A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Mari]

I suspect they originally intended to spin The Home Office off into its own legitimate magic vs. science storyline, one totally separate from Pan, and use Tamara and Greg as a gateway to doing so. But then when Tamara and Owen were despised by 99.9% of the fanbase, A&E decided (or were forced) to just cut their losses and drop that storyline all together.

 

There was way too much in Season 2 that was about magic vs. science--basically Whale's entire season story comes to mind--for me to believe that they didn't want to go there (especially since that was apparently a big theme on Lost?).

 

 

The worst thing with Greg/Tamara, it was a good idea, in its heart - real world fighting against magic, hell, you could build an entire show around this idea - but it was executed in such a hamfisted way, it's guaranteed to never be revisited again. And Owen himself could have a really interesting perspective/relationship with Regina, but of course he was made a villain, not her. Ugh.

I've wondered if the overwhelming fandom down thumb was because of the character concept of Greg and Tamara, or the actors performances. 

 

The magic/science things actually has a lot of potential--personally, what threw me off where the performances.  The woman who played Tamara was particularly terrible.  There were very few scenes where her "Acting!  I'm Acting!  Wait--'m not acting!" didn't throw me off.  I've seen commentary that she was good in other things? 

 

I keep hoping that at some point they revisit magic/science, even if it means that because of season 2's weird Neverland detour, Pan and the Darling Hipsters accidentally set up an actual home office.

 

As for Greg being the villain instead of Regina?  Well, actually, I've realized that anyone who doesn't give Regina exactly what she wants very quickly--including support after Regina's killed their family, as well as eating that third helping of lasagna so she knows how very good it was--is obviously the villain.

[FurryFury]

The magic/science things actually has a lot of potential--personally, what threw me off where the performances.  The woman who played Tamara was particularly terrible.  There were very few scenes where her "Acting!  I'm Acting!  Wait--'m not acting!" didn't throw me off.  I've seen commentary that she was good in other things?

 

I really doubt the performances were at fault. Tamara was specifically written so we'd hate her. She messes with August, she seduces Neal (who's Emma's main love interest in 2b) and she even cheats on him! She's 100% unlikable and a cardboard cut-out bad guy to boot. We never learn of her motivations, there isn't a freudian excuse backstory or a pet the dog moment anywhere (sorry for my TVtrope slang, I hope it's possible to understand me :) ). No actress could have done anything with this atrocious writing.

 

As for Greg being the villain instead of Regina?  Well, actually, I've realized that anyone who doesn't give Regina exactly what she wants very quickly--including support after Regina's killed their family, as well as eating that third helping of lasagna so she knows how very good it was--is obviously the villain.

 

Well, Snow didn't surrender herself to be executed like a good little girl. Although, remembering the dark heart stuff in 2B, she almost became a villain, so you may be not far from the truth...

[Camera One]

But I remember feeling like 2A was super Whale-heavy.

 

Yeah, he was one of the few "lucky ones" to get 2 centrics in Season 2.  While Charming got none, even though it would fit the storyline for him to get one.  Anders was very charismatic on "Alias", so maybe it's just the writing for him on this show?  The actor who plays Sidney is supposed to be amazing, so I'm not sure if it's the writing but I found him really lacklustre on "Once" and also on "Revolution" (though that show really had horrific writing and probably one of the worst shows I've ever watched).

[stealinghome]

Yeah, based on only really having seen him on 'Once," I don't get the Giancarlo Esposito love either. I watched a few episodes of Revolution, before it got awful, and I thought he was one of the better actors on that show--but that's not saying much. But supposedly he was great on Breaking Bad, so.

 

Re: Greg and Tamara, I didn't think the actors were anything special, but I didn't fault them for the fact that I hated the characters. That was like 90-95% storyline, for me. In fact, I thought the Tamara actress especially made a valiant effort at humanizing what was literally a cardboard cutout character.

[Mari]

I really doubt the performances were at fault. Tamara was specifically written so we'd hate her. She messes with August, she seduces Neal (who's Emma's main love interest in 2b) and she even cheats on him! She's 100% unlikable and a cardboard cut-out bad guy to boot. We never learn of her motivations, there isn't a freudian excuse backstory or a pet the dog moment anywhere (sorry for my TVtrope slang, I hope it's possible to understand me :) ). No actress could have done anything with this atrocious writing.

 

Well, Snow didn't surrender herself to be executed like a good little girl. Although, remembering the dark heart stuff in 2B, she almost became a villain, so you may be not far from the truth...

You make sense, and you're right we were supposed to hate Tamara-the-character. 

 

What I meant is that did the fandom despise Greg and Tamara just because of the terrible characters they were, because of the terrible performances given, or because of the Magic/Real World storyline they were tied into? 

 

I forgot to differentiate between their characterization and their storyline topic, which are not always the same things.  (Sorry.)

 

And no, Snow didn't surrender.  What was she thinking?

[Camera One]

And no, Snow didn't surrender.  What was she thinking?

 

Maybe they can rework the song "Let It Go" from "Frozen", to Snow White/Mary Margaret singing "Kill Me Now" with her arms open wide.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

What I meant is that did the fandom despise Greg and Tamara just because of the terrible characters they were, because of the terrible performances given, or because of the Magic/Real World storyline they were tied into?

 

I think bad writing was the main reason. Yeah, the actors didn't have much charisma, but I doubt it could have helped that much. With Tamara, they didn't give her any backstory/motivation, gave us lots of reason to hate her, but didn't give any to like her or at least give a damn about her. The only character she had a connection with was Neal, who wasn't exactly a fan favorite himself. There were no "love to hate" moments a la Regina/Rumple were given in abundance. And with Greg, while he did have a sympathetic backstory, they've just failed with his personality/likability. 

So, I think, just yet another example of numerous writing fails in 2B. Nothing unusual, move along.

[Shanna Marie]

I liked the idea of Owen -- exploring what would have happened to that little kid from our world who got caught up in the curse -- but the execution of Greg was terrible, and it was outrageous that they turned someone with that backstory into a villain. Antagonist, yes, but he had very valid reasons to hate Regina and mistrust magic or to want to prove the existence of magic and of Storybrooke after having spent his life being told he was crazy or had imagined it. He's the sort of antagonist who should have been turned into an ally, since his Storybrooke experiences left him part of that world and a misfit in the "real" world. There are all these fairytale people living in our world, but what about people from our world being sucked into that world?

