A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

 

Belle had no clue that Rumple was lying about knowing Anna and Elsa.  There was as far as I'm concerned no resolution for that.

The cast was full of idiots for not raising any suspicions about Rumple, save for Hook. They knew Rumple had Elsa trapped in a urn and Anna's necklace, yet they fully accepted his excuse about not being able to keep track of all his possessions. When he tried so hard to confirm it with the dagger, it was obvious he was trying too hard to prove he was telling the truth. I don't understand why Hook knew he was lying yet said nothing to Emma.

 

Emma may not know how untruthworthy Rumple truly is, but Regina sure does. For her to let Henry work for him was stupid and out of character. She's not Parent of the Year, but she's always been protective of him. She knows full well how dangerous Rumple and his shop is. Then you have Emma, who didn't give a crap what Henry had been doing all of 4A and ate every excuse Hook fed her. ("He's turned over a new leaf", "The crocodile has changed his ways") Hook kept mysteriously disappearing, yet Emma just went along with it. Even when he violently shook her arm and glared like something was wrong, she didn't do squat until she heard from Anna about something Rumple did 30 years ago. Um, okay.

 

I didn't buy Rumple's "leverage" at the end of The Apprentice, either. Why would Emma believe Hook would be sucking people into a hat on his own accord, even with a tape? What purpose would he have in doing that? Wouldn't she believe Hook saying that Rumple was involved after the whole hand thing? Emma would be mad about Hook putting himself in danger (though, according to 4x11 she wasn't), but she'd still forgive him. Rumple gave a death threat to Hook if he exposed the marriage lie, but he would have to kill so many people along with him. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

Hook kept mysteriously disappearing, yet Emma just went along with it. Even when he violently shook her arm and glared like something was wrong, she didn't do squat until she heard from Anna about something Rumple did 30 years ago.

 

Despite what we see on screen, they aren't attached at the hip. The big mysterious Hook disappearance occurred while Emma was trying to remove her magic, so there's nothing to remark on there since he showed up at the manor before her family. That Hook wasn't on Main Street after the Shattered Sight spell broke is pretty easily explainable as Hook was still attached at the docks. If Emma spent five minutes hugging her parents and son and making sure they were okay before going off to find Hook, I don't really have a problem with that (that he wasn't on the street was just stupid anyway, and to me, is a writing problem not an Emma issue). 

 

I've come around on the Hook acting strange thing too. Yes, Emma absolutely should have followed him and tried to figure out what was going on, but she'd already asked him if something was wrong and he denied it. As far as she knew, the danger was gone along with Ingrid.  However, Elsa & Anna wanted to get home immediately because their kingdom was in danger from Hans and his brothers. Never mind that this didn't work with the timeline they'd had since Hans & Co would still be on their way to Arendelle from the Enchanted Forest, but whatever. So I can see that Emma figures she'll take an hour to get Elsa, Anna & Kristoff home to save their kingdom and then go work out what the hell is up with Hook. 

 

As for Emma/Henry interactions in 4A, I saw Emma as mostly giving Henry time to spend with Regina since they'd just spent a year apart. A&E claimed that Henry had moved back into Regina's house, so as far as Emma was concerned, Regina was in charge of making sure Henry was okay. Did Emma even know Henry was working at Rumpel's shop? Did Hook? Because if nothing else, I'd think that Hook would have said something about it. Emma seemed to believe that Rumpel truly was trying to be better. She thought that since he'd married Belle and sacrificed himself that he truly was changing. I think too that Emma has never really seen how evil Rumpel can be. People like Hook & Regina know better, but Emma has never really seen him at his worst and I think she would be thinking more about how spending a little time with his grandfather might help Henry deal with Neal's death. It's stupid and unrealistic, but it's this show, so Rumpel gets a pass for everything because he's changed.

[Camera One]

I found it very difficult to choose too, despite having an overall positive impression of 4A, mainly due to Frozen and in particular Emma/Elsa, which I thought was without a doubt, the best thing about 4A.

 

The problem is every episode was "tainted" by one of the three clunkers... Regina/Robin/Find the Author, Anna forced into backstories (I loved her with Kristoff and Elsa, but just hated those Charming and Belle flashbacks), and Rumple/Hat.  

 

"A Tale of Two Sisters" had a great flashback, but lame current-day chase-around-the-rosie (I would put "Shattered Sight" in the same category).  "White Out" was awesome for the current-day storyline, but the Charming flashback was so bad, I would consider it one of the worst flashbacks ever for this show.  "The Apprentice" had the fun Emma/Hook goes on a date stuff, and the rest was alright but uninspired.  "Breaking Glass", "Family Business" and "Heroes and Villains" were bad all-round.  Which left me personally with:

- "Rocky Road"

- "The Snow Queen"

- "Fall"

 

All three of those had flashbacks I enjoyed overall.  The current-day stuff had different weaknesses.  "Fall" had that idiotic Regina-knows-best/reversal of the diner moment.  "The Snow Queen" left a disappointing aftertaste due to making me hope that they would go into Emma/Snow but totally not following through.

 

 "Rocky Road" had the annoying Regina/Robin/Henry stuff and the dumb let's-spy-on-the-Snow-Queen-she-surely-won't-notice escapade, but overall, I think it still had the most good moments.  The flashback was good, I liked Emma's frustrations with herself and her moment with Charming (even though Will was a total waste of time).  I also liked Snow having a bit of screentime on the side.  So that was the episode I went for in the end.  

Edited February 14, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Despite what we see on screen, they aren't attached at the hip.

Well of course not! But Hook has always been clingy, and suddenly he had excuses for having to stay or go places while key moments were happening. It was out of character for Hook, and Emma should have realized that. Just a couple days ago he was telling Emma off for avoid him, now he's "I'm going to go do stuff with Rumple because he's so changed!"? No, I don't give the show a pass on that.

