A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

I watched "Birth" last night, and it was pretty blatant how Zelena pointed out Emma separated her from her baby right after she gave birth.  I guess now Emma, as well her parents, are babynappers and committed the same sins that they were victims of, so now neither Snow, Charming nor Emma can pretend they aren't above separating mothers from their newborns.

[Dianthus]

While you have a point, DO Emma was planning on transferring the darkness to Zelena and then killing her. I doubt Emma would willingly separate a newborn from it's mother under normal circumstances.

[Camera One]

For sure, I don't think she would either.  I meant it more in the sense of the writers making sure that everything Regina did, the Charmings now have all done the same.  With the exception of massacring villages.

[Rumsy4]

And rape.

I still can't get over Regina of all people lecturing Zelena on the "vileness" of her deception of Robin.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

Zelena was in prison. She wasn't ever going to have custody of the baby. The baby stayed right where she was always going to be with the people who were always going to raise her. Emma simply moved Zelena to a different prison (while admittedly planning to kill her). I don't consider that separating families the way Regina did with Grace/Jefferson, Hansel/Gretel/Father or Emma/Charmings or what the Charmings did to Lily where parent/child are left wondering what happened to the other and why they were abandoned. The show had Regina carry on the tradition by having her be the one to truly separate Zelena from Pistachio by sending her to Oz. 

Edited December 28, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Free]

And rape.

I still can't get over Regina of all people lecturing Zelena on the "vileness" of her deception of Robin.

 

She's worse because she's being self righteous and lecturing for crimes she herself committed.

 

And all it did snatch a baby away only to abandon it mere scenes later in the mid seson finale.

[Dianthus]

They can say all they like that the Charming Family (and their pirate mascot) are just as bad as the Mills women. As I have no garden to fertilize, I'm not buying any.

[Free]

They can say all they like that the Charming Family (and their pirate mascot) are just as bad as the Mills women. As I have no garden to fertilize, I'm not buying any.

 

Who needs an actual redemption story when you can trash/sideline the good characters and use other villains to prop them up?

 

I don't find Once Upon a Time's story that interesting right now. Which sounds remarkably strange given the setup. I applaud the writers for constructing a functioning multiverse filled with all sorts of characters. That's difficult to pull off on a TV show, especially using Disney as the foundation. But it's really not about the multiverse or its inhabitants, though. It's not even about Storybrooke or the main characters. As it stands, the show centers around elements very small compared to the grand scale of the setting. What we see are a string of events leading up to one or two plot elements.

 

Definitely, especially after the Dark Swan arc, which ended up being the most disappointing.

 

I just don't have much to be interested in when it's just so formulaic especially since the outcome is so obvious, that and the spoilers isn't exactly exciting.  Just a bunch of old and new characters popping up in the UW especially after they struggled to handle the new characters in the last arc, we just get a bunch more, that's not exactly promising.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Who needs an actual redemption story when you can trash/sideline the good characters and use other villains to prop them up?

A&E don't see real people in their characters - they see names and faces. When we delve into Regina's pysche, we're looking at the Evil Queen who just wants happiness. Even though so much time is spent on her story, we're never really shown why she feels the way she does. It's because there's no reasoning for it. To avoid confronting that, they shift the playing field instead.

Edited December 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

To avoid confronting that, they shift the playing field instead.

 

Agreed, it's always brushed aside quickly soon after it's introduced and then you have other characters covering for them.

[Dianthus]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: A & E don't see these characters as people (like we do). They see them as playthings. For whatever reason (I sure as hell don't know what it is), Regina is their favorite plaything. She gets to be the bratty, whiny, self-centered, entitled inner-child outlet of two grown men. Go figure.

[Camera One]

I didn't get to finish my rewatch of 5A since my friend had to go back home after vacation.  The last episode we watched was "Birth".  I suppose that could have served as a half-season finale, with a cliffhanger.  She did suggest squeezing in one more episode before she left, but knowing it was "The Bear King" and she had already noted this show was ruining "Brave" for her... it ended up not working out anyway.  She really doesn't care enough about the show to watch it herself, though she did mention that one of her friends has raved about every season (even 3B and 4B), but finally in 5A, said the show was becoming predictable.  

[Free]

I didn't get to finish my rewatch of 5A since my friend had to go back home after vacation.  The last episode we watched was "Birth".  I suppose that could have served as a half-season finale, with a cliffhanger.  She did suggest squeezing in one more episode before she left, but knowing it was "The Bear King" and she had already noted this show was ruining "Brave" for her... it ended up not working out anyway.  She really doesn't care enough about the show to watch it herself, though she did mention that one of her friends has raved about every season (even 3B and 4B), but finally in 5A, said the show was becoming predictable.  

 

What made it worse is that 5a should've broken away from the mold with what it dealt with (Dark Swan, DO mythology, etc.) and yet it became just as formulaic, if not even moreso.

[Writing Wrongs]

Remember the Comic-Con Dark Swan teaser? This season was sooo not that.

