A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

It's as though just trying to be good is actually a bad thing because it means you think you're better than other people, and that means you need to be taken down a peg

 

I wonder if that's the reason why A&E think it would be enjoyable for the audience watch Snow and Charming being idiotic and falling for every trick in the book. Because viewers would enjoy the satisfaction of watching these sanctimonious hypocritical goody-two-shoes dig themselves into a hole that they can't get out of?  Anticipating the inevitable blow-up in their faces?  As I said in the episode thread, this is a constant feeling you get when watching soap operas, where characters do stupid stuff and make stupid mistakes and it just spirals, until the big climax, and then everything is reset and they make their next big mistake.

[Camera One]

From the speculation without spoilers thread:

I'm assuming the Author told [August] about the book.  Did the Author also tell him where to find Emma?  Or did he manage doing that on his motorcycle?  And the type writer?  

 

I find that for a plot that we've known would be explored since season 1, they haven't done such a bang up job setting things up.  They haven't really dropped any hints to revisit that I can think of.

 

The one thing I do appreciate about this show is they couldn't care less about throwing some obscure character like August back in with nary an explanation.  I'm glad the writers aren't afraid to do this for fear of confusing people who might not remember stuff or are tuning in for the first time.  That is one good thing they are taking advantage of, in terms of being a serialized show.  Though I do find it ironic they throw in Pinocchio willy nilly, but feel the need to re-explain the whole concept of Happy Endings, the Author, Heroes and Villains ad nauseum.

[YaddaYadda]

Though I do find it ironic they throw in Pinocchio willy nilly, but feel the need to re-explain the whole concept of Happy Endings, the Author, Heroes and Villains ad nauseum.

 

Yeah, I still don't know what a Happy Ending is.  

[Camera One]

It's what you have when Snow and her ilk don't ruin your life.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Yeah, I still don't know what a Happy Ending is.

 

Because I drunk watch the show, I have a really hard time keeping my mind out of the gutter whenever Regina talks about not getting her happy ending.

[Shanna Marie]

Because I drunk watch the show, I have a really hard time keeping my mind out of the gutter whenever Regina talks about not getting her happy ending.

So you're saying all she really needs is to find a different masseur?

 

The plot gets even sillier when you compare her to the other characters:

Regina, former villain -- has position as mayor, lives in a mansion, drives a Mercedes, has her former victims begging to be her friend and coming at her beck and call to help her in her quest, has adopted son who doesn't care about her past, lost her boyfriend when he had to stay with his wife.

Marian, hero -- thrown into a dungeon and scheduled for execution, but rescued and brought to the future to be reunited with her husband and son, only to learn that her husband was dating the woman who planned to execute her, frozen by curse, revived and learned her husband had really moved on while she was out, curse returned, forced to leave town to go out into a strange world with a husband who had to be talked into it because he would have preferred to stay with his new lover. Now forever exiled from her world and from everything familiar.

Robin, hero (hah!) -- Has to leave his girlfriend to stay with his wife in a strange world so his wife won't be all alone in the only place she can stay alive.

Rumple, villain -- exiled from town by his wife to a place where his powers don't work

Belle, hero -- caught her husband about to crush a man's heart, learned that he'd been lying to her since the start of their marriage and was plotting behind her back, had to exile him from town, now working with a former enemy

Hook, former villain -- has Emma's love, but had to give up everything he owned to be with her, now doesn't seem to have a job or a real home, people in town are only just starting to trust him, was nearly killed by Rumple, wracked with guilt for his part in Rumple's latest scheme, even though it was against his will.

 

There is no clear-cut hero/villain pattern for current life status, and Regina's is by far not the worst. Most of the heroes are in worse shape than she is, so why is she wanting to petition for a heroic outcome?

[KAOS Agent]

There is no clear-cut hero/villain pattern for current life status, and Regina's is by far not the worst. Most of the heroes are in worse shape than she is, so why is she wanting to petition for a heroic outcome?

 

Because according to the writers, Regina is the character who has gotten the shortest end of the stick. I really wish someone would follow up on this statement with them by laying out the current status of the other characters and asking them to explain their thinking. It's always very clear that they have a huge Regina bias, but I wonder if they really don't see how skewed their story is because of it.

 

Oh Regina is so sad because her boyfriend is gone. It's her punishment or whatever, but we'll just ignore that Marian, Robin & Roland are all stuck in a strange land and the adults in that relationship know that Robin is only there out of duty. In this case, I actually think Regina came out better than the "heroes". This circles all the way back to the price of the curse reverse in "Going Home" where Regina stated that the price was hers to pay and that was losing Henry. While that's true for Regina, every other character was paying that price as well. The "heroes" were stripped of their happy ending too. One of the things we like to bash Snow for is her complete lack of interest in returning to her daughter while Regina has endless scenes mourning the loss of Henry. The narrative focus is so strongly set on Regina that it hurts other characters, but it also covers up the part where the heroes are screwed over. Even in the 4A finale, Regina was lamenting her lack of happy ending and cheered by the idea that Rumpel (the villain) lost his. However, there is zero acknowledgement that Belle lost hers as well. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

This circles all the way back to the price of the curse reverse in "Going Home" where Regina stated that the price was hers to pay and that was losing Henry. While that's true for Regina, every other character was paying that price as well. The "heroes" were stripped of their happy ending too.

 

This will never, ever be said enough imo.  I will never understand why Regina's price is everyone else's price.  I really don't give a fig that they all lived in the castle together and put their differences aside.  If I were Emma's parents, I'd be pissed as hell that I'm losing out on being with my child after missing out on 28 years.  And if I'm Neal, I'm fucking upset that this is not only taking me back to the Enchanted Forest and taking me away from my son.  And if I'm Hook, I'm pissed that my first opportunity at real happiness in the last 200 some years is being snuffed away.  Never mind that neither him or Neal were brought with the curse at all.  And if I'm Emma well...devastated doesn't even begin to explain it.

 

When Regina has to pay for something, everyone pays with her.  

 

Even in the 4A finale, Regina was lamenting her lack of happy ending and cheered by the idea that Rumpel (the villain) lost his. However, there is zero acknowledgement that Belle lost hers as well.

I find it cold that no one acknowledged that she sacrificed her happy ending to basically save the town from Rumple.  She didn't have to do it.  She had the real dagger in hand, she could have said a number of things to him.  She could have ordered him to never use magic again, to never threaten the people of Storybrooke again, to never look or speak to anyone again...but she banished him to a world where she knew he would be vulnerable (not that he was since he apparently managed to grow a pair).  Let's toast with shots and go find the Author.  This is why I don't have a hard time believing Rumple will fuck everyone's happy endings over eventually.

[Rumsy4]

Because I drunk watch the show, I have a really hard time keeping my mind out of the gutter whenever Regina talks about not getting her happy ending.

Every time someone says "Happy Ending" in the show, Lydia's crazy laugh in episode 69 of the Lizzie Bennet Diaries pops into my mind.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Besides the way this show has blown through "Disney" tales and used them as throwaway characters mean they now have a very short supply of Disney material to work with.