 

 

A&E claimed that Henry had moved back into Regina's house, so as far as Emma was concerned, Regina was in charge of making sure Henry was okay.

Emma letting Regina being in charge of Henry's safety? Well apparently she had the idiot ball then. If she didn't know what Henry was doing, and she thought the Dark One was okay because he got married, she's a bad parent. You don't let your child hang out with Ms. Hitler, who you just found out was plotting to kill someone by use of a captive, and who you also know is depressed and mentally unstable. You would, at the very least, keep tabs on what they're doing.

 

She knows very well what Regina can do, and Regina knows very well what Rumple can do. This was a major parenting failure in order to fit the plot.

 

 

So I can see that Emma figures she'll take an hour to get Elsa, Anna & Kristoff home to save their kingdom and then go work out what the hell is up with Hook.

This was on a top of a lot of shady behavior, though. She had been totally ignoring all the red flags.

Edited February 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Emma letting Regina being in charge of Henry's safety? Well apparently she had the idiot ball then. If she didn't know what Henry was doing, and she thought the Dark One was okay because he got married, she's a bad parent. You don't let your child hang out with Ms. Hitler, who you just found out was plotting to kill someone by use of a captive, and who you also know is depressed and mentally unstable. You would, at the very least, keep tabs on what they're doing.

 

LOL.  It really is quite ridiculous.  Why would they have Regina admitting to Emma that she was considering killing Marion when Emma had zero reaction to it.  As usual, it makes the good guys seem idiotic.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

LOL.  It really is quite ridiculous.  Why would they have Regina admitting to Emma that she was considering killing Marion when Emma had zero reaction to it.  As usual, it makes the good guys seem idiotic.

Then the verbal abuse... no reaction. She doesn't even care about how the Love Triangle of Doom is affecting her son. She was even fine with the Author scheme, which goes against everything she's ever stood for. If this isn't character assassination, I don't know what is. Of course, in the same show Snow White thought adultery was totes okay, so whatever.

 

I'm almost done with my rewatch. Some of the season has been decent, but there's been some major facepalm moments. Mostly about characters being idiots. Will punching a wall, forgetting where he dug something, not seeing the library's Open sign, not being able to lockpick. Basically everything Truest Stupid has done. Belle's tearful apology for even thinking of doubting Rumple. It's painful. Frozen really saved the day.

Edited February 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

If she didn't know what Henry was doing, and she thought the Dark One was okay because he got married, she's a bad parent. You don't let your child hang out with Ms. Hitler, who you just found out was plotting to kill someone by use of a captive, and who you also know is depressed and mentally unstable.

 

 I don't justify any of it, but Regina did give Henry true love's kiss, so regardless of what Regina was doing to others, Emma knows that Regina would not deliberately harm Henry. Plus, as stupid as it sounds, Henry does ground Regina and while he shouldn't ever parent his own mother, having Henry around might help Regina with her feelings of loneliness and any crazy notions she might have due to the loss of her Soul Mate. It's stupid, but I've given up on any of the Charmings having a realistic reaction to anything Regina does and just go with the idea that Emma believes Regina will work in Henry's best interests.

 

As for Rumpel, Emma had an entire conversation with him wherein she basically lays out her mindset on where he falls on the redemption spectrum. He'd sacrificed himself for his loved ones, married Belle and deeply loved his son. She saw this all as reasons to believe that he wasn't a terrible man. Let's keep in mind that Emma also was privy to his true reconciliation with Neal and saw their final moments together. All of this would lead someone like Emma, who has always yearned for family, to believe that Rumpel wouldn't be a threat to his only remaining connection to his son. This conversation occurred at most two days before the events of the finale, so this gives further credence to the idea that Emma really wouldn't have a problem with Henry spending a few hours working in the shop. What would be the harm? Belle would be there, he'd be earning some spending money, learning some responsibility and maybe connecting a bit with his grandfather.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't justify any of it, but Regina did give Henry true love's kiss, so regardless of what Regina was doing to others, Emma knows that Regina would not deliberately harm Henry.

 

As for Rumpel, Emma had an entire conversation with him wherein she basically lays out her mindset on where he falls on the redemption spectrum. He'd sacrificed himself for his loved ones, married Belle and deeply loved his son. She saw this all as reasons to believe that he wasn't a terrible man.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make, if what you're saying is true, Emma has fallen a great deal from a savy, street-mart single woman to a gullible blonde desperate for friendship from her enemies. This is taking everything at face value, which is, up to 3B, what all the Charmings would do besides her. Emma, just a few days ago, saw Regina burn her mother at the stake, learned she was plotting to murder someone, learned she trapped a man in an asylum and enslaved him, and got verbally abused by her. That was all after the TLK. Even if Regina didn't intend to hurt Henry, she is still a very, very bad influence.

 

 

What would be the harm? Belle would be there, he'd be earning some spending money, learning some responsibility and maybe connecting a bit with his grandfather.

Henry is a teenaged boy. Even if Rumple was a loving grandpa, that shop is full of terrible magic Henry could get himself into. It's not my concern that she'd approve of it, but we had no implication that she even knew about it. It was Regina's fault for letting him near another mass murderer she knew very well and into a shop full of horrors. I can't imagine her thinking a twelve-year-old trying to trick or manipulate Rumple in any way would be a good idea. It was Emma's fault (or the writing) for not even attempting to monitor what Henry was doing with his psychopathic adoptive mother.

 

My point is that the stupidity was out of character for both parents in the name of plot.

