A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Shanna Marie]

In reality on the show, the core reason was petty jealousy. Zelena's life wasn't even that terrible. Meh.

So, basically, Regina, round two. The revelation of the cause of Regina's beef with Snow was almost a Jump the Shark moment for me because it was so anticlimactically indirect and almost petty. Daniel's death may have been painful, but it's hardly the worst thing anyone on this show has gone through, and Snow's involvement with that was so very tangential. The "because I was prettier" reason actually would have made a lot more sense than this, especially if it had been expanded to include Snow being more beloved, so that Regina felt like a second-class citizen with her husband, with the court and with the people, that she'd never be loved as much as Snow. Then cursing the whole kingdom would have made a lot more sense.

 

I actually liked season 3 better than season 2, though, because it made more sense and was more coherent. There were writing flaws and storytelling gaps, and tons of missed opportunities (oh, what they could have done with the lost year, like actually give Neal real motivation to be such a raging idiot, actually build the Zelena threat to the point that there was a good reason to take drastic measures, etc.), but nowhere on the level of season two. I'm not sure I could even tell you what season 2 was supposed to be about, other than Hook being around to be devilishly handsome. There was no emotional payoff to the curse breaking, the wraith thing just vanished, there were no real consequences for Regina. I never figured out what Cora's motivation was supposed to be -- if her goal in life was to be a queen, then she had the opportunity to take over the kingdom and rule the people left behind by the curse. Why was she so eager to get to our world? She was the one who ditched Rumple, so why did she want revenge on him? She had some good reasons for revenge against Regina, except she seemed to want to play Darth Vader and team up with Regina to rule the world together as mother and daughter, or something like that. And then there was the threat of the outside world via Owen, only he wasn't really from the outside world, so there went that thread, and he was actually a victim who had a legitimate gripe. The whole "anti-magic" thing went nowhere. Plus this was the season that gave us the seriously screwed-up morality, with the spotted heart, Owen, village-massacring, Regina being a hero for stopping something she actually planned to use, and all that, not to mention the really disturbing Rumple/Belle relationship, with her learning about Milah and, as Lacey, seeing just how horrible he could be without her holding his reins, and that changed nothing.

 

At least the trip to Neverland gave them a chance to clear the boards from all that mess, and I know what the two parts of season three were about. The villains could be annoying and weren't perfect, but at least I knew for sure what they wanted and why they wanted it.

[Camera One]

Cora had some good reasons for revenge against Regina, except she seemed to want to play Darth Vader

 

I think you accidentally figured out Adam and Eddy's plans for Season 6.

[stealinghome]

Guys, it just occurred to me: remember when Snow said that "someone from another forest" taught her to shoot, way back in 'The Evil Queen'? Maybe that person was Marian.

 

I can't believe it took me this long to put the pieces together.

[Rumsy4]

So, apparently Zelena was in stasis like Cora and Hook, and that's why she did not age. https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/477181537616543744

 

 

she was in a protected realm a la Cora.  And in stasis.  As we established with Cora and Hook in s2.

 

It's so funny--Adam seems piqued it was even a question that needed to be explained. He still doesn't say whether she was in Coradome or in Oz.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

I just assumed Oz wasn't affected by the Dark Curse, and that Zelena's pendant kept her life.

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

It's so funny--Adam seems piqued it was even a question that needed to be explained.

Hee. Does that surprise you? "Dammit, those viewers just refuse to pay no attention to the plot holes behind the curtain! Must they insist on dragging all of them into the light of day and getting--that most horrid of horrid words--explanations for them???"

[Serena]

Guys, it just occurred to me: remember when Snow said that "someone from another forest" taught her to shoot, way back in 'The Evil Queen'? Maybe that person was Marian.

 

I can't believe it took me this long to put the pieces together.

I would love that, but did Snow recognize her in the finale?

[Geeni]

I think you accidentally figured out Adam and Eddy's plans for Season 6.

 

Not gonna lie, I'm actually waiting for them to do/ruin Star Wars somehow. You know they would.

[Camera One]

she was in a protected realm a la Cora.  And in stasis.  As we established with Cora and Hook in s2.

