A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

The premise of the Author storyline is so undefined and so contradictory to what we knew about the book originally that I seriously don't see how it could be salvaged, or how it could ever have worked in the first place.  I also don't see how they can possibly unjam the meat grinder that they forced Snow and Charming into.  Neglect of characters and loss of potential was one thing.  Complete destruction of the characters I am invested in, along with storylines that I simply cannot believe in cut much deeper and this is where I'm personally at with this show right now.  I can name the point in most shows when they lose me for good, and it usually feels like this.

[RadioGirl27]

A&E write their seasons thinking about the premiere and the finale, and the rest is pure filler. Sometimes they hit the mark and give us a good episode (like Poor Unfortunate Soul this half season) but most of the time it goes from "this is not bad" to "this is crap".

[Shanna Marie]

I really feel like they're wasting Maleficent by throwing her in with all these other crazy stories and then finding a bizarre way to tie her to Snow and Charming instead of dealing with her actual story. We still don't know what her beef with Briar Rose was that led to her cursing Aurora. She's now in the same town with Aurora and has made no effort to look her up (not in the "hey, let's do coffee and catch up" way, but in noting the status of someone associated with an enemy), or does she not care anymore because the baby stealing trumped that? And meanwhile, Aurora and presumably Philip haven't had a chance to react to Maleficent being back in town.

 

It seems like in straining to stretch this whole silly heroes and villains and heroes are just as bad as villains, they just wear different football jerseys and team colors thing they've actually missed some other, more reasonable stories that need to be told. I'd have preferred that they find some other random villain to be part of the lame trio and let Maleficent stand alone so they could really work with all the facets of her history.

[Mathius]

A&E write their seasons thinking about the premiere and the finale, and the rest is pure filler.

This is somewhat exaggerated, but still pretty close to the mark, at least when it comes to the half-seasons (they've said they didn't know exactly how S1 or S2 would end at first): A&E always think of the beginning and end, and sometimes the middle or important details therein. The rest just comes up as it's written, and it sadly usually fails to connect in a substantial way.

[Zuleikha]

A&E always think of the beginning and end, and sometimes the middle or important details therein.

That's not a horrible way to write as long as you don't do it and call it a day. But the middle part matters and they don't seem to care about making the connections important. It does feel very late-season Lost to me, where it felt like the writers were instructed to write for twists and moments with no one caring whether the basic story makes sense. 

 

The premise of the Author storyline is so undefined and so contradictory to what we knew about the book originally that I seriously don't see how it could be salvaged, or how it could ever have worked in the first place.

I've written about this a lot, so I'll try not to be repetitive, but the fundamental concept that in the Enchanted Forest world people believe heroes get happy endings and villains don't has been established and brought up every season. The only thing we know about the book is that its a magical item that appears when people need hope. Prior to s4, we didn't know who created the book, what it draws on for its magic power, how its maintained, whether its unique, or even what its real connection to Storybrooke and the Dark Curse is. The Author plotline could have been and should have been used to get into these meaty worldbuilding questions while allowing the characters to struggle with their own questions about redemption.

 

But it wasn't. So while I think it could have worked in the first place, I agree that I have a hard time seeing it be salvaged. All of its potential has been squandered, and I agree with whoever made the observation that it's being squandered in a way that is pissing off every faction of hardcore fanbase (as a Regina fan, I'm particularly irritated that I feel like I got bait-and-switched on getting development about Regina's internal state).

[Camera One]

I really feel like they're wasting Maleficent by throwing her in with all these other crazy stories and then finding a bizarre way to tie her to Snow and Charming instead of dealing with her actual story. We still don't know what her beef with Briar Rose was that led to her cursing Aurora. She's now in the same town with Aurora and has made no effort to look her up (not in the "hey, let's do coffee and catch up" way, but in noting the status of someone associated with an enemy), or does she not care anymore because the baby stealing trumped that? And meanwhile, Aurora and presumably Philip haven't had a chance to react to Maleficent being back in town.

 

When I first heard they were doing 3 queens of darkness, I was so disappointed they were going to waste Maleficent.  And that has pretty much occurred.  There's no reason why they couldn't have done a variation of Elsa/Emma in 4B, except with Briar Rose/Snow.  As I've said before, there are many parallels between the two "older" women... getting to know an adult daughter whose childhood they missed, having a villain destroy their child's life to get revenge on them.  Snow and Aurora also have parallels, in having a baby in an uncertain dangerous world, with unusual pregnancies (half a heart and Monkey-fied), and juggling motherhood with their responsibilities to their subjects.  

 

Snow in particular but also Charming have tons of issues that have been left unaddressed.  They could have focused 4B entirely on Snow just dealing with the fallout of realizing that she hadn't spent enough time with Emma while she has been preoccupied with the baby, and trying desperately to make up for everything that had happened in 3A, 3B and 4A, but not doing it right.  Maybe the situation with Briar Rose makes Snow confront her denial and her cheery "I'm past it" attitude about Regina's Curse.  Meanwhile, they work against the threat of Maleficent, who should be so powerful even Rumple is scared.

