S04.E05: First Of His Name 2014.05.04

[Holmbo]

God I love this show by why do D&D insist on diminishing the story with ill-considered changes?  What is wrong with letting Cersei fuck up the Crown's obligations to the Iron Bank?

I took it as the show confirming something that's been speculated about the book. The Lannisters running out of gold in their mines.

But I think most readers that had those speculations where more thinking about the mines being about to run out at some point as opposed to allready being empty. The later would be hard to keep a secret.

Anyways I assumed it was something that will happen in the book that D&D just started earlier. But I could be wrong.

[Tryangle]

I took it as the show confirming something that's been speculated about the book. The Lannisters running out of gold in their mines.

But I think most readers that had those speculations where more thinking about the mines being about to run out at some point as opposed to allready being empty. The later would be hard to keep a secret.

Anyways I assumed it was something that will happen in the book that D&D just started earlier. But I could be wrong.

Good point, but I think that the director's decisions do tend to absolve Cersei of being reckless with the Crown's finances (and yes, Littlefinger's Creative Accounting didn't help).

[mac123x]

In the books, it was mentioned that the Westerlings' (Robb's wife's family) gold mines had run dry years earlier, and it seemed to be common knowledge.  It's hard to believe that if all the Lannister mines were empty, someone wouldn't have mentioned it.  It's also hard to believe that goldmines are their only source of income;  Lannisport is a big trading port; they don't make any money from excise taxes?

[Haleth]

I was of the opinion that Cersei was unwilling to pay the debts that the crown (i.e. Robert) incurred, rather than unable.  I liked the idea that she was screwing up and not that it was something out of her control.

[Joystickenvy]

I took the speech from Tywin to mean that they could no longer afford to finance the crown's debts with Lannister money, rather than they were completely broke, and thus they needed the Tyrells to keep the iron bank off their back, but I might have missed something.

Cersei can still mis-manage the funds and/or the dealings with the Tyrells and the Iron bank going forward.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Joystickenvy

[Haldebrandt]

I took it as the show confirming something that's been speculated about the book. The Lannisters running out of gold in their mines.

But I think most readers that had those speculations where more thinking about the mines being about to run out at some point as opposed to allready being empty. The later would be hard to keep a secret.

Anyways I assumed it was something that will happen in the book that D&D just started earlier. But I could be wrong.

If this true then this another spoiler from the books.  I don't mind the spoiler aspect because I want to see the end of this story and have no confidence that GRRM will get us there.  But I do mind that yet another subtle plot element (the gradual depletion of Lannister's gold) has been exaggerated to the point where it doesn't make sense.

[Boundary]

What I found disconcerting is that this was news to Cercei. Presumably Tyrion doesn't know as well. I find it difficult to buy that logic, Tywin keeps secrets but this is taking it to the extreme, isn't it?

[Haldebrandt]

On the good news end, D&D deserve all the credit for enhancing the whole Vale thing. Seeing crazy Lysa pull a Septon out of her pocket was absolutely hilarious.

 

However, I'm not sure it was wise to let the kid in on Sansa's identity.  Did he know in the book? Hard to believe Littlefinger would take that risk.

[WalterWhiteWalker]

However, I'm not sure it was wise to let the kid in on Sansa's identity.  Did he know in the book? Hard to believe Littlefinger would take that risk.

 

"A lovely crystal mockingbird buys a boy's silence for a while..."

Edited May 7, 2014 by WalterWhiteWalker

[Hanahope]

They couldn't really show the Eyrie before we got there, that would be a small spoiler.

 

Why would that be a spoiler?  LF had already said in a prior episode that they were heading there because he was going to marry Lysa.  And it can hardly be considered a "spoiler" when the locale is actually going to happen in that episode.

 

I thought I recalled that in the book, Lysa and Robin didn't know Sansa's true identity because LF was afraid of anyone knowing about it spilling the beans.  Frankly, even if he could trust Lysa, how in the world could he trust crazy Robin?  It would be very easy for Robin to make a mistake in calling Sansa "Sansa".

