A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

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That has never made sense to me. He duped her into murdering her own father to cast the curse, the curse wasn't what she really wanted, and he planned for it to fail. On top of that, her mother was killed to save his life. And she happily co-exists with him? She never schemed to get revenge on him?

She also had no qualms with Cora. Redeemed!Regina was still blaming Snow, even after finding out her mother fabricated everything. Not only that, but even after discovering she and Snow were victims of the feud between their mothers, she still didn't apologize or really come to terms with Snow. She kind of did in 6x01 when she said she was a horrible stepmother, but we all know it was more (*ahem*) complicated than that. Regina had no reason to be angry with Snow. It's hard for me to pin all the blame on her, since I actually find it out of character that she didn't turn on Cora or Rumple. I am, however, still bitter about her hypocritical speech to Zelena.

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He made the one attempt with the Wraith, and then it was like he shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, I tried." (And I'm not sure why the heroes bothered saving Regina from the Wraith. At that point in the story, she more than had it coming.)

Supposedly they saved Regina because Emma promised Henry she would protect his mom. Which, is kind of weird when you think about it. At the time, Henry wanted nothing to do with Regina. He believed she was rotten to the core. He never believed she could redeem herself in any point in S1. Even in 2A, he didn't start trying to work with her until after she apologized to him in 2x02. Him making a promise to Emma was meant to mean he still cared about her, but that kind of came out of nowhere. Yes, in any sensible world, Henry wouldn't want his mother to be burned at the stake. Even if she was abusive. But, from a writing standpoint, we had never seen him care about her up to that point. So it was kind of abrupt.

Edited June 14, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

If Henry hadn't walked in, Regina would have strangled Charming after Snow and Emma fell into the Hat with the Wraith.  She doesn't even have a sense of honor.

[andromeda331]

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If Henry hadn't walked in, Regina would have strangled Charming after Snow and Emma fell into the Hat with the Wraith.  She doesn't even have a sense of honor.

That really should have given Henry more reason to stay away from Regina and weary of her even after she apologizes in the next episode. The Curse hadn't been broken very long and she's already trying to kill someone. His grandfather who just helped save her life at Henry's request. He asked them to help save Regina, and then walks in on her strangling Charming?

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That would have made a lot more sense for a Final Battle (TM) than a character who only just now appeared and who doesn't really have any relationship or history with anyone but Rumple. While they went a bit overboard with every villain having a deep, personal connection with one of the main characters, this one just seemed irrelevant, in spite of being a relative. In spite of that blood tie, Rumple himself had no relationship with her. No one but Blue (who was strangely offscreen for most of this) knew her. She just came out of nowhere, not connected to anything, and without any reason for doing what she was doing other than prophecy. A climactic final battle should have involved more of the characters.

That has never made sense to me. He duped her into murdering her own father to cast the curse, the curse wasn't what she really wanted, and he planned for it to fail. On top of that, her mother was killed to save his life. And she happily co-exists with him? She never schemed to get revenge on him?

He made the one attempt with the Wraith, and then it was like he shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, I tried." (And I'm not sure why the heroes bothered saving Regina from the Wraith. At that point in the story, she more than had it coming.)

She really did have it coming and it made zero sense that Rumple would have given up. If anything he'd bid his time for the next opportunity. There's no reason why Regina wouldn't have gone after him too after the Curse was broken. She lost everything including her son, and now she knew that he duped her. Rumple vs Regina? Now that would have been fun to watch.

[Camera One]

But they're A&E's favorites, so we could never have gotten the satisfying conclusion of them destroying each other with fireballs which supplies fireworks and entertainment for Emma and Killian's wedding.  Instead we actually get a show with ONLY Regina and Rumple!  (And their other favorite, Hook).

Edited June 14, 2017 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

But they're A&E's favorites, so we could never have gotten the satisfying conclusion of them destroying each other with fireballs which supplies fireworks and entertainment for Emma and Killian's wedding.  Instead we actually get a show with ONLY Regina and Rumple!  (And their other favorite, Hook).

That's true. I'm sure they are so excited. They have even more time to spend on Regina and Rumple.  Imagine that even more Regina following a season of two Reginas! Rumple can be as evil as he wants without them worrying about Belle walking out on him or having to worry about putting Belle asleep so Rumple can go off and be bad. 

[Camera One]

I was on Youtube and got recommended that clip from "The Other Shoe" with Lady Tremaine trying to kill Cinders.  I really liked that episode, but rewatching that scene (as an aside, Lady Tremaine still kills it, pardon the pun), I was thinking... how many times in Season 6 did Henry tell Emma "You can do it!"  By this point, it feels like a watching a hamster wheel.  Of course, Cinderella apologizes to Clorinda, who doesn't apologize back but just says "It's alright."  Uh... you basically worked with your evil stepmother to come back to entrap and kill Cinderella, and you don't have to express any remorse?  Messed up morality as usual!

Edited June 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

On 6/14/2017 at 10:08 AM, Camera One said:

Instead we actually get a show with ONLY Regina and Rumple!  (And their other favorite, Hook).

I know it can seem that way, but this season has made me feel that A&E don't really like Hook as well as they once did. I feel like Hook (and CS) became more popular than they intended. The redemption story they were writing for him brought Regina's and Rumple's "redemption" arcs into contrasting focus. So they started to give him darker backstories like the patricide and that OOC murder of Charming's father. In present day, they tend to beat down and punish Hook in his storylines. Or turn him into an old fat joke. A&E identify more with woobies and "nice guys" like Rumple. I have a feeling the reboot will continue this trend.