 

I'm re-watching 5A also and from the first two episodes, I still don't see the connection of the things Emma says and does to the big Hook DO reveal.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Writing Wrongs

[Camera One]

I don't see the point of filming a teaser which didn't even fit into the future plotline; more than that, it was contrary to what actually happened.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Camera One

[pezgirl7]

We know they filmed some Dark Swan scenes early on that they never used, so it's possible that the backlash to the comic con teaser made them change the direction of the arc and the style of Emma as the DO.

[daxx]

We know they filmed some Dark Swan scenes early on that they never used, so it's possible that the backlash to the comic con teaser made them change the direction of the arc and the style of Emma as the DO.

If they did I'm glad, I hated the idea of Emma full of light magic suddenly crushing hearts.

[Rumsy4]

The tease was A&E's typical bait and switch. None of their arcs end up being what they are promised to be. lol

[RadioGirl27]

We know they filmed some Dark Swan scenes early on that they never used, so it's possible that the backlash to the comic con teaser made them change the direction of the arc and the style of Emma as the DO.

The more I think about this half season, the more sure I am that they changed their original plan. I don't know if it was the reaction at the Comic Con, or something else, but Dark Hook looks like a Plan B to me. 

[Camera One]

It does make one wonder, but overall, I think Dark Hook is right up their alley of "shocking twist".  In planning the half season, they would have needed to give Dark Emma a secret agenda which wouldn't be revealed until near the end.  Saving Hook would have been the natural reason for why she turned "dark", especially considering the main facet of Emma they wanted to explore in this half season was her relationship with Hook.  I would assume they already had the 100 Episode being in the Underworld, so they knew the story needed to get everyone there.  So they worked backwards and filled in the blanks only to realize they had 2 episodes leftover.  Hence, Merida.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

So they worked backwards and filled in the blanks only to realize they had 2 episodes leftover.  Hence, Merida.

 

Of all the filler ideas they could come up with, they thought up... Merida. The mind boggles.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Think of the possible alternatives.  Hercules smacking Rumple around making him a hero.  Pocahontas using a leaf blowdryer on Rumple to make him a hero.  Quasimodo tying Rumple to a giant bell in the clocktower until he became a hero.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Camera One

[orza]

The more I think about this half season, the more sure I am that they changed their original plan. I don't know if it was the reaction at the Comic Con, or something else, but Dark Hook looks like a Plan B to me

.

Babies are what happened. Back when they filmed the teaser and then at Comic Con Adam and Eddy had no idea that they would soon have to contend with three pregnancies. A well-known Hollywood gossip site posted a blind item in September, I believe, that a popular show was frantically rewriting their season on the fly due to a baby boom among the cast. It tuned out it was this show. They completely dropped the Lily story arc they had set up in season 4 and had to rework story arcs involving Snow and Belle.

 

Based on what we did see of Dark Swan, I think it is likely that A & E or the network realized several episodes in that Jennifer Morrison was awful as Dark Swan and was not able to carry the arc so they had to come up with something else, hence Dark Hook. Those kind of changes on the fly happen a lot in serialized shows to fix problems that are only apparent when production is well under way.

[Camera One]

Jennifer Morrison was so bad as Dark Swan that they let her continue for all 11 episodes?  That wouldn't have been a very effective way to solve a problem.  

 

The actress playing Lily being pregnant could have stopped their plan in revealing her father.  I wonder what A&E was envisioning for that, or if they even had anything planned.  So she would have gone to Camelot with them?  Were they committed to bringing the actress on as a regular?  Would Lily have been in lieu of Merida or Zelena?

[KAOS Agent]

Bullshit. None of those women was pregnant when the season was being written and started to film or at the very least they didn't know it. Lily wasn't ever a part of the 5A plans once they really started writing it. 5B is where the writers were scrambling to adjust for the pregnancies. I think Emilie knew early enough that they were able to better plan than Ginny. I doubt they'd have had Snow go to the Underworld if they had known early enough. I think they may cut the Underworld arc short to accommodate a surprise Belle pregnancy arc for her and Rumpel before Emilie is out on maternity leave and to make things easier to write Ginny out should it become necessary.

 

Dark Swan was never going to be all that evil. They had no way of knowing whether they'd get another season and an all out evil Emma would be tough to redeem and give a happy ending in a half season. Not to mention that I think they are aware that the constant dragging the heroes through the mud is having a negative effect on viewership.

Edited January 4, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Free]

It does make one wonder, but overall, I think Dark Hook is right up their alley of "shocking twist".  In planning the half season, they would have needed to give Dark Emma a secret agenda which wouldn't be revealed until near the end.  Saving Hook would have been the natural reason for why she turned "dark", especially considering the main facet of Emma they wanted to explore in this half season was her relationship with Hook.  I would assume they already had the 100 Episode being in the Underworld, so they knew the story needed to get everyone there.  So they worked backwards and filled in the blanks only to realize they had 2 episodes leftover.  Hence, Merida.

 

I remember even last season also hinting at Emma going dark and her magic going out of control with both the Frozen arc and the Lily plot, so, yes, it just doesn't even add up to the start of the season.

 

Even the Merida plot didn't really go anywhere, she was used as a plot device to help Rumple be brave only to revert him back to being a villain again a la S4 making it completely pointless in the end as well as leaving her character up in the air along with the Camelot characters.

