The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[Azi]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

it's really not all that different from Sansa finding out about Bran and Rickon, which must have happened offscreen between Clash and Storm, whereas Jon and Arya find out onscreen. I think GRRM was just trying to avoid repetition by showing each and every Stark PoV find out about each and every Stark tragedy. Hell, we don't even see everyone finding out about Ned's death. Cat and Robb find out offscreen before her last chapter in the first book, sometime after the Battle of the Whispering Wood but before their triumphant entrance into Riverrun with the KitN scene, we don't have any more details than that, and Catelyn can't dwell on it too much with everything else going on. They obviously knew about Ned's death by the KitN scene without the ambiguity wrt Sansa/the Sack of Winterfell and Jon/the Red Wedding, but we don't see an immediate response like the show scene of them grieving in the woods.

I didn't need the exact moment he found out, but I do remember reading and reading and reading and never quite knowing if Jon already knew or not. A simple "Since he found out he felt blablabla" or just a simple throwaway sentence about the last few days being harder and or sleeping well, because of it would have been enough.
But then, it's been a while since I actually read the books and English is not my first language, so I might have missed it.

[benteen]

Because I find the dynamic fascinating, I always wondered what Jon felt about Catelyn's death.  I think he would have been sad if only because Catelyn was the mother of his siblings and I think he would have been enraged over what the Freys did to her body.  Just my opinion.

Edited April 25, 2017 by benteen

[YaddaYadda]

Probably not the right thread, but in AGoT, Jon holds her responsible for what's happening, and that if his father was killed, then she would be as responsible for it as the queen. 

I think it would be interesting to find out exactly what he thinks especially with Robb's death following Ned's.

[WearyTraveler]

Well, I think considering that Catelyn grabbing Tyrion from the inn was what started the conflict with the Lannisters, and a case could be made that this conflict led to Ned's death, it's understandable that Jon feels that way in AGoT, but I do think that he probably feels different about Catelyn's death via Red Wedding.

Jon would probably tend to excuse Robb's behavior more than Catelyn's because he doesn't have the same level of resentment toward Robb and when he realises he does resent him, he immediately feels guilty.  But more than that, given Jon's history with Ygritte, I think he would understand Robb's actions better than most.  And most of all, he would consider the scale of the revenge taken by the Freys to be disproportionate to the offense.  So, on moral principles, and his own sense of justice (instilled in him by Ned), I think Jon would probably disapprove of Catelyn's murder.

Side note:  Many people condemn Robb for marrying Jeynne, specially after the show portrayed it as "twu love", but, in the books, he did the most honorable thing he could have done as per the rules of his society.  The transgression of taking Jeynne's virginity is superior to the transgression of breaking an engagement, so he did do the honorable thing.

[benteen]

Robb marrying Jeyne was the honorable thing to do and it at least would be viewed I agree.  Even if it was stupid.  On the show, the transgression would have gone over even more badly in the books.

[Lady S.]

On 4/25/2017 at 8:17 AM, benteen said:

Because I find the dynamic fascinating, I always wondered what Jon felt about Catelyn's death.  I think he would have been sad if only because Catelyn was the mother of his siblings and I think he would have been enraged over what the Freys did to her body.  Just my opinion.

This isn't really an answer but I'm pretty sure Kitten has said in more than one interview that Jon lost his brother, his first love, and his stepmother etc. in s3-s4, which I thought was interesting because I wouldn't really characterize her death as a loss for him the way the others were. It's not like he would have wanted to see her again, but he wouldn't have been glad she was dead either, especially as she didn't die of natural causes but was horribly murdered. I think he would have seen the Red Wedding overall as a tragedy and an outrage. But Catelyn was a big influence in his life, even if it wasn't in a positive way, and a big presence for him, emotionally, in his childhood, even if they didn't have much of a relationship, so in that sense, her death together with Robb's, and with the Sack of Winterfell, and the Boltons taking the Starks' place in the North would have one more loss among many. I'm sure he would have felt bad for his siblings becoming motherless too so suddenly, but he never expected to see any of them again anyway post-RW. His entire world as he'd known it at Winterfell was dead and gone, the good and the bad, even the mean stepmother who he used to be scared ended up just another victim getting worse than she deserved. He wouldn't miss Catelyn herself but she was part of the life and the family he missed. (I don't think he ever actually blamed her for Ned's death. That was a thought spurred by Jeor saying she'd messed up with the Tyrion capture, with Jeor calling her Jon's lady mother and Jon angrily correcting him and thinking about Tyrion being his friend. When Ned actually is dead, his fury is directed at Joffrey and the Lannister hatred never goes away after that but he never thinks again about anyone else. Even if you think Tyrion's capture did cause Ned's death, Jon had already shown himself to be more generous and mature towards Catelyn than she ever was to him on the day they last saw each other.)

[YaddaYadda]

Jon may never see "Catelyn" again, but I'm assuming that he will get to see the zombified version of her.

[benteen]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Jon may never see "Catelyn" again, but I'm assuming that he will get to see the zombified version of her.

I imagine UnCat's view of him is probably much, much worse.

[John Potts]

On ‎25‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 6:09 PM, WearyTraveler said:

Many people condemn Robb for marrying Jeynne, specially after the show portrayed it as "twu love", but, in the books, he did the most honorable thing he could have done as per the rules of his society.  The transgression of taking Jeynne's virginity is superior to the transgression of breaking an engagement

Well, that's debatable. Basically, he had to do something dishonourable ("Sullying" Jeyne or breaking his engagement to Miss Random Frey). I'm pretty sure the Late Lord Frey would have a different opinion of which he thought was more dishonourable!

I think even if Jon wasn't the biggest fan of Catelyn, she was still the closest thing he had to a mother (even if a distant, verging on abusive one at times). And just on a human level, he would be horrified by her death.

I hadn't actually considered what might happen if Stoneheart met a resurrected Jon, but that would certainly be... interesting.

[Avaleigh]

Arya XII

Arya feels gutted over the loss of her mother, Robb, and everyone else in her family. She dreams about wolves. 

And dreamed. That was the best part, the dreaming. She dreamed of wolves most every night. A great pack of wolves, with her at the head. She was bigger than any of them, stronger, swifter, faster. She could outrun horses and outfight lions. When she bared her teeth even men would run from her, her belly was never empty long, and her fur kept her warm even when the wind was blowing cold. And her brothers and sisters were with her, many and more of them, fierce and terrible and hers. They would never leave her.

Arya wishes that she could sleep all day and night and dream, but the Hound forces her to get up every morning. They have two horses now and Arya notices that the Hound doesn't watch her as closely as he once did. She thinks that her horse might be able to outrun his but doesn't attempt to find out. She thinks to herself that she'll kill the Hound in his sleep but can't bring herself to actually do it. She can't decide where she would even go if she did decide to go off on her own. She knows that Winterfell isn't an option and takes Riverrun off of the table because she she's never met the Blackfish. She considers going to Lady Smallwood but isn't entirely sure that she'd be able to find Acorn Hall again on top of being unsure about whether or not Lady Smallwood would be willing to take her in. 

Her thoughts turn to the Brotherhood and there's a part of her that admits she wouldn't mind being back with them. She also thinks about how Gendry, Hot Pie, and the Brotherhood were never her pack and how she was stupid to think they ever were. 

The Hound refuses to tell Arya where they're going and tells her that she isn't worth anything to him now. Entire days pass without either of them speaking and Arya again has thoughts about killing the Hound. They eventually run into a survivor of the Twins who was in service to Ser Marq Piper. The man is badly wounded and starts talking about where he was during the Red Wedding. The Hound gives the man the "gift of mercy" and after the man is dead, they make sure to take his money and weapons. 

Arya decides to ask again about where they're going and is told that they're headed for the Eyrie to see if her aunt will be willing to ransom her. Arya wants to go back to the Twins to see if her mother might somehow still be alive but the Hound refuses. He says that it's possible Catelyn was kept alive to be ransomed but tells Arya that he isn't willing to go back to the Twins to find out. He says that he can't storm the castle all by himself. Arya tells the Hound that he wouldn't be alone because she'd be with him, but he doesn't change his mind and Arya gets angry and tells the Hound that he's just afraid to die. The Hound says that death doesn't scare him; he admits that he's only scared of fire. 

Arya thinks about her mother when she goes to sleep that night and wonders if she should kill the Hound so that she can try to go back to the Twins to try and rescue her. Once Arya becomes fully immersed in her dream, she realizes that she can smell her mother's body. As she's inside of Nymeria's skin, Arya pulls her mother's body out of the river and wills it to "rise". The moment is interrupted when the wolves decide to leave after they hear the sounds of men approaching on horseback. Arya wakes up from her dream and when the Hound tries to talk to her about her mother, she tells him that she understands now that her mother is dead because she saw her in a dream. 

The Hound and Arya take shelter in a village and the villagers ultimately discourage the Hound from attempting to make the journey to the Eyrie. Basically, even if they can somehow manage to keep from freezing or starving they'll still have to deal with the risks of shadowcats, bears, and the mountain clans. The clan warriors are carrying around good steel these days and the Burned Men are said to be particularly fearless ever since Timett came back from war.

One of the girls in the village tries to make friends with Arya but Arya isn't interested. She repeatedly tells the girl to leave her alone and when the girl continues to hang around her, Arya snatches away the girl's doll, rips it open, and throws it into the river. She tells the girl that her doll looks like a real soldier now and the girl makes sure to stay away from Arya after this happens.

The Hound continues to work for the food and shelter that the villagers are providing and tells Arya that maybe they should consider staying in the village for awhile until they figure out what they'll do next. He suggests they write a letter to her aunt, but Arya doesn't like the idea of this and thinks about how she doesn't know Lysa.

Once the Hound finishes the work that he's been given, the village elder makes it clear that the Hound and Arya will have to hit the road. The Hound offers to help protect the villagers from the mountain clans but the village elder thinks that the Hound will likely bring the danger on them and even if he doesn't, the villager has heard that the Hound lost his nerve back during the Battle of the Blackwater. The Hound is surprised that the villager recognizes him and agrees to leave the village after he's paid what he's owed.

The Hound decides that they're going to head for Riverrun instead and hopes that the Blackfish will be willing to pay ransom. Arya says that the Blackfish has never met her and won't be able to know that she is who she says she is. Arya feels tired of the idea of again trying to head for Riverrun. She feels like she's been trying to get to Riverrun for years and thinks about how she always ends up someplace worse anytime she tries. 

Arya suggests that they head for the Wall but the Hound says that it's too far away and dangerous for them to be able to manage it. Arya asks the Hound if he's scared of the dangers they might face and straight out asks if he's lost his nerve for fighting. 

For a moment she thought he was going to hit her. By then the hare was brown, though, skin crackling and grease popping as it dripped down into the cookfire. Sandor took it off the stick, ripped it apart with his big hands, and tossed half of it into Arya’s lap. “There’s nothing wrong with my belly,” he said as he pulled off a leg, “but I don’t give a rat’s arse for you or your brother. I have a brother too.”

[benteen]

Quote

Arya tells the Hound that he wouldn't be alone because she'd be with him, but he doesn't change his mind and Arya gets angry and tells the Hound that he's just afraid to die.

I'd forgotten this part.  The interaction between Arya and the Hound is really good. 

I like Arya thinking about her mom.  Those two definitely had a difficult relationship.

Also had forgotten that Arya briefly considers going to Lady Smallwood (a character I wish could have popped up on the show).  Arya's options in Westeros really did suck at this point.

I do remember Arya tearing up that girl's doll though.  So long, Ser Knight!

[John Potts]

I do like the way The Hound shows that despite not being a Ser DOES represent the ideals of Knighthood better than most. He looks after his prisoner and (albeit grudgingly) does move on when the villagers ask him to. And even if he doesn't seem to really hold out much hope that the Blackfish would ransom Arya, he still does his best to look after her. OK, you'd like him to be less of a jerk about the fact that Arya has lost most of her family, but it's unsurprising given how he thinks about his family.

[Lady S.]

If there's one character I want to meet UnCat, it's Arya. That's really the main reason I even care about the Stoneheart plot. I think Arya giving her the gift of mercy would be the best way to resolve both of their revenge stories. It would be another painful experience but if Stoneheart does retain any humanity it could also provide some closure for both characters. Here we have Arya being more hung up on her mother's survival than anything else at the RW and, through subconscious warging, finding her mother's corpse and unwittingly setting her on the path to Stoneheart, which is more than we ever see Sansa or Bran affected by their mother's death. By the epilogue, we learn that the Stoneheart-led BwB is still searching for Arya in the riverlands, and I'm just realizing that they were probably looking for Arya when they found Catelyn's corpse instead. Not to mention that the opening lines here about a hole in Arya's heart remind me of Catelyn's first stone heart mention way back in AGoT and her thinking of the emptiness in her heart when she learns of Bran and Rickon's deaths.