 

Instead, the writers have created a completely new contrived problem/issues between Snow/Charming and Emma.  To me, it's a total distractor, like throwing in an earthquake to avoid dealing with day-to-day problems.  The dumb secret was merely to shift the gears and set up the chesspiece of Emma exactly where they want her in the second half of 4B, and to let loose a new piece, the Rogue Author, who will provide further distractions before the big climax.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

I feel like if they wanted to do the author plot, they shouldn't have done 3 QoD. They could have stuck with the same-ish format as 4a. Focus on the big bad of the season (in this case I'd choose Mal), and have the larger threat looming in the background (the author plot). Except with a better finale to tie or set things up.

I'm still 2 eps behind, but it sounds like Ursula's story was wrapped up decent enough, but I wish we could have seen more of her than just standing around with Cruella and not doing much.

Cruella is fun, but I don't think she could have carried a whole half season by herself.

[Camera One]

Cruella is fun, but I don't think she could have carried a whole half season by herself.

 

That would be tough, and they would be need to set it up.  I mean, if she was a threat to all the animals that turned into humans in Storybrooke (maybe she could turn them all into regular Earth animals), eg. if Pongo and Perdita were humanized, along with Simba, Lady, Tramp, Bambi, Dumbo, etc. then that could possibly work.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

the fundamental concept that in the Enchanted Forest world people believe heroes get happy endings and villains don't has been established and brought up every season.

But I never thought it was believed to be the way they're showing it now, where if you're wearing a Team Villain black jersey, you don't get a happy ending, no matter what you do, and if you're wearing a Team Hero white jersey you automatically win and get everything you want. In season one, it was Henry who held tight to the belief that the heroes would ultimately have to win because that's the way it was supposed to be, and Emma basically said he was adorable while rolling her eyes at the concept. Regina talked about not being able to win because of being a villain, but I never felt like the show took her seriously on that. It was part of her being a villain that she put all the blame for the way her life was going on something other than herself. The heroes won and got happy endings not because they were wearing white Team Hero jerseys but because they did the right thing, and that paid off in the end, and also they were able to find their happiness no matter what their circumstances were. The villains lost not because they were stuck with those black Team Villain jerseys but because they were selfish and greedy, didn't know when to quit or when enough was enough, and they weren't happy no matter what they had. Regina was unhappy as a queen in a castle with magical powers and total control over legions of minions. Snow was happy hanging out in the forest with Ruby after losing everything. If they had switched places and Regina got Snow's happy ending, even after the wedding when she and Charming were finally together, Regina still wouldn't have been happy. That was what led to the curse: nothing could give Regina a happy ending, and it wasn't because she had "villain" stamped on her butt, but rather because she pretty much refused to be happy and let other people's happiness make her unhappy.

 

Now the whole message has gone utterly insane -- someone can be labeled a potential villain in the womb and their mother judged on that basis, but there's still free will and everyone can go either way, unless you do a spell to change it, but then it still comes down to how the person is brought up. You're a villain because you got that label, not because of what you actually did, and that dictates your life so you can't get a happy ending, but the way you go about doing things is what makes you a villain and keeps you from getting a happy ending. There's free will, but there's the Author, and ARRGGGGHHH! IT MAKES NO SENSE.

 

It would have helped a lot if this whole thing didn't start with Regina's whining and self pity and everyone else buying into it, especially now that they've revealed that the Authors just record history and it was a crime for this one Author to try to make changes. So they've pretty much stated that Operation Mongoose was wrong from the start and that asking an Author to change Regina's outcome would have been a crime, except they don't seem to have noticed that.

 

So if we hadn't had the Operation Mongoose idiocy and if it had just been about the villains wanting to get to the Author to force happy endings for themselves, and that was shown as wrong, with the good guys having to stop them by finding the Author first, and maybe with the twist that the Author they were looking for was actually a rogue who had to be stopped, that might have been interesting.

[Camera One]

I think the show would actually improve without Rumple. Trying to keep him indefinitely as a villain who can't be totally reformed or permanently killed isn't working. He's only still around because he's a regular character, not because the story requires his presence. The cast could easily be pared, with some of the current regulars becoming "recurring." But after this season, I'm not sure I'd be too sad if they let it die. It's just getting too frustrating. The gap between what it could be and what it is keeps getting wider.

 

They are choosing to use characters in a way that is not sustainable for a long-running show.  If they do want to keep Rumple and use him as a long-running character, they could have done that.  Before Season 4 started, that was definitely a possibility, with many avenues to explore including his PTSD, his loss of Neal, his new marriage to Belle, and even that "slip" with killing Zelena.  But they have destroyed Rumple in Season 4 the same way they destroyed Regina in Season 2, by making him flip-flop one too many times and going several steps too far in his manipulation of Belle. 

 

Without long-term planning in terms of character arcs and where you want them to go, the life of a series can be shortened prematurely with so much potential untapped.

[Zuleikha]

But I never thought it was believed to be the way they're showing it now, where if you're wearing a Team Villain black jersey, you don't get a happy ending, no matter what you do, and if you're wearing a Team Hero white jersey you automatically win and get everything you want.

