in the season, when we were getting Gregor/Owen's arrival in town and Tamara's backstory with August, there was absolutely no indication whatsoever that this was what was going on. It seemed like an awfully complicated scheme with way too many moving parts for Pan to find Henry and get him to Neverland. They just sort of waved their hands in the 2 finale and 3 premiere and said, "Uh, yeah, the Home Office was really Pan! Moving on ..."

Let me revise my statement: the Home Office was always the Lost Boys when it was actually called "the Home Office".  That specific name first popped up in 2x21, the penultimate episode which featured the Baelfire with the Darlings flashback and introduction to the Neverland stuff, and the very name "Home Office" - which is a part of the British government dealing with threats from undocumented immigrants - is a clue to John and Micheal Darling's involvement in the whole operation.  Before that, yeah, it's obvious that the anti-magic movement Greg and Tamara were part of was designed completely separately from Peter Pan.  In 2x21 and 2x22, they put them together because they didn't know what else to do with them.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Let me revise my statement: the Home Office was always the Lost Boys when it was actually called "the Home Office".  That specific name first popped up in 2x21, the penultimate episode which featured the Baelfire with the Darlings flashback and introduction to the Neverland stuff, and the very name "Home Office" - which is a part of the British government dealing with threats from undocumented immigrants - is a clue to John and Micheal Darling's involvement in the whole operation.

Oh, I'd forgotten that the name came up so late, probably because it just doesn't seem to fit with Pan, who was originally from the Enchanted Forest world rather than from Victorian England or any other place that had the concept of an "office" at all. We didn't meet John and Michael until season 3, so it didn't click until then that maybe they were the ones who came up with that scheme for recruiting others, which makes more sense. I can even buy that the "let's destroy all magic" thing might have been their sideline rather than something that came explicitly from Pan, since they really had suffered due to Pan. I spent a lot of time in cognitive dissonance and total disbelief that this had actually been planned all along until then. It's still a shame that they wasted the plot line about people who'd been harmed by magic and wanted it out of their world, and then they really put a stake through its heart with Henry's little jaunt at the end of season 5. Now we can never honestly address the downside of magic and whether it's a good or bad thing to have in our world.

1 hour ago, Mari said:

So far, this season is grim, boring, and jumbled.

Yeah, and grim and boring are a deadly combination. Grim can be good if it keeps you on the edge of your seat, wondering what will happen next, and seeing a well-done plot come together, with enough glimpses of hope to string audiences along. But grim and boring just makes you want to give up entirely.

[KingOfHearts]

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Yeah, and grim and boring are a deadly combination. Grim can be good if it keeps you on the edge of your seat, wondering what will happen next, and seeing a well-done plot come together, with enough glimpses of hope to string audiences along. But grim and boring just makes you want to give up entirely.

Grim and boring is like being at a funeral for someone you didn't even know.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Grim and boring is like being at a funeral for someone you didn't even know.

Nah, I do that all the time because I sing for a lot of funerals of people I didn't know, and it can be rather interesting to learn about these people. I even sometimes get all emotionally involved because I'm sad that I didn't meet these people. It's far more invested than I've been in this season so far. That's a tagline for you: Less emotionally involving and less fun than being at a funeral for someone you never met.

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Nah, I do that all the time because I sing for a lot of funerals of people I didn't know, and it can be rather interesting to learn about these people. I even sometimes get all emotionally involved because I'm sad that I didn't meet these people. It's far more invested than I've been in this season so far. That's a tagline for you: Less emotionally involving and less fun than being at a funeral for someone you never met.

How about a funeral for an evil dictator like Regina? Only, you're a peasant, and she has an equally tyrannical successor, so you can't be happy.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

How about a funeral for an evil dictator like Regina?

They tend not to have memorial services in Methodist churches. And basically, at just about all funerals, the people talk about the deceased the way A&E write for Regina, so if you didn't know the person directly, you're going to get the impression that they were wonderful.

I don't mind so much bad things happening in fiction. That's what drama is all about. Where it gets really grim is when it's ultra-personal the way it's been for Emma for the past two seasons. She's had personal doom hanging over her for a very long time. The Dark Swan arc wasn't about saving the town. She was the only one who was really at risk until the very end. The story question of the arc was "will they save Emma?" Then the story question of her part of 5B was "will Emma save Hook?" Now there's really not any greater threat. It's mostly just "is Emma really doomed?" and "will the curse be broken on the Charmings?" I think it's that ultra-personal thing, where only one or two people are at risk and life goes on for everyone else, that makes things feel so grim. It's one thing if they have to race against time to save the town, and maybe the main characters are even more in danger because they're on the front lines. It's something else entirely when it's just Emma who's doomed if they can't find a way to save her. As much as they talk about Regina getting the short end of the stick, she doesn't have that little black rain cloud hanging over her head non-stop the way Emma does.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Not that I care about Lily, but I always roll my eyes when I see another dropped plot from A&E. If the Dragon isn't the father, why the heck would he mention he got separated from his daughter? That was such a specific thing. At the very least it could have gently answered the question without taking up time to do Lily's story. Why deny it altogether? There's no point in that. If S6 is the last season, just throw a bone to the three people out there wanting a conclusion.

