A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Olivia Y]

I...still don't understand the point of that curse, much like I never understood the point of the original dark curse. Why do these villains want to be mayor of a small town in Maine? What doe that accomplish? Regina wasn't happy in her original curse and the Black Fairy...wants all realms extinguished? Why? What does this achieve for her on a personal level? What part of the dialogue did I miss that explains this?!

[KingOfHearts]

S6 doesn't even need a full review. It just sucks all the way through. 6B has a very slight edge over 6A, since toward the end of it, there was a sliver of plot happening. My current rankings:

S3 -> S1 -> S2 -> S5 -> S4 -> S6 -> -> -> probably S7.

Edited May 18, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kktjones]

Yeah, there was very little I liked about Season 6. My main reasons for watching are Emma, Hook & Captain Swan and this season did them no favors at all (both as individuals and as a couple). On top of the character assassination (Hook murdered David's father! Emma gives up on Hook after 12 hours!), manufactured angst, and separations, I also really didn't like any of their "big moments" including the moving in convo, the proposal, the wedding vows, the song, and the scene in the happily ever after montage. On top of that, the plot was all over the place so that it somehow seemed like both too much and nothing at all was happening.

Here are my season (and arc) rankings:

S3 -> S1 -> S5 -> S2 -> S4 ->->-> S6

3A -> 3B (mostly on the strength of the finale) -> 1A -> 5A -> 2A -> 1B -> 4A -> 2B -> 4B -> 5B -> 6B -> 6A

[InsertWordHere]

My season rankings are the same as @KingOfHearts. Arcs would be 3A-> 1A-> 1B-> 2A-> 4A-> 3B-> 5A-> 2B-> 5B-> 4B---------->6B/A

I cannot choose which part of Season 6 is worse. Previously, 4B almost made me check out of this show, not out of anger, but just plain disinterest, so it means a lot that Season 6 in its entirety was somehow worse for me. 4A is before 3B mostly on the strength of its antagonist, even thought the finale of that arc was not great. I still have a soft spot for 2A. 

Neverland and Pan still rule all. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[TheGreenKnight]

1A/B > 3A > 3B > 4A > 5B > 5A > 2A (2.01-“TMD”) > 6A > 4B > 6B > 2B

S1 > S3 > S5 > S4 > S2 > S6

Odd how all the odd seasons are my favorites. S1 and S3 + 4A are the peak of the series, imo. I love 5 as a whole, too, but it has several low points (Merida in 5A and the Rumbelle mess in 5B). I enjoyed the first 4 eps of 6A and the episode where Charming and Snow are cursed. 6B, the only worthwhile episode is the musical one. The next best would be the finale, although it drags to a degree. Fiona had a good actress, but the plot and character themselves were just...bleh.

Edited May 18, 2017 by TheGreenKnight

[Camera One]

I don't think I can rank seasons because of how disparate the two halves could be.  Even each arc could have a few really bad ones that could throw everything off.  Except Season 6... the whole thing pretty much sucked.  I only put 6B slightly ahead because of the musical episode and there was slightly more of a direction and less Evil Queen/Rumbelle.

1A  >  1B  >  2A    >  4A  >  3A   > 5B  >  2B  =  5A   >   3B   >  4B  >  6B   >  6A

Edited May 18, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

S3A will be my all-time favorite. That's when I started shipping CS and really got into fandom. Season 1 was great, but it's like a different show compared with the rest of the series. 

My analysis of the remaining half/seasons are colored by one or two episodes that I either absolutely loved or hated, which likely skews the lineup, but it's not like I can ignore the episodes. For example, 3B fares slightly higher than it would have because of the CS time-travel adventure. 4A scores lower because of Breaking Glass and the bathroom/shots thing. Despite the Merida nonsense, I enjoyed quite a bit of 5A, especially the romantic CS stuff. Also Dark Hook was Hot. Colin was amazing! Unlike many, I also liked JMo's performance as the Dark Swan. If I had known 2A would be the high point of the Snow-Emma relationship, I wouldn't have believed it then. And Tallahassee was a great episode with the CS beanstalk adventure (I enjoyed Hook right from the start in Season 2, even though I didn't ship CS until S3). 2B scores higher in retrospect because how worse other arcs were. Plus the last two episodes were pretty good. 

5B is colored by the hideous season finale, and Hades got boring real fast. And yet I put 4B lower because the author plot was utter incoherent nonsense. S6 is of course the worst, with the second half having no redeeming features other than the songs. 

Here my lineup: S3A > S1 > S5A/S2A > S3B > S2B > S4A/S5B > S4B >> S6A >>> S6B. 

[Camera One]

I was thinking back on this show and the "reveal" of the big mythology items on this show.

1) Mythology of The Dark One

2) Mythology of The Dark Curse

3) Mythology of The Savior

4) Mythology of the Storybook

Out of all of these, The Dark One Mythology was the only one that made any sort of sense, despite all the flaws.  

Their "exploration" of The Dark Curse mythology was so weak.  Fiona created the Dark Curse by mixing random fairy spells, so she could banish all the children away?  Knowing what we know now, that's not even that bad.  Once the "Curse" was created, they could use a multitude of different ways to bring all the children back to the Enchanted Forest.  

The mythology of the Savior makes zero sense (probably the worst out of the bunch).  

[oncebluethrone]

I personally loved Season 6, but that's because I don't care about potholes or retcons or continuity issues or any of that stuff and because I am a fan of the entire show first and then Captain Swan and Snowing. The EQ/Regina is also one of my favorite characters (she does annoy me sometimes, though) so I enjoyed having an arc centered around her. Especially because I felt like I was watching Season 1 again, but this time the EQ was in Storybrooke instead of the EF and because Regina wasn't constantly complaining about not getting her happy ending. I loved the Untold Stories (minus A Bitter Draught) and appreciated how each one connected to either the Savior or EQ-split arcs. I did think the whole heart-sharing bit was weird, though. I enjoyed both Jaladdin episodes and didn't think for a minute that Emma was out of character in episode 15. I believe that she was confused and not thinking straight. That is a very human thing to do, after all. I thought the Black Fairy could have been more formidable as the "Greatest Evil Ever," but with the short amount of time she was given, I thought she did pretty well. I was a fan of the entire Savior arc (encompassing the Saviorology, Black Fairy, and Final Battle parts). I loved all the Captain Swan stuff, whether or not one of them was keeping a secret. It adds more angst and drama and I like that sort of stuff. I also loved the fact that we got two Snowing centrics and a really good David centric. I believe that Emma's walls were high this season in order to show how far she's come when they came down. There were a few episodes I didn't like that much ( I'll Be Your Mirror, A Bitter Draught, and Ill-Boding Patterns), but I loved or liked every other episode. The Song in Your Heart is tied with the CS movie for my favorite episode of all time and The Final Battle is my second favorite season finale/episode (possibly tied with Operation Mongoose). There are also 6 other episodes I consider all-time favorites this season. 