The worldbuilding was ambiguous enough that the show could have gone either way, but I thought it was clear that generally, the residents of the Enchanted Forest believed that heroes got happy endings and villains didn't. Snow and Charming, Rumplestiltskin, Regina, and the narration all explicitly referenced the belief across the seasons, and Regina's speech about going to a place villains can finally win (in ep 2) seemed to resonate with her circle of villains, implicitly reinforcing it. So it's not a belief that was retconned into the show in s4. (I also vehemently disagree with the idea that Regina was unhappy in the Enchanted Forest only because of internal character flaws rather than because she was in a sh*t situation, but that's a discussion for the Regina thread)

 

 

 

It would have helped a lot if this whole thing didn't start with Regina's whining and self pity and everyone else buying into it,

Minus the editorializing about Regina, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The writers led into the Author quest poorly, but the previous seasons laid the groundwork to do it right. They just needed to pace things to where Regina/Henry were questioning the role of the Book in happy endings, researching to learn more about it (rather than to find an Author), actually learned more, and had that lead to the discovery of the concept of the Author, the room of many books, and maybe even the idea that an Author was imprisoned who had the power to change people's fates. Then 4B becomes the race against Rumple to find the Author first, with many philosophical conversations along the way. Heck, Regina's happy ending could even be a temptation rather than a goal--something Rumple uses to try and get Regina to work with him (because I love Rumple/Regina scenes; there's a crackling energy there).

 

But to do that, the show writers would have to have a coherent idea of what how the world of the show actually works, and it's clear that they currently don't. Like is it even true that heroes get happy endings and villains don't? I'd argue that "Poor Unfortunate Souls"--along with looking at Marian's/Belle's lives--showed that it's not but yet Hook seemed to learn the opposite lesson. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Zuleikha

[HoodlumSheep]

They are choosing to use characters in a way that is not sustainable for a long-running show. If they do want to keep Rumple and use him as a long-running character, they could have done that. Before Season 4 started, that was definitely a possibility, with many avenues to explore including his PTSD, his loss of Neal, his new marriage to Belle, and even that "slip" with killing Zelena. But they have destroyed Rumple in Season 4 the same way they destroyed Regina in Season 2, by making him flip-flop one too many times and going several steps too far in his manipulation of Belle.

Without long-term planning in terms of character arcs and where you want them to go, the life of a series can be shortened prematurely with so much potential untapped.

I agree. As a character I think Rumple's time has come to an end (figuratively at least). they've had 4 seasons to figure out where they want his character to go. There have been so many things they could've done with his character, but it's kinda too late for that in my opinion. If they decided to visit some of that stuff it'd probably feel like an afterthought.

[Serena]

I tune out this show's dumb speeches so much that I didn't notice this until someone posted the dialogue in another thread:

So he doesn't lose faith in the person you've become The person he always believed you could be.

He always believed? Say what?

[Camera One]

Yeah, Henry "always" believing in Regina is totally stretching it.  It makes it all the more obvious those stupid voice-over speeches are horribly written.  It was even clunkier on rewatch.  Especially when Regina said, "Wait, I don't understand" at the end of it.

[YaddaYadda]

It makes it all the more obvious those stupid voice-over speeches are horribly written

 

It's usually a lame attempt at being deep, but there's really nothing deep about Once anymore.

[stealinghome]

The worldbuilding was ambiguous enough that the show could have gone either way, but I thought it was clear that generally, the residents of the Enchanted Forest believed that heroes got happy endings and villains didn't.

Is that really unique to the Enchanted Forest though? I mean, isn't that a belief that we all at least like to believe, even in this world--basically that there's karma? That right will win at the end?

 

I never took it as some sort of quasi-religious statement, largely because it then begs the question of why the HELL anyone seeking some form of happiness would actively choose to be a villain (Regina, Cora).

[Camera One]

It seemed like a romanticized belief even in the Enchanted Forest too.  Some of the villains had reigns of terrors which lasted hella long.  True, they weren't "happy" per se in that they didn't have what they really really wanted (eg. Rumple didn't have his son), but their life was so much better than the people they terrorized.  The show is full of mixed messages.  On the one hand, they are relying on the fairy tale trope that heroes get a happy ending, but that's not what they are perpetuating with their story.  All the villagers who stood up to Regina and refused to disclose Snow's location while she was a bandit... they were all heroes, yet they all died.  Half the time the heroes help someone out, they get burned and make their own life worse.  To an ordinary peasant in the Enchanted Forest, it certainly didn't look like good always wins. 

 

The writers say the villains also justify their actions.  To them, they are doling out the karma, since their victims deserve what's coming to them, so they don't see themselves as the bad guy.  Yet at the same time, especially this season, they bemoan that they're villains and villains never get their happy endings, as they've repeated ad nauseum.

 

And this season, they've brought on a bunch of quasi/lapsed villains.  Like Maleficent holed up in her castle moping.  Or Ursula, who is diligently working at a minimum wage job instead of trying to screw over people in NYC, which she would be doing if she were a true villain, no?   Or maybe we should call them the inconsistent villains.  Today, their idea of bad is drinking heavily and setting fire to a police car.  Yesterday, their idea of bad was mass murder.   