I'm also feeling a lot of Arya/Sansa parallels here, with Arya thinking that she was just a stupid little girl (like tv Sansa crying to Marg in s3) and thinking her fantasy about joining Gendry in the BwB and living like outlaws in the songs was like stupid like one of Sansa's dreams. (There's some Arya/Gendry shipping if anyone's looking for it as I doubt Sansa would be into outlaw songs without some romance in them, but I don't really think that was on Arya's mind and it's more likely she just associates any "stupid song" with Sansa.) And then killing the little girl's soldier doll which is like Sansa destroying Sweetrobin's doll in her final chapter in this book. In both cases, what they do with the destroyed dolls afterward seems to tie back, for whatever reason, to the parent whose corpse they've seen. Arya throws the doll into water, mirroring the desecration of her mother's corpse, while Sansa puts the doll's head on a stick just as Ned's head was put on a spike. 

I'm intrigued by the thought of Arya looking for shelter from Lady Smallwood. If she could find Acorn Hall again I'm sure Lady Smallwood would want to help her, and however she managed to do so would really change Arya's story.

[benteen]

Yes on Arya meeting UnCat.  Arya might be all on revenge but I have no doubt she'd be horrified by what happened to her mother.  To me, UnCat is the Ghost of Arya Future if she keeps going down the dark, blood-soaked path she's on.

[Lady S.]

Oh! Something else I meant to remember, this chapter is the first where Arya thinks of her companion as Sandor, not just the Hound or his full name, Sandor Clegane, which probably indicates that her failure to attempt to kill him has more to it than just trauma and fatigue. I don't think Sansa ever thought of him by first name only, he was always either the Hound or Sandor Clegane to her.

[WearyTraveler]

On 5/3/2017 at 4:54 PM, Lady S. said:

And then killing the little girl's soldier doll which is like Sansa destroying Sweetrobin's doll in her final chapter in this book. In both cases, what they do with the destroyed dolls afterward seems to tie back, for whatever reason, to the parent whose corpse they've seen. Arya throws the doll into water, mirroring the desecration of her mother's corpse, while Sansa puts the doll's head on a stick just as Ned's head was put on a spike. 

I've read the books several times and never noticed this! Great observation.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion IX

Tyrion listens as Kevan tells him that he shouldn't have anything to worry about if he is indeed innocent of Joffrey's murder. Kevan tells Tyrion that Mace Tyrell, Oberyn Martell, and Tywin will be the judges at his trial and Tyrion immediately asks if he will be allowed to have a trial by combat instead. Kevan advises against trial by battle since Cersei has chosen the Mountain as Joffrey's champion. Tyrion tells his uncle that he'll sleep on it before deciding wants to do and thinks to himself that he'll need to see Bronn. Tyrion worries about how much money this is going to cost him after all is said and done.

Kevan informs Tyrion that Cersei has a lot of witnesses who are ready to testify against him, so Tyrion asks for permission to be allowed to produce witnesses of his own. Kevan agrees to accept a list of names and goes to get Podrick. Tyrion says that he didn't kill Joffrey but Kevan makes it clear that he has trouble believing in Tyrion's innocence. Tyrion tries to think of people who will speak for him and is still coming up blank by the time Podrick appears. He instructs Pod to go and find Bronn to let the sellsword know that there's a lot of money in it for him. 

Tyrion writes Sansa's name on the list and decides that she must have been the one to kill Joffrey. He wonders where she got the poison and is upset that she's demonstrated how little her marriage vows mean to her.

And yet... where would Sansa have gotten poison? He could not believe the girl had acted alone in this. Do I really want to find her? Would the judges believe that Tyrion’s child bride had poisoned a king without her husband’s knowledge? I wouldn’t. Cersei would insist that they had done the deed together.

When Kevan comes to collect Tyrion's list of witnesses, he sees that Sansa is the only name on the list. He tells Tyrion to think of other names while he still has the time since the trial is going to begin in three days.

It takes Pod more than a day to return with Bronn and it's immediately clear to Tyrion that Bronn is a different man. His clothes are nicer and he wastes no time in announcing that he's headed to Castle Stokeworth so that he can marry Lady Lollys. Tyrion lets Bronn know about how dim witted Lollys is but Bronn doesn't care. Bronn says he's there because Tyrion once told him that he'd double the offer of any person who tried to use Bronn to go against him. Tyrion says there's a possibility that he could eventually get Bronn a big piece of the North but Bronn doesn't like the fact that it isn't a guarantee. Bronn gives Tyrion his reasons for why he's turning him down and ultimately says that there's no reason that he should risk his neck for Tyrion against the Mountain of all people. Bronn asks Tyrion what he'll do and Tyrion says that he'll just have to kill the Mountain himself. He jokes about what a good song it will make and Bronn tells Tyrion that he hopes to hear people sing about it one day.

Tyrion can't sleep and starts thinking about his "ghosts". 

Instead he lay in the dark, staring up at the canopy and counting his ghosts. He saw Tysha smiling as she kissed him, saw Sansa naked and shivering in fear. He saw Joffrey clawing his throat, the blood running down his neck as his face turned black. He saw Cersei’s eyes, Bronn’s wolfish smile, Shae’s wicked grin.

It's the first day of the trial and Addam Marbrand is the one to escort Tyrion to the throne room. When Tywin asks Tyrion if he killed Joffrey, Tyrion says that he didn't do it and guesses that the gods were responsible for killing Joffrey. When Mace asks Tyrion if Sansa is to blame, Tyrion claims that Joffrey must have choked on his pigeon pie. 

Ser Balon Swann is the first witness against Tyrion and reluctantly tells the court about a time Tyrion struck Joffrey. Ser Meryn Trant expands upon Balon's story and talks about how Tyrion started physically kicking Joffrey the day rioting broke out in Flea Bottom. Oberyn reminds everyone that back in the days of the Targaryens, a person would lose a hand if they dared to strike a member of the royal family. He asks the members of the Kingsguard why Tyrion still has his hand if he'd hit Joffrey before. Balon says it's because Tyrion was King of the Hand at the time not to mention his blood relationship to Joffrey. 

Boros Blount testifies against Tyrion and tells the court that Tyrion once threatened to kill him. The Kettleblacks all testify about how Tyrion would threaten Cersei. Osmund Kettleblack tells the room that Joffrey once told him that Tyrion meant to be king in his place. Tyrion calls Osmund a liar and has to be held back by guards. Tywin chides Tyrion for being disruptive.

The trial adjourns for the day and Tyrion decides to ask Kevan if he'll ask Varys to come see him. Kevan is surprised that Tyrion seems to think there might be a chance that Varys will speak in his defense and Tyrion replies that he won't know until he talks to him.

When the trial resumes the next day, Pycelle tells everyone that Tyrion stole poisons from his chambers during his imprisonment at Tyrion's hands. Tyrion points out that no poison was found that would make a person choke to death and Pycelle says that this must be because Tyrion used it all to kill Joffrey. Tyrion again tells everyone that he's innocent and is told by Tywin that the next time he speaks out of turn he'll be bound and gagged. 

After Pycelle came the procession, endless and wearisome. Lords and ladies and noble knights, highborn and humble alike, they had all been present at the wedding feast, had all seen Joffrey choke, his face turning as black as a Dornish plum. Lord Redwyne, Lord Celtigar, and Ser Flement Brax had heard Tyrion threaten the king; two serving men, a juggler, Lord Gyles, Ser Hobber Redwyne, and Ser Philip Foote had observed him fill the wedding chalice; Lady Merryweather swore that she had seen the dwarf drop something into the king’s wine while Joff and Margaery were cutting the pie; old Estermont, young Peckledon, the singer Galyeon of Cuy, and the squires Morros and Jothos Slynt told how Tyrion had picked up the chalice as Joff was dying and poured out the last of the poisoned wine onto the floor.

Tyrion wonders how he earned so many enemies and Kevan can't help but point out how badly the trial is going for him. Kevan is cold and distant with Tyrion later that evening and again urges him to confess. He tells Tyrion that if he confesses he'll be allowed to take the black. Tyrion reminds his uncle that Ned Stark was offered the same terms and they all know how that turned out. Kevan says that Tywin didn't have anything to do with Ned's death. Tyrion doesn't believe that he won't just be murdered later at the Wall and tells Kevan that he isn't in the mood to confess. Kevan again encourages Tyrion to confess and tells his nephew that Mace Tyrell is already going to vote guilty because of Cersei's influence. Kevan also says that King's Landing is no longer going to be a safe place for Tyrion whatever the outcome of the trial because the mob would be more than happy to attack Tyrion if they had the opportunity. Later in the conversation, Tyrion tells Kevan to remind Tywin that he's his son. 

“Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna’s? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he’s had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother’s jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king’s envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him.”

Tyrion is surprised to realize that Kevan loves genuinely loves his brother.

Tyrion still hasn't decided how he wants to proceed and spends a day listening to Varys speak against him. Varys has documents to back up his claims and talks about how Tyrion wanted Tommen to be king instead of Joffrey. Tyrion thinks to himself that he ought to have chopped off Varys's head on his first day in King's Landing. He also thinks that execution sounds like a relief in comparison to having to sit through this farce of a trial. 

Oberyn goes to visit Tyrion in his cell. They drink some wine from the Arbor and Oberyn talks about how Cersei has offered him marriage in return for a guilty vote against Tyrion. Oberyn says that Ellaria likes the idea of having Cersei in their bed, but he thinks that he'd rather be in a bed with a hundred scorpions than a woman like Cersei.

They discussion the succession and Oberyn wonders if Cersei would be at all interested in publicly supporting Myrcella's claim. Tyrion says that it won't matter how Cersei feels because Tywin won't give her a choice in the matter. Oberyn says that Tywin might not live forever, and the way he says this gives Tyrion the chills. 

Oberyn talks about how justice isn't something that is often seen in King's Landing and cites the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. Tyrion says that Rhaenys's killer Amory Lorch was recently killed by a bear. He says that the Mountain is the one responsible for Aegon's death. When Oberyn asks if Tywin gave the command for these murders, Tyrion lies for his father and says that he didn't. Oberyn doesn't believe Tyrion and tells him that he sees what a dutiful son he's being for his father's benefit. He then offers to be Tyrion's champion for a trial by combat.   

[Lady S.]

I think the show improved the order of events here by having Oberyn's visit come after Shae's testimony, rather than Tyrion already knowing who his champion will be and having the Oberyn v. Gregor match so clearly telegraphed before Tyrion even decides he definitely wants trial by combat.

When Tyrion reminded Addam Marbrand that he was still a member of the royal family my first thought was that he never had been because the royal house is Baratheon.

Kevan thinking anybody would have a fair trial in King's Landing and Tyrion must be guilty if he can't prove his innocence in this Cersei-run farce is right up there with him thinking Tywin would understand Cersei's WoS. He's not an idiot but not great at objective critical thinking either. Compare that to Jaime knowing the trial meant nothing and not listening to what Cersei and Tywin say about the regicide and I think it's easy to understand why Jaime stood out to Tyrion as the only true source of familial love. I think Kevan is probably right about Tywin preferring to send Tyrion to the Wall instead of execute him, but it's bullshit to say Tywin is only as hard as he's had to be and to brush off Tyrion's feelings because he just misunderstands his abusive father, even though Tywin has made his feelings about his dwarf son quite clear right in front of Kevan. Kevan is not an evil man like Tywin and I'm ure he was a much better father to his own kids, but I wouldn't give him a pass as a good man serving a bad cause either. More like a mediocre man in service to a much worse cause when he doesn't just follow Tywin's orders but fervently endorses and defends Tywin's actions and methods from his mass-murdering at Castamere to the treatment of his father's mistress to Tywin's unfair treatment of Tyrion, eventually using one of Tywin's methods against a fellow Lannister and convincing himself it was right because Tywin did it first. The way he talks about his father's mistress is typical Tywin classicism and sexism. If Tytos was so overly generous and eager to be liked, isn't it possible he gave her the jewels or let her know she was free to wear whatever she wanted? She could still be said to be taking advantage of an easily manipulated rich man but unless she sold the jewels behind his back, then I wouldn't call it stealing. 

Ah, here's Taena Merryweather entering the action, advancing Cersei's agenda before she was even part of it.

I wonder what Cersei's plan was if Oberyn took her up on her offer. I can't imagine she actually intended to marry him. Even if she was willing to re-marry at all (which I don't believe she'd changed her mind about), a bisexual womanizing Dornishman with 8 live-in bastards who was only a second son would be her last choice.  No way in hell she'd leave Tommen and the throne to live in Dorne and share a man and his bed with Ellaria. Did she think Oberyn was as dumb as a Kettleblack to be swayed by sex  and empty promises of more or was she just assuming Jaime would prevent her ever getting married as she begged him to later? And she expected her sex appeal to be stronger than Oberyn's hatred for Lannisters which is almost as stupid as failed attempt at seducing Ned.