Edited May 7, 2014 by Hanahope

[sbkasha]

I'm pretty sure that Lysa knew that Alayne was really Sansa.  She's the one who provided the hair dye, right? 

Robin didn't know.

[mac123x]

Lysa knew who Sansa really was, but Robin did not.  He's much more of a spoiled brat in the books.  I'm looking forward to his inevitable death-by-sweetsleep OD.

[OakGoblinFly]

I half expected Sweet Robin to crawl into Sansa's bed during Lysa and Petyr's wedding night ........ might as well as add to the creepiness of that entire scene right away.

[Hanged Man]

Didn't Tyrion in season 2 say that the crown had borrowed a lot of money from the Lannisters? So the Lannisters hold a lot of the crown debt, they aren't really broke, or rather the kingdom is more broke. So have the kingdom borrow enough money from the Iron Bank to pay off the Lannister debt, so that the Lannister's are rich again and then the crown should refinance the debt agreement with the Iron Bank. And if the Iron Bank refuses to refinance then, hey, at least the Lannister's aren't broke.

 

I assume (though that may be stupid) that the Lannister's kingdom operated like all the other kingdoms plus had the gold. Even with war what happened to the centuries of gold mining? Why are the Tyrells richer when they were also at war and didn't have the gold? Remember that Mace Tyrell has been besieging Storm's End with at least some of the Tyrell forces, plus the Tyrells have fielded the army that rescued King's Landing. So even though the Tyrells weren't as heavily vested as the Lannisters in the war, the Lannisters still had their prewar stockpile of treasure.

 

I refuse to believe that Tywin is worse at managing money than Mace. Though the turn around of "Lannisters always paying their debts" and then not being able to does fit in with GRRM's way of messing things up.

[Independent George]

I'm pretty sure that Lysa knew that Alayne was really Sansa. She's the one who provided the hair dye, right?

Robin didn't know.

Not initially - she was actually noticeably displeased with the news that Littlefinger had a bastard daughter. It wasn't until after the wedding night that he told her the truth, and provided her with the hair dye.

Sweetrobin never learns the truth.

[dr pepper]

One thing they haven't done here that was in the book was the part where Littlefinger explains to Sansa that they are not going to reveal her true identity even to her aunt but she will be presented as a bastard. And Sansa seems to relish the idea of being in a conspiracy. She even enthusiastically jumps ahead of his explanation to say that obviously, her last name would be Snow. And later he feeds her some genealogical data from which she deduces that little Robin has a big inheritance coming. It is the most initiative and intelligence she's shown in the entire series. Of course it also plays into Littlefinger's obsession, to confirm that Catelyn Jr has something of her mother's mental capabilities; now in addition to being the trophy of his final triumph, she could also be a partner in administering the fruits of it.

[Independent George]

And later he feeds her some genealogical data from which she deduces that little Robin has a big inheritance coming.

That wasn't Robin, that was Harorld Hardying, and it was at the end of FFC. I can't see any way to cut that - it's the key to Littlefinger's entire plan.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Independent George

[mac123x]

I really started to like Sansa once she became Alayne Stone in the books.  She shed a lot of her fairy-tale princess naiveté, and let her intelligence start working.  I particularly liked when she figured out how Petyr was manipulating the Lords Declarant by manufacturing the confrontation with Lyn Corbray during their parlay. 

 

The show has given us glimpses of her intelligence already:

1.  Taking Joffrey's offhand remark about Dontos being a fool and using it to save Dontos's life (for a little bit at least)

2.  Figuring out Petyr was behind the assassination

3.  Recognizing that Lysa is a nutjob (though that can be seen from orbit) and figuring out the right lie to tell her ("He says I'm a stupid little girl")

 

I hope they show more of it, because I'm pretty sure Sophie Turner has a broader acting range than "scared or depressed".

[Lord of Bones]

I hope they introduce Marillion soon, otherwise who is Littlefinger going to blame for Lysa's trip through the moon door? Maybe they'll have him be inappropriate towards Sansa in one of Sansa's next scenes, similar to in the book, so that Sansa is somewhat fine with him taking the blame.