 

It's just all over the place.  

Edited April 6, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

Is that really unique to the Enchanted Forest though? I mean, isn't that a belief that we all at least like to believe, even in this world--basically that there's karma? That right will win at the end?

I don't think it is a uniform belief in our world. Many religions position the Afterlife as the place where good will be rewarded and evil will be punished rather than the earthly world. We also don't use the specific fairy tale language of villains/heroes/happy endings.

 

I never took it as some sort of quasi-religious statement, largely because it then begs the question of why the HELL anyone seeking some form of happiness would actively choose to be a villain (Regina, Cora).

 

Because they don't see themselves as a villain. Heck, technically, Cora wasn't. The Miller's Daughter is the heroine of her tale (although she then became the Queen of Hearts, who is a villain). Regina has grown to a point of pretty stable self-awareness that she was a villain as the Evil Queen, but during her backslide in 2B, she was definitely in denial again. IIRC, she had a few conversations in 3A that were where she wrestled with coming to terms that she really had been the villain of the Snow White story. 

 

Anyway, I don't want to justify the belief because I agree with the general complaint that it's incoherent when you look at how people's actual lives played out. I still think it's a possibility that the end of 4B is going to have the show make it canon that heroes/villains/Happy Endings don't exist as the Enchanted Forest residents have understood them. My point is simply that what was shown on the show was core adult characters (i.e. not just Henry) and narration repeatedly and sincerely referencing the beliefs that happy endings are a real thing and that heroes are supposed to get them and villains aren't, so the show set up the groundwork to have Regina, Henry, and other characters make decisions based on this belief.

[Shanna Marie]

I may not be remembering accurately, but in season one it did seem like only Henry or people talking to Henry did the whole "the good guys will always win!" routine. When Regina talked about not being able to get her happy ending because she was a villain, it came across like yet another way she places blame elsewhere -- she didn't get a happy ending not because she was a villain, but because she did villainous things, didn't know when to stop, and wasn't ever satisfied. She couldn't achieve a happy ending because it wasn't enough for her to hurt Snow, drive her out of her home and usurp her kingdom, but she couldn't be happy knowing Snow was alive, so she never let up. The same thing happened in Storybrooke -- Even when Emma planned to give up and leave town, she couldn't be happy knowing Emma existed. I never got the sense that the show itself or any other characters really believed that being a villain automatically meant that you'd lose or that being a hero automatically meant you'd win. I didn't even think any of them applied the "hero" label to themselves. Only Henry was labeling people heroes and villains.

 

As for the current nonsensical plot -- supposedly turning Emma dark is required, but how long have the villains been in town and what have they done toward that goal? Aren't we about halfway through the arc without them even interacting with Emma? Emma's angry at her parents, but that happened just because they showed up and Snow and Charming lied. They're not working very hard if they haven't set up any temptations or obstacles. They haven't hurt people she cares about, haven't framed anyone into looking like they've betrayed her, haven't taken anything she loves away from her. They've barely noticed her existence. They're not demonstrating a lot of urgency here.

[Camera One]

They're not working very hard if they haven't set up any temptations or obstacles. They haven't hurt people she cares about, haven't framed anyone into looking like they've betrayed her, haven't taken anything she loves away from her. They've barely noticed her existence. They're not demonstrating a lot of urgency here.

 

Rumple's too busy checking in on Sleeping Belle, okay?

 

Seriously speaking, though, I'm sure all that manipulation will happen next.  One contrived set of events at a time, with this show.  Now that Emma knows she could be the paragon of darkness thanks to Mommy and Daddy Egg Stealers, she will doubt herself more and more until she turns into The Ultimate Evil, the worst all the universes had ever seen.  The white streaked hair that Cruella has will look more and more attractive, along with horned hats, green blush and low cut blouses.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The white streaked hair that Cruella has will look more and more attractive, along with horned hats, green blush and shoulder pads.

And, most important for any woman tending toward darkness, cleavage!

 

But really, considering that the two key elements of Rumple's grand plan were finding the Author and turning Emma dark, they've kind of fallen down on the job.

[Camera One]

LOL, I just thought of that and changed it before you replied! 

 

As someone said in another (or maybe this) thread, Rumple and Maleficent have been all sorts of erratic and ineffective.  They're so evil until they're not.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

As for the current nonsensical plot -- supposedly turning Emma dark is required, but how long have the villains been in town and what have they done toward that goal? Aren't we about halfway through the arc without them even interacting with Emma? Emma's angry at her parents, but that happened just because they showed up and Snow and Charming lied. They're not working very hard if they haven't set up any temptations or obstacles. They haven't hurt people she cares about, haven't framed anyone into looking like they've betrayed her, haven't taken anything she loves away from her. They've barely noticed her existence. They're not demonstrating a lot of urgency here.

 

They're too busy following Rumple's advise:  "Continue to repent your wicked ways. Make friends. Build relationships."