Tyrion's unthinking lie about Tywin ordering the deaths of Elia's children has always really stuck with me. He has no confidence that Tywin won't have him killed and every reason already to turn against him but this is still an automatic response and it's unthinkable for him not to be a loyal Lannister until his very last chapter here. The deference toward Tywin is practically pathological. No wonder he's surprised by Kevan genuine love for Tywin when his own (and his siblings', with the exception of Jaime's Kingsguard membership) obedience to Tywin comes from a place of fear and awe more than any familial affection, even more so than his hunger for Tywin's approval imo. Openly defying Tywin Lannister is just not done, and against the natural order in their family. 

[nodorothyparker]

I prefer the show's placement of Oberyn's visit and telling of his childhood trip to the Rock too because it really drove home, as if there were still any doubt, how Tyrion never stood a chance with Cersei from the very start.  Placing it waaay back in their first meeting when he first shows up in Kings Landing just makes it feel like a quaint story.

I've said before it's always quietly interesting to me how Kevan always manages to be shocked just shocked at how the main branch of the family treats each other, but it makes him look downright foolish here that he would even claim to think Tyrion is going to get a fair trial.  He's also very easily swayed in automatically assuming Tyrion's guilt and not being able to see what Cersei is doing.  I actually think the whole handling of the trial is something the show did better where it was fairly obvious that no one seemed to really care whether Tyrion was guilty as much as they were using it as a convenient means to an end to remove him from the Kings Landing inner circle of power one way or another.   Of course, the show version also removes Kevan as anything more than a minor observer and gives Jaime more to do than just skulk around in the back of the trial and provides him a stake in the outcome.

Tyrion assuming that Sansa must have been Joffrey's killer shows once again how easily the Lannisters could have avoided the damaging public spectacle of a trial in which they devoured one of their own if they had been smart about it.  As Cersei's witness parade drags on and on I find myself wondering how many of these people came forward on their own to volunteer information or whether she was carefully collecting all of these incidents, which with the exception of what Pycelle has to say are more or less true, all along planning to use them for ... something to hurt Tyrion if the opportunity ever arose.  My hunch is that it's the latter.  I find Tyrion's reflection that he'd never realized he'd made so many enemies interesting in showing that even as one of the more self-aware members of the family he hadn't noticed how many people were paying attention to the cutthroat way the Lannisters treated each other.

I like how very honest Bronn's defection is.  He's a sellsword who's made the most of his association with the Lannisters and it makes all the sense in the world for him to go for the sure payout Cersei's offering rather than a vague promise of something someday if he manages to survive fighting the Mountain, regardless of how much he may personally like Tyrion.  I like that he isn't struck by some heroic bent to sacrifice himself needlessly to prove he's anything more than he is the way such a character would in many stories.

It does say a lot about how deep Tywin's hold on his adult children runs that even with the likelihood that he'll be sentencing Tyrion to death that Tyrion will still automatically lie to protect him.

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Tyrion assuming that Sansa must have been Joffrey's killer shows once again how easily the Lannisters could have avoided the damaging public spectacle of a trial in which they devoured one of their own if they had been smart about it.  As Cersei's witness parade drags on and on I find myself wondering how many of these people came forward on their own to volunteer information or whether she was carefully collecting all of these incidents, which with the exception of what Pycelle has to say are more or less true, all along planning to use them for ... something to hurt Tyrion if the opportunity ever arose.  My hunch is that it's the latter.  

Tyrion also concludes it makes no sense for Sansa to have managed it all on her own, but more importantly there's the fact that she's already escaped. I don't think condemning her in absentia would be enough for any of the Lannisters. Even if Tywin doesn't care about Joffrey personally the way Cersei does, he'd still need a public show of justice because a public regicide where the only known killer escaped without a trace and was never truly seen to be punished would just make them look even weaker.  

So I still think Oberyn, the infamous poisoner, would have been the most plausible alternate scapegoat, as Oberyn himself points out. Especially as Oberyn already posed a problem for them with his vendetta and Tywin was only going to make it worse by refusing to even give him the Mountain. After Oberyn's dead, Tywin orders Gregor to be healed and then executed, but by then it was way too late. It was also foolish of him to allow Cersei to name Gregor champion in the first place, with neither realizing they'd just given Oberyn the chance he wanted to get his revenge, and they must have been hoping for his death anyway after he named himself Tyrion's champion. Basically, if Tywin didn't give a shit about relations with the Martells when Oberyn was alive and let him get himself killed anyway, why not stop half-assing things and just intentionally have him killed? Were there really no other fighters Cersei had confidence in against Bronn, or no other way to keep Bronn from fighting? The Lannisters just had to use the biggest, baddest brute at their command because everything's over the top with them.

Well, we know Taena came forward on her own because she and Cersei never spoke before Feast, but she was also the only one whose testimony was totally made up. I could see Janos Slynt's sons being eager volunteers, but yeah, the rest of the wedding guests were probably rounded up and questioned on Cersei's orders with some of them offered bribes and I'm sure she kept track of all the previous incidents used against Tyrion.

I like Tyrion/Bronn's last scene too. Bronn is truly a scumbag who means little good for poor Lollys when his ambitions include killing her family members, but he cares enough to fulfill his end of the deal with Tyrion and give him one last chance to outbid Cersei. He had to know Tyrion really had nothing left to offer him, certainly nothing good or sure enough to make the risk of fighting the Mountain worth it for him, so he really just came there to say goodbye and wish Tyrion luck.

[benteen]

Quote

Tyrion assuming that Sansa must have been Joffrey's killer shows once again how easily the Lannisters could have avoided the damaging public spectacle of a trial in which they devoured one of their own if they had been smart about it.

Definitely.  If the Lannisters could have ever worked together, they would be unstoppable.  But their brutal infighting destroyed them.

I liked the Bronn scene a lot because it was realistic and fits in with GRRM's unromantic view of these kind of stories.  Bronn isn't going to be Han Solo coming back to save Luke at the last second.  Being Tyrion's champion at the Vale made perfect sense.  He had nothing going for him and while a duel always comes with high risk, the reward would be high and it was.  Bronn became the man to one of the Lannisters and worked his way up to a knighthood and now a noble marriage with a chance to take over a House if he plays his cards right.

I think he would have liked to have helped Tyrion but fighting the Mountain for him would have been an extremely high risk proposition with very little chance at a reward.  He would have lost his noble marriage and likely wouldn't get another crack at one.  He'd make an enemy of Cersei and he can't afford that...right now at least.  When he marries Lollys, he becomes fond of poking the lioness.  But it makes total sense he wouldn't risk everything for Tyrion in this case and for him, it's the right decision.

Bronn's rise from sellsword to Lord Protector of a noble House (with a chance at another one) is like Littlefinger's rise on a smaller scale.

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Bronn's rise from sellsword to Lord Protector of a noble House (with a chance at another one) is like Littlefinger's rise on a smaller scale.

Or like Ramsay's rise from bastard to lord, claiming two different castles through marriage. It's a good thing we also have Davos's social climb through loyal heroism as a contrast, or else it'd look the only people who overcome their birth and get ahead in this world are amoral scumbags or heartless monsters.

[John Potts]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

It's a good thing we also have Davos's social climb through loyal heroism as a contrast, or else it'd look the only people who overcome their birth and get ahead in this world are amoral scumbags or heartless monsters.

Well that's GRRM's critique of feudalism showing through: nobles can talk about noblesse oblige all they like, but it's rarely actually practiced. In fact, in ASoIaF, it seems the Houses that actually are noble suffer as a result and the evil ones rise. It's possible he's trying to make a point there.

[Constantinople]

On 6/2/2017 at 6:36 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I prefer the show's placement of Oberyn's visit and telling of his childhood trip to the Rock too because it really drove home, as if there were still any doubt, how Tyrion never stood a chance with Cersei from the very start.  Placing it waaay back in their first meeting when he first shows up in Kings Landing just makes it feel like a quaint story.

I agree.  The story is much more effective when told in Tyrion's cell.

D&D get a lot of crap from bookwalkers, but I thought the TV version of the trial was much better than the book version.  You also get to see Cersei suck-up to the judges or their proxies (I can't remember, but I don't think that happened in the book)

I don't think of Bronn as a scumbag.  He was always open and honest about who he was and I don't feel he back stabbed Tyrion by not being his champion.  It's not as if the chivalry of the Westeros leapt at the chance to serve as Tyrion's champion.

[Lady S.]

On 6/7/2017 at 9:53 AM, Constantinople said:

I don't think of Bronn as a scumbag.  He was always open and honest about who he was and I don't feel he back stabbed Tyrion by not being his champion.  It's not as if the chivalry of the Westeros leapt at the chance to serve as Tyrion's champion.

Oh, I don't think he wronged Tyrion at all, but his plans to kill off the Stokeworths and earlier willingness to murder babies for a reward are pretty scummy imo. Sure, he's honest to Tyrion about that stuff too but I don't think honesty excuses everything.

[Avaleigh]

Jaime VIII

Jaime has just moved his things into the apartments for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. His rooms are more spacious now and he likes that he has a view of the sea. He's been spending his days attending Tyrion's trial and thinks about how Tyrion doesn't seem to have noticed his presence. Most people don't seem to recognize him because of the change in his appearance and this makes Jaime feel as though he's a stranger in his own House. 

His son was dead, his father had disowned him, and his sister... she had not allowed him to be alone with her once, after that first day in the royal sept where Joffrey lay amongst the candles. Even when they bore him across the city to his tomb in the Great Sept of Baelor, Cersei kept a careful distance.

Jaime starts thinking about the past Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard and wonders how it can be that he's now on the same list as guys like Barristan the Bold, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. He begins to look through the White Book which details the history of the men who served in the Kingsguard. He thinks about how it will now be his duty to write about the history and remembers that he'll have to somehow learn to write with his left hand. He wants enter the deaths of Mandon Moore and Preston Greenfield and acknowledges that he'll even have to devote some space to the brief service of the Hound. He also wants to start new pages for Balon Swann, Loras Tyrell, and Osmund Kettleblack. 

Jaime reads about Ser Barristan Selmy and sees that Barristan started out as a squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Barristan earned his nickname when he was just ten years old after competing in a tourney as a mystery knight. Barristan was knighted at the age of sixteen by Aegon V after defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall in a tourney. Barristan also killed Maelys the Monstrous, the last of the Blackfyre pretenders, in single combat. Barristan joined the Kingsguard at the age of twenty three and went on to accomplish all kinds of honorable deeds.

Jaime sees how few accomplishments he has in comparison to Barristan and thinks about the fights and tourneys he participated in that Arthur Dayne and Barristan didn't bother to write about. Jaime thinks about how he wanted to be like Dayne at one point and wonders about the moment when the boy who wanted to be Arthur Dayne ceased to exist. He feels that somewhere along the way in his life he ended up becoming the Smiling Knight rather than the Sword of the Morning. 

Osmund Kettleblack enters the room and basically tries to pretend like he and Jaime are old friends. Jaime has a moment where he looks into a mirror and hardly recognizes himself. He thinks that he looks like an old man and no longer sees the guy who crossed the riverlands with Brienne. The other members of the Kingsguard join Jaime and Osmund with the exception of Arys Oakheart who's still in Dorne guarding Myrcella. 

Jaime thinks about the times in the past when members of the Kingsuard began to feud with each other most notably in the Dance with Dragons. He wonders if he'll have to worry about any infighting with this current group. He also can't help but think that Arthur Dayne would have been deeply unimpressed with this current group being members of the Kingsguard.  

Jaime asks the men why Joffrey died when they were all there to protect him and wants to know if Tyrion is guilty of poisoning the king. Trant says that Tyrion had the opportunity since Tyrion was the one pouring Joffrey's wine. Trant also points out that Tyrion emptied the remainder of the poisoned wine and asks Jaime why an innocent man would do something like that. Meryn Trant agrees that Tyrion must have known that the wine was poisoned, but Swann points out that Tyrion wasn't the only one who had the opportunity to poison the wine. Swann says that everyone was distracted by the pigeon pie and nobody seemed to be looking at the cup. 

Loras Tyrell thinks that Sansa was the poisoner and says that Sansa had a motive to kill both Margaery and Joffrey. He thinks that the fact that Sansa has run away from King's Landing is proof that she was involved. Jaime thinks that Loras could be on to something and starts wondering how Sansa was able to escape from the Red Keep. He's interested in getting Varys's opinion on Sansa's escape and thinks that there's probably no one who knows the castle better. 

Jaime informs Boros Blount that from now on he's going to be Tommen's food taster. Blount tries to protest but Jaime reminds him how easily he yielded Tommen to Tyrion's sellswords. Blount responds by saying that Jaime is the one who should be the food taster now that he's a cripple. Jaime acknowledges that he's unfit but still challenges Blount to single combat. Blount is angry but decides to decline, and Jaime is secretly relieved because he knows that he'd be unable to win against Blount. Jaime thinks to himself that the only thing that's really protecting him at this point is his reputation; people still fear the guy that he used to be. 