 

That explanation didn't even make sense.  What "protected realm"?  And he said, "as we established"?  Yeah with Cora and Hook, but what did Zelena have to do with it?  If Zelena was in the Cora Dome, why not just say so?  What does "a la Cora" mean?  "By" Cora?  "Like" Cora?  But if so, who put up the protected dome?  Zelena herself?  Oh right, since everyone and their granddaughter knows how to do that.  Except Blue, the most ancient power.  

Edited June 13, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

How can multiple realms be under the Cora-dome? We saw visibly the ground it covered. How it protected Oz, Wonderland and parts of the Enchanted Forest, I have no clue.

[InsertWordHere]

Alice also didn't age in her Victorian fantasy land. Honestly, I think the only explanation is that all realms were in stasis.

[Camera One]

That would be consistent with the Alice situation.  His answer was about as clear as mud.  And why even mention Cora and Hook, since they were in the Enchanted Forest.  So Oz and Victorian Novel World are "protected realms that stay in stasis"?  Just because?  Not a good sign when you need an explanation for an explanation.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

That explanation didn't even make sense.  What "protected realm"?  And he said, "as we established"?  Yeah with Cora and Hook, but what did Zelena have to do with it?  If Zelena was in the Cora Dome, why not just say so?  What does "a la Cora" mean?  "By" Cora?  "Like" Cora?  But if so, who put up the protected dome?  Zelena herself?  Oh right, since everyone and their granddaughter knows how to do that.  Except Blue, the most ancient power.  

Would that also mean that Zelena and Cora were in the same world for an extented period of time and Zelena never tried to reach out to her mother? What?

[KingOfHearts]

We visibly saw the Cora Dome only reaching a small region. Why and how would Cora protect multiple realms? I'm starting to believe the Cora Dome is just an umbrella solution for curse inconsistencies.

 

Another question: Why was she in the Enchanted Forest to cast her dome? Why not stay in Wonderland to protect her kingdom? The white rabbit could have taken her to Storybrooke.

Edited June 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FormerMod-a1]

As I understood it, the Cora dome only protected those from Fairytale Land/Enchanted Forest from being swept up into Storeybrook.  But those in the dome, and outside the dome were still in the not-quite-stasis/groundhog-day-ish existence.  I hadn't really thought about if the stasis had reached other realms, and I didn't watch OUAT in Wonderland, so I really don't know.  But after reading all this, it sounds like it did.

[Shanna Marie]

Another question: Why was she in the Enchanted Forest to cast her dome?

I'm hazy on the details, since it's been a while, but she returned from Wonderland before the curse. As I recall, Regina sent Hook to get her (kill her?), only Cora turned him and got him to get her back from Wonderland. The curse came later, when Cora was already in the Enchanted Forest. I don't think Cora had any idea that the curse was coming until she was already back.

[legaleagle53]

Cora was in the Enchanted Forest because Regina had expressly sent Hook there to assassinate her.  He failed to do so because (unbeknownst to everybody then) Cora had long ago removed her own heart and stored it someplace else.  Cora then decided to let Regina think that Hook had been successful in order to try to worm her way back into Regina's life.  Because Cora knew about the Dark Curse and what it would do, she took Hook with her and cast the protection counterspell that mitigated the effects of the Dark Curse so that she and everyone under the magic dome would be frozen in time but retain their memories and identities.  Once the curse was broken, Cora then plotted with Hook to get to Storybrooke where she knew Regina would welcome her help after being defeated by the breaking of the curse.

[stealinghome]

But those in the dome, and outside the dome were still in the not-quite-stasis/groundhog-day-ish existence.  I hadn't really thought about if the stasis had reached other realms, and I didn't watch OUAT in Wonderland, so I really don't know.  But after reading all this, it sounds like it did.

So what you're saying is that we were stuck in the 1980s for 28 years? No wonder that decade seemed so long! ;)

[kili]

only Cora turned him and got him to get her back from Wonderland

 

He didn't have much of a choice. She was holding his heart in her hand at the time and threatening to rip it out.