 

And I spoke too soon about season two not being as bad as I remembered. It pretty much all gets blown straight to hell at the end of "Queen of Hearts" when Regina lies to Henry about what she's up to and then conspires with Gold to make it so that anyone who comes through the portal will be killed. Yeah, there's saving the town (and herself) from Cora, but it seemed that what tipped the balance was Gold reminding her that she'd get to be Henry's only mother if Emma never came back. Even if it was saving the town from Regina, why would it be okay for her to do it but not okay when Snow did it later? Argh. Then she gets declared a hero for changing her mind and stopping doing an evil thing. No, that's called not being evil. It takes more than that to be a hero. Henry conveniently forgets that she lied to him and he had to tearfully plead with her to get her to stop it. Then Regina's Tears take star billing in the series as she sits and weeps about not being invited to dinner by the people she's spent years tormenting and trying to kill, when she hasn't said so much as one word of apology to them.

 

And it's all downhill from there, as in the next episode we get to see poor, sad Regina who doesn't seem to understand why no one wants to hang out with her at the party (again, tormented for years, tried to kill them, hasn't apologized or even said that she's done with all that). There have been a lot of complaints about Snow's insensitivity to her daughter, but what about Emma inviting to the party the woman who's dedicated her life to ruining Snow's life, who killed her father, tried to kill her, stole her kingdom, cursed her and had just been framing for murder, with no apologies and not even any indication that she's going to quit trying to kill her. That would be like inviting Rumple to Hook's birthday party, and they've even called an explicit truce, which Regina never has. It gets even more insane when they juxtapose that with Regina being shown mercy and still trying to kill Snow, after declaring that the only thing she regrets is not having killed more people. And yet, the whole thing is framed as though the people who think the worst of Regina because of their experiences with her are wrong and are the bad guys, so poor Regina has no choice but to team up with her evil mother that she was just days ago so desperate to keep out of town.

 

As I recall, it was around this point that I almost gave up on the series. I may even put my rewatch on hold for a while and catch up on some other series rewatches. I need to marathon this season of Orphan Black.

 

I don't know what Colin's broken leg really would have changed, except perhaps more subtle development for Hook, maybe a bit more interaction between him and Neal, and Hook spending a lot less time on the floor. I think it changed nuances, not the outright plot, other than perhaps they would have taken him back to Storybrooke as a prisoner on the Jolly Roger instead of leaving him chained up for Tamara to find and then later bring back to town (when the leg was apparently healed). Were they keeping the broken leg a secret, for some reason? In the video of the Paley Festival panel they did in season two, the moderator asked Colin about his limp, and Colin asked A&E if he was allowed to talk about it, then they gave him permission to explain that he broke his leg and they had to film around it. There were jokes that they did alternate takes in which Hook broke his leg. I wonder if that's real, and wouldn't you love to see those outtakes?

[Amerilla]

Reading through this, I wish they would have I wish they'd kept Hook "dark"-ish ("dark-lite"?) for at least all of S2.

 

How much more effective might the story in 3a have been if they had nixed Greg and Tamara and had Hook kidnap Henry on Pan's behest? All the elements could have been brought into play: the Darling Hipsters could have found Hook in NY and told him Rumpel was still alive and Pan had a way him and all he had to do was this one little job; he had the bean and the ship and knew the lay of the land in Neverland; they even could have made it two little jobs and had him off August for whatever bogus reason-that-couldn't-have-been-more-bogus-than-what-they-actually-did. Then had the Nevengers could have followed the JR to Neverland through one of the 9,452 Portals of Plot Contrivance they routinely pull out of their narrative asses. That could have been a better springboard for the start of his "redemption" arc, as he realizes that he's put the grandson of his great love in mortal peril and swings to the other side. Or something more profound than:  "After 300 years of fruitless effort, I've come to the conclusion that revenge is unsatisfying. Oh well, movin' on..."

 

And we all could have been spared Tamara.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Amerilla

[Camera One]

had Hook kidnap Henry on Pan's behest?

 

 

 

they even could have made it two little jobs and had him off August

 

I think they wanted to do an entire season on Hook's redemption and Emma gradually warming up to him.

 

If he had perpetrated those two crimes, I don't think Emma would have been able to look past them, and I definitely wouldn't blame her.  Hook/Emma would have been a no-go, at least for Season 3 or arguably, ever.  

 

They never did tell us what Hook was doing for Peter Pan in their little "arrangement".  So if they make it so that he knew about Wendy, that might change how I feel about him.  

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[kili]

If he had perpetrated those two crimes, I don't think Emma would have been able to look past them, and I definitely wouldn't blame her.  Hook/Emma would have been a no-go, at least for Season 3 or arguably, ever.

 

I have to agree. It would be hard to understand Emma ever agreeing to having a relationship with Hook after that. Most people would be cheering for his death. What mother would ever trust their child's kidnapper around their kid again?

 

Not to mention that it completely messes with his motivation. Hook was pretty focused on getting revenge for Milah. There was some collateral damage, but kidnapping Henry would be so far from his revenge motivation that it doesn't make sense. How do you redeem him when he's going to do violence for not particular reason?  Even if he's promised Pan to steal a kid for him, he's shown that he has no problem with double-crossing psychos (Cora, Regina, Greg/Tamara) and thwarting their goals. Why noit Pan? It would be hard to argue that he spent 300 years with Pan and couldn't figure out he was a bad guy you shouldn't steal your love interest's child for. 

 

Killing kids and dogs in tv shows and movies marks you as an uber-villian. Sure, Regina has been able to come back from killing random children she sent to the blind witch's house, but that happened off-screen. Participating in killing a child who is one of the central characters of a TV show is going to be incredibly hard to come back from. The audience isn't going to forgive you.

 

So if they make it so that he knew about Wendy, that might change how I feel about him.

He seemed pretty surprised that she was there. On the other hand, Tink knew her. I'm hoping that was from her first visit to Neverland. I'm hoping that Tink wasn't aware of the 100 years that Wendy spent in a cage, but she clearly had a closer  relationship to Pan than Hook did and she did know how to get to his camp (whereas Hook did not).

 

Is there any indication when Tink knew about Wendy and what she knew?