 

Even if they needed to go to the Underworld, there was no reason for it to become so messy and they have even more characters and plots to work with next arc: Hercules storyline, Finding/rescuing Hook, Dorothy/I'm assuming Wicked's subplot, etc.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, I do feel with shows I marathon, I don't get to "savor" it as much.  I know with this show, it's like what's there to savor, but this message board provides a lot of value added in the week between

What's strange is that I don't actually find that much difference between watching week-to-week and binge watching. Even when I watch the episodes slowly and attempt to "savor" them, it's still a blur. Especially in 2B-onward. Every once in a while you get a memorable one, but normally they never needed to happen. I wouldn't mind tangent or one-off episodes, but the subject matter is always recycled and uninteresting. Stories like Team Princess 2.0 and Rapunzel lack any independent standing. I'd prefer Hansel and Gretel or Cruella, where you can tell a lot more effort was put in.

 

The arcs are also so repetitive in their basic structure:

1. Introduce the characters or settings the audience will be seeing the rest of the arc. (Frozen, Queens of Darkness)

2. Cue CGI monster bash. (Marshmallow, Chernabog)

3. Introduce Big Bad. (Zelena, Ingrid)

4. Move through unimportant centrics with pointless flashbacks.

5. Give the Bad Bad their flashback episode(s).

6. Create a catalyst event for the climax. (Isaac unleashed, Dark Hook) 

7. Spend one or two episodes setting up the climax. Use more flashbacks for extra fluff.

8. Follow through with climax that extinguishes current threat. Magical contrivance required.

9. Use all of remaining screen time to tease next arc or give Regina an extra scene where applicable.

 

Arcs most also include:

* Obligatory whitewashing redemption arc for Regina

* Rumpbelle breaking up then getting back together again

* Snowing doing something stupid

* Henry giving bad advice that's touted as gospel truth

* Emma chastised for being rightfully defensive

* Swan Queen baiting

* Hook brooding about his inner conflict

Edited January 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree that upon rewatch, it makes no difference.  I find that when I rewatch marathon-style, my feeling about the episodes are about the same, or worse.  None of the arcs or the individual episodes improve to any significant degree when binge-watched.  The same things tend to irk me and often, even less makes sense given the context after seeing the arc.

 

My comment about being better able to "savor" episodes was more about watching seasons for the first time.  There are quite a few shows I've binge-watched, including "24" and "Fringe" (I never watched them week-to-week, except "Fringe" in its final season).  I feel when binge-watching, the episodes end up even more of a blur than usual, and I don't get to think about stuff as much without a week in between and the intermittent discussion.  

 

So to me, watching shows where I was forced to wait a week in between like "Lost" and "Once Upon a Time" allowed me to not necessarily like the episode more, but at least to get some "fun" out of talking about it and reading other people's thoughts.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Camera One

[sharky]

The more I think about this half season, the more sure I am that they changed their original plan. I don't know if it was the reaction at the Comic Con, or something else, but Dark Hook looks like a Plan B to me. 

I'm not sure about that. First, they broke the entire season in May so going to the Underworld to get Hook was likely the 5B plan from before the first episode of the season started shooting. And second, as someone mentioned above, this is so something that A&E would do. They distracted us with Dark Swan and then SHOCKING TWIST! And then awesome huge emotional scene that would've been even better if there was an entire story that supported the emotional scene. A&E are great at moments and twists, but all the stuff in between that is supposed to support these moments and justify these twists just becomes mush in their hands.

 

As for the baby boom, I don't think it would've had such an impact that they would've completely scrapped the second half of the season and started over with the Underworld because they had something else planned. They probably had things like a Lily storyline as a B plot that was put on hold or maybe Belle was supposed to go to the Underworld with the Nevengers instead of Gold. That would actually make sense because instead, they have Belle accepting Rumple -- again -- despite all the crap he pulled. The Nevengers know Gold's secret about being the Dark One -- again -- and won't tell Belle because they are blackmailing Gold to do something for them -- again. And really, how many of us watched the mid-season finale and thought, "Why the hell is Gold going along with Underworld this plan? Why does he even care about this 'Hook-saving mission?" It's because he's playing Belle's part. I just don't understand what A&E have against potted plants, tables at Granny's, big winter coats and anything else that can hide a pregnancy so they don't have to write it into the show.

 

Anyways, the whole reason I'm diving into this thread in the first place is because I'm cleaning off my DVR. I usually marathon the previous half season before the new half season starts, which I didn't do with season 4B. So I've finally gotten around to it this week. I'm three episodes into my 4B rewatch and I remember why I didn't care about watching it again. That half season is just awful and it's been a tough slough so far. The author? The three evils with Rumple? Ugh. I feel obligated to watch the whole episode, but that's partially because I have alot of knitting projects that need to get done and the show is a bad distraction. I mean, I just finished "Enter the Dragon" and the only redeeming part of that entire episode was Colin acting his ass off in the rain as Gold pretending to be Hook. A 45-minute episode with two minutes of redeeming content.