[Camera One]

I don't think that means they dislike Hook.  A lot of shows have an attractive angsty male brooder who is attractive, and I think Hook fills that bill for A&E.   Hook's storylines, even in Season 6, doesn't get the "We're bored" vibe that characters like Emma or Snowing got.  Fans of the character don't like Hook tortured, but that's meaty material for the actor.   The Writers still seemed to have fun writing snarky lines for him on his side adventure series.  He got to act the martyr, taken away against his will from Emma, the one who "rejected" him and thought he had abandoned her.  Regina and Rumple rank first, but of the remaining characters, Hook still seem to be a strong third in the writing.  It was a little surprising that A&E lost interest in Zelena.  I was trying to think of a reason, and I think it's because of their lack of creativity.  A redeemed Zelena is pretty similar to a redeemed Regina, and they don't know how to write for both of them at the same time.  

Edited June 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was trying to think of a reason, and I think it's because of their lack of creativity.  A redeemed Zelena is pretty similar to a redeemed Regina, and they don't know how to write for both of them at the same time.  

They decided to write for a second version of Regina (aka the Evil Queen) instead of for Zelena. There were literally three versions of essentially the same kind of character running around in Season 6. Zelena could have played the role the EQ in the Season 6 finale. There was no reason to bring Clone Queen back other than for Regina and EQ to almost make out in self-love. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

A&E doesn't like Hook. They have trated him better than Emma or Snowing, but that doesn't mean they like him, and the storylines they have written for him in 4A, 5A, 5B and season 6 prove it.  

[KingOfHearts]

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I don't think that means they dislike Hook.  A lot of shows have an attractive angsty male brooder who is attractive, and I think Hook fills that bill for A&E.   Hook's storylines, even in Season 6, doesn't get the "We're bored" vibe that characters like Emma or Snowing got.  Fans of the character don't like Hook tortured, but that's meaty material for the actor.   The Writers still seemed to have fun writing snarky lines for him on his side adventure series.  He got to act the martyr, taken away against his will from Emma, the one who "rejected" him and thought he had abandoned her.  Regina and Rumple rank first, but of the remaining characters, Hook still seem to be a strong third in the writing. 

I pretty much agree with all of this. Hook gets crappy plots, but so do Regina and Rumple. A&E like a villain with a forceful redemption arc and a strong romantic relationship.

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They decided to write for a second version of Regina (aka the Evil Queen) instead of for Zelena.

This. Zelena had believable character development, and that's why A&E started to hate her. They realized she was becoming self-aware, and that's taboo on this show. The Evil Queen was a cartoonish embodiment of darkness, so she wasn't in danger of becoming too human. They could make her do whatever they wanted without any consequences, then make her function for Regina's benefit in the end.

Edited June 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Evil Queen was a cartoonish embodiment of darkness, so she wasn't in danger of becoming too human. 

Word. I could never take her seriously becasue Lana played Clone Queen as too cartoonish. She and fake!Robin getting a Happy Ending together was one of the most ridiculous plots of this season, and that's saying a lot. It was like a bad fanfic come to life.

[tennisgurl]

I think the writers liked Hook more than Emma and the Charming's, because he was a former villain with an angsty backstory (and that's their favorite thing ever), but they didn't like him as much as Rumple and Regina, mainly because while Regina and Rumple basically just said "I'm a good guy now!" and everyone just accepted it (because they can do no wrong) while Hook actually had to work to make people trust him. Hell, even in the last season we were STILL getting episodes of Charming calling him a Dirty Shifty Pirate, and that after Hook has been a good guy (and one of Charming's best friends) for several seasons. Granted, Hook got a classic villain resolution to killing Charming's dad (killed my dad? I'm upset for five minutes and now I'm over it) but that more about this shows hatred of showing consequences or normal reactions to anything than anything to do with Hook. Regina and Rumple are clearly on a completely different pedestal than Hook is, even if A&E do like him as much as its possible for them to like any characters not named Regina and Rumple.

Really, poor Emma should be thankful that the writers actually kind of like her boyfriend, or they would have probably gotten bored of her and written her off ages ago.

[KingOfHearts]

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 It was like a bad fanfic come to life.

This entire show is a bad fanfic come to life.

Edited June 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I keep getting the impression that the writers like writing for Hook as a character. They like putting him through the wringer and making him suffer, even if some of the suffering they throw at him feels like a total retcon. They make up new stuff to make him suffer about. He may have got off relatively easy for killing David's father, by real world standards, but by this show's standards, he suffered for it. He showed more grief, guilt, and remorse for that than Regina has for all her mass murder or the horrible things she did to people she now claims to care about, and he had at least the consequence of Emma breaking off the engagement (even if that wasn't the direct reason she did so), then getting sent away and going through all those ordeals in an attempt to get back home while worrying that Emma thought he'd abandoned her.