Edited February 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Plot dictates all characters' actions. Regina letting Henry work in Rumpel's shop was a bad thing, but I'd say that sending him to her vault filled with hearts and dangerous things was worse. Henry & Regina believed that Rumpel had figured out how to get his happy ending. If they truly thought that villains can't get happy endings and Rumpel now has his, then it follows that they believe that he's no longer a villain. Even Hook, who knew damn well that Rumpel was evil, was shocked and appalled that Rumpel would harm his grandson's mother and that he would throw away the love he had with Belle. These are people who actively look for love and honestly don't understand that someone would toss it all away when they have it. It has nothing to do with not being savvy or street smart about him because what could Rumpel possibly want that he doesn't have? Were they supposed to make the logic leap that Rumpel's plans were marriage followed immediately by world domination? Rumpel's actions didn't even make any sense to me and I was privy to everything, so how can I judge the characters for not getting it either?

 

Meanwhile, Emma was in the cross hairs of the Snow Queen. Perhaps she'd rather Henry stick around his powerful sorcerer grandfather and his magical other mother than be iced by her crazy foster mom. What's best in this situation? Taking Henry with her when she's clearly being targeted by a crazy woman or leaving him with Regina who she knows will protect him with her life? Snow & David have a newborn to protect and no magical skills. Hook isn't saddled with a baby, but he's also vulnerable (as we saw in "Rocky Road"). Regina and Rumpel are good options to help keep Henry safe. Incidentally, she was correct in this assessment. Rumpel made a deal with Ingrid that included protecting Henry. It was everyone else who was in danger from him.

Edited February 14, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

I don't like the way Emma was writen in 4A. She is a clear example of character assessination in the name of plot and queerbaiting.

Almost nothing she did in relation to Henry, Regina and Rumple made sense. The author nonsense is the best example. Noone goes from "you have to fight for your happy ending" to "of course I would help you to find the author so he can give you your happy ending", no mather how much her life has changed now that she has a family and a boyfriend. A boyfriend that is the best example of why Regina is wrong in her assumption that villains don't get happy endings.

And lets not start with "a few days ago I saw you burn my mom, but I want to be your friend. Please, please, please be my friend. I would let you insult me as much as you want".

I'm not blaming Emma for any of this but the writers who have decided to sacrifice her for their love for Regina.

Edited February 14, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know that Emma was character assassinated though.  I mean yeah, I'll agree with everyone who says that Emma taking the abuse from Regina in 405 was just completely out there.  You know what?  If Emma had given as good as she got in 405 and then had gone back to Regina and been like you and I can have some sort of friendship, I would have been more okay because I know Emma would not be taking shit from Regina moving forward.  As it stands, that "relationship" is nowhere near balanced.

 

For the rest, I agree with KAOS Agent.  Emma left her kid with Regina who can control her magic and protect him should anything happen.  They made a point of telling us as early as 402 that Emma could not control her powers.  Yeah, she blasted Ingrid back and then saved Hook and her father from the falling ice, but she did that in a moment of extreme anger (which by the way she also lit that fire in Neverland the first time because she was pissed with Regina, right after she called her a monster).  

 

And we know had no clue about Operation TIIC because we know she found out about it at the end of the first half of the season.  But then, Rumple is also Henry's grandfather and is very powerful and could protect him if need be.  Ironically, the pawnshop was probably the safest place Henry could be.

[KingOfHearts]

Actually Henry would probably be safer if he lived in New York, but because of PLOT there was another logic error and his mother let him stay in crazy witch town. I don't buy that Regina could have protected Henry. She's failed at it so many times, and Emma saw firsthand that Regina had no chance against Ingrid. Henry was not safe with Rumple either because he planned to kidnap him, take him out of town, and let his family die.

Let's agree to disagree. I do agree that the plot dictates character actions, but I have great contempt for that. It's a matter of dumbing down characters so Henry can get crappy subplots.

Edited February 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[OnceUponAJen]

In the weekly poll, I ultimately chose "The Apprentice." I chose it not only for the Emma/Hook interactions, but also because I loved Robert and Colin's scenes together. I love the age-old enmity that they have, even though the balance of power is decidedly against Hook.

I'm hoping that perhaps that imbalance will be gone for a time in 4b, because I'd enjoy seeing both opponents use their wits against each other rather than pulling some arcane spell or magic item out of the hat. HA!

I was disappointed that the date didn't really show much of substance Onscreensville, but I did enjoy the Charmings being interested parents before and after their evening. Overall, it made me smile and entertained me. YMMV.

[YaddaYadda]

Henry was not safe with Rumple either because he planned to kidnap him, take him out of town, and let his family die.

 

Again, the only person who knew about this and he found out much later was Hook.  I'm assuming everyone knows about ALL of Rumple's plans at this point in the game.

 

I still have no idea how anyone will coexist with him.  And I know they do it with Regina, but doesn't his completely turnaround put in question Regina's redemption on some level in the eyes of these people?  Here's the most powerful wizard who had seemingly turned over a new leaf deciding that it's okay to put the Savior in a hat in order to steal her powers (and I'm assuming that she would have died once the hat had finally been used), and he stole a heart and controlled this other seemingly reformed villain in order to basically become an uncontrollable asshat and he was willing to let everyone in the town die and then kidnap his grandson and his wife and wipe their memories so that he could live happily ever after.

 

And then you have Regina who has actually managed to control some of her worst instincts (I'm not even going to think about enslaving Sydney) and showed some maturity when it came to happy ending #20,000 (because technically the dark curse was her happy ending, then it was Henry and now it's Robin).  So now she loses this brand new happy ending.  Aren't people worried she's going to just spiral out of control?  I mean Henry was worried she was going to go all evil again when Marian came back.  It didn't last very long and he encouraged adultery, but still, his first concern was that she would go back to who she was.

 

I think what drives me nuts with this show is that these characters don't even talk to each other.  It drives me absolutely bonkers and I find it completely fucked up on so many levels.  I'm not even saying they should have 30 minute conversations, but if you can have Rumple repeat three times in the same episode his line about the stars in the hat and the stars in the sky align drivel, repeated for 2 or more episodes because we are all very clearly slow to the uptake, then surely you can have a quick 20 seconds conversation regarding whatever.  Because is it really necessary to repeat the same thing over and over again when there are important things that are not being addressed?