This is my ranking:

6>3B>5A>3A>4A>2A>1>4B>5B>2B

[asabovesobelow]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

 

The mythology of the Savior makes zero sense (probably the worst out of the bunch).  

I really wish they hadn't added all of these Saviors. Emma should have been 'the one'. The idea of her being fated to rescuing these people from a curse was exciting and I liked the mystery shrouding that. Later saying there are Saviors all over the place cheapened Emma's role.

And then saying they were all destined to die horrible deaths added the final straw of stupidity to something that was actually pretty cool.

[Inquirer]

My ranking would be S1 > 3A > 2A > 5B > 4A > 3B > 2B > 5A > 4B > S6.

The last four are the only ones I think are bad, and even 2B looks better in retrospect due to how much worse it got with the other three.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Inquirer

[Curio]

I think the only season I could realistically go back and rewatch every episode would be Season 3. Season 1 I can't get through because I get too upset about Graham. Season 2 has a lot of random duds and the overall story wasn't satisfying. Season 4 had Operation Dumbass. Season 5 was generally okay, but I wasn't a fan of the Underworld arc and hated the finale, so I wouldn't be able to sit through those final two episodes again. And I wish I could forget Season 6 ever happened.

I think I'm actually going to watch the Season 3 finale this Sunday at 8/7c and pretend that was the series finale, and then quickly go to Youtube and watch a few select scenes from Seasons 4, 5, and 6 as an unofficial epilogue.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Curio

[TheGreenKnight]

The only case where a few eps made the difference for me was between 5B and 5A. I enjoy Dark Swan (and Merlin/Nimue), but I love Zelena and "Our Decay," so... I almost put 4B above 6A just for "Sympathy for the Devil," "PUS," and "The Heart of Gold." But outside those three eps, I hate nearly everything else about 4B whereas 6A was just boring/bland (pre-Rumpel eating the show in 6B). On another subject, I was thinking the other day about which arcs the main characters were at their best in (as far as being interesting/entertaining). I'd probably say:

Rumpel - 3A, without a doubt. His interactions with Pan and Neal, then his sacrifice, were the height of his character. No surprise his best arc included as little of Belle the enabler as possible.

Emma - S1, 4A, 5A. S1's slowburn with Emma was great and her fighting with Regina was what made the show for me. 4A, of course, had her relationship with Elsa and Ingrid. And I loved her in her Dark Swan role, "I'm not nothing, I've never been nothing," and the CS focus there. Hard to pick just one. I liked her conflict in 3B, too, but not as much as those other arcs.

Regina - S1, 5B. Regina really was at her best when she was full-out villain. I almost included 2A because I do like a lot of what they do with Regina there in relation to Henry, but the writing was all over the place, unfortunately. She was probably next-best in 5B thanks to the Henry, Sr. episode, coming to terms with Zelena/Cora, then the episode where Robin dies. And, unlike most here, I enjoyed the 5B finale. 

Snow - S1. Not really much choice. The only other arc where she was any good was 2A, and even there she annoyed me off and on. I really liked Snow in the first season. She was the character that suffered the most as the series went on. They just never gave her anything to do except for 4B where she ended up with the atrocious eggnapping plot. I know part of that was Goodwin wanting a reduced role, but Snow didn't have to be so insufferable when it came to Emma.

Charming - Um... I guess 3A for the Charming-Hook scenes?? I liked his episode in 3B about his failure to protect Emma, too. I don't know, I never really liked Charming as more than eye candy. Although I guess he was alright in the flashback scenes in S1. He was a douche during the present day/Curse though.

Belle - 4A. I was never a fan of OUAT's Belle (and I didn't like Ravin in the role either), but she definitely got worse as the series went along. Her crowning moment of awesome though was when she kicked Rumpel to the curb at the end of 4A. I think the best part of it was how unexpected it was, considering she was/is such a doormat to Rumpel. She had some good moments in 5B and 6A, too, while she was totally repulsed by Rumpel. 

Hook - 3A for flirty Hook, but I'd pick 3B as my favorite. After that, 5B.

Zelena - 5B. I actually think she improved every arc from 3B to 4B to 5B before vanishing in S6.

Henry - ? S1, I guess? No, I believe I'd say S6 when he was dealing with TEQ and Fiona, actually. Maybe a better way to put it would be when was he at his least annoying?

[asabovesobelow]

17 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Henry - ? S1, I guess? No, I believe I'd say S6 when he was dealing with TEQ and Fiona, actually. Maybe a better way to put it would be when was he at his least annoying?

Season 5 at the fountain?

[Inquirer]

Rumple - S1 & 3A.  Rumple in S1 was the perfect balance of sympathetic and repulsive, tragic and evil.  And I agree with TheGreenKnight that 3A was his highest point and that the character probably shouldn't have been revived afterward.  I liked him well enough in 4A, but it was downhill after that.

Emma - 3A, 3B Finale & 4A.  I think S1 Emma is overrated, and that when you put aside the annoying "I wanna go back to New York!" phase in 3B, Emma from the S3 premiere all the way to the two-hour episode in 4A was Emma at her best and most developed.

Regina - S1 & 3A.  While I definitely agree Regina worked best as a pure villain, she also made a good "villain teammate" in 3A, with everybody (including her!) being fully aware of how evil she is but that in some cases it's a necessary evil in order to save Henry.

Snow - S1 & 2A.  Agreed with TheGreenKnight, no character was more destroyed over the course of the show's run than poor Snow.

Charming -  S1 & 3B.  S1 flashback Charming was awesome, and I really liked him and his interactions with others in 3B too.  Afterward, he was limited to mostly just being Snow's accessory and had a ridiculously up & down relationship with Hook.  Although he still had good moments with Emma.

Belle - S1 & 6A.  When Belle was just a minor character, she was fine.  After that, she got annoying until 6A, in which she suddenly became awesome...only for the show to blow that all to pieces with 6B.  I think Belle got screwed over the most by the time of the finale, she had absolutely nothing to do except get back with her abuser because he did one decent thing.

Hook - 3A, 3B & 5B.  S3 Hook is probably my favorite, striking the best line between villain and hero, but I did enjoy his official crossing over into true hero territory in 5B, especially his adventure with King Arthur in 5x21.

Zelena - 5A & 5B.  No question about it.  She was annoying in 3B and 4B, and underutilized in all of S6.  In S5, she was perfect.

Henry - 5A & 5B, except for the finale, of course.  I actually quite liked how finally-a-teenager Henry was portrayed for most of this season.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Inquirer

[InsertWordHere]

Rumple- 3A, and I agree that he should have stayed dead. But he did do a lot of standing around talking to hallucinations in that arc, so maybe Season 1 Rumple edges him out. 

Emma- It's really hard for me to choose. I thought she was great throughout the show's run up until Season 6. I agree Season 1 "walls" Emma is overrated. I guess 4A Emma if I had to choose. She remains my forever fave despite Season 6.