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah, I trashed a whole bunch of episodes from 4B. I have Poor Unfortunate Soul, the Cruella episode (because as a stand alone, it was actually good), and both parts of Operation Fucking Hell because I can't get rid of part 1 without getting rid of part 2. 

 

I haven't started doing the 5A rewatch. I got rid of episode 6 because I really, and I mean really can't stand Merida. And I can't get rid of episode 9 because if I do, then I'll have to get rid of episode 8 which ain't happening. 

 

I think it would have made all the difference in the world if 5x09 wasn't another Merida centric but had been used instead to explain Hook went all cray cray, and where Belle really stood with Rumple before she decided to just break up with him, and then go back to him (huh?), and I don't know, maybe show how Rumple felt without his powers. I mean if anyone clearly felt like he was nothing without that magic, it's Rumple. Maybe they could've used I don't know that time to show MM and David trying to go to their daughter instead of waiting for her to kidnap Zelena to actually do that.

 

I get that they were filming both 5x08 and 5x09 at the same time, and that 5x09 was an hour that the network ordered. But if you get an extra hour, use it properly.

 

They didn't even bring back that stupid talk to the dead ale. Instead they made Arthur into an even worse douchebag (I still love you, Arthur! No amount of fuckery will change that), and gave what's his face (Merida's father) a helmet that was too small for his head.

 

Even the whole Red/Mulan possible romance left me very meh, and I was looking forward to that. I know this is early stages, so I'll lay off, but that was a waste of an hour.

 

As far as the pregnancies go, there are tons of ways to write around those, and I'm not sure that there has been tons of re-writes. Ginny was showing by episode 10, so they've known for a while about her pregnancy, and decided that the character was going to the UW anyway. And they've probably known about Emilie probably somewhere in the middle of the writing of 5A, and decided her character wouldn't be tagging along to the UW. It's not like they ever use either to their full potential anyway, so really, big diff!

Edited January 4, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Free]

I agree that upon rewatch, it makes no difference.  I find that when I rewatch marathon-style, my feeling about the episodes are about the same, or worse.  None of the arcs or the individual episodes improve to any significant degree when binge-watched.  The same things tend to irk me and often, even less makes sense given the context after seeing the arc.

 

It depends for me, with binge-watching, I can notice more inconsistencies than original watching on a weekly basis.

[KingOfHearts]

Currently at Child of the Moon on my rewatch. This could have done a heap of characterization for Ruby, and it tries, but its plot is horrible. Quinn and Anita are forgettable. King George's scheme to dethrone Charming is dumb as heck. There was no proof of the murder and Ruby was already locked up, yet the angry mob (probably George's constituents from EF) is on the march to kill her. Personally, I thought it was an odd creative choice to pair George's revenge with Ruby's centric. For as big a side-villain George was in S1, he deserved better.

 

Nothing really happens plot-wise, so it's pretty filler. We get a few scenes with Regina, Henry and Rumple talking about the Netherworld, then of course George destroys Jefferson's hat. Tallahassee had a lot of story and Into the Deep has a lot of story, so this episode feels weird in between them.

Edited January 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It was their typical mash-up, trying to hit multiple points and characters and not really succeeding at any of them.  It was hard to tell who they were trying to "develop".  Red trying to figure out her identity?  It was hard to know what her identity even was by the end other than she liked to run free as a wolf.  But she clearly couldn't fit in and she didn't agree with the wolf coven (which makes her desire to find her wolf kin in "The Bear King" even more unlikely).  So how did she feel about her wolfness?  So little is fleshed out even though there was so much potential.  What was the general view of the Enchanted Forest folk towards werewolves?  Was the mob mentality prevalent?  If so, why did they keep going to Granny's?  How much control did Red have when in her wolf form?  If she was always in control, why did she have so much doubt in "Child of the Moon" Storybrooke storyline?  Was it solely "magic works differently here"?  Since it sure seemed to run much much deeper than that.  How did Red deal with her boyfriend's death at her hands in the past?  Where did Granny and Red run off to?  Did Red ever confront Granny about keeping the secret from her?  We got to see none of that.  And even if we get Red back, she doesn't even get to share a scene with Granny.

 

And what about Charming vs. King George?  Was this supposed to be about Charming being a leader?  Because despite that short arc, we got to see very little of that.  The writers could have delved into how Charming fit into royal life and becoming King with Snow, but they never did.  It's like they just needed King George to be a big baddie for an episode while Regina was reforming and Rumple was going on hamburger dates.  They even sacrificed Gus Gus to show how bad King George was, but for what?  

Edited January 7, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

They even sacrificed Gus Gus to show how bad King George was, but for what?

It's not like I was ever a big King George fan, but there was so much disconnect between his beef with Charming and Red's dilemma. Then at the end he just disappears with no explanation. (I'm aware of the deleted scene.) 

 

 

It's like they just needed King George to be a big baddie for an episode while Regina was reforming and Rumple was going on hamburger dates.

In 2A, you can tell A&E are struggling to hold everything together. Flashbacks, Storybrooke and Enchanted Forest all happening in the same episodes could have made things very, very messy. For the most part it stayed steady, with Child of the Moon being the major exception. 