 

Oh, wait...

[Shanna Marie]

They're too busy following Rumple's advise:  "Continue to repent your wicked ways. Make friends. Build relationships."

Well, Ursula did make friends with Hook, rebuild her relationship with her father and repent her wicked ways, but probably not in the way Rumple intended.

 

See, this is where the plan is failing because the way to turn Emma dark might have been to act like they were repenting and make friends with Emma, and then start dropping hints to Emma about her parents' terrible secret, and meanwhile do something to make her not trust Hook -- while Rumple was scamming Belle, he could have let Emma see "Hook" with someone else or doing something that would disappoint her -- and then her new friends would be the only place she could turn in her anger and disappointment, then they could egg her on to getting revenge and lead her down a dark path.

 

Staying totally out of her way and doing nothing is a really bad strategy.

 

These villains suck at villaining if a Sunday school teacher and choir girl can totally out-evil scheme them.

[KingOfHearts]

 

When Regina talked about not being able to get her happy ending because she was a villain, it came across like yet another way she places blame elsewhere

Specifically to Regina, her problem was people calling her a villain (and they rightfully did) because Snow rallied them all against her. Even in Storybrooke, she was feared as evil when she didn't want to be. She wanted to be loved and adored despite all her constant sinning. Later she expanded her blame to saying not only did people think of her as a villain, but so did fate. She could never win because she was in the "wrong column". And thus, the Author plot was born.

 

This whole "heroes win, villains lose" works when it comes out of Regina's, Henry's or Snow's mouth, but certainly not Emma's or Hook's. This is the real head-scratcher - not only does the unjustified-villain-label apply to Regina now, but to everyone. Rumple bought it, the Queens bought it and even the heroes bought it. Now everyone has been officially sucked into Regina's Black Hole of Woe. The writers twisted the universe just to fit her.

Edited April 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Specifically to Regina, her problem was people calling her a villain (and they rightfully did) because Snow rallied them all against her.

That's how I think the worldview of the show has changed. In the first season, Regina was blaming other people for her villain status and not being able to win -- they persisted in seeing that stupid Snow as some kind of hero when Regina knew her to be a life-ruining murderer (by proxy), and everyone was out to get Regina, therefore she couldn't have a happy ending. The current worldview is that there's something in the fabric of the universe that dictates that villains don't get happy endings, and because she was wrongfully stuck in the villain column even though she's stopped murdering people, she can't be allowed to find happiness unless she successfully petitions to get the villain label removed.

 

Likewise, I don't recall any of the good guys in the earlier seasons seriously calling themselves heroes. Henry was spouting all the pep talks to Emma about how heroes can't lose because that's not how the stories go because he was desperately clinging to that hope. And yeah, the heroes did win, but not because that's how stories go but because heroes do brave things and love and make sacrifices. The heroes won in that instance because Henry had so much faith that the stories were true and that Emma was the Savior that he ate the tart before she could so she would have to believe and then break the curse. Henry had a childish, simplistic view of the world that wasn't actually universally correct, even if he was occasionally right. In fact, we kept seeing in the flashbacks that the heroes didn't always win. The reason they win in the end is that they hold on to hope and don't give up, but heroes did die and kill and suffer, and villains like Rumple win at every turn because they rig the game.

 

I don't remember when the good guys actually started seriously referring to themselves as heroes, but it seems like a more recent development to fit this stupid plot. Before it was always other people using the term about them, like Hook chiding them about losing hope in Neverland because "you hero types" were supposed to have hope. Or it was, again, Henry being a naive kid and saying stuff like "you're heroes and heroes don't kill."

 

And this may be more of a question for the morality thread, but didn't the writers talk about shades of gray before in discussing this show? Isn't there a middle ground between being a hero and being a villain? They act now like you're either a villain or a hero, and if you've stopped being a villain that makes you a hero. But there's a lot of room in there for just being human -- not doing bad things but not going above and beyond to do extraordinarily good things. I think the "hero" label should be reserved for someone who unselfishly goes above and beyond the call of duty to help others, just because it's the right thing to do and not because they're expecting some kind of reward. It's not a title you get just for not being evil. Emma is a hero. I'm not even sure I'd apply the term to Snow or Charming because how much have they really done for other people? They mostly just fought to defend themselves. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Defending yourself is perfectly okay. Regina may have stopped being a villain, but she's no hero, either.

[Zuleikha]

From the Pilot's opening narration: "One day they found themselves trapped in a place where all their happy endings were stolen."

 

And from the war council scene later: "Snow White: There's no point. The future is written.

Prince Charming: No. I refuse to believe that. Good can't just lose!" When Snow White and the Evil Queen find Charming and the wardrobe: "Snow White: She got away. You're going to lose. I know that now. Good will always win." 

 

Here's the quote from episode 2 when Regina takes the locks of hair from the villains: "Evil Queen: Who among us is tired of losing? That's why I called you here. To put an end to our misery. Today, we claim victory. And move to a new, better realm. A place where we can finally win.

Blind Witch: And we'll be happy?"  