But it seems like they love Regina and Rumple like they're real people. They don't particularly write good material for them because good material would mean conflict and suffering. They occasionally try to do that, but they always backtrack on it and undo it quickly. Look at Regina and Robin -- they brought Marian back to bring up angst for Regina, then a couple of episodes later they put Marian on ice, and a few episodes after that Robin caved and went back to Regina, they sent Robin out of town and set up an arc that was supposed to be about Regina suffering, but all she had to do to get back with him was make a phone call, and hey, it wasn't really Marian all along. They killed Robin, and then they found another version of him who was perfect for the Evil Queen. It was like they just couldn't make it stick. They may have decided that she's good now, but her personality hasn't changed all that much. She just isn't doing evil. They split out what was supposedly her dark side, and she didn't change at all. There was little difference between Regina and the Evil Queen other than wardrobe, probably because they couldn't bear to not write Regina as snarky and sassy.

With Rumple, they keep having him make the sad eyes and vow to be better, but they don't want him to be better, so they keep undoing it. They couldn't even keep him humble when kicked out of town for an entire episode. They entirely skipped the part where we saw him working out how to cope in the outside world. When he had the darkness sucked out of him, they couldn't keep him unpowered for more than a few episodes. He can do horrible things to the other characters or allow horrible things to happen to them, and he suffers no consequences. There seems to be absolutely nothing he can do that will make Belle stay away from him for good -- beat her father almost to death, lie to her about giving her the dagger, impersonate her friend to trick her into giving the dagger back and spill about her new relationship, put her to sleep when he wants her out of the way, go behind her back to let her friends and father be killed, go behind her back to become the Dark One again, neglect to tell her about that second-born child problem, etc., etc.

I think they're a big reason why this show is so static. Changing the status quo much at all would generally require things to change for Regina and Rumple, and they can't bring themselves to do that. The end of season six isn't all that different from the situation in season one under the curse, other than that Rumple got Belle and a new baby and Regina has all the people she tormented kissing up to her and formalizing, via the title on her office door, what her position during the curse essentially was.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

With Rumple, they keep having him make the sad eyes and vow to be better, but they don't want him to be better, so they keep undoing it.

With Rumple, I have a feeling they also rely on how "awesome" the actor is.  I think they seriously believe that the audience would forgive Rumple, just like Belle because of those sad eyes.  I don't even find him fun to watch in villain mode at this point, because you know he's going to get off scot free.  

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

They couldn't even keep him humble when kicked out of town for an entire episode. They entirely skipped the part where we saw him working out how to cope in the outside world.

I was looking forward to this, but, nope -- he's thoroughly successful in a world he doesn't understand.  Bleh.

[Camera One]

Ursula was so nice letting him crash at her place.  Why would she?  

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But it seems like they love Regina and Rumple like they're real people.

This is the crux of the problem. Writers do occasionally fall in love with their creations (Dorothy Sayers and Lord Peter Wimsey), but that'll typically end in disaster. Because the writer loses perspective more often than not. With Rumple and Regina, they also are authorial self-inserts in different ways. The writers see them as underdogs and misunderstood. A&E have talked about the EQ's fate being a metaphor about being struggling writers in Hollywood (I still don't see a connection), and Rumple is the ultimate "nice guy", The writers couldn't bear not to give these two everything and more in the end.

[Camera One]

Rumple is the nerd/geeky writer who loves Star Wars but no one appreciates him but he's actually a genius mastermind, much like A&E.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Camera One

[CCTC]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

With Rumple, I have a feeling they also rely on how "awesome" the actor is.

I think he is a good actor, but felt nothing in most of his scenes this year.  I am not sure if it is because we have seen the teary eyed Gold one too many times, if his redemption seemed so unearned, that they used Gideon as an excuse to not address the abusive things Gold had just done, or if at some level Robert while not phoning it in - is not as invested.  Even flashback Rumple seemed a little flat.  There are only so many times you can see him giggle and talk in riddles.  If they want the reboot to work next year, they really need to find some new things for these characters.

[Shanna Marie]

The problem with Rumple is that he's stuck in lukewarm limbo land. They don't want to entirely reform him because they love him as a "deliciously evil" villain, but they also don't want him to be a real antagonist or villain who's in opposition to the heroes. He has to remain a part of the community instead of them all fighting to defeat and destroy him. And that boils down to him doing petty evil and making sad eyes and talking about how important his family is to him. The result is that he isn't deliciously evil. He's made no attempt to take over the town or really seize power, in spite of supposedly having a lust for power. He's seldom willing to get his hands dirty to do his own killing. He wanted the whole town dead so he could leave town with Belle and Henry and have all his power, but he let Ingrid do the dirty work. He's never really done anything to kill the whole town. He got all the power of all the Dark Ones ever, and did nothing with it. If you look at him as a villain, he's a rather pathetic one who hasn't done much -- he got the curse cast, but was the one to add the backdoor so it could be broken. He was a mean and nasty landlord (maybe still is, we don't know). He made the one attempt to kill Regina. He enabled Ingrid to cast the shattered sight spell and was going to murder Hook to do the spell to give himself power, but he made Hook be the one to hat all the fairies. He had Isaac write an alternate universe where he was a hero and the people he didn't like had sad lives (though his AU was on a par with Regina's curse). He hijacked Hook's sacrifice to get his powers back. This isn't a deliciously evil villain. It's a weak little man who likes to play like he's a badass but who doesn't really do much. What kind of deliciously evil villain allows himself to be constrained because his wife might get mad if he did anything?

But at the same time, he's done way too much for it to be at all credible that he's accepted as a member of the community. They've all got to be pretty dumb if every time he does a good thing, they believe that this will be the time it's for real and will stick, since it never does.

