The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[Avaleigh]

I find it interesting how many longterm repercussions there are regarding the Lannisters decision to dump Barristan from the Kingsguard. I wonder too how the Old Bear would have responded to Robb's offer of a hundred men for Jon? (Just where was Robb going to get these guys when he needs every man?) Presumably the plan was to free Jon from the Night's Watch sooner rather than later for practical purposes, but I wonder what Robb's thoughts were here timeline wise. If he wants Jon to follow him and possibly lead his men one day, then it would make sense to bring him into the fold as soon as possible. Even if Jeyne had a baby, what if something happened to it or what if Robb died when the kid was a toddler or something? 

I wonder too if Jon had succeeded Robb immediately after Robb's death what Jeyne's mother's next move would have been. 

Regarding Catelyn being uptight--what's doubly irritating to me is that she done things of her own that go against the by the book rules, but has no patience for other people who do. 

I don't hate Edmure for not being thrilled about having to marry some woman he's never seen before. He's probably imagining Old Walder with a dress and a wig. 

Lucky for Robb that his mother had the foresight to think it was better to leave Jeyne at home. The biggest shock for me regarding the show RW was that Talisa was present. If Jeyne had gone to the Twins, she would have been kept alive, right?

The moment in this chapter that gave me a pang was Catelyn reflecting that she basically doesn't have anything to look forward to and only expects bad things to happen. She feels like they might be fucked even if the wedding manages to go smoothly. Nothing is right in her life and she seems like she's doing her best to keep her bitterness from overwhelming her completely. Frankly, I'd think that the Mormont women would have more sense than to ask her what's wrong as if it's somehow confusing as to why she'd  be in low spirits. 

Littlefinger really was around for all of Catelyn's early memories. 

Catelyn's love for Ned seems to have intensified since his death. The love was already there of course but I do feel like his death has magnified her appreciation of their relationship.  

As for Robb being convinced that Arya is dead--I guess what seemed harsh to me was the way he wants Catelyn to give up hope rather than just letting her be.

It also made me wonder if Robb is tuned into the supernatural at all the way that his siblings are. Considering how Bran and Rickon both seemed to know about Ned's death before they got word, I feel like they'd have have a similar experience if Arya were to die and it made me wonder if Robb has ever mentioned having any weird dreams or if he's ever slipped into Grey Wind's skin. 

[nodorothyparker]

I think Robb might have been much more inclined to just let Catelyn think whatever she thinks or hold onto hope for Arya if she wasn't there insisting that he name a girl no one has seen in forever and has been long presumed dead as his heir over his half brother who is in a known location and is more or less an adult who might be capable of actual ruling the North.  I'd be impatient and wanting to shake some reality into her too at that point.

Once I got over just how thoroughly modern and anachronistic Talisa was as a Jeyne replacement on the show, I wasn't at all surprised they took her to the Red Wedding too.  The show barely gives you any sense of just how great a loss that is for nearly every family in North (which I guess makes sense if you're going to mostly abandon the whole North Remembers aspect of the story) and instead chose to dial the tragedy of it up to 11 by stabbing the of course pregnant Talisa in the babymaker.  Catelyn's reasoning for leaving Jeyne behind actually makes perfect sense to me, although we still haven't seen a ton of payoff of that decision.  Jeyne's survival prospects had she gone I guess depend on whether you believe in the whole Westerlings are in league with Tywin idea or whether any of them would have had any further use for her once Robb was dead.  If I remember correctly, the one Westerling brother who does go is believed to have died there.

I wondered too about the hundred men Robb is proposing to offer for Jon.  Since the Nights Watch is basically a life sentence as opposed to going to war which generally has an end date if you're not killed and there already aren't a ton of men clamoring to volunteer for it, that probably wouldn't be a real popular move.

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's interesting that Robb seems to have both at least a basic understanding that Iron Island succession isn't a straightforward thing like it generally is on the mainland but still identifies Theon as the rightful heir.  I'm not much of a Iron Islands fan and hated how much they ate of the next two books, but we get just the right amount of information here on what the upcoming power struggle there is likely to be.

I'm very curious what Theon said about Euron to make Robb so sure he'd be a bad king and that his own family would never stand for it. It's a pretty big deal to expect Victarion, the younger brother and captain of the Fleet, to abandon command of their best strategic holding in the North as soon as he hears Euron is back. Theon was so delusional about the rest of his family yet was clear-eyed about Uncle Euron enough for Robb to have his number too. On its own, this could be just so we know what to expect with Euron, but Theon I of Winds has him

Spoiler

getting freaked out by Mors Umber's eyepatch just because it reminded him of Euron's.

I've always loved this set piece of Tristifer's grave at Oldstones. The faceless carving and ruined castle so lost to history that its true name is unknown evoke the spirit of "now the rains weep o'er his hall with no one left to hear" in a certain song soon to be played at a certain wedding. Even Robb seems to feel the similarity with a king who won most of his battles but lost his kingdom and lacked a good heir. There's also the fact of the Mudds being the last First Men dynasty to rule the riverlands and Robb being the first First Men-identifying, old gods-following king to claim the riverlands in who knows how many centuries-while the Freys and their history of only 600 years are seen as being ill-bred upstarts almost as distasteful as foreign invaders. And then of course, the site became associated much more recently with Jenny of Oldstones and her prince, a royal who broke his betrothal and chose a girl over political good sense, another similarity to Robb's story. 

5 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 Jeyne had gone to the Twins, she would have been kept alive, right?

No way. Her brother was killed there and Sybell made it clear to Jaime she never would have let him go if she'd known what the wedding really was, and the Freys Jaime asked had no clue there was any reason not to kill the Westerlings. Tywin had no more reason to tell Walder of his deal with Sybell than he did to tell her about his deal with Walder. Better to let him hate Robb for humiliating him and feel like Tywin was doing a favor by rewarding him for taking revenge, than to let him know that other people wanted Robb to break his betrothal and the Freys were being manipulated into doing Tywin's dirty work. I don't want to skip ahead, but since this keeps coming up, here's the relevant passages under a cut.

Spoiler

 

Her [Jeyne's] face was puffy, and there was a scab on her forehead, half-hidden by a lock of brown hair. “What happened there?” he asked her. The girl turned her head away. “It is nothing,” insisted her mother ....“She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”

“It was mine.” Jeyne sobbed. “You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him.”

Her mother made to slap her, but Jaime stepped between them. “None of that,” he warned Lady Sybell.

....“I have two sons as well,” Lady Westerling reminded him. “Rollam is with me, but Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had known what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that.” There was a hint of reproach in her voice. “Raynald knew nought of any . . . of the understanding with your lord father. He may be a captive at the Twins.”

Or he may be dead. Walder Frey would not have known of the understanding either.

.... [later, to the Freys] “Tell me, is Ser Raynald Westerling amongst these captives?”

“The knight of seashells?” Edwyn sneered. “You’ll find that one feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork.”

 

(This is why I think Sybell only cooked up her deal with Tywin to cover them after the marriage, because otherwise not warning her about the Red Wedding was a shitty way to pay back a Lannister debt.)

Now, onto Jon's legitimization. I think this is definitely where I found Catelyn to be her most frustrating, and I always like it when Grey Wind expresses Robb's frustration with her. There are certainly issues with naming an heir already in the NW, but she just focuses on bullshit about the Blackfyres. People in-story ignore that the person who put down most of the Blackfyre Rebellions was Bloodraven, a loyal bastard. And it's probably no coincidence that Bloodraven appears to have had a more stable relationship with Daeron II than Bittersteel and Daemon Blackfyre did, so the idea that close contact with bastard relations only makes them more dangerous is pretty counter-intuitive. Westeros must have far more examples of kinslaying with legitimate family members, one of which Catelyn personally witnessed with the Baratheon brothers, and another comes up later in this chapter with the Greyjoy infighting, yet no one makes generalization about never trusting any of your brothers. I don't think Catelyn even fully believes her own arguments about Jon's trustworthiness because her previous feelings about Jon have been more about resentment and pride than fear and Cersei-like paranoid distrust, and she doesn't even bother to defend herself when Robb calls her Theon comparison cruel and unfair, she just switches tack to talk of future generations. When it comes down to it, I think it just galls her to think of a possible future with all her own children dead and the boy she resented his whole life ruling the kingdom of the North and the Trident in her children's place. That is a possibility she could never abide and an indignity on top of all her other losses. But without a child of his own (and without Arya returned in time and with Bran and Rickon in hiding), Robb really has no better options. Some distant cousin in the Vale hardly has more claim to Winterfell, more likelihood to be accepted by the northerners, or more reason to be loyal to any future children of Robb's when he's never even met Robb.

ETA:

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It also made me wonder if Robb is tuned into the supernatural at all the way that his siblings are. Considering how Bran and Rickon both seemed to know about Ned's death before they got word, I feel like they'd have have a similar experience if Arya were to die and it made me wonder if Robb has ever mentioned having any weird dreams or if he's ever slipped into Grey Wind's skin.

The lack of supernatural certainty doesn't mean a lack of any supernatural connection. Jon and Arya are unconscious wargs but they both believe Bran and Rickon are dead. I think the Ned premonition was a separate deal, and furthermore a one-time thing which wasn't repeated in the same way for Robb's death. I feel pretty sure that the only reason Robb isn't a confirmed warg is because we have no PoV for him. He has no reason to mention wolf dreams (Bran is the only one who talks about them and he was ashamed to do so until meeting the Reeds) but his protestations about not being a wolf no matter what men call him parallel the way Jon talks about warging and Ghost.

Speaking of Arya, I found it funny that Catelyn brought up her being passed over for Jon seeing as how Arya's the last person who would care about that or object to Jon being named a Stark. I sympathize with Catelyn not wanting Jon to displace her 4 younger children when they were all safe and together at Winterfell, because a wife's power in this society comes from producing heirs. But when normal succession is no longer an option, it's a different matter to argue against Robb's and Arya's own wishes when Winterfell is theirs, not hers. And while we know she still holds some faint, unrealistic hope of her daughters' return (even despite Sansa's marriage) with her earlier thought of Brienne, if she really believed in that she would have brought up Arya first before any unknown Vale lordling.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Lady S.

[benteen]

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I wondered too about the hundred men Robb is proposing to offer for Jon.  Since the Nights Watch is basically a life sentence as opposed to going to war which generally has an end date if you're not killed and there already aren't a ton of men clamoring to volunteer for it, that probably wouldn't be a real popular move.

This is a reminder that the feudal system sucks.  I'm sure Robb's men would have been "thrilled" to be drafted to serve at the freezing Wall and had celibacy forced on them.

I think Jeyne would have been killed too if she had been at the Wall.  Keeping Blackfish behind was smart and Book Blackfish is 1000 times better than Show Blackfish.

Edited November 23, 2016 by benteen

[John Potts]

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:28 AM, Avaleigh said:

If Jeyne had gone to the Twins, she would have been kept alive, right?

I doubt it. I expect Tywin would see the Westerlings as a bunch of flip floppers who were probably trying to play both sides. Having a secret heir to the North in the hands of a House of questionable loyalty would definitely be something he'd want to avoid. And if a bunch of treacherous Northerners and Riverlanders happen to kill her... well, I'm sure he'd be weeping onto his Hand amulet.

[Avaleigh]

Samwell III

Sam prays in front of a weirwood for help because he thinks that he and Gilly might be lost. They spend the night in one of the abandoned wildling huts and Sam tells Gilly a little about what to expect at the Wall. 

Gilly asks Sam to sing for her, so he chooses "The Song of the Seven" and thinks back to the last time that he sang the song with his mother back when his brother Dickon was still a baby. His father heard them singing and told his wife that she'd 'ruined' one of her sons with songs and wouldn't be allowed to do the same to the other. Sam's memory makes it clear that his father wanted him to stay away from his little brother.

Sam worries about Gilly's baby and thinks about how the boy doesn't have a name yet. Gilly thinks it's bad luck to name a child before the age of two since so many die before that age. Gilly asks Sam why the song only talks about six gods and Sam briefly explains that nobody sings about the Stranger. Just talking about the Stranger makes Sam feel uncomfortable, so he changes the subject and suggests that they eat. 

After they eat, Sam goes outside to bring their horse in and starts thinking about what he'll do with Gilly once they make it to Castle Black. He knows that men of the Night's Watch aren't allowed to get married and thinks that even if he were allowed to marry that a member of House Tarly would never be able to marry a wildling. 

Gilly smells like milk, garlic, and musty old fur, but Sam thinks these are good smells and enjoys sleeping next to her. Sam remembers how he once shared a bed with his sisters until his father decided one day that these arrangements were making him 'soft'. He thinks about how being forced to sleep alone didn't make him any stronger or braver and wonders what his father would think of him if he told him about how he's killed one of the Others. 

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His dreams were strange that night. He was back at Horn Hill, at the castle, but his father was not there. It was Sam’s castle now. Jon Snow was with him. Lord Mormont too, the Old Bear, and Grenn and Dolorous Edd and Pyp and Toad and all his other brothers from the Watch, but they wore bright colors instead of black. Sam sat at the high table and feasted them all, cutting thick slices off a roast with his father’s greatsword Heartsbane. There were sweet cakes to eat and honeyed wine to drink, there was singing and dancing, and everyone was warm. When the feast was done he went up to sleep; not to the lord’s bedchamber where his mother and father lived but to the room he had once shared with his sisters. Only instead of his sisters it was Gilly waiting in the huge soft bed, wearing nothing but a big shaggy fur, milk leaking from her breasts.

Sam wakes up feeling cold and scared and sees that Gilly is crying as she hugs her baby. Sam notices multiple shadows around them and one of the figures begins to move closer. Gilly cries and says that she thinks they're coming for her baby, and Sam pisses himself when he realizes that the shadow coming towards him is a wight who use to be Small Paul. 