[HoodlumSheep]

I chose "The Apprentice" for the poll. I like CS, love Rumple/Hook scenes, I liked the mysterious sorcerer plot until it seemed to morph into the sorcerer and author most likely being the same person. :( I agree with everybody who has said that there were problems with all the episodes (more than usual), though. "White Out" and "Rocky Road" were pretty good and decently balanced too (probably from all that extra Charming screen time!). These three episodes were obviously building toward something that could have been awesome. "The Apprentice" for me was the peak of that build up. Then 4x05 came along and all that build up and tension was completely lost. 4a didn't really recover after that (in my opinion). EM was the saving grace of the rest of the season.

[Camera One]

I don't like the way Emma was writen in 4A. She is a clear example of character assessination in the name of plot and queerbaiting.

Almost nothing she did in relation to Henry, Regina and Rumple made sense. 

 

Though the ironic thing was 4A is the first somewhat Emma-focused arc we've had since Season 1.  They did peripherally *try* (operative word there) explore Emma's insecurities, her dealing with having magic, her opening up to a romance, and her past of being abandoned and having false hope.  Aside from "Breaking Glass", I can't say they assassinated her character any more than usual.  Of course, she was still generally clueless, useless and reactive, but what good character isn't on this show.  At least they haven't started using her to wipe the floor like they do with Snow.

 

because we are all very clearly slow to the uptake, then surely you can have a quick 20 seconds conversation regarding whatever.  Because is it really necessary to repeat the same thing over and over again when there are important things that are not being addressed?

 

I think that was what bothered me MOST about 4A.  That-exposition/catching-people-up-on-previous-plot-points element of the show has been there all along, but the repetition in dialogue became almost unbearable this half-season.  Multiple scenes in multiple episodes had the EXACT same purpose.   What a waste of screentime and talented actors.  

[KAOS Agent]

I do find it interesting that the vast majority of votes in the 4A Favorites poll are all for episodes in the first half of the half season. It really shows that they had a decent set-up to their long term arc, but failed in a big way to capitalize on it. I was actually torn on giving "Shattered Sight" my vote because I really did like the Emma/Ingrid flashbacks and that in the end, they had Ingrid acknowledging all of her wrongs and accepting responsibility to fix it even at the cost of her own life. Unfortunately, the utter stupidity of what was supposed to be the most horrible spell ever and the massive let down of how they'd built it up to be made me decide against it. Also, I hated Anna and her letter of love saving the day. Mary Sue Anna the awesomest awesome to ever awesome grates big time.

[KingOfHearts]

It's not that I didn't like the latter half at all, but the middle dragged, dragged, dragged. It fell off a cliff in 4x05, stayed down in the pit from 4x06-4x08, then didn't pick up to speed again until 4x09. By then the boat had already sailed on Frozen interest, specifically with finding Anna and learning more about Ingrid's backstory. The Shattered Sight spell and the winter finale were both very underwhelming for being climaxes, though I wouldn't say they were bad episodes themselves.

 

Basically all the momentum dropped, as did the intrigue. The repetition and predictable outcomes didn't help either. No one cared about Rumple monologuing for the fiftieth time, nor the Outlaw Queen angst or the Author hunt. The Emma plot went nowhere, and the Rumpbelle fallout happened so quickly that there was very little suspense residing there. The Frozen conclusion was satisfying, but occurred way too late in the game.

Edited February 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

They extended the whole Frozen arc though.  Wasn't Georgina Haig supposed to be on the show for only 9 episodes?  I mean I really liked Elsa and I enjoyed Kristoff  and the snark and the actor was pretty good but were the scenes with Sven necessary?  It goes back to the stuff the writers choose to put in these scenes.  

 

Frozen dragged and it was really unnecessary that it did at the end of the day because Super!Anna wasn't even part of the one thing she should have been part of which was the Rumple/Belle arc.  Elsa and Emma should have resolved the Ingrid issue and Anna should have been part of the other arc because that was her actual build up.

[Camera One]

And they were standing next to each other the day after the spell of Shattered Sight like nothing had happened.  So I'm assuming Henry didn't tell his mother (Emma) that Hook came to get him during that little crisis.  If he had, would Emma have gone directly to Hook to question him?  Would she have realized that no, he wasn't at the docks...he told her via heart control that he hurt himself during the curse and was heading to get himself checked out, Hook who almost drowned a few weeks before that and set foot in the hospital only because a baby was being born.

 

 

The lack of communication is maddening.  We don't even know if Emma found out anything from Hook about everything Rumple did, between that heart-in-the-hallway scene, and Emma talking to Regina at the bar.  Not to mention Ingrid saying nothing about Rumple, even though she "loved" Elsa and Emma like they were her sisters.  And Belle knew that Rumple knew Anna and lied about it.  There were a million and one places where people could have gotten suspicious about Rumple, but it couldn't happen until the very, very, very, very last moment, by Anna as she was walking through the door expressing the giant revelation that Rumple "was a lying liar who lies" or whatever idiotic thing she said.  Cue the super surprised faces.  

Edited February 15, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

It boggles my mind that we saw absolutely no reaction to Emma or Elsa getting their memories back about Ingrid. Emma didn't even care she was gone. We didn't get any comments or remarks... not even facial expressions. Anna and Elsa were torn up about Ingrid's death, but there was nothing from Emma. All those flashbacks about her past with her in that episode and it amounted to nothing... much like the ribbons.

Edited February 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I haven't watched it in a while, but I thought Emma looked really broken up when Ingrid died after she got the memories back?  

