A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

 

So at the end of the day, it felt like Pan really only got 1 fairyback, whereas if you factor in the parental story, Zelena got 3. Which is way too much for an 11-episode-character.

 

I agree. It would have helped if Zelena had a relevant backstory that touched on many aspects and characters, but the only character she had a connection with was Rumple. Cora and Regina didn't know her at all. Pan, contrarily, had his hands in many characters' lives - Hook and his crew, Tink, the Lost Boys, The Darlings, Neal, Rumple, and possibly even Henry. Zelena's existence wasn't even necessary in the grand scheme of things. You can watch everything but 3B and nothing's missing at all.

 

Pan wasn't in your face, but he was a mysterious evil. He was darker, deeper, and more thought-provoking. Zelena, on the other hand, is just a carbon copy of Regina with 20% more crazy eyes. She doesn't bring much to the table at all.

 

At this point, they're just pulling baddies out of a hat. You know, just... random Rumple/Regina haters. There's literally thousands of them, so we might be getting Season 12 where we find out Pocahontas went evil after Rumple killed John Smith.

Edited August 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

The need to keep Pan's origin story secret until the end really helped 3A in being more about the main characters and less about the soon to be dead villain. By allowing Pan to just show up in some of the backstories and mess with them, 3A was not all about Peter Pan chewing the scenery. While the endless Snowing v Regina fairybacks are tiresome and pointless, at least they didn't feature Pan whining about how hard his life is and blame casting. It also helped that Pan was connected to multiple characters and was interested in screwing with even more of them in the present. 

 

Zelena's problem was multi-layered. Because she was almost completely disconnected from everyone in the past, they had to show backstories explaining her and what she's about without any of the mains playing a role in these stories. This, of course, renders them pointless because who the hell cares about Dorothy or Eva or Leopold or even Zelena really? The second issue came into play in the present story. Zelena was only really interested in Regina. Sure, she wanted Snow's baby and David's courage, but she wasn't looking to mess with them as people. She wanted to hurt her sister, so the present day Zelena stuff and much of the past Zelena stuff too became all about Regina. This doesn't work when you have a large ensemble cast. A brief synopsis of the other mains' stories: Emma was made completely useless and rightly wanted to go back to New York, Henry was shuffled off with various people (not that I'm complaining about that, mind you), Snow sat around freaking out about cradle cap (they get a pass on this given Ginny's real life pregnancy), Neal died, Belle read books and popped in with exposition, Hook moped and I'm not entirely sure what David's story was. These aren't interesting storylines for any of these characters. So if you're not a huge fan of Regina and couldn't care less about the villain du jour, pretty much the entire back season isn't going to work very well for you.

 

Now we've got Frozen coming in. Elsa was urned in Rumpel's vault during the "Snow Falls" era so her connection is basically Rumpel. So again, a story line completely disconnected from the mains with yet another member of the I Hate Rumpelstiltskin Club . And since it's the exceptionally popular Frozen, we'll get tons of pointless Frozen backstory that will mean nothing once the 4A arc ends. They need to find a different formula for their villains in 4B because people won't stick around to watch stories that don't go anywhere.

Edited August 26, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[MaiLuna]

I'm 99% sure the writers would spontaneously combust if they were ever forced to not give Regina a fairyback for one season. Heck, even one half season.

 

Okay, I'm now curious. Has anyone gone through and officially counted the amount of flashback episodes each of the regular cast members have gotten so far? I am not even joking... someone please post this list for me. I'll even give you a digital Internet brownie.

I would totally count the flashback episodes if I had more time but I can at least link you to:

 

Season 1 & 2 screentime per character: http://shikabane-mai.tumblr.com/post/51421572074/ouat-character-screentime-season-1-2

 

And season 3 screentime per character in the whole season and in each episode: http://lanaptheevilpanda.tumblr.com/tagged/ouat-screentime

 

ETA: I realized the first link talks about the amount of flashback episodes too :)

Edited August 26, 2014 by MaiLuna

[Mari]

I'm 99% sure the writers would spontaneously combust if they were ever forced to not give Regina a fairyback for one season. Heck, even one half season.

Does it make me a bad, murderously-impulse driven person if I admit that does not take away from my desire to have no Regina flashbacks in season 4?  Combust away, writers.  (Although, if you are going to combust, I prefer it to be of the verbal explosion type, not the actual explosion.)

 

 

 

Zelena was only really interested in Regina. Sure, she wanted Snow's baby and David's courage, but she wasn't looking to mess with them as people. She wanted to hurt her sister, so the present day Zelena stuff and much of the past Zelena stuff too became all about Regina.  . . . So if you're not a huge fan of Regina and couldn't care less about the villain du jour, pretty much the entire back season isn't going to work very well for you.

 

Now we've got Frozen coming in. Elsa was urned in Rumpel's vault during the "Snow Falls" era so her connection is basically Rumpel. So again, a story line completely disconnected from the mains with yet another member of the I Hate Rumpelstiltskin Club . And since it's the exceptionally popular Frozen, we'll get tons of pointless Frozen backstory that will mean nothing once the 4A arc ends. They need to find a different formula for their villains in 4B because people won't stick around to watch stories that don't go anywhere.

Yes.  Yes to your post.  Why should I care about 3B, apart from wanting these writers to never write these characters again? 3B (combined with the Tree of Regret) made me go from not really caring about Regina--apart from still thinking she was a bad guy--to full-on rage nearly every time she was on screen.

 

I'm desperately hoping they find a way to integrate Frozen better with the rest of the cast, because while I like Robert Carlyle, if 3/4s of 4A is him prancing around in Dark One flashbacks and/or watching live-action bits of a cartoon I've already seen, I'm going to start tuning out.

