Burns & Novick: The Vietnam War - General Discussion

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Ken Burns and Lynn Novick’s ten-part, 18-hour documentary series, THE VIETNAM WAR, tells the epic story of one of the most consequential, divisive, and controversial events in American history as it has never before been told on film. Visceral and immersive, the series explores the human dimensions of the war through revelatory testimony of nearly 80 witnesses from all sides—Americans who fought in the war and others who opposed it, as well as combatants and civilians from North and South Vietnam. Ten years in the making, the series includes rarely seen and digitally re-mastered archival footage from sources around the globe, photographs taken by some of the most celebrated photojournalists of the 20th Century, historic television broadcasts, evocative home movies, and secret audio recordings from inside the Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations. THE VIETNAM WAR features more than 100 iconic musical recordings from greatest artists of the era and haunting original music from Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross as well as the Silk Road Ensemble featuring Yo-Yo Ma.

 

[Brattinella]

Remarkable content so far in Part One.  I lived through that era and had never seen much of this footage before. 

[JudyObscure]

My Air Force husband was stationed in Thailand, loading bombs on planes, in 1972.  He knows a lot about the history of the whole thing but he was still mesmerized, as was I who knew very little about the 1950's build up. I was married to another, very anti-war man at the time, I'm anxious to hear from that side, too. 

The thing that stood out to me last night was that our government seemed to be more interested in doing what was best for all America than in fighting party politics. 

The music takes me right back to the period.

I'll watch any Ken Burn's documentary and I'd listen to Peter Coyote read the phone book.

We're in it for the whole 18 hours I think.

[officetemp]

So glad that this thread was started.  Ken Burns is an extraordinary documentary film maker.

The historical background of the conflict is fascinating and disheartening at the same time.  So many crucial moments where, if decisions had been made differently, the orientation/political makeup of the whole Southeast Asian region would have been radically different today.

I found the behavior of the French at times so inexplicable.  Also, I never knew before watching this film that the French government in Vietnam had collaborated with the Japanese invaders during WWII.

So much brutality on all sides; frightening and discouraging how much the American experiences in the 1960s and 1970s paralleled the French experiences in the 1940s and 1950s.  "Deja vu" is such an appropriate title for this episode!

I think it would be interesting if PBS could rebroadcast the complete earlier series--Vietnam:  A Television History--in order for viewers to compare how the thinking regarding the whole conflict has changed and/or remained the same.

I joined the Army right out of high school in 1974, so the war was winding down just as I entered the service and not many people were being posted to Vietnam by then.  Saigon fell the next spring while I was still in my specialty school.  The veterans whom I met that were still in the service while I was in the Army were totally demoralized by the whole experience in Vietnam.  They referred to the North Vietnamese forces against whom they had fought as "Sir Charles."

Edited September 18, 2017 by officetemp
Clarity; correcting errors

[magdalene]

It mystifies me why the Americans thought they were going to fare better than the French who came before them.  Same location.  Similar circumstances.  Same opponent using same tactics.  To expect a different outcome is what - arrogance? stupidity? Combination of both?

I feel bad for the generation of young men sacrificed to this debacle.

[mightysparrow]

The pictures of the monks burning themselves alive are beyond belief.  How could the US ever think they could beat THAT?

I'm glad this show is showing how much Vietnam was Kennedy's war.  LBJ took the blame while JFK rested peacefully in Camelot.

[JudyObscure]

20 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I'm glad this show is showing how much Vietnam was Kennedy's war.  LBJ took the blame while JFK rested peacefully in Camelot.

 

Yes, it was  chilling to hear JFK say that he knew we had no chance of winning in Vietnam, but that if he pulled out the troops he wouldn't win re-election.

How lucky for Madam Nhu that she was visiting America when the coup went down.  Horrible woman.

[Brattinella]

I was shocked by JFK saying that he wouldn't get re-elected.  I had such a fantasy person built in my mind.

And yes, Madame Nhu should have gotten worse than her family. 

[wonderwoman]

As with many of Ken Burns's projects, the sheer magnitude can overwhelm -- sometimes it feels like homework:) I was in high school and college during the war, and thought I knew a lot. But, while I knew the French had occupied Vietnam, I was amazed, and fascinated,  at the detail Burns and Novick were able to reveal, in particular, what happened during WWII.

Edited September 19, 2017 by wonderwoman

[kassygreene]

If you have a PBS account (i.e., a contributor at or above a certain level), the entire series is available at pbs.org now.  If you aren't a pbs contributor you can log in with facebook or google+ and get access to parts 1-5 now.  And I've just discovered this morning that there are four versions available at pbs: broadcast (which I spent all of yesterday watching), explicit language (no blooped words), en español, and vietnamese.  I spent yesterday watching the first five parts... oh, the interviews/talking heads of people who were there were just so good.  I can see why it took ten years to put together.