 

I was wary and a bit creeped out about those memories since they weren't Emma and Elsa's complete memories.  A few moments before, when she was still evil, Ingrid said, "That's exactly what's in these crystals.  These are the good memories and nothing else."   But then later, once she's "good", she said, "You deserve your memories."  Yes, they deserve their memories, but not manipulated memories.

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm in the middle of my 4A re-watch and I realize more than ever how much Regina ruins the show for me. I just can't with her anymore.

The premise of finding The Author could've been really good, but the reason they are doing it makes zero sense. The book doesn't dictate people's stories, it records them. I don't understand why they are changing this. It's so stupid.

 

I really like the Snow Queen stuff and Ingrid's quiet creepiness. I don't mind that every villain has a sob backstory, but I still think Regina's is the weakest (in regards to blaming Snow instead of Cora) and unfortunately, she's the "villain" we are stuck with season after season. That's why of the two, I prefer Rumple over Regina any day.

 

And why does Emma think that her savior job is to get everyone a happy ending? I thought it was to break the first curse, which she did.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Writing Wrongs

[Camera One]

I'm in the middle of my 4A re-watch and I realize more than ever how much Regina ruins the show for me. I just can't with her anymore.

The premise of finding The Author could've been really good, but the reason they are doing it makes zero sense. The book doesn't dictate people's stories, it records them. I don't understand why they are changing this. It's so stupid.

 

Me too.  The Author/Regina/Robin stuff really stood out like a sore thumb.  The sad thing is I don't think Regina is necessarily a problem... it's the overuse of her, the excusing of her actions and the blatant use of other characters to prop her up which makes her unenjoyable to watch.  They could have shown her actively working for her redemption in her C Plots in 4A.  They could have shown her trying different ways to bring Marion back to life, they could have shown her adjusting to not being mayor, they could have NOT iced Marion and dealt with the fall-out.  They got Sidney back for two episodes... surely, he could have been used in better ways.  They could have Regina trying to help Henry through the loss of his father, something she also had to deal with (though she killed him, which is a tad different).  All of that could at the very least have been less repetitive than what we got.

 

The Author stuff, if they HAD to do it, required a discovery which would actually suggest there was a way for the Author to write certain futures.  They can't just have Regina think of that idea out of the blue, when the Book has ONLY ever been a record of what happened. There has to be a reason for Regina (and everyone else) to think that this could work.  Having said that, there was no reason why the Author plot needed to be begun in 4A.  Heck, have Rumple and Henry independently discover the room of empty books in "Heroes and Villains" to kickstart the new goal for 4B.  

[kpw801]

I'm in the middle of my 4A re-watch and I realize more than ever how much Regina ruins the show for me. I just can't with her anymore.

The premise of finding The Author could've been really good, but the reason they are doing it makes zero sense. The book doesn't dictate people's stories, it records them. I don't understand why they are changing this. It's so stupid.

 

I really like the Snow Queen stuff and Ingrid's quiet creepiness. I don't mind that every villain has a sob backstory, but I still think Regina's is the weakest (in regards to blaming Snow instead of Cora) and unfortunately, she's the "villain" we are stuck with season after season. That's why of the two, I prefer Rumple over Regina any day.

 

And why does Emma think that her savior job is to get everyone a happy ending? I thought it was to break the first curse, which she did.

Well, part of the curse was that no one would have a happy ending except for Regina.  Henry also tells Emma she was the one who would "bring back the happy endings."

[KingOfHearts]

 

The sad thing is I don't think Regina is necessarily a problem... it's the overuse of her, the excusing of her actions and the blatant use of other characters to prop her up which makes her unenjoyable to watch.

I enjoy Regina, but her plots this arc were craptastically 2B-worthy. Her scenes with Henry did nothing for them, her hunt for the Author was ludicrous at best, Outlaw Queen was painful to watch and none of us are ever going to forget the infamous crypt sex. The camera spent excessive time articulating every angle of her tears. It was boring and sucked up so many scenes into an airless void.

 

Regina is the most entertaining when she's a snarky witch with an attitude problem. Unfortunately, she wasn't allowed to be that. I don't understand why she can't just be grey. Everyone seems to be fine with it except for Henry, but no. You're either a hero or a villain. Gosh this show is annoying.

Edited February 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Regina is the most entertaining when she's a snarky witch with an attitude problem. Unfortunately, she wasn't allowed to be that. I think if she stopped caring about what people thought so much and getting her happy circumstances in order, she could still be grey but also be a part of Team Hero.

Part of that is because they wanted to expand her role.  Yes, she's had some really entertaining moments when she's the snarky witch with an attitude problem.  However, characters like that need to either be put in their place by the other characters regularly, or be used extremely sparingly.  If they're not, they cease being fun and entertaining.

 

Since Regina's place is a magically impervious dungeon somewhere, they can't do that--and allowing the other characters to be snarky back would make it too obvious that they shouldn't like her, and bring up pesky questions like "Why isn't she in the magically impervious dungeon?  Why are these people trying to be her friend, when they should be horrified she's near them and their family?"

 

Using her sparingly . . . well, they're not interested in that, either.

 

And you're right.  What they've done with her--by showing us her every little papercut and her extreme sadness over it--is boring. And maddening.

 

(Huh.  Something can be boring and anger-making at the same time.  That's a hard combo.)

Edited February 15, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

Since Regina's place is a magically impervious dungeon somewhere, they can't do that--and allowing the other characters to be snarky back would make it too obvious that they shouldn't like her, and bring up pesky questions like "Why isn't she in the magically impervious dungeon?  Why are these people trying to be her friend, when they should be horrified she's near them and their family?"

I believe this has to do with the overall morality of this show. You could redeem Regina to the point where she doesn't kill people without good, defensive reasons, and to where her sarcasm doesn't get to the verbal abuse levels of 4x05. She can be the one who calls for drastic measures to be taken, like she did with the Lost Boy's heart or choosing not to find Anna in 4x09. I don't think snarking back would be strictly antagonism, per se. I like the idea of Emma and Regina being allies who like to bicker but care about each other underneath. 