[Shanna Marie]

I kind of liked the fairyback for "Nasty Habits" because the idea of an evil Peter Pan as the Pied Piper, using that as a scheme to lure away children, works for me, and I liked the imagery of the masked savage children dancing around the fire. It just doesn't work in context of what came before or came after. It didn't seem like Bae was that antagonistic toward his father before the portal leap. He was concerned about him and trying to find a way to cure him, though he was horrified by the things his father was doing. Considering that we saw his last moment with his father, this didn't fit, even if we assume that the flashbacks for this episode fit within the previous flashbacks (the initial concern, then this episode with the growing animosity, then the final bean/portal plan). It also doesn't really work with what we later learn about Pan being Rumple's father. In those flashbacks, it seemed that his father mostly resented him for reminding him he had to be an adult, and he sent his son away so he could truly believe and not have to worry about being reminded of being an adult. So why would he seek out his middle-aged son and his teenage grandson to antagonize his son? Wouldn't seeing his teenaged grandson be a really harsh reminder that he wasn't really a kid? You'd think he'd have stayed well away from Rumple. You'd also think that Bae would have known more about Pan upon his arrival in Neverland if he'd met him before, unless he didn't know at the time that the Piper was Pan, and then why didn't we see those dots connect for him? Here they set up this past between Bae and Pan, and we never actually see Bae and Pan together in Neverland. Just as in the present day story we get hints of a past between Hook and Bae, in which Hook seemed to know him pretty well and knew his home on the island, which implies there was more to that relationship than the time Bae spent on the ship, but we never see them together in Neverland after that initial unfriendly parting.

 

I'm just not crazy about the way they tied Rumple to Pan. That story made no sense and was extremely creepy if Malcolm/Pan was willing to sacrifice his great grandson just to keep magic in Neverland, and yet having his great grandson around didn't break the spell and remind him that he was old. I could have dealt with Rumple having been a Lost Boy who escaped, or the would-be Lost Boy who was left behind because ultimately he was too afraid to go with the others to Neverland, or if Pan had just made the bad choice of trying to recruit the Dark One's son and was itching for a rematch.

[KingOfHearts]

I also would have gone along with the idea that Rumple and Pan were childhood friends, and that Pan betrayed him and went to Neverland. Then they would have been antagonists ever since. I like the idea of rivals better than relatives. Same with Regina and Zelena - Wicked vs. Evil would have worked better if they had actually been just rivals. The writers say the blood connection ups the emotional ante, but I never really saw that happening.

 

It's possible to have good, dynamic relationships without being in the same family tree. Shows do that all the time.

Edited August 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

So why would he seek out his middle-aged son and his teenage grandson to antagonize his son? Wouldn't seeing his teenaged grandson be a really harsh reminder that he wasn't really a kid? You'd think he'd have stayed well away from Rumple

imo, the story would have worked better if they'd played it as "magic is Neverland is failing because Pan can never fully forget that he's Malcolm because he can't bear to fully let go of Rumpel." I don't think it would have made Pan any less despicable--if anything, it could have made him even worse--and it would have explained a lot about Pan's actions and the emotional dynamic between him and Rumpel (like, for example, seeking out Bae even as he was trying to forget about Rumpel). And maybe they intended that to be the subtext, but if so, I wish they'd actually said it.

 

Because with that said, as they stand, I agree that the 'Nasty Habits' fairybacks were awful. Totally useless, messing up the Bae/Rumpel relationship status timeline, and at the end of the day, just really f'ing stupid and poorly written, not engaging at all. 'Nasty Habits' and 'Save Henry' had by far the worst fairybacks of 3A.

 

I also would have gone along with the idea that Rumple and Pan were childhood friends, and that Pan betrayed him and went to Neverland. Then they would have been antagonists ever since. I like the idea of rivals better than relatives. Same with Regina and Zelena - Wicked vs. Evil would have worked better if they had actually been just rivals. The writers say the blood connection ups the emotional ante, but I never really saw that happening.

I agree that making her a blood relative did nothing for Zelena, but I think it could have upped the ante for Pan...if the show had presented him as Papa Stiltskin from Day One. Then they could have really delved into Rumpel's complicated relationship with him and used it to peel back several of Rumpel's layers. But by waiting so, so late in the game to reveal it, they squandered the "up the ante" potential of him being Rumpel's father.

 

Looking back on it, I wish they had reversed the family reveals. I think Pan would've worked better if they'd presented him as Rumpel's father immediately, and I actually think Zelena might have worked better if the sister reveal had been sprung on both her and Regina very late in the game. (It could have, for example, added some depth to Regina's choice to not kill her in 3x20.)

Edited August 26, 2014 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

The writers say the blood connection ups the emotional ante, but I never really saw that happening.

I guess that goes hand-in-hand with the "but they're family!" attitude, in which anyone who is related to you, whether by DNA, marriage or adoption, regardless of how evil that person is or how that person has treated you, is automatically important to you and more important to you than anyone who isn't a family member, regardless of how close that relationship might be. They definitely don't seem to believe in the concept of "found" families or making your own family when nature screwed you over with the family you were born into. Thus Rumple and Regina get a free pass, in spite of being very toxic people, because "they're family!" And if they have that attitude, then a half sister Regina has never met is supposedly more important to her than some random rival would be, just because of DNA.

 

Really, though, Zelena being related didn't seem to change things at all for Regina. It only created the situation for Zelena because she was jealous of the sister who had everything she wanted, and therefore she wanted to wipe her from existence and take her place. The only emotional impact for Regina was discovering that she wasn't as special as she thought to Rumple. She didn't seem to have any bond with Zelena, didn't try to save her because she was her sister. And on the upside, we didn't once have to hear Henry shout that they couldn't do anything to her because she was family.

 

Rumple's relationship with Pan was just a mess. I think it was more a case of "Shocking!Revelation!" without much thinking it through.

[KingOfHearts]

You can have the same amount of tension with people you aren't related to and your family. Not all close relationships have to have the same DNA, villains very much included. Pan and Zelena could easily have been people who Rumple or Regina ticked off in the past, much like Greg, Hook or probably Elsa. I agree with StealingHome that Daddy Pan could have worked, but the writers chose to tip toe around so they could hide it until the big reveal.