Jaime spends some time grilling Osmund Kettleblack about his background and ascertains that Kettleblack was a sellsword before he became a knight of the Kingsguard. Jaime wonders what Cersei was thinking to give Osmund a white cloak. 

Jaime turns his attention to Meryn Trant and tells Trant off for his abusive treatment of Sansa Stark. Jaime reminds Trant of his vows and makes it clear that there's a line in the sand when it comes to blindly following the king's orders especially when the king is a child. He tells Trant that the people he needs to be concerned about obeying are Tywin, Cersei, and his Lord Commander.

Jaime dismisses most of the men but asks Swann to stay behind for a word. Jaime brings up the fact that Swann's brother sided first with Renly and then Stannis before finally coming over to the Lannisters. Jaime wonders what Swann will do if his brother ends up going over to yet another contender to the Iron Throne. Swann says that they won't have to worry about that ever happening but Jaime points out that he has personal experience with having to choose between a king and his family. Swann eventually (and awkwardly) swears to Jaime that he won't become a kingslayer. Before Swann leaves, Jaime tells him to tell his brother that he should add a weathervane to his shield. 

Loras Tyrell is the last to leave and Jaime can't help himself from pointing out that he was even younger than Loras was when he joined the Kingsguard. Jaime tells Loras that he was better and stronger than Loras is and Loras replies by reminding Jaime that he's older than he used to be. Jaime tells Loras that he should learn from him and Loras asks if he should learn from Jaime the way Jaime learned from Meryn Trant and Boros Blount. 

That arrow hit too close to the mark. “I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold,” Jaime snapped. “I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one.”

Loras points out that all of the men Jaime has mentioned are dead and Jaime realizes that Loras has the same kind of arrogance and confidence that Jaime had when he was a teenager.

Jaime asks Loras who wore Renly's armor during the battle and Loras admits that it was Garlan because Garlan was closer to Renly's size. Loras also mentions that it was Littlefinger's idea to have someone wear Renly's armor in an effort to frighten some of Stannis's men. Jaime asks about what was done with Renly's body and Loras says that he buried Renly with his own two hands in a place where Renly won't be disturbed. Loras tells Jaime that he'll defend Tommen with all of his strength but says that he'll never betray Renly. He says that Renly was the king that should have been and feels that Renly was better than all the rest. Jaime wants to make a sarcastic comment here but refrains. He tells Loras that he still has Brienne in a cell and asks the knight if this is really the fate that a woman like Brienne deserves. Loras makes it clear that he's convinced Brienne killed Renly and doesn't see how Renly could have died with her there and others protecting him. Jaime points out that Renly and the other members of the Kingsguard were there proetecting Joffrey when Joffrey died. Loras says that there's nothing he could have done to prevent Joffrey's death and Jaime tells him that Brienne says the same about Renly. 

Jaime tells Loras that Brienne is still grieving for Renly and would have fought to protect him if she could have. He talks about how honest Brienne is even to the point when it does her a disservice. Loras asks why Brienne and Catelyn would flee if they were innocent of involvement in Renly's death. At the same time, Loras also admits that he has doubts about how Brienne could have had the strength to cut through Renly's armor with one clean stroke. He further wonders why she would bother putting on his armor if her intention was to kill him moments later. Even though Loras has doubts, he doesn't buy the excuse that a shadow killed Renly. 

Jaime encourages Loras to question Brienne and says that if Loras is still convinced that Brienne is responsible for Renly's death that he, Jaime, will end up seeing that she answers for what she has done. Jaime calls upon Loras's honor as a knight to judge Brienne fairly and Loras agrees that he will. Before Loras leaves he tells Jaime that Renly thought Brienne was an absurd person but kept her around because she didn't want anything from him other than to fight for him. Thinking about Brienne's possible innocence makes Loras feel uneasy about the deaths of Robar and Emmon so Jaime comforts Loras by lying that he would have done as Loras did had he been in the same situation. 

When he was gone, the Lord Commander sat alone in the white room, wondering. The Knight of Flowers had been so mad with grief for Renly that he had cut down two of his own Sworn Brothers, but it had never occurred to Jaime to do the same with the five who had failed Joffrey. He was my son, my secret son... What am I, if I do not lift the hand I have left to avenge mine own blood and seed? He ought to kill Ser Boros at least, just to be rid of him.

Jaime thinks about how Jacelyn Bywater wore an iron hand decides that he should get a gold hand to cover up his stump. He thinks that Cersei might like this and wonders about how it will feel to hold her while wearing it. He tells himself that his new hand can wait and thinks about all of the debts he still has to pay. 

[Lady S.]

I think Jaime's parallels with Jon Snow regarding youthful idealism and making lifelong vows to a celibate military order at 15 have been remarked upon by other people but Jaime also reminds me of Jon, specifically book 1 immature Jon, when he gets into his dramatic brooding like this. 

Jaime thinks that he lied to Loras because he compares Loras's response to Renly's murder to his own to Joffrey, but he should know that Loras wasn't on a vengeful rage-spree for his king but for his lover. I could easily see Jaime murdering his own men if Cersei was killed on their watch while he was still full-on madly in love with her. I'm sure there's some projection in seeing his younger self through Loras's cockiness but in that respect they're really more alike than Jaime realizes. (I know what Jaime was going for with the "There are no men like me." line, but I also find it hilarious that he actually loves to compare himself to other men.)

I take the last line about paying debts plural, to refer both to giving Oathkeeper to Brienne and the guilt he feels about Tyrion. Jaime thinking about how well Varys knows the castle is a hint that Tyrion's escape was already at the back of his mind, though he didn't commit to the idea until the last minute after Tyrion had lost both of his trials. He has his big impulsive moments but in other ways he's a slow-going procrastinator.

Speaking of Tyrion, even if he doesn't get a visit from Jaime like his show counterpart did it doesn't feel right to me that he's unaware his brother is there. Jaime may be unrecognizable but everyone else is still told who he is and his return to court should be big news. I can buy Uncle Kevan and Addam Marbrand not mentioning because they don't want to chitchat but I don't buy Oberyn keeping it a secret when this could easily fit into his general plans to mess with the Lannisters. "Obviously your crippled brother can't fight for you like I can but has he even been to visit you? No? Not once? Your family really is awful, not like my loving siblings, one of whom was brutally raped and murdered on your father's orders."

[Avaleigh]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Speaking of Tyrion, even if he doesn't get a visit from Jaime like his show counterpart did it doesn't feel right to me that he's unaware his brother is there. Jaime may be unrecognizable but everyone else is still told who he is and his return to court should be big news. I can buy Uncle Kevan and Addam Marbrand not mentioning because they don't want to chitchat but I don't buy Oberyn keeping it a secret when this could easily fit into his general plans to mess with the Lannisters. "Obviously your crippled brother can't fight for you like I can but has he even been to visit you? No? Not once? Your family really is awful, not like my loving siblings, one of whom was brutally raped and murdered on your father's orders."

Yeah, I thought about that too. I can't really buy Tyrion not looking in Jaime's direction and I can't believe that he wouldn't recognize his own brother since Tyrion is more observant than the average person. 

I liked how Jaime thinks that he looks old when he looks in the mirror but gets annoyed when Loras makes the same observation. 

Selmy joining the Kingsguard at the age of twenty three isn't a surprise but I still had that moment of 'Wow dude, no interest in having a life of your own for awhile longer?' I can understand not having members of the Kingsguard be married men but it seems unreasonable to expect them to remain celibate until death. I also feel like there should be an age where a person can retire honorably as opposed to it being an insulting idea. Barristan shouldn't have been let go of course but eventually age makes a person's body turn on them so what happens then. It seems like the idea is that it's preferable for a man of the Kingsguard to die once he's no longer as good as he used to be instead of bowing out and making way for a younger man to take his place. 

I also noticed that even though they're supposed to be the best and most honorable knights in the kingdoms, there are basically no perks. They aren't even allowed to have rooms with windows save the Lord Commander. I mean, what the hell? Windows are going to corrupt theses guys? Their cells sound no better than the cells of the Night's Watch. For someone like Loras who grew up in Highgarden, it would have to be a little depressing to think that he's going to be in one of those little rooms for the rest of his life. He's young enough now and emotional enough over Renly where he doesn't think that any of this matters but fast forward five years and I can't help but wonder if he'll think that he's made a mistake by joining the order. 

Show Loras didn't seem to have much in common with book Loras but it's hard to imagine show Loras being okay living a life without sex or luxury. I can't remember if show Loras joined the Kingsguard or not. 

Other moments I liked--

Learning that a member of House Swann was responsible for knighting Selmy. 

Jaime's weathervane comment about Donnel Swann. Made me think of Sansa in this past season of GoT. 

Loras feeling a little bitter that Garlan got to wear Renly's armor. Garlan is a character I wish the show had been able to include. I do wonder what his fate will ultimately be since he's one of the few straightforwardly good guys who's currently on Team Lannister.

Jaime's defense of Brienne and Loras admitting that there are some things about Renly's murder that didn't make sense. Considering how the rumor mill went into overdrive immediately, how is it that a rumor about Stannis and his red witch hasn't been started? A sorceress from Asshai is right down the road and people think it was some combined effort of two well known do gooders? I'm not saying it's what people should believe but I feel like the suggestion would have been put out there by somebody at some point by now. 

Jaime having the moment where he thinks that the man Brienne traveled with is gone. It's like he's at a crossroads in this chapter and is deciding which version of himself he wants to commit to being. 

*****

Sorry about the long delay, guys. I have more time now, so I'm hoping to be able to do at least three chapters a week possibly more depending on how the discussion goes. I really want to get to book four already. 

[benteen]

Great recap, Avaleigh!

I enjoyed this chapter a great deal.  A Jaime chapter, which delves into the history of the Kingsguard and features interactions with the various members of the Kingsguard, including a great interaction with Loras.

Ser Arthur Dayne was Jaime's idol in the books and they changed it to Selmy on the show.

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Selmy joining the Kingsguard at the age of twenty three isn't a surprise but I still had that moment of 'Wow dude, no interest in having a life of your own for awhile longer?' I can understand not having members of the Kingsguard be married men but it seems unreasonable to expect them to remain celibate until death. I also feel like there should be an age where a person can retire honorably as opposed to it being an insulting idea. Barristan shouldn't have been let go of course but eventually age makes a person's body turn on them so what happens then. It seems like the idea is that it's preferable for a man of the Kingsguard to die once he's no longer as good as he used to be instead of bowing out and making way for a younger man to take his place. 

Yeah, it really is crazy.  We learn later on that Barristan was heir to his family's home Harvest Hall and betrothed.  His cousin became the heir instead and married the woman.  What I find silly is that they and the men of the Night's Watch are supposed to keep their vows even when they are quite elderly and should no longer be fighting.  A King should be protected by the best fighters and sending older knights into retirement is a good idea.  I think the men of the Night's Watch would do better recruiting if their vows weren't lifelong.  Suppose you could sign up for a ten or twenty year commitment?  Or perhaps heirs could serve as squires beyond the Wall.  I think it would make it a lot more appealing destination to spend some time in.

On the subject of perks, it does look like members of the Kingsguard can at least compete in tournaments though I don't know if they can keep the money (the Hound still had his earnings from the Hand's tournament that he won) and they can even serve as Hand of the King.  So there are more perks than in the Night's Watch but geez...give the regular Kingsguard some freakin windows!

 

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Jaime turns his attention to Meryn Trant and tells Trant off for his abusive treatment of Sansa Stark. Jaime reminds Trant of his vows and makes it clear that there's a line in the sand when it comes to blindly following the king's orders especially when the king is a child. He tells Trant that the people he needs to be concerned about obeying are Tywin, Cersei, and his Lord Commander.

I remember this one.  Doesn't Jaime basically say "If the King wants to ride his horse, I expect you to bridle and saddle his horse.  If he wants you to kill his horse, talk to me about."?

I always found it odd that Jaime didn't visit Tyrion sooner and I agree that Tyrion would have noticed him at some point.

[Avaleigh]

15 minutes ago, benteen said:

Ser Arthur Dayne was Jaime's idol in the books and they changed it to Selmy on the show.

Yeah, it really is crazy.  We learn later on that Barristan was heir to his family's home Harvest Hall and betrothed.  His cousin became the heir instead and married the woman.  What I find silly is that they and the men of the Night's Watch are supposed to keep their vows even when they are quite elderly and should no longer be fighting.  A King should be protected by the best fighters and sending older knights into retirement is a good idea.  I think the men of the Night's Watch would do better recruiting if their vows weren't lifelong.  Suppose you could sign up for a ten or twenty year commitment?  Or perhaps heirs could serve as squires beyond the Wall.  I think it would make it a lot more appealing destination to spend some time in.

On the subject of perks, it does look like members of the Kingsguard can at least compete in tournaments though I don't know if they can keep the money (the Hound still had his earnings from the Hand's tournament that he won) and they can even serve as Hand of the King.  So there are more perks than in the Night's Watch but geez...give the regular Kingsguard some freakin windows!