 

Cora then decided to let Regina think that Hook had been successful in order to try to worm her way back into Regina's life.

 

Wasn't Cora's original plan to kill Regina? But then Regina gave her "I love you Mom and that is why I had to kill you" speech and Cora instantly forgave her (on this show, who wouldn't?). Hook comes back a little surprised they are both still alive and Cora introduces her modified Get-back-in-Regina's-good-graces-scheme-and-yes-you-can-still-kill-Rumple plan to him

[myril]

They're writing is character driven (as they are saying), so seems in their view details of the plot are not that important to be thought all through, even if that means unleashing the species of blackplotholes, sucking in elements from other plots and of the overall story arc. Everything has to serve the character development, so decent world building is irrelevant.

 

Disregarding decent fictional world building as they do harms character driven story telling though. There has to be a basic structure, rules, a matrix in which the characters have to operate, exposing the conflicts and trouble and drama going on inside a character and between characters. The world has to limit powers and possibilities and consistently so, especially if it is a fantasy magical world, otherwise one can wonder more and more why they are not finding ways to use magic to make everyone live happy. But think most on here agree with that.

 

Likely Zelena was at the time Regina cast the Dark Curse in Oz. In my perception In OUaT lingo the word realm is often used equally to the word world and meaning another world, not another kingdom in the neighborhood. But, who knows, could be as well the case, we know nothing about the geography of the magical world, or worlds, or realms. Could be on different planes, or not, different dimensions, or not. Open for correction but think they use for different regions, spheres, domain, provinces inside one world more the term kingdom, like Eva is from the Northern Kingdom, not Northern Realm.

 

Protected - the Dark Curse Regina cast had not the full impact on it.  Zelena was not necessarily in the dome that Cora created but under a protection alike the dome Cora created for herself and Hook in the Enchanted Forest, keeping them from being taken to our world/realm, while the time was in a way stopped even for them. It was established with Cora's dome that not everyone from the magical lands was transported to Storybrooke, no more no less.  Neverland time works different anyway, no idea about Wonderland and fictional Victorian/Edwardian England because didn't pay much attention to Once Upon Wonderland. Guess it doesn't cause me much headaches because always assumed the Curse had impact to some degree on all worlds/realms with magic but maybe not in the same way as on the Enchanted Forest kingdoms.

 

And we can have additionally a long and as unsatisfying talk about how magic in OUaT works or not. Including what the differences are between Rumple's Dark Curse cast by Regina, Peter Pan's alternated version of the Dark Curse, stopped by destroying the scroll, and the now by Regina and Snow cast curse to bring them back to Storybrooke, why some were able to come to the Land Without Magic and others not.... I'll go and get some packages of painkillers for the headaches

 

Besides that there seem to be different ideas or understanding, what character driven is.

 

Funny, think in that tweet Adam was thinking way to complicate about the matter. It could be rather simple: different realms/worlds, different impact of the Dark Curse because the realms have the same basic rules of magic and are all affected by magic, but magic expresses in slightly different ways in every realm, that's why there are different realms/worlds. And Cora created a bubble of difference in the Enchanted Forest so the curse worked differently in that dome of hers as well. Even our more or less non-magical world was affected, but in a different way, it was adapted to make the existence of Storybrooke possible, but in a limited way, adapting if need be papers and connection, and the spot were the town is, so no one from our world in our world would stumble upon its existence. Sure not answering all questions of a scientific inquisitive mind but it gives a crude matrix to work with.

Edited June 13, 2014 by katusch

[stealinghome]

Wasn't Cora's original plan to kill Regina? But then Regina gave her "I love you Mom and that is why I had to kill you" speech and Cora instantly forgave her (on this show, who wouldn't?).

kili, I choked on my soda reading this. Bwah!

 

Any time the writers claim this show is "character drive," I roll my eyes so hard. Their noses must grow 500 feet every time they say it.

[KingOfHearts]

With so many plot holes, it's really not worth debating magic laws. It just flat out doesn't work.

 

Cora was in the Enchanted Forest because Regina had expressly sent Hook there to assassinate her.

Thanks. I forgot about that important detail.