 

We had the opposite problem with Zelena - she was revealed early, and we didn't really need to know she was a sibling of Regina. Zelena's beef wasn't even with Regina herself, but simply the life she got. The person she really should have been mad at was Cora, but misdirected anger runs in the mill (pun) in that family. What should have happened was something that a lot of us speculated - Zelena was lying or wrong about being her sister.

 

Now, with Cora, her being Regina's mother worked perfectly. Cora was relevant to most of the cast, plus she was a huge part of Once's history. She was the mother of the Evil Queen, facilitated her turning into a psycho, tyrannized Wonderland as the Queen of Hearts, and created the Cora Dome. Her blood connection was entirely necessary, because it upped the stakes with Regina as her mother.

Edited August 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

From Zelena's side of things, it was important that Regina was her sister because that made her feel more entitled to the life Regina got -- their mother abandoned her, then raised Regina as a princess. You wouldn't get quite the same level of jealousy that some random stranger had a better life. Then there was the fact that Rumple was training Regina because of the prophecy that Cora's daughter would cast the curse, and Zelena wanted to be the one to get to cast the curse because she was better at magic than Regina and didn't quite grasp that him not wanting her had nothing to do with aptitude and everything to do with the fact that he was the only person she really loved, which disqualified her. So Zelena's motivation was getting everything Regina got that she felt entitled to. On Regina's side of things, it didn't matter at all other than in the use of blood magic. She had no sympathy for her sister, no sense of "there but for the grace of God go I" awareness, no temptation to join forces, no jealousy, no sadness.

 

If they weren't going to make the sisterhood matter to the regular character, then I'm not sure why they bothered setting up Zelena's side of the story to require her being Regina's sister. She could have been the woman Rumple was training before he ditched her to focus on Regina, a handmaiden of Cora's or Regina's who gained power and was pissed-off, another witch Regina had previously vanquished and exiled -- really, anything to give Regina some emotional stakes. As it was, she only seemed to care because of self-preservation. This psycho was targeting her and planned to erase her existence, but she was a total stranger to everyone.

 

Maybe the sister thing would have worked better if Zelena hadn't come on strong from the start with all the mwa-ha-haing and instead had ingratiated herself with Regina as a long-lost sister and established some kind of relationship with a Regina who was heartbroken and vulnerable after losing her son. Having an older sister to bond with and commiserate with might have been appealing to Regina. And meanwhile, Zelena would actually have been Single White Femaleing her, worming her way into Regina's life so that she could eventually get everything she needed to do her spell. Then there might have been at least a sense of betrayal from Regina and from the others if they'd gotten to know and accept her, too. That would also have lent some complexity to Zelena if she'd started to enjoy what she was getting from playing the role -- being part of a group, being loved and accepted -- and then had to decide whether to go through with her spell because part of her didn't want to erase them.

[angelwoody]

From Zelena's side of things, it was important that Regina was her sister because that made her feel more entitled to the life Regina got -- their mother abandoned her, then raised Regina as a princess. You wouldn't get quite the same level of jealousy that some random stranger had a better life. Then there was the fact that Rumple was training Regina because of the prophecy that Cora's daughter would cast the curse, and Zelena wanted to be the one to get to cast the curse because she was better at magic than Regina and didn't quite grasp that him not wanting her had nothing to do with aptitude and everything to do with the fact that he was the only person she really loved, which disqualified her. So Zelena's motivation was getting everything Regina got that she felt entitled to. On Regina's side of things, it didn't matter at all other than in the use of blood magic. She had no sympathy for her sister, no sense of "there but for the grace of God go I" awareness, no temptation to join forces, no jealousy, no sadness.

 

If they weren't going to make the sisterhood matter to the regular character, then I'm not sure why they bothered setting up Zelena's side of the story to require her being Regina's sister. She could have been the woman Rumple was training before he ditched her to focus on Regina, a handmaiden of Cora's or Regina's who gained power and was pissed-off, another witch Regina had previously vanquished and exiled -- really, anything to give Regina some emotional stakes. As it was, she only seemed to care because of self-preservation. This psycho was targeting her and planned to erase her existence, but she was a total stranger to everyone.

 

Maybe the sister thing would have worked better if Zelena hadn't come on strong from the start with all the mwa-ha-haing and instead had ingratiated herself with Regina as a long-lost sister and established some kind of relationship with a Regina who was heartbroken and vulnerable after losing her son. Having an older sister to bond with and commiserate with might have been appealing to Regina. And meanwhile, Zelena would actually have been Single White Femaleing her, worming her way into Regina's life so that she could eventually get everything she needed to do her spell. Then there might have been at least a sense of betrayal from Regina and from the others if they'd gotten to know and accept her, too. That would also have lent some complexity to Zelena if she'd started to enjoy what she was getting from playing the role -- being part of a group, being loved and accepted -- and then had to decide whether to go through with her spell because part of her didn't want to erase them.

Shanna Marie, why don't you write for this show???  That would have been so much better than what we ended up getting.

[Writing Wrongs]

It just doesn't work in context of what came before or came after. It didn't seem like Bae was that antagonistic toward his father before the portal leap. He was concerned about him and trying to find a way to cure him, though he was horrified by the things his father was doing. Considering that we saw his last moment with his father, this didn't fit, even if we assume that the flashbacks for this episode fit within the previous flashbacks (the initial concern, then this episode with the growing animosity, then the final bean/portal plan).

Season 3's flashbacks seemed to contradict previous season's flashbacks and for me it became annoying..

[RadioGirl27]

 

Season 3's flashbacks seemed to contradict previous season's flashbacks and for me it became annoying..

 

At this point, they are just rewritting the past of the different characters to adapt it to their new ideas.

[KingOfHearts]

 

At this point, they are just rewritting the past of the different characters to adapt it to their new ideas.