Edited July 11, 2014 by kili

[Serena]

Even if Tink knew about Wendy being in the cage, honestly, what could she have done? I wouldn't really think less of her even if she did

[Camera One]

Even if Tink knew about Wendy being in the cage, honestly, what could she have done? I wouldn't really think less of her even if she did

 

It doesn't look like she had any way out of Neverland.

 

She was angry at Regina, but I don't think she was plotting to go back to seek revenge.  She was just Bitter and Alone in Neverland.

[kili]

Even if Tink knew about Wendy being in the cage, honestly, what could she have done? I wouldn't really think less of her even if she did

 

She could have at least mentioned her to Emma and Co when they first talk to her about getting her help to find the camp. Tink could have mentioned that "Oh, by the way, I'm not helping you unless you help me rescue that poor girl Pan has had in a cage for the last 100 years".

 

She probably should have at least tried to use her friendship with Pan (she was on friendly terms with him and that is why she could gain access to the camp) to try to talk Pan into trying to get Wendy something better than a cage.  But who knows what Wendy was doing on the island. Somehow she ended up with a bunch of pixie dust which Pan didn't seem to know about.

[Shanna Marie]

That could have been a better springboard for the start of his "redemption" arc, as he realizes that he's put the grandson of his great love in mortal peril and swings to the other side. Or something more profound than:  "After 300 years of fruitless effort, I've come to the conclusion that revenge is unsatisfying. Oh well, movin' on..."

Actually, I think this scenario is less profound than what we got. It's way too much like Regina's season 2 "redemption" arc, in which the only reason she seems to have recognized she was at all wrong was that she hurt someone she cared about -- Henry -- so it looked like she was stopping doing bad things not so much because they were bad but because her doing bad things had hurt Henry.

 

As it was, Hook came to a realization that his actions were wrong, period. Not just because he'd hurt someone he cared about or because it went wrong and had unplanned consequences. While he was chained up at Neal's apartment, he thought he'd won, that he'd succeeded in killing Rumple because he got him with the poison that supposedly had no cure in this world. This was the culmination of centuries of work, a goal that had him doing things he hated (he clearly had some problems with taking Aurora's heart, considering he stopped in the middle of a fight to snag it from going through the portal and return it), allying with people he despised and doing awful things to people he actually liked. And even while he was thinking he'd won, he realized it was meaningless. It didn't bring him any kind of happiness or release or closure. He was still just as miserable as he'd been, so everything he'd gone through was a waste. Now he had nothing much left to live for, nobody who cared about him at all, and a lot of people who rightfully despised him. That started the questioning of what it was all about, and then as he was escaping and saving his own skin with the stolen bean, he recognized an opportunity to turn things around, seeing that he didn't have to keep on going the way he'd been going. I think that's a much more profound change than "oops, this kid I kidnapped turns out to have been Milah's grandchild," which makes it seem like it would have been okay if it had been some other random kid (kind of like Regina's "redemption," where you get the feeling she only thought the poisoning was bad because it hurt Henry).

 

If he had perpetrated those two crimes, I don't think Emma would have been able to look past them, and I definitely wouldn't blame her.  Hook/Emma would have been a no-go, at least for Season 3 or arguably, ever.

Yeah, you don't come back from that (unless you're Regina -- and actually, the fact that she kept hurting Henry in her revenge schemes is part of why I can't deal with her). Emma seems to have gotten past him locking her in the cell, likely because she recognized the fact that she'd already done pretty much the same thing to him and it might not have happened if she'd trusted him, but there's no way she'd look past him doing something to her kid.

 

Hook's redemption works for me because it wasn't about someone else. It was about measuring himself against a moral standard and realizing how short he fell, then wanting to make up for that. Emma may have provided him some motivation and gave him something other than himself to focus on, but it was never about "oops, I hurt someone I like, never mind all those other people I hurt who don't really matter."

[Camera One]

Emma seems to have gotten past him locking her in the cell, likely because she recognized the fact that she'd already done pretty much the same thing to him and it might not have happened if she'd trusted him

 

Replying in Happily Ever After.

[KAOS Agent]

 

That's one of the things that annoys me to death about the tale Adam and Eddie have spun for themselves: they claim that Regina never wins, but I look at the show and as far as I can see, Regina always wins. Seriously--when has she not won????

 

This is why I am so desperately hoping that Robin, Marian and Roland ride off into the sunset for a happily ever after together. Just once there needs to be a permanent negative consequence for her actions. That it would come because she chose her misplaced vengeance over the love Tinkerbelle told her she could have would make it all the better for me because Regina left the tavern with Robin in it all on her own. There's not one person to blame other than herself for not going in there and meeting him. It would be a consequence that is not part of a punishment or justice, it's the natural way of things that you don't always get a second chance.

[Shanna Marie]

I made the mistake of continuing the rewatch, and I just can't with Belle. This is another one of those cases where I can't tell what they really want to be saying here, and if they are saying what they seem to be saying, then what the hell, and it goes on the list of unintended messages they didn't realize they were sending. Hook was absolutely wrong to shoot her, since she wasn't the person he had a problem with, but I was ready to shoot her myself by the end of the episode, and I wouldn't have just winged her enough to push her over the border. Really, if all you knew of her was in this encounter, then you'd have to come to the conclusion that either she was utterly in thrall to the Dark One and needed to have the spell broken somehow, or she was as evil as he was because she could hear about and see the things he's done and still claim he was good (and then there was the stuff she didn't see, like him turning Smee into a rat).

 

There's the nerve of telling the man who was forced to watch while Rumple ripped out the heart of the woman he loved and crushed it, then cut off his hand that Rumple had a good heart, far better than his. Worse, she didn't seem at all bothered by the fact that Rumple murdered his wife for leaving him. At least they let Hook point out that she left of her own free will and had a right to do so without being murdered, and they let him point out the potential danger Belle was putting herself in because what happens if she tries to leave? And then after seeing Rumple beating a man nearly to death and enjoying it, she's still claiming that he has a good heart and has changed. Then the part that really gets me is that she's happily going with Rumple to the town border after this, apparently not having had any discussion with him about the revelation that he murdered his wife, and when even he asks her what her deal is in sticking with him, in spite of everything, she talks about how the good times make up for it. What good times? About the only truly kind thing I can think of him doing was helping Henry with the sleep curse nightmares. Otherwise, the "good" he's shown since Belle has known him has mostly consisted of him stopping short of beating or torturing someone to death if she yells, begs and cries enough. All her "he has a good heart" would make a lot more sense if she'd ever actually seen any evidence of it. And yet, I don't think we're supposed to see her as wrong or sadly deluded.