 

 

Any time the writers claim this show is "character drive," I roll my eyes so hard.

 

Oh I know. With so much action/magic craziness going on, they can't even fit in a few more Emma/Snowing scenes. But Outlaw Queen gets flirting moments galore... go figure. It seriously feels more like a movie than a tv show - all action and instant romance, almost zero downtime. (Unless Henry driving down main street is considered downtime...)

Edited June 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

So, remember the favor David owes Rumple for the Dreamshade-curing elixr? I wonder if it will come back into play now that Neal is not there to keep Rumple on the leash, and Belle is (probably) going to dump him when she discoveres all?

[Mari]

Belle is (probably) going to dump him when she discoveres all?

Just curious--are you actually expecting Belle to dump him?  For more than an episode or two?

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple and Belle just tied the knot... so I don't really see any dumping coming any time soon.

Edited June 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

So, remember the favor David owes Rumple for the Dreamshade-curing elixr?

Didn't Neal force Rumple to provide the cure at no cost, no favor owed? Or did Rumple agree to that with his fingers crossed, and now Neal's not around to enforce it?

[Rumsy4]

Just curious--are you actually expecting Belle to dump him? For more than an episode or two?

I know I am being delusional--because this is Belle we are talking about--but I hope she will dump him for at least a half-season. That will show "progress" because Rumple will have refrained from killing a wife that had dared to leave him. :-p

Didn't Neal force Rumple to provide the cure at no cost, no favor owed? Or did Rumple agree to that with his fingers crossed, and now Neal's not around to enforce it?

Rumple's not above calling-in the favor retroactively. IIRC, he told David that now that they were family, he would hope David would help him if he needed anything. I like seeing David and Rumple interact. So, I hope they bring some of that back next season, instead of isolating Rumple with yet another baddie most-season. Edited June 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

instead of isolating Rumple with yet another baddie most-season

 

Now that you mention it, they did it in both 3A (when he was off with his hallucination of Belle, and then with Pan) and 3B (with Zelena).  Bad idea.  Though I only enjoy his interactions with the others when he doesn't have the upperhand, but he usually does.  They're all dumb and helpless, and only he has the key, but wait!  It comes at a price!  Just shut up already.

[KAOS Agent]

They've made Rumpel too powerful and that's why he's constantly shuffled off somewhere else while everyone runs around doing nothing until the very end when they need him to vanquish the big bad they've also made too powerful. They've got the same problem with Regina to some extent, so they come up with stupid things to keep her from winning until they need it. Then they pull White!Magic!Regina out of their ass and expect us to not feel cheated. I do so desperately wish they would bring in a non-magical villain whose appearance would also bring with it a removal of magic from Storybrooke. Let's put everyone back on the same playing field as Season 1 and make Rumpel use his constantly scheming brain rather than his magic. Make Regina learn what it's like to be completely powerless in the face of evil.

 

Power and privilege is a huge issue with me for these villains. Those things need to be removed in order for me to buy into them changing. Make them lose everything and build themselves back up without just handing it back to them. Quit having them sacrifice and giving it back to them two episodes later when they've done nothing to earn it. I don't care about their mommy or daddy issues. There's a whole hell of a lot of others on this show with equal issues and somehow they've kept themselves in check and not become raging psychopathic murderers. 

Edited June 15, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[stealinghome]

Though I only enjoy his interactions with the others when he doesn't have the upperhand, but he usually does.

I agree with this. It's why Rumbelle worked so well in S1--because Belle looked him up and down and said "yeah, we're equals, GTFO yourself"--and why I tend to find the Rumpel-Emma, S2 Rumpel-David, and even (God help me) some Rumpel-Regina interactions so interesting. Because in different ways, Emma, Charming, and Regina all often stand up to Rumpel and refuse to let themselves be cowed/bullied/manipulated (it helps when he needs something from them in turn), or exact a pound of flesh from him in turn. And it's why Neal worked so well as a foil for, and off of Rumpel (but also why they kind of had to kill Neal off, structurally speaking), because he was the one person Rumpel never had the upper hand with.