 

Oddly enough, with all the whitewashing, they kept the Regina flashbacks the same and just as sadistic!

 

(Except Save Henry. That was Regina's one redeeming flashback.)

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Shanna Marie, why don't you write for this show?

I don't really have any TV experience (I've just consulted on a pitch for a series that didn't get to the pilot stage), I have no desire to live in LA, and unless I was hired by the network brass and imposed upon the showrunners, I'd last about five minutes. The first story meeting, I'd likely end up saying something like, "Whoa, what is the deal with your Regina obsession? Does Lana Parilla have incriminating photos of you in a compromising position with a goat, or something? Because you do remember the stuff she's done, right? She's hurt a lot of people and never apologized. So why are they kissing her ass? Shouldn't it be the other way around?" And then I wouldn't have to worry about living in LA anymore. (I'm not known for being diplomatic in meetings.)

 

Oddly enough, with all the whitewashing, they kept the Regina flashbacks the same and just as sadistic!

That's the truly bizarre thing, that while they're waving the magic wand to "redeem" her in the present, with her suffering no lasting consequences and getting all the goodies, they keep showing her being worse and worse in the past, having been given multiple chances to turn herself around that she always refused to take, with no doubt whatsoever that she really is the villain.

 

So if she refused the opportunity to turn away from hate and find true love, and if she refused every offer of amnesty from Snow, why is it different now? I guess Henry, but then that means she has an external conscience, so she isn't really redeemed, but she's getting all the rewards of redemption. And then they keep acting like it's all really Snow's fault and no one's allowed to be mad at Regina for what she's done, while they have to grovel to her if they so much as look at her wrong or have looked at her wrong in the past.

[RadioGirl27]

Oddly enough, with all the whitewashing, they kept the Regina flashbacks the same and just as sadistic!

 

I think it's because they love the Evil Queen so much that they don't want to get rid of her. And I think they trully believe they are doing a great job redeeming her in the present, so the past actions are not important.

[Jean]

I think the problem is we look at characters from the present as the starting point of storytelling. A&E seems to view the present as the end point for the characters and the real story they want to tell is the "prequel." That's why they spend 1000% more time and effort on the fairybacks than the present. They just love telling a story backwards. They can't do forward. Now I would say part of that is because they love the fairy tale world more than the present modern one and I do think it's part of that but they did nothing with the Missing Year. Because it's technically part of the present era? S1's finale was probably the end point/end game for them and that's why they're now struggling so bad.

 

Compare Rumpel/Bae vs Gold/Neal.  It's such a stark difference in the care given to each. It's probably also why Emma suffers the most of the characters. She's the sole character whose story is only told in the present and needs to be told in the present. Because her past isn't fairy tale based they're aren't going to touch it. It's pretty telling that the best episodes for her came in at the 3rd season where surprise, surprise, she's in the past and fairy tale world.

 

The only exception I see to this is the Hook and Emma relationship. There's only a one way road there and that's forward. Even the Woegina and Hood relationship they have to force a past story to be able to do anything with them ala Marian. They can't even see a story there with a present conflict. They have to reach back into the past. It's kind of bizarre to me.  Then again these are the writers that think Woegina is some combination of saint and biggest victim and Snow is evil. I don't want to understand what goes on in their heads.

[Writing Wrongs]

(Except Save Henry. That was Regina's one redeeming flashback.)

 

 

That nonsense of her learning Emma's identity and then choosing to erase that memory screamed bullshit to me. No way Regina would do that. This is the woman who has blamed a child for everything wrong in her life.

 

I know the pilot doesn't really count as far as continuity: All the Rumple and Charmings interaction in it totally negate how often they dealt with him in future episodes. But it still bugs me that it seemed that Emma stayed because she knew Regina was lying about loving Henry, but then all they have shown is how Regina's "love" (obsession) with Henry is her redeeming quality in the face of the horrors she has inflicted. The way they all seem to forgive her because of Henry makes me pissed.

 

I had to laugh when Tink told Regina that she had ruined Robin's life by not going into the tavern to meet him. Uh no, honey, I think Robin dodged a bullet on that one.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Writing Wrongs

[Mathius]

The writers say the blood connection ups the emotional ante, but I never really saw that happening.

It's possible to have good, dynamic relationships without being in the same family tree. Shows do that all the time.

 

While I agree with this, I don't agree when it comes to Pan.  He had to be biologically related to Henry, otherwise it does come across as a very cheap "Generic Doomsday Villain" plot: this all-powerful baddie just shows up out of nowhere because Henry just so happens to be needed for some selfish evil plan that isn't emotionally affecting in any way aside from the fact that it will kill Henry (which for most of the audience, isn't emotionally affecting at all and would be rather welcome.) Making him Rumple's father gives us more reason to give a damn about him and hate him besides "OH NOEZ, HE KIDNAPPED HENRY!"

 

'Nasty Habits' and 'Save Henry' had by far the worst fairybacks of 3A.

I'm sorry, I don't care how bad "Nasty Habits" fairyback was, it is not worse than the Medusa crap in "The New Neverland". That one, along with "Save Henry" just before it, was the worst fairyback of 3A.

 

I agree that making her a blood relative did nothing for Zelena, but I think it could have upped the ante for Pan...if the show had presented him as Papa Stiltskin from Day One. Then they could have really delved into Rumpel's complicated relationship with him and used it to peel back several of Rumpel's layers. But by waiting so, so late in the game to reveal it, they squandered the "up the ante" potential of him being Rumpel's father.

Looking back on it, I wish they had reversed the family reveals. I think Pan would've worked better if they'd presented him as Rumpel's father immediately, and I actually think Zelena might have worked better if the sister reveal had been sprung on both her and Regina very late in the game. (It could have, for example, added some depth to Regina's choice to not kill her in 3x20.)