 

But, seriously, he murdered his wife for leaving him and blamed another man for "stealing" her, as though she had no right to make her own choices, when he heard directly from her that she left because she didn't love him and because she loved the other man, so she left of her own free will and there was no way to say that the other man kidnapped her. He was trying to kill the other man because his wife loved him. And he omitted this information when telling Belle about it. That's not just a red flag in a boyfriend. That's a stoplight. And yet she showed no sign of having a problem with it, not even taking a time out to think about it or insisting they talk about it, but instead continuing to say how good she knew he was. That may be the most screwed-up thing that has happened on this screwy show.

 

I wonder why they dropped that "where should we live?" plot with the Family Charming. Maybe it'll come back in the next season. Have they realized that they can't really choose to go back now, so it's not an issue and they don't have to pick a world? Henry was looking for apartments in Storybrooke, so maybe that'll settle the living space issue now that there's yet another person in the loft.

[kitticup]

I agree with your post Shanna Marie.  The other thing that bothers me is that Rumple essentially kidnapped Belle from her family.  He coerced her to be with him.  If anyone stole a woman, it would be Rumple not Hook.

 

The other thing that troubles me is Mo is perceived as being wrong for trying to keep his daughter away from Rumple.  If Belle was my daughter I would think she was under a spell and I would worry that she is being corrupted by Rumple. Everything Moe has ever seen of Rumple is evil.  Rumple kidnaps his daughter, who he kept in a dungeon.  He attacks his dukedom when he thinks Moe killed Belle.  Even as Gold who is not under the Dark One curse, Gold beats the heck out of Moe.  Than there are all the things Rumple has done to others.  Of course Moe would want to get his child away from a monster.

 

The closest modern day equivalent would be if my child fell in with a dangerous cult like the Mason family.  I would kidnap my kid and try to deprogram them so they don't end up killing innocent people and living as a brainwashed slave to a psycho. 

[YaddaYadda]

Belle is completely blind when it comes to Rumple and it will be her undoing in the end.  Belle's only loyalty is to Rumple, there is none to her father and I still don't get why he was even at the wedding.  You're telling me that this guy suddenly decided to let bygones be bygones?

 

Even if Hook has a rotten heart as she put it, Rumple still killed his wife because he couldn't accept that she left him and it was always more about her leaving him than her leaving Bae, I think and he couldn't accept that she fell in love with someone else, Belle should have at least considered the words.  But Hook is apparently a hell of a lot worst than Rumple.

 

What happens to Belle when she decides to leave Rumple?  Does he go batshit crazy and decide that she can't leave him?  We all know the dagger business is going to blow up in both their faces because Rumple will likely do something that will require Belle to pull him back using her fake dagger that won't work.

[Camera One]

Belle is completely blind when it comes to Rumple and it will be her undoing in the end.  Belle's only loyalty is to Rumple, there is none to her father and I still don't get why he was even at the wedding.  You're telling me that this guy suddenly decided to let bygones be bygones?

 

Let's hope she meets a Seer in Season 4 who tells her "Rumple will be your undoing".  

 

I have said this before, and it still makes me angry, and it really shows the writers have no interest in exploring the supporting characters, and Belle in particular as a "whole" character.  In the original story, Belle's sacrifice involved her love for her father.  On this show, her father is a complete jerk.  In some ways, the actor playing the father is not charismatic enough, but at the same time, on paper, we should have seen Belle forgiving her father, or her father dealing with her daughter dating the Dark One.  Since she's a regular, an entire episode should have been devoted to that (again, so many core characters were neglected that I am not actually advocating this, but on a well written show, that would have happened).  But nope, they just throw Belle's father in there happily legitimizing the wedding, even though none of Belle's supposed friends attended.  Is that because they disapproved or because they didn't feel like standing around in the forest at the dead of night or did they not get invited (she didn't learn the lesson of Maleficient?)?  What exactly was the hurry in getting married anyway?  So we could get that laughable montage of Belle's cheesy vows and Rumple's lying words superimposed upon the other characters?  

 

Speaking of Belle, they never explained/showed/justified her "I love all of Rumple, even the dark parts" or whatever she said, since that's sort of a large jump in her way of thinking.  Even with Neal in "Quiet Minds" and I think at the beginning of the season in the Enchanted Forest, suddenly, he says his father is really a good guy deep down, and he repeated that again in the flashback in the season finale.  Lines like that don't work when there was no build-up to it.  And clearly the writers didn't want to build up to it since they didn't bother allotting time to it!  

Edited July 12, 2014 by Camera One

[orza]

Belle already left Rumple three times and each time he let her go without a fight. He even said on several occasions, the latest being in Neverland, that he expects that one day Belle will see what a monster he is and leave him. So, no, I don't think Rumple will do anything to Belle if she leaves him. He even gifted Belle a library and an apartment after she left him. There is nothing in that scene to suggest Rumple had an ulterior motive for doing that.

 

Rumple didn't kill Milah because she left him or Bae. What caused him to snap was when Milah screamed at him that she never loved him. We saw in Manhattan that wasn't true. They were a young couple very much in love before Rumple went off to war. Milah's life wasn't in danger before she stupidly tried to rewrite their history together to get that jab in that would cut him to the quick.

 

The idea that Rumple would kill any woman who tried to leave him is not supported by canon.

 

[YaddaYadda]

Regarding the whole Belle thing, I was just being snarky.  Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.  I doubt he'll do anything to her, but I think he will revert completely to his old self.  I do hope they actually let him deal with the loss of his son.

[Shanna Marie]

Milah's life wasn't in danger before she stupidly tried to rewrite their history together to get that jab in that would cut him to the quick.

Does that in any way justify murdering her?

 

Also, was I hallucinating, or did Belle say something to Rumple while Rumple was trying to kill Hook about how Hook was trying to make him go dark? So it's the fault of the man being beaten that the person beating him is being bad. (I know it sounds like I have all kinds of domestic violence triggers, but I really don't from personal experience other than having helped build a shelter/retreat for battered women and heard the stories of some of the people I was working alongside. I just read the newspaper every morning, and this kind of crap happens just about every single day in the real world, and it makes me ill.)