 

 

Red trying to figure out her identity?  It was hard to know what her identity even was by the end other than she liked to run free as a wolf.  But she clearly couldn't fit in and she didn't agree with the wolf coven (which makes her desire to find her wolf kin in "The Bear King" even more unlikely).  So how did she feel about her wolfness?

You know, I love Ruby and her centric in S1. But after seeing The Bear King and rewatching Child of the Moon, I wouldn't care if we never saw her again. The writing "exploring" her wolfness is atrociously confusing and vague. Her relationships with other characters are about as inconsistent as Belle's. Speaking of which, I wish those two should have been the LGBT couple. They had more chemistry in 2A than Mulan Rouge did in 5A, imo.

Edited January 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

Yeah, I trashed a whole bunch of episodes from 4B. I have Poor Unfortunate Soul, the Cruella episode (because as a stand alone, it was actually good), and both parts of Operation Fucking Hell because I can't get rid of part 1 without getting rid of part 2.

I haven't started doing the 5A rewatch. I got rid of episode 6 because I really, and I mean really can't stand Merida. And I can't get rid of episode 9 because if I do, then I'll have to get rid of episode 8 which ain't happening.

I think it would have made all the difference in the world if 5x09 wasn't another Merida centric but had been used instead to explain Hook went all cray cray, and where Belle really stood with Rumple before she decided to just break up with him, and then go back to him (huh?), and I don't know, maybe show how Rumple felt without his powers. I mean if anyone clearly felt like he was nothing without that magic, it's Rumple. Maybe they could've used I don't know that time to show MM and David trying to go to their daughter instead of waiting for her to kidnap Zelena to actually do that.

I get that they were filming both 5x08 and 5x09 at the same time, and that 5x09 was an hour that the network ordered. But if you get an extra hour, use it properly.

They didn't even bring back that stupid talk to the dead ale. Instead they made Arthur into an even worse douchebag (I still love you, Arthur! No amount of fuckery will change that), and gave what's his face (Merida's father) a helmet that was too small for his head.

This. 5x09 should have been used to show Hook slowly cracking. More scenes with Rumple (or even Nimue) whispering in his ears, more paranoia and distrust. More scenes that made it look like Emma didn't trust him/was lying to him.

Something. Anything. They could have also done some scenes where Belle is doubting getting back together with Rumple, Snow and Charming doing something, anything.

Instead we got Merida. :(

If I had a dvr the only eps from 4b I'd keep are the Ursula and Cruella centrics. For 5a I'd keep all of them except eps 5, 6, and 9. Because of Merida and I thought episode 5 was boring, although I was fine with most of the Henry/Violet stuff. The others range from average to goodish to amazing (episode 8, y'all), despite nothing making sense. I thought there were some great acting moments (especially for CS) scattered throughout this half season.

Also: i'd rewatch 5a again just for the costumes, honestly. My standards are kind of low.

[Shanna Marie]

The weird thing about using the story about the conflict between David and George to do a Ruby centric is that it leaves a huge gap in the story. We know David and Snow fought a war against Regina and George and won. They're living in George's castle when the curse is cast. So, how did that happen? If they took over two kingdoms, why are they still "Prince" and "Princess" instead of "King and Queen"? Snow was merely taking back her rightful kingdom from a usurper, but David would be something of a usurper/conqueror with George, since George was the rightful king, was still alive, and David wasn't really his heir. We don't know how this farmboy handled ruling a kingdom, how people reacted to him and Snow taking over George's kingdom. Since the flashbacks were Ruby, we didn't even get to compare his current leadership to what happened in the past. The "Prince Charming is really a farmboy impostor" twist is probably my favorite of the "these aren't the stories you thought you knew" twists, so I found this disappointing, and it seems like the opportunity to tell this story has passed. It's doubly frustrating now that they've utterly negated what happened in the Ruby flashback, which was about her deciding not to be a part of the pack and to choose her own family, by having her use a magic bean to go in search of her pack. I have this suspicion that they actually forgot that Ruby was back in Storybrooke with curse 2 when they wrote the newer episode and had already booked the actress, so when someone pointed that out, they had to frantically add a scene to handwave an explanation that wouldn't change the rest of the episode.

 

But speaking of negating things, 4B was already really bad and silly, but it's even worse when you consider what followed it. We had an entire arc centered around the idea that poor Regina always got the short end of the stick and couldn't get the happy ending she deserved. It wasn't just her own crazy idea that the other characters disagreed with. They weren't even humoring her and hoping she'd figure it out for herself. They honestly believed that finding the Author to rewrite things so Regina could get everything she wanted was a great plan. No one even questioned the idea that Regina's life was all that bad or that no one has an "ending," happy or otherwise, until the end. Snow and David even chose to keep that door page, in spite of knowing that Rumple was seeking it for a scheme that required filling their daughter with darkness, because they couldn't deny Regina her happy ending.