 

Whereas I have always found Snow-Rumpel to be boring because he knows how to play Snow like a damn fiddle (probably in part because they actually have very similar depressive personalities in some respects), and Rumbelle has now become boring because Rumpel always has the upper hand and Belle is about a half-step away from being a doormat. I'm crossing my fingers they'll bring back Emma-Rumpel and David-Rumpel next season; I think Emma especially is often really livened up as a character by Rumpel, and Emma and David are the people who could truly push Rumpel in interesting directions.

 

do so desperately wish they would bring in a non-magical villain whose appearance would also bring with it a removal of magic from Storybrooke.

Leech! :) Seriously though, I agree that would be a really good thing for the show. Magic is increasingly a structural problem.

Edited June 15, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

Alternatively, they could throw Emma, Hook & Rumpel into a different Land without Magic or a depowered Enchanted Forest. Someplace where Hook would have the skills advantage, Emma would be out of her element but more than capable and Rumpel would have the knowledge, but nothing to back it up. That would make for some very interesting dynamics and the power structure would be hugely shifted.

 

This show desperately needs to step away from the magic cure all especially the Rumpel/Regina magical cure all. They've had two seasons of magical whatsits and the most magical magician that ever magicked except not to keep me interested in the plot, plot, plot portions of the story. I only hang on for the character moments and as those are in danger of becoming extinct, I'm almost ready to check out and not watch next season.

[stealinghome]

Honestly, if they threw Emma, Hook or Rumpel, and Charming into some other land and made them struggle to survive and whatnot, I would say the hell with the rest of the show, I'd watch the CRAP out of that spinoff and not miss the mothership one bit.

(Snow can cameo sometimes, but only because Ginny G and Josh D have such crazy chemistry.)

[Camera One]

I don't think any type of character favoritism is good since everyone watches for different characters.  The show also lost a bit of its flavor in 3A when it was entirely in Neverland and lacked any of the supporting fairy tale characters in Storybrooke.

 

 

 

I only hang on for the character moments.

 

Me too.  And it's so unpredictable when it happens, but when it does, the show can be very good.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Souris]

Honestly, if they threw Emma, Hook or Rumpel, and Charming into some other land and made them struggle to survive and whatnot, I would say the hell with the rest of the show, I'd watch the CRAP out of that spinoff and not miss the mothership one bit.

(Snow can cameo sometimes, but only because Ginny G and Josh D have such crazy chemistry.)

 

Oh, God, yes. I am so there for that show. Just Emma, Hook, Rumple and Charming (and recurring Snow) would be AWESOME.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't think any type of character favoritism is good since everyone watches for different characters.

 

Regina, Belle, Snow, Henry and Baby Snowflake can have their own separate storyline in Storybrooke with some of the secondary players. Given Snow's poor judgement, I'd go with her hiring Evil Mary Poppins. Everyone's favorites would have a story and I could just skip those parts I couldn't care less about. I only left David out of my non-magical world scenario because I don't want him to miss out on his new baby. Eh, newborns are lame anyway. He wouldn't really miss anything if he was gone the first few months, so he can join Team Badass.

 

I just want to avoid the 2A structure where they had three separate stories running at once and they couldn't fit all three in each episode. Since I mostly only cared about what was going on with Team Princess, there were several episodes where I completely tuned out because there was no Team Princess and instead had filler stories about Whale or whatever. It's annoying that they continued to waste time on pointless flashbacks (Hook's story was pertinent so I'll give them that episode) rather than focus on the two present day stories. Flashbacks should only be used when pertinent to the present story or actually give some new information. Emma background would be acceptable. Snowing vs. Evil Queen part 934823094823 is not.

[Dani-Ellie]

Flashbacks should only be used when pertinent to the present story or actually give some new information. Emma background would be acceptable. Snowing vs. Evil Queen part 934823094823 is not.

 

That was pretty much my only problem with "Lost Girl." Don't get me wrong, I like when they parallel Emma's journey with her parents' (because aww), but if ever there was an episode ripe for Wee Emma backstory, it was that one.