I think all this makes him a lot less interesting as a character because he isn't really anything. Lukewarm is blah. In any arc that centers on Rumple being any kind of antagonist, it fizzles out because they can't let him win, they can't let him be truly defeated, and they aren't willing to even humble him for very long. It's hard to have any kind of triumph or climactic encounter when the bad guy can't really win, but the good guys can't really beat him, when the best-case outcome is a last-second change of heart and a weak truce before all is forgiven.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina, in my opinion, is infinitely more interesting than Rumple. She has much more potential and room to grow. Rumple's humanity stopped at Bae, and should have. At the most basic level, Regina was an innocent but naive person who got into a bad crowd. Rumple was, in his adulthood, always a sniveling coward. He never had anywhere to go because he didn't have good intentions to begin with. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

On 6/16/2017 at 0:24 AM, Camera One said:

Ursula was so nice letting him crash at her place.  Why would she?  

When in doubt, especially with TSTW, it's PLOT!!!!

[Writing Wrongs]

I've started my series re-watch (again) before S6 comes out on dvd. 

Season 1 really was almost perfect. I love the way the first and last episodes bookend each other. 

With Emma's comment to MM about not getting involved with a married man, I feel like they were going to go in a different direction with who Henry's dad was.

Did we ever find out what happened to Thomas in the EF?

It does bug me that in the first few episodes they act all afraid and stuff of Rumple when it later shows that he had helped them many times in the past.

I actually enjoy watching the seasons over again. I'm gonna miss this show.

[daxx]

My rewatches invariably end most of the way into season 4. Then I feel like watching season 3 again. Not sure I've seen season 5 through more than twice. I used to do a complete rewatch every hiatus. Much of season 6 I've only seen once.

[oncebluethrone]

I've rewatched the entire show since the end of Season 4 annually between seasons and will be starting this year's rewatch probably in late July.

[txhorns79]

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Season 1 really was almost perfect. I love the way the first and last episodes bookend each other. 

I feel like that happens with a lot of shows.  Obviously the first season plan is what helps sell the network on the show, and I would presume the showrunners probably spend months, if not years, perfecting their concept before a network boss ever sees anything.  I don't think the second season gets the same type of care.  It reminds me of Desperate Housewives, which had an excellent first season, followed by a crash in quality the second season.      

[TheGreenKnight]

Sophomore slump happens with a lot of shows. The only example I can think of where that wasn't the case (that I've watched) was Scandal. Scandal's second season was the best of the series, and it crashed in the third season (and never recovered, imo...).

[Camera One]

Yes, Season 2 slumps are definitely common.  Mainly because the first season story is usually what attracted people to a show, and once that original "mystery" is revealed, or once the main character deals with their big hurdle (emotional or otherwise), the Writers sometimes don't know where to go.  The "Desperate Housewives" example was a great one, because after the whole Mary Alice story was revealed, now what?  

I guess the ironic thing with "Once" is that unlike so many shows, ending the Season 1 story (the Curse) actually opened up huge new avenues to explore, from Emma getting to know her parents, to the townspeople reacting to what happened, to Regina losing her advantage, to Rumple reuniting with Belle and being able to find his son, to the possibility of everyone questing to return to the Enchanted Forest.  Unfortunately all of this potential was squandered by adding unnecessary shiny new toys and over-powering the villains by bringing magic to Storybrooke.  They didn't need to add a single new character in Season 2, and there could have been an amazing story just dealing with all the fallout.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

11 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Sophomore slump happens with a lot of shows. The only example I can think of where that wasn't the case (that I've watched) was Scandal. Scandal's second season was the best of the series, and it crashed in the third season (and never recovered, imo...).

The second season of BTVS was one of the best of its seasons, too. (Though, I'll arguably say third was the best overall.)

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They didn't need to add a single new character in Season 2, and there could have been an amazing story just dealing with all the fallout.

I thought Aurora and Mulan were good additions, though. They weren't overbearing and they serviced the plot okay. They didn't take any necessary focus away from the main characters. I wish we could have gotten a better continuation of their story in 2B or S3. I'm still bitter that while they saved Philip from the Underworld, it was totally irrelevant in 5B. Instead we got Dorothy, who had nothing to do with anything. That would have been the perfect way to bring Mulan back while also inserting some delicious continuity.

Edited June 20, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Arnella]

21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

delicious continuity

I was so hungry for OUAT continuity but I starved to death...

[jhlipton]

On 6/20/2017 at 1:26 AM, TheGreenKnight said:

Sophomore slump happens with a lot of shows. The only example I can think of where that wasn't the case (that I've watched) was Scandal. Scandal's second season was the best of the series, and it crashed in the third season (and never recovered, imo...).

Brooklyn 9-9 has only gotten better and better each season.  Dark Matter's second season was pretty good too, and Sense8's season 2 was better than season 1.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm starting my own rewatch, mostly because I'm in physical therapy this summer for a bum knee, and I have "homework" I'm supposed to do every day. My homework lasts about the length of an episode, so I figured it was as good a time as any for a rewatch -- watching takes my mind off what I'm doing, but since I've seen it before, I don't miss anything if I get sidetracked by counting or have to look away from the TV for a particular exercise. I don't know that I'll get through the whole series. I may skip some episodes or make liberal use of the fast-forward button in some. As they add exercises to my routine, I may have to do more than one episode a night.