 

I remember this one.  Doesn't Jaime basically say "If the King wants to ride his horse, I expect you to bridle and saddle his horse.  If he wants you to kill his horse, talk to me about."?

I always found it odd that Jaime didn't visit Tyrion sooner and I agree that Tyrion would have noticed him at some point.

On the show, who does Jaime tell about his idol being Barristan? Is it something he says to Brienne? I can't recall the scene. I had the impression that Barristan had high hopes for Jaime in the beginning until Aerys's death. I feel like Barristan's disappointment in Jaime there was like paternal disappointment. Is there anything worse than having a parent (or idol) be disappointed in you? 

Yeah, I don't think that these orders are well thought out at all. There are a lot of silly things about the Kingsguard. Like keeping to the number seven. You have one of the Kingsguard who isn't protecting the king at all because he's with Myrcella. It doesn't mean that Myrcella doesn't deserve one of the best protectors, but why not fill the empty slot in KL? It's so stupid. They could even fill it temporarily if the idea is for Arys and Myrcella to eventually come back to King's Landing. 

Yes, Jaime gives the horse analogy when he's explaining what it means to obey the king's orders. I think that some part of Jaime understands that Meryn Trant probably didn't mind obeying the king's orders when it came to beating Sansa. 

At least Kettleblack seems like he can fight. It's still a mystery to me how Trant and Blount ended up on the Kingsguard in the first place. Was Selmy not allowed to weigh in? 

I was surprised that Blount had the balls to tell Jaime that he's the one who should be the food taster between the two of them. I feel like there's no way he'd have had the nerve to take that tone with Jaime if Tywin had been in the room. 

[nodorothyparker]

I like this chapter in how for all of the general hero worship for Kingsguards past we've seen scattered throughout the series, it shows it's really not all that much better than that other lifetime gig with few perks at the Wall beyond at least getting to do it in a more temperate climate.  They can dress it up all they want with talk of honor and purity and pages in the White Book to record their great deeds, but it's still mostly glorified guard duty that as in the case of Jaime and as we learn Selmy too you have to give up an awful lot for.

It's telling that Jaime even asking questions about what happened at the purple wedding makes these guys uncomfortable.  Tyrion is actively on trial and the guilty verdict is such a foregone conclusion to them and seemingly everybody that their answers read like none of them had even considered the possibility that the official narrative Cersei had built might not be the correct one.  They're sitting around speculating that Sansa may have had something to do with it or even is the real killer, but can't find her so oh well.  The notion that Tyrion might actually be innocent and thus shouldn't be staring down a possible death sentence only occurs to Jaime.

I too am a little surprised throughout that Jaime and Tyrion never see each other.  That detail is thrown in there with Jaime's general list of complaints about how his own reflection is foreign to him, his clothes don't fit him anymore, and no one seems to recognize him.   Which I agree that last one does seem odd in that his return isn't treated as a much bigger deal, but it could be another indicator of how many new people are hanging around the court now who wouldn't have been there during Robert's reign when he was there last.  I know George is saving the Jaime-Tyrion meeting for the big "and Moon Boy too for all I know" reveal but I actually prefer the show version of most of the trial, including that Jaime at least went to see Tyrion and hear for himself what he had to say.  But then I've also really liked the show version of the brothers' relationship which is almost nonexistent on the page beyond being told that it exists and that they do care about and occasionally think about each other.

The initial Jaime-Loras exchange is kind of hilarious in how alike they actually are and as sort of a before and after picture of youthful cockiness and notions of honor.  As Jaime's rhapsodizing on about the late greats of the Kingsguard he served with, you really want to pull him aside and say "Dude, if you don't want him to think you an old washed up has been, maybe lay off the back in my day everyone was stronger and faster and better looking anecdotes."  I do like Jaime knowing Brienne well enough and believing in her enough despite what he's acknowledged is a patently ridiculous story of Renly being murdered by a shadow to patiently reason Loras through why she isn't Renly's killer deserving punishment.  That really only works if Loras is as capable of responding to honor as he is and Jaime recognizes that in him.

It's funny how nearly all of our characters who have any dealings with any of the Kettleblacks never have any idea of where they came from or how they came to rise in importance.  Jaime at least pegs Osmund as a former common sellsword but still can't quite put the pieces together on what value Cersei finds in him.

[glowbug]

So glad these recaps are back. Thanks Avaleigh for the summaries. I think it's perfect that we took a break during the season and now we can spend our very long wait for season 8 rereading (or reading your recaps of) the books.

I don't have much to add to what others have said. I'm saving my Jaime/Tyrion relationship comments for Tyrion's last chapter of the book. I'll have much to say then. 

[Avaleigh]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I too am a little surprised throughout that Jaime and Tyrion never see each other.  That detail is thrown in there with Jaime's general list of complaints about how his own reflection is foreign to him, his clothes don't fit him anymore, and no one seems to recognize him.   Which I agree that last one does seem odd in that his return isn't treated as a much bigger deal, but it could be another indicator of how many new people are hanging around the court now who wouldn't have been there during Robert's reign when he was there last.  I know George is saving the Jaime-Tyrion meeting for the big "and Moon Boy too for all I know" reveal but I actually prefer the show version of most of the trial, including that Jaime at least went to see Tyrion and hear for himself what he had to say.  But then I've also really liked the show version of the brothers' relationship which is almost nonexistent on the page beyond being told that it exists and that they do care about and occasionally think about each other.

For some reason the detail about his clothes not fitting him reminds me of how Ned came to KL and had to wear some other guy's clothes during his first meeting as Hand of the King. 

The theme of identity and what it means to a person is explored so well in these books. 

I'd forgotten the detail about Barristan killing the last of the blackfyre pretenders. It makes me wonder how book Barristan will respond to hearing that Aegon/Faegon is alive. Will he believe it? Will he feel that he has a duty to protect this kid as well? Will he suspect that Aegon is a Blackfyre after all or maybe a fake altogether? Apart from Dany's reaction to the Aegon news, I think Barristan is the main character that I'm curious about in relation to this development. 

We don't get any Blackfyre mentions on the show, do we? 

In terms of fame, songs, and being remembered by people, I wonder if guys like Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower would be so well known if they hadn't been members of the Kingsguard? I guess for some of them that's part of it. Still, I agree that it seems like a lame deal overall. 

This chapter also made me think about what a pain in the ass it must be to keep everything perfectly white as a member of the Kingsguard. 

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

On the show, who does Jaime tell about his idol being Barristan? Is it something he says to Brienne? I can't recall the scene. I had the impression that Barristan had high hopes for Jaime in the beginning until Aerys's death. I feel like Barristan's disappointment in Jaime there was like paternal disappointment. Is there anything worse than having a parent (or idol) be disappointed in you? 

It's in the scene where he murders Alton, after they reminiscence about their squiring experiences (Alton for Jaime one time at a tourney and Jaime for Barristan), not that I want to open up discourse on that scene again.

On the Kettleblacks, forgot to mention that I love that Jan Brady moment of Osmund claiming he was knighted by Ser George Glass Robert Stone and Jaime noting that this knight could have been a bastard from the Vale or it could be just a made-up name taken from a dead king and the stone walls around them in that room.

As to your other question I don't think Barristan's approval was needed for his sworn brothers seeing as Cersei/Joffrey/Tywin appointed and dismissed several men in Jaime's absence. Certainly I can't imagine Barristan approving, much less choosing, Trant and Blount so I can only assume that was Cersei's doing too. We've talked about this before but I think the state of Robert's Kingsguard with Arys Oakheart as the only post-Targ recruit with any humanity is just part of Martin leaning hard on the scales for all that corruption in King's Landing for Ned and then Sansa to be trapped in. Even if we assume Robert was just that lazy and indifferent all the time and Jon Arryn was actually completely incompetent despite people saying he kept things running for 14 years, I should there should have been better competition just jostling to fill those 5 open slots post-Rebellion with Robert being seen as this popular war hero king. Renly's whole schtick was repeating what Robert did and he managed to fill out all 7 slots in his guard easily enough with everyone happy to be there. Those knights of summer had their own issues with jumping to trying to kill Brienne and those who didn't jumping over to Stannis and getting called out by Cortnay Penrose but at least they seemed closer to Arys Oakheart/Balon Swann-caliber (or the common factor in both kingsguards, Loras) than Trant or Blount or Mandon Moore. I don't buy that Jaime's kingslaying stained the whole group so much and no one wanted to join up and serve with him in the immediate aftermath. If it's such a prestigious and glorious appointment for a younger son, there should have been knights in the rebel army looking forward to serving Robert once it was clear they were fighting to put him on the throne, and that dream wouldn't go away just because the oathbreaker who killed the king they wanted dead was allowed to stay in the brotherhood with them. 

[John Potts]

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Blount tries to protest but Jaime reminds him how easily he yielded Tommen to Tyrion's sellswords. Blount responds by saying that Jaime is the one who should be the food taster now that he's a cripple. Jaime acknowledges that he's unfit but still challenges Blount to single combat. Blount is angry but decides to decline

Blount really IS a terrible Kingsguard if he isn't prepared to put his sword where his mouth is and challenge a one handed Knight (admittedly, he'd probably be dead either way if he went through with it - honourable duel or not, I can't see Tywin allowing the man who killed his son to survive). You have to wonder what political favours were being paid off to get him his slot.

It is funny to see that Jamie is about the only person who is actually concerned with finding out who really killed Joffrey (I don't think it's just because it was his son and the accused is the brother he likes), with the possible exception of Sansa Stark. I guess it isn't that unreasonable to assume that Sansa was involved (and she DID disappear with the murderer, after all, as it turned out). Still it shows that for all his bluster about being "Just a sword", he has inherited some of Tywin's intellect.

5 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

On the show, who does Jaime tell about his idol being Barristan? Is it something he says to Brienne? I can't recall the scene.

Isn't it in the cage with Alton Lannister before he kills him? He certainly talks about the first time he squired then.

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I also feel like there should be an age where a person can retire honorably as opposed to it being an insulting idea. Barristan shouldn't have been let go of course but eventually age makes a person's body turn on them so what happens then. It seems like the idea is that it's preferable for a man of the Kingsguard to die once he's no longer as good as he used to be instead of bowing out and making way for a younger man to take his place. 

The lifetime commitment really does seem odd given these are the guys responsible for the King's safety. You'd think there would be a way for them to honourably retire when they can't swing a sword any more (even if Barristan's forced retirement wasn't deserved, he seems to object to the mere idea, not that he isn't still capable). Are there tales of Kingsguards falling on their swords once they're too old to do their jobs?

[nodorothyparker]

I'm really stuck on how romanticized the Kingsguard is throughout the series, beginning with Ned and Bran, and then as seen with Selmy, Jaime, and even Loras when we've previously seen members either stand passively by while the king does terrible things or do terrible things themselves (ie, beating Sansa in open court) on the king's command.  And now this chapter clues us in to the reality that it's a pretty spartan life in a windowless cell cut off from title or fortune to spend a lifetime standing guard on the off chance that you'll get to do something heroic enough worth mentioning in the White Book.  Yet the highly romanticized public face is the one that remains both with the characters and with at least some of the fandom who love the Kingsguard's posturing at the Tower of Joy despite their questionable reasoning for being there instead of with their king and the fact that these were almost certainly the same guys who would have been standing around passively while that same king burned people alive and raped his queen within their hearing.  I'll agree that it does seem like that romanticizing still should have been enough to field better replacement candidates along the way than Trant, Blount, or even Mandon Moore though.

I love Brienne and Loras as the two characters we get out of it, but Renly's Kingsguard makes me think more of SCA or cosplayers than the real deal with their endless tourneying and rainbow cloaks and boasting about being knights of summer who will never fade despite never actually getting around to fighting an actual battle. 

[benteen]

21 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

On the show, who does Jaime tell about his idol being Barristan? Is it something he says to Brienne? I can't recall the scene. I had the impression that Barristan had high hopes for Jaime in the beginning until Aerys's death. I feel like Barristan's disappointment in Jaime there was like paternal disappointment. Is there anything worse than having a parent (or idol) be disappointed in you? 

Yeah, I don't think that these orders are well thought out at all. There are a lot of silly things about the Kingsguard. Like keeping to the number seven. You have one of the Kingsguard who isn't protecting the king at all because he's with Myrcella. It doesn't mean that Myrcella doesn't deserve one of the best protectors, but why not fill the empty slot in KL? It's so stupid. They could even fill it temporarily if the idea is for Arys and Myrcella to eventually come back to King's Landing. 

Yes, Jaime gives the horse analogy when he's explaining what it means to obey the king's orders. I think that some part of Jaime understands that Meryn Trant probably didn't mind obeying the king's orders when it came to beating Sansa. 