 

You know what would have been a sign that Rumple had changed and really did have a good heart? If when he got to the Jolly Roger he'd intervened to keep Hook from hurting Belle, like maybe magically lashing him to the mast the way he did while he was killing Milah, then said, "I regret killing Milah. Sorry about the hand. I acted rashly. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need that shawl to go find my son," and then he'd left with Belle. Leaving Hook tied up on an invisible ship would have probably kept him out of commission long enough for Rumple to safely get out of town. But doing the exact same stuff he's been doing all along until someone nags him into stopping is not a sign of change.

[Camera One]

I doubt he'll do anything to her, but I think he will revert completely to his old self.

 

We can all bet how many episodes it will take before Belle takes him back, though.

 

f when he got to the Jolly Roger he'd intervened to keep Hook from hurting Belle, like maybe magically lashing him to the mast the way he did while he was killing Milah, then said, "I regret killing Milah. Sorry about the hand. I acted rashly. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need that shawl to go find my son," and then he'd left with Belle. Leaving Hook tied up on an invisible ship would have probably kept him out of commission long enough for Rumple to safely get out of town.

 

That whole situation was idiotic and contrived.  They just needed a way for Hook to suddenly appear at the town line, angrier than ever, to shoot Belle.  After that beating, it makes no sense that Hook would rebound like a spring chicken, and it makes even less sense that Rumple would leave Hook free to wander around.  But whatever, we needed Lacey too much to overthink this.

[Mari]

Rumple didn't kill Milah because she left him or Bae. What caused him to snap was when Milah screamed at him that she never loved him. We saw in Manhattan that wasn't true. They were a young couple very much in love before Rumple went off to war. Milah's life wasn't in danger before she stupidly tried to rewrite their history together to get that jab in that would cut him to the quick.

Um . . . I don't think that necessarily makes him killing her any less bad.

 

So she made him angry . . . and he snapped . . . and she should've known better?  Okay.

 

Belle better be careful what she says, then.

 

 

Speaking of Belle, they never explained/showed/justified her "I love all of Rumple, even the dark parts" or whatever she said, since that's sort of a large jump in her way of thinking.  Even with Neal in "Quiet Minds" and I think at the beginning of the season in the Enchanted Forest, suddenly, he says his father is really a good guy deep down, and he repeated that again in the flashback in the season finale.  Lines like that don't work when there was no build-up to it.  And clearly the writers didn't want to build up to it since they didn't bother allotting time to it!  

 

I've been pretty upfront about not liking Belle, so take this with that caveat. 

 

In some ways, they have shown she "loves all of him, even the parts that come from darkness."  She's left him, but only briefly.  Belle continually overlooks or ignores what evil things he does, as long as she doesn't have to watch too much of it, or clean up after it too much.  She's comfortable standing in a store full of his illicitly gained loot, demanding an (yes, I know Belle did deserve an apology, but timing?) apology from someone trying to help her.

 

Belle reminds me of fictional mob wives/girlfriends who know their husband should be in maximum security prison, but doesn't mind as long as he's home in time for supper, gives her shiny--or in her case, bookish--things, and doesn't get the blood on the dining room rug.

 

I don't think Belle would've given preDark One Rumple a second glance.  From the story they've written, she loves the power, and the sense that he gives her that she's "saving" him.

 

We'll see how she reacts, now that he's giving her a little of the same treatment he's given so many, many others that she's overlooked.

[angelwoody]

Belle reminds me of fictional mob wives/girlfriends who know their husband should be in maximum security prison, but doesn't mind as long as he's home in time for supper, gives her shiny--or in her case, bookish--things, and doesn't get the blood on the dining .

This. Belle is Karen from Goodfellas. She wants to see herself as a good person, better certainly than anyone else who is in a relationship with a not so sterling character. She loves her man because he's good to her, gives her a nice comfy life, and he's exciting, powerful and respected/ feared. But the thing is, you can look at your man through those rose-colored glasses all you want but eventually the bad stuff he does is going to start to rub off on you and the next thing you know, you're not his innocent, moral partner anymore. You're his accomplice.

Honestly, they could have addressed this pretty easily by having Belle have a big open house at the pawn shop when she thought Gold was dead, but instead she continued his business selling the things he had stolen back to the people he had stolen them from. I mean really, is that EVER going to be addressed on the show? Or are we just supposed to believe that "a deal is a deal" and it's all totally legit?

I have a huge problem with the character of Belle and the Rumbelle relationship because like so many things on OUAT, what the show is telling me and what the show is showing me are two very different things. I don't see a sweet romantic Beauty and the Beast story with those two. I see a huge imbalance of age, experience and power between a character that is at best dark gray and a character that the show wants us to see as goodness and light (which I can't quite buy).

My other problems will Belle (and I admit these are just personal peeves) are that I think the actress is among the weakest of the cast and that they dress her terribly. If they want me to buy her and Rumpel even superficially, they need to stop dressing her somewhere between a teenage Catholic school girl and a higher end prostitute.

Edited July 12, 2014 by angelwoody

[Serena]

I'm unsure if this info belongs here or if we could possibly open a "Writing and Writers" thread, but anyway, Christine Boylan, who's been on Once since season 2 and has written Tallahassee, Tiny, The Evil Queen, Good Form and Save Henry, is not going to be on Once anymore. She's working for Constantine. I loved Tallahassee and Good Form, liked Tiny, and hated The Evil Queen and Save Henry, so I'm unsure how to take this news.

[Camera One]

Wow, what a mixed bag.  Though a lot of those she co-wrote with a consulting producer (eg. Jane Espenson), so I wonder how the work-split worked.  

[stealinghome]

I hate to say it, but good riddance, because those are a lot of this show's weakest episodes and, if you don't like Hook, nothing that even cracks the Top 20.

 

Though she gets a few points back for being responsible for the conversation about Charming's name in 'Tiny.'

[angelwoody]

I've been doing a binge-re watch this week and I find that I didn't hate Neverland as much as I thought I would but I can't stand the WW as soon as She turned up. She should way 500 pounds for all the scenery she's chewing. In. Every. Scene. UGH.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Honestly, they could have addressed this pretty easily by having Belle have a big open house at the pawn shop when she thought Gold was dead, but instead she continued his business selling the things he had stolen back to the people he had stolen them from. I mean really, is that EVER going to be addressed on the show?