I don't know that the entire series really lived up to the promise of the pilot. There was an atmosphere in that episode that was entirely lacking in the rest of the series. Storybrooke seemed like a spooky, magical, fairytale kind of place, and I think the show lost that atmosphere after that first episode, and all traces of it were gone by the later seasons. How did the place become more "normal" after the curse was broken and the fairytale characters knew they were from a magical world, and when magic had been introduced?

After rewatching the first episode, I can understand some of the criticisms that Emma had been wimpified too much in later seasons, but I don't think it had anything to do with her being in a romantic relationship. There was a confidence and assertiveness to the Emma in the pilot and early episodes that I think was lost along the way. Yeah, walls hiding vulnerability, and all that, but I don't think it was all an act. She was sassy and defiant, and I would have thought that being in love and knowing her family would have made her even more sassy and defiant. I can't imagine season one Emma cowering in front of the Black Fairy.

An intriguing thing I don't recall noticing before: during the war council, Charming makes a reference to his men being out in the forest and hearing about the coming curse from the animals. For one thing, whatever happened to all those men? In all the conflicts that have arisen in Storybrooke, why did Charming's men never show up to help in the fight? For another, does that mean that Snow's not the only one to commune with birds? Are there more talking animals? Why did we never see anything about this?

I still don't understand how Henry was able to catch a bus when the town was supposedly invisible to the outside world. Did he walk out of town and catch the bus down the road? Was Henry visible while the rest of the town was invisible, so the bus driver saw him and stopped even though the town was still invisible? It doesn't mesh with what they've shown us since then about the way the town worked.

[Camera One]

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 Did he walk out of town and catch the bus down the road?

This is what I've always assumed.  I was expecting them to explain the mechanics of how things got to and from Storybrooke, but they never did, so it's the simplest explanation.

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Yeah, walls hiding vulnerability, and all that, but I don't think it was all an act. She was sassy and defiant, and I would have thought that being in love and knowing her family would have made her even more sassy and defiant. I can't imagine season one Emma cowering in front of the Black Fairy.

Well, we are blessed that this show provided a thoroughly developed 6-year character study and we saw how Emma's deep bond with Cleo was the impetus for Emma becoming sassy and kickass.  

Okay, seriously speaking, the Writers don't know how to write Sassy Minus Walls.  It's No Walls, No Sass, or Full Walls, Sad Sack.  Oh wait a minute...

Edited June 22, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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After rewatching the first episode, I can understand some of the criticisms that Emma had been wimpified too much in later seasons, but I don't think it had anything to do with her being in a romantic relationship. There was a confidence and assertiveness to the Emma in the pilot and early episodes that I think was lost along the way. Yeah, walls hiding vulnerability, and all that, but I don't think it was all an act. She was sassy and defiant, and I would have thought that being in love and knowing her family would have made her even more sassy and defiant. I can't imagine season one Emma cowering in front of the Black Fairy.

I agree with this. It's true that Emma hasn't gotten weaker per se, but she lost her sense of independence. The show has already framed her defiance as a bad WALLS thing. But, in my opinion, weakness is not standing by while the villains kill your loved ones and royal subjects. *cough* Snow *cough*

Edited June 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't know that the entire series really lived up to the promise of the pilot.

Magic 8 Ball says: All signs point to NO

[Camera One]

I was watching an interview where A&E answered a question about that red bird.  You know, the Oracle's ultra important red bird.  This is what The Oracle said to Emma in the season premiere: "What you saw was a small piece of the end of your story, Savior.  You can change the path to the destination, but the destination is the same.  On the day you saw, in the battle you saw... you will die."  I guess she forgot the "And then you will get back up."  Any way you cut it, that was not "the end of the story" for Emma.

Now here's what Hyde said to Emma in the season premiere: "You're not the first Savior I've encountered.  Wherever there's a Savior, there's a villain who brings them down.  That's how the Savior's story always goes."  Huh?  So did Emma buck the trend?  How many freak'in "Saviors" are there anyway?  So each one has a random villain who "kills" them?  But remember from the finale, only light can destroy light or whatever.  So every Black Fairy supervillain would need some lackey "killing" the Savior?  

Hyde also said, "I expect you'll want to help [the people who came with me], as Saviors do, but you have to ask yourself... is helping them exactly what causes your story to end?"  How did Gideon end up in Storybrooke again?  Was it because of David's wish?  And David made a wish because of the genie lamp which was because of Aladdin which was because of Jasmine, who was from The Land of Untold Stories?  That's one heck of a convoluted nonsensical random chain reaction.

That got me thinking about The Shears.  If Emma had cut away her Savior-ness with the Shears, would it have made any difference?  Who would The Black Fairy fight the Final Battle with?  No one?  Rumple was the one who defeated The Black Fairy anyway.  

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

"You're not the first Savior I've encountered.  Wherever there's a Savior, there's a villain who brings them down.  That's how the Savior's story always goes."

Which makes you wonder what the point of Saviors is, if they're always brought down by a villain. What saving do they do if they're always defeated? Why, then, are they called Saviors if all they do is get brought down by villains?

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

That got me thinking about The Shears.  If Emma had cut away her Savior-ness with the Shears, would it have made any difference?  Who would The Black Fairy fight the Final Battle with?  No one?  Rumple was the one who defeated The Black Fairy anyway.  