Regina I actually enjoyed the most in 5B, excluding the finale. 2A I had the most interest in the character but 2B made me lose interest and makes her 2A arc look shallow in retrospect. I still wish she had been tricking Cora. 

Snow- Gonna have to go with Seasons 1 and 2A Snow as well. They really did a number on that character in later seasons.

Charming- I think Season 2 was his best and he was probably the only character who improved that season from season 1. Maybe Belle as well, but she was barely in Season 1 and for part of it she wasn't really aware. So yeah, Season 2 Charms is my jam. From keeping the town together to protecting Henry to helping Regina cope with the Daniel Zombie in the first half, to his support of Snow after the Cora incident in the second half. His only misstep was his insistence on going back to the EF without really considering Emma's feelings, but he seems to have entirely forgotten that desire after 3B. 

He loses points in Season 3A for his secret keeping and in 3B for not really seeming all that desperate to get back to Emma. Flashback Charming in Season 1 is probably the most endearing Charming but the shine wore off in the present day scenes.

Belle- 2A is the best for Belle IMO. She wasn't in enough of Season 1 and her later seasons mostly revolved around Rumple lying to her.

Hook- 3A, no question. What a wonderful arc for Hook. 

Zelena- Season 5? I don't really have a strong opinion on Zelena one way or the other.

Henry- Season 1.

Edited May 18, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[RadioGirl27]

My ranking would be S3>S2>S1>S5>S4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>S6

Season 3 is my favourite, hand down, it's the only one I wouldn't mind rewatching complete, even if there are a couple of things I hate (Regina having white magic, Snow casting the curse). Seasons 1 and 2 are at the same level, with season 2 slightly ahead because of the introducton of Hook. Again, I like seasons 4 and 5 more or less the same, but I hate season 4 more, if that makes sense (there are more things I actively hate in 4 than in 5). Season 6 is just abysmal. There are very few things I would save from it.  

Edited May 18, 2017 by RadioGirl27

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

Regina having white magic

Was this ever brought up again in the entire series? I feel like A&E mentioned it would be addressed in Season 6, but I'm pretty sure Season 3 was the one and only time we've ever seen Regina use white magic on screen. Did they realize they made a mistake and backtracked?

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, Curio said:

Was this ever brought up again in the entire series? I feel like A&E mentioned it would be addressed in Season 6, but I'm pretty sure Season 3 was the one and only time we've ever seen Regina use white magic on screen. Did they realize they made a mistake and backtracked?

Isn't that why she couldn't wield the wand in the Season 5 premiere? 

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Isn't that why she couldn't wield the wand in the Season 5 premiere? 

That whole wand explanation was so vague that I don't even know what they were going for. Did Regina's white magic disappear from her body completely when she used the wand later to send Zelena away in the tornado? Was Regina unable to use the wand just because she had done some good deeds lately and she was "too nice" to use it?

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, Curio said:

That whole wand explanation was so vague that I don't even know what they were going for. Did Regina's white magic disappear from her body completely when she used the wand later to send Zelena away in the tornado? Was Regina unable to use the wand just because she had done some good deeds lately and she was "too nice" to use it?

Your questions are--- well, you know.

I was confused about how Zelena could use it, but I guess her use of light magic in later flashbacks explained that part? 

[Shanna Marie]

22 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

What did they do to this show that I am so disengaged when I used to be so intense about my feelings about it?

Bringing this over from the episode thread because my thoughts aren't really about the episode.

For me, I think the reason my feelings were so intense was that they took characters who were familiar but not really fleshed out and made them into "real" people with histories and inner lives. Fairy tale Snow White is little more than pretty and way too trusting. This show delved into what it was like for her to be thrown out of her home, had her become a badass bandit warrior princess who fought for her kingdom and her prince. Fairy tale and movie Prince Charming is a non-entity, but this show made him a farmboy forced to pose as his princely twin and trying to retain his everyman inherent goodness while trying to find his own place in the world. Captain Hook is little more than a colorful foe for Peter Pan, but on this show, we learned how he became a pirate, how he became Hook, saw that he was a walking ball of rage and pain but still had it in him to be good and empathetic. I may not like Regina, but she's more three-dimensional than her fairytale counterpart. And in Emma, we got a real-world Disney princess who carried a gun, drove a Bug, took a chainsaw to Regina's apple tree.

And then they gradually chipped away at all the depth, eventually turning these characters into cartoons. They grew overly fond of the Evil Queen until she became nothing more than cartoony camp, constantly upping her evil even while preaching her redemption in the present. It got to where her slaughtering villages was treated like Marvin the Martian wanting to blow up earth. And then we got season 6. Snow was reduced to spouting platitudes about hope, unless the story required her to be desperate enough to do something drastic for a plot. And then she ended up totally ceding the kingdom she fought a war for to the person she found against. In an effort to shock us, I guess, they kept giving us bad deeds from Hook's past that didn't fit his character while treating the trauma he was going through in the present like it never happened. He was basically the coyote in a road runner cartoon, falling off a cliff and being fine in the next scene. Instead of keeping Emma on a human scale, they had to make her the Savior of everything and submit her to non-stop doom. David just repeated the same loops over and over.

No wonder we're disengaged. Instead of developing characters as the show went on, they flattened them and wasted all the potential.

[superloislane]

1 > 3A > 2A > 4A > 5A > 4B > 2B > 5B > 3B > 6B > 6A

Season 1 is still the best, still has the best structure and I felt like everything had a purpose. I can watch every episode and still enjoy it (other than the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree-I irrationally hate that episode). There are a number of episodes which I'd put in my top 10.

3A was great and had all the characters working together for a singular purpose with their other personal stories fitting in well. Season 3B was the only time (other than now) where I wanted to quit the show. I hated it. Only the CS finale saved it from utter nonsense. Zelena was incredibly boring and annoying in equal measure and it didn't help that her 'I'm your sister!' came only a couple of episodes after Peter Pan's 'I'm your father!' revelation. I think Bleeding Through, A Curious Thing and Kansas are the worst run of episodes in the show's history. I used to talk about this show with two friends of mine and they BOTH stopped watching the show after Regina got white magic and they never came back. 3B was when all the stuff I hate about the writing in the rest of the seasons actually started.

Season 6 as a whole is the weakest - there's no rhyme or reason for anything happening this season and nothing makes sense. It's like they threw darts at a dartboard filled with ideas and just went with them. When the final battle is with a woman no one but Rumple had any personal connection to (and even he didn't really know her) and she has literally no reason to do any of the things she's doing other than a prophecy telling her to do them, then you have a real problem. And don't even get me started on the Evil Queen crap.

I really enjoyed 4A. I felt like the Frozen stuff brought back the whimsical side of the show and when I remember it, that half was really bright and happy with Emma and Elsa, Emma and Hook, they actually had flashbacks which told a story - other than Breaking Glass (kill it with fire) and the 4A finale, I enjoyed it a lot. I also enjoyed 4B even though the story itself was the stupidest thing ever and nothing made sense but at least they had a little bit of fun with Cruella and the others.