 

More disturbing than all of that stolen stuff (which Belle should not have any part in selling) is all of the mementos of Rumpel's past bad acts. Having Belle work in there with all of those reminders of how much Rumpel sucks is distressing. I mean, Geppetto's parents the puppets are in that shop. How sick is that? God knows what else is in there. 

 

 

Though she gets a few points back for being responsible for the conversation about Charming's name in 'Tiny.'

 

I'd give her points for the Regina/Emma/Snow quest to contact Henry in "Good Form".  That was some nice character stuff.

[Serena]

I think the way Jane explained the split work for Tallahassee (not sure if this works for every co-written episode) is that one of them wrote the flashbacks, the other wrote the present time, then they switched and re-wrote the other's work.

[Camera One]

I think the way Jane explained the split work for Tallahassee (not sure if this works for every co-written episode) is that one of them wrote the flashbacks, the other wrote the present time, then they switched and re-wrote the other's work.

Interesting... I guess that explains why sometimes one side is waaayy better than the other side.

[kili]

The idea that Rumple would kill any woman who tried to leave him is not supported by canon

 

He seems okay with them leaving him, but he's less okay with them replacing him.

 

He killed Milah when she told him that she never loved him and then maimed the man who loved her enough to die for her. He has since repeatedly tried to kill the guy (tried to Vader strangle him in the EF (3x21) and beat him to death until Belle stopped  him).

 

When Belle/Lacey started flirting with the Sheriff of Nottingham in Storybrooke, he beat the guy to a pulp. He also goes after Whale for daring to look at Belle/Lacey.

 

So, Belle can probably leave Rumple, but she better not ever get another boyfriend for her sake and the guy's sake. I would suggest she become a nun, but Rumple already hates them so he'd probably beat them up too.

[Camera One]

I was curious about who wrote which episodes, and if there was a pattern between them, so I looked them up out of curiosity.  

 

The centrics in brackets are arguable, and mainly based on the flashbacks portion.

 

It's also interesting that most of them wrote in teams of 2, usually the same two people together though there was one mix-and-match.

 

I'm not sure if there was a pattern or not.  Every writing team wrote some clunkers, and the better episodes were spread around... it's really disheartening when sometimes someone writes an awesome episode and also a downright terrible one.

 

TEAM: Eddy and Adam:

- The Heart of the Truest Believer
- Ariel (Snow)
- Going Home
- NYC Serenade
- A Curious Thing (Snowing/Regina)
- There's No Place Like Home

 

This one is obvious... Eddy and Adam write the premieres, finales and mostly multicentrics for the most part.  It's kind of strange they didn't write Part 1 of the Season 3 finale. 

 

TEAM: Andrew Chambliss & Kalinda Vazquez:
- Lost Girl (Snowing/Emma)
- Dark Hollow
- Kansas (Zelena)

 

Andrew Chambliss wrote 2 episodes by himself: The New Neverland (Snowing) and It's Not Easy Being Green (Zelena)

Kalinda Vazquez wrote 1 episode by herself: Quiet Minds (Neal/Belle)

 

I guess this team got the two unremarkable Zelena backstory episodes, or more specifically Andrew Chambliss did, if he wrote the flashbacks to Kansas.

 

TEAM: David H. Goodman & Robert Hull:
- Nasty Habits (Rumple)
- Think Lovely Thoughts (Rumple/Pan)
- Snow Drifts

 

David H. Goodman wrote 1 episode by himself: The Jolly Roger (Hook)
Robert Hull wrote 1 episode by himself: The Tower (Charming)

 

This team got the main Peter Pan flashbacks, and each guy wrote one of the male character centric episodes.

 

TEAM: Christine Boylan & Daniel T. Thomsen:

- Good Form (Hook)
- Save Henry (Regina)

 

All I can say is... I really hate "Save Henry".

 

TEAM OF ONE: Jane Espenson:

- Quite a Common Fairy (Regina)
- Witch Hunt (Regina)

 

Regina cry-fest.  At least in both of these episodes, Regina actually acted like she was sorry for something.

 

TEAM: Jane Espenson and Daniel T. Thomsen:

- Bleeding Through (Cora)

 

Sorry, good will thrown out the window for this horrible Regina-Cora-Zelena apologist episode.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I would suggest she become a nun, but Rumple already hates them so he'd probably beat them up too.

 

Well nuns are the brides of Christ, so you know...

[Mari]

More disturbing than all of that stolen stuff (which Belle should not have any part in selling) is all of the mementos of Rumpel's past bad acts. Having Belle work in there with all of those reminders of how much Rumpel sucks is distressing. I mean, Geppetto's parents the puppets are in that shop. How sick is that? God knows what else is in there. 

I'd forgotten about that. 

 

Well, that adds another layer of repulsive and creepy to the "Before I help you help my boyfriend, apologize to me while I hypocritically stand in my murderous boyfriend's stolen loot and trophy room." scene.

 

 

Huh--Camera One--I guess that writer's interview quiz you wrote for them is going to come in handy, now.

[ShadowFacts]

 

She loves her man because he's good to her, gives her a nice comfy life, and he's exciting, powerful and respected/ feared. But the thing is, you can look at your man through those rose-colored glasses all you want but eventually the bad stuff he does is going to start to rub off on you and the next thing you know, you're not his innocent, moral partner anymore. You're his accomplice.

 

So true, this is how they wrote Walt's wife on 'Breaking Bad'.  She eventually broke bad herself.  I don't think they want to write a sweet Beauty and the Beast relationship, they have twisted it into a dark thing that cannot end well.  Perhaps Belle can pull away from the beast who will never be a prince, and has retained enough of her own goodness to move on from this mess.  And since the schoolgirl/hooker costuming has to be deliberate, are they signalling her inner conflicts?  Or is she just retaining some of the Lacey we-are-both persona?

[InsertWordHere]

 

How sick is that? God knows what else is in there.

I wonder if the rose formerly known as Gaston had an enchantment on it or if he's dead.

[Shanna Marie]

I have a huge problem with the character of Belle and the Rumbelle relationship because like so many things on OUAT, what the show is telling me and what the show is showing me are two very different things.