The Disney characters they already have could have so much potential for interesting drama if they would just flesh them out more. Pregnant teen Cinderella making it work with her husband? Jiminy seeing Gepetto's parents and feeling guilty? Mulan fitting in with the Merry Men? Heck, let's bring Gaston back and see his reaction to Rumpbelle. I'd rather watch all that than Witch No. 78.

Edited March 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

So true.  And look what happens when they DO bring back Disney characters with huge potential, like Maleficent currently.  They churn out a throw-away like "Enter the Dragon".  Where were the people who managed to adapt Frozen to Once in a satisfying way?  It seems like they evaporated.  Instead of conceiving a quality story for Maleficent and the characters in the Sleeping Beauty story, the entire flashback was tailored to Regina.  I think that was where it failed.  

[RadioGirl27]

 

Where were the people who managed to adapt Frozen to Once in a satisfying way?  It seems like they evaporated.

Well, they came with Frozen and they left when Elsa, Anna and Kristoff left. Disney sent people to keep an eye on everything Frozen-related. I think even John Lasseter went to Vancouver at some point.

[Serena]

Yup, and I'm pretty sure they had a complete veto for any Frozen characters to interact with Regina. If they hadn't, you think their favourite wouldn't have been all over their shiny new toys?

[Zuleikha]

What is the source for the supervision of the Frozen storyline? I've been trying to dig up articles about it and coming up empty.

[regularlyleaded]

What is the source for the supervision of the Frozen storyline? I've been trying to dig up articles about it and coming up empty.

It was said by Paul Lee, the ABC Entertainment Group pres, at the Television Critics Association panel last year. Here's one article that briefly talks about it. Other sites, such as TVline.com, posted articles about the panel interview, as well. You'd have to dig on their site to find those articles as I don't presently have links. But either way, Lee says it point blank, there was intense Disney oversight into the whole process of having Frozen on OUAT.

[scarynikki12]

I'm rewatching the season 1 finale and Rumpel flat out says, "when I created the Dark Curse", so I don't know why we're getting an implied retcon from the 4B premiere.  There's still a chance that it was somehow taken from him and placed with Chernabog, though it would make him seem even lamer if he managed to miss a million ways to get to the Land Without Magic AND lost his grip on his big solution once he came up with it. 

 

Also, and I freely admit to going back and forth on my opinion on this matter, I'm leaning toward wishing that Regina's big issue with Snow really was not liking that she was considered more beautiful.  I think that holding a ten year old responsible for a murder that someone else committed is perfectly in character for Regina, but it had the nasty side effect of giving so many a more "valid" reason to see her as the wronged party.  If Regina hated Snow because she was considered more beautiful, I think even the most devoted viewer would have a hard time defending it and the current story could be in a different place right now. 

 

I do think that this alternative would need to be fleshed out, for example:

 

Cora's abuse of Regina would be so severe that she grew up thinking that her beauty was the only thing she could offer to the world, to the point that she actually had kings and princes fighting for her hand in marriage so that they could brag about the new trophy queen, with Leopold winning out by being the richest and most powerful.  Regina would have to be somewhat happy with him in the early years of the marriage, due to his kindness on top of his wealth and power, but then it starts to unravel for her when Snow hits her teenage years and all the princes start courting her, the poets who had routinely showed up to recite sonnets to Regina's beauty now ignore her in favor of Snow, with Cora over her shoulder reminding her that this is her only source of value and berating her for failing.  Cue Regina then behaving the way she did in series, by arranging Leopold's murder, hunting Snow for years, then casting the Curse to "punish" everyone and so on.  It's in Regina's nature to be so petty about non-existent slights that I can absolutely believe that she'd end up casting a horrible curse over an entire realm just because she wasn't considered the most beautiful anymore.

 

I would also have been fine with Mayor Mills being a product of the curse.  I can easily see Rumpel leading her to believe that she'd be immune to the curse but double crossing her in the end.  After all, Rumpel not wanting anyone to know the truth before he does is very much in character.  Since Rumpel got his memories back when he heard Emma say her name I think that Regina could easily have gotten her memories back early on as well.  Hers could have been saved for November sweeps, by having her find the book for the first time, pick it up, and the memories come flooding back.  It could even have been a thing where the Evil Queen was the one in charge when Graham was killed, but an internal fight resulted in Mayor Mills taking back the body and keeping the Evil Queen at bay.  This, incidentally, would be a far more plausible reason to not kill her in the season 2 premiere and also lead into David's speech about We Are Both.  I can see Snow feeling pity for Mayor Mills and pleading her case with everyone agreeing with a provision that they'll pull out the torches if the Evil Queen returns.  Cora's return could also see a return of the internal battle between Mayor Mills and the Evil Queen and the victor could actually be Regina.  Regina would have the best qualities of both: Mayor Mills' snark, stubbornness, and strategic thinking and the Evil Queen's magic abilities.  Regina winning out would remove the hate for Snow White and the murderous impulses and give the heroes a valuable ally against their magical foes.  I would also make Cora's death the event that lets Regina win.  Let her kill her mother and take control of the two versions of herself.  That would remove a serious threat and avoid the Snow Has a Dark Spot story that never saw any follow through.

 

Also, I definitely believe that the show's change in attitude toward Regina happened after season 1.  Season 1 ended with magic coming to Storybrooke and it was presented as a terrible thing.  The music playing as Regina's evil expression awaits the return of her powers was meant to invoke dread, not celebration, yet season 2 was the beginning of setting up Regina to be viewed as a hero.  I think that the popularity of Lana was such that there was a fear that the ratings would tank if Regina wasn't moved front and center as a hero alongside Emma, and I fully believe this was a major mistake.  I'll argue that the reason the show was popular in the first place was because they struck the perfect balance between the villains (Regina, Mr. Gold) and the heroes (Emma, the Charmings) and built upon that basic conflict.  Now, to be fair, I do think that the criticism that season 1 came across as being Birth Parents=Real Parents was valid.  I don't think that was the intention but, as we would find out so often during seasons 2-4, the intention of the writers doesn't always translate to what the viewer sees.  I think we were supposed to see that Emma, who had been so hurt by life that her self esteem was in the toilet when it came to personal relationships, had started lowering those famous walls of hers and was able to admit that she loved Henry without reservation.  It was a big moment for her and broke two curses in the process but it also came across as the show viewing Regina's relationship with Henry as invalid.  In the finale, Gold even tells Regina that she isn't Henry's mother, Emma is, and I understand the context (he was needling Regina while making sure that Emma would be the one to retrieve the vial from Maleficent) but it really does come across badly.  So, on this particular point, I think the show needed to listen to criticism and try to improve.  The problem, of course, is that they shifted too far in the opposite direction and Henry's completely forgotten why he sought out Emma in the first place.