5A was enjoyable and I loved a lot of the stuff in Camelot but I felt like they should've have done WAY more with Emma and her parents. The Emma/Hook stuff was pretty great and kept my attention. Merida was pointless though. 5B had so much potential and they really wasted it. The Hades/Zelena thing really derailed it and the story set up in the premiere of helping the people down there was completely forgotten. And season 5 as a whole has been totally forgotten in season 6! No one has brought up anything! Seriously, how has no one brought up the fact that Hook was dead a minute ago? Even he hasn't said anything about it - so it's like nothing about that season even mattered!

I actually started rewatching the show lately and I just finished season 2. 2A was REALLY fun with the princess adventure and the Emma/Snow relationship. However, watching it made me realise that I didn't like Charming in season 2. I liked him better than in season 1, but he punches Whale, acts very cocky a lot of the time and I think it's the whiplash with hoping there's going to be an Emma/Charming relationship but then realising there's nothing. Seeing Emma and her parents was the main thing I couldn't wait to see between season 1 and 2 and we got so little. But Charming is the one who talks about going back to the Enchanted Forest WITHOUT EMMA because 'she can take care of herself'! I mean he had only pretty much met her a week earlier and he already wanted to leave. He got far better from season 3 on and the bad parenting writing went to Snow then.

[TheGreenKnight]

The 3B finale is actually my least favorite part of 3B, which is one of my favorite arcs. I love everything else about it (although the flashback to Zelena's life with her adoptive father is really slapdash), but the 2-parter was harmless filler that dragged, similar to the 6 finale, and then it unleashed the unholy Marian plot at the end (the fact that it resulted in Zelena's return is the only thing good I can say about it). I've tried to understand the love for it, but, even imagining it from the perspective of a CS fan, the 3B finale wasn't too romantic or interesting, imo. Then again, I remember an extreme hatred for the 5B finale last year and didn't get it either. I'm wondering if it has something to do with Emma being with Regina or Hook throughout the mini-adventure that affects the reaction to those two finales? I'd probably rank the finales: 1 > 5 > 6 > 3 > 2 > 4

[AnotherCastle]

Character screentime data for the S6 finale and S6 overall.

[InsertWordHere]

2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I've tried to understand the love for it, but, even imagining it from the perspective of a CS fan, the 3B finale wasn't too romantic or interesting, imo.

I like that you've tried to understand it from another perspective. I try to do the same with episodes focused on characters I don't love. For me, and keep in mind I'm a bit of an odd duck, I was bound to love the 3B finale simply because I love time travel. As long as they didn't mess up the basic workings of it, I was going to enjoy it. It was a fresh concept that they had never tried before (hat traveling hands not withstanding) and it was just a fun idea IMO. 4B's finale, while also being a new concept, didn't work as well for me because the motivations to put the characters in the book seemed a bit off. Zelena's motivations were crystal clear to me.

I still wish they had worked in closed loop time travel and not messed with Snowing's first meeting, but these writers aren't clever enough for that and I knew it even then, so I enjoyed it for what it was. It also worked nicely in closing Emma's arc that half season by having her discover "there's no place like home." I myself was not happy with a lot of 3B, especially the dropped ball on what the characters did in the missing year (Nothing. They did nothing until the plot called for it. Except Neal), so for me, the finale managed to single-handedly recover that arc. 

As for the romance, I agree that they kind of messed up the romance on two fronts. First, they made Snowing's first meeting less epic. That's bad. Someone should ask A&E if the new "epic love story" is going to be EPIC! like "Snow Falls" or lower case epic like "Snow Drifts". As for CS, they spent that whole arc keeping close-lipped (heh, lip curse) on Emma's feelings for Hook, so much so that when she did decide to kiss him, it left some viewers feeling she had changed her mind out of the blue, or just because she learned he traded the ship. This happened, IMO, because of their need to leave viewers guessing "will they or won't they" until the last minute. I would have preferred it if there had been more build up during the adventure itself (although the dance and past!Hook shenanigans were great), and not just left Hook's speech and Emma's seeming change of heart crammed in at the end.

Edited May 19, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[KAOS Agent]

Why do I love the 3B finale? It has nothing to do with Captain Swan (although I do enjoy Hook's role in helping and the fun Hook/Rumpel interactions). I love it because it was a true fun adventure episode that featured Emma. It gave her a chance to understand where she came from. She got to be the princess and experienced the things she had been robbed of with her miserable childhood. She saw her parents in a different light, something that I think was  abstract to her because she met them with their cursed personalities. It involved all the characters in their original fairy tale incarnations and I thought it was a creative way to shoot a finale that involved Snow, but could conceivably work without her filming new scenes should Ginny have been unavailable due to her pregnancy. All of the characters interacted with each other in some way and those interactions meant something. It didn't involve half the cast off on their own spinning their wheels while somehow still not truly interacting. It had several flaws and things I did not like at all, but overall, it was very enjoyable.

The Season 4 finale could have been equally as good, but it was too retread for me. They chose not to explore what it meant for Regina to walk in Snow's shoes and kept everything to a very shallow level, simply giving previous stories and the same lines to the different characters. The only new adventure was Deckhand!Hook and Emma and that lasted six minutes total. They also got way too cute with the meta stuff. It doesn't help that that Author meta continues into the story today. That pen needed to stay dead. 

The Season 5 finale was just annoying. I don't like it when they separate the cast like that such that they can't interact with each other. It didn't help that Henry really took over the finale and he's not at all my favorite. His plan would have killed several people even if it hadn't meant that his grandparents, aunt and future stepfather were trapped in a different world forever. He never really seemed all that worried about that. Then there was the horrifyingly embarrassing fountain scene, which was capped off by Emma declaring Henry had saved them all. No, he was a selfish idiot who was responsible for their predicament in the first place. I hated that Henry never faced the rightful consequences of his dumb actions. Instead, he was given credit for saving everyone when he was just fixing what he'd screwed up in the first place. Someone remind me why they think Henry as the lead in the reboot is a good idea.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

For me, and keep in mind I'm a bit of an odd duck, I was bound to love the 3B finale simply because I love time travel.

Me too.  It had nothing to do with CS.  Though I too was bothered by the changing of Snowing's history and how we never saw anything new with them.  They just got to play a retread which would have been boring to act out.

As KAOSAgent said, the Season 4 finale could had potential.  But again, it was retread with different characters playing the same old roles with nothing actually new explored.  

It wasn't a finale, but the Wish Realm could have been a very emotional episode.  If the focus had been on Emma and Snowing.  But instead, it was basically to give The Evil Queen a true love.

Finally, the Season 6 finale had potential too, with a final final Curse.  But it was the exact same thing with Emma not believing and Henry trying to convince her and failing.  