[Serena]

I know I am being delusional--because this is Belle we are talking about--but I hope she will dump him for at least a half-season. That will show "progress" because Rumple will have refrained from killing a wife that had dared to leave him. :-p

What a prince!! LOL, it's sad that this is what is considered "progress" for one of the most popular ships on the show. 

I vote for Rumple starts hallucinating Belle and Hook getting it on, to stretch this theory to the max - and also because I want to see what it would look like :P

[RadioGirl27]

What a prince!! LOL, it's sad that this is what is considered "progress" for one of the most popular ships on the show. 

I vote for Rumple starts hallucinating Belle and Hook getting it on, to stretch this theory to the max - and also because I want to see what it would look like :P

The relationship between Hook and Belle is too complicated, but I would love to see them becoming friends (both love books), and see how Rumple reacts to that.

[Shanna Marie]

The relationship between Hook and Belle is too complicated, but I would love to see them becoming friends (both love books), and see how Rumple reacts to that.

This is going to sound potentially strange, but I'd actually love to see Hook and Rumple having to really team up and work together -- and not just work on the same goal from different angles, as they've done so far. When you think about it, once you get past the stolen wife/dead wife/cut-off hand thing, they have a lot in common. They're both from the same time period. They're both military veterans (to some extent, though Rumple fragged himself before he saw much action), and I've wondered if perhaps they were fighting in the same ongoing war or for the same king. A king who'd send a ship to obtain a deadly poison to use in warfare while telling the ship's crew that it's a healing herb sounds like the kind of king who'd use the Dark One to force military conscription. If so, they'd have had a common enemy who had a lot to do with sending them down a dark path. And they both loved Bae. I wonder if Rumple has any idea how close Bae and Hook apparently were, that Hook looked after Bae and tried to help him survive Neverland. It seems like if they ever got past those particular points of animosity (which are, admittedly, huge), they'd have a lot to talk about. I'm not getting the sense that Hook is holding on to a lot of hatred. He seemed pretty neutral toward Rumple in the past and didn't really take offense at how much past Rumple wanted to kill him. He didn't seem to hold what Zelena made Rumple do to him against Rumple. So if there is still animosity, it would be on Rumple's side. How much is still there, and could he get over it?

[Rumsy4]

I somehow don't think Hook and Belle, or Rumple and Hook, could ever be buddies. There will always be a sense of antagonism, however much they may have to work together. Besides, I'd rather not see another example of a victim being too accomodating towards their oppressor.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[kili]

They're both military veterans (to some extent, though Rumple fragged himself before he saw much action), and I've wondered if perhaps they were fighting in the same ongoing war or for the same king.

 

Rumple was cannon fodder just like Bae would have been. Little to no training or weapons - used as a last ditch distraction. And he ran away even before he could fulfill that "role".

 

It appears that Killian was a trained officer on an important Naval crew (with a ship that was made of enchanted wood, Pegasus sails and secret missions).

 

I don't think they would have a lot in common on that front (Charming/Snow/Red/Dwarfs and Hook would have more in common in that area). Killian is Chef Ramsey to Rumple's guy-who-knows-how-to-order-take-out-when-his-wife-is-out-of-town. But, they definitely have the same era going for them.

 

Can they be friends? Normally, I would say no. Few become friends with the person who ties you to the mast so that you can watch your beloved be murdered for the sin of loving you more than the murderer.  But Regina burnt Snow at the stake and now Snow is her wingman, so who knows on this show? Granted, Snow did believe she had a relationship with Regina before she went pscyho, so perhaps that explains some of her leniency in that regard. One wonders if Charming had been murdered in the same way by Regina if Snow would have been so quick to forgive (the heart sacrifice doesn't obviously count because she was doing them a favour at their behest).

 

A king who'd send a ship to obtain a deadly poison to use in warfare while telling the ship's crew that it's a healing herb sounds like the kind of king who'd use the Dark One to force military conscription.

 

I've wondered if they were on opposing sides. The ogres we've seen are idiots - completely incapable of any sort of strategy. They hear sound and they run towards it and eat it. They can be killed with a well-aimed shot to the eye. So, why do they cause such problems? I've wondered if they are used as a sort of weapon. Get a bunch of ogres and point them at your enemy (and like all such weapons, they actually cause a lot of friendly fire collateral damage). People who use ogres as weapons might also use deadly poisons.