 

Finally, I have always been adamant that Blue is not a secret Big Bad.  In part because I haven't seen any actual evidence and in part because she just doesn't have enough screen time to warrant such a major story.  This season she's been in, what, two episodes?  No way does the show care enough about her to lay the foundation for her to be anything more than cannon fodder.  That said, I do think she should be a force to be reckoned with and I love her when Emma breaks the curse.  I love that fierce look in her eye, her head snapping around toward Regina and the threat that followed "If I were you, Your Majesty, I'd find a place to hide".  I really wish they hadn't sidelined the fairies as magical allies for the heroes.  I get that the show doesn't really care about them at the end of the day, hence them not being able to use their magic while all the villains run amok, but I would think they'd be able to kick some major magical ass if that final battle Rumpel mentioned in the pilot were to ever happen.

[Camera One]

I really like that alternate scenario.  That would have allowed more depth and quagmire with Regina.  And of course, if they didn't insist on making her a mass murderer.  

 

I'm leaning toward wishing that Regina's big issue with Snow really was not liking that she was considered more beautiful.

 

I was just thinking, with Regina being jealous of Snow's equestrian ribbons, we're already halfway to that level of ridiculousness.

 

That said, I do think Blue should be a force to be reckoned with and I love her when Emma breaks the curse.  I love that fierce look in her eye, her head snapping around toward Regina and the threat that followed "If I were you, Your Majesty, I'd find a place to hide".  I really wish they hadn't sidelined the fairies as magical allies for the heroes.

 

Me too.  I guess the show didn't want the Fairies to be a magical solution to everything, but they already allow the villains to have that, so why not the heroes?  And it isn't too difficult to limit their powers to a certain extent, and yet still have Blue impart important wisdom that the villains wouldn't think of.  She could have been like a Giles from "Buffy", or a Gandalf, or a Dumbledore, etc.  

[coops]

I would also have been fine with Mayor Mills being a product of the curse. I can easily see Rumpel leading her to believe that she'd be immune to the curse but double crossing her in the end. After all, Rumpel not wanting anyone to know the truth before he does is very much in character. Since Rumpel got his memories back when he heard Emma say her name I think that Regina could easily have gotten her memories back early on as well. Hers could have been saved for November sweeps, by having her find the book for the first time, pick it up, and the memories come flooding back. It could even have been a thing where the Evil Queen was the one in charge when Graham was killed, but an internal fight resulted in Mayor Mills taking back the body and keeping the Evil Queen at bay.

Also, I definitely believe that the show's change in attitude toward Regina happened after season 1. Season 1 ended with magic coming to Storybrooke and it was presented as a terrible thing. The music playing as Regina's evil expression awaits the return of her powers was meant to invoke dread, not celebration, yet season 2 was the beginning of setting up Regina to be viewed as a hero. I think that the popularity of Lana was such that there was a fear that the ratings would tank if Regina wasn't moved front and center as a hero alongside Emma, and I fully believe this was a major mistake. I'll argue that the reason the show was popular in the first place was because they struck the perfect balance between the villains (Regina, Mr. Gold) and the heroes (Emma, the Charmings) and built upon that basic conflict. Now, to be fair, I do think that the criticism that season 1 came across as being Birth Parents=Real Parents was valid. I don't think that was the intention but, as we would find out so often during seasons 2-4, the intention of the writers doesn't always translate to what the viewer sees. I think we were supposed to see that Emma, who had been so hurt by life that her self esteem was in the toilet when it came to personal relationships, had started lowering those famous walls of hers and was able to admit that she loved Henry without reservation. It was a big moment for her and broke two curses in the process but it also came across as the show viewing Regina's relationship with Henry as invalid. In the finale, Gold even tells Regina that she isn't Henry's mother, Emma is, and I understand the context (he was needling Regina while making sure that Emma would be the one to retrieve the vial from Maleficent) but it really does come across badly. So, on this particular point, I think the show needed to listen to criticism and try to improve. The problem, of course, is that they shifted too far in the opposite direction and Henry's completely forgotten why he sought out Emma in the first place.

I certainly agree that Mayor Mills should be a product of the curse and having her remember who she is early on would be be perfect; you would still get some of those great moments like Gold in the police cell with Regina trying to get him to say his name but at the same time you would have a woman who the characters would realistically end up becoming friends with once they realised the evil queen disappeared into Regina once the curse was cast. Regina, who has believed her whole life has been in our world, could be horrified once she remembers she was a murderer.

I have to say as a viewer in S1 I really wanted Henry to realise Regina loved him and see them form some kind of mother/son relationship. However the viewer is supposed to get what they NEED not what they WANT. What we needed was to see a journey towards this. Everything is hunky dory between Regina and the Charmings the whole time when the show should focus on how they get to that point. Right now it would be far more satisfying if it was Regina having to lie to Henry and the Charmings rather than Snow lying to Emma. Regina could look like she was on the road to genuine redemption but then be tempted by the QoD. She could be lying because she doesn't want her son to find out some of the awful things she did in the past. Instead they make Regina whiter than white by a) making the other characters do OOC things like lie... which would actually be IN character for Regina and b) bringing in other villians so Regina doesn't have to be one. An example of this is Rumple... look how easy Regina's journey to redemption has been compared to his!

[Serena]

The writers probably thought that with the "Snow couldn't keep a secret" they would make Regina's hatred of her more understandable, but I agree that having her be jealous of her beauty could have really worked. Snow White and the Huntsman was a really terrible movie, but I thought they portrayed the Queen's jealousy of Snow's beauty very symphatetically. I came out of it understanding her point of view, at least, unlike Regina when it's just like "you weirdo".

[Rumsy4]

The writers probably thought that with the "Snow couldn't keep a secret" they would make Regina's hatred of her more understandable...

 

If Snow had vindictively told Cora about Daniel, the extreme lengths Regina went to exact revenge would have been more understandable (even if still not justified). As it is, Regina comes across as unstable, petty, and plain evil. 

 

 

Instead they make Regina whiter than white by a) making the other characters do OOC things like lie...

 

Exactly! So far, Snow has been portrayed as someone who can't keep a secret. Even in Neverland, she was the one to blurt out to Emma that Neal was alive. But now, suddenly, she has been carrying a huge secret all these years, and is actively lying to Emma. What happened to the Snow who said, "I've never lied to her." The only explanation is that Snow has spent so much time coddling Regina that her morals have become ambivalent. Snow was cheering Regina's adultery a few weeks ago. And now, she is gaslighting her daughter (just like Regina used to gaslight Henry). What next? Mass murder? 

[HoodlumSheep]

I still can't understand how Regina could ever blame Snow for Stable boy's death. Does anyone really think the outcome would have been any different if Snow had kept her mouth shut?

There's a 99.9% chance that Cora still would have showed up at the stables even if Snow didn't tell her. You know why? Because she's mother freakin' Cora! And if they did escape, how long do you think it would have been before she found them? Five minutes?

[Shanna Marie]

There's a 99.9% chance that Cora still would have showed up at the stables even if Snow didn't tell her. You know why? Because she's mother freakin' Cora! And if they did escape, how long do you think it would have been before she found them? Five minutes?