 

 

First, I'll reply by quoting KAOS Agent:

 

The need to keep Pan's origin story secret until the end really helped 3A in being more about the main characters and less about the soon to be dead villain. By allowing Pan to just show up in some of the backstories and mess with them, 3A was not all about Peter Pan chewing the scenery. While the endless Snowing v Regina fairybacks are tiresome and pointless, at least they didn't feature Pan whining about how hard his life is and blame casting. It also helped that Pan was connected to multiple characters and was interested in screwing with even more of them in the present.

 

 

Second, revealing Pan as Rumple's father from the get-go would have been a disaster. Most people who were alienated by the twist weren't alienated because he was Rumple's father, they were alienated because this he, Peter Pan, was secretly an adult period (which I think is ridiculous since I feel that if you can accept that Red Riding Hood is a werewolf who ate her boyfriend, you can accept anything else).  To have that alienation happen at the beginning of the arc is not a good idea. Holding off on the reveal was a smart move.

 

Rumple's relationship with Pan was just a mess. I think it was more a case of "Shocking!Revelation!" without much thinking it through.

Care to explain your reasoning? It made sense to me. Deadbeat dads suffering from Peter Pan Syndrome is an aspect of real life, so why not translate it to it's logical fantasy conclusion?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

Care to explain your reasoning? It made sense to me. Deadbeat dads suffering from Peter Pan Syndrome is an aspect of real life, so why not translate it to it's logical fantasy conclusion?

It wasn't the idea that was the problem so much as the execution that was a mess. The writing came across as being all about building to the Shocking!Revelation! than about really exploring the idea of a deadbeat dad with Peter Pan Syndrome by using fantasy to make the metaphor literal, and the big revelation didn't really fit the context of what they showed before. There's a big difference between an adult who ignores his child because his child reminds him that he's an adult and not a kid anymore, and a father pretending to still be a child who actively seeks out his middle-aged son to be hostile to him and torment him. If he's all "go away, you remind me that I'm really old" then why would he be going anywhere near his grown son to play "I hate you!" games? And if Pan kicked baby Rumple off the island because he reminded him that he was an adult father, what would the presence of grandfather Rumple have done to him? So they came up with a cool idea but then didn't think it through, explore it or really use it.

[regularlyleaded]

It wasn't the idea that was the problem so much as the execution that was a mess.

I think this has been the crux of all the problems with this show for the last two seasons. Hell, there's no better example of this than Regina. The writers have spent the last two seasons and 90% of their energy trying to write a redemption story for The Evil Queen and what has been the result? I think she's legitimately mentally ill. A clinically certified sociopath with narcissistic traits. She's not redeemed, she cray-cray! Again, interesting idea, but terrible, terrible (stupefyingly terrible) execution. And the results have been much the same across their entire board (of ideas).

[Rumsy4]

I posted on the Magic thread as well. I was browsing Adam's twitter, and he was responding to a very reasonable tweeter about Graham. He's claiming that even after the Curse broke, Emma thought Graham died of natural causes, and she had no proof of anything else. So she did not confront Regina. https://twitter.com/adamhorowitzla/status/504008746646118400

[RadioGirl27]

I posted on the Magic thread as well. I was browsing Adam's twitter, and he was responding to a very reasonable tweeter about Graham. He's claiming that even after the Curse broke, Emma thought Graham died of natural causes, and she had no proof of anything else. So she did not confront Regina. https://twitter.com/adamhorowitzla/status/504008746646118400

This is so ridiculous. I don't know why I even bother with this show anymore.

Edited August 27, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[KingOfHearts]

 

He's claiming that even after the Curse broke, Emma thought Graham died of natural causes, and she had no proof of anything else. So she did not confront Regina

That's about as plausible as their statement that Graham making tacos with Regina in Storybrooke was with his consent. I can't believe Emma was never like, "Wait a second... You really did kill Graham, didn't you! Henry was right, wasn't he?" Did she really not care about him at all? His death scene says otherwise.

 

It's like everything that happened in S1 just got erased after the curse broke. Not just with Graham, but what happened with Snowing, etc. Were they not angry that Regina split them up and put them through such a painful love triangle situation? Regina even tried to seduce David just a few episodes before the curse broke. They really didn't feel weird about that... at all?

Edited August 28, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

That's back pedaling or an outright lie. He said there was a scene of Emma confronting Woegina in the S1 finale but it was cut. Which is the lie?

Clearly they aren't going to ever address it lest it taints Woegina's halo. They should just leave Graham alone. Stop answering questions about him. It just makes them look bad. First the idiotic back pedaling over his rape and now this.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Jean

[Rumsy4]

This is part of their plan to give the good guys amnesia, and make them too stupid to put 2 and 2 together. so that Regina can be coddled, and never made to pay for anything she's ever done anyone.

[Shanna Marie]

The writers have spent the last two seasons and 90% of their energy trying to write a redemption story for The Evil Queen and what has been the result?

Lower ratings? It's funny, in the past few weeks the topic of this show has come up in various places in my online networks, and every time, someone will chime in to say something to the effect that they started watching in season one but ended up dropping the show because of the Evil Queen. In one case they cited the scenery chewing, in one case the fact that they hated the character and she started eating the show. I don't even think this is one of those echo chamber things because it's come in comments to my blog, where most of my readers aren't even people I know and I mostly talk about writing using examples from TV and movies, and in Facebook posts from people I used to work with, with the comments on Regina coming from their friends. None of these are fan forums. The Facebook posts were more of the "geek dad" sort, where they were talking about things they watch with their kids. So the Evil Regals may be the very loud and in your face fans the writers hear and let reinforce their worldviews, but the ordinary viewers who just turned it off because if they wanted to spend Sunday evening with a narcissistic sociopath they'd have dinner with their boss don't seem to be considered. And yet there was a drastic ratings drop from season one to season two, I think right around the point where the Woegina stuff really kicked in.