The MO of A&E is pretty much putting lipstick on a pig and trotting it out as if it's a new animal.  Or flogging a dead horse.  Or a combo... flogging a dead pig wearing lipstick.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I hated that Henry never faced the rightful consequences of his dumb actions. Instead, he was given credit for saving everyone when he was just fixing what he'd screwed up in the first place. Someone remind me why they think Henry as the lead in the reboot is a good idea.

This has been the case from the start. Henry never gets disciplined for any disrespect to Emma or any of the crap he pulls. That the writers, knowing Jared is a weak actor, kept giving him pivotal episodes in recent seasons says much to them projecting themselves onto him, IMO. No wonder the reboot is centered on Henry. It's probably another metaphor for themselves as young writers whose hopes were knocked out of them by Hollywood.

[Camera One]

I just rewatched most of the Musical episode, and some parts were more emotional to me than the first viewing given that the 2-hour finale was such an unsatisfying dud.  There were a lot more "lasts" in that episode despite having 2 hours following it.  

Still, I found myself bored with the storyline and pretty much wanting to fast-forward to the songs, which was when the actors actually looked like they were having fun.  I even fast-forwarded through the talking part of the wedding ceremony.  I do like the final song more now despite the "nah nah nah" part... I prefer actual lyrics.

Both the musical and the finale wrote Emma as very frustrating to watch.  In the musical episode, they had her pretty much giving up and serving up her heart to The Black Fairy on a silver platter until Henry ran in.  In the finale episode, they had her refuse to believe and even burn the book and go back to Boston before suddenly popping back up in Storybrooke.  No one wants to see that.  It's not character development or growth... it's just boring dragging out of plot before the climax.  

Edited May 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Two things I forgot to mention.

- Rumple actually betrayed them in this episode, when he took Regina/Zelena's potion against The Black Fairy and used it to freeze Emma's love one, so Fiona could kill her.  Makes the big last supper even more revolting.

- I had to laugh when The Black Fairy just stood there listening to Emma sing her song.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I will admit that the romantic parts of the season 3 finale were a huge part of the appeal, not so much the kiss at the end as the way they drew together during the adventure. But I think a big part of why that episode was fun was that it was an adventure. It was active. The characters were doing stuff that mattered to the story, and the tension kept rising because everything they did only seemed to make matters worse and required them to dig deeper. It was actually good plotting.

The season 4 finale had a potentially interesting concept that was terribly developed and executed, which is basically the tagline for this show. It would have been interesting to see the world where the villains always won or a reality where the heroes were seen as villains, and vice versa -- Bandit Snow was a menace and Regina was protecting the people from her, for instance.  But all they did was change the casting of who played the role, which said nothing about heroes and villains and didn't even make sense. This was supposed to be the world of Isaac's novel, so the casting wouldn't even have been noticeable. No one would have known who Regina was, that she was the Evil Queen of most versions of the Snow White story, so making her the hero in Snow's role wouldn't have meant anything. It wouldn't have been bold and daring. Making Snow White the villain might have been an interesting twist, but it needs to show how Snow became a villain. Otherwise, instead of being a twist, it's just a villain who happens to be named Snow White. If they hadn't acted like they were making some kind of grand statement, it wouldn't have been so bad, or if it hadn't followed the arc of talking about heroes and villains, where this was the culmination of a bad story, and if it had any actual consequences, it could have been interesting. What did Snow and Regina learn about switching roles? But the part of Henry figuring it out, getting into the story realm, finding Hook, the Wookiee prisoner gag, etc., was kind of fun. I may have liked Henry there more than I have at any time since season one. 

[Curio]

Quote

I've tried to understand the love for it, but, even imagining it from the perspective of a CS fan, the 3B finale wasn't too romantic or interesting, imo.

I'll straight up admit it—yes, the 3B finale is my favorite because it was basically just Emma/Hook hanging out for two hours. That's all I've ever wanted for those two characters. I just want them to share screen time and have fun together because I love watching the actors' chemistry and they're my two favorite characters. No, they don't have to be super sappy and romantic for me to enjoy watching them, and in fact, I enjoy their interactions more when they're in adventure mode with some quick flirting here and there. I love watching the discussion about Marty McWho, watching them hide in among the bushes (cookie to whoever gets that reference), watching Emma tease Hook about being jealous of himself, watching Emma and Hook taking shots and flirting, watching Hook punch himself, watching the gang run around the castle, watching Emma and Hook having a heartfelt conversation in the woods about losing loved ones, watching Hook swat the Snow Bug away... Those two hours packed more character development and heart into the CS interactions than the next three seasons combined.

All I ever wanted after the Season 3B finale was another fun adventure like that for Captain Swan, and we never really got it. And it makes me depressed like I wasted three years of my life waiting for something that seemed inevitable at the time. After watching the 3B finale, I assumed we'd get plenty more adventures like that for Emma and Hook, but the writers wasted the next 60+ episodes on the the most random shit. We kind of got something similar in the Season 4 finale, but their interactions were brief and it wasn't even the real Captain Hook. And in "Firebird," most of that short adventure was melodramatic and not fun. The 3B finale is so much fun to watch because it's fun and not melodramatic.

I know everyone has their own preferences and opinions, but I think Emma and Hook have the best on screen chemistry, so of course I'm going to like an episode that allows them to interact all the time. Whenever Emma is saddled with Regina, Regina fans might be content because Regina tends to get the meatier material in Emma/Regina episodes, but Emma always loses her spark around Regina and becomes a doormat. The Season 6 Wish Realm episodes made Emma a complete rag. And look at the Season 5 finale where Emma had to sit around and listen to Regina whine all the time. Sure, if you like Regina, that was probably some great character development, but Emma literally rolled her eyes in that conversation and could only say robotic lines like, "Are you okay?" "You okay?" "I know that I can't." "I'm sorry about earlier." "I wasn't there for you." "I can't imagine how that feels." "I believe in you." In the Season 3B finale, Emma and Hook were treated as equals and neither character had to be a doormat to the other one. But in every other Emma/[Insert Character Name] episode, Emma generally isn't as fun to watch because she's either playing the helpful emotional support or she's depressed and angry. That's also why I like the Season 3B finale because it seems like one of the few episodes where Emma just said "screw it" and had a little bit of fun for herself without anyone egging her on about it. She chose to get flirty with Past Hook for no other reason than she just wanted to. Even with everyone's futures on the line, Emma was able to have fun and laugh a little bit. I don't think it's surprising that Jennifer Morrison still quotes that episode as her favorite episode to film.

Edit: I'll point out that this is also why I don't enjoy the Season 5A finale. Even though it technically focused on Emma and Hook and I generally tend to enjoy their interactions the most, making both of them Dark Ones essentially changed their personalities and both characters were incredibly depressing and sad to watch. So personally, having a good finale doesn't just mean including any sort of interaction between characters I like, it's also required that those characters are having fun and the plot is more of an adventure instead of melodrama.