We actually saw Cora catching Regina trying to escape, so it's pretty certain that Cora would have caught them even if Snow had said nothing. I'm not entirely convinced that Cora didn't already know and just manipulated Snow into telling so that Regina would blame her. After all, her plan was to get her family on the throne, and Snow stood in the way of Regina's child becoming king or queen. She therefore needed Regina to marry the king and for that inconvenient first child to be out of the way. If Regina hadn't banished Cora to Wonderland, either Cora would have goaded Regina into killing Snow or would have killed her herself.

 

It does seem like the narrative regarding Regina underwent a shift in mid season 2 (interestingly enough, right when the ratings tanked -- you'd think someone would have figured this out). I wonder if they're kicking themselves for having made it so clear-cut that Snow really wasn't in the wrong. If they wrote it now, they'd probably have had Snow tell out of spite. Instead, they're stuck with retconning the "I was such a brat" concept and repeating the stuff about Snow not being able to keep secrets while conveniently ignoring the rest of the story.

 

Then again, they wrote Outlaw Queen in just about the grossest way possible and seem to think they wrote an epic romance, so maybe they really do think they set up Regina's vendetta in a way that was complicated with shades of gray.

[Camera One]

I wonder if they're kicking themselves for having made it so clear-cut that Snow really wasn't in the wrong.

 

Well, they "fixed" that by giving Regina a legitimate beef with Snow for using her to kill Cora.  

[Zuleikha]

It does seem like the narrative regarding Regina underwent a shift in mid season 2 (interestingly enough, right when the ratings tanked -- you'd think someone would have figured this out).

 

You mean when they backslid Regina by having her ally with her evil mother against Storybrooke instead of continuing the redemption arc they'd been developing? I think they did figure out that flip-flopping Regina between striving for redemption and clear-cut villain wasn't working for the show and that's why they stopped doing it. 

 

 

 

I still can't understand how Regina could ever blame Snow for Stable boy's death.

Regina blamed Snow because Regina was an abused child who was powerless to act against her abuser. She sublimated her pain into anger at the one person she did have some control over. Also, remember that Regina chose to walk away from Leopold and Snow multiple times after Daniel's death, but she was first physically blocked by Cora and then emotionally by Rumple, who used her pain and desperation to manipulate her towards evil, all so that she would become both corrupt and miserable enough to cast his stupid curse. Even when Regina was so desperate that she tried to kill herself, Tinkerbell blocked that (with good intentions, to be sure, but unfortunately without the experience that would have allowed her to succeed). 

 

I think the show did a good job at showing how cruel Cora was, and personally I think the show's been pretty clear about how irrational Regina's vendetta against Snow was as well as why Regina became that form of irrational. But I do think it's underplayed how horrible Rumple's machinations were as part of its general ambivalent attitude towards acknowledging the casual cruelty of Rumple's selfishness. I still burns me up that the show wrote Neal as forgiving Rumple when Rumple literally did nothing to show he understood what was wrong with his behavior that drove Baelfire to flee to a land without magic (on the contrary, all of Rumple's machinations only showed that Rumple didn't understand the issue.)

Edited March 18, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Shanna Marie]

You mean when they backslid Regina by having her ally with her evil mother against Storybrooke instead of continuing the redemption arc they'd been developing?

I think the real narrative shift was to Regina as the biggest victim who ever victimed -- the stuff that kicked off the "Woegina" nickname. Previously, she may have been duped by Rumple, but she was still going after what she wanted, unapologetically. She seemed to own her decisions. Then suddenly in mid season two they started portraying her as a suffering victim. It all seems to have started when Emma and Snow returned from the Enchanted Forest. The whole Charming family went off to dinner -- their first time ever to be together as a family, thanks to Regina's curse -- and the scene was framed as though to make them look like terrible, awful people for not inviting Regina. On the recent behind the scenes special, the writers were high-fiving themselves for this because they liked that some members of the audience hated on the Charmings for not inviting her. This was the woman who just recently was attempting to frame Snow for murder and who'd nearly killed Henry while trying to poison Emma, and then there was the whole curse issue. Even if she'd been somewhat helpful and good while Emma and Snow were gone, that initial reunion was not the time to start including her in the family.

 

And around that time, everything started to be framed to make Regina out to be the victim -- no one wanted to party with the woman who'd been torturing them for 28 years, she was framed for murder by her mother and falsely accused by the others. She slaughtered a village, but Snow was made to look like the real bad guy when she couldn't forgive Regina for the slaughter. We learned that Cora murdered Snow's mother to pave the way for Regina, and that was shown as almost as much a crime against Regina as it was Snow. Cora's killing (I hate to call it murder because it was to stop a killer) was painted as far worse for Regina than the deaths of both of Snow's parents were for Snow. We started getting close-ups of all the weepy eyes. It was like the writers were getting too deep into Regina's head and seeing the world the way she did, where that evil Snow was constantly doing one thing after another to ruin Regina's life, and Regina wasn't really responsible for any of her own bad deeds.

 

That, more than anything, was what halted Regina's redemption arc. And then after she came back from the backslide she was suddenly considered a hero, with no transition, really. In catering to their favorite character they really did her a disservice because this should have been an awesome story, and they completely botched it.

[coops]

I think Regina's storyline wouldnt have been such a mess had they changed the way she dealt with her former misdeeds. If she took responsibility and said 'I became a monster after my lover died because I trusted a 10 year with a secret' rather than 'I became a monster because a 10 year couldnt keep a secret' it wouldnt come across as the mess it is now. One of my favourite shows from my childhood was Xena and she had done terrible things just like Regina, the whole show was about Xena's redemption. The reason why it worked was because Xena (and the writers) never tried to blame any one else for Xena's past. She never felt sorry for herself but she felt terrible for what she had done, no matter what or who pushed her into that dark place to begin with.

[Camera One]

They haven't even gotten to the "feeling terrible for what she had done" part yet for Regina.  She has been a relatively decent person in the present-day but I don't see any deep regret or guilt.

[Zuleikha]

I think the real narrative shift was to Regina as the biggest victim who ever victimed -- the stuff that kicked off the "Woegina" nickname.

That's an interpretation of what the narrative did. It's not the only one. I would argue that the narrative never shifted. It's always portrayed Regina's evil as coming from a place of extreme pain. I first set down the Evil Regal path when Regina gave her speech about bringing the villains to a place where they could get their happy endings (or something similar) during her first attempt at casting the dark curse. We also got that in her pained speech with her father when he tried to convince her she could have a happy ending in the Enchanted Forest, and we definitely got a long look at Regina's tear filled eyes after she crushed her father's heart. When we got to "The Stable Boy," we learned more that let us know how horrible her childhood really was and why Snow's mistake was so costly for Regina, but it wasn't a significant shift. It was just the details that filled in the emotional truth we already knew, and in the S1 finale, Regina made her turn from antagonist to ally. Emma's love for Henry broke the curse, but Regina's love for Henry caused Regina to make the choice that Rumple couldn't: she chose Henry over power and helped Emma save Henry's life, knowing this would be at the cost of the curse and Regina's safety.