 

And then they followed that story with an arc in which Emma makes a grand sacrifice and is rewarded for it by being psychologically tortured, having to watch the man she loves die multiple times and having to kill him herself after he goes dark and threatens everyone. Meanwhile, while pretending to be the Savior, Regina gets a ball held in her honor, and when her boyfriend gets wounded, Emma is expected to put her soul on the line to save him, and Regina gets out of paying any price for saving him from death by everyone holding hands and standing together.

 

All that makes it really hard not to throw up every time anyone says anything about "villains don't get happy endings" or anyone acts like Regina has been horribly wronged because her life isn't exactly the way she wants it (this week) after she quit murdering people a year or so ago. And it's especially galling that no one has the self awareness to realize this. They can see all the stuff Emma is going through because she did something good -- and it's not even undoing her own evil deed -- and no one seems to consider that all that "villains don't get happy endings" stuff is nonsense because Regina's life is about 1,000 times better than Emma's.

 

I think if I tried to rewatch 4B right now, I'd throw things at the TV.

[KingOfHearts]

I noticed a small parallel between Child of the Moon and Lily. Charming holds a gun at King George on the ground, much like Emma did to Lily. He does it because George threatened his family, just as Lily did. I don't think A&E even intended that, but I always like it when Emma follows in her father's footsteps. And now that I think about it, Snow pointed an arrow at Regina in The Evil Queen as well. The Charmings must have a thing for sparing their enemies.

Edited January 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I don't know how dependable this is, but apparently, this was the script for the scene in 4.11 where Emma returns Hook's heart.

 

IMO, it doesn't really improve the scene, because it just proves that Emma ran after Regina the minute after shoving Hook's heart into his chest. Still peeved.

 

The person's tumblr has more script bits. I haven't check them all out yet.

 

ETA: The post disappeared, but I had reblogged it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rumsy4

[october]

What they could've done with that scene is have Emma wander into Granny's not knowing Regina was there. It's awkward for a second before Regina asks why Emma is there and not with her pirate after what happened. Emma replies that he's sleeping off the ordeal and she's come out to get them some food before he wakes up. Then as she's waiting for Granny to finish their order she asks Regina if she'd like a drink. Then the scene plays out as before with them having shots and Henry running in.

 

It doesn't solve all of the complaints about this sequence of course and it still means we only got a very short CS scene. However, it does give us on-screen confirmation that Emma is giving Hook the after-care he needs and that she didn't run off to coddle Regina. A few small changes and extra bits of dialogue could've made all the difference.

 

I read another bit of script on that person's Tumblr; this one from Enter the Dragon where Snowing and Emma are talking about Regina going undercover:

 

Charming: She knows that that woman is capable of. She's roasted whole villages. Killed countless innocent people...

 

No wonder they apparently cut this line. I got so confused reading it because I lost track of whether they were talking about Mal or Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

Near death experience vs saying good bye to someone because they have a wife....

4x11 was a horrible episode, but that 20 seconds in the hallway by the bathroom was all kinds of messed up. After seeing the finale, I sort of get why, but there are so many ways they could have done this. But Hook gave Emma his blessing, so I guess that makes it okay.

She could've said she'd rather stay with him, and he would've replied something like "she looks like she needs a friend, and I'll be in my room." Or I'll go get us dinner while you talk to her.

Or Regina could've asked Emma how her boyfriend was doing because that's what friends do, and Emma could've replied that he's fast asleep, or something.

[Camera One]

Regina comes in.  Hook follows Emma's gaze.  "Gets it".  LOL!  Every character on this show is just so in touch with their sympathy for Regina.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Camera One

[RadioGirl27]

There is nothing in those few lines that were cut that makes the scene better. 

[Curio]

I've been taking a bit of a break from the Internet in general over the holidays/new year, so I haven't posted much on these forums the past few weeks. But holy shit, that stupid scene from 4x11 is the one topic that will always get my fingers furiously typing again. If that truly is the real script and not a fan edit, I'm pissed they cut out 10 seconds that would have helped the pace of the episode. Sure, there's still the huge issue of Emma not putting Hook's heart back in his chest right away in the clock tower where it actually made sense in the story, or the fact that she still wanted to coddle Regina because the Operation Dumbass plot called for it, but I'd much rather see Hook give permission to ditch him than the random jump cut we got on screen. I also can't believe that this fake conversation I posted when the episode originally aired is depressingly accurate:

 

Hook: I told you, Swan. I'm a survivor.
Emma: Well I'm glad you have your heart back. How does it feel?
Hook: Where do I even begin? It feels like--
Emma: --Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Are you seeing this?
Hook: What?
Emma: Over at the counter. Is that Regina?
Hook: Yes, I suppose so. As I was saying--
Emma: --She looks so depressed. This is all my fault. If I hadn't brought Marian back from the past, none of this would have happened.
Hook: Emma, I thought we cleared this up a couple episodes ago. You did nothing wrong by saving an innocent person's life!
Emma: I feel like I should go cheer her up.
Hook: What, now?
Emma: She just broke up with Robin. I can't even imagine what it must feel like to lose someone you care about, especially someone you were just forming a romantic relationship with, possibly forever.
Hook: ...
Emma: She's definitely been through a lot the past couple of days.
Hook: ...
Emma: I mean, her heart was really invested in that relationship.
Hook: ...
Emma: I should probably go console her for a bit, make sure she's doing okay, ya know? Maybe I can get her mind off of everything with some hard liquor. That always seems to do the trick.
Hook: Yeah, I think I'm going to call it a night.
Emma: Already? It's only 8:20...
Hook: I'm going to bed.