At least Kettleblack seems like he can fight. It's still a mystery to me how Trant and Blount ended up on the Kingsguard in the first place. Was Selmy not allowed to weigh in? 

I was surprised that Blount had the balls to tell Jaime that he's the one who should be the food taster between the two of them. I feel like there's no way he'd have had the nerve to take that tone with Jaime if Tywin had been in the room. 

I think the paternal disappointment comparison in regards to Show Barristan towards Show Jaime is an excellent one.

I wonder too if Jaime's loss of hand is what makes Blount talk so boldly to him.  I agree that if Tywin was there, he would have just sat there and taken anything that Jaime had said to him.

The Jaime and Loras scene reminded me of how badly the show botched Loras's character, who is far more interesting and compelling in the books.  TV Loras would have cut a bloody swath through the Faith Militant if they ever tried to arrest him.

Quote

This chapter also made me think about what a pain in the ass it must be to keep everything perfectly white as a member of the Kingsguard. 

This reminds me of a pet peeve I've always had about the Night's Watch....why do the Night's Watch wear black?  The black clothes must make it easy as hell for Wildlings to be able to track them during the day against the white snow.  The NIght's Watch should be wearing white...at least when they travel during in daylight.

LOL, I imagine keeping everything perfectly white must be a pain in the ass.  Maintaining that would be a great job for someone with OCD.

I'm curious too how some of these jokers became members of the Kingsguard (which I agree is really romanticized as they stand with a king no matter how shitty he is).  The only thing I've found is on A Wiki of Ice and Fire, just describing the post-Aerys members as political appointments, save for Barristan and Jaime.  It also notes that Arys Oakheart (who seems pretty good like Swann) mentions he's been with the Kingsguard for ten years, which would mean that one member of the Kingsguard was killed during the Greyjoy Rebellion.  I wonder who that was.

On one of the boards I used to go on, they had a thread entitled "Pick your Kingsguard" and almost everyone picked Blackfish to be part of it.  I agree that Blackfish on paper would be an ideal member.  Second son, great and renowned warrior...Jaime remembers visiting Riverrun when Tywin tried to arrange a marriage with Lysa Tully and all he wanted to do was talk with the Blackfish.  On paper, he'd be a great addition.  But just because Blackfish doesn't want to marry doesn't mean he's going to take vows to serve the King and only the King.  Family is important to him and he gives up his Gatekeeper of the Vale position in order to fight for his family.  Blackfish doesn't seem like a guy who wants to be tied down to anything official like the Kingsguard of the Night's Watch but free to do what he chooses and whom he wants to protect.

Edited September 13, 2017 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Sansa VI

Sansa is seasick during the voyage and keeps thinking about how Joffrey was clawing at his throat before he died. Her dreams are mostly about Joffrey's death but she also dreams about Tyrion and tells Littlefinger that Tyrion is innocent of killing Joffrey. Littlefinger admits that Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey but he tells Sansa not to feel sorry for the Imp and says that Tyrion's hands are far from being clean. He asks Sansa if she knows that Tyrion had another wife before he married her and Sansa admits that Tyrion told her about his first wife. Littlefinger says that when Tyrion became bored with his first wife, he made a gift of her to the Lannister guards. Littlefinger suggests that Tyrion would have done the same to Sansa eventually and gives this as the reason that Sansa shouldn't feel sorry him. 

They've arrived at the Fingers and Sansa doesn't feeling like going ashore. She asks if she may stay on the ship until they set sail for White Harbor and Littlefinger tells her that they aren't going to White Harbor. Sansa reminds Littlefinger that he said they'd be sailing home and he tells her that they've arrived at his ancestral home. Littlefinger sort of mocks Sansa for thinking that they'd be going back to Winterfell and tells her that Winterfell has been taken, burned, and sacked. He says that all of the people she remembers from her childhood are likely dead so she'll have to make a new home for herself. Sansa makes it clear that she doesn't want this place to be her new home and Littlefinger assures her that they won't be there for more than a couple of weeks or so. 

Littlefinger informs Sansa that Lysa is on the way to meet them because he and Lysa are going to be married. Sansa is surprised that Littlefinger and Lysa are going to be married and thinks about how Littlefinger was in love with her mother. It's been years since Sansa last saw her aunt but she expects that Lysa will be kind to her own blood. Sansa thinks about how beautiful the Vale is said to be and decides that living there shouldn't be so bad. 

Littlefinger tells Sansa that it won't be safe for her to go by her real name for the time being. He doesn't want people to start spreading the word that Sansa Stark is living in the Vale because it will create all sorts of complications for them. Littlefinger tells Sansa that she'll have to pretend to be his natural born daughter. Sansa is unhappy with the idea of having to pretend to be a bastard and asks if she couldn't be the trueborn daughter of some knight who was in Littlefinger's service. Littlefinger gives her the reasons for why that can't happen and decides that she'll go by the name Alayne Stone. 

The discussion turns to the game of thrones and Littlefinger tells Sansa that in King's Landing people are either players or pieces. Sansa realizes that she's been a 'piece' all this time and Littlefinger tells her that everyone starts out as a piece at first. He also says there are people like Cersei who think they are players but are really just pieces without even realizing it. 

Quote

Every man’s a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players.” He ate another seed. “Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him.”

Sansa asks if Ser Dontos was the piece that was moved to kill Joffrey and Littlefinger says that there's no way that he would have entrusted Dontos with a task like that. Littlefinger reveals that he was responsible for the Kettleblacks being hired by Cersei and let's Sansa meet the Kettleblack's father Oswell. Sansa asks if one of the Kettleblacks was responsible for poisoning Joffrey and Littlefinger drops enough hints for Sansa to finally figure out that it was the Queen of Thorns who poisoned Joffrey. Littlefinger asks Sansa if anyone made a point of touching her hairnet that night and Sansa remembers how Olenna told her that her hairnet was crooked. Sansa is blown away by this reveal and thinks about how Olenna talked of taking her to Highgarden so that she'd be able to marry Willas. 

Quote

“Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I’ll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery’s hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey’s nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure... whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell’s servants. That is how the game is played.

Littlefinger also admits that he planted the suggestion of Loras becoming a knight of the Kingsguard. He says that Olenna understands that Loras is as hotheaded as someone like Jaime Lannister and says that she knew that having Joffrey, Margaery, and Loras together had the potential to turn into a kingslaying situation. Mace is determined that his daughter will be queen and Olenna understands that a marriage between Tommen and Margaery is the safest option. Littlefinger says that it's only a matter of time before there is another wedding in King's Landing.

It takes eight days for Lysa to arrive and when she finally does, Sansa finds it hard to believe that this is her mother's younger sister. She thinks that Lysa looks at least ten years older than Catelyn and thinks that her aunt has a lack of grace about her. Littlefinger introduces his "daughter" to Lysa and Sansa notes that Lysa does not seem pleased to see her. Lysa asks what she's supposed to do with Alayne and Littlefinger distracts Lysa with some flirting and says that they can talk about it later.

Lysa informs Littlefinger that they're going to be married right away and Littlefinger is bummed out because he wanted to have a big showy wedding at the Eyrie with all of the big shots of the Vale in attendance. Lysa throws a tantrum and insists that she isn't going to wait a moment longer to marry the man she's loved for so long. Littlefinger tries to persuade her to wait and says they can have sex now and get married later but Lysa isn't having it. She wants to try her best to get pregnant right away and likes the idea of having a brother or sister for little Robert. 

Lysa and Littlefinger are married within the hour and Lysa's singer performs for the wedding party as they enjoy their feast. There's dancing and Sansa has the chance to dance with a few of the knights that Lysa brought. Sansa notes that Lysa is a good dancer and looks younger now that she's feeling happy. The bedding ceremony is next and Sansa thinks about how Tyrion spared her that humiliation at least. Sansa thinks that the bedding ceremony wouldn't be so bad if she would be going to bed with a man she loved and they were surrounded by friends who wished them well. The idea of having Joffrey participating in her bedding ceremony still makes her shudder. 

Sansa and three other ladies help undress Littlefinger and bring him to join Lysa in bed. Lysa is loud and over the top with her screams as she and Petyr have sex and everyone in the tower is able to hear them even with the singer continuing to perform. The ladies can't help but giggle over how loud Lysa is and even the dogs start barking at one point because of Lysa's screams of pleasure. 

Sansa decides to step outside and continues to think about her wedding to Tyrion. She thinks about how Tyrion told her that he could be good to her and how he could be like the Knight of Flowers in the dark. Sansa thinks about how Tyrion was only telling her lies and remembers how the Hound told her that everyone in King's Landing is a liar and that they're all better at lying than she is. Sansa wonders what has become of Sandor and if he is aware of Joffrey's death. 

Lysa's singer Marillion introduces himself to Sansa and starts talking about how beautiful she is. Sansa quickly realizes that Marillion is drunk and tells him to stop touching her. Marillion is undeterred by Sansa's protests and continues to molest her. He tells her to get out of her clothes before they end up getting torn and when Sansa says that she'll tell her father and that her father will hang him, Marillion replies that he's the favorite of Lady Lysa and Lord Robert and that he'd be able to destroy Littlefinger with a few well chosen words. 

Lothor Brune ends up saving Sansa from being raped by Marillion and tells her that Littlefinger wanted him to watch out for her. There's a moment where Sansa thinks that it's the Hound who is coming to save her and then wonders why she would think it could be him. 

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

The next morning Littlefinger tells Sansa that Lysa has been informed of her real identity and wants to see her. Sansa is relieved and Littlefinger says that they're going to leave for the Eyrie in the afternoon. He leaves Lysa and Sansa alone and Lysa takes awhile before she finally addresses Sansa. She comments on how much Sansa looks like Catelyn and says that they'll have to darken Sansa's hair before they leave. She instructs Sansa not to call her Aunt Lysa and makes it clear that she doesn't want any trouble from the Lannisters for hiding Sansa from them. She brings up the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion and Sansa lets her aunt know that she was forced into the marriage. Lysa talks about her own forced marriage with Jon Arryn and talks about how old Jon was and how he only married her because he wanted the Tullys on their side. Lysa also mentions how much prettier she was than Catelyn on the day she got married. Lysa says that she was hopeful that Jon wouldn't live long but unfortunately for her, he continued to live and Lysa continued to feel stuck in a loveless marriage. Even though Lysa was pregnant at least six times during her marriage, Robert was the only child who managed to live. Lysa blames her failed pregnancies on Jon and insists that his seed was weak. 

Lysa asks Sansa if she knows about Catelyn's death and says that she would never turn away her sister's daughter. She says that they are bound by blood and gives Sansa permission to give her a kiss on the cheek. Sansa thinks that Lysa smells like sour milk drenched in perfume. As Sansa begins to pull away, Lysa grabs her sharply by her wrist and demands to know if Sansa is pregnant. Lysa presses Sansa for details and Sansa is forced to admit that her marriage to Tyrion was never consummated. Lysa asks if Tyrion was incapable of performing and Sansa is too afraid to say that Tyrion was kind, so she tells Lysa that Tyrion preferred whores instead. 

Lysa goes into a rant about how she should have killed Tyrion when she had the chance and talks about how Tyrion tricked her and how his sellsword killed Ser Vardis Egen. She also thinks about how Catelyn took the Blackfish with her and says that the mountain clans have grown bold now that the Blackfish is no longer the Knight of the Gate. Lysa is confident that Littlefinger will sort everything out and reveals that she plans on making him Lord Protector of the Vale. Lysa encourages Sansa to trust in Petyr and to do as he says. Sansa says that she will. Lysa also mentions that Joffrey used to call Robert cruel names and once hit him with a wooden sword. Lysa talks about how a woman will do just about anything to protect her children. 

Now that Lysa knows that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was never consummated, she asks Sansa how she would feel about marrying her cousin Robert. Sansa is less than thrilled at the prospect but tells Lysa that she can hardly wait to meet Robert. Lysa admits that her son's health is weak but says that he's bright and clever and will be a great man one day. She thinks that Sansa and Robert should be married after they get the news that Tyrion is dead. Lysa thinks that it will be good for Robert to have a companion again and admits that she sent Robert's other playmates away because she felt they were too rough with him. She instructs Sansa to always let Robert win any game they play because he's the Lord of the Eyrie and suggests that it would be inappropriate for him to lose. She also makes it clear that she sees Sansa as little more than a beggar now that Winterfell has fallen. Lysa says that she wants her son to have a grateful and obedient wife. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

So Sansa has met her crazy Aunt Lysa before. That's a detail that I didn't recall. I'm guessing that Sansa couldn't have been more than four or five if she doesn't have strong memories of the encounter. I'm guessing also Jon and Lysa went to Winterfell at some point but I don't recall the first book mentioning anything about a visit. One gets the impression that it's been ages since Catelyn and Lysa have seen each other and Lysa doesn't say anything about having been to Winterfell before. Maybe they could have met up at Riverrun but I don't recall Sansa mentioning having been there before. 