What is weird is that they STILL insist on throwing out these fishing lures for minor characters like The Dragon, that he has a daughter out there.  But a viewer who would even care would be a viewer who wonders what happened to The Dragon and if he's still behind the Mirror and wondering why Regina and Emma hasn't never mentioned him since!  

Anyone who actually remembers the Black Fairy would also remember Blue defeated her and got the Wand.  Yet now, it's all about her being Rumple's mommy, and Blue knows nothing about her origins and gets beaten off-screen?  That doesn't reward loyal viewers.

They can't have it both ways.  You can't treat side characters like disposable trash and yet make viewers interested in a potential bigger story that you will get back to.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The irony is that A&E were supposedly the writers on Lost who wanted to give the secondary characters bigger stories. Now Granny gets a line about food every four episodes.

Edited December 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The irony is that A&E were supposedly the writers on Lost who wanted to give the secondary characters bigger stories. Now Granny gets a line about food every four episodes.

The difference might be on "Lost", they were assigned to give the secondary characters a story, maybe a story that the group together brainstormed.  As showrunners, they basically go with Grumpy, Granny, Blue, etc. only get to be glorified extras, even if they would actually FIT into the storyline (eg. Blue with Black Fairy; Granny with Ruby Slippers, etc.)

[Shanna Marie]

Back to the season comparisons, I've realized that although I might not have considered 2A a favorite, it is my most rewatched part of the series, other than the season 3 finale. It may not be the best, but it's kind of the most fun. The writing in season one is probably better, but I find it rather bleak and oppressive to watch -- all the talk about the show "getting" dark, but it was rather dark to start with. Part of that may be my personal issues. I've always had trouble with "institutional injustice" stories, in which it's the authorities oppressing the heroine, and she has nowhere to turn. The deck was so solidly stacked against Emma, with Regina holding all the cards and changing the game at will, that it was really hard for me to watch. I only got through that season in the first place because I knew Regina was ultimately going to get her comeuppance, and it would be glorious. Now it's hard to watch while knowing that there will be no real comeuppance. I find that I enjoy watching the flashback parts, but I can't watch most of the present-day stories. The last time I tried to do a rewatch, I had to bail on season one.

But 2A contains a lot of the stuff I like about the series. I was disappointed the first time through because it wasn't what I wanted it to be, but I appreciate it more now. It was really the last time we saw full-on badass Snow. She was on her home turf and had things under control, and it was fun seeing Emma's reaction to the change in her from the meek Mary Margaret. Although they made Emma take the Idiot Ball a few times, it was still fun seeing her way out of her comfort zone. When Hook showed up, it ramped up the energy levels to about a 15 on a scale of 1 to 10. The good guys had a goal, and they made progress toward that goal rather than spinning their wheels until the last second. Back in Storybrooke, Regina was at her most likeable. She was showing signs of contrition and self awareness. Henry loved her but didn't worship her or apologize for her. David's one of the better characters to put against her because he's willing to call her out, and she's at her best when Emma and Snow are very far away. Henry was still a cute kid and not that obnoxious. He was age-appropriate. It also helped that they were drawing upon their own situation for conflict. Cora had already been introduced as a threat and had an established relationship with Snow. In Storybrooke, all their issues came from within -- George, FrankenDaniel, the We Are Both problem. They didn't need to throw in a random villain to pop into town.

So, if I want to watch the show being the closest to what I want it to be and the closest it comes to fulfilling the potential I see in it, 2A is what I watch.

[Mathius]

2A was also THE most balanced when it came to the ensemble cast, with everyone getting close to equal screentime and focus.  While S1 and 3A were also fairly balanced, Storybrooke David Nolan was a non-entity for the most part while Rumple was kept more distant and enigmatic in the former, while Neal and Belle were mostly regulated to props to Rumple's story in the latter.  In 2A, everyone was on point, no character took over the show.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

In general, S1 tends to get romanticized. I don't particularly enjoy rewatching it unless I want to remember the small town stories or the beauty of the false personalities. It's bleak, slow in the middle, and gets a little too - dare I say it - realistic. It's difficult to watch the custody battle between Regina and Emma because the whole situation was as hopeless as some of the ones we face in real life. Seeing Regina win over and over only because the board was tilted in her favor gets tedious. Like some of the later arcs, the heroes didn't get to do anything until the final episode or two. Emma got to give some character happy endings, but the real journey was in her belief. (Which went from 0 to 5 back to 0 and then 10.) There are aspects of the season I love, but the lengthiness of 22 episodes really shows. Maybe I've gotten too used to the fast-paced jumping around.