 

I also don't think the show has ever framed Regina as a bigger victim than other people. IMHO, the scene in the village was a tragedy because at that point, we knew Regina was not an inherently evil person and we were watching her on the verge of being reached and saved from a path that led to more misery, but because of her own actions, it didn't happen. I agree A&E wanted us to feel for Regina, but I don't think they wanted or expected anyone to view Snow as the bad guy. The show has invited us to cheer Snow and Charming's victories over Regina just as much as the show's invited us to feel for Regina. Regina's story is tragic because ultimately, Rumplestitskin and Cora won (in the Enchanted Forest) and were able to turn her into their tool. Her redemption in Storybrooke is so inspiring (to those of us inspired) because it shows someone coming back from what seems like a point of no return and reclaiming her self. 

 

And then after she came back from the backslide she was suddenly considered a hero, with no transition, really.

I think this is objectively false, though. In the Neverland arc, she starts off with killing the mermaid. Throughout the arc, she refers to herself as the villain, with her role in the group being the one who will do the dark but necessary deeds that the heroes can't. She does soften over the course of it, but it's not until the end of 3B that she first embraces an identity of a hero, and it's only with encouragement from Henry and Emma that she's changed. So the entire season was her transition from villain to hero. (as a sidenote, I would say Rumple was redeemed throughout S3 as well, but with much less justification than Regina. Henry and Emma pulled Regina back from the 2B brink and Regina had to intend to sacrifice her life to start her S3 journey. Rumple went from his Lacey behavior to intending to sacrifice himself in Neverland and then actually sacrificing himself in Storybrooke with no character justification that I saw.)

 

In catering to their favorite character they really did her a disservice because this should have been an awesome story, and they completely botched it.

I LOVE Regina's redemption story, so I obviously disagree that it was botched. From reading what people don't like about it, I suspect that if it had been done the way those who don't currently like it wanted, those of us who DO currently love it wouldn't. So I think it's more a case of not all stories resonate for all people. For example, Emma's story leaves me cold, but it's meaningful to a lot of other people.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Emma's love for Henry broke the curse, but Regina's love for Henry caused Regina to make the choice that Rumple couldn't: she chose Henry over power and helped Emma save Henry's life, knowing this would be at the cost of the curse and Regina's safety.

 

That is categorically untrue. Regina did not expect Emma's saving Henry to break the curse.

 

Here's the transcript from The Land Without Magic:

Emma: Henry… What’s going on?

Regina: No…

Henry: The curse. I think you broke it.

Mother Superior: That was true love’s kiss.

Regina: No, no…

 

She is very clearly not aware that Emma waking Henry from the sleeping curse would also end the Dark Curse. It's a beautiful interpretation that she sacrificed all for Henry, but it's canonically false. 

 

Truthfully, I don't really care about Regina's redemption or lack of it (whichever way anyone looks at it). What I am bothered by is the endless victim blaming. Snow should not be allowed to talk about what a brat she was because it implies she deserved what she got. She totally deserved to have her horse cursed because she was just flaunting her riding ability in Regina's face. Emma saves an innocent woman's life but sits back and takes a ridiculous amount of abuse from Regina because she deserved it for ruining Regina's life. No. Just no. That's the kind of shit that has to stop.

[Zuleikha]

She is very clearly not aware that Emma waking Henry from the sleeping curse would also end the Dark Curse.

 

I was actually referring to earlier in the episode when Regina finally admitted the truth to Emma and made the decision to help her for the sake of Henry. It's an interpretation; I wasn't trying to portray it as otherwise. I interpret it this way in part because of the way Lana delivered her lines, and in part because the episodes leading up established that Regina was panicking because she knew Emma was weakening the curse. IMHO, this is also reinforced by the scene in Mr. Gold's shop when he explains the connection between true love, Emma's Saviorness, and the curse ending. But I accept other interpretations as potentially valid. That was really my point; that a lot (but not all!) about Regina's personal journey comes down to how we interpret the scenes.

 

 

 

Snow should not be allowed to talk about what a brat she was because it implies she deserved what she got.

I think the point of that line was supposed to play into a general 4A theme of people being neither all bad nor all good, but I didn't like it either. Especially because Snow wasn't bratty at that point in her life; she was bratty earlier before she met Regina. I don't know if it's because I'm not binge watching anymore or if it's the usual decline of multi-season shows when new writers come in, but I don't think the character dialogue has felt as true in 4A and 4B.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Curio]

I don't know if it's because I'm not binge watching anymore or if it's the usual decline of multi-season shows when new writers come in, but I don't think the character dialogue has felt as true in 4A and 4B.

Unfortunately, you can't blame new writers for the bad dialogue because there hasn't been a huge shift in the writers room since the show began. There have been a few writer changes over the seasons here and there, but not enough to drastically change the dialogue. (Except for "Breaking Glass.")

 

I think this show is much better watched in a huge binge because 1) the slow in-show timeline pacing feels faster, and 2) you don't catch as many of the obvious writing plot holes and mistakes because you're going too fast to over analyze. I know once I caught up and started coming onto the boards more in Season 3, I realized I missed a whole ton of bad writing that totally flew over my head while I was binge watching to catch up.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Replying from Enter the Dragon episode thread:

 

I think that does contribute a lot to the sense of Woegina, St. Victimus. We see every tear she sheds, every ounce of pain, in minute detail, while no other character is allowed to react to anything.

You've hit the nail on the head I think.

 

* Return to EF. Instead of seeing Snow and Charming lament the loss of their daughter and grandson, we saw suicidal Regina sobbing over her own loss.

* Snow and Emma get back from EF. We get one line about Chimera, but no big reunion chatter. But we get to see Regina cry because she wasn't invited to dinner.

* Marian coming back to life. Instead of seeing how Robin and Roland react to it, or how Marian is dealing with the real world, we see Regina crying then proceeding to plot murder.

* Hook's heart retrieval. Instead of watching Captain Swan reacting to near death experiences, we see Regina drinking and whining about how miserable it is to do the right thing.

 

I like watching Regina, but I do not appreciate all the time given to watch her tears. It's boring and it gets her no sympathy. If anyone needs more references, here's a nifty little blog I found:

http://reasons-why-regina-is-crying.tumblr.com/

Edited March 19, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

One of my favourite shows from my childhood was Xena and she had done terrible things just like Regina, the whole show was about Xena's redemption. The reason why it worked was because Xena (and the writers) never tried to blame any one else for Xena's past. She never felt sorry for herself but she felt terrible for what she had done, no matter what or who pushed her into that dark place to begin with.