It looks to me like things would have been better all around if Emma had cut away her Savior-ness with the Shears. She didn't do anything from that point to the end that required her to be a Savior. Would the Black Fairy have even come to town if there hadn't been a Savior there to defeat so she could get that prophecy out of the way? Would she have bothered taking Gideon without a Savior around? Or would she have been off bothering whoever the next Savior was?

Though we still have the problem that she sent Gideon to kill the Savior to open a rift so that she could come into this world ... to kill the Savior.

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's one heck of a convoluted nonsensical random chain reaction.

Though this is also the storyline that involved Gideon sending Hook away, then opening a bar and passing out half-price drink coupons in order to pose as a bartender so he could get Emma to talk to him and shed tears that he could use to keep Hook away in order to force Emma to help him, as a cover for killing her to steal her Savior energy to open a rift to bring the Black Fairy so she could kill the Savior and fulfill the prophecy. That makes the chain reaction from Untold Stories to Gideon look straightforward.

[andromeda331]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 9:00 PM, Camera One said:

This is what I've always assumed.  I was expecting them to explain the mechanics of how things got to and from Storybrooke, but they never did, so it's the simplest explanation.

Well, we are blessed that this show provided a thoroughly developed 6-year character study and we saw how Emma's deep bond with Cleo was the impetus for Emma becoming sassy and kickass.  

Okay, seriously speaking, the Writers don't know how to write Sassy Minus Walls.  It's No Walls, No Sass, or Full Walls, Sad Sack.  Oh wait a minute...

Or how to write Sassy Minus Massacre Villages or Sassy Minus Murder. Sassy is just no fun without a body count.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Or how to write Sassy Minus Massacre Villages or Sassy Minus Murder. Sassy is just no fun without a body count.

Regina's teen angst bullshit has a body count.

[Shanna Marie]

Continuing the rewatch, and it's weird how much more developed their worlds were in the early episodes than in the later episodes, when you'd think it would be the other way around, that six seasons in they'd have developed richer worlds due to building on the foundation. In season six, the town seems to consist just of that little main street area around the library and the diner. Regina's house, the apartment building with the loft, and Emma's house seem to exist in little bubbles that aren't actually connected to the town. But early in season one, there are those lovely shots of Henry and Mary Margaret looking out their windows over the rooftops of the town. They're obviously CGI, so why didn't they re-use those views and really give us a sense of the town? Meanwhile, there seems to be more going on in the Enchanted Forest in the flashbacks. What happened to all of Regina's fellow villains, who seemed to come from a variety of races? She promised them a world where they could win, but what happened to them in Storybrooke? Did they accidentally land in the Coradome, or were they turned human in Storybrooke, like happened to the dwarfs and Jiminy?

The warped morality shows up pretty early in the series, even before they started whitewashing Regina. In the first few episodes, I think Charming has a higher onscreen body count than Hook got in the entire series, even in his villain flashbacks. He tears through all the black knights as the curse approaches, and he later wipes out the knights who are attempting to take Snow. But then later he gets all judgey about Snow killing Regina, who murdered Snow's father, tried to have her murdered, is trying to hunt her down to kill her, and who is oppressing Snow's kingdom. Because apparently he can kill countless random knights without a qualm, but if she kills the major threat who's behind those knights, her heart will be forever darkened and there will be no coming back from it (never mind that Regina had no problems coming back from mass murder). It rather uncomfortably parallels the double standard about sex and virginity. He runs through countless randoms who are meaningless to him, and he's a hero, but if she does something about one person who is deeply meaningful to her, she's forever darkened and tainted.

I believe that the knight he killed by throwing his knife in "Snow Falls" was his first human kill. This picks up immediately after the events of "The Shepherd," where he only killed a dragon. I don't think he was killing people as a farmboy, even after Anna taught him to be brave (ugh), so doesn't he react at all to having killed a person? Meanwhile, I don't recall that they ever delved into Snow's very cynical and snarky attitude about romance. She talks about how she doesn't believe in love at first sight or first kiss, that marriage is just a political thing. Her parents' marriage was arranged, but seems to have become happy, and I don't think there's any indication that her father was trying to marry her off to anyone for a treaty. I guess they were trying to set up her falling in love with Charming as a contrast to her attitude, but she didn't fall in love with him at first sight or first kiss. She fell in love with him after they went through some stuff together, with him rescuing her and her rescuing him. It seems like they were setting up something that they never got into.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Meanwhile, I don't recall that they ever delved into Snow's very cynical and snarky attitude about romance. She talks about how she doesn't believe in love at first sight or first kiss, that marriage is just a political thing. Her parents' marriage was arranged, but seems to have become happy, and I don't think there's any indication that her father was trying to marry her off to anyone for a treaty. 

When you point out things like this, it shows that Snow COULD be an interesting characters and have character depth worth exploring.  They did not need to manufacture angst and new crimes against humanity in order to give her a story.  As usual A&E aren't interested if someone doesn't have a "dark" past (see: Wishverse Emma, who apparently has no problems in a world full of danger where her freak'in husband supposedly died).

It seems like they knew Snowing would be gone after Season 6, yet once again, they brought on a completely external scenario which actually led to them being onscreen even less, the Monte Cristo "centric" wasn't even about them, they got barely any scenes alone with Emma (but plenty of scenes with Snow/Regina or David/Hook... at least the latter was more enjoyable, but still...) AND they got yet another damaging and unnecessary retcon.   Even if the actors wanted less screentime, it's HOW their screentime is used, not the amount of it.  