[Wilowy]

Introduce? Marillion was in four eps already, and got his tongue ripped out by Payne, right? Or did you mean just bring him to the Eyrie?

[Lord of Bones]

I should have said re-introduced but I suppose without a tongue that would be unlikely. They're going to need someone to blame for Lysa's death. Or is Littlefinger going to claim she tripped and fell out, or threw herself out?

[Wilowy]

Maybe he'll claim Robin pushed her in a fit of temper then flung himself after her in anguish! Anyone would believe that freaky kid would do it. Two birds!

[Rhondinella]

Yeah, I wondered if they were going to bring Marillion back with no tongue and a sign language interpreter or something.  Heh.

 

Also, remind me (I haven't read the books in a while): What does stop Cersei and Loras from getting married in the books?  Just her father's death?  He was the one pushing it so after he died she refused to do it?  I can't remember.

[GreyBunny]

If they need a singer for Sansa's storyline they'll get another one (hopefully not Tom O'Sevens).

Edited May 11, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Lady S.]

Also, remind me (I haven't read the books in a while): What does stop Cersei and Loras from getting married in the books?  Just her father's death?  He was the one pushing it so after he died she refused to do it?  I can't remember.

The Tyrells never agreed to the match (to the crippled heir Willas, not Loras, who was already in the Kingsguard) because Cersei was too old. By this time Tywin was trying to hook her up with Oberyn, and I don't remember if we know what happened with that, but likely he would have turned them down too if it weren't for his own sudden death. I keep being surprised this surely going nowhere invented betrothal is still a thing on the show.

Any redshirt can serve as the patsy for Lysa's murder, I'm not gonna miss seeing another guy perving on Sansa.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

They should have Mord take the fall.
Then they'd have an excuse to bring back him and show his golden teeth :)

[GreyBunny]

Aw poor Mord!  He was kind of awesome.  If he does reappear I'd rather that he give Littlefinger that fateful shove on Sansa's orders.

[John Potts]

Interesting to see cunning Cersei - she could see Tommen was sweet on Margery and instead of getting out the claws tried to be her "friend". Did like the framing where Cersei steps between Margery and Tommen. I'm guessing "Granny" Lannister has seen that Tommen is sweet on Margery and is trying to win her boy back by "playing nice" (not that I'd believe she meant it, even if I wasn't spoiled on their destinies).

Petyr's facial expressions when he realised Lysa planned their wedding right now was priceless. I know you're desperate to get his little finger inside you, but let the guy use the privy first.

On ‎05‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:01 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Why is it that I was fine with the murdering part of the episode but completely disgusted by the Lysa Arryn sex sounds?

Completely true to the Books, though (I know, we covered that scene in the re-read of Storm of Swords) - she was both excessively eager and implausibly loud.

On ‎05‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:57 AM, mac123x said:

"How can I rule seven kingdoms if I can't control Slavers' Bay?"  Well, you're not planning on completely overthrowing the economy of the Seven Kingdoms and revising the culture they've lived with for thousands of years are you?

Sure she is! She's going to "Break the Wheel", remember?[/sarcasm] (OK, I forget when exactly she says that).

On ‎05‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 5:49 AM, Sew Sumi said:

Since we were unsullied for the Craster's stuff, I found it interesting that Jon allowed the noob Locke to be the forerunner for his attack party. Sure, obvious plot device, but still, wasn't there another Brother that was more trusted, rather than...enthusiastic?

Well, he did do one thing that his (not actual) Brothers realised: the virtue of stealth. He got to the prisoners without being spotted. When Jon & co attack, rather than trying to knock off as many as possible by using stealth, they scream a battle cry as they approach!

But on the subject of this week's visit to rape central, just what are Craster's wives going to do? They didn't seem to want to go with the Night Watch (understandable) or stay where they were (also understandable) so they're going to do what? Die in the snow? Join with Mance (which would rather defeat the purpose of killing the deserters in the first place)?