 

I can't even imagine how a Navy would be much use against ogres who don't seem capable of getting on the sea and would not be bothered by a trade embargo (they eat local and are clothing optional). Ogres are treated with such disdain by everybody (killed without a second thought), that I'm not even sure that poisoning them with Dream Shade would be viewed as a moral problem. They seem to be viewed as closer to animals than sentient beings.

 

Killian and Liam worked for a King. The guy conscripting peasents in Rumple's village was a Duke. Once Rumple kills the Duke's Dark One and becomes the Dark One, he easily stops the Ogre Wars. So, why was the Duke being such a dumb a$$ and using his Dark One to conscript peasants instead of easily winning the war? Sounds like some warzones we have today where warlords get more financial advantage from continuing to fight a never-ending war with each other than actually resolving it.

Edited June 15, 2014 by kili

[Camera One]

Aurora and Philip also managed to take care of them without conscripting child labor, and this was in a land where the ogres had been allowed to run wild for 28 years.  And what forces did Aurora and Philip have, considering everyone in the Safe Haven were murdered. More inconsistent world building.     

[YaddaYadda]

I'd rather Hook and Rumple don't become friends.  It's enough to have Snow and Regina doing dishes together.  I don't think I'll be able to deal if Rumple invites Hook for earl grey and cucumber sandwiches.

[KAOS Agent]

 

And what forces did Aurora and Philip have, considering everyone in the Safe Haven were murdered. More inconsistent world building.

 

I assumed Zelena took out all of the ogres. Ogres would annoy her and could potentially mess with her plans. Easy enough to just kill them or turn them into her flying monkey army.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, my personal headcanon is that Aurora and Philip cut a deal with Zelena to beat back the flying monkeys in exchange for, I guess, information (?). It makes me much less annoyed with everything about the way the return was handled in 3x12.

 

Killian and Liam worked for a King. The guy conscripting peasents in Rumple's village was a Duke. Once Rumple kills the Duke's Dark One and becomes the Dark One, he easily stops the Ogre Wars. So, why was the Duke being such a dumb a$$ and using his Dark One to conscript peasants instead of easily winning the war?

Yeah, this has always bothered me about Rumpel's backstory (which I like otherwise). It would've made more sense if the Dark One was being held by a neighboring Duke, who used the Dark One to keep ogres off his land but hated Rumpel's Duke and refused to let the Dark One help Rumpel's duchy too. The conscription could've just been Rumpel's Duke being desperate.

[KingOfHearts]

How did King Xavier transfer to King Leopold? I know Cora addressed Leopold simply as "the king" in Stable Boy, so did the Mills family just move? What was Cora's role in society? Was she a princess, or just wealthy? She wanted Regina, in her infancy, to some day be queen of Xavier's kingdom, so why would they move to another one? There's a theory that Henry Sr. and Leopold are brothers, but then Regina would be marrying her own uncle... making Snow her cousin.

Edited June 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Can they be friends? Normally, I would say no. Few become friends with the person who ties you to the mast so that you can watch your beloved be murdered for the sin of loving you more than the murderer.

Oh, I wouldn't think they would ever really be friends, but if they were forced to work together in some kind of proximity toward a common goal, they might have some interesting conversations, and there's some material there for a mutual truce. I don't think they'd ever like each other personally, but I could see them respecting each other in terms of what they could bring to the table in a crisis. If they ran into each other at Granny's, they might drink a toast to Bae and then ignore each other, but they aren't likely to meet up for a friendly pint. On this show, they act like you either have to love someone or hate them, and if you don't hate them, it seems you have to hang out together and be friendly. It would be interesting if they were able to show a relationship where two people don't like each other (for good reason) but just avoid each other and deal with each other when necessary without actually being enemies.

 

Along the lines of the idea of having the Dark One and not using him as a weapon against the enemies instead of against your own people to force military service, I find it interesting that the Jewel of the Realm had cannons, which means gunpowder, and yet some 300 years later they're fighting with swords and arrows. Is artillery just a navy thing or is the Jolly Roger the only remnant of that time? Hook has used a gun, and it looks somewhat old-fashioned. I wonder if that's meant to be his weapon or something he scrounged up in this world.