On another note, the call-backs to Season 1 in Season 6 were lame and/or repetitive and/or retconny.  It's not worth it to have Emma talking about the car crash leaving Storybrooke in the pilot, if it was just a pointless mention.  At least go back and explore things that they never answered, like the Wolf, for example.  Or in the Cursed Storybrooke episode, have Mary Margaret investigate the goings-on, so we could have seen more of the town.  If they were going to retcon, do something bold like having Mary Margaret and David spend one day with Young Emma, and then have all their memories erased.  I'd rather they embrace the wacky and give us fun things to watch, instead of pretending to be a character drama with no actual depth or development.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

This is where I call the writers idiot savants. They set up good stuff, but are either completely unaware of what they set up or they disregard it entirely to manufacture something random and meaningless.

I can't believe that in all the times I've watched "Snow Falls," Snow's attitude when David caught her never struck me. They mostly depict her as being cluelessly about hope, except when she isn't, but this was a real edge to her. She was bitter about her life, about what Regina had done to her, about being lied about and hunted. But she was also bitter about romance, and my writer radar went "ping!" at that. She was really snarky about David's engagement and upcoming wedding, claimed not to be the jewelry type, and was very cynical about royal "romances," acknowledging that the were all about treaties and alliances. Where did that come from? They certainly didn't develop it. The only thing I can think of is that Leo's marriage with Regina, which was acknowledged to be not about love, ended up ruining Snow's world. Marrying for practical reasons had caused harm there, though. It wasn't fake love or love gone wrong, or love thwarted. Was Snow betrothed to someone for political reasons, thought she was in love with him and him with her, but the marriage was off as soon as she was kicked out, and his family wouldn't give her refuge? Was there a prince she was into, but he ended up marrying someone else when his father made a treaty? And if something like this had happened, how would it have affected the way she talked to Emma when Emma was wary about letting herself fall for Hook -- assuming, of course, that Snow was allowed to talk to Emma?

Just as I miss the Emma who took a chainsaw to Regina's apple tree, I miss the Snow with a necklace full of dark fairy dust who didn't fall for Prince Charming at first sight. Even early Mary Margaret had more spunk and zing to her than later Snow did.

[Camera One]

And a room full of Writers didn't see the ridiculous 180 they made by making "I don't want to be Mary Margaret anymore" being the focal point of her arc in 5B, and then have Snow decide her ultimate happy ending was to live Mary Margaret's life in 6A?  Is part of their ritual at "summer camp planning session" to burn all their memories of what they wrote last season?  It's seriously beyond idiotic.  

It's ridiculous enough that they have zero interest in exploring the repercussions of the previous half-season (eg. Hook dying, Emma stint as the Dark One).  And in Season 7, they will be freed of this completely.  They really have been rewarded for mediocrity.

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

This is where I call the writers idiot savants. They set up good stuff, but are either completely unaware of what they set up or they disregard it entirely to manufacture something random and meaningless.

I can't believe that in all the times I've watched "Snow Falls," Snow's attitude when David caught her never struck me. They mostly depict her as being cluelessly about hope, except when she isn't, but this was a real edge to her. She was bitter about her life, about what Regina had done to her, about being lied about and hunted. But she was also bitter about romance, and my writer radar went "ping!" at that. She was really snarky about David's engagement and upcoming wedding, claimed not to be the jewelry type, and was very cynical about royal "romances," acknowledging that the were all about treaties and alliances. Where did that come from? They certainly didn't develop it. The only thing I can think of is that Leo's marriage with Regina, which was acknowledged to be not about love, ended up ruining Snow's world. Marrying for practical reasons had caused harm there, though. It wasn't fake love or love gone wrong, or love thwarted. Was Snow betrothed to someone for political reasons, thought she was in love with him and him with her, but the marriage was off as soon as she was kicked out, and his family wouldn't give her refuge? Was there a prince she was into, but he ended up marrying someone else when his father made a treaty? And if something like this had happened, how would it have affected the way she talked to Emma when Emma was wary about letting herself fall for Hook -- assuming, of course, that Snow was allowed to talk to Emma?

Just as I miss the Emma who took a chainsaw to Regina's apple tree, I miss the Snow with a necklace full of dark fairy dust who didn't fall for Prince Charming at first sight. Even early Mary Margaret had more spunk and zing to her than later Snow did.