Edit 2: I just rewatched some clips from the 3B finale and forgot how awesome Snow and Charming used to be. They were the reason I fell for the show in Season 1, so I forgot that a huge draw of the time travel adventure finale was seeing those two have a fun romantic adventure together again.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

I love the 3B finale. At the time I did have some reservations that they had changed Snow Falls (another fav episode), but it was a retcon that did not change anything essential or take away from Snowing as a couple. Maybe the horrendous retcons in later seasons has colored my view. 

I too love the fact that Emma and Hook had a fun adventure and Emma learned something important about her origins that wasn't gloom and doom.  

Tallahassee was another great Emma/Hook adventure (obviously). Besides, Emma in the EF with Season 2A Mary Margaret, learning how badass her mother was also a great grouping, along with Mulan and Aurora.

In every episode Emma is paired with Regina, she becomes a whipping post for the latter, even when Regina is trying to "save" her, as in the Wish Realm. Henry is another drag. Emma was literally not herself in the Wishverse or in the Final Battle, and Regina/Henry had to whip her into shape. They had the primary agency. 

And in the last two Emma episodes, she presented herself as a pig to the slaughter. Sure--she's the "savior", and it takes courage to sacrifice oneself; but in a season that penalized first Emma, then Hook, for not relying on other people for support, the message that Emma had to face the final battle alone because of "prophecy" was horribly confusing and regressive.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Rumsy4

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

In every episode Emma is paired with Regina, she becomes a whipping post for the latter, even when Regina is trying to "save" her, as in the Wish Realm. Henry is another drag. Emma was literally not herself in the Wishverse or in the Final Battle, and Regina/Henry had to whip her into shape. They had the primary agency. 

This may be why I tend to see Hook as an extension of Emma rather than his own character. I think 5B is the only time during the CS storyline that everything didn't revolve entirely around Emma's feelings/actions/reactions. He isn't quite as bad as Belle and Robin though.

[oncebluethrone]

I love the Season 3 finale because it features my two favorite characters going on an adventure as well as lots of Snowing stuff. I don't mind that they changed the Snowing meeting because nothing important was changed. In fact, I might like it better than the first one because Emma got to be part of it. Even if I didn't ship CS (which I can't imagine doing), I would have probably still have enjoyed this episode because of how fun it was. The biggest draw in those episodes for me is Captain Swan and the Snowing meeting 2.0. I love the Season 4 finale because it was an alternate reality and because it had adventure in it. No where near as much as Season 3, though. I loved all the different versions of the characters, as well. Except maybe the Light One. The only part I really liked about the Season 5 finale was the LoUS part. This finale was the first time I was ever annoyed by Henry. Thankfully, I haven't been as annoyed by him since. I love the Season 6 finale because it centered around Emma (no matter how passive she was for the majority of it, the main goal of it was getting her to believe), it had adventure (I didn't mind that the adventure wasn't useful), and because I think psychological battles are a better fit for this show than action battles. I also think Jared's acting was the best its been.

[Kktjones]

7 hours ago, Curio said:

I'll straight up admit it—yes, the 3B finale is my favorite because it was basically just Emma/Hook hanging out for two hours.

Thank you @Curio for articulating what I loved about the S3 finale so much better than I could have. For me it was such a great payoff to the angsty 3B arc and was just plain fun. They had a clear goal and had to use their wits (no magical fixes) to solve the problems they were faced with. You were also in my head with your disappointment that the show was never as good again. I have no idea why they never let Emma & Hook have another fun adventure (and don't even get me started on Adam promising they would "embark on an epic adventure full of romance, danger & passion" in 6B - he knew exactly how to bait the CS fandom and I really hate him for it).

I thought the first three finales were much better than the last three. In fact the S2 finale is really the only reason I kept watching after a horrible 2B. I found the last two to be especially pointless and boring, and I completely resent the fact that they had Emma & Hook separated for both (not to mention in the S6 mid-season finale & premiere). Anyway, here's how I would rank the season finales:

S3 -> S1 -> S2 -> S4 ---------------------------------------------------------> S6 -> S5

[Curio]

27 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

They had a clear goal and had to use their wits (no magical fixes) to solve the problems they were faced with.

 

Yes! I forgot to mention that part. Magic has become way too much of a crutch recently, with Regina being able to say, "Well, let me just apply some Generic Magic™ to this bean and I can fix everything!" I love it when the characters are forced to be smart and fix their problems with minimal magic intervention, but the writers don't allow the non-magical characters to have big wins anymore. The final battle was so anticlimactic because they had everyone stand on the sidelines again and not offer any help. Hook at least tried to run after Emma and do something, but Charming stopped him. Why were they all content with just watching Emma die?

The magic used in the 3B finale wasn't overwhelming and made sense to the plot. The fact that Zelena was successful creating a time-traveling portal was actually treated as a big deal. When Emma was finally able to ignite the Black Fairy's wand at the very end, it was a "hell yeah!" moment for her. The best part about it was how Emma worked through her issues mostly by herself and was able to light the wand because of her own hard work, not because of Hook constantly egging her on like Henry in the Season 6 finale saying over and over, "You need to believe!" And Hook didn't have to kill Emma's parents to get Emma to become a hero, either. All he did was stand by and be a supportive friend, only pushed back a little when Emma kept making NYC excuses, and let Emma talk out her issues by herself and allowed her to come to her own conclusion.

Even though the Season 6 finale was supposed to be Emma's "epic" final hour as the Savior, the 3B finale actually felt more intimate and more quintessential Emma Swan. For starters, it was actually Emma's real personality the entire episode with no memory alterations, and it was more about Emma coming to terms with having a home, family, and love, which was always Emma's biggest character hurdle. The Season 6 finale seemed to be focusing more through Henry's lens and how he sees Emma, which means the episode was bound to focus more on Emma's role as the Savior and not her role as a daughter, mother, or lover. It's kind of funny that Emma didn't really mention missing Henry when she was time traveling; she only specifically mentioned missing her parents. I don't think that was the writers' intention, but as a card-carrying member of the Shut Up, Henry Club, I'll take it as subliminal messaging.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Curio

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

The Season 6 finale seemed to be focusing more through Henry's lens and how he sees Emma, which means the episode was bound to focus more on Emma's role as the Savior and not her role as a daughter, mother, or lover.

Henry has definitely always seen Emma as the Saviour more than anything else. I have doubts that he even really sees her as a person who should be able to have her own hopes and dreams separate from the fate imposed on her by her role as Saviour. If you look at the S6 finale through the lens of Henry, who spends the whole time trying to convince Emma to step up and be the Saviour, it gets pretty disturbing. Henry is essentially working to get his mother to die. Everyone was aware of the prophecy of the Final Battle. Everyone knew Emma was fated to die. Henry spent his entire time leading Emma to her death. Did he ever show any discomfort with doing this? Did he consider the person beyond the Saviour role? Contrast this with his reaction to Regina sacrificing herself in the S2 finale and it gets really icky. I get that it's not intended to be seen this way, but it's a very consistent theme throughout the show.