PREACH. I grew up watching Xena, and so these days with Regina, all I can do is roll my eyes at her grand "redemption story." It's like, every single thing the writers of Xena got right, the Once writers have gotten wrong wrong WRONG when it comes to Regina. She doesn't feel bad for her past misdeeds, she seems to expect a happy ending served up for her on a platter despite still being WAY in the red karma-wise, the show has bent over backwards to whitewash/retcon away/ignore/etc her evil instead of making her *actually* atone for it...Xena did far, far less evil and yet paid for it far, far more--and, crucially, never believed she was actually redeemed, which is the key thing imo.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about the whole redemption thing with Regina, and the comment Ursula or Cruella made about Regina taking the heart of everyone in a village.  They could have turned the show into a procedural.  Each episode, Regina, Henry, with the help of Emma, Snow and Charming help a Heart of Interest return to its rightful owner, with the limited clues stored in each vault drawer.  For this, they often need to consult their fairytale friends.

[Actionmage]

Regina would have to be somewhat happy with him in the early years of the marriage, due to his kindness on top of his wealth and power, but then it starts to unravel for her when Snow hits her teenage years and all the princes start courting her,...

 

I agree with your re-imagining. The show even sort of set  it up.  IIRC, over seasons 1 and 2, there were fairybacks that showed how assy Leopold was. That he would go on and on and on about the beloved and lovely late Queen and how much beautiful Snow was like her beautiful mom and blahblahblah leaving out your current beautiful wife cakes blahblahblah.

 

While I, myself, was curious as to how Snow really felt about her dad running off about Dead Mom when Regina's right there, we never heard or saw. Snow could have been a brat. She also could have been upset and tried to get her dad to stop, but he either didn't care or knew about Regina and her "lovers"/lovers and it was a very passive-aggressive payback.

 

The folks who wrote that/those scenes got their goal accomplished: I was feeling very sympathetic towards Regina and very pissed at Leopold. But then, the rest of the episode happened and my sympathy waned. I understand Regina's pain and why she does what she does. I do not agree with her though. So writer fail on that.

 

So I guess that's Lost Story Hook # 77,201,555?

 

and, crucially, never believed she was actually redeemed, which is the key thing imo.

 

Yes! Like calling yourself anything--it's not about what you call yourself, it what others call you. Which is why there was so much positive response to the Gepetto/ Regina scene last episode. Or at least part of it.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Actionmage

[KAOS Agent]

There's also this (also pulled from the episode thread):

 

We barely ever get the hero's perspective anymore on this show...The show isn't good at balancing between showing both the "hero" and "villain" perspectives equally, so the audience is skewed towards liking the villains more because their perspective is constantly pushed down our throats. The writers manipulate us into feeling bad for Regina because hers is literally the only perspective we get to see anymore.

 

One of the things that made this show so great was that it did start out giving everyone's point of view. We saw the evil doers do their thing and the consequences of those actions on the heroes. We saw the heroes cry. We saw them struggle. We saw their pain. It showed that what had happened was bad. They balanced this out by showing the villains' perspective. We saw their motivation and their struggle as well. It was well rounded. I liked all of the characters because I understood where everyone was coming from. When I saw both sides of a situation, I didn't feel like I was being manipulated about what I should support and it allowed me to care about all of the characters and draw my own conclusions.

 

Now, however, the perspective is so one sided and I'm well aware of how manipulated I'm being and the morality is so skewed that I have a hard time sympathizing like they want me to. In this latest episode, they not only refused to show us how the villains' actions affected their victims, but the focus on Regina instead of Maleficent actually harmed Maleficent's story. We learned nothing new about Regina (seriously boring retread other than the animal abuse. Awesome.) and Maleficent is just some cardboard cutout whose motives against the Royal Sleepers we still don't know. Where's the balance showing us the other side of the story? Hell, where's the balance of showing us the story at all? Once the Regina perspective starts harming the villains' stories, you know you've got a problem.

Edited March 19, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

One of the things that made this show so great was that it did start out giving everyone's point of view. We saw the evil doers do their thing and the consequences of those actions on the heroes. We saw the heroes cry. We saw them struggle. We saw their pain. It showed that what had happened was bad. They balanced this out by showing the villains' perspective. We saw their motivation and their struggle as well. It was well rounded. I liked all of the characters because I understood where everyone was coming from. When I saw both sides of a situation, I didn't feel like I was being manipulated about what I should support and it allowed me to care about all of the characters and draw my own conclusions.

 

Well said.  I think one of the reasons why 4A was better was because they had more of this balance.  In 4A, they introduced three major characters: Elsa, Anna, Snow Queen.  Two were heroes and one was a villain.  So it was less stilted right there, while this half-season, the three new major players are all villains. 

 

By telling the flashback stories of BOTH the heroes and the villains, 4A recaptured a little of that aspect of Season 1.  Elsa and Anna basically received what Snow and Charming originally had in Season 1, flashback stories not only told from the perspective of the heroes (showing a hero on a worthy quest of some sort), but they were also character stories revolved around the heroes' emotional mindset and struggles.  We saw a lot of Elsa and Anna on various journeys trying to do the right thing, dealing with emotions, insecurities, overcoming obstacles and being heroic, etc.  This was balanced with the Snow Queen and her story.

 

4B, Elsa and Anna are gone, and no one is taking the place of the heroes' story in the flashbacks.  On paper, I guess A&E could argue that "Unforgiven" was all about Snow and Charming.  But that episode was a journey of shame for Snow and Charming and the story subverted and undermined their base characters as setup for their convoluted and contrived plot rather than as a catalyst to truly explore their mindset and struggles.  "Darkness On The Edge of Town" and "Enter the Dragon" both had flashbacks for villains or based on villainry.  Without that hero-villain balance, we've had 3 subpar (arguably bad) episodes.  And I don't see that changing in the remainder of this half-season. 

 

Now, if this half-season had its focus on Aurora, Philip and Maleficent, that would have been different.  But can you imagine?  We would have had an episode with flashbacks containing solely Aurora and Philip, and their parents.  *shock*  Would that have been boring?  Maybe. It would certainly be more challenging to write than the unholy trio since they would need to dig deep to find out what issues those characters have yet to face.  They would have needed to plot out a half-season long narrative for the Aurora-Philip-parents-Maleficent backstory rather than piecemeal stuff for Maleficent, Ursula and Cruella.  But the difficulty is mostly because they used Aurora and Philip as throwaways before this point.  If they had been brand new characters, it might have worked, if they told both sides' stories like they did with Frozen.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Rhodri]

 

I was thinking about the whole redemption thing with Regina, and the comment Ursula or Cruella made about Regina taking the heart of everyone in a village.  They could have turned the show into a procedural.  Each episode, Regina, Henry, with the help of Emma, Snow and Charming help a Heart of Interest return to its rightful owner, with the limited clues stored in each vault drawer.  For this, they often need to consult their fairytale friends.

Camera One, I would pay real money to see that show!

I confess that I cheer when I see that OUAT has dropped in the ratings because when they know it is the last season and they don't have to stretch anything out or cater to new storylines and characters, I am hoping that they wrap up everyone's story in a satisfying way.  But I fear that the last episode will be Regina declaring she is finally happy and everyone cheering because her happiness is all that really matters.

[Curio]

But I fear that the last episode will be Regina declaring she is finally happy and everyone cheering because her happiness is all that really matters.