Edited December 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's bleak, slow in the middle, and gets a little too - dare I say it - realistic.

I would not call it bleak by any means.  Bleak is when there are next to no uplifting moments, no personal triumphs, no hope spots.  The actual custody battle between Emma and Regina over Henry only happened in the last few episodes following the Mary Margaret frame-up, and throughout the course of the season we got to have moments where the good characters got to be happy, and triumph, and be allowed to realistically have hope.

Also, your mileage may vary - the realistic element is what attracted many in the first place, it was a nice compliment to the flashback's fantasy.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Given how horrible the winter finale was, I thought I would share my list for the top worst episodes of the series. These numbers aren't concrete, so I may waver a little. I don't count on anyone agreeing with it, lol. These are just my personal worst and not based on their writing quality alone.

#10 - Dreamcatcher
#9 - Ruby Slippers
#7 - Heroes and Villains
#6 - Bleeding Through
#5 - Breaking Glass
#4 - The Savior
#3 - Wish You Were Here
#2 - The Cricket Game
#1 - Only You/An Untold Story

Runners Up: Selfless, Brave and True, Street Rats, The Bear and the Bow, Unforgiven, Enter the Dragon, The Tower, and a long list of others...

Edited December 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

This is really tough... there are a variety of bad episodes.  The lame boring ones, the ret-con insulting ones, the grating ones, etc.  6A was the worst arc for me, and all the episodes are pretty bad, but I can't pick just one for the list.

#1 An Untold Story (by far... I think this is when the show officially jumped the shark even though it flopped like crazy so many times before)
#2 The Bear and the Bow - beyond grating... the closest I've come to throwing a rock at the TV
#3 The Cricket Game - let the poor Regina saga begin
#4 Bleeding Through - the destruction of Snow
#5 Breaking Glass - the destruction of Emma
---
Rounding out the Top 10 (in no particular order)
- Welcome to Storybrooke - the destruction of Henry
- Ruby Slippers - how not to write an episode
- Heart of Gold - how monologues by Rumple and Zelena can kill you
- Nasty Habits - a prime example of lost potential
- Changelings or The Savior - representing for pretty much all of 6A

Edited December 9, 2016 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

For me, bottom 5 would be:

1. Selfless Brave and True (I will never rewatch this episode)
2. Only You/An Untold Story (the LoUS does all the heavy lifting in keeping this out of worst place. I miss Hyde)
3. Wish You Were Here (may move up depending on how the second episode in wish world is resolved)
4. The Cricket Game (the beginning of the Regina downward spiral. I actually enjoyed her 2A arc)
5. The Bear King (for both extremely bad timing and lack of main characters. It should never have been aired directly after Birth)

Now the episodes that weren't bad on the whole but parts of them were awful:

• For most offensive flashback: The Evil Queen
• Second most offensive flashback: Bleeding Through
• For worst present day "A" plot: I'll Be Your Mirror
• Runner up: The Bear and the Bow
• Worst arc resolution:  Kansas

Edited December 9, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[KingOfHearts]

I am so happy to see a general hatred for The Cricket Game. *gets teary eyed*

There are two piles for my worst episodes, and some of them are in both. There's the ones that are just poorly written, and there's the others I just found offensive. Some of the boring centrics I can tolerate, but when they center around characters I despise, I have no mercy.

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#1 An Untold Story (by far... I think this is when the show officially jumped the shark even though it flopped like crazy so many times before)

This was the episode where I knew the writers had officially run out of ideas.

Edited December 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

This was the episode where I knew the writers had officially run out of ideas.

And the one where they basically never recovered, at least 10 episodes later...  :(   I guess we need to have hope.

[InsertWordHere]

I'd be interested in seeing what the general consensus is for each character's worst centric. For me, Hook's would be The Brothers Jones, Emma's would be Firebird (but the present day scenes were great), and David's would be The Tower. Snow has had so many screwy flashbacks, most of them shared with either Regina or David that it's hard to only pick one for her. I would say The Cricket Game but that's more of a Regina centric. Rumple's would be Nasty Habits I think. I'm not sure about Belle's. I've actually enjoyed most of her princess sidequests.  

Edited December 9, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[Souris]

Worst episode for me is Breaking Glass by far. I still rage and flip tables when I think about it. (Keep in mind I didn't watch Wish You Were Here.)

I'm too sleepy to think of the rest of the list. But that one is a no-brainer for me. Absolutely offensive.

[Camera One]

Just judging based on the flashbacks...

David: I thought "White Out" was more insulting to his character.  "The Tower" was incredibly boring, though I loved the dream sequence with Emma.