I can also take a look at Snow's idiocy in S2 vs S6 with regards to Emma. Regina was more important than anyone else getting out via bean in S2, but she just stood around and watched Emma die in S6. She couldn't bring herself to execute Regina for her crimes thus putting everyone else in danger, but she was fine sacrificing Emma's childhood and happiness for everyone else. I don't understand this at all. It's like Snow wasn't looking at her daughter, she was looking at the Saviour. This is why the Emma/Snow relationship never worked for me after S1. Snow loved her friend Emma as family, but seemed more interested in Emma as the Saviour once she realized that her fantasy mother/daughter relationship would never happen the way she'd imagined. That she'd had the chance to have that relationship and slammed the door on it years earlier only makes it worse.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Henry has definitely always seen Emma as the Saviour more than anything else.

This made a whole lot of sense in S1, but it should have grown into something more. Especially after the Missing Year.

[Shanna Marie]

One big difference between the season 3 and season 6 finales was emotional resonance. In season 3, they let the big emotional moments breathe. When they watched Snow's execution, we got to see the pain on Emma's face, Hook comforting her, Ruby's grief, David's shock. Then we got the follow-up scene with Hook trying to counsel Emma against sliding into darkness. We were pretty sure that they weren't going to retroactively kill Snow (then, at least -- lately, I wouldn't be so sure), but they still let her loss sink in for us and for the characters, made us feel the way we'd feel if she really died.

But we got more time to feel Snow's loss then than we got to feel Emma's loss in season 6. Since we knew Emma was leaving the show, they could have really milked that. But we didn't even get to see anyone's reaction to her death. Hook's still wearing his wedding clothes and he's watched his wife get run through with a sword, and he doesn't even get a split second to react or grieve. I think that's one of the things that bugs me about Henry getting the TLK. It meant that he was the only one who got to react at all, and after he was the one spurring her to do her Savior duty. Henry barged in ahead of her husband. It was all so anticlimactic and perfunctory -- 20 seconds of fight, a second or two of glowing, then a kiss, and then all's well. No emotion, no tension, no suspense, more like "let's get this over with."

[Kktjones]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

"let's get this over with."

That's certainly what I was saying ;). 

[Camera One]

The Showdown on Main Street is just so overdone.  It was already lame in the 3A finale with the "freezing".  How many times can they replay the same trick?  Do we have a count of how many times they've confronted a villain at the exact same spot? 

This time, we got the everyone-frozen an episode early in "The Song In Your Heart".  

The Gideon encounter on Main Street was the SECOND one we've seen this season, and that's not including the replay ad nauseum of Emma's death dream.  

[andromeda331]

I agree with the comments regarding the 3B finale. It was great seeing Emma and Hook together but it was also fun! A fun adventure with Emma and Hook together Emma got to see her parents fall in love and as who they were Snow White and Prince Charming. It was so fun to see Emma's reactions to everything to Rumple, to her parents, to "old" Hook and the royal ball. We got to see Snow White and Charming acting like themselves and it was fun watching Snow save Charming's life even though she had already used the dust and Charming, Hook and Red rescuing Emma. Charming and Hook's talk around the fire. Watching Regina murder Snow White was still shocking and seeing the reaction afterwards of Emma, Charming and Red. Hook trying to reassure Emma. Hook showing how far he'd come by punching his old self. I loved how jealous Hook was about Emma going to hit on "old" Hook and how confident she was the whole scene with Emma trying to get Hook drunk. How confused Smee was by the whole thing. I loved Rumple drinking the forgetting potion and then wondering what he was doing. It was two hours of fun and adventure. This was why I loved Once. The romance Snow and Charming, Emma and Hook and before they went weird Rumple and Belle. But also the fun and adventure of different lands, different characters and seeing the friendships. Also, the family relationships. Watching Emma and Snow building their friendship in season one, Snow and Red's friendship, Emma and Henry also building theirs in season one, Henry and Charming in season two, Emma and Snow in 2A in the Enchanted Kingdom it was fun to see Emma seeing her mother in a completely different light, Regina trying to be better in 2A with Henry, even oddly Charming and Regina kind of co-parenting Henry and in the episode with Daniel. I loved Emma's reactions to things.  A&E had so many great characters, stories and so much potential and they never realized any of it.

There really hasn't been any fun since. We certainly never saw Bandit Snow again or this Charming or Emma being Emma. 4B finale could have been a lot of fun but none of it really made any sense. That was really the "story" Rumple would dream of? Or Regina? It really didn't seem like it would be what they wanted for their story. 5B finale was just stupid with Henry doing stupid stuff and not getting into trouble, another Regina and Emma road trip, and that scene at the fountain? Really? 6B finale again the curse made zero sense is this really what that Black Fairy would want? To be mayor of Storybrook? Why? Why would she leave Henry still knowing the truth or trust Rumple? Why was everyone standing around while Emma and Gideon fought? It made no sense.  

[CCTC]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

There really hasn't been any fun since.

That is one of the reasons that I enjoyed the musical episode.  The characters had some live to them and were fun.  As pointless as the beanstalk adventure was in the finale, that is one of the reasons why I enjoyed it.   There was some sense of adventure to it.

I recently fell into a youtube rabbit hole with best of scenes from the show.  I had forgotten what a great character Bandit Snow was.  They really did a disservice to the character of Snow over the years.  There was a clip of the opening of season 2 where everyone greeted each other right after the curse was lifted.  The dwarves happily bowed to Snow before she ran up and hugged them, which made the scene in the finale at Regina's door more annoying. 

The older scenes also seemed to leave a little more time for the emotional impact of certain things be felt and have more depth and resonance.    The consequences of whatever was happening seemed more real.  Although I think later scenes did not have impact because as the series went on they started undoing deaths and the consequences of curses more easily.  Also, seeing Gold get teary about wanting to be good did not mean as much, because you saw how quickly he would revert back to form as soon as he got what he wanted.

One other clip that stood out was the nanny death in season 2.  I understand why the writers wanted Regina to be a long term character and have some sort of redemption arc.   If that was their plan, why did they think it was a good idea for Regina to be 100% gleeful with no subtext of regret or remorse when she watched her Mother throw Snow's nanny out the window?  Esp. since earlier in the season, she expressed wanting to change.  I think that moment is a big reason why I had a problem with her redemption later.  I thought they did a good job with the start of her redemption in 2A with her and David co-parenting Henry and season 3A when she had to work together with the group, but her  full out evil and how easily she slid back to that evil in 2B really took away from what the writer's wanted the viewers to see as a sincere redemption.

Edited May 21, 2017 by CCTC

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I realize this is a little old, but I'm still catching up in this forum after falling WAY behind! :)

On 5/20/2017 at 7:39 PM, KAOS Agent said:

Contrast this with his reaction to Regina sacrificing herself in the S2 finale and it gets really icky. I get that it's not intended to be seen this way, but it's a very consistent theme throughout the show.

When you take into account that Henry is A&E's self-insert character, it makes perfect sense.  