 

Back to the Pan issue -- I think one other reason the Pan as Rumple's father thing didn't work so well was that Malcolm didn't map very well to Pan. Malcolm was set up to be that Peter Pan syndrome middle-aged man who didn't want to grow up, but he was shown as being the frat boy sort who resented having to leave the pub long enough to earn a living and look after his son. The kind of Peter Pan he'd have become seems more like he'd have run Neverland as a frat house. But the Pan we saw was intensely clever and not a bit lazy. He enjoyed the psychological mind games and trickery. He was even taking responsibility and showing a great deal of authority. Malcolm didn't seem intelligent or diligent enough to come up with elaborate plots and schemes spanning multiple worlds while manipulating multiple groups of people. That's too much like work. He seems closer to the book Peter, where he was truly immature and fun-loving, who'd have kidnapped boys to give himself playmates and then brought on someone to be "mother" and cook and clean for them so he wouldn't have to worry about things like food and clothes. Unless maybe the Shadow that created Peter Pan out of Malcolm was possessing him and influencing him somehow, kind of like the Dark One affecting Rumple.

[stealinghome]

bahahahaha if Emma believes that, she just took over for Snow as stupidest person on the show. By a lot.

[KingOfHearts]

I was rewatching the Pilot and I found some inconsistencies in it.

 

* Snow claims Regina poisoned an apple because she thought she was prettier than her, which wasn't the case.

* Charming is apprehensive about going to Rumple for help like he's some forbidden evil, but he's dealt with Rumple like three times before. In fact, Rumple had just helped him get to Snow to save her.

* One of the prison guards claims that if Rumple knows your name, he holds power over you. This never comes up again on the show.

Edited August 28, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I posted on the Magic thread as well. I was browsing Adam's twitter, and he was responding to a very reasonable tweeter about Graham. He's claiming that even after the Curse broke, Emma thought Graham died of natural causes, and she had no proof of anything else. So she did not confront Regina. https://twitter.com/adamhorowitzla/status/504008746646118400

 

Bullshit. They told Matt Mitovich from TV Line that a scene where Emma confronts Regina (in 1x22, immediately after she touches the book and "sees" FTL) was filmed but deleted. It was part of the same scene where Emma grabs Regina and yells at her, and originally she also said something about her killing Graham.

 

But I mean, if they want to have Emma realize now that Graham was murdered I wouldn't complain (except for how stupid she looks for not knowing earlier - Henry told her), IF she gets to be pissed at Regina.

[scarynikki12]

Most shows have inconsistencies from the pilots.  Very few manage high consistency after the pilot gets picked up.  I think they did originally plan for Regina's motive against Snow to be the shallow one from the story.  Then they were picked up, got to know Lana some more, and made the changes.  I do kind of wish that Snow, at least, was under the impression that Regina was trying to kill her for being pretty and then learned about Daniel shortly before or after the Curse. 

 

I think Rumpel was also supposed to be way more of a consistent threat than he turned out to be.  I don't know if he was originally the creator of the Curse or not, or if he was ever supposed to be anything other than evil, but I do think that, whatever the original plans for him, they got the series pick up and decided to embrace Robert and fleshed out the character beyond the pure evil entity the pilot presents him as. 

[Jean]

 

I think Rumpel was also supposed to be way more of a consistent threat than he turned out to be.  I don't know if he was originally the creator of the Curse or not, or if he was ever supposed to be anything other than evil, but I do think that, whatever the original plans for him, they got the series pick up and decided to embrace Robert and fleshed out the character beyond the pure evil entity the pilot presents him as.

 

I don't think Rumple or Gold was presented as the pure evil in the pilot. He was more the mysterious and unknown factor. I think S1 was pretty much the only tightly planned season and story from the beginning. I think they were well aware that Rumple was the big shot plotting everything from the beginning. Considering they wrote the character with Robert in mind I'm sure they knew exactly what they were going to get with Robert in the role.

 

We saw that Gold regained his memory in the pilot upon hearing Emma's name. We were introduced to Bae pretty early in the season and both Jen and Robert have said that they knew who Henry's father was since the beginning of the series.

 

The only thing that I think might've changed and been influenced by fan reaction was Rumbelle after Skin Deep. They've been struggling to write for Rumbelle as a couple and fit Belle onto the canvas ever since. 2 seasons later and they still haven't figured that out.

[Shanna Marie]

Snow claims Regina poisoned an apple because she thought she was prettier than her, which wasn't the case.

That one doesn't really bother me as a continuity issue because it came across to me as her being rather snarky about it rather than that they were establishing the real reason. Since they were building to the real reason, I didn't expect them to give it away in the pilot, and since she was talking to Charming, who knew what they'd gone through, it would have been a "as you know, Bob" conversation. And for pilot purposes, it ties into the established fairy tale that they then went on to deconstruct.

 

In a way, it does sort of fit, metaphorically. Regina's vengeance on Snow wasn't strictly about Daniel's death. She blamed Snow for destroying her happiness, so that every unhappy moment in Regina's life after that point was Snow's fault, and Snow being at all happy also added to Regina's unhappiness. We've seen that she couldn't handle the fact that Snow was loved more than she was, whether by her father or by the people, when she believed Snow to be a monster that other people couldn't see. So, in a sense, Snow being loved (being pretty) was why Regina hated her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow being loved (being pretty) was why Regina hated her.

When she took the apple though, that wasn't the issue - they were at the stables, and Regina wanted revenge over Daniel's death. I agree Snow's prettiness and persona was definitely in question in other episodes (The Evil Queen, for example), but when she said that in the pilot, it was definitely a callback to the original fairytale because the rest of the season wasn't pieced together yet. It felt like almost comic relief to me, the way she said it.

 

 

I don't think Rumple or Gold was presented as the pure evil in the pilot.

 

I dont think he was either, but his craziness levels were definitely way higher than usual, mostly with the acting. Robert was still getting a feel for the character. I find it funny how Charming and Snow were referring to him as "him" instead of his name, like he was some taboo or something. Rumple is just so creepy in the first few S1 flashbacks. He mellows out a little bit in That Still Small Voice. Before that I was reading almost Gollum vibes!