 

Just replace the talking dialogue in that quote with the mental conversations Emma and Hook must have been having, and that's basically the scene. That was supposed to be a joke. I posted this sarcastic exchange immediately after the episode aired because I couldn't make sense of the horrible editing/writing choice. People in the episode thread told me there might have been a missing scene between the heart restoration and the Regina coddling, and that there was no way those two scenes could be immediately after each other. And yet, this is exactly what Adam & Eddy gave us on screen. TS;TW...

 

No wonder they apparently cut this line. I got so confused reading it because I lost track of whether they were talking about Mal or Regina.

 

The line got cut, but I'm sure the irony of the line applying to either Mal or Regina once again flew right over the writers' heads.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Oh, there's so much that's wrong about 4x11 in the context of the series that I probably don't have time to get into it right now.

 

If they held back on showing Emma's reaction to Hook's peril because they wanted to save it for the season finale, then that's bad writing. The fact is that it happened, whether or not we saw it. Emma had a reaction, even if we didn't see it. That reaction would affect the way she reacted to seeing his death(s) later. Not showing it doesn't mean it didn't happen and that they can save the big moment for later. When her biggest fear, as she stated, was losing someone else, and when she gave that as a reason for being afraid to get into a relationship, you can't then put the guy she forced herself to overcome that fear for in mortal peril and not show her reaction because you've got a bigger moment planned later. Really, showing the first reaction should have helped set up the second situation to show what's changed in their relationship. In 4x11, Hook was the guy she'd been dating for two weeks. He was someone she thought she could love, but she wasn't really in love with him yet. They'd had one date and had kissed a few times, but hadn't had the chance to spend that much time together. He was probably her closest friend and biggest support system, and that probably mattered more at that time than their romance. But really, the big issue was her fear that she'd lost every man she'd ever loved, and that was holding her back from letting her love. Seeing him in jeopardy at that time wouldn't have been about "I never told him I loved him." It would have been "OMG, I was right! Every man I get involved with has a target on his back!" But then he survived, and that might have been what reassured her that it was going to be okay, maybe this one was different. It was facing her biggest fear and getting through it. Then there were the six offscreen weeks and a few more weeks during the course of the next arc, during which she and Hook grew a lot closer and she did fall in love. So then she's going to react a different way when she sees him actually die right in front of her.

 

If they wanted to save all their big guns for the season finale, then why even have her find Hook in jeopardy? For all it mattered, she could have come across him later when everything was okay. Belle could have ordered Rumple to put the heart back before poofing away, then Emma could have learned about it all after the fact rather than being confronted with it. If she didn't yet know what happened, it makes more sense for her to be consoling Regina. Or they could have done the heart return scene in the clock tower in the immediate aftermath, and cut later to Emma showing up at Granny's, maybe placing a to-go order for two as a hint that she's been looking after Hook.

 

This is yet another thing that looks totally ridiculous in retrospect after 5A -- Regina not only gets more coddling about her boyfriend of no more than two weeks (and more of that off than on) going back to his wife than Hook gets for nearly being killed, but also more than Emma gets for having to kill her boyfriend of several months after having spent six weeks as the Dark One due to sacrificing herself. They built up the Marian return as some kind of grand tragedy, then went on to write an entire arc that was a much bigger tragedy but that was given more or less equal treatment in tragic terms, from the way other characters reacted. Everyone acted far more concerned about Regina's happy ending and took more action to get it for her than they did about Emma having taken on the Darkness and ending up having to sacrifice the man she loved.

[YaddaYadda]

I need to complain about something. One of the scripts that was released was from 4x14, when Emma arrives at her parents, and asks them why they didn't tell her before that Regina was missing (this is when Snow asks Regina to go undercover to see what those inept queens were up to).

 

There's this in the script that didn't make it to the screen;

 

 

 

Mary Margaret: But you were over at Hook's, I didn't want to...

 

Which basically is happening on the heels of the argument Hook and Emma had during the day over him lying to Emma about his past with Ursula. And then they had the nice discussion, and we see them walking down the very empty streets of SB, smiling, and laughing.

 

My bitch isn't about the dialogue being cut, because we can all assume whatever we want from that scene, and Emma showing up at the loft as though she hadn't seen her parents since she left them the previous night.

 

My problem is with Adam's reply when he was asked about it. 

 

This looks like an early draft of the scene. We changed it because it was too flippant of an attitude given the dire situation

 

Here's my problem with this reply. In 4x08, Emma's magic went to the shits, and Regina was off with Robin (playing grab ass in the crypt) while everyone else was out all night looking for Emma because they were really worried about her. Then when she was out on the search party in the evening, and got a call or text from Robin, and Mary Margaret gave her her blessing to go to Robin after the whole cringeworthy discussion about cheating, and how it's not cheating, and so on.