 

I swear to god, if we spend all of Season 4 on this stupid Operation Mongoose plot that's supposed to give Regina a happy ending and she still hasn't managed to find it this season so we have to spend yet another season searching for it? I might have to quit this show for good and stick to only watching Youtube clips of my favorite characters. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

while this half-season, the three new major players are all villains.

The Queens of Darkness came from A&E wanting to break the cycle of having a single Big Bad coming against the heroes, according to an interview. I haven't enjoyed the formula the past few arcs because it's gotten so predictable. However, I don't think tripling the villainy really changes it. Because of their choice, we were given three weaker characters instead of a full personality like Ingrid. None of them are particularly prominent outside their costumes. (except Cruella's snark) It's confusing and feels like a last ditch effort to grab attention through slapping iconic characters together.

 

A&E refuse to do anything risky and they love Regina, so it came up in their minds to clone Regina three times to "rock the boat". If they die or go to Offscreenville in the end, I count it as failure.

[Camera One]

However, I don't think tripling the villainy really changes it. Because of their choice, we were given three weaker characters instead of a full personality like Ingrid. None of them are particularly prominent outside their costumes. (except Cruella's snark) It's confusing and feels like a last ditch effort to grab attention through slapping iconic characters together.

 

The ironic thing is they spent all of 3B on a single villain, Zelena, and yet she still didn't have a full personality like Ingrid.  I think they found they found it difficult to come up with enough backstory for one villain (Zelena), so they decided to have three instead.  Yet, they seem not to realize that it's not the *amount* of screentime, but how it is used (eg. 4A gave Ingrid only 1/3 of the new-character flashback time since she had to share with Elsa and Anna, and yet it was enough to give Ingrid way more depth than Zelena had).   Plus, with 4B, just like with 3B, there is no Heroic flashback story to serve as balance.  

 

In 3B, the "lost year" flashbacks should have been the balance, but again, they were not the Elsa/Anna type of flashbacks where the heroes got character development.  Now, if 3B had gotten the 2 heroes and 1 villain treatment, let's say Dorothy/Glinda/Zelena, then Zelena wouldn't have been as overplayed, plus we could have gotten some worldbuilding in there.  The disadvantage to this is our regulars could get sidelined, but they were able to give Emma a prominent role in 4A by pairing her with Elsa, so they could have done the same in 3B with Emma/Dorothy (both dealing with and conceiving of what "home" was, maybe as they went on their quest through Oz...  maybe they both are in the house when the tornado hit and Emma actually becomes a teacher to Dorothy in terms of dealing with a magical land), or 4B with Snow/Briar Rose (dealing with their issues of self-blame or paranoia due to people always being after them and their children, or dealing with difficulties forging a relationship with an adult daughter who grew up without them).

Edited March 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The Queens of Darkness came from A&E wanting to break the cycle of having a single Big Bad coming against the heroes, according to an interview. I haven't enjoyed the formula the past few arcs because it's gotten so predictable. However, I don't think tripling the villainy really changes it.

I can't tell any difference in the formula, since we're hitting the usual beats of the good guys being mostly clueless to the fact that there's a threat, in spite of them knowing that the bad guys are in town, the good guys running around uselessly and accidentally helping the bad guys because everything they do to stop the bad guys ends up actually having been set up to get the bad guys what they want. It's pretty certain that they'll be mostly powerless until the last second, when something that was never set up swoops in to save the day. Yawn.

 

While I, myself, was curious as to how Snow really felt about her dad running off about Dead Mom when Regina's right there, we never heard or saw. Snow could have been a brat. She also could have been upset and tried to get her dad to stop, but he either didn't care or knew about Regina and her "lovers"/lovers and it was a very passive-aggressive payback.

That's one of those things where we only get Regina's perspective, though. We've never seen Snow's or Leopold's perspective on Regina and Leopold's marriage. A lot of time went by between the marriage and the genie incident where we saw Leopold running on about Dead Mom. What we've seen of that time is Regina running off for magic lessons, Regina staying behind while her husband and step-daughter toured the kingdom, and now Regina sulking because Snow won riding ribbons and then smirking because she cursed Snow's horse. If that's any indication of how she behaved toward them, I can imagine that by the time of the genie incident they may have just given up. Was Leopold always going on about Dead Mom, or did he ever try with Regina? Did he fall back on thinking fondly of his first marriage because he couldn't really love again or because his new wife kept a separate room and slammed the door in his face at night? How well did Regina hide her contempt for Snow? We haven't seen young Snow desperately trying to win Regina's affection, we haven't seen Leopold watching his daughter be rebuffed. We've had nothing at all of their perspective, which makes it difficult to judge the situation, and that's a big part of the problem.

 

And they're getting so villain-centric that it's getting creepy because the villain's victims aren't being treated like actual people with rights, desires and agency. They're just cannon fodder and pawns in the game, and how dare they get in the way of the villains' dreams? Aurora isn't treated like a person here. She exists only to allow Regina to help Mal get her evil groove back. In a weird way, it's like the writers are trying to turn the viewers into villains because we aren't supposed to care about other people any more than the villains do. You go, Mal! Way to get your curse on with that princess! Stupid Marian, being all alive and getting in the way of Regina's happiness.

[KAOS Agent]

As we've discussed before, sending the main characters on a positive quest would make for a nice change from moustache twirling villain arrives, no one does anything remotely useful until magical deus ex machina shows up and saves the day. Send Hook, David and Rumpel to a place where magic is wonky (ie Rumpel isn't all powerful) to retrieve something while Emma, Belle & Will go to Wonderland for something else and Outlaw Queen, Snow & Henry stay in Storybrooke fighting their own battle (maybe the barrier to the outside world is fading and occasionally strangers come into town). Bring back the issues from "The Outsider" with a magic hunter showing up minus the Home Office part.

It would nicely solve the problems they have with so many of their main characters having no more story left to tell. With three separate stories they could ditch the need for constant flashbacks. You'd also get a decent mixup of character interaction. This show needs to get out of the rut it's in and change it up.

[Zuleikha]

Yeah, I agree that would be a better change up than the Rumple-led Queens of Darkness, which doesn't feel like a change up at all. I don't know why the Author quest wasn't used that way. 4B didn't need new villains at all! The Author could be used to set up the divided quest outline and provide motivation/portals for traveling to different realms. Rumple could be the sole, known antagonist as he tries to find the Author to double down on his mistake with Belle. That also draws everyone into the story without everyone needing to be concerned about Regina's happiness or Snow/Charming needing to be retconned into having a guilty secret (as someone else pointed out, we saw them go through Glinda's portal of good (or was it pure?) hearts in the Missing Year). Rumple could have interactions with Robin/Marian in New York to avoid the "talking to hallucination Belle" problem.