 

So the exact language may have changed some--I don't remember when heroes/villains replaced good/evil--, but the overall idea has been there from the start. I believe there are some other references later on in the season, too, but I don't know of a good way to search all the transcripts across the seasons for the language. 

Edited April 7, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Curio]

Here's the quote from episode 2 when Regina takes the locks of hair from the villains: "Evil Queen: Who among us is tired of losing? That's why I called you here. To put an end to our misery. Today, we claim victory. And move to a new, better realm. A place where we can finally win.

Blind Witch: And we'll be happy?"

 

This sounds eerily like Rumple's pep talk to the Queens of Darkness when he was trying to convince them to go along with the stupid Author idea. I have a feeling the Author plan to get villains their happy endings is going to crash and burn just like the Dark Curse did.

[Camera One]

Typical game-plan for a half-season:

 

First quarter: Villains win, heroes mostly clueless or putting out fires

Second quarter: Villains win, heroes gain a few token points but mostly still putting out fires or have little idea how they can use their assets

Third quarter: Villains take control, the heroes' most powerful weapon is... hope.

Final 30 seconds: Heroes win due to a fluke

After the game: Heroes go to parking lot and someone slashed their tires.  Bleak times ahead.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

This sounds eerily like Rumple's pep talk to the Queens of Darkness when he was trying to convince them to go along with the stupid Author idea. I have a feeling the Author plan to get villains their happy endings is going to crash and burn just like the Dark Curse did.

Rumple also manipulated them into the exact same thing with the Dark Curse. When you think about it, this whole Author plot is just a retread of the curse - it's a way to give villains their happy ending, specifically Regina. The whole premise of this show is the Evil Queen getting a chance at happiness in another realm, according to the writers. So why are we backtracking and saying she needs to callback to her Enchanted Forest problems to get her happy ending? (Finding the person who supposedly gave her miserable past.)

 

Like, really. I thought Regina's plan was going to our world and leaving everything else behind. Boy has this show changed since S1. Why do we even need Storybrooke if its the Author who can make everyone happy no matter where they are?

Edited April 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

So the exact language may have changed some--I don't remember when heroes/villains replaced good/evil--, but the overall idea has been there from the start. I believe there are some other references later on in the season, too, but I don't know of a good way to search all the transcripts across the seasons for the language.

But I think it's the nature of the way that sentiment has been articulated that has changed (excluding Henry, because he's a kid and his viewpoint is pretty warped). I don't think anyone's disputing that the show has always wanted to believe that good will win because good > evil, and has always had its characters articulating such sentiments. But there's a difference between Charming the eternal optimist believing that good has to win because it is unthinkable for evil to win because good is good and evil is evil, and Charming saying "well, we are Heroes, so OF COURSE we will win, duh." I don't think the show ever suggested the second in S1--that it was any sort of preordained thing that good always beats evil. To me, it was always framed as the first--the heroes have to believe that good will win because good is good and evil is bad, because their cause is righteous and they have to believe that good values like love and mercy will eventually trump evil values like a desire to kill lots of people and be a tyrant, etc. Like, from the pilot:

 

Charming: This is going to happen unless we do something.

Snow: There's no point. The future is written.

Charming: No. I refuse to believe that. Good can't just lose.

Snow: It can.

Charming: No. No. Not as long as we have each other. If you believe him about the curse, you must believe him about our child. [Etc etc]

It's apparently easy enough here for Snow to believe that, despite the fact that they're good, evil will win--Charming is working hard to stop her from losing hope. No real belief there. And Charming doesn't say "Good will win simply because we're good"--Charming says "Good will win because Rumpelstiltskin has seen the future and in it good wins." Charming himself is rebelling against the very strong possibility that evil can beat good. So again, I still don't see the S1 mentions of good and evil as some pseudo-religious, as Shanna Marie said, belief that "if you're in the Hero column you Always Win and if you're in the Villain column you Always Lose" type of thing. (Otherwise, why wouldn't the Charmings just have sat on their asses and not bothered to look for the magic tree or anything, because Good Always Wins so the universe will work it out with no help from us?--The logic problem here is the same as the August logic problem. If it's destined to happen but you have to do something specific to cause it to happen, then it's not very destined.) Obviously ymmv but the way it's being talked about on the show now is closer to predestination than a (potentially naive) belief that good will win because good is on the right side and the universe should support good. Until this season, the show has always, to my mind, stayed on the latter side of the line. It's only once the Regina woefest took over the show that it's been treated as any sort of predestined Law of the Universe.

Edited April 7, 2015 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

Obviously ymmv but the way it's being talked about on the show now is closer to predestination than a (potentially naive) belief that good will win because good is on the right side and the universe should support good. Until this season, the show has always, to my mind, stayed on the latter side of the line. It's only once the Regina woefest took over the show that it's been treated as any sort of predestined Law of the Universe.

Yeah, that's the shift I've seen. Before, it was that general belief that if you do good things, then eventually things will work out for you. It's a way of holding on to hope -- I may be going through hell right now, but if I keep fighting for the cause of good, I will be rewarded someday because evil will eventually destroy itself and good will be repaid. That's different from the attitude that of course we'll win because we're heroes and heroes always win, and villains always lose, and it doesn't really matter what we actually do because the Hero and Villain labels are what's important, so a villain will never be allowed a happy ending even if she starts acting like Mother Theresa.