Rumple: "Nasty Habits" was the worst, but I think it was Baelfire's worst flashback.  The flashback of Rumple's with the biggest retcon for me was "Devil's Due".  

Hook: I might go with "Swan Song".  "The Brothers Jones" would be the worst flashback in terms of Liam's character assassination, but Hook was fine in it.  The most boring one would probably be "Dark Waters".

Snow: Too numerous to count.  I would agree with "The Cricket Game" in terms of the most damaging.

Regina: One of the more pathetic ones for her was "Enter the Dragon".

[InsertWordHere]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

David: I thought "White Out" was more insulting to his character.  "The Tower" was incredibly boring, though I loved the dream sequence with Emma.

Yeah, after I posted I thought about what they did in that flashback in terms of making Anna be the impetus for David's heroism. I've changed my mind. White Out is the worst David flashback. 

I might agree about Swan Song too. IDK, I really didn't like The Brothers Jones flashbacks, but Swan Song was really damaging to Hook's character. Ugh, I'd have to say they're tied. 

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Given how horrible the winter finale was, I thought I would share my list for the top worst episodes of the series. These numbers aren't concrete, so I may waver a little. I don't count on anyone agreeing with it, lol. These are just my personal worst and not based on their writing quality alone.

#10 - Dreamcatcher
#9 - Ruby Slippers
#7 - Heroes and Villains
#6 - Bleeding Through
#5 - Breaking Glass
#4 - The Savior
#3 - Wish You Were Here
#2 - The Cricket Game
#1 - Only You/An Untold Story

Runners Up: Selfless, Brave and True, Street Rats, The Bear and the Bow, Unforgiven, Enter the Dragon, The Tower, and a long list of others...

Dream Catcher, Heroes and Villains, The Savior, Wish you were here, An Untold Story, Street Rats, are all written by Adam and Eddie.

Just sayin'

[Kktjones]

Yeah - I hated Hook's flashback in Swan Song. Everything about it was bad. By shoehorning the EQ into it, they had to have his father under a sleeping curse where he was awoken with a TLK from someone he never spoke to or saw. So bad. And then having Hook kill him and leave his brother orphaned - just so out of character. Terrible! The entire episode of The Brothers Jones was such a let down b/c they took a moment so many fans were looking forward to - Emma meeting Liam - and had them hate each other. And the flashback ruined Liam for me forever.

In terms of worst episodes:

1 - Breaking Glass - hated both the FB and the present day stuff

2 - Only You/An Untold Story

3 - Heroes & Villians

4 - Wish You Were Here

5 - The Bear King 

[Mathius]

I will always disagree with many here on "The Brothers Jones" and Liam, but that's neither here nor there.

Worst episodes for me would be "Child of the Moon", "Welcome to Storybrooke", "Selfless, Brave and True", "Lacey", "The Evil Queen", "It's Not Easy Being Green", "Bleeding Through", "A Curious Thing", "Kansas", "Breaking Glass", "Heroes & Villains", "Unforgiven", "Enter the Dragon", "Best Laid Plans", "Heart of Gold", "The Price", "The Bear and the Bow", "Her Handsome Hero", "The Savior", "A Bitter Draught", "Street Rats", "I'll Be Your Mirror", "Changelings", and "Wish You Were Here".  Runner-ups: "White Out", "Mother", "Dreamcatcher", "Ruby Slippers", and "Only You / An Untold Story".

Edited December 9, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

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I will always disagree with many here on "The Brothers Jones" and Liam, but that's neither here nor there.

It's weird that I'm usually not fan of Hook centrics, but I surprisingly did not mind that episode. It wasn't good, but I didn't really dislike it. 

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Worst episodes for me would be "Child of the Moon", "Welcome to Storybrooke", "Selfless, Brave and True", "Lacey", "The Evil Queen", "It's Not Easy Being Green", "Bleeding Through", "A Curious Thing", "Kansas", "Breaking Glass", "Heroes & Villains", "Unforgiven", "Enter the Dragon", "Best Laid Plans", "Heart of Gold", "The Price", "The Bear and the Bow", "Her Handsome Hero", "The Savior", "A Bitter Draught", "Street Rats", "I'll Be Your Mirror", "Changelings", and "Wish You Were Here".  Runner-ups: "White Out", "Mother", "Dreamcatcher", "Ruby Slippers", and "Only You / An Untold Story".

You could fill a season and a half with that Worst Episodes list, lol.

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The Bear King

Honestly, I don't mind The Bear King in retrospect. At the time it interrupted the tension after Birth, but now I sort of appreciate the random adventure angle. It was the only episode where Merida had any tolerable moments or showed any emotions other than vengeful fury. It told a coherent story and stayed much truer to Brave than anything else we had seen. The aesthetics and style were nicely done. It was something I had to rewatch to learn to enjoy.