 

I really don't like how darker characters are treated on this show.

Edited February 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

Ok, finished 4A. Since they specifically mentioned that the gauntlet came from Camelot does that mean The Sorcerer is Merlin?

 

How is Ursula living in our world? Was she brought over in one of the curses and somehow left Storybrooke?

 

Emma (to Regina): Everyone deserves a happy ending.

Me: Except all the people Regina murdered, I guess.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Ursula was banished to the Land without Magic by someone who had enough power to do it.  She looked miserable in her job.  You don't go from being magical in the Enchanted Forest, be a Goddess to feeding the fish in an aquarium.  I think someone saddled her with that life.  I think it was her punishment for something she did or for turning into a villain.

Edited February 16, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Looking back at the list of 4A episodes, I was surprised by how few of them I remember in detail. I remember scenes, but can't keep straight which came from which episodes.

 

I actually think there wasn't enough Frozen content because they more or less used that for promo purposes and a little set dressing, shoving it mostly aside to dive into their other stories. The first few episodes were Elsa and Anna-heavy, but then it was almost like they got bored and then were distracted by the next shiny thing, or else playing in the Frozen sandbox wasn't as much fun as they thought it would be and those mean old people at Disney wouldn't let them do what they really wanted. I didn't have a huge problem with Anna being the one to solve the Ingrid problem because that made sense -- it needed to be some non-magical person being able to love and accept her. The problem, as usual, was the setup and payoff -- no setup for the payoff we got, no payoff for the setup. It wouldn't have been so bad if we hadn't already had the "Anna saves David" episode. They could have met and solved a problem together rather than her teaching him to use a sword in one night and being the one to give him courage. There was no point to her meeting Belle. And then it would have really helped if they'd bothered showing how she found Ingrid's lair and if Emma and Elsa had been allowed to contribute toward the solution -- if they'd done something like draw power off Ingrid so Anna could safely talk to her, and if maybe the three of them together had a plan rather than Anna just running in while Emma and Elsa were helpless.

 

Instead, we got a repeat of 3B, with everyone else helpless while one character out of the blue manages to solve the problem with no setup and without using anything that was set up, so that it's annoying even if that character is the logical one to deal with that villain. It made sense for Regina to be the one to square off against Zelena. But it was the way she was allowed to do it and the fact that all other characters were sidelined and nothing they'd done up to that point mattered at all.

 

I guess they just can't write group scenes. Are they overwhelmed with the idea of multiple characters doing things at the same time, and that's why every big climactic scene seems to involve everyone being frozen or helpless while one character does something?

[KingOfHearts]

I won't do a full review, but here are a couple things I noticed upon binge-watching all of 4A over the course of 3-4 days.

 

It felt like watching the same episode over and over and over, especially after 4x04. The themes, characters and storylines were so repetitive that it all came out like a blur. There was nothing stark or outstanding until the winter finale. Frozen was great, but the plot felt like it was on pause until 4x09 when Anna returned. The character reactions in the past with Charming and Belle felt pointless. This arc could have done better with 7 episodes instead of a full 12. 

 

There were some decent scenes I liked, but those feelings were often interrupted with sudden major facepalm moments. (Crypt sex, Henry's breakup basket, pretty much all of 4x05, etc.) Surprisingly, the finale was more interesting upon rewatch. It was like we were going back to the usual OUAT away from all the Frozen stuff. Belle ditching Rumple was the only real shocking event in the whole arc. It was exciting to get back to the darker tones.

Edited February 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

Instead, we got a repeat of 3B, with everyone else helpless while one character out of the blue manages to solve the problem with no setup and without using anything that was set up, so that it's annoying even if that character is the logical one to deal with that villain.

Not only did they repeat 3B, but they repeated it AGAIN right away with Belle and the dumb gauntlet. And if you look back even farther than that, they already did this with No Regrets Regina and Rumple vs Pan, so that's FIVE times in the span of 1.5 seasons where a single person gets to take down a villains while everyone else is frozen.

[HoodlumSheep]

It's interesting how "Smash the Mirror" pretty much has the only votes for the back half. The only thing I can remember from it is the awesome "love yourself" Emma/Elsa scene (which I loved), Killy getting his heart stolen, and everyone else taking a leisurely moonlight stroll. Unless some of those events took place in a different episode.

[getOffMyLawn]

It's interesting how "Smash the Mirror" pretty much has the only votes for the back half. The only thing I can remember from it is the awesome "love yourself" Emma/Elsa scene (which I loved), Killy getting his heart stolen

That's why I voted for it. That and Emma's scenes with Rumpel (which were great) and her scenes with the Snow Queen. All of that plus that brat Henry getting his stupid little butt blasted into the ground. LOL, that will never not be funny!  I really don't like that kid. I hear nails on chalkboard whenever he opens his mouth. He needs to go away.

 

(The rest of that episode -- the leisurely moonlight stroll; the Charmings being certified, self-absorbed morons; Regina and Robin and their journey into grosser depths of ick -- all of that I did not want and don't ever want to see again.)

Edited February 17, 2015 by getOffMyLawn

[YaddaYadda]

It's interesting how "Smash the Mirror" pretty much has the only votes for the back half. The only thing I can remember from it is the awesome "love yourself" Emma/Elsa scene (which I loved), Killy getting his heart stolen, and everyone else taking a leisurely moonlight stroll. Unless some of those events took place in a different episode.

It seems like most liked the show well enough prior to the drivel that was 405.

 

It did go downhill after that.  I think making it Regina heavy (I'm not gonna go into the whole crazy) killed the momentum of the first half.

[Shanna Marie]

It did go downhill after that.  I think making it Regina heavy (I'm not gonna go into the whole crazy) killed the momentum of the first half.