Is it strange to anyone else that someone as vain and into frivolous things as Lysa wouldn't jump at the opportunity of having a big spectacle wedding for herself and Littlefinger. I can see why the idea appeals to him to want to have a big wedding but I feel like she'd be even more likely to take the opportunity to want to show off. If anything I can see Littlefinger pressuring her to get it done so that he can get whatever power this will give him ASAP. I get that she's impatient and impulsive but I feel like from everything that we've seen of her that a big wedding would appeal to her especially since her first marriage was such a disappointment. She strikes me as a woman who is permanently stunted in the emotional sense as if she hasn't matured past adolescence. 

I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little that Sansa's biggest concern about having to fake her identity is that she'll have to pretend to be a bastard. She doesn't seem that concerned about the lies and deception just the idea that people will think that she isn't an aristocrat. 

Of course Littlefinger would give the woman he wants to bone his mother's name. That's right up his pervy alley. I also didn't recall that Sansa participated in Lysa and Littlefinger's bedding. How strange that these people know that Alayne is Littlefinger's "natural daughter" and they still want her to strip her dad down and help drag him to bed. 

What would Lysa have done if Sansa had been pregnant? Tansy tea? Send her back to the Lannisters? Make her have the kid and use the kid for her own ends by keeping it as a hostage? I can't imagine that Sansa's well being was factoring into whatever was going on in her mind. 

I can't help but think that Lysa stopped loving her sister a LONG time ago. Whatever fondness and love she had for her is so diminished in terms of the resentment, jealousy and whatever other issues she had that made them stop having a normal sibling relationship. The fact that she thinks of her niece as a beggar instead of feeling sympathy and actively wanting to protect her as opposed to feeling forced to because they happen to be related is sad. I don't know how the Blackfish was able to stomach her for as long as he did.  

Sad that she doesn't think her kid should have to experience the feeling of losing. The other detail that was sad was learning that all of Robert's playmates have been sent away for one reason or another. Lysa is just as bad of a mother as Cersei is. 

Of course that asshole Joffrey would go around hitting Robert with a wooden sword. 

There's a bit of SanSan in this chapter. I'm not a shipper of these two by any means but I won't pretend that he didn't make a strong impression on Sansa. She seems to associate him both with being her protector and with sexual situations. Interesting too that she seems to care about what became of him. There aren't that many people in her life where she cares what happened to them. 

In terms of Lysa's appearance the show couldn't have cast an actress who looks less like this character's appearance. 

I liked getting the detail about the hermit predicting Littlefinger's future. I got the impression that the hermit might have said more but Littlefinger chooses only to remember the part about him being a great man. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got some prophecy that let him know that he'd be great but that he'd also take a spectacular tumble. 

This chapter makes me wonder about LF's ultimate fate in the books even more now that we know

what happens to him on the show. I can't imagine that his downfall will be anything like what we saw happen in the series. I also wonder what become of Robert Arryn on the show since he was MIA all season. I always assumed that he would die before Littlefinger but now I'm not so sure.

[John Potts]

The way that Littlefinger relates the tale of Tyrion's first marriage makes you wonder what everyone else thinks of it. What Petyr says is the sort of mangled version of the truth that you would expect people to pass around (I expect Littlefinger knows the full story, but this version suits his purposes better). Of course, we don't know that Tyrion's version is any more accurate, but it certainly fits better with how Tywin operates.

Lysa seems to be one of those characters GRRM just can't seem to show any affection for. She's younger but older looking than her sister, absolutely desperate to be with a guy that doesn't care about her at all and her entire castle is laughing at how she's consummating her marriage. I don't know whether that's meant to be indicative of how much her marriage has sucked (at least compared to Catelyn) but you'd think she be given some positive traits.

In spite of avoiding her (Show) marriage to Ramsay, Sansa still can't go anywhere without finding another attempted rapist. And even avoiding Marrillon, she's still going to get inappropriate advances from Robert. Even if the long term plan is to marry Sansa to Robert, it's still creepy that he sees his potential wife as more of a mother substitute. 

[nodorothyparker]

Catelyn mentions in GOT that she hasn't seen Lysa in five years.  I think we've talked about it before in one of these chapters how the timeline of all of that doesn't really add up between the Greyjoy Rebellion nine years before and Ned remembering seeing Cersei with baby at the breast and when exactly Catelyn could have possibly seen her sister.  Lysa and Jon Arryn would have been in Kings Landing and not the Eyrie most of the time since Robert became king and from the way the Blackfish talks in the chapter about taking Tyrion to the Eyrie for trial, Lysa had just fled there shortly before the first book started.  But Sansa says here that she did meet her aunt at some unknown point when she was a child, so ... whatever.

I kind of love that Littlefinger's "estate" really is such a shitty sorry little pile of nothing, even if it's another reminder of how much of a ruthless climber he is.  It's a fair jump from that to master of coin in a society where your entire worth is generally determined by your family name that again makes me wonder about Jon Arryn and how much he really knew or understood about his underling.  As skeevy as Littlefinger is in his bragging of laying out the ridiculously convoluted plot to convince the Tyrells to murder Joffrey, I do enjoy his commentary on the various players and pieces in Kings Landing as he pegs Cersei and Olenna especially accurately.

Lysa is so painfully eager to permanently get her hooks into Littlefinger to the point of bringing her own wedding feast that she's practically a walking stereotype of every lonely desperate woman ever.  It actually makes sense to me that she wants to lock that up before anything happens to prevent it or he finds a way to wriggle out of it, just as it makes sense that he's the one who would want a big showy display of how he's finally good enough to marry the lady of a great house after what happened so many years ago with Catelyn.  I get that the bedding ceremony and all the lewdness that goes with it is part of their culture, but good gods, that had to be the most horribly awkward feast ever with Lysa's consummation screaming one floor overhead drowning out the music.

Not that being Sansa Stark has ever protected her much from horrible men being horrible, but beyond her superficial wanting of some romantic respectable pedigree is the certain reality that being a highborn lady is at least in theory supposed to provide her with some degree of shielding from ugliness like common singers trying to maul her in public.  Lysa may be harsh in saying so, but with Winterfell and the North in the hands of the Boltons and all of her family save Jon either dead or believed to be dead, Sansa is for all practical purposes a beggar in the same way the Targaryen kids were beggars at the beginning of the story.  A valid claim will only get you so far without an army or allies to help you make that claim.  Nice bit of paralleling other stories and foreshadowing of the huge reveal about to drop in Lysa commenting on the lengths mothers will go to to protect their children.

I'm actually a little surprised that even a distorted story about what happened to Tysha is so well known.  The fact that his embarrassing younger son once made an impulsive embarrassing marriage to a peasant seems like the kind of thing Tywin would have either paid well or threatened to keep quiet.  I suppose he could have decided to let it be told as another one of those "look what a badass I am" kind of things like the Reynes/Castamere but this telling pins the worst of it on Tyrion not Tywin.

The Kettleblacks really needed to branch out a little more in their naming practices.

[John Potts]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm actually a little surprised that even a distorted story about what happened to Tysha is so well known.  The fact that his embarrassing younger son once made an impulsive embarrassing marriage to a peasant seems like the kind of thing Tywin would have either paid well or threatened to keep quiet.

Too many people know the story for it to be effectively hushed up. I forget whether it was a platoon or a company of troops involved in Tysha's gang rape, but in either case it's too many tongues for the story not to get out. And given it's Littlefinger, it's easy to see that he's heard a few people talking (Varys too, no doubt). Nobody's going to repeat it around Tywin, but plenty of people will have heard something.

[benteen]

Littlefinger's shitty home!  I admit, I've always found the place fascinating.  It's such a small and insignificant place.  LF's family were quite the social jumpers and his father had to be good to get himself a Lordship and not a landed knight title for his tiny home.  I admit wishing we would have seen it on the show.

Another interesting thing is that LF seems to be on good terms with those who run his house.  His old captain of guards can joke about him not bringing him more guards and he seems to be somewhat fond of his old wet nurse whose running his home.  Just interesting little details.

Lothor Brune is one of my favorite minor characters and I like how he comes to Sansa's defense.  The Winds of Winter preview also has stick up for her in private too.  He's even got a thing for Mya Stone.  He's Littlefinger's creature but seems to have some decency in him.

Agreed that the timelines are really wonky and just how did Catelyn meet up with Lysa?  If she could meet up with Lysa, I'm surprised she hasn't returned home at any point in the last 15 years.  There seems to be a lot of these explained visits on the show.

Yeah, I think Lysa's jealousy and paranoia really turned her against Catelyn and that is appalling.  Catelyn did not deserve her shitty treatment from Lysa, who threatened her the last time she saw her.  Not Lysa sheds crocodile tears.

I'm surprised Lysa doesn't want a big, public wedding too to "proclaim her love" openly for Littlefinger, her obsession for more than 15 years.

I imagine Lysa was away from the Vale long enough for the Blackfish to have taken a long time to get tired of her shit.

[Lady S.]

On 9/13/2017 at 4:26 PM, Avaleigh said:

Is it strange to anyone else that someone as vain and into frivolous things as Lysa wouldn't jump at the opportunity of having a big spectacle wedding for herself and Littlefinger. I can see why the idea appeals to him to want to have a big wedding but I feel like she'd be even more likely to take the opportunity to want to show off. If anything I can see Littlefinger pressuring her to get it done so that he can get whatever power this will give him ASAP. I get that she's impatient and impulsive but I feel like from everything that we've seen of her that a big wedding would appeal to her especially since her first marriage was such a disappointment. She strikes me as a woman who is permanently stunted in the emotional sense as if she hasn't matured past adolescence. 

Of course Littlefinger would give the woman he wants to bone his mother's name. That's right up his pervy alley. I also didn't recall that Sansa participated in Lysa and Littlefinger's bedding. How strange that these people know that Alayne is Littlefinger's "natural daughter" and they still want her to strip her dad down and help drag him to bed. 

I think Lysa eschewing vain spectacle for once is meant to be an indication of just how desperate she was to finally lock Petyr down. The man's been leading her on for several years, and she's been a widow for a while at this point. And when he finally came to woo her he left her again to go snatch Sansa, without even explaining all that until after the wedding. In her mind she'd been waiting for her love the majority of her life, ever since they were kids at Riverrun. She knows on some level that he doesn't care for her the way she does for him, and her insecurity probably had her afraid the wedding would never happen, rightly thinking that if she agreed to settle for more sex without marriage he could keep on putting off the wedding as long as he wanted. A big ceremony could take a long time to get everything ready, after all. They probably would have had a big gaudy celebration if Littlefinger hadn't felt the need for a detour back to King's Landing to get Sansa. And of course Lysa made

I wonder if his mother even was named Alayne or if he just said that because Sansa wanted to use her own mother's name. Either way it helps his performance as a regular human aristocrat with a daughter. Plenty of nobles name their children after relatives, so a cover story incorporating that makes him seems normal enough and helps sell the lie. If it actually was his mother's name and that's common knowledge then that knowledge adds more credence to the idea that this bastard no one else has ever heard about before actually is his daughter. 

 I love getting to know about Baelish's background and his story about the hermit. You can almost admire his rise if he weren't such a creep toward women, to the point of having a 12yo trained as a sex slave.

Littlefinger isn't a reliable source in most cases but his explanation of the Purple Wedding is perfectly sound, and there probably wouldn't be any doubt if it came from another character. (By explanation, I mean of the Tyrells' motives, the whole plot itself is still pretty convoluted.) It's important that getting rid of Joffrey in a pre-emptive move to protect Marg was also a pre-emptive strike to keep Loras from going after Joffrey himself if he ever thought the little shit went too far, which added a certain urgency to the situation. We'd just seen in the previous chapter how much Loras is like Jaime and he'd already demonstrated impulsive rage for the sake of love in the aftermath of Renly's murder. The difference is Jaime got a pardon for his original treason but those were extraordinary circumstances which wouldn't be repeated if any Kingsguard tried to harm Joffrey. Cersei said Jaime would have killed Robert even if meant his own life and I'm sure Loras would have been just as willing to throw away his own life to protect his family. The show pointed out another possible reason for conflict there in one of Joff/Marg's early scenes. Everyone always remembers the scene with the crossbow as her playing him like a fiddle and forgets that part of that performance meant being careful about denouncing Renly and explaining his "perversions". I doubt book Joffrey would be much more tolerant if he were to learn his brother-in-law was the secret lover of one of his hated traitor uncles. It wasn't really anything Sansa did that made Joffrey turn against her, it was that her sister hurt and humiliated him and her brother went to war against him. His next relationship could also get into trouble if he ever soured on his bride's family, and of course Cersei would have been doing her best to make that happen if he'd survived past the wedding day.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Jon IX

Jon can't remember the last time he's slept since the fighting started. He spends some time using the Myrish lenses to get a closer look at the wildlings and gets a glimpse of Dalla and her sister Val. He also looks at the turtle the wildlings have built and tells Grenn that the turtle will likely start to move on them later in the day. Grenn has had as little sleep as Jon has, so Jon orders him to rest for a bit while he still can. Grenn claims that he doesn't need to rest but Jon insists and assures Grenn that he'll make sure that he doesn't sleep through the fighting. Jon goes back to watching the wildling camp and notices Tormund and his sons putting last minutes touches on the turtle. He also sees Varamyr walking by with one of his shadowcats. 