Edited August 28, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

It's clear that they developed the Regina/Snow backstory after they had shot the pilot, which I understand can happen months in advance. Rumple's portrayal is different too. I remember seeing a deleted scene where he was laughing like a crazed maniac in that prison. All that stuff about not telling him their names was changed as they further fleshed him out. 

[Shanna Marie]

All that stuff about not telling him their names was changed as they further fleshed him out.

That's something I wish they'd kept because it's common in folklore, especially that dealing with fae creatures -- if someone has your name, they have power over you -- and it fit with the Rumpelstiltskin story, which was about finding a secret name. I was a little disappointed that when they did the actual Rumpelstiltskin story with the miller's daughter, guessing his name wasn't part of it. Yeah, everyone knew his name after that, but it would have worked if he'd been known as The Dark One and few people knew his true name because the village coward Rumpelstiltskin was long forgotten by that time. It would have been just like Cora to broadcast his name far and wide once she knew it, just to screw with him, so by the time the Charmings were around, they'd have known it.

[Jean]

 

but his craziness levels were definitely way higher than usual, mostly with the acting. Robert was still getting a feel for the character. I find it funny how Charming and Snow were referring to him as "him" instead of his name, like he was some taboo or something. Rumple is just so creepy in the first few S1 flashbacks.

 

Yeah the scene in the cave with the Charmings was probably Rumple at his most over the top and crazy intense but I do think it works in the context of the story. It could've been deliberate. Emma's name was the last thing he needed to get to Bae and probably the easiest and simplest thing to get out of everything that had lead up to that point. He was this close to his son and he could taste it. I think this is a detail that came later but then we saw that scroll in the jail where he obsessively wrote Emma a million times, so I do think it's perfect that he dropped the carefree giggly act this one time and you could see the desperation.

 

Also the further we got along the season, we were moving backwards in the timeline from that prison scene. So I could see him still being mellow and putting on an act until he got that much closer to the curse getting enacted.  I do agree that the flashbacks of the Charmings with Rumple don't really mesh especially those in S2 and S3 but we know the fairybacks suck in those seasons anyway. They didn't act scared of him until that prison scene. 

 

 

if someone has your name, they have power over you -- and it fit with the Rumpelstiltskin story, which was about finding a secret name. I was a little disappointed that when they did the actual Rumpelstiltskin story with the miller's daughter, guessing his name wasn't part of it.

 

Yeah I loved Miller's Daughter but that was one detail I wished they would've kept. It would've been a good reason for why Rumple agreed to teach Cora magic and why he fell for her cause she outsmarted him. As for Rumple having power over knowing someone's name, he did have power over Emma's life.  We saw her come to that realization in his fake prison cell and we've seen how the curse affected her life. I suspect that's all they wanted that name line for.

[KingOfHearts]

Does anyone else find most of the episodes to be un-rewatchable? I find many of them to be boring, all three seasons, because I already know what happens. Some shows I can watch multiple times, but in Once I really don't find that much entertainment in the stories themselves. I'm more interested in what's going to happen next. There are a few episodes I love rewatching, for sure. (Skin Deep, A Land Without Magic, Going Home). But going through the series before S4 starts has felt like a chore. Most of the episodes just don't bring me much enjoyment.

 

I find myself only caring about spoilers and the show's future. I love the show's "universe", but the content itself is really only engaging the first few times. I'm not a big shipper, so I don't "Squee!" at every CS moment, either. What really piqued my interest at first was the storylines and twists, but that hasn't really been the show's strong suit lately.

 

I can guarantee I'll be on the edge of my seat in S4, though! ;)

Edited August 31, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

Oh my God, the retconning of Leopold, Ava and Cora in Bleeding Through is so annoying. As is the bonding between Snow and Regina.

 

So Ava had a dark side because she didn't let Cora trick Leopold into a marriage when she was pregnant by the gardener? Whatever. Yeah, she may have been doing it for selfish reasons, but that's hardly being evil.

 

The whole episode makes me roll my eyes.

[RadioGirl27]

Oh my God, the retconning of Leopold, Ava and Cora in Bleeding Through is so annoying. As is the bonding between Snow and Regina.

 

So Ava had a dark side because she didn't let Cora trick Leopold into a marriage when she was pregnant by the gardener? Whatever. Yeah, she may have been doing it for selfish reasons, but that's hardly being evil.

 

The whole episode makes me roll my eyes.

Yeah, I hate this episode so much. Even my mom (who doesn't see anything wrong in naming Snowflake Neal) thought this episode is ridiculous and that Ava didn't do anything wrong.

[Crimson Belle]

Yeah, I hate this episode so much. Even my mom (who doesn't see anything wrong in naming Snowflake Neal) thought this episode is ridiculous and that Ava didn't do anything wrong.

But this is Once Upon a Time, where acting/reacting like a normal and moral person, such as Ava telling Leo, Snow killing Cora in self defense/defense of others, everyone hating Regina and being distrustful of her is BAD with all capital letters, while acting like a sociopath, doing evil deeds and blaming your own bad choices on others is perfectly normal morality and the preferred course of behavior.

[FurryFury]

I'm a Cora fan and I hated Bleeding Through so damn much. It retconned her character and motivations to shit. I don't care about Ava at all, but I don't want to see Cora as anyone's victim. She was a manipulator and a magnificent bitch, even getting one over Rumple (if temporary).This is the Cora I enjoyed, not an easily duped girl being way over her head. And don't even get me started on how the ep destroyed Leopold's character or the plot holes this retcon created in "The Stable Boy".

[Curio]

God, fucking Bleeding Through. (Sorry, are we allowed to swear here? I know TWoP was okay with it. Meh, I'll leave it... this episode deserves it.) I consider that episode the worst in the entire series, and that includes all of Season 2B. I honestly cannot comprehend why the writers thought it would be a good idea to devote an entire episode to a bunch of irrelevant ancestor characters no one really cares about and destroy some of their established show history in the process. The fact that Zelena dies like 2 episodes after Bleeding Through just makes it even more pointless.