There really wasn't enough Frozen content after the first few episodes to please anyone who tuned in because of the Frozen aspect. It was like the writers were all "Wheee! We get to do Frozen!" then got bored with it three episodes later and moved back to their usual favorite toy. Really, you could have removed the Frozen stuff without changing the story much. Ingrid didn't have to be related to Elsa for the story to work. She just needed the tie to Emma, and she was supposedly in town long before Elsa was. The Frozen stuff also doesn't seem to have had lasting consequences. The Rumple side of the story was more important for future plot, since he's banished and wanting to get back. The Frozen/Ingrid stuff will likely be forgotten and won't change a single thing, since it wasn't allowed to intersect with the Rumple story in the present, and Belle and Anna's past acquaintance was forgotten entirely. Will we even see any change in Emma from getting back the Ingrid memories?

[Camera One]

The discussion of the Frozen arc and why it did/didn't work in the All Seasons thread got me thinking about how the writers on this show have really written themselves into a corner. This show started out mainly featuring Snow, Emma and the Evil Queen/Regina. Snow & the Queen starred in the fairybacks and Emma/Regina starred in the present. However, after the first couple of seasons, I think that Snow White's story has been played out. There is nothing to explore in her past that will inform her character. They refuse to write any actual relationship drama between her and Emma and by 3B essentially had Snow living out her happy ending having settled things with Regina and ruling her kingdom in the Enchanted Forest with her husband and a brand new baby on the way. All characters need to have a goal. What is it that they want and what are they doing to get it? That is the basis for all stories. Snow has achieved her main goals.

 

Interestingly, I think the same of Regina. I know every detail of every tear Regina has ever shed over her sad, sad life and now she's gotten everything. Regina's story could have been expanded had she too not achieved all of her goals. Unfortunately, by the end of Season 3, the writers had given her True Love's Kiss with her son, a soul mate who loves her instantly and doesn't care that she murdered his wife, access to powerful white magic and the general acceptance of the citizens she spent years terrorizing. Sure, her boyfriend is currently separated from her, but it's only a physical separation. It doesn't require her character to undergo a change in any manner. 

 

With two thirds of the main stars of the show having essentially achieved their goals, the writers are stuck with no real story to tell, but fans still clamoring for more Snow and MORE REGINA!!!!! and those fans getting angry when they write the stories of other characters whose every move has not already been documented on this show. Belle, Hook, Rumpel, David, Emma and I guess Will too all have stories that we have not seen and should be infinitely more interesting than life ruiner Snow and the misunderstood actions of the Evil Queen.

 

I agree that the main characters are close to being played out.  Much of that is the writers' own fault, since they skipped the steps and progressions of character development, and just jumped right to the end.  It is the most obvious with Regina with all her rewards at the end of 3B, but it is the case with Snow too.  In Season 4, we could still have Snow working through her residual anger at Regina, especially after returning in the Missing Year, and going back to her father's palace maybe for the first time since Regina put a price on her head.  

 

I think that more creative writers, or maybe just writers that CARE about these characters beyond their use as chess pieces, would still be able to give a "played out" character like Snow good material to work with.  I mean, if the writers had made one of the goals of a half-season to gradually work through the issues between Snow and Emma, there could have been some good stuff to be had.  But that's not going to happen when they add 3 new villains, new characters, and cameos from everyone and little dog too.

 

Not only do the writers jump right to the end, they also have that habit of pulling back (eg. Rumple marrying Belle, pulling back and he deceives her), leading to repetition which is unenjoyable.  

 

I wish the writers had made a list of all the emotional obstacles each character had to go through before the end of the series, and paced it, so that each of those could be dealt with in a satisfying and organic way.  

[LizaD]

After S1, this entire show has become about working through the Big 4's emotional obstacle, in the singular becuase the writers have slapped one label and problem on each character and called it a day. It just might not be aligned to what viewers think it is or it should be. It's not really about working towards a goal or quest here. Hence my complaint that there's zero plot on this show.

Snow's emtional obstacle is thinking that she is a hero or wants to be a hero and learning differently. Her arc is realizing that she's not always good and can screw up horribly. Yes I know it's a bunch of bull and yes technically this arc was done when she told the world that her and her momma is as evil as Woegina and her momma. But this show defines "going back to the same well." Her future arcs will involve some brand new "shocking revelation" that she screwed someone over and can't be good all the time.

Woegina's arc is overcoming the "villain" label that people have given to her, to rise above their oppression of her by using that label. Yeah yeah I know people might think this is a bunch of bull again but that's how the writers see it. They see her as a victim and others victimizing her by wrongly labeling her as a villain. Is anyone going to argue that that is not how the writers have framed it? Her future arcs till the series end will be about how some meanie wronged her, deemed her evil and she'll show them differently by being heroic instead. Her arc has never been about redemption. It's about Woegina realizing that she is good and heroic and not a villain like others mistakenly believe. This is why I think the so-called Author crap is a bit of a red-herring. It's not really about getting a happy ending and how to do so, it's about that hero and villain label. The keyword in "villains don't get happy endings" is the villain part not happy endings.

Emma's obstacle is overcoming her own dumb insecurities and realizing that she is loved and to love herself. Again you can say this too has been fulfilled multiple times over, but sure enough come S5 or however long this gravy train lasts, it's going to rear its ugly head again and will keep on doing so. This is why "Snow and Emma's issues" will never be addressed. The writers don't see it as a Snow and Emma issue. They see it as an Emma issue only.

Rump's obstacle is all about his fears of being a coward like daddy and insecurity about being unloveable. Those 2 things are what drives his drives his obsession with power but having power or trying to get it, is reinforcing his fears and insecurity. It's a weird feedback loop. That territory was covered by the end of 3A when he overcame both of those things but like everyone else he got a reset. I do think the character has more freedom than the other 3 because he also plays facilitator or mastermind and therefore drives a lot of the story without his issue taking center stage all the time. It means he always has something to do because he can be shoehorned in everywhere. The others struggle for a role when the spot light isn't on their emotional obstacle.