Sam tells Gilly to lead the horse out of the hut and comforts her by reminding her that he's armed with the dragonglass dagger. He prays for enough courage to be able to fight long enough for Gilly to get away and tries talking first to the wight who was Small Paul. They end up fighting and Sam is nearly killed even as he stabs the wight multiple times with the dragon glass dagger. Sam thinks that he's going to die and his last thoughts are of his mother and father. The wight nearly rips Sam's head off but he manages to save himself by smashing some burning wood into the thing's mouth. 

Sam goes outside to find Gilly and sees her backed against a weirwood as wights surround her. Their horse has been killed and Sam sees that he recognizes the faces of multiple wights. A raven lands on Sam's shoulder and repeatedly urges him to 'go', so he grabs Gilly and tells her that they have to go. Gilly starts asking about what they'll do now that they don't have a horse, but their conversation is interrupted by a man who calls out to Sam and addresses him as 'Brother'. A hood shadows the man's face. 

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He’s wearing blacks. Sam urged Gilly toward him. The elk was huge, a great elk, ten feet tall at the shoulder, with a rack of antlers near as wide. The creature sank to his knees to let them mount. “Here,” the rider said, reaching down with a gloved hand to pull Gilly up behind him. Then it was Sam’s turn. “My thanks,” he puffed. Only when he grasped the offered hand did he realize that the rider wore no glove. His hand was black and cold, with fingers hard as stone.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

I feel like this chapter was mainly about showing us how wights and the Others need to be killed in different ways. The Others can be taken out by dragon glass and Valyrian steel, but the wights need to be touched by fire. 

Sam definitely meets Ned's definition of what it takes to be brave. He's scared shitless all the time, but still wills himself to fight and only thinks about trying to save Gilly. I thought it was nice too that he resisted the temptation to ride the horse with Gilly. He didn't just think of her and the baby, but he thought of the horse as well. 

I find it odd that the Others seem like they sent the wights to collect the baby as opposed to one of their own. Maybe there is an Other who is lurking in the background and we just can't see it, but if Gilly is correct that they're there for the baby, it's odd to me that one of the Others wouldn't be the one to move forward to get it. Or is it because of Sam managing to kill that one Other and they're wary? Do we think they even know for sure that Sam has killed one of their guys? 

Also, regarding the weirwood having a different looking face--did it change because of events that have happened since Sam passed it the first time or is it a different tree altogether? Are there any other instances in the books of weirwood faces changing? 

Coldhands coming at the right time and moment here is just one of those things that I kind of just hand wave away. There's really no reason why Gilly and Sam shouldn't be dead already considering how surrounded they were. 

[Lady S.]

I love how Sam prays at the weirwood when they arrive, and then help comes when they need it, as if Bloodraven heard and answered his prayer. Makes me wonder if things would have gone worse without the prayer. And if Sam had died without meeting Coldhands, how would Bran get through the Wall and find Bloodraven? Or was Bloodraven already watching over Sam and the prayer to the old gods was just coincidence?

I know we all get annoyed by Sam's constant thoughts of his cowardice but I understood his thoughts here about Gilly being so much braver than his cowardly self. He's internalized his father's shame and contempt after a lifetime of abuse, and Gilly's will to survive and protect her baby must seem pretty impressive after he kept giving up on the march from the Fist and had to be prodded into leaving Craster's after the mutiny. We see he is capable of great bravery, but he probably wouldn't be if he were alone, with no one to inspire the fighting. When he killed the Other, he was with Grenn and here he has Gilly to defend. He doesn't care enough about himself or have enough confidence to fight only for his own life, so he doesn't credit his own bravery when it seems to come from an outside source.

Gilly's talk of the baby stinking of life makes me wonder what all the Craster family believes or has heard from him about the WWs and his sacrifices. We know they knew what happened to the boy babies, but this is the first mention of the smell of life. Creepy in a different way to have her casually remember the celebrations on her wedding day.

16 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I find it odd that the Others seem like they sent the wights to collect the baby as opposed to one of their own. Maybe there is an Other who is lurking in the background and we just can't see it, but if Gilly is correct that they're there for the baby, it's odd to me that one of the Others wouldn't be the one to move forward to get it. Or is it because of Sam managing to kill that one Other and they're wary? Do we think they even know for sure that Sam has killed one of their guys? 

Also, regarding the weirwood having a different looking face--did it change because of events that have happened since Sam passed it the first time or is it a different tree altogether? Are there any other instances in the books of weirwood faces changing? . 

Maybe they know one of theirs was killed for the first time in eons and are wary of all humans, not knowing it was Sam specifically. Or maybe Gilly was just wrong about the wights wanting her baby. She'd been afraid for her son the whole time, but I guess the wights could have just come on them by chance and not been sent to find them.

It's just a different tree. Sam decides it isn't Whitetree and admits to himself that he's lost. And I think Whitetree was a smaller village in Jon's PoV.

[Constantinople]

On 12/4/2016 at 1:58 PM, Avaleigh said:

I feel like this chapter was mainly about showing us how wights and the Others need to be killed in different ways. The Others can be taken out by dragon glass and Valyrian steel, but the wights need to be touched by fire. 

It does seem odd that the Others and wights are killed in a different manner given that, presumably, the Others somehow re-animate the wights, or there's something about the Others' presence that causes the wights to re-animate.

Unless we're supposed to think of dragonglass and Valyrian steel as a kind of frozen fire.

I don't know.

On 12/4/2016 at 2:23 PM, Lady S. said:

Or maybe Gilly was just wrong about the wights wanting her baby. She'd been afraid for her son the whole time, but I guess the wights could have just come on them by chance and not been sent to find them.

It's quite possible she's wrong.  It's not as if the situation is conducive to cool headed decision making.

Mostly they just seem to be there to make Coldhands entry more dramatic, and to make Sam and Gilly take a flyer on him.  Imagine if they hadn't been attacked by wights and then saw that creeper on an elk.

In any case, for me the creepiest part is recognizing the wights attacking you.

[Avaleigh]

Arya IX

Arya waits until she thinks the Hound is asleep before she attempts to bash his head in with a rock. He easily takes the rock away from her and tells her that he'll hurt her if she tries to do anything like that again. Arya asks him why he doesn't just kill her the way that he killed Mycah, and the Hound responds by yanking her by her shirt and telling her that if she ever says Mycah's name again he'll beat her to the point where she'll wish she'd been killed.

Every night the Hound rolls Arya up in blanket and ties it with rope so that she can't escape. She's convinced that he's taking her back to King's Landing and seems to think that he's still loyal to the Lannisters. She tries to steal his horse at one point, but the animal nearly bites her face off during the attempt. 

The Hound gets some men to ferry them across the Trident and promises to pay them when they get to the other side. The man in charge of the ferry asks the Hound how he can trust that they'll be paid once they cross the water, and the Hound promises the ferryman on his honor as a knight. Arya wants to tell the ferryman that the Hound doesn't have any money and isn't a knight, but decides to stay silent. However, when the ferryman mistakes Arya for being the Hound's son, she screams at the guy that she isn't and thinks to herself that being mistaken as a son of the Hound is even worse than constantly being mistaken for a boy. Sandor angrily shakes Arya after she says that she isn't his son and asks her how many times he needs to remind her to keep her mouth shut.

Arya considers jumping into the river to try and swim away, but worries that she might drown. Just as she seems to think it'll be worth the risk to try jumping into the water, the ferry is nearly overturned by an uprooted tree. The crew manage to keep the boat from full on crashing into the tree but it still makes contact, and one of the men ends up falling overboard. Arya hopes that the guy will safely wash up someplace but doesn't think it's likely that he survived. She decides that she isn't going to risk jumping into the water to try to get away. 

When they finally make it to shore, the ferryman asks for payment and demands extra money for the man he lost on the journey. The Hound gives the guy the IOU slip that the Brotherhood gave him as payment. When the ferryman brings up the fact that Sandor gave him his word as a knight, the Hound tells the guy that it's time he finally learned that knights have no honor.

The Hound tells Arya that she needs to get over her urge to kill him and says that even if she did manage to get away that she'd be caught by someone worse. Arya says that there is no one worse and the Hound replies by saying that Arya doesn't know his brother. Arya reveals that she actually does know Gregor and mentions some of Gregor's men by name. The Hound is surprised to hear this but realizes that Arya is telling the truth, and gets a good laugh out of thinking about how Gregor will respond once he's told that he let Arya Stark slip through his fingers. The Hound tells Arya that he'll be sure to let his brother know about his mistake right before he cuts out his heart.

Arya doesn't understand why the Hound would want to kill his own brother and the Hound asks her if she hasn't ever wanted to kill a brother or possibly a sister. The Hound laughs and sees something in Arya's face that makes him accuse her of wanting to kill Sansa. Arya denies it and says tells the Hound that she wants to kill him. The Hound asks if it's because of Mycah and basically tells Arya that he isn't the monster that she thinks he is even if he has admittedly done things that are considered to be monstrous. He mentions to Arya that he saved Sansa's life back in King's Landing. He also tells Arya that Sansa once sang a song for him, but Arya tells him that she thinks he's lying. The Hound tells Arya that she doesn't know as much as she thinks she does. 

The Hound finally asks Arya where it is she thinks they're headed, and she tells him that she thinks they're headed back to King's Landing so that he can hand her over to Cersei. The Hound tells Arya that he's done with the Lannisters and reveals that they're traveling to the Twins because he wants to get reward money. The Hound says that if Robb has any sense that he'll reward him as well as take him into his service. Arya tells the Hound that Robb will never agree to the idea of taking him into his service.. 

“Then I’ll take as much gold as I can carry, laugh in his face, and ride off. If he doesn’t take me, he’d be wise to kill me, but he won’t. Too much his father’s son, from what I hear. Fine with me. Either way I win. And so do you, she-wolf. So stop whimpering and snapping at me, I’m sick of it. Keep your mouth shut and do as I tell you, and maybe we’ll even be in time for your uncle’s bloody wedding.”

[Avaleigh]

Sandor has to be thinking that Arya is tough indeed. Not only did she meet his brother and successfully keep her identity concealed, but she lived to tell the tale. 

I love how indignant Arya is about he idea of people mistaking a man like the Hound to be her father. She was able to hold her tongue at multiple points during this chapter even when she was sorely tempted to speak out, but this was the one thing she just couldn't pretend to do. 

I do wonder how Sandor would have fit in if Robb had agreed to accept him into his service. He wouldn't have been dealing with as many knights if he'd eventually settled in the North. I guess he'd score some points with Robb and Catelyn if they were to hear the story about how he rescued Sansa, assuming they believed him. 

Interesting that Arya thinks that the Hound is one of the worst men in existence but still seems skeptical that he'd want to kill his brother. 

The Hound has a low opinion of everything and everyone and is obviously an incredibly angry and bitter man, but he still has a sense of humor about life and it makes me think that he has the potential to be, if not happy, at least reasonably content one day.  

[Lady S.]

I feel bad for the ferrymen. I'm sure the Hound would say he taught them a lesson about knights, but it was clearly his size and sword that forced them into it with the promise on his honor only extracted for some reassurance and to avoid feeling like cowards coerced by a scary guy. Half the time he has real points about empty chivalry and the other half he's just using his non-knighthood as license to be a less hypocritical bad guy.

I've always been amused by the image of Arya wrapped up like a burrito to sleep at night. Mostly Sandor is more bark than bite, always threatening to hurt her the next time she does something when Gregor or his goons would have never taken such defiance to begin with, but he acts genuinely scary when she throws Mycah's name in his face again. He probably does even have some respect for her toughness, but being reminded of his past crimes is a worse offense for him than trying to brain him with a rock while he sleeps.

This chapter shows that the list really is just a coping mechanism, at least at this point, rather than a real revengenda she cares about completing. Joffrey and Cersei should be the most important kills on there, but Arya never, ever wants to see them again. She's so afraid of seeing them again that she's willing to risk drowning just to return to wandering alone and defenseless in the riverlands. It's not even really a choice of King's Landing or family, just the options of facing the Lannisters, spending more refugee time in a warzone without even her friends, or just drowning in a flood.

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Interesting that Arya thinks that the Hound is one of the worst men in existence but still seems skeptical that he'd want to kill his brother. 

I think that's just because book Arya has no idea of the Clegane backstory. With as bad as she thinks Sandor is, I'm not sure she'd think he'd balk at kinslaying. She thinks they're both just evil blackhats and probably assumes they're friends, united in their evil.

Man, I know the purists like to harp on the big line changes, but it's the little misses that get me. I can't believe the show passed up the chance for "maybe we’ll even be in time for your uncle’s bloody wedding."

Edited December 6, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Jon VI

Jon warns the people of Mole's Town that the wildlings are coming and gives them instructions to pack up and head for Castle Black. He finally makes it to the Wall and heads into the armory where he talks with Donal Noye. Noye lets Jon know that scouts reported seeing him riding with the wildlings, and Jon explains that he was acting on Qhorin's orders.  Jon asks about the castle's garrison and learns that the men have been ordered to spread out along the Wall. He tells Noye that Bowen Marsh has played right into Mance's hand by spreading their men thin. He says that the attack is going to happen at Castle Black because the wildlings want to get through the gate. 

Noye notices that Jon is wounded and takes him to see Maester Aemon. On the way to see the maester, Jon learns that Ser Wynton Stout has been made castellan and Jon thinks about how Stout has been a ranger at the Wall for eighty years. Noye is unofficially acting as commander since Stout isn't mentally competent. Noye asks Jon about Ghost and Jon explains that he had to leave his direwolf when he climbed the Wall. Noye says that there hasn't been any sign of Ghost and Jon starts wondering if Sam managed to make it back. 

Maester Aemon attends to Jon's wounds and lets him know that the Old Bear was murdered at Craster's Keep by sworn brothers of the Night's Watch. Jon is sad to hear the news and learns the names of some of the men who participated in the murder. Maester Aemon confirms that Bowen Marsh is the Lord Commander until they can hold a choosing. 

A choosing. With Qhorin Halfhand and Ser Jaremy Rykker both dead and Ben Stark still missing, who was there? Not Bowen Marsh or Ser Wynton Stout, that was certain. Had Thoren Smallwood survived the Fist, or Ser Ottyn Wythers? No, it will be Cotter Pyke or Ser Denys Mallister. Which, though? The commanders at the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch were good men, but very different; Ser Denys courtly and cautious, as chivalrous as he was elderly, Pyke younger, bastard-born, rough-tongued, and bold to a fault. Worse, the two men despised each other. The Old Bear had always kept them far apart, at opposite ends of the Wall. The Mallisters had a bone-deep mistrust of the ironborn, Jon knew.

As Maester Aemon works on Jon's leg, Jon tells him about the Magnar of Thenn and how Mance was searching for the Horn of Winter. Maester Aemon is surprised that Mance believes that the horn exists and Jon says that all of the wildlings seem to believe in its existence. Jon is in excruciating pain as his leg is being attended to and starts talking about how he broke his vows with Ygritte. He thinks about how she murdered the old man and how all the man had done was make the mistake of lighting a fire. Jon feels that he shouldn't have fallen in love with her and talks about how he wasn't strong enough. He ends up passing out from the pain and dreams of Ygritte.

When Jon wakes up, Pyp and Grenn are there and start giving him updates on everything that's happened. They mention the names of some of the survivors and when Jon asks about Sam, Grenn brings up the fact Sam killed an Other and says they started calling him Sam the Slayer. Grenn also admits that they left Sam with the Old Bear at Craster's Keep after Sam refused to move. Pyp says there's a chance that Sam is still alive and suggests that Sam might end up surprising them.

Grenn brings Maester Aemon to give Jon more milk of the poppy and Jon ends up being told that Winterfell was put to the torch and Bran and Rickon are dead. Maester Aemon says that Theon was responsible for everything after taking Winterfell in King Balon's name. Grenn tells Jon that his brothers are being avenged and says that Roose Bolton's son has killed all of the ironmen at Winterfell and is slowly flaying Theon inch by inch. 

Jon thinks about how he never liked Theon and remembers how the grey direwolf seemed to know him. He wonders if it's possible that Bran lives on through Summer as Orell lives on through his eagle. Jon can't believe that his little brothers are dead and doesn't think that Theon would do that. He wonders how Winterfell could be gone. 

When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father’s face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn’t, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night’s Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red.

[Lady S.]

An 80+ yo knight who almost drowned in a bowl of soup left in command of the remaining garrison, there's another great example of genius NW management. The Old Bear made a lot of mistakes, but I think he had more practical sense than Bowen, enough to know that titles don't outrank all other factors in times of emergency.  One thing to give a young knight command over two men on his first ranging when he demanded it, another to trust the defense of the Wall to a knight who doesn't demand the privilege and is so old that he can't remember being given it. 

I know the Varamyr prologue is what people mostly point to the theory of Jon spending pre-resurrection time inside Ghost, but it's him wondering if Bran could live on in Summer that feels most convincing. He's confused about the wolf sighting and desperate to believe it means Bran is still out there but is he, also then, aware on some level of the Stark warging?

[benteen]

I loved the "Night of the Living Wights" scene with Sam.  I wish that could have been on the show.

Sandor dealing with Robb and Catelyn is another one of those fascinating what if scenarios.

Quote

An 80+ yo knight who almost drowned in a bowl of soup left in command of the remaining garrison, there's another great example of genius NW management. The Old Bear made a lot of mistakes, but I think he had more practical sense than Bowen, enough to know that titles don't outrank all other factors in times of emergency.  One thing to give a young knight command over two men on his first ranging when he demanded it, another to trust the defense of the Wall to a knight who doesn't demand the privilege and is so old that he can't remember being given it. 

Very true.  I know the Night's Watch vow to serve all my days is important to them but there's seriously nothing wrong with mandatory retirement when you reach a certain age.  Especially in Stout's case.

Donal Noye is one of my favorite minor book characters. 

Nice to see Maester Aemon back.  RIP, Peter Vaughan.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn VI

The Twins are in sight and Catelyn gives Robb another warning about how prickly Lord Walder is. She insists that they take whatever refreshments are offered to them and reminds him that by doing this they'll be protected by the laws of hospitality. Robb promises to eat whatever food is offered to him. 

Grey Wind growls as four of the Frey brothers begin approaching their party. Robb appears to be startled by this and calls his direwolf over to him but Grey Wind leaps towards the Freys instead, and it's only when Catelyn rides between Grey Wind and the brothers that the direwolf heeds Robb's call. Black Walder is angry and accuses Robb of deliberately trying to set his wolf on them. Robb makes it plain that he's there to make his apology and see his uncle get married.

Ser Ryman asks why Jeyne isn't there and says that his father won't be pleased to learn that she's stayed behind. Catelyn makes excuses for Jeyne and the conversation turns to the preparations that have been made for their arrival. Robb's lords bannermen will be allowed to take part in the wedding feast, but Lord Walder says that he can't afford to feed the rest of Robb's host. They won't get any food, but they will be given wine and a few tents to shelter them from the rain.

Edmure complains to Catelyn about Lord Walder not coming out to meet him in person, and Catelyn replies that it probably has to do with him being ninety one years old and not wanting to be out in the rain. Despite what she says to Edmure, she privately wonders if this is going to be the first of many slights to come during their stay. 

When they start crossing the drawbridge, Grey Wind starts howling at the portcullis and bares his teeth. Robb doesn't understand Grey Wind's behavior and Catelyn thinks it's obvious that the direwolf doesn't like being at the Twins. Robb decides not to take Grey Wind into Lord Walder's hall and asks Ser Raynald to stay behind to watch him. 

Lord Walder doesn't bow to Robb and gives his advanced age as an excuse. He tells Edmure that he's the fifth Lord Tully he's known and asks him if he's ready to meet his bride. While they wait for Roslin to be brought to the hall, Walder asks why Jeyne isn't there and the conversation turns to Robb's slight against House Frey. Robb admits that he's there to apologize and beg for forgiveness, and Walder says that since his girls were the ones who were spurned that they should be present to hear his apology. Robb apologizes to the daughters and granddaughters of Lord Frey and acknowledges that there's nothing he can say to make the situation right. Walder agrees with Robb that nothing can be said to make it right and asks that Robb not refuse to dance with his daughters during the wedding feast.

Edmure finally gets to meet Roslin Frey and she turns out to be pretty. Catelyn thinks that Roslin may be a Rosby through her mother and is concerned that she might not be as as fertile as some of the other Frey girls. Edmure is happy and tells Roslin that she's beautiful. He asks her why she's crying and Roslin says that they're tears of joy. Walder interrupts the conversation at this point and says that there will be time for weeping and whispering after the wedding. 

Just as Walder suggests that his guests head for their accommodations, Catelyn remembers that they haven't had eaten anything yet and asks for food for their party. Walder obliges and raises a toast to his guests as he tells them that they're welcome beneath his roof and at his table. Catelyn feels safe once she's had a little wine and bread and when she's taken to see their accommodations, she's surprised at how nice their are. 

After telling Edmure that they should post their own guards, Catelyn thinks about how glad she'll be to be away from the Twins and wonders about what her captivity will be like at Seagard. Edmure asks her what she thinks about Roslin and Catelyn replies that she thinks Roslin's sweet, but privately thinks that childbirth is likely to be rough on her. Edmure is sure that Roslin likes him but doesn't understand why she was crying. Catelyn says that tears aren't uncommon for a girl right before a wedding and thinks about how Lysa cried the morning before she married Jon Arryn. 

Edmure talks about how surprised he is at how pretty Roslin is especially in comparison with some of the other Frey girls. Edmure wonders why Walder would allow him to have an attractive bride and is suspicious that there's some sort of catch. He suggests that Roslin may be barren but Catelyn doesn't think this is likely since Walder wants his grandson to be Lord of Riverrun one day. 

Catelyn gets changed and then goes to see the castle's maester. She asks about Roslin's fertility and the maester tells her that it shouldn't be a problem and mentions the fact that Roslin's mother gave birth to five children who lived past infancy. Catelyn goes to see Robb after leaving the maester and finds him with the Umbers, Wendel Manderly, Robin Flint, and Roose Bolton. Catelyn hears more about what happened at Winterfell and learns that Cley Cerwyn and Leobald Tallhart are dead. Roose mentions that some of the people of Winterfell were taken back to the Dreadfort by Ramsay, and Catelyn tells Roose that his bastard has been accused of a bunch of crimes including rape and murder. 

“Yes,” Roose Bolton said. “His blood is tainted, that cannot be denied. Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless. When the ironmen cut down Ser Rodrik, and Leobald Tallhart soon after, it fell to Ramsay to lead the battle, and he did. He swears that he shall not sheathe his sword so long as a single Greyjoy remains in the north. Perhaps such service might atone in some small measure for whatever crimes his bastard blood has led him to commit.” He shrugged. “Or not. When the war is done, His Grace must weigh and judge. By then I hope to have a trueborn son by Lady Walda.”

Catelyn realizes what a cold man Roose is and thinks to herself that this isn't the first time she's had that impression. Robb asks if Ramsay mentioned Theon and Roose shows them all a piece of human skin and admits that his son has been flaying Theon. Roose offers the skin to Catelyn as a token of revenge for Bran and Rickon and Catelyn has to resist the urge to take the piece of skin and clutch it to her heart. Robb wants Theon dead and says that flaying him won't bring back Bran and Rickon. Roose reminds them all of the value Theon has now that Balon is dead and suggests that they keep him alive as a bargaining chip for when they eventually negotiate with the ironborn. Robb sees the sense in keeping Theon alive for the time being and gives orders for him to remain at the Dreadfort until they take back the north. 

Roose talks about the men he lost on the Trident and says they were mostly Norrey, Locke, Burley, and Manderly men. Gregor Clegane was leading the attack and Catelyn thinks about how hearing Clegane's name always means bad news. She wonders if Robb will have to march south in order to deal with him. Roose says that he left six hundred men to guard the ruby ford and says that as long as the river runs high, Gregor and his men won't be able to cross. Robb compliments Roose on keeping the Mountain back and Roose brings up the losses at Duskendale. Robb promises that Robett Glover is going to answer for what happened at Duskendale. 

Catelyn asks Roose how many men he's brought with him and Roose studies her face for a moment before answering that he's brought three thousand five hundred total. Robb thinks this should be enough and gives Roose the command of his rear guard. Robb says that they're going to head for the Neck as soon as Edmure's marriage is consummated. He says they're finally going home. 

[Avaleigh]

I can't help but see Walder Frey as this medieval version of The Simpsons' Mr. Burns when Burns is going through his Howard Hughes phase. I definitely hear David Bradley's voice though. 

I think the show did a nice job of adapting the scene where Walder is introducing his daughters and granddaughters. The moment where he tries to think of that one girl's name and fails after several tries and makes it clear that he doesn't care anyway. Imagining Edmure's facial expressions throughout the introductions to the Frey girls definitely amused me.

Edmure's reaction is understandable but funny too. He totally wants a pretty bride and has been talking about it the entire way there and once he gets what he wants, he's sure that there has to be something wrong her. 

The twins Serra and Sarra made me think of Erryk and Arryk. Way for their parents to make sure that everyone confuses them for life.

Is it weird that Roslin already knows? Couldn't that potentially mess things up since she apparently can't control her emotions. Walder seemed concerned enough to cut in on their conversation.

I'm surprised that Robb needed it spelled out for him that Theon has value as a hostage. I guess Tywin must have similar thoughts regarding what will be done with Theon in order to get the ironborn on their side further down the road. I wonder if it's already come up during his communication with Roose. I'm just curious as to what exactly Ramsay was likely told as far as keeping Theon alive. Whatever instructions Roose gave it seems like they weren't terribly specific apart from keeping him breathing. 

Why does Roose give Catelyn that look? What does he think she could possibly be trying to do by asking the question? 

What's surprising to me about Grey Wind's behavior is how Robb doesn't seem to understand it or get where the animosity is coming from. He seems shocked and a little out of control, and it reminded me of Arya losing control of Nymeria during the fight with Joffrey. 

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Is it weird that Roslin already knows? Couldn't that potentially mess things up since she apparently can't control her emotions. Walder seemed concerned enough to cut in on their conversation.

I'm surprised that Robb needed it spelled out for him that Theon has value as a hostage. I guess Tywin must have similar thoughts regarding what will be done with Theon in order to get the ironborn on their side further down the road. I wonder if it's already come up during his communication with Roose. I'm just curious as to what exactly Ramsay was likely told as far as keeping Theon alive. Whatever instructions Roose gave it seems like they weren't terribly specific apart from keeping him breathing. 

Why does Roose give Catelyn that look? What does he think she could possibly be trying to do by asking the question? 

Maybe they tried to keep it secret but the bride couldn't be completely in the dark about her own wedding. However, narratively, the tears are really just a clue for Catelyn and the audience, adding to the foreboding atmosphere. Noteworthy that two of Roslin's full brothers, Olyvar and Perwyn, had to be sent away and likely weren't let in on the plans. The other one who helps introduce her, Benfrey, must be a real asshole not just to participate in the Red Wedding but to use his sister this way knowing how distressed she was by it. Reminds me of Merrett Frey's upcoming musing that Freys could only trust their full siblings but sometimes even one of them wouldn't be trustworthy.

I wonder why Roose even felt the need to explain all that to Robb seeing as Robb's wishes regarding Theon no longer mattered. I guess he was just amusing himself playacting with his prey before the kill. He didn't need to reveal anything about Theon really. Could have let them believe he escaped but instead he offers Theon's skin to Catelyn as a gift and she has to hold herself back to avoid clutching it to her stoneheart. That must have been amusing for Roose and perhaps talking about Theon's ultimate fate was a fun game too. It was a bit ironic that Cat, the Kingslayer freer, was outraged to think he meant to trade a hostage who had killed her two younger sons, though the circumstances were different with the Karstarks, who were soldiers in combat instead of murdered children (and royal children at that).

Perhaps he was annoyed with the pointedness of her question as she changed the subject while he was amusing himself blaming Robett Glover for Duskendale. Perhaps he wanted to see if she was suspicious about how many men he'd just lost before revealing the survivors were either his own men or the leaderless Karstark infantry. Or maybe he was just taking a pause to enjoy letting her worry about if he had enough men, knowing he had just enough for the conflict he actually meant them to fight in, after ridding himself of more loyal men who'd get in the way.

I, too, always enjoy all the humor from Walder in this arrival scene, even knowing what's coming. It's one aspect of this that translated seamlessly to the show, with only superficial changes. Edmure's reaction faces were a real highlight of the episode. Fitting that book Edmure is so incredulous of Roslin's beauty that he starts to question her fertility, while Catelyn immediately considers if her build is good for childbearing. And Walder is just petty enough that she doesn't completely dismiss Edmure's worry.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Arya X

Arya and the Hound are making their way to the Twins disguised as a farmer and his son. Arya considers revealing herself to the first outriders they come across but resists because she doesn't recognize the sigil they're wearing. She thinks that she might have told the men her identity if they'd been sporting Umber or Glover sigils.

They make it past the first check point and the Hound reveals to Arya that he fought against and knows one of the knights who just allowed them to pass. Arya wonders why the knight didn't recognize the Hound, and he says it's because all knights are fools and adds that the guy probably thought it was beneath him to pay attention to some low end farmer. The Hound says that if Arya keeps her eyes down and maintains a respectful tone, that the average knight will be unlikely to notice her. 

Arya's stomach is in knots and she thinks about how she should be excited because they've nearly arrived. She thinks about how she had a horrible dream the night before but can't recall the contents of it. She only knows that the dream has made her feel uneasy all day long and she has to tell herself to be strong. She remembers the words Syrio taught her and tries to tell herself that there shouldn't be any danger now that the only army that's close by is Robb's. She's concerned about Roose Bolton and wonders if there's any way that he might have told her mother about the things she's done. She thinks it's likely that he won't even recognize her, but then starts worrying that Robb and Catelyn won't recognize her either. 

They can hear the music before they see the castles, and the Hound says that they've missed the wedding but the feast appears to still be going on. The music is louder as they approach the castles and Arya notices that the musicians in the castles are playing different songs; she thinks that the music sounds more like a battle than a song. The Hound laughs when Arya comments on how the musicians aren't very good. Arya is disappointed that the rain is making it impossible for her to identify the banners of the northmen. 

They're stopped at another checkpoint by Bolton guards and are told that the castle is closed. The Hound says that he was told to see either the steward or cook, but the Bolton sergeant says that the lords aren't to be disturbed and gives orders for them to unload their goods near one of the three big feast tents. 

They pass a bunch of tents and Arya notices the one that belongs to Lord Smallwood. She thinks about her time at Acorn Hall and remembers how Lady Smallwood told her that she's pretty.

But for every shimmering silk pavilion there were two dozen of felt or canvas, opaque and dark. There were barracks tents too, big enough to shelter two score footsoldiers, though even those were dwarfed by the three great feast tents. The drinking had been going on for hours, it seemed. Arya heard shouted toasts and the clash of cups, mixed in with all the usual camp sounds, horses whinnying and dogs barking, wagons rumbling through the dark, laughter and curses, the clank and clatter of steel and wood. The music grew still louder as they approached the castle, but under that was a deeper, darker sound: the river, the swollen Green Fork, growling like a lion in its den.

Arya keeps looking for a familiar face or a badge with a direwolf on it, and thinks that the Twins look like something out of one of Old Nan's scary stories. She hears men making toasts to Edmure and Roslin and also hears a toast being given to 'the Young Wolf and Queen Jeyne'. Arya wonders who Queen Jeyne is and thinks that the only queen she knows is Cersei. 

The Hound ignores the orders they were given by the sergeant and continues to head for the castle.

[John Potts]

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:10 PM, Avaleigh said:

Is it weird that Roslin already knows? Couldn't that potentially mess things up since she apparently can't control her emotions. Walder seemed concerned enough to cut in on their conversation.

I figure they probably went:

"Make sure you keep Edmure busy"
"That shouldn't be too hard, hur-hur-hur!"

- so Roslin is probably aware that she's being used to some extent (plus, as Cat observes, many brides are nervous on their wedding day). The Freys want to keep Edmure alive, at least until he has a son, to cement their claim on the Riverlands, so they want to avoid the awkwardness of Ed being collateral damage.

[WearyTraveler]

I remember that upon first read, I kept feeling a sense of foreboding while reading these last two chapters.  I was suspicious of everything, but I never imagined the depth and breadth of Walder Frey's vengeance.  I was as unprepared for it as the Northerners were.

[nodorothyparker]

Playing a massive game of catch up today.  

One of the things that sticks out for me is how readily everyone in Jon's chapter accepts Jon's story when he comes riding in in a wildling cloak with an arrow sticking out of him despite how Alliser Thorne will act later.  Donal Noye at least asks if he needs to kill him for desertion but they're all remarkably lacking in suspicion that everything didn't happen exactly as Jon says it did, up to including doing it on the orders of Qhorin Halfhand, who's now conveniently dead.  I suppose it helps that there's only a skeleton crew at the Wall with more important things to worry about and it's a recognizably wildling arrow in his leg.   Jon interestingly compares choosing his vows to the Nights Watch over Ygritte to how he imagines Ned must have chosen his vows to Catelyn to his mother, again making me wonder what if anything Ned ever bothered to tell him on the subject.  With the news from Winterfell, we get confirmation that Jon never liked or trusted Theon.

Roose waving Theon's hand skin around before the wedding is just hilariously disgusting.  I get that the whole flaying thing is on his sigil but not one person thought to question the appropriateness of that, really?  I found it interesting too that Robb didn't immediately recognize Theon's value as a hostage to be killed later or that Roose bothered to even try to spell it out for him knowing that he's miles away from being able to do anything about Theon's situation and will be dead shortly anyway.  Roose pretty much idles on creepy to the point that no one seems to notice any weirdness with him here. 

I can't read this entire section of chapters without wondering as well just how much Roslin knows.  Her tears could be no more than what Catelyn thinks is a case of nerves or it could be knowing that her family's about to do something unspeakably awful while she's been ordered to consummate a doomed marriage.  It's hard to imagine that she hasn't picked up at least some idea that they're about to do something that involves a lot of weaponry at what's supposed to be a happy social occasion but then we really don't know what life is like at the Twins on a good day with all the numerous siblings and half siblings and bastards and grandchildren and great-grandchildren all sitting around waiting for old Walder to die to see if they can move up in the succession any.  Maybe it's normal for the threat of death to hang over dinner.

Walder with the daughters and granddaughters is funny to me too in a horrible way and the show did do a good job of translating that scene.  Edmure's obsession with the idea that of course Walder is going to marry him to a troll almost borders on tiresome, but I love that as soon as Edmure gets to see for himself that Roslin isn't hideous he immediately starts attributing all sort of positive attributes to her (she's gentle, she's tenderhearted, etc.) on the basis of about two sentences' worth of communication before Debbie Downering it that well then she must be infertile.

The concept of guest right as its used throughout the series and the apparent need for it fascinates me.  Unfortunately, it only works if both sides agree to adhere to the basic guidelines of it.  As is often the case where Catelyn's concerned, she completely refuses to see that the other side isn't playing by the same rules.  There's lots of little niggling things here that are setting off alarm bells that something's not right but she's putting all her faith in an offering of salt and bread that she pointedly had to ask for.

[Constantinople]

16 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I can't read this entire section of chapters without wondering as well just how much Roslin knows.  Her tears could be no more than what Catelyn thinks is a case of nerves or it could be knowing that her family's about to do something unspeakably awful while she's been ordered to consummate a doomed marriage.  It's hard to imagine that she hasn't picked up at least some idea that they're about to do something that involves a lot of weaponry at what's supposed to be a happy social occasion but then we really don't know what life is like at the Twins on a good day with all the numerous siblings and half siblings and bastards and grandchildren and great-grandchildren all sitting around waiting for old Walder to die to see if they can move up in the succession any.  Maybe it's normal for the threat of death to hang over dinner.

This makes me wonder if perhaps Roslin didn't know anything and truly was weeping tears of joy because she thought she'd be getting away from the trolls holding her hostage her family.

I know I'd be happy to get away from the Freys.

[nodorothyparker]

I suppose that's always a possibility as well.

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Roose waving Theon's hand skin around before the wedding is just hilariously disgusting.  I get that the whole flaying thing is on his sigil but not one person thought to question the appropriateness of that, really?  I found it interesting too that Robb didn't immediately recognize Theon's value as a hostage to be killed later or that Roose bothered to even try to spell it out for him knowing that he's miles away from being able to do anything about Theon's situation and will be dead shortly anyway.  Roose pretty much idles on creepy to the point that no one seems to notice any weirdness with him here. 

What should really be ringing alarm bells is that Ramsay was supposed to be dead and Roose never explains or mentions that little mix-up.  Catelyn brings up Ramsay's accused crimes but not how she only heard about this because Rodrik said he'd been killed for his crimes.  And she thinks about how she's observed before how cold-blooded Roose is but doesn't remember that the last time she thought this was when Roose sent a message washing his hands of Ramsay after Rodrik supposedly killed him. This is something I wonder about with book-first readers. Even if a reader doesn't remember that letter or catch that Roose lies to Robb's face about ordering the disaster at Duskendale, you'd remember how the Sack of Winterfell really went, so isn't Roose repeating the Freys' account of Ramsay being the big hero super suspicious? Especially after the preceding chapters with Jaime, how surprising was it really for Roose to kill Robb? Having gone into these books knowing most of what happened, it's sometimes hard to imagine what it must have been to go into them as a sweet summer child before the show happened.

 

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

One of the things that sticks out for me is how readily everyone in Jon's chapter accepts Jon's story when he comes riding in in a wildling cloak with an arrow sticking out of him despite how Alliser Thorne will act later.  Donal Noye at least asks if he needs to kill him for desertion but they're all remarkably lacking in suspicion that everything didn't happen exactly as Jon says it did, up to including doing it on the orders of Qhorin Halfhand, who's now conveniently dead.  I suppose it helps that there's only a skeleton crew at the Wall with more important things to worry about and it's a recognizably wildling arrow in his leg.  

The wildling arrow is probably a big factor. If he really turned his cloak, why then return to Castle Black, get himself injured, warn the NW about his new friends and put himself on the opposing side of Styr's planned attack? There's also the fact that Qhorin was a known badass while Jon had never even been in a fight outside the practice yard before going beyond the Wall. Hearing that Jon killed him would have been hard to believe not just because Jon is an honorable Stark but because the great Halfhand was felled by a kid. The wildlings were surprised about Jon killing Qhorin and were right to be since Jon only managed it with Ghost's help. Qhorin wanting Jon to kill him makes more sense than Jon betraying and killing him, then changing his mind and betraying the wildlings, knowing that the NW might execute him for oathbreaking anyway.

[nodorothyparker]

14 hours ago, Lady S. said:

What should really be ringing alarm bells is that Ramsay was supposed to be dead and Roose never explains or mentions that little mix-up.  Catelyn brings up Ramsay's accused crimes but not how she only heard about this because Rodrik said he'd been killed for his crimes.  And she thinks about how she's observed before how cold-blooded Roose is but doesn't remember that the last time she thought this was when Roose sent a message washing his hands of Ramsay after Rodrik supposedly killed him. This is something I wonder about with book-first readers. Even if a reader doesn't remember that letter or catch that Roose lies to Robb's face about ordering the disaster at Duskendale, you'd remember how the Sack of Winterfell really went, so isn't Roose repeating the Freys' account of Ramsay being the big hero super suspicious? Especially after the preceding chapters with Jaime, how surprising was it really for Roose to kill Robb? Having gone into these books knowing most of what happened, it's sometimes hard to imagine what it must have been to go into them as a sweet summer child before the show happened.

Yep.  I made the mistake of wandering into a discussion I probably should have avoided if I didn't really want to know before I ever got this far in the book, so I went into it generally knowing what was coming and seeing the anvils falling all over the place.  Thus it's really hard for me to gauge just how much of this really would have registered if I was coming to it totally unspoiled.  But very good point that what Roose is saying here completely contradicts the earlier account of the sack of Winterfell and that weird cold letter that even Catelyn was paying enough attention to at the time to note.  Maybe she just thinks the news of Ramsay's death was a miscommunication or maybe she's too busy looking for slights from old Walder and chasing down fertility reports to really think much beyond that.  Again, I chalk a lot of this up to the fact that Roose idles on creepy and unnerving so it's probably hard to focus on any one thing that he's doing or saying that feels wrong.  I honestly couldn't remember enough of the details about Duskendale without looking it up to be sure that he was lying outright but it certainly felt like a lie that everyone just accepts on face value because they're more preoccupied with the latest news about Lannister troop movements and what to do with Theon.  The Northerners don't really come across as great multitaskers here.

I would think the big thing in all this that might give a newbie pause is the fact that we know Roose just came from holding/hosting Jaime.  We saw it.  We know that he sent him on his way back to Kings Landing, disregarding a couple of rewards offered and what would have generally been expected of a bannerman still loyal to the North.  We also know from his talk with Jaime that he considers the war lost and doesn't give two shits about Catelyn trying to privately exchange prisoners.   Catelyn of course doesn't know about any of this, but we do.  So even if you're not suspecting a massacre on the scale of the red wedding coming, it's not really much of a stretch to think we're about to see a pretty large betrayal and Roose realigning himself with the winner.

Edited December 16, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

On 12/14/2016 at 5:59 PM, Avaleigh said:

Arya's stomach is in knots and she thinks about how she should be excited because they've nearly arrived. She thinks about how she had a horrible dream the night before but can't recall the contents of it. She only knows that the dream has made her feel uneasy all day long and she has to tell herself to be strong.

I hadn't remembered this detail. I wonder if her forgotten dream was of the prophetic variety.

Poor Arya, having to get another terrible haircut on top of everything else.

The Hound is so big that it feels pretty lucky he'd just chance upon a farmer his own size to rob cart and clothes from. What are the odds of a good fit like that?

I guess Lady Whent is still alive somewhere, then? Or else she's just believed to be alive because no one really knows.

I love the increasingly sinister atmosphere with the river "growling like a lion" and the Twins looking like a place out of one of Old Nan's spooky tales.

[nodorothyparker]

The atmosphere and growing sense of menace even if you can't quite figure out what exactly isn't right yet is great.  It does seem like a sheer happy coincidence that the Hound just happened to meet a farmer who had a cart suitable for the subterfuge he was trying to pull and he just happened to have clothes that fit him and could hide his face.

This chapter has a tantalizing what-if followup to the last Arya chapter where the Hound announced his intentions to offer himself in service to Robb after he hands Arya over.  The Hound is determined here to get to Robb before anyone realizes who he is so the first time they meet he isn't in chains to make his case.  As dourly honor-bound and by the book as Catelyn and Robb are it's fun to imagine how that conversation might have gone.  They've got someone who unknown to them is about to spectacularly switch sides on them in their very midst, but I don't know that they would have even considered such a thing possible had the Hound offered it to them.  It's hard to envision them trusting him, particularly given the vicious reputation of both Clegene brothers at this point, and it's not like he brings any additional men or resources to sweeten the offer.  They're still dealing with the fallout of both Theon and Karstark betraying Robb, and Robb's currently in the middle of his own apology tour for breaking a betrothal he didn't personally make.  

Considering what we know is about to happen, it very likely saves Arya's life by not getting her there but a part of me is still a little sad that Catelyn doesn't get at least a moment of knowing that both of her daughters were in fact alive.  I suppose there's another what-if there had Roose realized the real Arya Stark was right there and within his grasp so they wouldn't have had to bother with the pretense of a fake one.

I do like the little details of Arya noting that it's Bolton men telling them the castle is closed and thinking the music she's hearing is really terrible.

Edited December 18, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

On 12/18/2016 at 0:58 PM, nodorothyparker said:

This chapter has a tantalizing what-if followup to the last Arya chapter where the Hound announced his intentions to offer himself in service to Robb after he hands Arya over.  The Hound is determined here to get to Robb before anyone realizes who he is so the first time they meet he isn't in chains to make his case.  As dourly honor-bound and by the book as Catelyn and Robb are it's fun to imagine how that conversation might have gone.  They've got someone who unknown to them is about to spectacularly switch sides on them in their very midst, but I don't know that they would have even considered such a thing possible had the Hound offered it to them.  It's hard to envision them trusting him, particularly given the vicious reputation of both Clegene brothers at this point, and it's not like he brings any additional men or resources to sweeten the offer.  

Not to mention the Hound's interpersonal skills are somewhat lacking. Going on about how he loves killing people and hates everything else is not exactly a great way to win people over. I'd love to know how Sandor would make his case and how hard he'd try to sell himself. I don't think he would really just go merrily on his way with a ransom if they rejected him. That blow would probably sting him harder than he'd ever expect as I think having a new king and a new life would mean more to him than any gold. He'd been a loyal dog for most of his life and was lost without a master, as the BwB figured out. I don't think he had any real goal in mind stalking them all over for however long after they set him free. He just didn't know what else to do with himself, which was the same reason the Mad Huntsman captured him in the first place, just passed out drunk under a tree. Following the BwB after it should have been clear he wasn't getting his money back was desperate behavior, as getting his hands on Arya was just another lucky chance which he couldn't have counted on.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn VII

The music at the wedding is loud, the pounding of the drums is particularly intense, and Catelyn only seems to vaguely recognize the songs the musicians are playing. She's seated between Ryman Frey and Roose Bolton, and notices that Ser Ryman is drinking heavily. Roose isn't eating or drinking very much and Catelyn thinks it's because the food they're being served is terrible. Robb eats his food without complaint and Edmure doesn't really notice the subpar fare because he only has eyes for his bride. Watching her brother and Roslin makes Catelyn think about wedding feast that she and Ned had.

Catelyn thinks that Roslin's smile looks as though someone's sewn it onto her face, but decides that she's probably just nervous about the bedding. Robb is seated between two of the prettier Frey girls and obliges Lord Walder's request by dancing with all of his daughters. 

Walder has been cheap on the food but isn't holding back on the booze, and several people including the Greatjon are already drunk. Smalljon, Robin Flint, Dacey Mormont, and Patrek Mallister are all guarding Robb for the evening and aren't drinking. Catelyn is comforted by the sight of everyone's swordbelts hanging on pegs along the walls. 

Lady Walda Bolton chats with Ser Wendel and tells him that everyone thought Roose would choose to marry her cousin Fair Walda, but says that Roose chose to marry her instead because Lord Frey offered him his bride's weight in silver as her dowry. 

Catelyn wonders if there's every been a less joyful wedding and tells herself that they only have to get through the next few hours and then Robb will be off to another battle that he'll win. She wishes that Lord Walder hadn't insisted that Grey Wind be kept out of the hall but Walder gives Grey Wind's aggressive behavior earlier towards his grandsons as an excuse, and says that the wedding won't take place unless Robb agrees to keep his direwolf out of the hall. Robb is furious and protests a little, but ultimately gives in. 

Roose goes off in search of a privy and Robb comes over to take his seat. He tells his mother that they only have a few more hours to go and will soon be able to leave. He asks Ryman where Olyvar is and tells him that he wants Olyvar to squire for him when he goes north. Ryman says that Olyvar is gone and mumbles something about 'duty' as the reason. Robb waits for Ryman to give more details, but Ryman stays quiet. Robb asks his mother if she wants to dance but she declines and suggests he dance with one of Lord Walder's daughters. 

Catelyn makes polite conversation with Ryman as he sits there drinking and sweating bullets. After she questions him about whether or not a relative of his is going to sing for them, he excuses himself and staggers towards the door. 

Lord Walder announces that it's time for the bedding and Roslin's face goes white after he says this. Catelyn wonders if Roslin is more nervous about the bedding ceremony or the actual consummation. She thinks about her own bedding ceremony and wonders how many of the men who are participating in Roslin's will be dead within the year. 

Edmure seems to be enjoying himself as women start joking with him and stripping him out of his clothes, but Roslin seems frightened and soon starts crying. They're both carried from the hall and leave a trail of clothes behind them. Catelyn sees that Robb has stayed behind and worries that Walder will somehow see an insult to his daughter in this. She considers telling Robb to join in with the bedding ceremony when she realizes that other people have stayed behind too.

Catelyn sees Dacey Mormont touch Edwyn Frey's arm as she asks him to dance. Edwyn pulls violently away from Dacey and tells her that he's done dancing for the evening. Dacey's face turns pale and Catelyn instantly knows that something isn't right. Wendel Manderly notices Catelyn's body language and asks her if anything is wrong, but she doesn't answer. She instead goes after Edwyn as she hears the musicians beginning to play "The Rains of Castamere". Catelyn grabs Edywn's arm as he's hurrying towards a door and feels iron rings beneath his silk clothing. After she feels the presence of the iron, she slaps Edwyn's face so hard that she breaks his lip. She starts putting the pieces together of the day together and understands now why Olyvar is missing and why Roslin was crying. 

Edwyn shoves Catelyn away from him and when Robb moves to block Edwyn's way, he's hit with an arrow beneath his shoulder and gets another bolt in the leg. Robb falls after his leg is hit and when Catelyn goes to run to him, she's hit in the back and falls to the ground. She watches as the northmen are murdered while they try to defend themselves and protect their king. 

Catelyn’s back was on fire. I have to reach him. The Smalljon bludgeoned Ser Raymund Frey across the face with a leg of mutton. But when he reached for his swordbelt a crossbow bolt drove him to his knees. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. She saw Lucas Blackwood cut down by Ser Hosteen Frey. One of the Vances was hamstrung by Black Walder as he was wrestling with Ser Harys Haigh. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours. The crossbows took Donnel Locke, Owen Norrey, and half a dozen more. Young Ser Benfrey had seized Dacey Mormont by the arm, but Catelyn saw her grab up a flagon of wine with her other hand, smash it full in his face, and run for the door. It flew open before she reached it. Ser Ryman Frey pushed into the hall, clad in steel from helm to heel. A dozen Frey men-at-arms packed the door behind him. They were armed with heavy longaxes.

Catelyn screams for mercy just before Dacey is taken out with an axe to the stomach by Ryman. More northmen begin pouring into the hall and for a brief moment Catelyn thinks that they're about to be rescued, only to watch in horror as one of the men decapitates Smalljon Umber. 

Lord Walder is watching the violent scene from his throne and he seems like he can't get enough of what he's witnessing. Catelyn notices a dagger on the ground and tells herself that she's going to kill Walder Frey. She crawls towards the blade and picks it up. She tells herself that the least she can do is kill an old man. 

As Robb struggles to rise to his feet, Catelyn sees that he has three arrows in his body now. Walder signals for the musicians to stop playing, apart from a single drummer. Catelyn hears Grey Wind howling outside. 

Lord Walder addresses Robb and laughs about the fact that he's just killed a bunch of Robb's men. He mockingly suggests that an apology will make everything okay, but his taunting of Robb is interrupted when Catelyn grabs the feeble and mentally disabled Jinglebell Frey. She pulls Jinglebell out from his hiding place and calls out to Lord Walder. 

The beating of the drum continues as Catelyn holds the dagger to Jinglebell's throat. She asks Walder to put an end to what's happening and tells him to be content with repaying betrayal with betrayal. She pleads with Walder to allow Robb to live and swears by the old gods and the new that they won't take any vengeance. Walder tells her that he'd have to be a fool to believe that they won't retaliate against him one day if he allows Robb to live. Catelyn offers up herself and Edmure as hostages if Edmure hasn't already been killed. She again asks Walder to let Robb go. 

Robb calls out to his mother and his voice is a faint whisper. He calls out for Jeyne and Grey Wind, and Catelyn tells her son to go to his direwolf and walk away. Walder asks Catelyn why he'd allow Robb to walk away, and Catelyn makes it clear that she'll kill Jinglebell if they don't let her son go. Walder responds by telling Catelyn that Jinglebell is only a grandson and "never was much use". 

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” He thrust his longsword through her son’s heart, and twisted.

Catelyn retaliates by sawing Jinglebell's throat open. She saws at his throat until she hits the bone and eventually, someone takes the dagger away from her. She's overwhelmed with tears and grief, and soon begins raking her face with her fingers until she bleeds. 

It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb... Robb... please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting... The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. “Mad,” someone said, “she’s lost her wits,” and someone else said, “Make an end,” and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she’d done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold

[Lady S.]

Can we start just by talking about how messed up the bedding ceremony is, even without a massacre? First of all, I've always been weirded out by Catelyn thinking she's just not in the mood to help strip Edmure and he'd have more fun with flirty Freys, as if he'd expect his sister to join in if she weren't such a wet blanket. And here a father might get offended if a guest wasn't itching to see his daughter naked. "Most brides tried to return the banter, or at least pretended to enjoy it" and the line about it being different when it's your bedding make it sound as if women know that this may be fun for the groom but never for the bride, yet it's just something they have to get through and are expected to play along with. No one really cares how the bride is feeling so Roslin's crying and trembling only stands out to Catelyn. who was more right than she knew to wonder how many of the men in that room would die soon. (I'm pretty sure that being stripped by the opposite sex and undressed before reaching the bedchamber are GRRM twists on actual bedding customs.)

I doubt I would have been confused about Robb's unnamed murderer if I wasn't already spoiled, but the first time I read this it did slip by what the pain in Catelyn's back was. I thought her getting hit by a crossbow bolt was a show invention. 

Anyway, happy holidays, everyone!

[Avaleigh]

Happy Holidays, everyone! :)

Man, this chapter is rough. 

I have to say that I definitely, definitely prefer the show change where Catelyn gets a weird vibe from Roose only to look and see that he's wearing his armor. That was probably my favorite face slap in the history of television. It's good here too but we don't know Edwyn as well as we know Roose, so the show moment worked better for me.

I wonder what was going through Dacey's head at that moment? She doesn't say anything but she clearly knows what's up after she touches Edwyn, so I wonder what she did in the few moments leading up to full chaos breaking out. Her death really gave me a pang and I'm curious to know if we'll hear Maege's reaction first hand when she finds out. I can't recall if we catch up with the female Mormonts in ADWD apart from knowing that Jon gets little Lyanna's letter. 

Ryman really is the worst. The fact that he plainly feels guilty makes his behavior even more despicable to me. I doubt Black Walder gives a shit or feels even a shred of guilt, but Ryman at least seems to have some vague sense of right and wrong and is hating that he's about to participate in something so heinous, but it doesn't stop him and that to me puts him right up there with the worst of the Freys. 

Yeah, the bedding tradition is pretty gross but I was always on the fence with the show putting in the line that Ned didn't allow the bedding ceremony to take place. I sort of like the idea that Ned was more sensitive than the average guy when it would come to something like a bedding ceremony, but of course we see in the books that this isn't the case at all and he certainly wasn't trying to break the jaws of his men for checking out his wife as they strip her naked. 

This makes me wonder if Lysa and Jon had a bedding ceremony and what Lysa's state of mind was during it. 

Interestingly, I think the one time we are shown some male sensitivity regarding the bedding ceremony, it's with two Lannister characters. Tyrion is the one who refuses to have the ceremony, but it's Tywin who permits Tyrion and Sansa to get away with not doing it over the King's orders. 

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Can we start just by talking about how messed up the bedding ceremony is, even without a massacre? First of all, I've always been weirded out by Catelyn thinking she's just not in the mood to help strip Edmure and he'd have more fun with flirty Freys, as if he'd expect his sister to join in if she weren't such a wet blanket. And here a father might get offended if a guest wasn't itching to see his daughter naked. "Most brides tried to return the banter, or at least pretended to enjoy it" and the line about it being different when it's your bedding make it sound as if women know that this may be fun for the groom but never for the bride, yet it's just something they have to get through and are expected to play along with. No one really cares how the bride is feeling so Roslin's crying and trembling only stands out to Catelyn. who was more right than she knew to wonder how many of the men in that room would die soon. (I'm pretty sure that being stripped by the opposite sex and undressed before reaching the bedchamber are GRRM twists on actual bedding customs.)

The whole thing is just weird and bizarre. Catelyn's thought process is basically like, 'Yeah, if I were a cool and good humored sister, I'd totally be having fun and participating in stripping down my brother.' When I think of some of the stronger sibling relationships in the series, I have difficulty imagining these siblings participating in the bedding of the other. I mean, I can't see Oberyn Martell leading the pack in stripping his sister Elia down while a bunch of other men join in and watch. Jojen and Meera? Robb and Sansa? I just can't see that happening. I could see Viserys being into something like that. Not many others. 

Makes me wonder where Jaime was during Robert and Cersei's bedding ceremony.

Add in the fact that it isn't just the weirdness of immediate family. Would you really want your best friend, cousin, sibling, aunt/uncle, frenemy, guest-that-you-don't recognize, to strip down your new wife/husband? How about when there's a power imbalance and you have guests that outrank the married couple? When I think of how the bedding ceremony went for Tywin and Joanna, it's obvious that these ceremonies can cross into uncomfortable territory.

Just the fact that Catelyn fears that Walder will be insulted at the idea of Robb not wanting to see his daughter naked suggests that the bedding ceremony is about titillation on some level. 

Jinglebell Frey's life sucked from start to finish. Jeez. I'm glad that the show made the change to it being Walder's young wife because I thought "I'll find another" was a stronger line. I feel like even Craster would blink over how cold that shit was.  

I liked the moment where Roose reminds Walder that he still holds his grandsons at the Dreadfort. 

I started going down the 'what if' path regarding Theon being present at the Red Wedding and had never left Robb's side, but I'm not sure that the RW would have even taken place if Theon had remained loyal and the Starks were still holding Winterfell.

I hope Fat Walda has no idea what's going on but I'm unclear about this. Sad that she thinks she won some sort of victory over her cousin Fair Walda by landing Roose freaking Bolton as a husband. Fair Walda easily seems like the luckiest of the Frey girls. She's dodged at least two bullets. I can't help but suspect that Edmure wasn't given Fair Walda because Walder has his fingers crossed that he'll be able to use Fair Walda somewhere down the line, possibly with the Lannisters if he thinks the Lannisters would be willing. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

I don't have time to go back and look right now, but isn't it in one of Arya's chapters where she's serving Roose and overhearing the conversations there that minds were pretty much made up when Robb didn't even have control of his own castle anymore because the Ironborn had taken the North?  IIRC, Robb blundering into a Westerling marriage and breaking with the Freys was just the final icing on the cake that led us to this chapter.  So if Theon had remained loyal, it stands to reason we might not have ever gotten here at all.

The bedding ceremony has always struck me as gross for all the reasons already stated.  It bugged that the show whitewashed St. Ned to refuse any part of it while in the books he may have been a lot more honorable than a lot characters on a number of fronts but he was still just a guy who was a product of this society where such a thing was considered part of the proceedings.  I would say the same about any of those other siblings pairings as well.

Edited December 23, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

It's only just now occurring to me that Renly and Margaery might not have had a bedding ceremony. It's suggested that the marriage was never consummated in both the books and the show, but I vaguely recall some character claiming that it did happen, but maybe this character (I can't remember who it was) was just telling Cersei what she wanted to hear. Maybe it was Taena? 

I was just trying to come up with another example of a bedding ceremony, but it seems like we only get details from three or four. Stannis and Selyse seem to have had one, but I've always been unclear as to whether or not Robert and that Florent girl's activities were discovered immediately or only when she realized she was pregnant. If there's ever a male character who seems like he'd loathe participating in such a thing, it's Stannis Baratheon. I can see him gritting his teeth and baring it because it's the way things are done, but I can't imagine that it was a pleasant experience for him. For the people in this world who enjoy participating in the ceremony and think it's fun and normal--I feel like even a person like that would struggle at a bedding ceremony for a couple like Stannis and Selyse. Imagine a bunch of ladies sexually joking around with him and tearing off his clothes as he gnashes his teeth in irritation? Then you have Selyse who's the punchline of numerous jokes regarding how unattractive she is and you can only imagine the cruel sort of jokes that might spring to mind when people are being drunk and behaving stupidly. 

How this ceremony ever caught on to become a tradition that people in this world seem to enjoy makes little sense to me. There doesn't seem to be one example of the ceremony being sweet or charming or harmless.  

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't have time to go back and look right now, but isn't it in one of Arya's chapters where she's serving Roose and overhearing the conversations there that minds were pretty much made up when Robb didn't even have control of his own castle anymore because the Ironborn had taken the North?  IIRC, Robb blundering into a Westerling marriage and breaking with the Freys was just the final icing on the cake that led us to this chapter.  So if Theon had remained loyal, it stands to reason we might not have ever gotten here at all.

The bedding ceremony has always struck me as gross for all the reasons already stated.  I hated that the show whitewashed St. Ned to refuse any part of it while in the books he may have been a lot more honorable than a lot characters on a number of fronts but he was still just a guy who was a product of this society where such a thing was considered part of the proceedings.  I would say the same about any of those other siblings pairings as well.

By no stretch of the imagination can I imagine the killjoy Jojen participating in Meera's bedding ceremony. It's not about him having any qualms or moral objections, he's just not that guy who joins in with the 'fun' with everyone else. 

When I consider how excited Joffrey was at the prospect of participating in Sansa and Tyrions bedding, I can't help but think he'd have been squirming his ass off if he'd lived long enough to make it to that part of the ceremony. Show Joffrey especially, likely would have refused to participate if his scene with Roz is anything to go by.

[nodorothyparker]

I would imagine Renly and Margaery at least went through the motions of a bedding ceremony even if nothing came after that since they needed that alliance to show that he had the numbers and support to take the throne despite his rather shaky claim to it.  I honestly try not to think too much about the sex lives of a lot of these other characters if I can help it or the books don't specifically mention it.  The series is already weird enough on that front as it is.

I can't get past the fact that Joffers is only 13 when he's married to an older girl and then buried in the books.  I know he makes the gross comments about having Sansa brought to his room after she's married and her V card is no longer a factor, but it still would have been a 13-year-old boy having his clothes ripped off and being ogled by older women.

[benteen]

Great job with the recap as always, Avaleigh!

I remember my reaction reading this chapter being "huh?"  I expected a betrayal but for some reasons I thought Robb would be betrayed on the battlefield.  It makes much more sense to do it here of course.  I like Catelyn smacking Roose in the face during the TV version (Roose being so pleased with himself is kind of funny too).  I do like that Robb's forces attempted to fight back but were overwhelmed, unlike on the show where they were completely butchered.  Catelyn killing Walder's wife was a great change too.  Still, both versions are great.

The bedding ceremony always seemed weird and creepy and it's hard to imagine someone like Ned, Catelyn...even Tywin going through with it.  I've seen one poster note that the bedding ceremony is something that the kings, lords and smallfolk share together.  That may be true but it's still creepy as all hell.

Edited December 27, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It's only just now occurring to me that Renly and Margaery might not have had a bedding ceremony. It's suggested that the marriage was never consummated in both the books and the show, but I vaguely recall some character claiming that it did happen, but maybe this character (I can't remember who it was) was just telling Cersei what she wanted to hear. Maybe it was Taena? 

Yeah, I remember Taena claimed Loras carried Marg naked to the bed. I wouldn't consider her a reliable source, but I can believe that of Loras and Marg. That could be just the shpw's portrayal of them but marrying her off to his lover is kinda weird enough.

St. Ned forbidding his own bedding really annoyed me at the time because it felt like they were trying to make it look like Ned disapproved of it the way we would, as it comes right after Talisa finding the practice odd and cooing about naming her doomed baby Ned. For all his good qualities, Ned was very much a product of his society and Catelyn's bedding memories exemplify that with beloved dead Jory ripping her gown, her father's master-at-arms, who presumably knew her most, if not all, of her life making lewd jokes, and Catelyn mourning Lord Dustin when she remembers him grossly loving her boobs, as if it were all perfectly normal. (Sidenote, I wonder what Lady Dustin would have thought if she'd witnessed this ogling with her Stark bitterness. And now I'm also wondering if l'il boy Edmure helped strip his sister. I really need to stop thinking about this.) However, OTOH, Robb is still shown laughing and thinking nothing of the bedding when he explains it to Talisa, so Ned couldn't have disapproved of the practice too much if his son who idolized him didn't. Not wanting his own wife stripped by his friends while he's being stripped but thinking it's just fine for every other couple isn't really too modern. It's hard to tell how unusual Tyrion refusing the bedding ceremony but I guess it can't be that weird if Cersei needed to be told whether Renly had a bedding and the Tyrells' account of Margaery's virginity is taken seriously. Tyrion doing it was a big deal because he was overruling a king by threatening to geld him. 

15 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I have to say that I definitely, definitely prefer the show change where Catelyn gets a weird vibe from Roose only to look and see that he's wearing his armor. That was probably my favorite face slap in the history of television. It's good here too but we don't know Edwyn as well as we know Roose, so the show moment worked better for me.

I wonder what was going through Dacey's head at that moment? She doesn't say anything but she clearly knows what's up after she touches Edwyn, so I wonder what she did in the few moments leading up to full chaos breaking out. Her death really gave me a pang and I'm curious to know if we'll hear Maege's reaction first hand when she finds out. I can't recall if we catch up with the female Mormonts in ADWD apart from knowing that Jon gets little Lyanna's letter. 

I hope Fat Walda has no idea what's going on but I'm unclear about this. Sad that she thinks she won some sort of victory over her cousin Fair Walda by landing Roose freaking Bolton as a husband. Fair Walda easily seems like the luckiest of the Frey girls. She's dodged at least two bullets. I can't help but suspect that Edmure wasn't given Fair Walda because Walder has his fingers crossed that he'll be able to use Fair Walda somewhere down the line, possibly with the Lannisters if he thinks the Lannisters would be willing. 

I loved the show change with Catelyn/Roose too. Not just who she was slapping but that he was deliberately drawing her attention to his arm, so she could know the trap was set when it was already too late to escape.

Did you forget Aly the She-Bear escorting Asha when Stannis and the northmen capture her? She's the heiress to Bear Island with Dacey dead. I expect if Howland Reed ever makes his appearance that Maege and her other daughters will be with him. 

Well, the Freys did get two Lannister marriages out of this, Lancel's unconsummated marriage to Ami, and Daven's upcoming wedding, which fandom thinks will be the RW 2.0. I'd never put any thought into who Daven's bride would be, but Fair Walda seems likely enough. I didn't get the feeling she had to be any prettier than Roslin though, just that she was one of the pretty Freys and that distinguished her from all the other Waldas. If Walda Bolton knew what her husband was up to, I guess they were a good match. It's so amusing that she's just thrilled about marrying one of the creepiest men in Westeros. Even before going north and meeting Ramsay, Roose himself should be plenty unsettling from the start. I assume she's just that happy to escape the Twins. 

4 hours ago, benteen said:

I do like that Robb's forces attempted to fight back but were overwhelmed, unlike on the show where they were completed butchered. 

That was the part that I really preferred in the book version. We didn't need to actually know Robb's men but there would have been so much poignancy seeing them fight back and try to defend him. IMO that would have been more effective tearjerking than cheesiness about unborn baby Ned Stark. People who didn't care for Robb/Talisa could still feel bad for good men cut down despite their best efforts rather than just a show of gore.

[nodorothyparker]

I love how this chapter starts out talking and talking and talking about how terrible the music is and how awful and stingy the actual feast part of the feast is and how they're indicators of how cheap old Walder is, but hey the liquor's flowing really freely and there's nothing weird at all about no expense being spared there.

As I've said I was generally spoiled about the red wedding, but I didn't know the specifics beyond Robb and a lot of Northerners being killed.  It took me a bit too to realize that Catelyn was being shot in the back and her throat cut because, well, you don't really expecting the narrator of a POV chapter to be murdered.  All the other violence to POV narrators either happens as the chapter ends (Jaime losing his hand) or off page (Theon losing various parts) or it's told through another character's eyes.  I can't think of another chapter in the series so far to portray the POV's death like that.

I assume the show changing it from Catelyn feeling the mail in Edwyn's sleeve to Roose almost deliberately flashing it at her to be as much about consolidating characters since all the Freys there are mostly interchangeable as are most of the Northerners who don't really get any focus either but I like how it was portrayed there too.   I also like swapping Jinglebell for Mrs. Frey number whatever.  David Bradley's shrug and line read of "I'll find another," is so indifferent and pitch perfect about a mostly innocent bystander having her throat slit.  But they lose me when it becomes all about stabbing Talisa in the babymaker and the anachronistic dying love between her and Robb instead of the Northerners overturning tables and fighting to their last in a doomed effort to protect their king.  Because Roose has been in the privy up to this point and hasn't made his grand entrance, there's also that great moment when other Northern soldiers enter the hall giving Catelyn a moment of false hope that they're saved only to see them start attacking too just to underscore how big the betrayal really is.

I think it every time it comes up but can I just say again how much I freaking love that Tywin Lannister is such a Magnificent Bastard that he has his own theme song that is universally understood by hearers that you're in for a Very Bad Time?  I love the use of the lyrics throughout the carnage just to clue us in who orchestrated it all. 

Edited December 25, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

Jon is also killed in his own PoV. He'll have a Red God resurrection in common with Catelyn if Winds ever comes out. Though we can expect his to be different than Stoneheart's, meaning he'll continue as a PoV. Catelyn's death is unique in that sense as well as being the first and with the unclear language usually found in the death fake-out chapters. 

Man, what really gets me, about as much as "Ned loves my hair", is Cat thinking only Robb's life mattered because she had already lived too long and Ned was waiting for her. She and Ned were only in their mid-thirties when they died, but after surviving Ned and believing she'd outlived her three youngest children too, 34/35 years felt like an unbearably long life that she was ready to end just to find some peace. That just makes it even sadder that she couldn't save Robb as she intended when she had that thought, and that after she spent her last moments in pain and senseless violence her afterlife was coming back as Stoneheart, not seeing Ned again.

I guess there's a what-if here if Catelyn had killed Walder as she originally meant to. That would be a big deal because he hasn't been killed yet in the books but I'm not sure what all effects that change would have at this point, beyond starting the inevitable Twins succession crisis sooner than expected.

[Constantinople]

On 12/25/2016 at 1:02 AM, Lady S. said:

I guess there's a what-if here if Catelyn had killed Walder as she originally meant to. That would be a big deal because he hasn't been killed yet in the books but I'm not sure what all effects that change would have at this point, beyond starting the inevitable Twins succession crisis sooner than expected.

I suspect the succession crisis would have been over pretty quickly and won by whomever the Lannisters supported, likely whoever the traditional heir was.  I can't recall who that would be.  I believe Walder outlives his eldest son and his eldest son's eldest son, but I'm not sure if the latter two were still alive at the time of the Red Wedding.

[WearyTraveler]

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:13 PM, Avaleigh said:

Catelyn wonders if there's every been a less joyful wedding...

I can't help but think that Catelyn was projecting a little here.  While we see that she's miserable, the music is awful and the food is stingy, all the other scenes she describes are not as unhappy as her own and Robb's.  Dacey is dancing, the Greatjon is drinking Freys under the table, people are conversing, Manderly is heartily eating...  Granted, it wasn't as great as it could have been, but I think that people were actually enjoying themselves before all hell broke loose.

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:13 PM, Avaleigh said:

Catelyn hears Grey Wind howling outside.

This when my heart broke and I knew for sure Robb would die.  I really, really, really love the direwolves in this story; perhaps because they are the only true friends anyone in this world could have.  Not even Dany's dragons are as loyal or as connected with her as the Starks are with their direwolves.  Other skinchangers don't share the same bond with their beasts either; when Varamyr's eagle gets roasted by Mel and he's writhing on the floor, his shadow cat takes off running and his two wolves go at each other's throats.  A direwolf, by contrast, will die defending any Stark who is in danger; just look at Summer (who I hope survives in the books): he killed the man attacking Catelyn and defended Jon against the Thenns.

I forgive the show a lot because the medium is so different, and I do think sometimes their changes are for the better (such as having Catelyn slap Roose and not Edwyn, as some of you have pointed out), but I can't forgive the way they treat the wolves in their version. 

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:13 PM, Avaleigh said:

She pleads with Walder to allow Robb to live and swears by the old gods and the new that they won't take any vengeance

She also swears on her honor as a Tully and her honor as a Stark, another moving moment for me because it showed that Cat had truly embraced the North and felt fully like a Stark.  It's one of the few times I can relate to the character; having lived most of my adult life in different countries, I can understand the difficulty in fitting in and embracing another culture and another way of life.  And Catelyn really did do just that; she became a Stark on her own right, not because she had to, but because she wanted to and she embraced the best part of the Starks' culture: their honor.  I absolutely believed her when she said that.  She would have never broken that vow; maybe later generations would have, and I'm sure both families would have hated each other with the force of a thousand suns, but Catelyn (and Robb, had he lived) would have kept her word.

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:13 PM, Avaleigh said:

No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair.

Upon first read, I think I almost cried when I read this line.  It's heartbreaking without using any clichés, it conveys so much with such few words... it's almost literary in its beauty.  This from the same person who will shortly grace us with the lines: "Do me, Jaimie! Do me now!".... Sigh!  It's baffling, really.

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:13 PM, Avaleigh said:

Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold

Given that the next chapter sort of ends with a similar note (Arya being hit by the Hound's axe), I should have known that Arya would survive, but this whole chapter is so shocking and depressing, so unexpected, that I actually thought Arya was dead too.

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:06 PM, Lady S. said:

I doubt I would have been confused about Robb's unnamed murderer if I wasn't already spoiled

Yeah, I wasn't spoiled for this book, and I knew right away it was Roose.  The man had already betrayed Robb by sending people to Duskendale, freeing Jaimie and then keeping all this information to himself.  The fact that Northerners had already killed Smalljon and the pink coat were a dead giveaway.

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:52 PM, Avaleigh said:

I can't help but suspect that Edmure wasn't given Fair Walda because Walder has his fingers crossed that he'll be able to use Fair Walda somewhere down the line, possibly with the Lannisters if he thinks the Lannisters would be willing. 

In the upcoming Tyrion chapter Tywin will explain the marriages that were arranged.  I don't think they would include Fair Walda because she's a widow and her maidenhead is gone.  I don't think the books say anything concrete about this, but it seems that virginity is crucial, and unless a woman brings a lot to the table, widows are not a desirable match, especially when there are other women, just as suitable, who are still virgins in House Frey.  I think offering Fair Walda to Edmure could have been perceived as a slight.  I can certainly see Edmure complaining about being given the one Frey woman who was not a virgin.  Tywin would probably consider that a slight, as well.

The only widows who have a chance of remarrying are those with inheritance, such as Lysa, and those who represent the only marriage alliance with a strong, powerful house, such as Cersei.  The rest are seen as less than, in most cases.

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:49 AM, benteen said:

I expected a betrayal but for some reasons I thought Robb would be betrayed on the battlefield. 

Me too.  Narratively speaking, the moment that Robb made Jon his heir, he signed his book death.  I was a believer of R+L=J from the first book (which had hints that the show's first season completely omitted), so, I should have guessed it sooner.  I think the reason I didn't was because of the battle plan to re-take the North that Robb conceived.  It was really perfect, and I was expecting Howland Reed to show up and help re-take Winterfell for his friend's son.  We were privy to every military strategy Robb had and we saw them executed, so, I guess I was condition to believe this last one would come to fruition as well.  After all, we had references to Howland Reed, and his children helping Bran, both of which are good sedgeways for the Northern forces getting through the bogs and taking Moat Cailin unaware.

I certainly didn't expect to get half a book detailing the events in the Iron Islands and Dorne.  Especially not the Iron Islands, as we were seeing the main events of that story in this book, through the information that our POV characters receive.

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:38 PM, Lady S. said:

I expect if Howland Reed ever makes his appearance that Maege and her other daughters will be with him. 

This would be so great!  I keep thinking this is a loose thread that will be picked up eventually.  I want to know how Greywater Watch moves

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:38 PM, Lady S. said:

It's so amusing that she's just thrilled about marrying one of the creepiest men in Westeros.

I think she's thrilled about marrying, period.  She says her cousin is 19 and still unwed "poor thing".  Fat Walda is Merret's daughter and Merret is the ninth son of Walder Frey.  She's very low in the totem pole as it is, and, being fat, I don't think she was expecting a marriage at all.  Marriages are the pinnacle of a woman's achievement in this society and I think Fat Walda was expecting to be a spinster or married down to some lower knight.  I believe she's happy because she never dreamed she would be the Lady of a major castle.

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I suspect the succession crisis would have been over pretty quickly and won by whomever the Lannisters supported, likely whoever the traditional heir was.  I can't recall who that would be.  I believe Walder outlives his eldest son and his eldest son's eldest son, but I'm not sure if the latter two were still alive at the time of the Red Wedding.

In the epilogue of this book, Merret goes into this subject.  He explains that Stevron Frey was the heir (Walder's first son), but that since he died fighting for Robb and his children died as well, the heir is now Ryman Frey.  No wonder he fully participated in the massacre.  He's the next in line and most of the Freys believe that Walder is not long for this world.  Ryman's sons Edwyn and Black Walder are next, followed by his third son Petyr Pimple, who gets several mentions in the chapters preceding the epilogue (he's the one that falls off his horse, and Catelyn mentions him here), presumably so we can remember who he is when Merret finds him hanging from a tree.

[benteen]

Quote

I can't help but think that Catelyn was projecting a little here.  While we see that she's miserable, the music is awful and the food is stingy, all the other scenes she describes are not as unhappy as her own and Robb's.  Dacey is dancing, the Greatjon is drinking Freys under the table, people are conversing, Manderly is heartily eating...  Granted, it wasn't as great as it could have been, but I think that people were actually enjoying themselves before all hell broke loose.

I remember someone noting on another board that at this point Catelyn is like "the wedding sucks, the music sucks, the food sucks, the weather sucks, everything sucks." 

[Constantinople]

The bedding ceremony sounds like one of those customs that fantasy writers concoct when they want something weird, but don't put too much thought behind it.

I don't see how this custom would even get started unless we're to believe some king lost to the mists of time lived through his own version of The Crying Game.  But even that's hard to believe.  Why would someone do that?  Moreover, given that members of the upper class were watched their entire lives, how could they do that?  Even if that is the origin, given how sexist the society is, you'd think they'd only strip the woman.

Also, given their cultural differences, it also seems odd that both Northerners and Southerners engage in this custom.  I'm not sure how the First Men would have adopted it from the Andals or vice-versa.

[nodorothyparker]

It's like a lot of things in this series that are very loosely based on things that did happen during the medieval period that George puts his own spin on to make so much worse.  Like the Walk of Shame.  Edward IV's mistress Jane Shore is the famous example most point to in that she was paraded through the streets after his death on Richard III's orders as penance for whoring.  In her case though she was stripped only of her finery and outerwear and forced to carry a heavy penance candle.  She wasn't stripped naked or shaved.  George of course ramps that up to 11 to make it as gross and humiliating as possible.  

Sourcing is always a little sketchy about social customs like this, but many seem to agree that there was some less titillating form of bedding for highborns where the bride's women would undress her and the groom's men would do the same and then see them in bed together so if later asked they could say "yep, probably consummated" so the marriage and whatever property arrangements accompanied it couldn't be set aside.  There's also stories of these people waiting outside the door to listen or shout suggestions and of course later parading the bed sheets for proof of virgin blood spilled.   George just doesn't seem to be able to help himself always going for the grossest and most extreme variations of it.

[Avaleigh]

Arya XI

Arya and the Hound are almost at the castle and Arya sees that the castle isn't closed as they were told it would be. The drawbridge has already been lowered and loads of armed riders begin pouring out of the castle gate.  

Somewhere far off she heard a wolf howling. It wasn’t very loud compared to the camp noise and the music and the low ominous growl of the river running wild, but she heard it all the same. Only maybe it wasn’t her ears that heard it. The sound shivered through Arya like a knife, sharp with rage and grief. More and more riders were emerging from the castle, a column four wide with no end to it, knights and squires and freeriders, torches and longaxes. And there was noise coming from behind as well.

When Arya starts looking around, she sees that one of the huge feast tents has collapsed and is becoming engulfed in flames. The other two feast tents collapse shortly after this and quickly catch fire as well. The screams of people begin to grow louder and Arya finally understands that a battle is taking place. She can hear the music coming from both castles and realizes that they're playing the same song. She recognizes the lyrics of "The Rains of Castamere" from hearing Tom perform it for the Brotherhood. 

The Hound ditches the wayn, jumps on his horse, and begins fighting against three men who attack him. Arya has a rock in her hand and is unsure about who she should throw it at. She thinks about how much she's been praying for the Hound to die and thinks about how he's one man against three. She also thinks about the fact that Mycah was her friend.

Arya sees that one of the riders coming towards her and feels totally confused when she sees that he's wearing a Frey badge. She remembers how she heard that her uncle is supposed to be marrying one of Lord Frey's daughters and thinks about how the Freys are supposed to be her brother's friends. She throws the rock at a knight who attempts to attack her and he responds by chasing her around the wayn for awhile. Just as the man is telling her that she won't be able to hide from him forever, the Hound ends up killing the guy by burying an axe in the back of his skull. 

The Hound asks Arya to toss him his helm and when she brings up Robb, the Hound tells her bluntly that her brother is dead. He explains that there's no way these people are going to allow Robb to live after they've killed all of his men. He forces Arya to look around and really take in the scene. Arya sees that the camp has become a battlefield, and the Hound tells her that they'll have to leave immediately. Arya protests and says that her brother and mother are still in the castle. She insists that they have to go and get her mother and thinks that there's a possibility that her mother can still be saved. 

The Hound tells Arya that she's being stupid and warns her that if she goes inside of the castle she won't be allowed to leave. He says that he isn't finished living yet and tells her to choose whether or not she wants to live or die. 

Arya spun away from him and darted for the gate. The portcullis was coming down, but slowly. I have to run faster. The mud slowed her, though, and then the water. Run fast as a wolf. The drawbridge had begun to lift, the water running off it in a sheet, the mud falling in heavy clots. Faster. She heard loud splashing and looked back to see Stranger pounding after her, sending up gouts of water with every stride. She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and her feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.

The Hound's axe hits Arya in the back of the head. 

[Avaleigh]

It's hard to see Arya's hopes completely smashed. She's too anxious to smile but she's starting to feel the urge. The hope is there but she's cautious enough to know that something can still go wrong. Even when the situation is starting to go to shit and Sandor realizes something's wrong, it still takes a moment for it to connect for her that her family has been betrayed again. Then, once she does realize that the Freys aren't her brother's friends, she still has hope that her brother and mother are somehow alive.

I guess it's asking a lot for Arya to think logically here because I don't understand why she thinks she needs to run for her life or that the Hound is going to kill her the way that he killed Mycah. Even though this ransom opportunity is blown, he could conceivably still ransom her to somebody else. Again, I'm not expecting her to think rationally, I'm just musing about what must have been going through her head. 

Plus, she never gets satisfaction over her fears that they somehow won't recognize her or won't be happy to see her because of things she's done. I found that to be very sad. 

Tyrion's up next. It seems like it's been a long time since we've caught up with Tyrion and Sansa. 

[Lady S.]

21 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I guess it's asking a lot for Arya to think logically here because I don't understand why she thinks she needs to run for her life or that the Hound is going to kill her the way that he killed Mycah. Even though this ransom opportunity is blown, he could conceivably still ransom her to somebody else. Again, I'm not expecting her to think rationally, I'm just musing about what must have been going through her head. 

I was going to ask if anyone really believed he'd just kill her for no reason after trying to rescue her from the Freys, but I guess @WearyTraveler just answered that question above. To me, this is pretty much a repeat of her last chapter in the first book, which ends with Yoren holding a knife to her for no given reason right after Ned's death. Again, disclaimer that I went into this spoiled about most of the important parts so it's sometimes hard to imagine a sweet summer child's reading experience.

[nodorothyparker]

I don't think Arya is thinking about much, logically or otherwise, except that maybe her mother's not dead in that castle and the portcullis is starting to come down and then the instinct to run takes over.  She's just watched a whole field of men be slaughtered and now the Hound is chasing after her with an ax with someone else's brains still on it.  It's not like she's stopping to think it all through.  I never assumed the Hound would be trying to kill her but I could see where her mind could make that leap while he was trying to stop her.

More effective use of Tywin Lannister's fight song throughout.  I like how this chapter is written to really showcase her confusion at the horror happening around her.  The Freys are attacking but that doesn't make sense when they're marrying into her family and they're her brother's allies.  Oh, they're catapulting oil and fire into the feasting tents.  Huh.  She's been wanting the Hound to die forever but now she has this rock in her hand and she has no idea if she still wants to throw it at him or whether she thinks he's on her side or who she should even aim at.

Edited December 31, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

On 12/27/2016 at 2:53 PM, WearyTraveler said:

In the upcoming Tyrion chapter Tywin will explain the marriages that were arranged.  I don't think they would include Fair Walda because she's a widow and her maidenhead is gone.  I don't think the books say anything concrete about this, but it seems that virginity is crucial, and unless a woman brings a lot to the table, widows are not a desirable match, especially when there are other women, just as suitable, who are still virgins in House Frey.  I think offering Fair Walda to Edmure could have been perceived as a slight.  I can certainly see Edmure complaining about being given the one Frey woman who was not a virgin.  Tywin would probably consider that a slight, as well.

The only widows who have a chance of remarrying are those with inheritance, such as Lysa, and those who represent the only marriage alliance with a strong, powerful house, such as Cersei.  The rest are seen as less than, in most cases.

Fair Walda is still a maid, even though "she'll be 19 soon, poor thing", according to Walda Bolton (who I think was only 15/16, in no danger of being an old maid herself). I think you're thinking of Ami, widowed in the war, who was in fact included in the new marriage deals and married to Lancel Lannister, though he was born again at that point and never consummated the marriage. A woman losing her virginity outside of marriage/betrothal could be a big deal, but there would no such shame in widowhood and no obstacle to a widow remarrying even without a position like Cersei's or Lysa's. Walder tells one of his bastards' daughters that she wouldn't be good enough for the KitN but introduces Ami with all the other would-be Frey Queens, noting that "there's some who like a woman broken in". I assume the Tyrells' insistence on Margaery's virginity had to with Renly being an attainted rebel and not wanting any delay in her next betrothal by worry over whether she could be carrying Renly's child. Her virginity becomes important later because if Renly never consummated the marriage then she could only have lost her maidenhead outside of marriage. There's also the case of Sansa's future friend Myranda Royce, a widow in her 20s, who was one of the prospective matches for Harry the Heir.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion VII

Tyrion and Sansa are having dinner and Tyrion starts complaining about Joffrey and Cersei. He's also concerned about the growing tension between the Tyrells and Martells and thinks about a recent confrontation that took place between Olenna Tyrell and Ellaria Sand where Olenna addressed Ellaria as "the serpent's whore". Every time Tyrion sees Oberyn, the prince pressures him by asking when justice will be served.

Sansa asks for permission to go to the godswood to pray and Tyrion attempts to make polite conversation with her. He suggests accompanying her on one of her nightly visits, but she tells him that he'd only be bored if he went. Tyrion admits that she's probably right and has to stop himself from asking what she prays for while she's there. He decides that he'd rather not know.

Tyrion is going through Littlefinger's accounts and finds a lot of the activity to be confusing and suspicious. He also regrets allowing Joffrey to kill the Antler Men because it seems that several of these men were able to secure loans from the crown prior to their deaths.

Tyrion is summoned to see Tywin and is surprised to see Cersei, Joffrey, Kevan, and Pycelle already with his father. Joffrey seems excited and Cersei has a smug looking smile on her face. Tywin looks grim the way he usually does and Tyrion finds himself wondering if Tywin would be physically capable of smiling if he wanted to. Tyrion asks what's happened and reads a short message that's been sent from House Frey. Joffrey excitedly explains to Tyrion that Robb Stark is dead.

Tyrion comments that their war seems to be winning itself, but Cersei gives credit to Tywin and says it's because of him that they've won. Tywin responds cautiously and says he doesn't think they've won anything as long as they still have enemies in the field. Cersei doubts that the river lords will try to stand against the alliance of Casterly Rock, Highgarden, and Sunspear, and believes they'll have no choice other than submission. 

Quote

“Most,” agreed Lord Tywin. “Riverrun remains, but so long as Walder Frey holds Edmure Tully hostage, the Blackfish dare not mount a threat. Jason Mallister and Tytos Blackwood will fight on for honor’s sake, but the Freys can keep the Mallisters penned up at Seagard, and with the right inducement Jonos Bracken can be persuaded to change his allegiance and attack the Blackwoods. In the end they will bend the knee, yes. I mean to offer generous terms. Any castle that yields to us will be spared, save one.”

Tyrion accurately guesses that Harrenhal is the castle that won't be spared and Tywin says that he feels the realm should be rid of the Brave Companions once and for all. He's commanded that Gregor Clegane put the castle to the sword. Tyrion thinks resentfully about how Littlefinger is going to be able to stroll into Harrenhal without having to lift a finger to fight for it and finds himself hoping that Littlefinger's ship will run into a storm and sink. 

Joffrey doesn't like the idea of offering generous terms and tells his grandfather that he wants the Mallisters, Blackwoods, and Brackens all put to the sword. He also wants Robb's head sent to him in time for the wedding so that he can have it served to Sansa during the feast. Kevan is shocked when he hears this and reminds Joffrey that Sansa is his aunt through marriage. Cersei tries to claim that Joffrey was only joking, but Joffrey clarifies that he's being completely serious and specifies that he wants to see Sansa kiss her dead brother's head at the feast. Tyrion calls Joffrey a monster and tells him that Sansa is no longer his to torment. Joffrey tells Tyrion that he's the real monster between the two of them, and Tyrion responds by advising Joffrey to speak more respectfully to him if he's such a monster and points out that kings have been "dying like flies" lately. Joffrey tells Tyrion that he could have his tongue cut out for that comment and reminds him that he's the king. Cersei advises Joffrey to allow Tyrion to speak freely so that Tywin and Kevan can see the kind of man Tyrion is. 

Tywin tells Joffrey that Aerys was the sort of man who felt the need to remind men that he was king. He says that Aerys was into ripping people's tongues out as well and cites Ser Ilyn Payne as an example. Cersei claims that Ilyn Payne never provoked Aerys the way Tyrion provokes Joffrey and reminds her father that Tyrion just called the king a monster.

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“Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. When I’ve won your war for you, we will restore the king’s peace and the king’s justice. The only head that need concern you is Margaery Tyrell’s maidenhead.”

Joffrey starts pouting and surprises everyone in the room by accusing Tywin of being scared of Aerys. Cersei tells Joffrey to apologize but Joffrey refuses saying that everyone knows it's true that Tywin was scared of Aerys. Joffrey goes on to say that his father was responsible for winning all of the battles while Tywin was hiding away at Casterly Rock. Joffrey looks at Tywin and says that a strong king should act boldly. Tywin thanks Joffrey for his words of wisdom and suggests that his grandson is tired. He tells Kevan to escort Joffrey back to his bedchamber and asks Pycelle to get some dreamwine for the king. Joffrey insists that he doesn't want any dreamwine, but everyone ignores him and Kevan quickly guides him out of the room. 

Tywin asks for Tyrion and Cersei to remain and once they're alone, Cersei begins apologizing for Joffrey's behavior. Cersei is forced to admit that Robert is the one who told Joffrey that kings should be bold, and Tywin says that he didn't fight a war just so that he could put Robert the Second on the throne. Tywin says that Cersei made it seem like Joffrey didn't care for his father, and Cersei maintains this is because Robert ignored Joffrey.

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“Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I’d allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I’d kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things...”

“It appears things needed to be said.” Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. “Go.”

Cersei leaves in a huff and Tyrion comments that Joffrey is closer to being an Aerys the Third than a Robert the Second. Tywin says Joffrey is only thirteen and that there's still time. He gets up and starts pacing, and Tyrion realizes that his father is more upset than he wishes to show. When Tywin says that his grandson "requires a sharp lesson", Tyrion almost feels sorry for Joffrey but decides that if anybody needs a sharp lesson in life it's his nephew.

Tyrion congratulates Tywin on his plot with Walder Frey and asks for further details. He's curious to know if Cersei was told and tells Tywin that he doesn't like the fact that he was left in the dark. Tywin explains that only the people who had a role to play in what happened were told and even then, they were only told what they needed to know. Tywin says that secrecy was more important than indulging Cersei or Tyrion with information and tells Tyrion that he talks too much anyway. He tells Tyrion that his tongue will likely be his undoing one day. 

The conversation turns to the Martells and Tywin acknowledges that Oberyn's presence in the capital is unfortunate. Tyrion learns that it's true that Oberyn once tried to raise Dorne for Viserys, and Tywin confirms that Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear so that he could sit down with Doran and end all talk of war. The meeting was successful, but Robert never went to Dorne afterwards and Oberyn rarely left it. 

Tywin reveals that his plan is to pin the murders of Elia and her children on Ser Amory Lorch. Tyrion knows that Oberyn isn't going to be happy but thinks that the lie might serve. Tyrion tells Tywin that it probably would have been better to let Robert bloody his own hands with the murders of Elia and her children, and Tywin explains that House Lannister was too late in supporting Robert's cause and needed to do something extreme in order to demonstrate their loyalty. Robert was relieved to not have to be the one to kill Rhaegar's children because it didn't go with his idea of what it means to be a hero. 

Tywin admits that the murders of Elia and her children were done too brutally and acknowledges that Elia needn't have died at all. She probably only died because he didn't explicitly tell Clegane not to harm her. Tywin also claims that he didn't order Gregor to rape Elia and says that he didn't initially realize what sort of man Clegane was. 

Tyrion learns of the manner of Robb's death and is told that Catelyn was killed too. Tywin says that the original plan was for Catelyn to be kept hostage and says that the blood is all on Walder Frey's hands. Tyrion says that there's no way Walder would have done something like this without the promise of protection, and Tywin asks Tyrion if he really would have spared Robb.

“I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war. Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.” When Tyrion had no reply to that, his father continued. “The price was cheap by any measure. The crown shall grant Riverrun to Ser Emmon Frey once the Blackfish yields. Lancel and Daven must marry Frey girls, Joy is to wed one of Lord Walder’s natural sons when she’s old enough, and Roose Bolton becomes Warden of the North and takes home Arya Stark.”

Tyrion is surprised to learn that Arya is alive and says that Varys and Ser Jacelyn searched for her for half a year. Tywin says that Littlefinger seems to have succeeded where Tyrion and Varys failed, and says that "Arya" will now be wed to Roose Bolton's bastard. Tywin says the plan is for the Dreadfort to fight against the ironborn for a few years until both sides are exhausted and willing to bend the knee to the Iron Throne. Tywin says that the north can then go to Tyrion's son through Sansa, and again encourages Tyrion to consummate the marriage. Tyrion asks his father how willing he thinks Sansa is going to be when he tells her that his family just murdered her mother and brother. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Avaleigh