That's my problem, as well, and sometimes they're even showing us two different things at the same time and apparently wanting both of them to be true. So we have Belle constantly harping about Rumple's good heart, but we very seldom see any evidence of it. It's not like there have been scenes where she spies on him and discovers him secretly doing good deeds. She has faith in him with almost no evidence, and with a lot of evidence to the contrary. They had that very emotional and romantic proposal scene in which he appeared to put his entire being into her hands -- and then it turned out the dagger was a fake, but then the writers tweet about how it was still a genuine proposal. But how can it be a genuine, truly meant, heartfelt proposal about him literally putting his life in her hands when the whole thing's a fakeout? There was the wedding ceremony in which they recite these meaningful, personal vows, all while knowing he's lying to her and has the real dagger, and they even show this, but at the same time I think we're supposed to find it romantic instead of seeing Belle as utterly delusional and getting herself into a bad situation. They want to have this sweet Beauty and the Beast romance, and yet they don't want to actually soften any of his edges to make him truly as good as she believes he is. And it really can't be both. You can't have a sweet, loving romance with her seeing his true heart when he's an unrepentant murderer who's still lying to her, deceiving her and using her as a cover-up and ultimate alibi so no one else can blame him for anything since he can say Belle controls him and she wouldn't let him do it.

 

One thing I'm curious about going forward is how well the truce between Hook and Rumple will hold. Hook seems to be pretty much over it -- he didn't seem to hold any animosity toward Past Rumple when they were time traveling, and he seemed to recognize that Rumple was being forced by Zelena to do stuff like kidnap and drown him, even quipped about not killing him with water this time. Rumple seemed truly apologetic when Zelena made him hurt Hook rather than enjoying taking advantage of the opportunity to break the truce and blame someone else, but it's hard to get a good sense of whether he's really over it, too, or if he was just holding the truce while they were trying to save Henry and he hated Zelena more than he hated Hook.

[angelwoody]

I would actually love it if they put some work into exploring Hook and Rumple. Can you ever become OK with the man who killed your love? The potential for rich exploration of characters, emotions, relationships, redemption and forgiveness is begging for attention. It could be so amazing but I suspect we'll just keep getting more of the new shiny toy of the week/ half season. It's too bad.

[kitticup]

I wonder if the rose formerly known as Gaston had an enchantment on it or if he's dead.

 

Or if Hook's hand is there?  In the Crocodile, he keeps the hand on display in dining room.  So who knows maybe it on the bedside table Bell sleeps next too.

[kili]

Or if Hook's hand is there?  In the Crocodile, he keeps the hand on display in dining room. So who knows maybe it on the bedside table Bell sleeps next too.

 

She probably got used to dusting it while she was Rumple's maid. Perhaps she uses it as a doorstop in the new house.

 

I would actually love it if they put some work into exploring Hook and Rumple. Can you ever become OK with the man who killed your love?

 

Emma doesn't seem to mind the woman who killed her boyfriend (Graham) or burned her Mom at the stake. The victims are rarely allowed to complain.

 

Rumple and Hook did kind of work together in an uneasy detente on the Neverland and Time Travel escapades. I wonder if Rumple is going to be bothered by Hook dating his son's love interest? He knows there is something there because he witnessed Zelena threatening Hook and ordering him to drown him, yet he did seem to be almost apologetic about throwing them into barn walls.

 

I don't think Rumple/Hook should ever be BFFs.

[maryle]

 The writer is playing with tree level of lecture at the same time.
1 You can choose to look at it as tale about romantic, very Disney love story and soapy at a time. The cheaper way.

2 They wish to go deeper , darker and dare pretend to Shakespeare or Grec tragedy

3 the new shiny toy and genial plot twist above any of the two above.
So everyone is unsure about the real message of the story anymore!
Some just Rumbelle and Outlaw Queen is in love and others cares the deeper human struggle Rumple's déception

How Regina deal with her past… And you have the one you want Oz, Frozen… It is a recipe for confusion and deceit for the fans. Because nobody is really satisfied with what they got from the show

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Rumple/Hook should ever be BFFs.

 

 

I think it's enough to have Regina and Snow being "BFFs".  I might just gag if they ever go down that route with Rumple/Hook.  I'm pretty confident they won't but I don't think I can handle more Kumbaya moments.  Uneasy truce, ignore each others' existence...

[KingOfHearts]

 

It is a recipe for confusion and deceit for the fans. Because nobody is really satisfied with what they got from the show

Sometimes I don't know if the show is going for semi-realism or its trying to be a full-fledged Disney movie. I can totally handle the unrealistic morals, the crazy character development, some of the plot holes and the fantasy candy, but... character balancing. The Oncer fandom is incredibly geared toward and adamant about its favorite characters and ships. OUAT has so many characters, that more often than not, some characters get more spotlight than others. Well-rounded character balance is very difficult on this show because of a multitude of problems that are quite plain to see.

 

Some of the reasons character imbalance is present:

- The writers have their favorite characters that they give more screen time to.

- Some characters are more interesting than others, causing some to fall to the wayside.

- New characters are introduced almost every episode, drawing focus away from the main cast.

- There are so many romantic couples on the show. Singles don't get the same amount of TLC.

- Marketing gimmicks, such as Oz or Frozen, distract from the main cast's storylines.

- More thought goes into plot twists and reveals than the actual character-journeying leading up to them.

 

In my opinion, the fandom would be able to put up with a lot if character balancing issues weren't so glaring. From my perspective, a lot of us watch because we have favorite characters and ships we like to root for. I begin to lose interest when my favorite character is sidelined or isn't going anywhere.

Edited July 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

[...] But how can it be a genuine, truly meant, heartfelt proposal about him literally putting his life in her hands when the whole thing's a fakeout? There was the wedding ceremony in which they recite these meaningful, personal vows, all while knowing he's lying to her and has the real dagger, and they even show this, but at the same time I think we're supposed to find it romantic instead of seeing Belle as utterly delusional and getting herself into a bad situation. They want to have this sweet Beauty and the Beast romance, and yet they don't want to actually soften any of his edges to make him truly as good as she believes he is. And it really can't be both. You can't have a sweet, loving romance with her seeing his true heart when he's an unrepentant murderer who's still lying to her, deceiving her and using her as a cover-up and ultimate alibi so no one else can blame him for anything since he can say Belle controls him and she wouldn't let him do it.

 

I think that's one of the problems actually. They don't want to have this B&B romance. They basically were forced into it after Belle proved popular. But she wasn't part of their original plans, at all, and they aren't willing to change them to include her, and they aren't willing to kill her off because it'd piss off the Rumbellers (and I also suspect they may not be allowed).