Jon worries about their dwindling supplies. They're nearly out of oil and arrows and they've completely run out of pitch. Two days ago the Wall received news from Denys Mallister that Bowen Marsh chased the wildlings past the Shadow Tower all the way to the Bridge of Skulls. The men of the Night's watch won the battle against three hundred wildlings but it cost them more than a hundred men. Ser Endrew Tarth and Ser Aladale Wynch are among the casualties. Bowen Marsh was wounded in the fighting and it will be some time before he'll be well enough to return to Castle Black. 

Jon sends the woman Zei to Mole's Town to plead with the villagers to help them man the Wall but Zei never returns. When Jon sends someone else to find out what happened to her, he learns that the entire village has been deserted. Jon assumes that Zei fled along with the villagers and wonders if he and everyone else should do the same thing. He forces himself to eat his breakfast and wonders if this will be his last meal. 

The men of the Night's Watch focus their efforts on destroying the advancing turtle. The men shoot fire arrows into the turtle but the wet hides covering it keep the turtle from catching fire. When the turtle gets closer to the Wall, the men are able to successful destroy it by pushing heavy frozen barrels on top of it. All of the men are relieved for the moment and Jon thinks about how they won't be dying today. He knows that tomorrow might be a different story but for now, he thinks he should take the opportunity to get some much needed sleep. He heads off for the King's Tower and leaves Pyp in charge while he's away. 

Maester Aemon gives Jon some dreamwine and he sleeps for awhile before he's woken by four men of the Night's Watch. Jon doesn't seem to recognize them and the men order him to put on his boots and come with them. Jon is taken to the Old Bear's solar where Maester Aemon, Alliser Thorne and others are waiting. Thorne calls Jon a turncloak and reminds everyone that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard. Thorne tells the men present that Jon likes to go by Lord Snow and Jon clarifies that it was Thorne who gave him this nickname. 

Jon realizes that the men he doesn't recognize are from Eastwatch and thinks that the raven that was sent must have reached Cotter Pyke. He asks how many men have been brought from Eastwatch to help them but instead of answering Jon's question, Jon is accused of oathbreaking, cowardice and desertion. Jon is asked if he abandoned his brothers on the Fist of the First Men and Jon explains that he left the Fist with Qhorin Halfhand in order to scout the Skirling Pass. He goes on to tell the group that he joined up with the wildlings under Qhorin's orders because Qhorin feared that Mance was in possession of the Horn of Winter. 

The man grilling Jon is Janos Slynt and he demands that he be addressed as a lord. He also commands Jon to address Thorne as Ser and says that he doesn't want to see an anointed knight like Thorne being disrespected by a traitor's bastard. Slynt asks Jon if he had sex with a wildling woman and Jon admits that he did. Jon tells them that Qhorin told him to do everything that he could to fit in with the wildlings, but admits that he did indeed break his vows with Ygritte. Jon denies every becoming a turncloak and says that he returned to the Wall as soon as he had the opportunity. He also points out that he never took up arms against his brothers or the realm. 

The men from Eastwatch bring in the captured Rattleshirt and Rattleshirt tells the men about how Jon was the one who killed Qhorin. Jon explains why he killed Qhorin and pretended to join the wildlings but Slynt and Thorne are convinced that he's lying. Thorne compares Jon's killing of Qhorin to the way Mormont was murdered and suggests that it was all part of some larger plot. He wonders if Benjen Stark could be in on this so called plot and suggests that Benjen might be sitting in Mance Rayder's tent even as they speak. 

Jon shows the men his burned hand from the time he saved Mormont and tells them that his uncle Benjen is a man who would never betray his vows. Septon Cellador tells Slynt that Jon refused to "properly" say his vows in the sept and how he opted to say them in front of the heart tree instead. Cellador says that Jon worships the same gods as the wildlings and this is when Maester Aemon decides to step in to defend Jon. 

“They are the gods of the north, Septon.” Maester Aemon was courteous, but firm. “My lords, when Donal Noye was slain, it was this young man Jon Snow who took the Wall and held it, against all the fury of the north. He has proved himself valiant, loyal, and resourceful. Were it not for him, you would have found Mance Rayder sitting here when you arrived, Lord Slynt. You are doing him a great wrong. Jon Snow was Lord Mormont’s own steward and squire. He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I”

Thorne doesn't see promise in Jon and says that Qhorin's blood is on Jon's hand. Slynt says that he knows all about what it means to be betrayed by men he trusted and says that Jon's father died a traitor. Jon clarifies that his father was murdered but Slynt claims that Ned was trying to move against Joffrey before Robert's body was even cold. Slynt says that Jon doesn't deserve to die by a sword the way that his father did and says that a noose will be good enough for him. Slynt orders Thorne to take Jon to an ice cell and when Thorne takes Jon by the arm, Jon responds by grabbing Thorne by the throat so hard that he lifts him off of his feet. The men from Eastwatch pull Jon off of Thorne and Thorne tells the men that this is proof that Jon is a wildling. 

[YaddaYadda]

On 9/12/2017 at 3:12 PM, Avaleigh said:

I'd forgotten the detail about Barristan killing the last of the blackfyre pretenders. It makes me wonder how book Barristan will respond to hearing that Aegon/Faegon is alive. Will he believe it? Will he feel that he has a duty to protect this kid as well? Will he suspect that Aegon is a Blackfyre after all or maybe a fake altogether? Apart from Dany's reaction to the Aegon news, I think Barristan is the main character that I'm curious about in relation to this development. 

In terms of fame, songs, and being remembered by people, I wonder if guys like Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower would be so well known if they hadn't been members of the Kingsguard? I guess for some of them that's part of it. Still, I agree that it seems like a lame deal overall. 

I am very much looking forward to Barristan's POV about Aegon, so I'm really hoping he will not die before he finds out about him or Jon. I think Barristan carried enough guilt around and has said that had he known what had happened to Aegon and Rhaenys, he would have killed Robert himself. I think one of the things I tend to forget personally is the level of attachment Barristan may have had for the Targaryens. He has been around them the greater part of his life. He was knighted by Aegon and given his white cloak by Jaehaerys and probably knew Rhaella and Aerys since they were children and Rhaegar since he was a baby. I can't imagine any of this is going to be easy for him.

About Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, I don't know how well known Ser Gerold would have been known, but Arthur Dayne was the Sword of the Morning and at the very least, everyone seems to know about the Sword of the Morning and the extra sword. I got excited when I read The Sworn Sword and Ser Eustace mentioned Ulrich Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, then disappointed because I was hoping for more information.

The Jaime POVs are ones that I've come to look forward to. I love how much we learn, the lessons he seems to have learned along the way, and just delving into his thoughts. 

On 9/12/2017 at 6:41 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I love Brienne and Loras as the two characters we get out of it, but Renly's Kingsguard makes me think more of SCA or cosplayers than the real deal with their endless tourneying and rainbow cloaks and boasting about being knights of summer who will never fade despite never actually getting around to fighting an actual battle. 

I still don't understand what Renly was thinking. He died and I still don't know if the man was any good with his sword.

About the Jon POV. Maester Aemon will always be one of the best characters and always adds more depth to Jon's POV. Then there's out friendly frog-faced Janos Slynt. 

On 9/15/2017 at 8:28 PM, Avaleigh said:

Slynt orders Thorne to take Jon to an ice cell and when Thorne takes Jon by the arm, Jon responds by grabbing Thorne by the throat so hard that he lifts him off of his feet. The men from Eastwatch pull Jon off of Thorne and Thorne tells the men that this is proof that Jon is a wildling. 

I always wondered about that. Jon is injured from when he made a run for it, has not been sleeping all that much and yet he grabs Throne by the throat and manages to lift him off the ground. As far as I remember, Jon never displayed this level of anger before. When I read this passage a second and third time, I felt like this was what waking the dragon looked like.

Edited September 17, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Avaleigh]

I don't have much for this chapter. I was as surprised as Pyp and Grenn were when Jon left Pyp in charge. It also made me think about how Grenn bites it on the show. I hope Grenn and Pyp both end up living. 

I kind of side eyed Jon totally lifting Thorne off of his feet but like the suggestion that this is the Jon version of waking the dragon.  

When Janos came onto the scene at first I was like "Who is this pompous douchebag? Oh yeah!" I kind of forgot about his character. I'm looking forward to the "Edd, fetch a block." line more than ever now. Of course Thorne would quickly for a friendship with an asshole like that. 

I keep forgetting that book Tormund has sons. I wonder if they're all alive as of the fifth book. I can't recall. 

I like that Jon didn't like the idea of equating Ygritte with one of the women down in Mole's Town and how he owned up to the fact that he cared for her. 

I'll post the Tyrion chapter in a bit. This is a really good one. :)

[benteen]

Yeah, 15, 16 year old Jon lift Thorne off his feet was ridiculous but I like the suggestion of Jon waking the dragon myself.

That lowlife Septon though.  I remember him complaining to Jon about Satin being a whore and Jon thinking "And you're a drunk!"  I wish he would have said that out loud.  Jon was never really good with dealing with those kind of people when he should have.  Aemon, not surprisingly, sticks up for Jon.

I had forgotten that Rattleshirt was in this chapter.

[nodorothyparker]

I can't read this chapter without wondering do these idiots assembling some half-assed tribunal not understand at all that they're being attacked and more is coming and maybe now is not the time to be dragging a competent and mostly importantly alive man off the Wall?  I mean, the Watch members have got some great gallows humor going about manning posts with scarecrows and we're told that their already thin numbers were pared considerably in other battles.  Is Castle Black really that insulated from what's happening outside?  I realize Alliser Thorne thinks he has an ax to grind with Jon, but Slynt has been there maybe all of five minutes and done nothing but throw his weight around about being fresh off the boat from Kings Landing and snipe about titles and honorifics.  Maybe instead of fumbling about trying to explain his time with the wildlings to men who had clearly already reached a foregone conclusion about him, Jon should have been telling them to get their asses up on the Wall to see what was going on down below.  It probably wouldn't have mattered to these fools, but I still would have liked to have seen him tell them.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

I can't read this chapter without wondering do these idiots assembling some half-assed tribunal not understand at all that they're being attacked and more is coming and maybe now is not the time to be dragging a competent and mostly importantly alive man off the Wall?  

Hell, they could probably hear the sounds of the wildlings as they were interrogating Jon, seeing as the first line of the chapter is about how Jon can never escape all the noise, whether on the Wall or in the castle. Thorne just really is that petty. The fact that he would draw some connection between Qhorin's death and Mormont's murder and Benjen's disappearance shows that he doesn't even care what the truth is. (The mutiny at Craster's was clearly not planned and why would Jon even return to the Watch if he'd just reunited with his uncle in Mance's army?) It's also ridiculous that Thorne would mock the idea of Qhorin/Mance even thinking of the Horn with a snarks and grumkins joke when he was there when the wights attacked inside the castle. Honestly, that asshole probably wouldn't mind too much if he died in battle so long as he got his chance to hang Jon first. I recall in the first book that someone told Tyrion Thorne hated the Lannisters because Tywin sent him to the Wall after the Sack of King's Landing, yet here he is gladly buddying up to a proud Lannister crony just to aid his vendetta against a teenage boy. 

On 9/17/2017 at 9:28 AM, YaddaYadda said:

I always wondered about that. Jon is injured from when he made a run for it, has not been sleeping all that much and yet he grabs Throne by the throat and manages to lift him off the ground. As far as I remember, Jon never displayed this level of anger before. When I read this passage a second and third time, I felt like this was what waking the dragon looked like.

If you're thinking Targs have super human strength, I don't think that was an intentional hint. This is the same chapter where someone died from a wildling arrow on the ground. Not a giant bow-and-arrow like on the show, mind you, human wildling archers were somehow shooting targets (mostly scarecrow, but at least the one human brother) on top of a Wall 700 fucking feet high. GRRM has always had a hard time with the mundane limitations of the physical world. Wolf blood and blood of the dragon probably make for a dangerous combination, but I'd say Jon reminds me of his maternal family more than his bio father here. Rhaegar was never known for being hot-tempered or emotionally volatile but Lyanna isn't compared to Arya all those times just for their looks and horse-riding ability. The whole scene he feels very much like a Stark to me with his honesty and impatience for this bullshit. This is the only episode of questionable strength but I'd say we have seen Jon's inner dragon-direwolf be woken before like the previous time he tried to kill Thorne for calling Ned a traitor or in his earliest days at Castle Black when he jumped into a 4-on-1 fight because one of the other boys called his mother a whore.