[KAOS Agent]

Random Question: Does anybody ever wonder why when Emma, Snow & the Wraith fell through the hat they didn't end up in the room with the doors? Also does Hook just end up in Wonderland or does he go to the door room when he uses the hat? Are there signs over the doors that tell where they lead? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Serena]

How did King Xavier transfer to King Leopold? I know Cora addressed Leopold simply as "the king" in Stable Boy, so did the Mills family just move? What was Cora's role in society? Was she a princess, or just wealthy? She wanted Regina, in her infancy, to some day be queen of Xavier's kingdom, so why would they move to another one? There's a theory that Henry Sr. and Leopold are brothers, but then Regina would be marrying her own uncle... making Snow her cousin.

If by "transfer" you mean how did Leopold inherit from Xavier, he didn't. They were kings of two completely different kingdoms. 

The Mills family seems to have moved away from Henry's kingdom and lost some of its status in the Stable Boy. Cora was technically a princess, being married to a prince - but not a crown prince, which would mean she'd have to murder all of Henry's older brothers before she could get the throne. I don't think Cora wanted Regina to specifically be queen of Xavier's kingdom - she just wanted her to be queen. Regina would have been a princess, the King's granddaughter, so it wouldn't really have been that difficult to organize a royal marriage for her, get her engaged to some crown prince or king. That is, if they hadn't lost whatever status they had at King Xavier's court.

I don't think Henry and Leopold can be brothers - they cast Henry specifically as Latino, and Leopold is not.

[Shanna Marie]

In the "Pilot" thread, I brought up the fight between Charming and the Black Knights and how it compares to fight scenes since then, and since getting into specifics means talking about multiple episodes, I thought I'd bring it up here.

 

I was a little surprised by how bloody that fight was -- not at Game of Thrones levels, but still there was blood and Charming was actually sticking the knights with the pointy end. The more recent sword fights have been much more sanitized, with them not even fighting like they're using sharp objects. It's like they aim at the opponent's sword rather than aiming at the other person.

 

I suppose that made plot sense for Hook's fight against the guards in the season 3 finale. He was trying to protect the timeline by not killing anyone, so he only used his own blade defensively, to keep them from stabbing him, and he was taking them out of the fight by kicking, throwing elbows and using the hilt of the sword. Though it might have helped if they'd made it clear what he was doing, like if there was a clear opening and you could tell he wanted to take it but couldn't. And it should have made the fight a lot more hazardous for him, since his opponents had no qualms about killing him. I know he's supposedly an awesome swordsman who had centuries to practice, but it's still weird that he managed to defeat a group of people while fighting them in such a way as to avoid killing them, and he walked away without so much as a scratch. But then Charming fought the guards at Regina's palace in much the same way, knocking out the guard without really using his sword, and he wasn't trying to avoid changing a timeline.

 

As I recall, the fight with Blackbeard was equally bloodless. They just danced around, banging their swords together, and Hook won by knowing his ship better, which I guess showed his cleverness and his attachment to his ship, but it still seems like an odd kind of fight for two pirates to have.

 

I only just got the DVDs, so I don't know yet how this trend will go, but I'll be watching for it. I wonder if they're trying to sanitize the violence, so it's more like a cartoon fight, with lots of action and no visible injuries, or if it's yet another sign of the show's wonky morality, where the good guys aren't allowed to hurt anyone, ever, even in self-defense, but then the bad guys aren't allowed to win, so no one gets hurt. The fighting style on this show kind of reminds me of when I took fencing in college. It seriously wigged me out to stab someone in the chest with a sword, even though the sword was blunted and my opponent was wearing protective gear. I got really good at defense and could keep from getting touched, but I didn't really attack. As a result, most of my bouts were a lot of sword-on-sword action with the swords seldom touching a person. I wasn't trying to hit the other person, and I wasn't letting them hit me. That's the wrong way to fence. I expect better of a prince or a pirate.