[KingOfHearts]

From the Regina thread, discussing the deleted scene she had with Henry Sr. in Going Home:
 

 

It's absence is actually pretty glaring, since each act of the episode opens with a short flashback EXCEPT for the fifth one which that flashback was meant for.

 

I really feel like this flashback was one of the more necessary ones of Going Home, because it actually showed a story detail the show never elaborated on. We never got a clear explanation why Regina married Leopold despite her pleas not to. It's easy to headcanon that she wanted power, but I feel like that should have been laid out to bridge the gap. The way her scenes are portrayed post-wedding seem to imply in hindsight that she was forced to be in that marriage, which really wasn't the case.

 

Did we really need Snowing's scene with Blue or Hook/Tinkerbell? Their sole purposes were to explain a small detail in the episode. If they were going to show random tidbits of backstory that didn't need full episode flashbacks, I'd rather they explore moments that were critical to the show's plot. (Such as this scene with Regina and Henry Sr. or Henry getting the storybook from Snow.)

 

Especially with that Hookerbell scene - why didn't they show us the Neverland interactions while we were still in Neverland? Surely there could have been replacements for the Lost Girl or Nasty Habits flashbacks. If the EF flashbacks were to keep the show grounded to its base, they did a poor job of it.

Edited April 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Did we really need Snowing's scene with Blue or Hook/Tinkerbell? Their sole purposes were to explain a small detail in the episode.

 

The Hook/Tink quick flashback felt particularly tacked on and unneeded in that episode because it was just a set up for them to repeat the dialogue about "two things I'd die for: love and revenge." In the Neverland scene, Hook says that line to Tink. In literally the very next scene a couple seconds later in the church, Tink throws that line back at him, "I thought you only risked your life for love or revenge?" It's like, gee...thanks writers. I really needed to get hit over the head with that one. It would have worked better if that Hook/Tink flashback happened a few episodes earlier so that the callback in "Going Home" would have been more of a treat for viewers who remembered that piece of dialogue a couple episodes earlier. But by having it in the same episode, it felt more like anvilicious writing.

 

And yes, more Neverland flashbacks in Neverland would have been nice.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Curio

[Zuleikha]

We never got a clear explanation why Regina married Leopold despite her pleas not to. It's easy to headcanon that she wanted power, but I feel like that should have been laid out to bridge the gap.

 

I'm going to bring this back to the Regina thread since I think the scene is more Regina specific than all-seasons specific, but short version is that Regina/Henry Sr.'s scene does not show Regina wanting to marry Leopold for power. She does not want to marry him and neither she nor Henry Sr. seem to think she has a choice.

[retrograde]

I was just reading the comments in the latest A&E interview, and it occurred to me that the author plotline seems to pretty much universally hated across all factions of the fandom. This forum is often out of step with the popular opinion on plots and characters (and I wouldn't have it any other way) but on this one, everyone seems to be united in their condemnation -- tumblr, twitter, reddit, tv blogs... 

[YaddaYadda]

I'd like to say that the Author storyline better make sense, but I know it won't because as usual, they will leave most things up in the air because they don't know how to tie loose ends or they just forget about it.  We were always going to find out about the Author.  The book is a big deal and a lot of us wondered who wrote the book as far back as season 1, but what we're getting right now is the last thing I expected.

[Camera One]

The book is a big deal and a lot of us wondered who wrote the book as far back as season 1, but what we're getting right now is the last thing I expected.

 

Back in Season 1, I figured we were going to see Blue preparing the book.  I agree this convoluted mess was definitely a surprise, and not the good kind.

[retrograde]

I wouldn't have objected to us meeting the author and he or she playing some sort of role, but a) the search for the author was dull as dog shit, and b) the idea that the author is both responsible for all the bad decisions characters have made and the only one who can give people their happy endings is just a terrible plot that appeals to one one. Regardless of which character and/or ship you like on this show, you want to see those people get their happy ending on their own merits. Both Regina lovers and Regina haters only want to see her get a happy ending she has worked for. 

[KAOS Agent]

Well how boring would it be if all anyone has to do is walk up to someone and tell them to write your life so you're happy? That's not satisfying on any level to anyone looking for drama. I know that there are some hardcore fans who'd be just fine with their favorite getting everything handed to them on a platter, but really, then what? If Regina has everything she ever wanted and she's immensely wonderfully happy,  there is zero story for her. She should just go away because watching any character run around in some happy, happy bubble where everything's perfect would be as appealing as watching paint dry. 

 

This author storyline is convoluted and has removed the message this show has preached from the beginning about free will/choice and evil being made not born. You can't create a story about the heroes believing that Emma is Baby Hitler in utero and having a writer make a character do whatever the author wants without screwing up everything that has come before. It doesn't help when the writers have to take to Twitter to explain what exactly happened in the previous episode. Or when an interviewer has to ask the showrunners what happened between Emma & her parents because it all occurred offscreen. Questions for details surrounding major plot points should not happen. It should be clear when watching.