 

One thing I'm curious about going forward is how well the truce between Hook and Rumple will hold. Hook seems to be pretty much over it -- he didn't seem to hold any animosity toward Past Rumple when they were time traveling, and he seemed to recognize that Rumple was being forced by Zelena to do stuff like kidnap and drown him, even quipped about not killing him with water this time. Rumple seemed truly apologetic when Zelena made him hurt Hook rather than enjoying taking advantage of the opportunity to break the truce and blame someone else, but it's hard to get a good sense of whether he's really over it, too, or if he was just holding the truce while they were trying to save Henry and he hated Zelena more than he hated Hook.

If they ever cared to show it, it would be interesting to see how Rumple would take Hook taking his son's place in Emma's life (and maybe Henry's) like he did in his. How does he feel like the women in his family's life contantly choosing Hook over him and his son? (I know that's not exactly what happened, but I could see Rumple seeing it that way). 

[maryle]

I totally get it, everyone has their favorite character on the show. I do , this hear it has been captainsawn . But the season I consider the best is the first without Hook, because the story was stronger and organic. I understand the plot, the character and the creativity of the story. After that, slowly they become more soapy instead to really go deeper with their own mythology.
(Rumble should be really a tragedy more than Disney…..)

but at the end of the day it is the story who matters the most to me. Not how many times Hook and Emma kissed or Robin and Regina or put Rapunzel in there just to do it without any reason.(other than twist)

[myril]

 The writer is playing with tree level of lecture at the same time.

1 You can choose to look at it as tale about romantic, very Disney love story and soapy at a time. The cheaper way.

2 They wish to go deeper , darker and dare pretend to Shakespeare or Grec tragedy

3 the new shiny toy and genial plot twist above any of the two above.

So everyone is unsure about the real message of the story anymore!

Some just Rumbelle and Outlaw Queen is in love and others cares the deeper human struggle Rumple's déception

How Regina deal with her past… And you have the one you want Oz, Frozen… It is a recipe for confusion and deceit for the fans. Because nobody is really satisfied with what they got from the show

 

Not so sure about the 2nd one. I can see it in the the stories, a potential of something more, profound, Shakespeare, Greek tragedy and drama, but I have more and more doubts that the writers actually put it there. Considering it to be more my head canon so to speak, grew up with a different view on fairy tales and that sure has effects on my perception of Once, or how I read some of the stories. There was a huge influence on my ideas and images of fairy tales by darker, more gruesome versions of fairy tales, the Grimm Brothers and others like Wilhelm Hauff (Hauff's tales could be better described as supernatural horror fairy tales, not actually for kids but somehow ended up being told to kids), Nibelungen,  Norse and Greek mythologies. So more the type for the Grimm (tv show) version than Once, and I would prefer Grimm if that show would have a woman as lead.

 

I loved the Disney animation movies for being colorful fun, but it probably tells volumes that my favorite Disney movies are Robin Hood and Junglebook while I more hatewatched the princesses movies (mentioned before even developed an allergy against all this princess stuff, took me decades to overcome the prejudice that princess can't be nothing else but some boring, sweet, shallow-minded beauties cursed to be rescued by some shallow-minded, nameless six-pack beaus). Disney still is mostly fluffy and rather shallow fun to me, including even Frozen (the animated movies,  the new live-action Maleficent movie is a different thing). It's okay, Shakespeare did that too, just have some fun stories to entertain.

 

Not saying one excludes the other, though it is the toughest thing to do in writing, to tell a story enjoyable on different levels, but  the writers of Once are not that brilliant, though occasionally they might have a moment of brilliance.

 

The audience, we, are reading a lot of things into the show, its stories and characters  (that the writers might not have intended in some cases). It is one of the great things of Once, that one can read into it, and quite different things, but as well it is its biggest problem. It speaks to a diverse audience, but that audience has sometimes very divergent and even opposing interpretations and hopes for the show.

 

 

In my opinion, the fandom would be able to put up with a lot if character balancing issues weren't so glaring. From my perspective, a lot of us watch because we have favorite characters and ships we like to root for. I begin to lose interest when my favorite character is sidelined or isn't going anywhere.

 

I have my favorite characters, and sure love to see them with good story lines. But what I favor even more is good story telling. So far I haven't given up watching any show because of a character being sidelined or leaving (on one of my favorite shows by now all of the character and cast has changed), but I've given up on shows where I still loved characters but the story telling went down the drain. Still have some geek fun watching the show, but otherwise my love for it turned more into hatewatching by now, which has little to do with the lack of Red (my fav character, making her the wolf was brilliant) but with stories and plots becoming ridiculous in a bad way, and lack of main character development. It's not about screentime (quantity never equals quality, see Rumple) nor bringing in new characters every episode, the latter worked quite nice in the first season. They turned Regina into a flashy, mental, fairy tale evil caricature of the celebrity kind, giving her sorry excuses for doing evil, no regrets and let her look like the most misunderstood innocent soul of them all, while Snow was turned into a tumbling fool, and Emma is close to becoming the bad guy in the view of some people. The dubious morals of the show as much as their rushed and mediocre story telling is the problem, only somewhat buried by the loud squabble about favorite characters and ships in the fandom.

 

Some character get the attention and others are just supporting characters,though opinions in the fandom differs who is just supporting. I for one don't see anything but supporting characters in Belle, Hook, Robin, Neal and even less in others like Red, Granny, the dwarfs, the fairies or Mulan, Aurora and Phillip. An episode about one of them can help to paint the worlds of Once in more detail, can be okay in giving the main characters and their stories a breather, but I don't see a lack of Belle or Hook stories on the show. I would love to explore the background of Red, would probably watch the hell out of a miniseries with her adventures and giving her more depth, because really love that character, but on this show she is a supporting character, no more no less, missing her because she was presenting friendship, a welcomed relief to all the family and romantic drama, but don't see any need for more Red centric episodes. I liked seeing Belle's adventure with Mulan, i was a nice filler episode, a breather, but that was it, and I have no interest in more Belle centric stories.

 

There is one thing the main characters lack and that is diversity, and there is nearly as little of that with the supporting characters, but that is a different discussion.

 

The most vocal fandom might be the once watching the show mostly for their favorite character or ship, but the fandom is diverse if it comes to who the favorites are, who deserves more story, who even is main character and who just supporting, and pleasing all is impossible, there always will be some character fans displeased. Writing good stories though could be in the realm of the doable.

Edited July 13, 2014 by katusch