 

I do wonder if some of their problem is just budget constraints. Maybe they don't have the budget to do multiple locations (although so much of EF is CGI... even if they can't afford to keep Rumple in New York, can it really be more expensive to return to Neverland or Wonderland or Oz than to the Enchanted Forest?). Also, some of the better received tertiary characters are on different shows now. Much as I'd love more Mulan, Jamie Chung's doesn't seem to be available. Tink was great, but Rose McIver is leading a new show. Sidney and Ruby are both gone. I don't know how much availability Aurora and Philip have, but maybe it's also limited. But maybe it's just idea fatigue. The show completed its initial story in S1 (which was NOT a mistake, IMHO), and the creative team is now on their third season of trying to figure out what else they can tell. I think it's easier for us to see possibilities because we're not spending our days enmeshed in story development.

[Camera One]

I think the writers find it easier to write for new characters with a blank slate, and on top of that, they find it easier to write for villains than for heroes.  I'm not convinced that the writers would write anything of substance for Mulan, Tink, Red, Sidney, Aurora, Philip, etc. even if they were available.  They brought back Ariel, and half the time, she was Zelena.  I mean, even Hook in this past episode was actually Rumple.

 

The first step in brainstorming should be possible ideas for the emotional journey for the main characters and where they should be headed next.  Instead, their focus is a "Wouldn't it be cool if..." directly related to plot, setting or new characters, and then they twist the original characters around to fit whatever surprise twist they want to force in.  What if The Wicked Witch went green with envy?  Okay... so let's make her jealous of.... Regina!   And she would be even more jealous if... she was Regina's long lost sister!  Let's have a flashback where she finds out what a great life Regina had.  Who can show her that?  How about... The Wizard!  And wouldn't it be cool if we find out near the end of the half-season that the actual Curse-Caster was... Snow?  Who would guess that!   [Cinderella's Mouse in Writer's Room: "Uh, why would she?  Isn't this the worst curse of all time?" ]  And what if she had to kill Charming?  But he doesn't die when she cuts her heart in two!  Twist of all twists!  

Edited March 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

The show completed its initial story in S1 (which was NOT a mistake, IMHO), and the creative team is now on their third season of trying to figure out what else they can tell. I think it's easier for us to see possibilities because we're not spending our days enmeshed in story development.

 

I agree that it's very easy to sit here and armchair-TV-write, but at the same time, I think if they hadn't felt the need to blow through so much plot and character development in the blink of an eye, they might not seem to be stretching so thin on ideas.

 

I think the aftermath of the curse should have been given far more attention than it was. I think both Neverland and Oz, if allowed the room to breathe and actually get into the mythology, could probably have been a season each. It's not so much the ideas that are the problem but the pacing and execution. Nothing happens in the middle of an arc and then an arc's worth of shit happens in the last two episodes. Character beats are skipped over in favor of zooming the plot from Point A to Point B to Point C, so the characters are constantly running around but they have no time to react to anything.

 

Like, even with the end of the Frozen arc ... how does Emma feel about Ingrid now? Does she still hate her? Is she angry? Is she sad for the time they did spend together when someone actually wanted her? We don't know because the show never saw fit to get into how Emma feels about it now that it's over and she knows the truth. And that's just one example. All that emotional development that would help these stories really resonate and help these characters actually be three-dimensional people who have emotions and feelings is skipped because it's onto the next plot.

 

I just wish the show would slow the hell down and delve into these stories on more than just the surface level. Go big or go home, you know? If you're going to take the story into Oz, let's freaking see Oz. Let's enmesh ourselves in Oz, let's let the characters go there, see it, feel it.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Zuleikha]

. I think both Neverland and Oz, if allowed the room to breathe and actually get into the mythology, could probably have been a season each. It's not so much the ideas that are the problem but the pacing and execution.

 

Yes, I agree with this. I feel like the Missing Year, in particular, really got shortchanged in 3B in a way that hurt the storytelling. I would have liked to have seen Snow/Charming/Neal try and fail to get back to Emma/Henry to set up the desperation that led Neal to revive Rumple and put an extra emotional layer into Snow/Charming's decision to cast the Dark Curse. I would have liked to see Regina be contrasted with them by her accepting the price of her magic and trying to move on, starting her relationship with Robin helping rebuild the kingdom. I still feel really confused about what happened in the Missing Year because it got dragged into the Zelena arc so quickly. 

[Curio]

From the Spoilers thread, but no spoilers:

[Hook]'s as much a former villain as Regina was (though on a lesser scale), but he doesn't seem to be feeling robbed by the universe. He seems to be pretty much okay with his current situation. He's happy and in love, and the only thing that seems to be making him unhappy is his frustration with not being able to do enough to help the people he wronged. I don't think he would change much of anything about his current life. He hasn't even said anything about missing the Jolly Roger. I'd guess he'd rather have Emma, and that was the trade he made.

 

I can't believe we're 14 episodes into this season (technically 15 if you count the two-parter as individual episodes) and Regina and Hook still haven't interacted with each other. I have to believe this separation is intentional by the writers at this point because I don't think the they want to touch that conversation with a ten foot pole. How could he convincingly encourage Regina to search for the author when he managed to find his happy ending by himself through hard work and self awareness? Why hasn't Regina asked Hook how he found happiness with Emma, but she asked Rumple about his happy ending with Belle in 4A? Does no one in town believe Hook has a happy ending right now, or has everyone just forgotten about his past sins? I honestly don't get it or any of this Operation Mongoose "logic."

Edited March 20, 2015 by Curio

[coops]

I think the aftermath of the curse should have been given far more attention than it was. I think both Neverland and Oz, if allowed the room to breathe and actually get into the mythology, could probably have been a season each. It's not so much the ideas that are the problem but the pacing and execution.

I just wish the show would slow the hell down and delve into these stories on more than just the surface level. Go big or go home, you know? If you're going to take the story into Oz, let's freaking see Oz. Let's enmesh ourselves in Oz, let's let the characters go there, see it, feel it.

100% hit the nail on the head! In each episode there always seems to be some slap dash fantasy element which totally lacks world building. Take the magical tree the QoD wanted the Charmings to seek out. I had zero interest in that tree because I knew it would be some 2 dimensional plot device that wouldn't be explored... and surprise surprise it had about 3 seconds of screen time before it delivered the gasp! cliffhanger- Snow is pregnant! Its a lot like the dark fairy's wand from season 3 or the magic compass from season 2... random plot devices thought up without any world building or mythology behind it. If a whole season had been devoted to Oz they could have really explored the mythology of ruby slippers, cyclones, witches etc. They could have focused on all the things people love about Oz in real depth but that seldom happens and instead everything seems to be some cheap way to get the plot to move from A to B.

I thought there was a real sense of irony that Zelena was 'green with envy' over the Evil Queen whose origins are rooted in jealousy. That was something that could have really been explored, the premise of the reason the wicked witch was green was because she was jealous of someone infamous for being jealous, but it was just one of the many tricks they ended up missing.

[Camera One]

I thought there was a real sense of irony that Zelena was 'green with envy' over the Evil Queen whose origins are rooted in jealousy. That was something that could have really been explored, the premise of the reason the wicked witch was green was because she was jealous of someone infamous for being jealous, but it was just one of the many tricks they ended up missing.

 

Maybe they're saving that for Season 7.  Tagline: Fifty Shades of Green.