The 2nd string characters all fit into one of the above mold more or less. Charming and Belle are obsessed with that hero label. Not so much in the present where they have nothing to do but in all their fairybacks it always comes back to that. The shiny villain of the moment all service the above. Cora and Zelena served Woegina and Snow's arc. Pan and sort of Ingrid served Emma's and Rump's. Of the 4 villains, only Ingrid's arc truly felt like the story was about Ingrid. It was a bit more even in that sometimes I think Emma and Rump were the vehicles to tell her story.

I have no clue why this show can't be more than that like it was in S1 and why the characters can't be more. Or why there is no story to be found anywhere. The only explanation is, they suck.

[Camera One]

Hence my complaint that there's zero plot on this show.

 

I guess it depends on how "plot" is defined.  If one goes by the standard "plot = sequence of events", then there is a lot of plot on this show.  They are always running away from or fighting something.  Though really, that's more mindless action than true complex plot.  The rest of what they write could be described as plot TWIST.  Like, OMG Cruella and Ursula are together and they were Rumple's students OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG.  Each half-season's plot doesn't actually count if one looked at the bigger picture.

 

I think your hit the nail on the head with those character "obstacles".  The writers see those characters in those singular dimensions, and just write the plot around those, ad nauseum.  In "Lost", 

it was one of the bad habits. It was always "Jack fixes", "Kate runs", "Sawyer cons", "Sayid reins in his violent tendencies", etc.

[Writing Wrongs]

So I was trying to figure out the Snow Queen timeline thing. She comes to Storybrooke before Emma gets there, is running the ice cream shop when Emma comes in. So when the second curse hit, where did she go? If everyone from the first curse went back to the EF and Storybrooke was erased, what about her? Then after the second curse, she's back at the ice cream shop. Did she follow Emma and Henry to NYC to keep an eye on her "sister"?

[daxx]

Everyone in Storybrooke went back to the Enchanted Forest, not just those from the first curse. Neal and Hook came via magic bean not by curse but they still were pulled back. This never made sense to me personally they should have been left in the land without magic if Regina was just undoing the curse.

Edited February 18, 2015 by daxx

[YaddaYadda]

When it comes to magic on this show...Regina did go on about how none of them belonged there, so there's that.  Considering everything, Ingrid should have been returned to Arendelle which she might have been, she could have just made her way elsewhere afterwards and the Lost Boys should have been returned to Neverland.  Never mind that the curse never actually reached there in the first place to pull those boys back to Storybrooke.

[KingOfHearts]

The undoing of the curse brought back everyone that was born in the Enchanted Forest. (or Arendelle, which is in the same world) The Lost Boys would have been returned to where they were originally from, I believe. Even though they weren't part of the first curse, if they were living in EF during the Missing Year they would have been swept up with the second curse.

I also cry foul about the whole "born in EF" rule. Neal, Hook and the Lost Boys should have been left behind... at least Hook. It would been a nice twist if he was actually from the Land Without Magic. What an irony for Captain Swan. Even that would've been less contrived than another magic bean.

[Camera One]

The interesting questions that come up when you *really* think about this show.  Yikes.

 

So in Season 7, we can have a flashback episode to find out what the Snow Queen did in that missing year.  

Edited February 19, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I always took the reverse curse rules as everyone who was currently in Storybrooke, regardless of how they got there, would be returned to where they belonged because Storybrooke would no longer exist. The only person who wouldn't have anywhere to return to would be Henry. Even the Lost Boys would be sent to wherever they came from. For example, I think Wendy and her brothers should have been returned to London - though not Edwardian London where they really belong.

 

Despite the weirdness of Emma driving out of town as the curse overtook everyone, they did have Grumpy running through town saying they were surrounded, so I'll give them the cinematic visual of the town line and just pretend that by that point, no one other than Henry & Emma could escape it. I'm not a fan of the contrived Saviour Clause, but I don't agree with Regina's assessment that none of them belonged in that world. I think that Emma belongs in this world much more than she does the Enchanted Forest. Unlike Neal or anyone else, Emma's identity in this world is real. She may not have been born here, but for all intents and purposes this is Emma's world.

[daxx]

Just did a rewatch of 4a on the killianHook YouTube channel. It is far more palatable this way. And I finished in a few hours. :) which better fits my schedule. I didn't miss any of the flashbacks, they would be tedious on rewatch I think.

[YaddaYadda]

So, I just took a look at the latest poll and Cruella is leading the sweepstakes.  I'm a bit surprised, I thought it would be Maleficent seeing as she is already integrated in the show.

Edited February 26, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Personally, I don't really care for this show's version of Maleficent. Maybe it's the way the actress portrays her, but I never liked her even in the first season. She was just too...bland. Cruella's actress - even though she's only been on screen for like a minute - has more of a demanding presence, which is why I chose her.

[FurryFury]

I think it has to do with Cruella being a new presence that Adam and Eddie haven't ruined yet. I mean, the current Ursula is already a big disappointment after her brief yet intriguing appearance in "Ariel", and Maleficent hasn't exactly been used that well before (that whole dragon thing felt really random for me even back in the good old s1 days), plus we never got that backstory with Aurora when it was actually relevant. Plus, we know she was friends with Regina, so it's highly likely she'll be her main relationship (maybe Rumple as well), which doesn't fill most people here with enthusiasm. So I can understand why most voted for Cruella.

 

Personally, I haven't voted at all - I really don't care about these villains. Maybe I'll like some of them (I did like Ingrid, after all), but right now, I don't give a damn.

Edited February 26, 2015 by FurryFury