Edited December 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

In thinking about this, I actually have very few episodes that I'd truly consider good, as in I'll watch them all the way through, both flashbacks and present day, with almost no fast forwarding through particular plot lines. This show has good moments, but doesn't do very many good episodes. When I rewatch, I'm usually watching for individual scenes or storylines. I'm not watching episodes. Even some of the good episodes have fast-forward moments (the gagworthy fireside picnic at the beginning of the season 3 finale, for instance -- even more galling when you know that Robin doesn't actually care what happened to Marian or who killed her).

I think the last episode I could actually watch all the way through was the one with Rumple and Milah last year ("Devil's Due"?). And "Birth" was good. In all of season 4, the only one I really like start to finish is "Poor Unfortunate Souls." I liked Cruella's backstory in that episode but hated the present-day story because of the screwy morality (and, really, Cruella's story doesn't work in a worldbuilding sense because it brings up too many issues that don't make sense). There was potential in the Frozen stuff, but those episodes were hampered by lame present-day plots, weak uses of the material in backstory, Regina's moping, and the repetitive nature of Rumple's story (I liked the idea of that plot, but it got redundant and then was badly fumbled at the goal line). We have to go back to 3A to find more than one episode per arc where I actually liked the episode rather than a scene or two along the way.

[superloislane]

"It's Not Easy Being Green", "Bleeding Through", "A Curious Thing", "Kansas". These episodes are why 3B is the second worst half season for me (6A managed to get the number one spot) with the season 3 finale being the only saving grace. I would watch "Breaking Glass" 50 times rather than watch any of those episodes again - that's how much I HATE them.

[Camera One]

Quote

In thinking about this, I actually have very few episodes that I'd truly consider good, as in I'll watch them all the way through, both flashbacks and present day, with almost no fast forwarding through particular plot lines.

It's a rare case when BOTH the flashbacks AND the present-day are good.  In most "good" episodes, it's one or the other.  

I mean, look at "The Other Shoe"... I *think* I really liked the episode, but it's mostly for the flashbacks since the present-day stuff was all over the place with a variety of ultimately pointless things happening... in addition to Emma/Archie, Emma/Henry/Hook looking for Ashley and Ashley nonsensically going off by herself, there was also Regina/Zelena, Regina/Snowing giving Hyde lasagna, Dr. Jekyll working on a serum, Mary Margaret deciding she wanted to live a normal life, David seeing Gold for info about the coin, and Belle getting the cassette tape.  Overall, none of those little bits and pieces were offensive enough to detract from the flashbacks, so that became the best episode of 6A.  Half of those things were half-baked and undeveloped while others led nowhere (eg. David's coin, Gold's cassette).  If they had used Snow's screentime and David's screentime by giving them each a one-on-one with Emma, that would have supported Emma's arc and made it a much better episode.

As mentioned before, the show actually does seem great in clip-shows, so it's the moments that outshine much of the show.  

Edited December 10, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

So many episodes to hate! lol But I'm going to do my 5 most-hated episodes.

5. Kansas. Regina's random light magic. 

4. Bleeding Through. Vilification of the Snowing clan, and the "I was a brat" line.

3. "Only You/An Untold Story. I agree that this was when the Show officially jumped the shark. The fountain scene still makes me cringe with second-hand embarrassment. 

2. Breaking Glass. My formerly most-hated episode.

1. Wish You Were Here. I'll never wish for anything from this Show ever again.

Special mentions to Selfless Brave and True, Enter the Dragon, Best Laid Plans, Heart of Gold, and The Bear and the Bow. Dreamy seems a masterpiece in hindsight. Sigh...

In terms of character-centrics, The Brothers Jones was the worst Killian flashback as it destroyed Liam's character. Liam was not my favorite character or anything, but everything about the episode was off. I hated the flashback in Swan Song, but Dark Waters sort of reconciled me to it because Killian was able to make peace with the brother he orphaned.

White Out was definitely the worst Charming flashback. Anna made him brave. Right...

Firebird was the worst flashback episode for Emma. It sort of placed Emma's successful career at the feet of some random women she had met two years before the Pilot. 

[Souris]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

So many episodes to hate! lol But I'm going to do my 5 most-hated episodes.

5. Kansas. Regina's random light magic. 

4. Bleeding Through. Vilification of the Snowing clan, and the "I was a brat" line.

3. "Only You/An Untold Story. I agree that this was when the Show officially jumped the shark. The fountain scene still makes me cringe with second-hand embarrassment. 

2. Breaking Glass. My formerly most-hated episode.

1. Wish You Were Here. I'll never wish for anything from this Show ever again.

Special mentions to Selfless Brave and True, Enter the Dragon, Best Laid Plans, Heart of Gold, and The Bear and the Bow. Dreamy seems a masterpiece in hindsight. Sigh...