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not sure where I got started on this mental rabbit trail, probably thinking about other shows from the discussion in the Other Fairy Tales thread, but it struck me how most of the villains on this show have been solo acts. The whole team of heroes has been up against basically one person, which explains all those static finales with one person fighting the villain while everyone else is frozen. It also probably has a lot to do with why the villains tend to be so overpowered. One person without minions or henchmen would be easy for a team of people to defeat, especially when that team includes people with magic powers, so the minionless villain has to have even more powers to be a viable foe.

In the past, Regina had her Black Knights, but where are they in Storybrooke? Did she send all of them to kill Baby Emma, so Charming killed them all? She had Graham and Sidney as lackeys, but wouldn't she have wanted her own private army, as well? Maybe a bunch of black-suited mayoral aides or bodyguards? Wouldn't she have wanted minions on hand to protect her if the curse broke?

Cora had Hook as a (sometimes) henchman, but since we now know that people weren't frozen in the Coradome and could go live life and have adventures, why didn't she cultivate minions to back her up when she got a chance to take on her daughter? Hook had a crew that he seems to have ditched (given that Smee was in Storybrooke). I guess that came back to him losing a lot of his original crew in Neverland, so he didn't still have the people who might have wanted to help him avenge Milah's death.

We finally have minions in 3A with Pan and the Lost Boys, and see how much that adds to the story? The good guys didn't just have to keep a lookout for one person. They had an army of kids to deal with, and when they got into a fight, they all had to fight. That also gave them the opportunity to turn some of the minions. But because these writers can't help themselves, the ultimate showdown was everyone frozen on Main Street while one person took on the single (at that point) superpowered villain. Then in 3B, Zelena had her winged monkeys, which gave the good guys more to worry about and fight against without it looking silly that one person was managing to control and monitor everyone in town, and they even gave the other heroes something to fight while Regina took on Zelena.

We're back to a lone wolf in 4A, with Ingrid having nothing more than an uneasy alliance with Rumple and very little interaction with anyone other than Emma and Elsa (and later Anna). There were multiple villains in the muddled mess of 4B, but it was a group of solo acts. They didn't function like a villain and her private army. Maybe they were going for Rumple's Angels. And the ultimate villain turned out to be disembodied Darkness, with yet another final stand on Main Street with everyone standing around.

5A didn't have a really focused villain. I guess there was Arthur, but he wasn't really sending the Knights of the Round Table against our heroes. Otherwise, it was Nimue and her gaggle of ex-Dark Ones. In 5B, are we really to believe that Hades ruled the Underworld without minions (other than Cora)? I think the Untold Stories people were supposed to be like henchmen and minions for Hyde, but that went by the wayside fast. The Evil Queen didn't even try to rebuild her Black Knights or get any kind of evil allies on her side, other than forcing the Count of Monte Cristo to attack. The Black Fairy had Gideon as an unwilling henchman, but she didn't try to bring over her army of brainwashed child slaves. Her quarrel seemed to be entirely with Emma, with everyone else unaffected until the curse hit, and yet again we got the Main Street one-on-one showdown.

I imagine costs play into it, as minions and henchmen require more actors, but most of the minions could be non-speaking roles. You can't really have a group fight without minions, though. It's hard to have good action sequences when there's only one bad guy. It also looks odd for someone to try to take over a town or the world if they haven't managed to at least secure a few henchmen and minions. Even with superpowers, it's hard to imagine one person being able to totally keep a whole society under control without enforcers and spies.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

There were multiple villains in the muddled mess of 4B, but it was a group of solo acts. They didn't function like a villain and her private army. Maybe they were going for Rumple's Angels. And the ultimate villain turned out to be disembodied Darkness, with yet another final stand on Main Street with everyone standing around.

The Queens of Darkness were a bright idea. It took advantage of the show's mashup element, created some fun interactions, and made the villain side more dynamic. However, the problem was that the writers absolutely failed at bringing the "Rumple's Angels" fantasy to life. They got sidetracked with Zelena, the Author, and the eggnapping. The QoD rarely acted as a group, and we never saw what brought them together after their little soiree with the Chernobog. They never seemed to trust each other, Maleficent couldn't care less about the other two, and none of them wanted to give Rumple the time of day. Why exactly were they a team? Maybe in a cartoon, their common bitterness toward heroes could unite them, but this is a prime-time drama.

[Camera One]

The Queens of Darkness would have been more palatable if it were a trio of more minor villains.  Cruella was a good pick, but it was a crime to waste Maleficent (who basically changed sides for reasons and had zero lingering resentment towards Regina and Rumple).  Ursula was simply a plant to trick us into thinking that all three villainesses would be redeemed, to create shock for the Cruella episode which got accolades.  They didn't even have Ursula and King Triton come back to help, so they couldn't care less about her "redemption".  As mentioned above, the Queens of Darkness would have been enough, but nope, Zelena, Isaac and Lily were thrown in there as well.  

After 4B with The Author/Apprentice stuff, you'd think the Writers would have hashed out The Sorcerer/Merlin's role in the whole Author business.  But Merlin never said a thing about it in 5A.  Likewise, the Dark Ones/Nimue backstory from 5A was thrown out the window when The Black Fairy "practically invented darkness" or whatever she said.  It's like The Writers went into each Summer Brainstorming camp with their mind wiped.  For "sci-fi geeks", how could they be so disinterested in worldbuilding?  It's like they're animatrons.  I guess birds of the same feather flock together.

[Shanna Marie]

The problem with the Queens of Darkness was that I got the sense there was never much thought or plan put into it. It came across like them realizing that the search for the Author didn't have enough substance to it to sustain an arc, and it meant there was no onscreen villain. So, since that was all about the different fates of heroes and villains, they needed a villain, and since Rumple's never allowed to be completely defeated, they needed an additional villain. Instead of really exploring the concept and developing a strong villain for that, they did "kitchen sink" writing and randomly threw together three. I suspect they had no real plan there ahead of time, just a "wouldn't it be cool" and possibly even just grabbing three names at random from known Disney villains.

I remembered how I started thinking along these lines -- I was watching the beginning of On Stranger Tides, the big chase scene through the streets of London, and thinking it was a pity that Hook never got to do that kind of piratey swashbuckling stuff. And then it occurred to me that it would have been difficult to do for most of their plots because it required soldiers for him to be escaping from, and most of their villains have acted more or less alone. Ditto with a bar fight. It's hard to do that when you have a single enemy. Meanwhile, I've been watching a number of documentaries on the rise of dictators (research for a project), and it's struck me that no dictator can get into power or sustain power alone. It requires henchmen and minions and a critical mass of people willing to go along with it, to inform and enforce. It's hard to imagine that any one person, even with magical powers, would be able to take control of an entire society without any allies at all outside a scenario like the curse that erased identity and forced people to comply or Arthur's sand that brainwashed everyone. Was there no one in town of the sort to side with the strongest-seeming person in hopes of being on the winning side and trying to join Team Villain? No one pissed enough at Regina to join a villain who opposed Regina?