 

Isn't this flippant too? If I put it in the Adam's context, this is actually worst than a stupid line about where Emma spent the night.

 

[/rant]

Edited January 9, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[RadioGirl27]

I was going to post a similar rant YaddaYadda. It's so ridiculous, but, I guess that from Adam's perspective it makes sense, we are talking about Regina, and everything about her is always more for this writers (more important, more interesting, more exciting...).

Edited January 9, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

I was going to post a similar rant YaddaYadda. It's so ridiculous, but, I guess that from Adam's perspective it makes sense, we are talking about Regina.

 

But see, for me, this isn't about Regina. And I'm not hating on Regina for this. I don't even remember where Regina was in 4x07. This is how little I've come to pay attention to her whereabouts. Or I know what she's doing, then I forget about it.

 

It's his choice of words that really bothers me. 

 

So a line that explains where Emma was during a possible crisis, or Robin grabbing Regina's ass before they go for round two during an actual crisis where Emma is missing, and Henry is getting his ass blasted by magic she can't control.

 

It's like dude, seriously...

Edited January 9, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

This looks like an early draft of the scene. We changed it because it was too flippant of an attitude given the dire situation

Here's my problem with this reply. In 4x08, Emma's magic went to the shits, and Regina was off with Robin (playing grab ass in the crypt) while everyone else was out all night looking for Emma because they were really worried about her. Then when she was out on the search party in the evening, and got a call or text from Robin, and Mary Margaret gave her her blessing to go to Robin after the whole cringeworthy discussion about cheating, and how it's not cheating, and so on.

 

Isn't this flippant too? If I put it in the Adam's context, this is actually worst than a stupid line about where Emma spent the night.

 

Responding in the writers thread.

[KAOS Agent]

 

They built up the Marian return as some kind of grand tragedy, then went on to write an entire arc that was a much bigger tragedy but that was given more or less equal treatment in tragic terms, from the way other characters reacted. Everyone acted far more concerned about Regina's happy ending and took more action to get it for her than they did about Emma having taken on the Darkness and ending up having to sacrifice the man she loved.

 

This is why I can't handle Regina's storylines. Regina herself doesn't generally bother me. I can find her entertaining and fun and I think it's totally in her character when everything is about her. Where I have issues is when the show makes everyone else care more about Regina's issues than anything else. All of the characters on the show have terrible things happen to them, but somehow Regina's are just so much worse than anyone else's. Regina loses her boyfriend of two weeks and that's kind of sad, so a bit of cheering up/alcoholic commiseration is appropriate. However, this occurred at the exact same time that Hook was enslaved, tortured and almost murdered. You tell me who I should be most concerned about at the moment. Add in the fact that Hook is Emma's boyfriend while Regina is her sometimes friend and I'm even more confused about why Regina is the one who's somehow more in need of comfort than Hook. Why couldn't Snow help Regina with her lost love?

 

In 4B, we saw the egregious moment where Snowing decided that Regina's happiness was more important than their own daughter. They know Rumpel wants the page with the door on it and plans to fill Emma's heart with Darkness forever, but they can't destroy the page because Regina might not be happy. What the hell, show? Beyond the fact that the book was not in any way responsible for Regina's happiness or her past choices and everyone should damn well know that, what's more important, your daughter's health and safety or the perceived happiness of the woman who destroyed your family's lives and stole your happiness. Regina's boyfriend or Emma's life? Hmm. 

 

I don't even want to think about the adultery approving leisurely stroll Snow & Regina were taking while Emma's life was in danger during her magic removal plan. Regina's life and problems are always given way more weight than others' much more dire predicaments. Even when Robin was lied to and raped by Zelena, the show focused everything on how it affected Regina while Robin was almost completely ignored. Somehow Regina was the bigger victim than Robin. If Regina's problems were equally serious, I could understand it, but her problems do not compare to the rape, torture and death others are experiencing and that's why it's just so incredibly frustrating to watch.

[KingOfHearts]

5A made me wonder why I'm still watching. I just could not get into what was happening. Only three things really grabbed me - Light/Gray Swan, Guinevere (weird, right?) and Zelena. Merlin, Nimue, Arthur and Merida were all very "meh" to me. Most of the time it was as if I wasn't even watching Once. Probably because it was all fantasy shenanigans with very little realistic drama. Even the Captain Swan angst was very manufactured and magic-related. Their conflict was based on magical darkness instead of organic reactions.

4B killed a lot of momentum for me and 5A gave me the impression the story depth was coming back. But for what was revealed, more mystery shrouded. I still have plenty of questions about Dark One mythology and Camelot. Even the promises we had about exploring Emma's psyche remained empty. Are her issues really 80% Hook, 10% Henry, 9% Regina and 1% her parents? Dark Swan spent more time feeding Zelena labor-inducing onions rings than she did talking to Snowing. But I guess it wasn't really about Emma at all - it was about briefly seeing Camelot and Merida, then going full-force into Dark Hook.

I'm really uninterested in the storylines they're going through, since most of them we've already seen a dozen times.

Edited January 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts