Avaleigh February 18, 2017 Share February 18, 2017 (edited) Sorry for the delay, guys, I started a new job so I've been adjusting to a new schedule but this chapter really got me pumped to read more. I enjoyed reading this more than the Red Wedding and I guess it's because Joffrey is so horrible that it's nice to know that the universe didn't allow him to live to continue torturing people. What can Tyrion be thinking that he even entertains the idea that Joffrey would be seeking forgiveness from him? That made me lol. Garlan really is a nice guy. Not only does he go out of his way to be nice to the unpopular Tyrion but he speaks up and is the only one who has the nerve to tell Joffrey how rude he is. Loved Tyrion's thought about how perfect it would be to have a dove shit on him. The pie tradition sounds pretty unsanitary. Sansa speaking up about Ice and Cersei's conduct during the Blackwater was great. They were small moments but it definitely gives us an idea of her thought process throughout. Tyrion acts like he wants to make Sansa happy but he knows exactly what he could do to help her and basically refuses to entertain the thought because of his pride and his fear of his father. At least he had the sense to feel like an idiot when he asked her if anything was wrong. When I think of how all Sansa wanted was to have that singer stay at Winterfell and now here she is at a royal wedding where multiple singers are performing, it's sad but obviously understandable why it's impossible for her to take any joy in it because of everything that's happened. I wonder what Margaery was thinking about when she cried during the song about Renly. So even if Sansa had wanted to go with Olenna to Highgarden she wouldn't have been able to because she would have been arrested. If Sansa hadn't managed to escape I wonder what sort of trial she would have had and whether or not she would have had a separate trial by combat or trial by the Faith or court. It's funny that Cersei automatically assumes that Sansa was complicit when she always makes it seem like she thinks that Sansa is a stupid weakling. I don't really understand why Sansa needed to wear the hairnet and why Olenna couldn't have just been given one of the stones. Joffrey's death is horrible and I've always disagreed with those who think it was too good for him or that it was a drop in the bucket in comparison to what other characters have had to deal with. It's drawn out and he has the realization that he knows that he's going to die and is consequently scared as hell. It's painful, it's in public, it's undignified, and he's given no comfort to ease his fear or suffering. It's totally appropriate for the little asshole that he was from an early age and would have only gotten worse as he aged. Tyrion picking up the chalice and dumping out the wine was one of those moves that made no sense to me. I think the show did a nice job with the purple wedding. My main complaint was and continues to be having Jaime and Brienne present for it even if I did very much enjoy the exchanges between Jaime and Loras and Cersei and Brienne. I also thought that having the blood coming out of his nose and everything was a nice touch. Tywin's look of horror and Cersei inexplicably lashing out at Jaime even though he was only trying to help worked well for me even though I think the book version of her character likely would have called out to him to help as she called out to her father. Tommen's reaction is sad too especially now that we know that it isn't going to end well for him. I'm very much looking forward to the next Sansa and Jaime chapters. Edited February 18, 2017 by Avaleigh 4 Link to comment
Lady S. February 18, 2017 Share February 18, 2017 14 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Tyrion acts like he wants to make Sansa happy but he knows exactly what he could do to help her and basically refuses to entertain the thought because of his pride and his fear of his father. At least he had the sense to feel like an idiot when he asked her if anything was wrong. What is it that he could do to make her happy? The chance to return her to her family has well and truly passed (and was never really an option so long as Robb refused to exchange Jaime), and the marriage is also already passed. Even if he wasn't married to her, Tywin would have just married her off to Lancel or some other Lannister. This chapter is probably the last funny Tyrion chapter before his PoV just gets depressing and dark. I was amused by his discomfort as he needed to pee during the long wedding ceremony, his gradual drunkenness, and his multiple thoughts of Symon Silvertongue while listening to all the annoying singers, eventually thinking that if he has to hear too many different versions of the Rains of Castamere he'd go down to Flea Bottom and apologize to the singer's stew for not letting Symon perform. I also appreciate Garlan being a genuinely swell, gallant guy to Tyrion just as he was with Sansa at their wedding. "Absurdly grateful" is the phrase both Sansa and Tyrion use to describe how Garlan's words made them feel. Even with the Tyrells relying on nice reputations for their good PR, I really can't see any ulterior motives for the gallantry of Garlan toward the most unpopular and relatively least powerful Lannister. I've noticed there's a whole school of thought on w.org that this must just mean he was part of the PW plot, just trying to distract Tyrion so the chalice could be poisoned. That doesn't make any sense to me because they weren't seated near Joffrey, the chalice was only over there because Joff walked over to dump wine on Tyrion's head and make him be a cupbearer, which was a spontaneous decision. And Garlan was already being nice to Tyrion before Joffrey came over. However, Olenna and Margaery followed Joffrey and it never mentions what Olenna did after Joff/Marg went to cut the pie. I assume she stayed by the chalice and found a chance to slip the poison in. The particular regicidal wedding plot really is so convoluted, though. What I really don't get is why Sansa gets the poisoned hairnet way back in her last Clash chapter. I mean, obviously, it made for a good conclusion to the meetings she had with Dontos throughout the book, but in-story I don't see an explanation for why this happens before Sansa meets Olenna and Margaery. That meeting, where Olenna verifies Joffrey's true character, is meant to be the reason the Tyrells decide to kill him but LF/Dontos already had the poison in place with Sansa. So when exactly did Olenna and Littlefinger start conspiring together? Was he just already sure Olenna would agree to plot regicide with him even before she actually resolved to kill Joffrey? Or was she already considering it as soon as the Joff/Marg betrothal was negotiated and just wanted to hear the truth from Sansa to be sure? At what point did Littlefinger tell her that Sansa was the poison mule, and why wouldn't she demand that he just give some poison straight to her? Saying Olenna must have wanted to frame Sansa without knowing Littlefinger planned to abscond with her doesn't work for me because Littlefinger always meant for Tyrion to be the fall guy and Sansa would have been pulled in anyway as Tyrion's wife. If she wasn't Tyrion's wife she wouldn't be anywhere near Joffrey and the only way she'd be arrested is if every guest in the room was strip searched for poisonous jewelry or other accessories. And if Tyrion weren't arrested, then Oberyn, an enemy of both the Tyrells and Lannisters known for murder and poison, would have been the most likely suspect, as Oberyn himself later points out, and he'd be a much more plausible fall guy than a 12yo girl with no access to poisons who'd always been helpless against the Lannisters before. And again, it was Littlefinger's agent, Dontos, who gave Sansa the poison before Olenna arrived in KL, (and when Olenna did meet Sansa she wanted Sansa to become a Tyrell lady, not be their patsy) so the decision to give Sansa the hairnet and involve her in the poisoning must have come from Littlefinger. 17 hours ago, Avaleigh said: So even if Sansa had wanted to go with Olenna to Highgarden she wouldn't have been able to because she would have been arrested. If Sansa hadn't managed to escape I wonder what sort of trial she would have had and whether or not she would have had a separate trial by combat or trial by the Faith or court. I don't think Olenna's second offer to take Sansa to Highgarden was genuine, seeing as she's acting as if she disapproves of murderous weddings while getting herself some poison from the hairnet so she can murder a man at his own wedding. And Olenna has no intention of returning to Highgarden in a matter of days. She sticks around King's Landing until after Margaery's next wedding. (I don't believe she gives a shit about Sansa's losses or really expects Tyrion to lead another Lannister army anytime soon either.) In the unlikely event that Sansa wasn't arrested with Tyrion or that she was found innocent at trial or turned witness against him and therefore still had value as the key to the north, I think Tywin still wouldn't want the Tyrells to have that key. The original Sansa/Willas plan relied on the Lannisters not finding out that the Tyrells wanted to marry Sansa's claim until the wedding had already happened. Based on my viewing of hundreds of episodes of Law & Order, I think members of a conspiracy are usually tried together, (though of course in our world 12yos are tried as juveniles) but the Westerosi justice system can't even truly be called a justice system, so I'd think Sansa's fate would really just depend on whatever Tywin and Cersei wanted. 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh February 18, 2017 Share February 18, 2017 Regarding what Tyrion could do to help her (just to be clear, I didn't say that he could make her happy just that he could help her), I think the main thing would be getting Sansa away from Cersei and Joffrey. That would obviously be something that Sansa would want. The second step to me would be talking to her openly about her options and listening to what, if anything, she had to say once they're away from King's Landing. They could discuss possibly sending Sansa to the Vale but Tyrion could share his impressions with her about Lysa just so that she can make a (somewhat) informed choice. While it probably wouldn't be helpful to get her to Riverrun, they could maybe float the idea of reaching out to the Blackfish to see if he'd be willing to maybe take her away from Westeros altogether. Again, if this is something that Sansa would even be interested in. I think the main point though would be to get Sansa away from King's Landing and make an attempt to give her some autonomy regarding what happens in her own life. Instead, Tyrion is mainly concerned with the understandable lack of affection that she feels for him. I'm not blaming Tyrion for the marriage, I just think that there are other steps that he could take to give her hope that she doesn't have to remain a prisoner of the Lannisters. I had similar questions on why Olenna couldn't have just been given the poison directly and I'm guessing maybe it's because Littlefinger and Olenna wanted Sansa to be involved for their own reasons. For Littlefinger, it keeps Sansa feeling scared like she's done something wrong and feeling like she has to rely him for protection. For Olenna it gives them a finger to point to to turn the heat off of themselves. The hairnet would have been seen as proof of Sansa's complicity. I never knew that people thought Garlan was in on it. I agree that he seems like a decent man. One of the few guys in King's Landing along with Adam Marbrand and Kevan who seem like they're basically decent people. Would Cersei have really had that much of a say regarding Sansa's fate if she'd stuck around for the aftermath? I feel like Tywin would have been more inclined to maybe keep Sansa around whereas Cersei would just want to make her pay and wouldn’t see any value to keeping Sansa alive. I can totally see Cersei being angry with her father for thinking that there are better ways of dealing with Sansa than executing her. One more note about Tommen. He's just screaming and crying in the scene and there doesn't seem to be any sense of urgency in immediately trying to protect "Robert's" last male heir. I feel like his security should have been priority number one for all those concerned. Agreed that Olenna likely doesn't care about Sansa's losses. Tyrion had another amusing line when he wondered if Olenna's husband deliberately rode off that cliff. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker February 19, 2017 Share February 19, 2017 I don't get any sense that Tyrion is serious about wanting to make Sansa happy out of any notion of it being the right thing to do or because he genuinely wants her to be happy for happiness's sake as much as he thinks that if she's not so sad all the time and happier she'll be more amenable to him. He keeps trying to connect with her throughout the chapter as he has since their wedding and he's getting nothing in return. He understands on a very basic level why that's happening, but nowhere in his thought process is he entertaining her need to be free of the Lannisters (and him) entirely as an option. The marriage has happened and he still likes the idea of getting Winterfell through her, no matter how far fetched it might actually be. And Tywin would never allow it anyway. So he's just throwing possible destinations away from Joffrey and Cersei out there in hopes of getting some kind of reaction or encouragement. The purple wedding is just horrible from start to finish. It drags on and on forever with the ridiculous descriptions of an obscene waste of food in a starving city and tedious small talk and then all goes horribly wrong in the space of a couple of pages. I do love Tyrion's dry aside that "My own wedding is looking much better in hindsight" after Joffrey has thrown his usual Lannister spectacle of a bullying public tantrum and is now dying on the dais. As always, I'm a little nonplussed at how nonreactive Tywin is first at Joffrey so publicly humiliating his uncle, at Tyrion and Cersei trading gestures and dirty looks, and finally at Joffrey dying so horribly in front everyone. He acts like nothing unusual is happening right to the point where he very calmly tells Cersei that Joffrey is dead and she needs to let go of the body. For a man so obsessed with family and its legacy, he seems either completely tone deaf or indifferent to how they're coming off. It's good writing that can make me sympathetic to a character as all-around awful as Joffrey who's behaved as terribly as Joffrey has just a few pages before as he lays dying. Tyrion reflecting that he's only 13, he has Jaime's eyes, and he's dying knowing that he's dying and there's nothing anyone can do are nice touches. I try not to think too hard about what a twisted convoluted mess the regicide plot has to be for all the pieces to even come close to fitting or it makes my head ache. Because yeah, Sansa received the hairnet of doom half a book before she became a Lannister bride, back before even the Tyrells would have begun spinning plans to spirit her away to make her a Tyrell bride. The timing's a mess unless we're to believe that Littlefinger is really that much a master long-ranger planner that he was that far ahead of the Tyrells on top of everything else but the end result is all that really matters: Ensnaring Sansa to the point that she'll feel obligated to Littlefinger for arranging her escape and hiding her away so she doesn't get caught up in the regicide witch hunt. Tyrion telling Sansa you can never believe anything you hear in a song after she points out the inaccuracy in the song about brave Queen Cersei at the Blackwater is very pointed considering how we know she loved the songs in the beginning of the story. Interesting that Tyrion thinks about how Margaery could have married in a Baratheon cloak since she was Renly's widow but even he never considers that they're supposed to be keeping up the pretense that Joffrey is a Baratheon as he's draping Margaery in the Lannister wedding cloak. 2 Link to comment
benteen February 19, 2017 Share February 19, 2017 Great job, Avaleigh! I always liked Tyrion telling Joffrey that it was an honor to be his cupbearer and Joffrey flipping out over it. It was a good way to make lemonade out of lemons. This was Joffrey at his most degenerate and disgusting in many ways. I admit I always wanted to the righteous justice death for Joffrey. Defeated, renounce and beheaded by Robb Stark. Obviously that was never going to happen. Still, you're right that this is a fitting death for him. Painful, embarrassing and fearful. GRRM did give two of the books greatest monsters (Joffrey and the Mountain) agonizing deaths were they both suffered and I strongly suspect Ramsay will be heading towards one as well. Tywin didn't suffer the way Joffrey and the Mountain suffered but died a fitting and humiliating death, killed by his very own son on the toilet. He had earned that death with his treatment of his son. I agree that Jaime and Brienne didn't add much to the TV version of the Purple Wedding (which was very well-done) though it was interesting to have both of Joffrey's parents be the only ones to run towards him. Loras's burn about Jaime not getting Cersei is pretty awesome too. I like Garlan Tyrell too and he's one of the book characters I wish could have made it to the show. 1 Link to comment
John Potts February 20, 2017 Share February 20, 2017 (edited) There are a number of thing about Joffrey's assassination that make little sense - Why would Olenna give Sansa the poison only to reclaim it later? Who was intended to be the fall guy for it (the Tyrells/Littlefinger may have expected Joffrey to be a dick to Tyrion, but they could hardly have expected Joffrey to Make Tyrion his cup bearer)? Was Joffrey even the intended target at all? Preston Jacobs suggests that maybe the poison was meant for Tyrion and Joffrey swiped his pie. It does actually in some ways make more sense than the "official" Littlefinger version (see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkIczwc7Hz8) As for Tyrion wanting to protect Sansa - I give him some credit for that. He (almost certainly) thinks she is innocent and knows he himself is, so assumes he won't be on the hook for Joffrey's death, assuming Tywin wouldn't allow his heir to take the fall for it (that was due to Cersei's intervention). But it was possible that Sansa might be intended as a fall guy (Stark getting revenge on the Lannister King), so he might choose to protect her - not necessarily out of the goodness of his own heart, but because he anticipates being married to her for possibly decades (particularly if he really does intend to rule the North) and would probably prefer a wife who at least tolerates his presence. Edited February 20, 2017 by John Potts Link to comment
Lady S. February 20, 2017 Share February 20, 2017 On 2/18/2017 at 4:59 PM, Avaleigh said: Regarding what Tyrion could do to help her (just to be clear, I didn't say that he could make her happy just that he could help her), I think the main thing would be getting Sansa away from Cersei and Joffrey. That would obviously be something that Sansa would want. The second step to me would be talking to her openly about her options and listening to what, if anything, she had to say once they're away from King's Landing. They could discuss possibly sending Sansa to the Vale but Tyrion could share his impressions with her about Lysa just so that she can make a (somewhat) informed choice. While it probably wouldn't be helpful to get her to Riverrun, they could maybe float the idea of reaching out to the Blackfish to see if he'd be willing to maybe take her away from Westeros altogether. Again, if this is something that Sansa would even be interested in. I think the main point though would be to get Sansa away from King's Landing and make an attempt to give her some autonomy regarding what happens in her own life. Instead, Tyrion is mainly concerned with the understandable lack of affection that she feels for him. I just don't think any of those things are really options because Tyrion's own power and autonomy is dependent on Tywin and his standing as a Lannister, which is the whole reason he married her. I even wonder if they could go to Casterly Rock as Tyrion suggests because surely they'd need Tywin's permission. It's his castle and as King's Hand/unofficial king he's Tyrion's boss as well as his father. Tyrion's place is with his family and as his wife, Sansa's place is with him, that's why she needs outside help to escape the Lannisters, though Littlefinger is just a different kind of foe. Even if Tyrion could somehow get her to the Vale, she wouldn't be that safe with Lysa, as we shall see. The Blackfish is under siege by the Freys and has no ready safe haven by the time he escapes, so I don't think he's really in any position to care for Sansa. Jon is the only family member who really could but he's the farthest away in an active war and in an army which made him swear off his family. Tyrion could try better to reach out to her and he is being resentful and self-pitying, but I don't think there's any obvious way to reunite Sansa with her family or ignore that she and Tyrion are married for life, those circumstances aren't a fault of Tyrion's pride, nor do I think his fear of Tywin should be discounted with the very real power he has over his family and the especially abusive relationship he has with Tyrion. Yeah, he wouldn't have Tyrion killed just for sending Sansa away (if that were even possible to do without Tywin knowing what they were planning), but he would be very upset by such defiance and find some way to make Tyrion suffer, and he'd preferably find some 3rd party to use to punish Tyrion, the way he did with Tysha and Alayaya. Even Tywin looking "mildly amused" by the dwarf jousting struck me because unless Tyrion was imagining it, that was a very unusual display of emotion from Tywin. Mildly amused for Tywin would probably be like gales of laughter for a normal man. In a recent Tyrion chapter, he wondered if his father was even capable of smiling. I definitely don't remember cold, humorless Tywin looking not just happy but amused, so it really says something if this reaction came from an entertainment designed to humiliate his son. You'd think that as someone who hates both dwarfs and laughter, this grotesque show would make him angry and that feeling would not be mistaken for mild amusement. Sometimes Tywin has plenty in common with Joffrey and Cersei, so maybe she's not entirely wrong about being his true heir. 1 Link to comment
benteen February 22, 2017 Share February 22, 2017 Quote Even Tywin looking "mildly amused" by the dwarf jousting struck me because unless Tyrion was imagining it, that was a very unusual display of emotion from Tywin. Mildly amused for Tywin would probably be like gales of laughter for a normal man. I forgot to mention this. That had to hurt and anger Tyrion more than anything. His father never laughs or smiles and to see him even tease that at your expense....that's brutal. Agreed as well, Avaleigh that I have no idea whatsoever why Tyrion poured out the contents of the wine as Joffrey lay dying. This would scream "guilty" to anybody who witnessed it. 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh February 26, 2017 Share February 26, 2017 Sansa V The bells in the city are ringing for Joffrey and Sansa thinks back to how she saw him on his knees while he was clawing at his throat. She wonders why she's crying when she feels like she wants to dance. She decides that she's crying for Robb and Margaery and thinks about how Robb too died at a wedding feast. She changes into the dark clothes that she's hidden and when she takes down her hair, she notices that one of the amethysts is missing from her hairnet. She then remembers how Ser Dontos told her that the hairnet was magic and that it would help bring her home. Dontos arrives at the godswood and Sansa accuses him of being the one to use the amethyst to kill Joffrey. Dontos denies that he was the one to do it but acknowledges that magic was involved. Sansa continues to accuse him of being the one to take the stone from her hair, and Dontos tells her that they have to leave because people are already searching for her. He informs her that Tyrion has been arrested and indicates that Cersei is already convinced of his guilt. Dontos leads Sansa away from the godswood and she considers whether or not Tyrion might have been involved in the plot to kill Joffrey. Sansa followed unresisting. I could never abide the weeping of women, Joff once said, but his mother was the only woman weeping now. In Old Nan’s stories the grumkins crafted magic things that could make a wish come true. Did I wish him dead? she wondered, before she remembered that she was too old to believe in grumkins. “Tyrion poisoned him?” Her dwarf husband had hated his nephew, she knew. Could he truly have killed him? Did he know about my hair net, about the black amethysts? He brought Joff wine. How could you make someone choke by putting an amethyst in their wine? If Tyrion did it, they will think I was part of it as well, she realized with a start of fear. How not? They were man and wife, and Joff had killed her father and mocked her with her brother’s death. One flesh, one heart, one soul. Dontos is so drunk that Sansa has to assist him several times to keep him from falling. She notices that he's back to dressing as a knight and he tells her that he wanted to be a knight for this occasion. They climb down to a rowboat that's to take them to a waiting ship and just before the descent, Sansa thinks about Bran's fall. She's afraid that she'll fall too but tells herself that she has to be brave for Dontos's sake since she still thinks that he's the one who killed Joffrey. When she makes it to the ground, she gets excited and thinks to herself that she's finally going home. A man rows Sansa and Dontos to the ship, and Sansa and the man climb aboard while Dontos stays behind. Sansa thanks the man for his assistance and is surprised when she sees that Littlefinger and Lothor Brune are on deck to meet her. Littlefinger quickly drapes Sansa in his cloak and tells her that the worst of her ordeal is over. Dontos calls up to Littlefinger and asks for the reward of ten thousand gold dragons. Littlefinger tells Lothor to give Dontos his reward, so Lothor gives a signal and three men with crossbows shoot Dontos to death. Sansa is horrified and wonders if she's escaped the Lannisters for something worse. Littlefinger explains to Sansa that Dontos would have sold her out eventually and reveals to her that he was the one who sent her the note about going to the godswood if she wanted to go home. Littlefinger asks for details about the feast and tells Sansa that he's the one who arranged for the jousting dwarves to perform. Littlefinger says that he had to do a bit of prodding to get Joffrey to realize that hiring the dwarves would be the perfect way to irritate Tyrion and Sansa tells Littlefinger that Tyrion was arrested for Joffrey's murder. Littlefinger smiles and tells Sansa that widowhood will become her. When Sansa asks why Littlefinger should want Joffrey dead when Joffrey gave him Harrenhal and made him Lord Paramount of the Trident, Littlefinger replies that it's good for a person to keep their enemies guessing. He tells her to remember that when she starts playing the game of thrones. He brushed back a strand of her hair. “You are old enough to know that your mother and I were more than friends. There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me... but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine, not Eddard Stark’s. My loyal loving daughter... Put Joffrey from your mind, sweetling. Dontos, Tyrion, all of them. They will never trouble you again. You are safe now, that’s all that matters. You are safe with me, and sailing home.” 3 Link to comment
John Potts February 27, 2017 Share February 27, 2017 12 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Littlefinger tells Lothor to give Dontos his reward, so Lothor gives a signal and three men with crossbows shoot Dontos to death. Sansa is horrified and wonders if she's escaped the Lannisters for something worse. It's details like this that make me like Book!Sansa WAY more than Show!Sansa. For all that Sophie Turner says Sansa is, "Learning to play the game", there's precious little evidence of it on screen. At least here we see that she DOES realise she's gone from being in Joffrey's power to being in Littlefinger's and that last bit about how " There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world... How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine... You are safe now, that’s all that matters. You are safe with me, and sailing home.” sounds SO CREEPY and could only be considered romantic by a complete sociopath. 2 Link to comment
Lady S. February 28, 2017 Share February 28, 2017 What's interesting about Petyr's creepy lines to Sansa is his repeating the mistaken idea that he deflowered Catelyn. It's the ending lines of the chapter so I guess there's no time for Sansa to react to this assertion, but I don't think she ever reflects on it at any point. Is his talk of a gift a woman can only give once just one of those things she doesn't understand or forgets about? I feel pretty sure that if Arya knew Littlefinger claimed her mother returned his feelings and slept with him she would have reacted just as badly as she did to the talk of Ashara/Ned. I like how the path Sansa takes here from the Red Keep to cliffside is the same way Littlefinger led Ned out of the castle to the brothel where he'd hidden Cat in aGoT. As Littlefinger is trying to ignore that she is Eddard Stark's daughter, he's leading her by-proxy in her father's footsteps and is taking her to a region where both of her parents have been but would be more as associated with Ned, as he spent most of his youth in the Vale. What I really like about that passage is that Sansa is basically having to rescue herself. Dontos can tell her where to go, but otherwise he needs help himself. He's falling down, puking drunk and she has to help him stay upright. She thinks she has to protect him because she thinks he killed Joffrey but she's also practical about her own life, sending him down the cliff first so he doesn't fall on top of her. There's a lot going on with Sansa's PW tears and I don't think it's just that Sansa is so empathetic that she can't stand to see even her worst enemy in pain. Her "good heart" must be part of it, but I think stress and shock played a big role as well. She woke up that morning thinking she'd either escape or die trying making her tense and scared the whole day. On top of all that, what she was not expecting was to witness Joffrey dying horribly and painfully, a scared child in his mother's arms. That would be an unpleasant sight no matter how much she wanted Joffrey dead. And she's probably right to some extent that she's crying about Robb. He likely was on her mind after that dwarf show, especially knowing that he was murdered at a wedding. (I don't think she was right about crying for Margaery's widowhood, though.) The hysterical laughter she has to choke down and the numb, dreamy feeling kinda reminds me of Catelyn bursting into laughter after she fights the assassin in Bran's room and Summer jumps in to kill him. Tanda Stokeworth acts as if Joffrey jilting Sansa and marrying her off to his dwarf uncle instead would have stopped Sansa from crying at his death, (rather than him having her father beheaded being a big issue) even though she tried multiple times to make Tyrion her son-in-law. That says a lot about her regard for both dwarves and her own disabled daughter that she thinks Lollys/Tyrion a natural match but Tyrion marrying a pretty girl with no disabilities being wrong. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker February 28, 2017 Share February 28, 2017 What an incredible no man's land Sansa is stuck in throughout so much of this chapter. She's only dimly realizing she's just been made accessory to the murder of a king she was known to have hated. Her "rescuer" is falling down drunk and can't really give her any coherent answers while he's leading her down a dangerous cliff face in the dark, but she realizes she has no choice but to follow him anyway if she doesn't want to be scooped up and arrested for regicide. She's vaguely been told she's going "home" but she has no real idea who she's being taken to or where they're actually going. Then her rescuer is murdered in front of her while Baelish emerges out of nowhere to ooze all his creepiness about deflowering her dead mother and how she should have been his. No wonder she's wondering if she's only escaped one horror show for another. I assume she's just so overwhelmed by everything she's just seen and everything she's been through as a royal prisoner/bride that she's just crying about everything and latching onto to whatever crosses her mind to cry about. You can only hold that stuff in for so long and when the dam finally breaks, it's frequently about everything even if it's not really. It's telling that she's surprised to hear that Tyrion was arrested for Joffrey's murder, but she doesn't seem to have a whole lot of feeling about it or him beyond worrying that she'll also be held responsible as his wife. I don't know whether I'm supposed to find Baelish clever or tedious in his telling her that he masterminded a regicide for no real reason other than no one would have expected him to. At this point, I'm not really sure if he initiated the whole thing and the Tyrells tagged in when it became apparent to them that Margaery could not safely manage Joffrey long term or if he's taking credit for what they were going to do anyway because he threw the Sansa angle in for good measure. As we discussed the last time it came up, the timing with the magic hairnet of death makes it all so convoluted and dependent on everything going just so that I don't even really care. I'm good with Baelish and the Tyrells somehow did it as an answer and now here we are. 1 Link to comment
benteen March 2, 2017 Share March 2, 2017 We do get to see Littlefinger's home in the next Sansa chapter. The tiny, shitty nature of it has always fascinated me for some reason. 1 Link to comment
John Potts March 2, 2017 Share March 2, 2017 2 hours ago, benteen said: The tiny, shitty nature of it has always fascinated me for some reason. It's representative of the Inferiority Complex that has driven Littlefinger all his life. And for all that I hate Littlefinger as an individual, you can't deny his drive and ambition have taken him to being one of the most powerful men in the 7Ks (I still want him dead, though). 2 Link to comment
benteen March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 19 hours ago, John Potts said: It's representative of the Inferiority Complex that has driven Littlefinger all his life. And for all that I hate Littlefinger as an individual, you can't deny his drive and ambition have taken him to being one of the most powerful men in the 7Ks (I still want him dead, though). Agreed. It's an impressive accomplishment. It's interesting that we find out about his family line and that the men in his family all improved their social standing, with Littlefinger being the most ambitious of all. 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh March 8, 2017 Share March 8, 2017 (edited) Jaime VII Jaime learns that Joffrey is dead so he orders his party to ride hard for King's Landing. He thinks that Cersei needs him and wants to be there to comfort her. He tries to picture Joffrey's face but finds that Joffrey's features keep turning into Cersei's. Steelshanks Walton complains about the smell of King's Landing and says that the people in White Harbor don't have to deal with the same kind of stench. Jaime says that comparing White Harbor to King's Landing is like comparing Tyrion to the Mountain. Jaime is thinking about the accusations against Tyrion and finds it hard to believe that his brother killed Joffrey. He wonders why he feels so calm about the death of his son and thinks about how Joffrey went to his grave thinking that Robert was his father. He remembers how Cersei prevented him from ever holding Joffrey as a baby and how he basically felt that Joffrey was a nuisance who took up too much of Cersei's time and love. He thinks that if the gods were to give him a choice between having his hand back or having his son, that he wouldn't hesitate in choosing his hand. He reasons that he still has another son and decides that he and Cersei could always try to have another one. He also decides that if he and Cersei do have another son that he'll hold the son this time and be open about his relationship with Cersei. He doesn't seem to care about what other people will think and feels tired of all the lies. Brienne has distanced herself from the party as much as she can and Jaime finds himself feeling annoyed that she's been giving him the silent treatment. He even misses Cleos Frey a little and wonders if he should have let the bear get Brienne after all. The party reaches King's Landing and Jaime tells Brienne that she's fulfilled her promise. Brienne reminds Jaime that she also promised to bring back Sansa and trails off as she says this. Jaime thinks about how hard Brienne is taking the news of the Red Wedding and feels like he almost wants to comfort her. He tells her that the Starks aren't the only family to suffer unruly bannermen and cites the Boltons, Florents, Freys, and Reynes as examples. Jaime tells Brienne that he'll speak to Tywin about having her returned to Tarth. If she wants to stay in King's Landing, he tells her that he can find a place for her at court. Brienne doesn't seem enthusiastic about either prospect, so Jaime rides away from her after she gives a sarcastic reply about possibly being a lady companion to Cersei. Jaime isn't recognized by anyone until he gets to the Red Keep and speaks with Meryn Trant. Jaime sees the newest members of the Kingsguard and breaks their balls by pointing out that they've lost two kings since the last time he was in King's Landing. Ser Balon is the first to notice Jaime's stump, but Jaime is casual about the subject and tells Balon that he fights with his left hand now. Jaime is told that his father is in his solar talking with Mace Tyrell and Oberyn Martell. He asks after his sister and just as Balon is telling him that she's in the sept praying over Joffrey's body, Loras Tyrell spots Brienne and demands to know why she killed Renly. Brienne denies killing Renly and says that she would have died for him. Loras doesn't believe her and draws his sword as he gives Brienne the reasons he believes her to be guilty. Brienne tells Loras about the shadow and how Catelyn thought it was Stannis, but Loras doesn't believe it and tells Brienne to draw her sword. Jaime tells Loras to put his sword away and says that Brienne would more than likely be the winner if she's forced to fight; he compares her strength to Gregor Clegane's. Loras says that it isn't any of Jaime's business and tries to shove Jaime aside. Quote Jaime grabbed the boy with his good hand and yanked him around. “I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.” Loras hesitates but eventually backs down. He decides that he wants Brienne to be arrested instead and this makes Jaime take the opportunity to tell Loras that Brienne is about as honorable as they come. He also points out that if she had lied that she'd more than likely have come up with a better story. Brienne looks hurt when Jaime gives Ser Balon the order to escort her to a tower cell and Jaime thinks to himself that she ought to be blowing him kisses. He thinks about how people misunderstand everything that he tries to do and decides that it always comes down to what happened with Aerys. Jaime meets Osmund Kettleblack outside of the sept and demands to be allowed inside to see the queen. Osmund doesn't recognize Jaime and when Jaime says that he's the queen's brother, Osmund still doesn't believe it. It isn't until Jaime mentions that he's the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard that the lights come on for Osmund and he starts being apologetic. Jaime orders Osmund to make sure that no one is allowed into the sept, so that he and Cersei can have some privacy. Cersei is kneeling at the mother of the altar when Jaime comes in. She's crying and asks Jaime if it's really him. She doesn't go over to him and Jaime thinks about how she never comes to him and how she'll give but only if Jaime asks. Cersei tells Jaime that he should have come sooner. She tells him how different he looks and seems focused on how all of his golden hair is gone. Jaime shows her that his hand is gone as well and Cersei assumes that it was the work of the Starks. Jaime tells her that Vargo Hoat is to blame, but Cersei doesn't seem to have heard of the Goat of Harrenhal. Cersei tells Jaime that Tyrion killed Joffrey just as he always threatened he would. Jaime doesn't want to believe it and still seems to have some feelings of doubt. At the same time, Jaime wonders if Tyrion might have somehow found out about the one time where he wasn't a good brother to him. Jaime asks why Tyrion would kill Joffrey and Cersei says that Tyrion killed Joffrey over a whore. She kisses Jaime's fingers and asks him to kill Tyrion and avenge their son. Jaime replies that Tyrion is still his brother and points out that he really isn't in condition to kill anyone anyway. Cersei tells Jaime that it won't take a lot of muscle to take out a dwarf who's locked in a cell, but Jaime insists that he needs more details about what happened. Cersei says that he'll get all of the details about what happened at the trial. She tells Jaime that he'll hate Tyrion as much as she does after all is said and done. Cersei tells Jaime that she isn't whole without him and the two have sex on top of the altar of the Mother. Cersei protests about the danger of having sex in the sept and mentions risks like their father, the septons, and the wrath of the gods, but Jaime doesn't seem to care. When they're finished, Cersei thinks it was a dumb move and says they need to be careful especially with their father in the castle. Jaime is tired of being careful and says that they should just get married. He cites the Targaryens as an example and says there isn't any reason they shouldn't get married and have another son to replace Joffrey. Jaime says that Tommen can still have Casterly Rock and says that their father can sit on the Iron Throne. Cersei is disturbed by what Jaime is saying and tells him that he's going to cost them everything. She wonders what the Starks did to him and tells him that he's been changed. She thinks it's about more than having lost his hand and tells him that they'll talk later. She has Sansa's maids in a tower and wants to question them. She tells him to go and see their father. Jaime protests and tells her that he's traveled all this way to see her, but Cersei seems unmoved and tells him to leave her and to go and see their father. Tywin is alone when Jaime goes to see him and Tywin greets him as though they'd only just seen each other recently. Tywin hasn't been told about Jaime's hand and initially thinks the Starks are responsible. Jaime tells Tywin that it was the work of Vargo Hoat and Tywin lets Jaime know that Gregor Clegane has taken over Harrenhal. Jaime is told that Vargo Hoat was found feverish and delirious because of the infected ear wound he received from Brienne. Jaime thinks to himself that he can't wait to tell Brienne even though she likely won't be amused the way he is. Tywin goes on to say that Vargo isn't dead yet but it should be soon because Gregor has taken his hands and feet. Tywin asks Jaime if he can fight with his left hand and Jaime basically makes it seem like his left hand should work just as well as the right. Tywin is pleased to hear this and tells Jaime that he has a gift for him. Jaime says that unless the gift is a new hand, it can wait. Tywin tells Jaime that poison killed Joffrey and says Tyrion has been taken into custody along with Tyrion's squire and the maids of Sansa. Jaime asks Tywin if he would really execute his own son and Tywin says that if Tyrion is innocent then he'll have nothing to fear. Tywin moves on to the subject of Jaime serving in the Kingsguard now that he's lost his fighting hand and Jaime insists that a member of the Kingsguard serves for life no matter what. Tywin feels that they have some wiggle room based on what Cersei did to Barristan Selmy but Jaime makes it clear that he has no intention of bailing on serving in the Kingsguard. Jaime tells Tywin that he has a duty. Quote “You do.” Lord Tywin rose as well. “A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he’ll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead -” Jaime puts his foot down and refuses to be married to Joffrey's widow. He's sick of his family and all of the lies and he tells his father that he has no interest in being the Lord of Casterly Rock; he says he only means to be the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Tywin doesn't say anything for a long time and it's only when Jaime finally speaks that Tywin cuts him off abruptly and tells him that he's not his son. Tywin tells Jaime that if he wants to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard that he should go along and do his duty. Edited March 8, 2017 by Avaleigh 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh March 8, 2017 Share March 8, 2017 The possibility of Jaime and Margaery intrigues me almost as much as Robb/Margaery in terms of wondering how this would have changed the story. Tommen would have been much better off at Casterly Rock and away from Cersei, I agree. What I find interesting about this chapter is Jaime's admission to himself that if he had to choose between getting his hand back or his son being alive that he wouldn't hesitate in choosing his hand. Taking away for a second the fact that Joffrey was a little asshole with no redeemable qualities, what does this say about Jaime's love for Cersei? Imagine what she'd think if she knew that he wouldn't bring back their son if he were given some magical opportunity. This isn't something that I've seen brought up very often when it comes to the discussion of Jaime's love for Cersei. Another thing that I noticed was Jaime saying that Cersei never comes to him and that it's always the other way around. I can think of at least two occasions where she came to him and initiated sex. Poor Pod, going down with the ship. Is it Jaime's idea to put Pod with Brienne or Tyrion's? Has to suck to be the maids too. I wonder if we're told what becomes of them. I love Jaime and Brienne both feeling hurt by the other. Lol at Jaime wanting to comfort Brienne and thinking that horror stories about past Boltons wearing cloaks made of flayed Stark skin is the way to go about it. I liked too the way he misses her company in spite of himself. I'm sure her thought are similar. I do kind of want to shake Brienne every time she repeats the story about Renly being killed by a shadow. What's up with Loras calling Catelyn an old woman? Her youngest kid is like five years old and two years ago she thought she might be capable of having more. 2 Link to comment
Lady S. March 8, 2017 Share March 8, 2017 Y'know, Tywin's forgetting Catelyn is already dead (after we've seen Brienne grieving for her) is really the least weird thing about his conversation with Jaime. He wants Tommen to become Jaime's ward and squire at Casterly Rock?! Maybe he could have been fostered out that way as a prince, but he's the frickin' king now. Surely his place is in King's Landing. Even leaving aside that he's supposed to be a Baratheon, not just learning to be a Lannister, he should be first and foremost learning to be a king. Jaime knows what a bad king looks like but beyond that he's not exactly qualified to train a good one. Tywin, OTOH, an experienced King's Hand, could teach him to be both a proper Lannister and a stable king. Control freak that he is, why wouldn't Tywin want to more directly control Tommen's upbringing for the good of their family and the stability of the realm, especially after seeing how Joffrey turned out without his guidance? It's like he really does think he's immortal and can just be the power behind the throne forever, with the actual king being an afterthought. And there's more of that Lannister blindness, not caring how it would look to have a king whose paternity is in doubt raised as a foster son by the uncle alleged to be his true father, at their family home far away from King's Landing or anything else related to House Baratheon. The suggested Jaime/Marg match is more reasonable but also typical Lannister arrogance and Tywin living in his own reality. He's kidding himself to think the Tyrells would think future Lady of Casterly Rock a fine substitute for being the Queen, or that Jaime would be more eager to get married to her than he was to Lysa Tully. I don't think he has any real opposition to Margy marrying Tommen, btw, just that he wants Jaime married off ASAP. but being a huge snob and ambitious in his matchmaking there's few ladies good enough to marry Jaime. Marg qualifies as one of those ladies, she's newly single again, and she's right there which could make for the quick marriage he wants if Jaime and the Tyrells were only willing. (The twincest rumors must be getting under Tywin's skin on some level with him trying so hard to get Cersei re-married and out of King's Landing and trying to get Jaime married off and out of town too the very moment he's returned to them.) I don't want to re-litigate the Sept sex, but I noticed for the first time that Jaime actually has a good reason not to be worried about getting caught. he threatened Osmund not to let anyone through, but he doesn't even think to re-assure Cersei in her quite reasonable worries or listen to them at all. What I find interesting about his impatience is the idea that he always has to come to her, she keeps him waiting and only gives when he "asks". We know that's not entirely true because we already have the story of how she came to spend the night with him in Eel Alley, convincing him to join the Kingsguard, (and she tries something similar in White Sword Tower later), but if we assume that night was a rare exception and the majority of their affair was as Jaime described it here, doesn't that fly in the face of the popular notion that she was always manipulating and seducing Jaime and their relationship was purely her using him? It feels like most people take the Eel Alley inn memory as representative of their entire relationship, instead of how Jaime actually characterizes that night and the rest of their affair. Of course, we later have the memory of her screaming for Arya's blood during sex, but I think it unlikely she was in the habit of making demands like that mid-coitus. Most of the time I assume both of them were just caught up in the joys of twincest without Jaime paying any price for the sex. Which is consistent with the sept sex, where she tried to get him to kill Tyrion before anything sexual happened, he refused, they had sex anyway, and Cersei got no transactional benefit from it. All of which isn't to say that Cersei doesn't mistreat and use Jaime, because of course she does. She expects them to be equal parents avenging Joffrey, but basically used Jaime as a sperm donor until then. In retrospect, her reasoning for not even letting him hold a baby sounds pretty suspect imo. "Bad enough Joff looks like you"? It's not like there was any chance of him not having the Lannister look with her fucking her twin instead of Robert or anyone who looked like Robert. Obviously they didn't expect the kids taking after their mother's side to be a problem until Stannis made it so, because if that was a concern she wouldn't have purposely cuckolded Robert with Jaime in the first place. And would it really look so bad for an uncle to hold his nephew? People like holding babies, like "mooning" over them, especially when you're related to the baby, you don't have to be a parent to do that. If no one saw anything odd in Jaime forcing his way into the birthing room, I doubt him holding his newborn nephew (or later niece) would suddenly set off alarm bells. Jaime's starting to get that their relationship has been unfair, but jumping to wanting to come out of the incest closet, get married like Targs, and let Tommen be Jaime's heir to Casterly Rock while Tywin takes the throne in truth is not a solution. Keeping their affair "secret" and lying to everyone are contributing factors to the dysfunction of their relationship, but not the whole problem. 4 minutes ago, Avaleigh said: Poor Pod, going down with the ship. Is it Jaime's idea to put Pod with Brienne or Tyrion's? Has to suck to be the maids too. I wonder if we're told what becomes of them. What's up with Loras calling Catelyn an old woman? Her youngest kid is like five years old and two years ago she thought she might be capable of having more. Book Pod finds Bri on his own because he heard she was looking for his lord's wife. We know what happened to one of Sansa's maids, Shae, I'm guessing the other one got out okay after the trial(s) like Pod did. I don't think Loras thought she was elderly but I guess any lady in her mid-30s would be too old to matter to a teenage knight of summer. 31 minutes ago, Avaleigh said: What I find interesting about this chapter is Jaime's admission to himself that if he had to choose between getting his hand back or his son being alive that he wouldn't hesitate in choosing his hand. Taking away for a second the fact that Joffrey was a little asshole with no redeemable qualities, what does this say about Jaime's love for Cersei? Imagine what she'd think if she knew that he wouldn't bring back their son if he were given some magical opportunity. This isn't something that I've seen brought up very often when it comes to the discussion of Jaime's love for Cersei. I think a private admission really says more about Jaime's feelings for Joffrey than Cersei, but when he is with Cersei I wouldn't say he really empathizes with her grief or does much to comfort her. Or if he's trying to do that, he's doing a shitty job of it imo. Shouldn't he be better at comforting his twin, who has always turned to him for comfort, than he is at comforting Brienne? It makes it feel like his haste at the start of the chapter was like excitement about Cersei needing him more than concern for how bad she must be feeling. I always thought it was glaring that Jaime doesn't think of Joffrey's shittiness as a reason he doesn't feel any real grief at his death, but now I'm thinking that's because a lot of Joff's shittiness was down to how Cersei raised him. Admitting that he found Joff unloveable that way would mean confronting what it said about Cersei that he was her favorite child, and mostly her creation. Jaime's not ready to deal with how bad Cersei and House Lannister as a whole is, so he just thinks the issue was Robert being Joff's official father, as if he couldn't have felt a loss as an uncle who lived with Cersei's children for most of their lives. If Joffrey being Joffrey was really the issue, he probably would have felt differently if it had been Tommen or Myrcella, who I imagine he had a better relationship with as an uncle. Sorry, this turned into such a long post, even for me. I was already well into it when I saw your post come up. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker March 8, 2017 Share March 8, 2017 6 hours ago, Lady S. said: What I find interesting about his impatience is the idea that he always has to come to her, she keeps him waiting and only gives when he "asks". We know that's not entirely true because we already have the story of how she came to spend the night with him in Eel Alley, convincing him to join the Kingsguard, (and she tries something similar in White Sword Tower later), but if we assume that night was a rare exception and the majority of their affair was as Jaime described it here, doesn't that fly in the face of the popular notion that she was always manipulating and seducing Jaime and their relationship was purely her using him? It feels like most people take the Eel Alley inn memory as representative of their entire relationship, instead of how Jaime actually characterizes that night and the rest of their affair. Still working my way through this chapter but I've always read this and the two times we know of where she tried to manipulate him with sex (Eel Alley and the White Sword Tower) as those were the two times where she didn't feel like she could wait around for him to come to her. Otherwise a lot of her control in the relationship is in being withholding and really playing up the forbidden fruit angle of it. Sure, some of that's going to happen naturally in their situation where she is the queen married to another man and what they're doing is both incestuous and treason. But I've always thought that had they been Targaryens and been allowed to have that relationship out in the open or under different circumstances had it just been able to run its course without all the Romeo and Juliet style danger and desperation, that there probably would have been a point where Jaime did see that he wasn't getting much out of it. He's the one giving up his inheritance and any sort of normal life to be a glorified body guard and sperm donor and telling himself that it's a fair trade off. Despite all his protestations that he didn't want to be lord of Casterly Rock or all of the trapping that come with it, we get in his delusional musings about chucking the Lannister hold on the throne to marry Cersei that he thinks he'd be happy enough to settle into that life if he could marry her and make her a part of it. Just as in the flashbacks to Eel Alley, one of his few objections to her master plan to ensconce him in the Kingsguard is "But the Rock." But because he can't have that life and proximity to Cersei too, he's spent the last half of his life convincing himself he never wanted it in the first place and bonus that it's the one thumb in the eye he can offer Tywin. I'm meandering here, but my point is that Jaime's got a lot tied up in his decision to continue this relationship. So if he generally has to pursue her and doesn't get much back, well that's just what it is. Eel Alley comes before all of that when there really isn't much of a relationship yet beyond whatever they were doing as children. Tywin is pretty far into arranging a marriage to tie him firmly to the succession of the Rock and then he's gone from her forever. Cersei doesn't have much choice but to force the issue there to get him to make the decision she wants. By the time the White Sword Tower happens, she can see he's pulling away from her. He hasn't come to her since the sept, he's distant and he won't do what she wants and kill Tyrion for her. Waiting him out only risks him drifting further away. So she has to force the issue again to try to get him back in line. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. March 8, 2017 Share March 8, 2017 Oh, totally, she has the power in this relationship by the nature of their situation and the nature of their personalities. I was more thinking of how it wasn't a case of Cersei only sleeping with him to get things from him. He already gave her everything that night in Eel Alley, since then they both just enjoyed the forbidden twincest and the secret joke on Robert (to the point of doing it in the same room where Robert was passed out drunk at least once). I don't imagine Lancel or Osney Kettleblack would feel the same confidence about Cersei wanting them whenever they came to her. What we see in her own PoV is Osney coming to her only when she summons him as part of her schemes, which is more withholding than she ever was with Jaime. What Jaime gets out of the deal is what he paid for by joining the Kingsguard, lifelong personal and sexual access to Cersei, and when that's all he is he obsessively centers his life around her, ignoring how selfish Cersei is. 55 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said: By the time the White Sword Tower happens, she can see he's pulling away from her. He hasn't come to her since the sept, he's distant and he won't do what she wants and kill Tyrion for her. Waiting him out only risks him drifting further away. So she has to force the issue again to try to get him back in line. Well, it's more that she pushed him away than he pulled back, iirc. She kicks him out of the room after the sept sex, and was never alone with him again after his crazy, dangerous marriage talk until she surprised him in White Sword Tower. I remember him thinking resentfully that they didn't even spend time together at Joffrey's funeral or something. Then she decided she needed his help again and came back to him, probably assuming the separation would make him desperate enough to obey her. (Like how she keeps rejecting him through most of Feast and still expects him to run to her rescue when she gets herself arrested.) I read this as a new emotional distance for them. I assume that in their glory days in the Red Keep when Robert was alive that Jaime was not used to being denied access unless Robert or some other aspect of Queenship kept her busy, and that Cersei never had to wait long for him to come to her unless some Kingsguard duty or such was keeping them apart. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker March 8, 2017 Share March 8, 2017 Fair point that Cersei's seeming avoidance of him is one of the many many things Jaime is harping on in his next chapter. I've never read it as more than part of his general list of complaints about how his clothes don't fit and nothing feels right to him and and he's disenchanted with his relatively paltry entry in the White Book. He doesn't like how Tyrion's trial is going or how any of the family has been acting, and he's trying to throw his weight around as the new commander of the Kingsguard. That chapter could easily be titled "The Lamentations of Jaime Lannister." But in a literal read, yeah, you're right that she is the one keeping her distance. Probably because she's mad he hasn't jumped to kill Tyrion for her and withholding has generally worked for her before. I do get a kick out of her making a great show of continually rejecting him in Feast when it seems pretty obvious that he's no longer interested in pursuing her, but that's a subject for the next book. I really am going to get around to finishing the actual chapter at hand. Link to comment
nodorothyparker March 9, 2017 Share March 9, 2017 Finally done. This is such a fascinating chapter for Jaime where he manages to be both his most self-absorbed and delusional while also being rather thoughtful and clear-eyed about the clusterfuck to which he's returned. I think he thinks he's being honest and romantic about wanting to finally just come clean about everything and openly marry Cersei and claim Tommen, but it's like he's completely ignoring who Cersei and Tywin are to imagine either of them would ever go along with it. They've got a pretty tight stranglehold on the throne at the moment and have effectively wiped out their rivals through one means or another and yet he truly thinks either of them would ever allow him to publicly announce "Nope, never had any actual claim. So sorry about all the carnage we caused because of it." Sure, it's a fun game of what-if to play to imagine that conversation with Tywin or how what's left of the other houses might have reacted had the Lannisters suddenly abdicated to go home to the Rock because of it, but it's just never going to happen. As it is, yes, Tywin's thinking feels so off throughout all of this. For better or for worse, Tommen is the king now. Yet he wants to send him all the way to the Rock to squire for his uncle/father when there are already rumors there? Thinking that it would be best to get Tommen away from Cersei's influence after seeing how thoroughly her raising ruined Joffrey makes sense at least, but he's already got the correct answer there in wanting to marry Cersei off and get her out of King's Landing. As far as his suggestion that Jaime should marry Margarey, the heir to Casterly Rock would under normal circumstances be a perfectly suitable match, but the Tyrells have done everything short of put up a big blinking sign that says they're hitching their star to whatever king or pretender will make Margarey a queen and put a grandchild on the Iron Throne. So he should already be aware that that would be a nonstarter. And as we've discussed before, I still simply cannot believe how utterly tone deaf letting Tyrion's trial so publicly happen was. Even Jaime coming off his own bit of delusional thinking seems shocked by it. I realize Tywin thinks they're so far above everyone else with his "lions don't concern themselves with the opinions of sheep" mindset, but it makes him completely oblivious to the reality that those people he dismisses as sheep are paying attention to how the ruling family is tearing itself to shreds with infighting and how vulnerable that leaves them. What I find most telling in Jaime's thoughts about Joffrey is his own awareness that he should probably feel something but doesn't and can barely even remember what he looked like. I frequently see him caught in a kind of no man's land with a lot of fans who want to justify that early in the story tower shove as protective of his children while others castigate him here and throughout because he doesn't really think of himself as their father. The story of Joffrey's birth pretty much tells you that he surrendered on that front early and compartmentalized and added the kids to the list of things he gave up as the price for being with Cersei. So at that point it's not hard to see why he'd think his hand would be more use to him than a kid he could never claim anyway. Jaime is right that Brienne's story of how Renly died is so terribly ridiculous that any lie she might come up with would probably sound more plausible. Of course because she's Brienne she immediately misunderstands his motives in keeping her separated from Loras so they don't end up fighting and likely killing each other. 1 Link to comment
John Potts March 9, 2017 Share March 9, 2017 For once, I'm not going to defend Tywin here (I'm sure everyone is shocked!) because he really doesn't have a plan. He suffers from the delusion that he can go on dominating the scene forever (even if he knows, intellectually, that he won't) and has no real plan for the future of his House. Sure, Barristan Selmy's retirement created a precedent that maybe it's possible to retire from the Kingsguard and so "get back" Jamie as his heir, but he just assumes Jamie will go along with that. As it is, his only (male) heir is on trial for his life - a situation he should never have allowed to arise (yes, Cersei publicly accused Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, but he could have spoken up about, "a mother's grief making her speak irrationally" and shut that down, just as he defused the situation between Joffrey & Tyrion at Tyrion's wedding). As it is, House Lannister will pass to Kevan & Lancel, not Tywin's children (which Tywin might be OK with - he seems to get on pretty well with his brother, although I doubt he thinks much of Lancel). 18 hours ago, Avaleigh said: What's up with Loras calling Catelyn an old woman? Her youngest kid is like five years old I have NO trouble believing that attitude - what you categorise as old is usually something along the lines of "more than a decade older than me" (on that basis, for me that would make "old" mid-50s), even if the old person in question is capable of running a marathon faster than you are! On 08/03/2017 at 4:25 AM, Avaleigh said: He remembers how Cersei prevented him from ever holding Joffrey as a baby I don't think it's just not wanting to put Joffrey (or Tommen) together with Jamie in case people think, "Wow, they look alike!" - my nephews look quite like me (or at least, like I did at their age) and nobody thinks I must have slept with my sister (which I didn't, obviously!) - it's more that holding a baby isn't something that men in their society would do. Babies were women's work (nobody thought Robert was strange to go off hunting while Cersei was in labour, for example) and men weren't expected to be interested in them until it was time to teach them to fight. Which might be sad, from a modern perspective, but would just be seen as the norm to them. 3 Link to comment
benteen March 9, 2017 Share March 9, 2017 Yeah, Tywin really is suffering from some Cersei-like delusions here. He really thinks the Tyrells are going to accept a demotion from Queen to Lady of Casterly Rock. I know Tywin a really high opinion of his family's worth but still, it's ridiculous. Does Tywin really think there's a better marriage out there for Tommen? Speaking of which, sending the current King out to foster at the Rock doesn't make much sense. The closest comparison I can make to it is after Robert's parents died, he became Lord of the Stormlands but was soon sent to foster out in the Vale. He was 10-13? I always found it out that at the start of Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Ned for that matter) was STILL at the Vale. At that point he was 20 years old and should have been ruling Storm's End. I suspect he was just half-assing his responsibilities like he always did, hanging around the Vale while Stannis was at home doing the actual ruling. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker March 9, 2017 Share March 9, 2017 That would certainly be one more thing on the pile contributing to Stannis' unending resentment. I suspect Robert preferred hanging around up north with Ned and making eyes at Lyanna as the opportunity arose rather than going home and doing something dull like ruling too. He certainly didn't take to it as king. 3 hours ago, John Potts said: yes, Cersei publicly accused Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, but he could have spoken up about, "a mother's grief making her speak irrationally" and shut that down, just as he defused the situation between Joffrey & Tyrion at Tyrion's wedding This definitely would have been the smarter thing to do. I realize Tywin was blinded by his hatred of Tyrion and likely saw the trial as an opportunity to be rid of him once and for all, and there's also the issue of very publicly making someone answer for the murder so no one's thinking you can just get away with poisoning a king, but it makes his family look terrible that they can't keep their own house in order and they're so willing to devour their own. Even if Tywin does believe he did it, by immediately going after Tyrion and trumping up a very public trial it also shut down any serious investigation of other potential culprits that might have tipped off the Lannisters to the fact that there was plotting going on against them from supposed allies while they were taking their victory lap. 3 Link to comment
John Potts March 9, 2017 Share March 9, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: there's also the issue of very publicly making someone answer for the murder so no one's thinking you can just get away with poisoning a king The obvious choice would be Sansa (hell, she did bring the poison!) this "Traitorous Viper we brought into our house" and blah, blah, blah... obviously, sucks to be Sansa, but as a fall guy for the Lannisters, she's ideally placed. I wonder what Littlefinger would do then? Edited March 9, 2017 by John Potts 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker March 9, 2017 Share March 9, 2017 They probably wouldn't have had to have tried too hard to convince everyone Sansa did it since we know there's already a narrative floating about of Sansa as the woman scorned and abandoned to have to marry a dwarf uncle instead. Too bad Cersei was too busy screaming at Tyrion and forcing an arrest for anyone to pay attention to where Sansa was. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. March 10, 2017 Share March 10, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, benteen said: Does Tywin really think there's a better marriage out there for Tommen? Speaking of which, sending the current King out to foster at the Rock doesn't make much sense. The closest comparison I can make to it is after Robert's parents died, he became Lord of the Stormlands but was soon sent to foster out in the Vale. He was 10-13? I always found it out that at the start of Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Ned for that matter) was STILL at the Vale. At that point he was 20 years old and should have been ruling Storm's End. I suspect he was just half-assing his responsibilities like he always did, hanging around the Vale while Stannis was at home doing the actual ruling. Obviously, there's no better match for Tommen, but Tywin is more concerned with the grown man who should have been married years ago than the marriage of an 8yo kid, ignoring that the Tyrells are only interested in his family for one reason and that no one else would possibly consider Jaime's marriage a more pressing concern than the question of Tommen's Queen. Robert was actually 16 when his parents died, so he'd been fostered for several years by then and was no longer underage. Continuing to hang out at the Eyrie was probably his typical avoidance of responsibility, but the fact that he was with Stannis to watch their parents' shipwreck means he must have gone home to visit at some point before he had such responsibility. I'm guessing once his parents were dead and he was the Lord, bad shipwreck memories and sheer laziness made him want to avoid home, and he certainly wouldn't have wanted to be there just to be with Stannis. The closest comparison I can think of is Sweetrobin in the first book. After Jon Arryn was dead and his son inherited, Cersei/Robert were still upset that Lysa kept him from being fostered at Casterly Rock and Ned offered to have Lysa and her son both stay at Winterfell instead. But the Vale had had absentee rulership for a while by then, and absentee kingship seems like a different matter. There doesn't appear to be any precedent for fostering out an underage king with no one even teaching him how to rule all 7K. I guess it's no wonder Jaime thinks Tywin could take the throne himself and just let Jaime/Tommen have the Rock when Tywin is already acting that way independent of Jaime's incestuous dreams. Quote holding a baby isn't something that men in their society would do. Babies were women's work (nobody thought Robert was strange to go off hunting while Cersei was in labour, for example) and men weren't expected to be interested in them until it was time to teach them to fight. Which might be sad, from a modern perspective, but would just be seen as the norm to them. I doubt Jaime was any more interested in "women's work" than any other uncle or father would be. He was in the birthing room mostly for Cersei herself, but somehow Cersei never cared how unusual that might look and bizarrely says it's bad enough the baby looked like Jaime not bad enough Jaime forced his way into the room to see the babies born. And it's not as if the "women's work" would actually be the mother's business either, when the mother is a Queen, princess, or other important aristocrat. They have servants to do that, just as there are others employed to educate children and train boys how to fight or ride a horse. A lady has her own household and duties in a castle, a full time job more important than motherhood. Getting pregnant and giving birth is a lady's duty, not so much doing anything more with a baby once he's been born. Both lords and ladies wouldn't really need to take too much notice of children until they're old enough to be useful, but a newborn heir would be of interest to all. Cersei told Sansa she "presented" Robert with a baby when he returned from the hunt and that Joff cried whenever Robert held him. And we know from Ned that Robert held and played with Mya in her early years, despite being a manly man who lost interest in Mya eventually, which suggests to me that holding a baby isn't too unusual for a typical medieval he-man rather than Robert being more sensitive and atypical than we give him credit for. Edited March 10, 2017 by Lady S. 2 Link to comment
John Potts March 16, 2017 Share March 16, 2017 On 10/03/2017 at 4:47 AM, Lady S. said: He was in the birthing room mostly for Cersei herself, but somehow Cersei never cared how unusual that might look and bizarrely says it's bad enough the baby looked like Jaime not bad enough Jaime forced his way into the room to see the babies born. You can actually make an argument that given it is the birth of an heir, that some responsible (ie. male*) witness should be present both to protect the heir to the throne and to ensure that no sort of baby swapping antics take place. And if they're worried about the "celibate" Kingsguard seeing the Queen naked, then surely the one Kingsguard who really shouldn't be getting turned on would be her brother. That would be disgusting! * Speaking from a Westerosi perspective obviously! 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh April 1, 2017 Share April 1, 2017 (edited) Davos VI Melisandre is having a worhsip session for the Lord of Light and Selyse is leading the responses of the worshippers. Davos and his companions are watching the worshippers from a distance and eventually Ser Andrew tells Davos that they need to get on with their task if they're going to make it happen. Davos think about how the companions that he's chosen for the task are all good men in their own way and worries that he'll be leading these guys to their deaths if things don't go according to plan. One of the men suggests that they kill Melisandre but Davos is wary of doing that because of what happened to Maester Cressen. Davos guesses that Melisandre gazed into the flames and figured out what Cressen was up to and that's how she was able to survive the encounter. Another of the men feels like it isn't honorable for them to go sneaking around to do what they want to do and Davos responds to this by asking the guy if it's really so honorable to be burned alive. He follows this by telling the men that he needs them to act like smugglers if they want to accomplish their goal and asks the men if they're with him. He seems shocked when the men do indeed confirm that they're with him. They go to find Edric who is having lessons with Maester Pylos. Pylos instructs Edric to get his cloak so that he can go with Davos. Edric wants to know where they're going and makes it clear that he has no interest in going to pray to Lord of Light. Edric says that he's a Warrior's man the way that his father was. Edric asks if Pylos is going with them but Pylos says that his place is on Dragonstone. He tells Edric to obey Davos and reminds the boy that Davos is the Hand of the King. Davos admires the courage of Pylos and wonders if Pylos is going to end up being killed for his act of bravery. Edric asks where they're going and stops in his tracks when Davos tells him that he's about to be put on a ship. Ser Andrew tries to reassure his cousin by telling him that he'll be traveling with him and tells him not to be afraid. Edric is indignant and claims not to be afraid. He then asks if Shireen will be coming too and says that he'd like to say goodbye to her first because she'd be sad if he didn't. Davos tells Edric that he'll let Shireen know that he was thinking of her and says that he'll eventually be able to write to her. Edric wants to know why he's being sent away and asks if he somehow displeased his uncle without knowing it. He demands to see Stannis but Andrew tells him that they simply don't have the time. Edric insists again on being allowed to see Stannis and Davos finally tells Edric that Stannis doesn't want to see him. Quote “He does not want to see you.” Davos had to say something, to get the boy moving. “I am his Hand, I speak with his voice. Must I go to the king and tell him that you would not do as you were told? Do you know how angry that will make him? Have you ever seen your uncle angry?” He pulled off his glove and showed the boy the four fingers that Stannis had shortened. “I have.” It was all lies; there had been no anger in Stannis Baratheon when he cut the ends off his onion knight’s fingers, only an iron sense of justice. But Edric Storm had not been born then, and could not know that. And the threat had the desired effect. “He should not have done that,” the boy said, but he let Davos take him by the hand and draw him down the steps. Once they get close to the boat that will take Edric to one of Salladhor Saan's ships, Davos goes down on one knee and tells Edric that it's time for him to leave. He tells the boy that he knows he'll be brave because he's Robert's son and tells him to think of it as being on an adventure. Before they part, Davos tells Edric that he hopes that the Warrior defends him and Edric responds by saying that he hopes that the Father judges Davos justly. When he heads over to see Stannis, Davos thinks to himself that Dragonstone has never looked as "dark and fearsome" as it does to him now. He thinks to himself that he should have been content with what he'd had and tells himself that if he somehow manages to survive the night that all he wants to do is take Devan and go home to his wife so that they can finish raising the sons they still have. Davos waits in the Chamber of the Painted Table for Stannis to come back from the nightfire and spends some time looking out of the windows. He seems unsettled by the stone dragons and has to remind himself that they're cold and lifeless. He thinks about how Dragonstone used to belong to House Targaryen and how the Targaryens were of Valyrian blood. When Stannis is almost inside of the room, Davos overhears him telling Melisandre that "two is not three". Once Stannis and Melisandre are in the room, Davos confirms for them that Joffrey is dead and says that it's possible he was poisoned. Stannis asks who the alleged poisoner is and is told that it's being said that Tyrion is responsible. Stannis says that he learned what a dangerous man Tyrion is during the Battle of the Blackwater and wants to know where Davos got his information. Davos says that he heard it from Salladhor Saan and says that Saan doesn't have any particular reason to lie to him. Stannis thinks about the kind of person Joffrey was and remembers how Joffrey once cut open a pregnant to have a look at the kittens. Stannis says that the kingdom is well served to be rid of Joffrey and says that the realm will have to look to him now. Melisandre reminds Stannis about Joffrey's brother Tommen, and Stannis claims that Tommen is another monster in the making because he's a product of incest the way that Joffrey was. He says that Westeros needs to be ruled by a man and not a child. Melisandre wants Stannis's permission to wake the stone dragons and asks him for Edric Storm. Stannis tells Davos that he doesn't want to be lectured and says that he has a duty to save the realm. Stannis asks Melisandre if there's any other way and tells her that he'll make her die slowly and painfully if she lies to him. Quote “You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. “Give me this boy,” she whispered, “and I will give you your kingdom.” Davos tells Melisandre that Edric Storm isn't going to be used for her stone dragon plan because he's currently aboard a Lyseni galley and is safely out at sea. Davos watches Melisandre and is pleased to see that she's surprised that she didn't see any of this coming during all of her flame gazing. Melisandre tells Davos that he will bring Edric back to them, but Davos says that Edric is officially out of his reach and hers as well. Melisandre asks Davos if he realizes what he's done and tells him that she ought to have left him in his dark cell. Davos tells her that he's only done his duty and Stannis says that some people might think that Davos's behavior counts as treason. He asks Davos if loyalty was too much to hope for and Davos argues that Edric is one of Stannis's people that Davos is honor bound to protect. Stannis claims that Edric's death is necessary to save a million other children from "the dark" and says that a true sacrifice is never an easy thing. Melisandre talks about how Azor Ahai killed his wife to make Lightbringer and speaks of the general power of kingsblood. She also points out that Davos hasn't saved Edric and says that he's going to die anyway along with everyone else once the darkness takes over the world. She tells him that he's interfering in a situation that he doesn't understand. Davos admits that there are all sorts of things that he doesn't know. One thing he does know though is that a king who doesn't protect his people is no true king at all. Stannis asks Davos if he's mocking him and asks if he really must learn what a king's duty is from a man who is a smuggler. Davos kneels before Stannis and tells him to execute him if he's offended him. He says that he'll die as he's lived--as Stannis's loyal man. Davos asks only to be heard out first and produces a sheet of parchment; he thinks of it as the only shield that he has left. He says that a King's Hand should be able to read and write and proceeds to read the letter out to Stannis. He mentions that Pylos has been teaching him to read. Edited April 1, 2017 by Avaleigh 3 Link to comment
Scarlett45 April 2, 2017 Share April 2, 2017 I've always liked Davos. He makes hard choices when they need to be made and he saves Stannis from himself. Link to comment
Lady S. April 2, 2017 Share April 2, 2017 When one of the king's men thinks sneaking around feels dishonorable, I can't help but think of Ned refusing Renly's offer partly because he didn't want to steal frightened children from their beds. That kind of practical difference is probably why Davos has a longer life and longer career as a Baratheon Hand than Ned did. OTOH, one big thing Davos and Ned have in common is that their duty to king and country very often outweigh their personal concerns. On 3/31/2017 at 9:12 PM, Avaleigh said: He thinks to himself that he should have been content with what he'd had and tells himself that if he somehow manages to survive the night that all he wants to do is take Devan and go home to his wife so that they can finish raising the sons they still have. Yet he does survive the night and it seems he and Stannis move straight onto their northern campaign without Davos checking in at home. IIRC, in Dance he thinks as he hasn't seen his wife and two youngest in a long time, so they never got a chance to grieve together for the four eldest. I don't think he went home at all in Clash either, before he lost half his family on the Blackwater. Stannis must have been keeping him busy from the day he started his bid for the throne. As it is, Davos could end up dying in the North and/or his home could fall victim to Aegon's Stormlands invasion without the Seaworths ever reuniting post-war. Poor Marya. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker April 3, 2017 Share April 3, 2017 That's one of the reasons why I like Davos so much. He's fairly honorable as far as characters in this series go, but he isn't a complete bloody fool about it. His question "Is it so honorable to burn?" is a terrific example of that. Ned likely would have said yes, as he pretty much did right up to the point he was completely out of options and confessed to treason to try to protect his girls. I like that we consistently see Davos taking the time to weigh his responses in figuring out how to push Stannis toward doing the right thing or at least the least bad thing against unnecessarily leaving himself open to ending up as fuel on Mel's latest pyre. He's smart in showing up to his confession that he put their intended sacrifice on the first galley off the island with a Plan B, knowing that their first impulse is probably going to be to want to kill him for it. It's such a Stannis response upon hearing the news that Joffrey is dead to think surely the Lannisters or somebody will send for him as the rightful ruler now. I love how Mel immediately shoots it down. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. April 4, 2017 Share April 4, 2017 The most interesting thing about Stan's response was his memory of the incident with Joffrey and the cat, and the last line saying he'd thought Robert had killed Joff when he hit him. If the point is just that Joffrey was a bad seed even as a little boy, unfit to ever be king, we wouldn't need to hear about Robert's response, which we'd already learned from Cersei, or what Stannis thought of Robert's response. If Stannis, not exactly a softhearted man or fond of Joffrey even when he thought the boy was his nephew, thought Robert's blow may have been fatal then it must have been pretty hard. There's a lot of debate about the effectiveness of corporal punishment, but this seems like a clear example of just teaching someone to express themselves with violence. I don't think empathy for animals or anyone else is taught with nothing more than a punch to the head. I doubt Robert explained why what Joffrey did was wrong or how he should behave in future and I doubt Robert was thinking of the poor kitty's pain either. If someone had just told him Joff killed some cat he probably would have ignored it, but instead his son presented him with (presumably) dead and bloody unborn kittens which made for a repulsive and sickening gift, and as Robert later explained to Ned after hitting Cersei, he doesn't how to deal with his anger if he can't hit someone. IMO Joffrey probably always would have been shiity, but he could have been a managed asshole if he'd had proper parenting instead of Robert's neglect/abuse and Cersei spoiling him rotten. However, for Stannis the answer to Joffrey's unsettling behavior and Robert's unsettling response is that the incest just produced irredeemable abominations with no true means to discipline them, making Tommen "another monster in the making", who can only be dealt with by being disposed of, which just so happens to further Stannis's own claim to the throne. (Although we know he is right about Cersei's kids having no true claim as Robert's heirs, and he has a point that most people prefer an adult ruler to a child. Nobody but the Lannister/Tyrell coalition and their hangers-on are best served by Tommen being a puppet-king.) 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker April 4, 2017 Share April 4, 2017 Yeah, there's a whole lot of the nature/nurture debate in any discussion about Joffers. He's doubly Tywin's grandson so the penchant for assholery and terribleness is certainly there but it's also pretty clear throughout that he was raised with just right amounts of paternal indifference and maternal indulgence combined with the massive entitlement of being the crown prince to create a completely unchecked monster. The incident with the shooting at rabbits and missing over and over as all the various guardsmen laugh behind his back about it in the last book is a perfect example of how no one ever bothered to take the time to teach him any discipline or patience yet expected him to be king. I agree that it's interesting that the story of the cat and Robert's response still stands out to Stannis all these years after the fact, but rather than see it as evidence that he was a child raised badly to be that monster who nevertheless didn't have any hand in the decision making to stake that illegitimate claim to the throne -- that's on the Lannister adults -- he defaults to "well, he was an abomination born of incest so of course he was bad and his brother will be no different." He's not wrong of course that those boys have no claim and that that particular detail is one of the few pluses his own has going for it. Or that an adult ruler is infinitely preferable to a child. But for me it always circles back to the idea that all these people who want to act mortally offended by such an "abomination" seem to have precious few thoughts about having just spent 300 years being ruled by a line so inbred that Dany's family tree is practically a stump. They don't seem to make that same connection with the Mad King, for example. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. April 5, 2017 Share April 5, 2017 15 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: But for me it always circles back to the idea that all these people who want to act mortally offended by such an "abomination" seem to have precious few thoughts about having just spent 300 years being ruled by a line so inbred that Dany's family tree is practically a stump. They don't seem to make that same connection with the Mad King, for example. I can understand in-universe why the dragons would make people view the Targs differently, but the same really shouldn't be true in the fandom. Y'know all those stupid jokes about Joffrey being inbred like a sandwich? I never see anything like that for Dany, even though a brother/sister for parents and a brother/sister for grandparents is more inbred than a brother/sister for parents and first cousins for grandparents, and this was the norm in her family far more than any other. Even the Dany haters who thinks she's going mad just link it to madness running in her family, not that generations of incest was the real problem. I mean, Jon's bio parents were obviously not related, but Rhaegar was product of the same generational close incest as Dany and he passed all that inbred blood onto Jon. The idea that incest produces ruined children or that Joffrey is some unique freak only works with the Lanniscest kids where people just ignore Tommen and Myrcella, but not with the Targs where people generally like at least one character with Targ blood even if they're not Dany fans. 5 Link to comment
nodorothyparker April 5, 2017 Share April 5, 2017 I too can understand why the average lord would shrug and say, well, they're very different from us so whatever as long as the Targaryens had dragons. Fire breathing monsters do have a way of quelling a lot objections. But the dragons have been gone what? 150 or more years by this point? And still the royal family tree no less resembles a stick. Jaime's remembering in other chapters how the Kingsguard and everyone at court stood around impotently when they all knew that Aerys was raping and seriously hurting Rhaella is always an interesting juxtaposition to me, given that they all knew that this was his sister as well as his wife, when less than a generation later so many will have so much to say about Jaime's consensual relationship with his own sister and the products of that relationship. Yet at the time the only real concern anyone seems to have is that Rhaegar doesn't have a sister of his own to marry so a wife outside the family will have to be found. Of course, in hindsight had Rhaegar had a sister to marry and continue the incest yet another generation, they could have avoided the whole angering Tywin by rejecting Cersei and sparking the rebellion by Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, and left the Martells out of it entirely. So maybe there is something to be said for that. 3 Link to comment
benteen April 7, 2017 Share April 7, 2017 This is a great example of why Davos is such a good man and Pylos really comes through here as he has just as much to lose as Davos. The book scene with Davos and the letter is so much better than the show scene, which makes Stannis look impotent and like a literal puppet of Melisandre. Quote Davos tells Edric that he'll let Shireen know that he was thinking of her and says that he'll eventually be able to write to her. Damn...that line seems almost sad now.... 3 Link to comment
WearyTraveler April 7, 2017 Share April 7, 2017 I wonder if Martin will mention Edric Storm again in the upcoming books (ahahahaha, "upcoming books" is in the same sentence as Martin!!!!). Not that I consider it essential to know his fate, but, I'm a little curious. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh April 13, 2017 Share April 13, 2017 Jon VIII Jon dreams that he's down in the crypts of Winterfell. The stone kings tell him that he isn't a Stark and that he has no place there. Jon calls for his father, Bran, Rickon, and Benjen to no avail. He whispers Ygritte's name and asks her to forgive him. He then sees a grey direwolf that is spotted with blood. It's still dark outside when Jon wakes up in his cell, and he starts thinking about how he burned Ygritte's body, as he knows she would have wanted. He wonders what the significance is of seeing the bloody direwolf in his dream. He worries that the direwolf might have been Bran's and fears that the Thenns might have hunted his brother down. He's also concerned about Ghost because he doesn't know where he is. Mance's army is at the gate and Jon seems uneasy about the fact that Mance's side includes giants and mammoths. Donal Noye gives Jon command of the Wall after Noye decides that he's going to take a few men to go and defend the gate. There are older men, Jon wanted to say, better men. I am still as green as summer grass. I’m wounded, and I stand accused of desertion. His mouth had gone bone dry. “Aye,” he managed. Both sides continue to fight into the morning and the men at the Wall are clearly outnumbered. Satin asks how they will be able to stop so many people and Jon gives the men a speech about how the Wall will be able to defend itself. He says that they'll be fine as long as they can defend the gate. The fighting goes on until the remaining mammoths eventually flee the battle. The fleeing mammoths end up causing chaos for the wildlings, and Mance's army quickly breaks up after this happens. Once the wildlings decide to make a run for it, the men of the Watch feel relieved and Jon decides to give command of the Wall to Grenn so that he can finally take the chance to eat and get some sleep. Before Jon goes to take his break, he goes to check on Noye and the other men who defended the gate. He finds that they're all dead and that they were killed by the giant Mag the Mighty. Jon is upset but tells himself that he doesn't have time to dwell on the sadness of the situation. He tells the men that they need to repair the outer gate and says that Ser Wynton will need to take command. Maester Aemon reminds Jon that Ser Wynton isn't with the program these days and tells Jon that he'll need to be the one to lead the men. Jon tries to refuse at first but Aemon reassures him by saying that it's only a temporary move. “Yes, Jon. It need not be for long. Only until such time as the garrison returns. Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow.” 5 Link to comment
Lady S. April 13, 2017 Share April 13, 2017 13 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Jon dreams that he's down in the crypts of Winterfell. The stone kings tell him that he isn't a Stark and that he has no place there. Jon calls for his father, Bran, Rickon, and Benjen to no avail. He whispers Ygritte's name and asks her to forgive him. He then sees a grey direwolf that is spotted with blood. This one is Jon's most interesting crypt dream so far IMO. First of all, it reminds me of Bran and Rickon's shared crypt dream after Ned's death, except he's seeing Grey Wind instead of Robb himself. Interesting that he's the only one who has a crypt dream for Robb/Grey Wind, while Bran just has what he describes as Summer's dream. (Which I'm inclined to take at face value because we know the wolves are connected to each other and Jon realizes at one point in Dance that Ghost knows Grey Wind is dead.) But the other dream it reminds me of is Theon's RW-foreshadowing dream, with Jon hearing drums and thinking there's a feast in the Great Hall like how Theon was feasting with dead people in his last Clash dream and bloody Robb and Grey Wind walked in. I also like how the first time he calls Benjen Jon just says "Uncle?", which unbeknownst to him, could refer to Ned too as another of his maternal uncles. Quote He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three. One of the more honking Targ hints when you're aware of R+L=J. He doesn't just think of a dragon for himself, but "or three", the exact number aunt Dany has to bring north. Speaking of obvious, Jon yelling "They cannot pass!" on top of the Wall feels like a nod to Gandalf's "You shall not pass!" showdown with the Balrog in LotR, which in the book is actually "You cannot pass!". 3 Link to comment
John Potts April 13, 2017 Share April 13, 2017 If that dream is meant to b significant, the details are rather odd. If it's simply a "normal" dream, then it makes sense that the Stone Kings tell Jon that "he's not a Stark" since it would just reflect the "fact" that has been drilled into him that he isn't one. But if it's meant to be a "true" dream, then he really IS the heir to the Kings of Winter - admittedly via Lyanna not Ned, but the title King of Winter has passed down the female line before, so that shouldn't be a problem. Unless they're saying that his (male) Targaryen ancestry tumps his (female) Stark descent? And then there's always the possibility that R+L=J isn't true in the books, but I'd say that's unlikely. Is the bloody grey wolf meant to be the ghost of Robb/Grey Wind? Always a sucker for a desperate last ditch defence. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. April 13, 2017 Share April 13, 2017 (edited) The Targs are responsible for reducing the Kings of Winter to Lords of Winterfell and the last Targ king horribly murdered a Stark lord and his heir, so I can understand why some dusty ghosts would not be pleased about a female-line Stark/male-line Targ. Some of those old northerners were hardcore and not always reasonable. There's also the possibility that dream-Jon is just projecting and the muttering of the stone kings is not clearly decipherable. In his aGoT crypt dreams, Jon was the one protesting to the stone kings that he wasn't a Stark and this wasn't his place because he was scared of going down in the dream-crypts. I think there's a mix of dream-logic and the genuine supernatural going on as there was in Jaime's weirwood-stump dream. Edited April 14, 2017 by Lady S. 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda April 14, 2017 Share April 14, 2017 I've always wondered if this crypt dream of Jon's wasn't connected to Bran's dream right where Ned is there being sad about Jon, before the raven arrives from KL to tell them that Ned was dead. 1 Link to comment
benteen April 21, 2017 Share April 21, 2017 Poor Noye. He was a character I liked a lot. It's too bad he and Stannis couldn't have reunited though I can't see him thrilled at the idea of seeing Stannis burning people. The bloody direwolf...I forgot but does Jon know about what happened to Robb at this point? 1 Link to comment
Lady S. April 22, 2017 Share April 22, 2017 6 hours ago, benteen said: The bloody direwolf...I forgot but does Jon know about what happened to Robb at this point? No, we never see the exact point he finds out in the book (the way he does with Ned's arrest/death and the Sack of Winterfell) but I think the news must have arrived with Stannis. At this point, the NW is pretty cut off from recent events in the outside world and Jon is only reacting to Bran's, Rickon's, and Ygritte's deaths when he would have been explicitly upset about Robb's too if he knew about the Red Wedding. 1 Link to comment
John Potts April 22, 2017 Share April 22, 2017 Pretty sure the NW still has ravens: I find it hard to believe that Robb's death wouldn't be one thing that would fly around the 7 Kingdoms as fast as the ravens could flap. 1 Link to comment
Azi April 22, 2017 Share April 22, 2017 I remember being confused by Jon not really reacting to Robb's death by that point, because they were pretty close in the books. I still find it weird that he must have found out off-screen at some point. Guess it shows that Robb wasn't really all that important to GRRM. 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda April 22, 2017 Share April 22, 2017 It's odd that Jon wasn't allowed to react to Robb's death, but at the same time, it kinda of seems like it has to do with his Night's Watch vows and how he decided to set his feelings for his family aside. There were numerous times when he starts thinking about them and then corrects his course and his mindset is all about how he is now a brother of the NW, how the men in it are his brother, and swore a vow. I'm hoping that he'll be allowed to react to all these events in WoW (fingers crossed and all). 1 Link to comment
Lady S. April 23, 2017 Share April 23, 2017 14 hours ago, Azi said: I remember being confused by Jon not really reacting to Robb's death by that point, because they were pretty close in the books. I still find it weird that he must have found out off-screen at some point. Guess it shows that Robb wasn't really all that important to GRRM. it's really not all that different from Sansa finding out about Bran and Rickon, which must have happened offscreen between Clash and Storm, whereas Jon and Arya find out onscreen. I think GRRM was just trying to avoid repetition by showing each and every Stark PoV find out about each and every Stark tragedy. Hell, we don't even see everyone finding out about Ned's death. Cat and Robb find out offscreen before her last chapter in the first book, sometime after the Battle of the Whispering Wood but before their triumphant entrance into Riverrun with the KitN scene, we don't have any more details than that, and Catelyn can't dwell on it too much with everything else going on. They obviously knew about Ned's death by the KitN scene without the ambiguity wrt Sansa/the Sack of Winterfell and Jon/the Red Wedding, but we don't see an immediate response like the show scene of them grieving in the woods. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.