That would be cool if it had been about someone else a prince she didn't end up with or something. But could that have been about Regina though? Regina saved her life when she was a young girl. Snow thought she was going to get a new mother who loved her and took care of her. We saw Regina spending time with Snow before the wedding, and while we didn't see what happened immediately afterwards we got a lot of scenes where Regina was alone while Leopold and Snow were off somewhere or Regina was able to tutor under Rumple so it didn't look like she was doing anything with her husband or stepchild.  Snow didn't know what happened to Daniel until much later when she ate the poisoned apple. So from young Snow's perspective she thought she was getting a new mother and ended up with someone who dropped interest in her and her father after the wedding, who arranged the murder of Snow's father and tried to kill her too, and stole everything she had. Its easy to think that the Regina before the wedding was all an act in order to marry her father, then murder both of them and seize the throne.  Or maybe she thought Regina losing Daniel and therefore true love turned Regina into what she was? Or maybe just fear of losing someone else. At that point she lost her mother while knowing she could have saved her but "did the right thing", her father wo was murdered by someone she used to adore and look up to, who stole her home and everything she had. Was she scared to find love and think Regina might destroy it? Or that she'd lose it like she lost her mother? Snow had so many issues they could have explored and would have been interesting to do so. I still hate that after Emma sees Snow recognize Tinkerbell's "home" it doesn't make her see how much they had in common and that they don't talk about how neither had a home for a long time, Emma never had a home and Snow's home was taking from her, both spent a lot of time on the run, and both were betrayed by someone they loved.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Snow thought she was going to get a new mother who loved her and took care of her. We saw Regina spending time with Snow before the wedding, and while we didn't see what happened immediately afterwards we got a lot of scenes where Regina was alone while Leopold and Snow were off somewhere or Regina was able to tutor under Rumple so it didn't look like she was doing anything with her husband or stepchild.  Snow didn't know what happened to Daniel until much later when she ate the poisoned apple. So from young Snow's perspective she thought she was getting a new mother and ended up with someone who dropped interest in her and her father after the wedding, who arranged the murder of Snow's father and tried to kill her too, and stole everything she had. Its easy to think that the Regina before the wedding was all an act in order to marry her father, then murder both of them and seize the throne.  

Well said.  That really highlights how very little is written from Snow's POV even though she's supposedly one of the top billed characters.  The years after the wedding is always focused on lonely Regina at the palace.  We never see Snow and Leopold when they journeyed the kingdom.  Did she look forward to becoming Queen?  What did she learn from her father?  Was he actually a good ruler?  Did Cora messing with her as a child with the candle have lasting emotional consequences on Snow?  How did Snow feel living at her former palace in 3B for the first time since her father died?  

It makes it all the more galling that they would actually write a scene with Snow thanking Regina for teaching her about hope since she had to go on the run when she was being hunted down.  Nobody, no matter how "glass half full", would ever say that.  This is no surprise from the Writers who had Grumpy bow down to the Queen in the Season 6 finale.  Forgiveness is one thing, but that was on a whole new level of insulting.

We also never really saw how Charming dealt with adjusting to life as a ruler after marrying Snow.  Did he miss his shepherd lifestyle?  Apparently, we find out in the Season 6 finale his "happy ending" was to farm.  Why was he so intent on marrying for love when we first saw him in Season 1?   Given his childhood, wouldn't he think the opposite?  

Edited June 25, 2017 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Well said.  That really highlights how very little is written from Snow's POV even though she's supposedly one of the top billed characters.  The years after the wedding is always focused on lonely Regina at the palace.  We never see Snow and Leopold when they journeyed the kingdom.  Did she look forward to becoming Queen?  What did she learn from her father?  Was he actually a good ruler?  Did Cora messing with her as a child with the candle have lasting emotional consequences on Snow?  How did Snow feel living at her former palace in 3B for the first time since her father died?  

It makes it all the more galling that they would actually write a scene with Snow thanking Regina for teaching her about hope since she had to go on the run when she was being hunted down.  Nobody, no matter how "glass half full", would ever say that.  This is no surprise from the Writers who had Grumpy bow down to the Queen in the Season 6 finale.  Forgiveness is one thing, but that was on a whole new level of insulting.

We also never really saw how Charming dealt with adjusting to life as a ruler after marrying Snow.  Did he miss his shepherd lifestyle?  Apparently, we find out in the Season 6 finale his "happy ending" was to farm.  Why was he so intent on marrying for love when we first saw him in Season 1?   Given his childhood, wouldn't he think the opposite?  

These are all good questions and would have been fun exploring Snow and Charming's characters. There's so little we know of them and they rarely got to react to anything that happened to them. Anything they went through. Snow had been put through so much for something that wasn't even her fault. How did she feel about ruling? Did she want to be Queen or not? How did Charming feel about ruling? Did he want to make any changes based on what he saw growing up? Did he have any resentment regarding his brother being sold, and being forced to do the same thing to save the farm.  Did being on the run effect on how Snow decided to rule? How much was Snow scarred by everything that happened to her? How did she feel after the Curse? Yes, it was broken but her daughter's was all grown up and had a horrible childhood? That she was in jail and gave up her own child? How did she and really everyone feel about what happened during the Curse? They did things they wouldn't have done, were torn away from their families? Snow had a one night stand, her grandson was growing up right in front of her and she didn't know? How does Charming feel? He was in coma for most of it and then married to someone else? To Abigail who he parted ways with amicably after freeing Frederick. How does he feel about what he did to her? Grace who had another family for 28 years she gets her dad back but did they treat her well? Or just happy that she goes back to her father after spending decades thinking she was their daughter? Does all that stuff get swept away? Thomas's father almost got his grandchild sold while he was under the Curse. I know this will never be brought up. But no one remembers Graham and realizes what happened to him? Does anyone want to go back to the Enchanted Forest? Are their people who never want to back because their sick of Regina, Rumple and magic all together? And rulers who did nothing to stop either one. Do they finally want their own say in their lives?

[Writing Wrongs]

After watching The Stable Boy again, it really pisses me off how they retconned Cora and Leopold. He shows absolutely no acknowledgment that he knew, let alone was going to marry Cora. I have to fanwank it that Cora memory wiped him at some point.

I also hate Henry Sr. He is always complicit in going along with Regina's plans, no matter what. He shows no remorse when she is screwing over Jefferson in Wonderland. He let Cora walk all over him and then continues it with Regina. I'm glad he got his heart ripped out. Dumbass.