I think I'll just steal your list with the caveat that I didn't watch Wish You Were Here. If I had, sounds like it would have been No. 1. I hate all of the episodes you listed. But I would also throw in Souls of the Departed. Between the Neal opening and the rest of the 100th ep being about Regina, it deserves to be on the list.

[InsertWordHere]

45 minutes ago, Souris said:

But I would also throw in Souls of the Departed. Between the Neal opening and the rest of the 100th ep being about Regina, it deserves to be on the list.

How did I forget this one, which was either first or second on my worst episodes of season five list? Oh God, Jiminy in Snow's dress. Cringe.

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't include Souls of the Departed on mine since it includes of Regina's few flickers of remorse. I legitimately loved the Henry Sr. scenes in the Underworld. In my opinion, that was one of the show's most poignant episodes.

Edited December 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

So many episodes to hate!

There really are! I've been reading through everyone's so far list and the first one I read and I agree I hated those episodes then move onto the next one only to realize yes I hated those too.

[Camera One]

I liked "Souls of the Departed" as well.  To me, just because it's about Regina doesn't automatically make an episode bad.  And having a scene with Neal doesn't destroy an episode either.  The problem was the arc as a whole ultimately made it seem like none of Regina's other victims mattered or deserved to be saved.  But as an arc premiere, I thought that episode gave an intriguing entry into the Underworld, and actually explored a supporting guest character (Henry Sr.), making him more than a cardboard cutout... he grew as much as Regina did.  It makes sense for HIM to be proud of Regina becoming a good person, and for that to motivate Regina.  It's way better than another episode of Emma or Snow or Henry patting her on the back.  There were still a couple of major problems with the episode, but I found it to be a solid episode.

[YaddaYadda]

The entire B arc bothered the hell out of me. The only person who got what they really deserved was Pan when he ended up in the River of Lost Souls. Milah, Auntie Em, Gaston and even James didn't deserve that kind of fate when Cora who tore hearts out, murdered people left and right got to be treated very differently from the rest. The writers like saying that their show is about hope, but they give hope to the people they feel should have it. Everyone else can basically go to hell.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The entire B arc bothered the hell out of me.

Pun intended?

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I liked "Souls of the Departed" as well.  To me, just because it's about Regina doesn't automatically make an episode bad.  And having a scene with Neal doesn't destroy an episode either. 

Many episodes are a mixed bag. They come with things to hate and things to like. I hated the flashbacks and the Neal scene in that episode, but I loved the Underworld, Hades' entrance with Cora, and Regina making amends with Henry Sr. I have to play the game of pros vs. cons a lot. In Souls of the Departed's case, the pros just happen to outweigh the cons for me.

[YaddaYadda]

27 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Pun intended?

Yes, although the UW was not really hell, but it was kind of hell, but not really. It's like the wish realm. It's real, but not really, but it's really real, but the people in it are not, but wait! Exception!

Edited December 10, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

I'm wondering what the point was in making Emma and Snow condone/suggest that Regina split herself in two in the Season 5 finale.  

No one ever mentions the circumstances nor the reason why this was done in the first place.  Regina hasn't had an episode where she regrets her decision or reflect on why she even did it.  As we have discussed before, we don't even know if Regina feels any different without The Evil Queen inside of her.  

If they never planned to address this, or use it to "explore" Regina's feelings, then why didn't they have some villain make Regina take the potion?  

I wonder if instead of "Street Rats" and the idiotic school/archery storyline, they could have done a flashback where Snow and Jasmine met as teenagers.  Maybe Snow visits Agrabah with her father and Regina, and meets Jasmine and her father and Jafar.  Maybe they begin to get along, but Snow is really serious about learning to become a ruler in the future, while Jasmine is preoccupied with freedom and wanting to see life outside the city walls.  But then, they had a falling out because they say something that the other refuses to see (eg. Jasmine criticizing Regina and Snow criticizing Jafar).  Seeing each other again, Jasmine realizes that she didn't see what Jafar was doing to her father because she was so preoccupied, while Jasmine reminds Snow that once upon a time, she did want to be a leader, but now she's anything but, plus it reminds Snow, especially seeing The Evil Queen around town, that she let the woman terrorize her and her kingdom for y ears.  The Land of Untold Stories people (refugees from The Enchanted Forest) could pressure Regina into stepping down as Mayor, and Snow realizes she has to step up and she has let these people down during The Evil Queen years.  