[retrograde]

The dumb thing is, they still could have almost everything else they're doing this season without the author crap. The trio (on some more general revenge quest) and Rumple, Mal's baby and Snowing, Emma and Snowing's shitty decisions, Hook dealing with his own dark past, Belle getting over Rumple... the author plot has been shoehorned into most of these things, but none of them are contingent on it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by retrograde

[Zuleikha]

The trio (on some more general revenge quest) and Rumple, Mal's baby and Snowing, Emma and Snowing's shitty decisions, Hook dealing with his own dark past, Belle getting over Rumple...

Yeah, but most of that has been crap, too. I think that's the biggest problem. It's not just that the Author plot is muddled and poorly executed; so is the plot for the Queens of Darkness. A&E did an interview in which they had to try and explain why Ursula could get a happy ending and their answer was so incoherent that they really might as well have said, "Yeah, we didn't think through the implications of that choice Sorry!"  Edited April 9, 2015 by Zuleikha

[KingOfHearts]

Maleficent's story would have been perfect as the main arc, with Ursula and Cruella just being side-characters with one-offs. Mal has the entire Sleeping Beauty story, her relationship with Regina, her efforts to stop the curse and the Snowing/Lily plot all under her belt. Unlike Zelena or Ingrid, she has several legitomate ties to the main characters.

I have to admit I've enjoyed the Queens as characters, but not their role as a red herring for the Author plot.

Edited April 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

The show has clearly (wait, is anything about this show actually clear?) lost it's way/ mind/ sense.

I never watched "Lost" but my sister did. She grew increasingly annoyed with the crazy storylines that never followed reason or sense and I remember her eventually leaving the show because of the consistent let downs.

ONCE is much like that.

The spoilers are often designed, plotted and manipulated to suggest one thing, then the storyline goes elsewhere or falls flat, leaving us angry and feeling patronized or played. The way teases are dropped here and there are actually insulting to the intelligence and not just "trolling cutesy-ness"

We often expect more than they are willing or able to give in regards to depth and continuity or character development. Maybe we just expect way too much in our hunger for a grand story.

A&E are more into the Tell than Show when it comes to solid writing. And the telling happens off screen or in speed of light dialogue leaving everyone in WTF mode...OR through lame explanations in media interviews.The SHOW factor seems to be more involved with costumes, cgi and poofs of smoke.

It is sad because the magic of the show is dwindling under the weight of mediocre attention to cohesive writing.

 

Truer words were never spoken, uh, written, than that first sentence! Actually, the whole post, but I edited the quote for length.

 

I don't think expecting coherent storylines and payoff is expecting too much -- to me, those are basic expectations. But either these writers simply don't care about those things, or they're incapable of delivering them.

 

I think part of the ratings erosion is the constant letdowns. Why should viewers invest in stories if they come to realize that there's not going to be any payoff for doing so? Viewers do end up feeling taken advantage of or let-down. I know I do. The most egregious to me was the Hook's heart arc, which basically had zero payoff/fallout and was wrapped up in 26 seconds. A major, emotionally rich story that should have had huge, lasting repercussions on Hook, Emma and their relationship -- and ultimately went nowhere. That was not good storytelling. Frankly, it was authorial malpractice.

 

A&E are all setup, no payoff. They seem to think that one sentence can serve as a payoff for major arcs. Fans aren't going to be satisfied with that.

[KingOfHearts]

With Lost, it got confusing and complicated, but I never felt like it totally lost its way. The writers paid much, much more attention to worldbuilding and continuity than Once has. Lost got bad in S6, not because it was too convoluted, but because it was boring and left the original feel.

[myril]

 

My guess is that the majority of fans stick around for their love of fractured fairy tales and affection for individual characters who resonate with them on some level. And hope for moments of fun or wit.

 

Possible. Funny thing, it made me stick around maybe for a while longer than I should have, but now it is what finally has driven me away. I love a few characters way too much to stay around to watch them getting (even more) butchered, twisted for the whim of shiny toy sensations. I am even still slightly angry at myself for having been so dumb in the first place, to ever hope, that this show would in the end be anything but just a mediocre, cheesy and rather conventional, old fashioned live action Disneyworld on TV screen. A huge disappointment for someone believing, that fantasy can actually be brilliant, quality story telling. Well, not on broadcast mainstream TV, I get it, thanks A&E for clarifying that for me.

Edited April 11, 2015 by myril

[KingOfHearts]

With all this talk of people quitting the show after last week's episode, I started to think what would cause me to quit altogether. It would probably be Swan Queen becoming canon. That would do it in for me.

[Souris]

That would certainly do it for me. Though I may get there before that has a chance to happen.

[FurryFury]

I dunno, I'm not sure I haven't dropped it already. Depends on the reactions to the next few episodes, but I'm definitely skipping the Robin one.

Oh, and if he and Zelena become regulars, then I'm definitely out.

[OnceUponAJen]

Killing off Emma and/or Hook, permanently.