 

At this point, I just have to laugh at the fact that the writers would rather write an entire episode devoted to a bunch of characters we'll probably never see again than actually take the time to develop the real-time relationships of the main characters in Storybrooke. Or, you know, actually take the time to show some flashbacks of the main characters who are sorely needing them (i.e. Emma).

[Jean]

I'll rewatch certain scenes but I can't sit through entire episodes again. I can't even do that for new episodes anymore. I'll watch certain clips for certain characters and get the gist of the bigger picture through chatter on here. Bleeding Through was the last straw.

 

The worst part is the newer episodes taints my enjoyment of some of the older episodes that I loved/liked. Bleeding Through ruined Miller's Daughter and Cora a bit for me even though that's still my favorite all time episode. Rumbelle post S1 tainted Skin Deep. I still can't believe how they utterly destroyed the charm of Belle and Rumbelle from Skin Deep. Hat Trick is the lone exception. Thank you whomever that Sebastian Stan is too big for this dinky show.

[KingOfHearts]

Bleeding Through is easily the weakest episode of S3.

 

I agree with the posters above that it totally tainted Young Cora. It was definitely a victim story just like The Stable Boy. While I fancy the idea of a rivalry between Cora and Ava, the playing field was slanted so far that you can't even really call it that where the show's concerned. Overall the flashbacks were very boring and uninteresting because they were so contrived and mostly irrelevant to the plot.

 

The seance was such a snore. The only good part of this episode is the CS scene at Granny's.

Edited September 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I did like the overhead shot of them all at the séance (because the five of them holding hands around a round table looked vaguely like a pentagram from above, which I thought was a neat touch) and I adored Emma's little magic show, but beyond that? This ep just made me angry. Because I'm sorry but are we really supposed to see Cora as the victim here? Cora was lying. Eva was stopping Leopold from marrying a woman under false pretenses. Yeah, she could have been less bitchy about it, but Cora was trying to get away with a deceit. She's not exactly innocent, here. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Writing Wrongs]

Even if Snow is all about forgiving Regina for Enchanted Forest past stuff, what about the more recent past crap she's done? Did she forget that Cora killed Johanna in front of her with Regina standing with her and gloating?

 

How Regina deserves a happy ending is beyond me. 

[Shanna Marie]

Even if Snow is all about forgiving Regina for Enchanted Forest past stuff, what about the more recent past crap she's done? Did she forget that Cora killed Johanna in front of her with Regina standing with her and gloating?

That's an issue with just about everyone's relationships with Regina. In season one, Henry was afraid of her. She was gaslighting him and using him to strike blows against Emma, not even caring that she was hurting him. While Emma may not have had the chance to think back post-curse and realize that Regina really did murder Graham, Henry knew all along that Regina was responsible for murder. I don't see how he can now be so okay with her that his side of a True Love Kiss could have worked. I could have seen their relationship gradually healing as she tried to show him she'd changed and as she went for longer stretches of time without murdering anyone, framing anyone for murder or abusing everyone, but it seems unlikely to me that he'd go so quickly to full-on true familial love and eager to split his time between Emma and Regina. And that's just one example.

 

How Regina deserves a happy ending is beyond me.

I'm not opposed to her eventually getting a happy ending, but they've skipped too many steps too quickly. She's done so much evil that she needs at least a little karmic comeuppance. She needs to make a sacrifice that actually sticks and that isn't instantly undone. She needs a little suffering that she realizes she brought on herself. She needs to acknowledge her own mistakes and at least try to atone for them. She needs to stop blaming others for everything that goes wrong in her life. She needs to stop being just handed all the good things without having to work for them. Then I would be okay with her getting a happy ending. I'm not okay with them flipping the evil/good switch and turning her instantly from the worst evil ever to the lightest good with the truest love without any real transition. I love a good redemption story, but flipping a switch is only interesting when it's a former genie from another world who's utterly fascinated by electricity.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

Even if Snow is all about forgiving Regina for Enchanted Forest past stuff, what about the more recent past crap she's done? Did she forget that Cora killed Johanna in front of her with Regina standing with her and gloating?

 

Mmmm, I wouldn't put Johanna's death on Regina. Even if Regina was against killing Johanna, there's no way she could have stopped Cora from doing it at the time. At the point, I think Regina was in full-on daughter mode and followed her mother around. The present stuff I'd definitely put on Regina is Graham's death, the failsafe attempt, trying to kill Snow by sending her to the town line, framing Snow for murder, trying to "kill" Emma with the apple turnover, etc. Regina wasn't totally innocent with the Johanna thing, but there's dirtier dirt she's pulled in Storybrooke.

 

How Regina deserves a happy ending is beyond me.

 

ITA with Shanna Marie on this one. I would like Regina to have a happy ending, but she needs to be purified with fire first before she can be a changed woman. To put it in simpler words, she needs to go through some tough circumstances that make her realize she's responsible for them. She's still got a bunch of crap inside her from her deeds in the past, and she can't get rid of it without dealing with it. Once she makes that step, I'll cheer her redemption arc on.

 

 

Henry knew all along that Regina was responsible for murder.

When Henry told Regina in Going Home, "I should have just stayed with you and not gotten Emma", he was totally fine with letting Regina kill people as long as they were together and happy? That was such a selfish thing to say. He'd let an entire world remain cursed so he could stay comfortably with Regina. I really dislike Henry immensely...

Edited September 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Nah, screw it. As far as I'm concerned Regina deserves no happy ending and frankly I don't want to see her get one. She can rot in the lower reaches of Fairytale Hell for all I care. I wouldn't want her to get a "happy ending" anymore than Hitler.

 

With that said, I was willing to go along with a very well scripted redemption story ala Xena. But we ain't got shit. So any grain of goodwill I may have been able to summon towards Regina is gone. Burn in Hell, Regina. Burn in Hell.