Edited December 11, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

My worsts:

1 - 4.16 “Best Laid Plans,” 2 - 4.21-22 “Operation Mongoose,”3 - 2.19 “Lacey,” 4 - 5.06 “The Bear and the Bow,” 5 - 2.12 “In the Name of the Brother,” 6 - 3.07 “Dark Hollow,” 7 - 2.13 “Tiny,” 8 - 5.17 “Her Handsome Hero,” 9 - 5.15 “The Brothers Jones,” 10 - 3.14 “The Tower,” 11 - 5.09 “The Bear King,” 12 - 6.05 “Street Rats,” 13 - 2.07 “Child of the Moon,” 14 - 5.02 “The Price,” 15 - 1.05 “That Still Small Voice”

Often I find that it's the episodes where the various love interests (Hook, Neal, Belle, Robin, Charming) play a heavy role that I hate.
 

My favorites:

1 - 2.16 “The Miller’s Daughter,” 2 - 5.16 “Our Decay,” 3 - 1.18 “The Stable Boy,” 4 - 4.18 “Sympathy for the De Vil,” 5 - 3.20 “Kansas,” 6 - 5.09 “Birth,” 7 - 3.08 “Think Lovely Thoughts,” 8 - 3.11 "Going Home," 9. 3.15 “Quiet Minds,” 10 - 1.11 “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree,” 11 - 4.17 “Heart of Gold,” 12 - 3.19 “A Curious Thing,” 13 - 4.10 “Shattered Sight,” 14 - 2.8 “Into the Deep,” 15 - 1.8 “Desperate Souls,” 16 - 1.7 “The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter,” 17 - 5.07 “Nimue,” 18 - 6.09 “Changelings,” 19 - 3.16 “It’s Not Easy Being Green,” 20 - 3.06 “Ariel,” 21 - 2.17 “Welcome to Storybrooke," 22 - 3.09 "Save Henry," 23 - 1.03 "The Price of Gold," 24 - 6-4 "Strange Case," 25 - 1.20 "The Stranger," 26 - 2.15 "The Queen Is Dead," 27 - 3.02 "Lost Girl," 28 - 4.03 “Rocky Road,” 29 - 5.21 “Last Rites,” 30 - 3.12 “New York Serenade”

Edited December 12, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking since often many otherwise crappy episodes have a redeeming scene or two and because I know some people only watch scenes with their favorite characters, we often miss discussing those little moments that make the show worth watching. What are people's favorite moments of the show? 

Some of my favorites:

• Emma breaks the curse in "A Land without Magic"
• Emma's I'm not nothing moment in "Nimue"
• Graham's breakup speech to Regina in "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter"
• The scene where Emma tells Mary Margaret that Henry thinks she's Emma's mother in "True North" ( I miss that relationship so much)
• Jefferson's speech about how everyone wants a magical solution, but no one believes in magic in "Hat Trick"
• Cora getting the best of Rumpelstiltskin in "The Miller's Daughter"
• Zelena tearing apart Regina's woe is me life story in "Witch Hunt"
• Anna & Elsa's reunion on the beach in "Fall" (It's such a joyous happy moment that it makes me feel good. Whatever happened to those moments?)
• The scene in the diner when Mary Margaret is supposed to tell Henry that she read the book to comatose David and nothing happened and instead she & Henry get all excited because he woke up in "Snow Falls"
• Neal's speech to Rumpel in his apartment in "Manhattan"

[KingOfHearts]

My most favorite moment was the cliffhanger to Going Home, with Emma and Henry in their NY apartment and Hook at the door trying to kiss Emma. I watched it so many times when I first got into OUAT. I just loved everything about it, and still do.

Going Home is my favorite episode of all time because it's full of moments like that.

[YaddaYadda]

20 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Going Home is my favorite episode of all time because it's full of moments like that.

Going Home is interesting because it's one of those mixed bags episode but filled with moments. When I watch it, half the time, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense.

Favorite moment was Emma and Hook at the town line. That's also when I really went down the Captain Swan rabbit hole.

6x07 is kind of similar to that, I find, where there are these moments in it. I'm not going to forget the story time scene.

[TheGreenKnight]

I remember thinking at the time that "Going Home" felt like a series finale.

[Curio]

Both the Season 3 midseason finale and the actual Season 3 finale could have been series finales. Just cut out the part about Marian at the end of the time travel adventure and I could have accepted that as a series finale. I mean, I would have wanted more seasons to explore these characters, but I would have considered that a very pleasant ending and a "stick the landing" kind of finish. No other finale or midseason finale has come close to sticking the landing after that. In fact, every ending (4A, 4B, 5A, 5B, 6A) has made me irrationally angry and upset for one reason or another. (Maybe A&E should allow Jane or someone else a chance to get in on the finale action.) I guess there's still hope the Season 6 finale could be good, but it'll take a lot for me to forgive the Season 6 midseason finale.

[KingOfHearts]

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I remember thinking at the time that "Going Home" felt like a series finale.

The writers actually intended it to feel that way.

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Both the Season 3 midseason finale and the actual Season 3 finale could have been series finales.

I feel like 3A was the end of the original show. 3B was very much a transition period that ended old plots (Neal, Emma's home) and introduced new ones. (Outlaw Queen, Zelena, official Captain Swan) It set the tone for the future of the show. While 3A started the half-season formula, it still kept the same "magic". It was the last really solid arc, at least in my opinion.

Quote

Going Home is interesting because it's one of those mixed bags episode but filled with moments. When I watch it, half the time, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense.

Going Home embodies everything good about the show - character moments, family, adventure, magic shenanigans, drama, and hope. Not all of it is that great, though. We didn't need to see Hook and Tink make eye sex and um... what did we need the Black Fairy's Wand for again? Pan's Curse was very contrived and had little to do with everything else that had been going on, but I forgive its abruptness because it brought us such great drama. The Rumpbelle and Snow/Henry flashbacks were well done. I wouldn't mind another episode that just gave us random character moments in the past.

[Mari]

Emma pruning Regina's apple tree.

Blue telling Regina she'd better run.

Hook's "win your heart" speech.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't necessarily remember which episodes my favorite moments have been in, since what I remember is the moment, not the episode, but here are a few of mine:

• The opening of the pilot -- Charming on the horse going to wake Snow White. Absolutely beautiful.
• Emma's arrival in Storybrooke -- somehow it all looks simultaneously creepy and fairy tale, like a sleeping kingdom that needs to be awakened.
• Snow and Charming's original meet-cute
• The moment when Prince James is killed (and we don't yet know he's not Charming) -- still probably the best surprise twist ever on this show
• When Henry ate the apple tart and passed out -- okay, there are other reasons now why I enjoy that, but at the time, it was kind of a crowning moment of awesome for him, a desperate sacrifice to prove the truth to Emma
• The breaking of the curse, Regina's reaction, Blue's warning to Regina (too bad they fumbled the aftermath)
• Emma seeing what was supposed to have been her nursery
• the bit at the end of "The Crocodile" when we see Hook on the deck of his ship in a gorgeous wide shot where it's clear they used the real ship (seriously, that bit is so gorgeous that I bought that season on Blu-Ray)
• the beanstalk climb and tying the bandage
• when they figured out that Emma's name was written in squid ink and they managed to escape the cell
• Cora and Hook's arrival in Storybrooke -- her turning the guy into a fish, him kicking the fish into the water (which sums up his character pretty well -- it looks all tough and badass, but he's actually saving the guy's life)
• Snow using the candle -- yeah, they act like this was a terrible thing to do, but I still think it was awesome and a brilliant solution to the problem they faced
• when we saw that it was Hook who fished Bae out of the water. Also, Hook turning the ship around
• Emma's metaphorical smack upside the head to the idiots traveling with her to Neverland when she went overboard to make them stop fighting.
• Emma figuring out that she was a lost girl, and solving the map
• When Emma kissed Hook. I wasn't really a shipper, and then that happened. It's also hilarious just how furiously Colin was blushing. They might have been able to color correct that in post production or maybe smack more makeup on him for another take, but I love that they left it.
• The very end of the 3A finale.
• Most of the 3B finale (I can't really come up with other fun moments to revisit from 3B)
• Evil warlord Bo Peep, past and present
• Most of the scenes between Ingrid and Emma
• Sven!
• Belle catching Rumple about to kill Hook and forcing him over the town line (too bad they fumbled that in the aftermath)
• Ursula reconciling with her father
• the Wookiee prison break scheme in the 4B finale
• Hook walking into the light, thinking he was moving on, and finding himself with Emma (their reunion is a rare spark of happiness in an increasingly bleak show)

[Mathius]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I feel like 3A was the end of the original show. 3B was very much a transition period that ended old plots (Neal, Emma's home) and introduced new ones. (Outlaw Queen, Zelena, official Captain Swan) It set the tone for the future of the show. While 3A started the half-season formula, it still kept the same "magic". It was the last really solid arc, at least in my opinion.

It's scary, I look at this post and feel like I could have written it, since those are my sentiments exactly.  I guess it's not so uncommon as I thought.

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Both the Season 3 midseason finale and the actual Season 3 finale could have been series finales. Just cut out the part about Marian at the end of the time travel adventure and I could have accepted that as a series finale. I mean, I would have wanted more seasons to explore these characters, but I would have considered that a very pleasant ending and a "stick the landing" kind of finish. 

You'd have to cut Marian from the whole thing for that to work, and I would personally prefer it if the time portal opened without Zelena being killed by Gold (if the series was to end here, then leaving her in jail with a potential chance to reform would be a better note to end her on), but otherwise I agree that there was definite series finale potential in the S3 finale, and that both it and 3x11 were the best finales we've had aside from the S1 finale.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Mathius