I was born in '56, and I remember that I started reading newspapers in the fall of 1963 to find information about this place called Vietnam.  I'd spread the paper out on the floor, elbows slowly blackened by newsprint, and find the very few articles about this place.  My father had done a tour in the Air Force, and had been invited back for helicopter school and one brief 11-month assignment overseas and then he would get to disappear back into the Reserves.  It was entirely optional and very enticing (lots of hazard or combat pay, apparently), especially since helicopter training would have opened up lots of employment IF he had survived.  The overseas assignment would  have been Vietnam, and with four kids under the age of seven, this was an invitation he had no problem turning down.  An unmarried buddy of his did do it, and while he survived he had two co-pilots KIA next to him over those 11 months.  And those 11 months were very early, before the intensive build-up began.

Vietnam was the backdrop to my life (I graduated high school in 1974 - after U.S. combat "ended", after the POWs came home, a year before the fall of Saigon), and while my family was not directly impacted, one of my uncles did a year there (as a REMF, in as much as any part of RE Vietnam was truly RE), and my grandfather spent the entire year listening to the radio and watching what little television news there was, scared spitless for him.

I remember figuring out in 68 or 69 that we were the Redcoats over there, and that didn't fit at all with the American self-image.  For the first time in the fifty-odd years since I had that epiphany I have finally heard someone else say it (part 4 or 5 I think).  

I have asked Army friends what they think of Westmoreland.  I've heard he was unfairly shafted with an impossible assignment; I've heard that he was a guy who had no problem with adapting to a system that valued pretty numbers more than the boots in the mud.  Watching this series, I'm thinking he (and many others) were reincarnations of George McClellan, who if only he had had enough troops and supplies he would of course have been able to take on Robert E. Lee.  Trouble is, the entire government thought throwing more and more was all that was needed.  Damn Bobby McNamara and his systems analysis idolatry.  He wasn't really good at systems analysis, because he could not be flexible enough to adapt to reality; he preferred to force reality to adapt to his systems.  And then when he could no longer deny reality he ran away to a very cushy post as President of the World Bank.

Sorry for the ramble, but this war was the backdrop of my youth.

[officetemp]

1 hour ago, kassygreene said:

 

. . . Damn Bobby McNamara and his systems analysis idolatry.  He wasn't really good at systems analysis, because he could not be flexible enough to adapt to reality; he preferred to force reality to adapt to his systems.  And then when he could no longer deny reality he ran away to a very cushy post as President of the World Bank.

Sorry for the ramble, but this war was the backdrop of my youth.

That's one of things that struck me in last night's episode:  McNamara seemed to treat the whole conflict as some type of hypothetical intellectual exercise; "if we just get all the numbers right, then victory is ours."  No thought for any of the people, whatever side those people were on, who were actually, physically invested in the conflict.

I think one of the best aspects of this series is that it clarifies and emphasizes how complex the whole Vietnam war actually was.  So many different factions, so many different ideals, so many different motives.  And, no matter how noble a motive may be to start with, reality sets in so quickly and people just end up doing what they think it's going to take to make things turn out the way they want it to turn out, nobility of spirit be damned.  And if there was no nobility of spirit to start with, then the result is the South Vietnamese president, his brother and sister-in-law (horrible woman!).  The ordinary citizens of Vietnam went through so much suffering and all in the name of "saving the country!"

I'm wondering how much the failure of the Bay of Pigs Invasion influenced JFK's decision to continue with the Vietnam operation.  If Bay of Pigs had been a success, would it have motivated him to just withdraw from Vietnam, or would such a success have been even more reason for him to rationalize that the US needed to stay in Vietnam?  Was shocked how the number of military advisers during the first year of his administration ballooned from around 600 to over 11,000.

I was born in 1956, same as kassygreene.  I can't remember any time during my growing up years when Vietnam was not lurking in the background of everything else that was going on during the 1960s.

 

Ken Burns and his production staff are so skilled at picking out music for all of their series.  Sam Cooke's song, "Mean Old World," which was played during the closing credits of last night's episode, was so plaintive, especially in the context of the events we viewers know will follow in the next episodes and what the participants, at that point in time in history, had no idea were approaching.  Enough to make you weep.

[kassygreene]

6 hours ago, officetemp said:

...

I'm wondering how much the failure of the Bay of Pigs Invasion influenced JFK's decision to continue with the Vietnam operation.  If Bay of Pigs had been a success, would it have motivated him to just withdraw from Vietnam, or would such a success have been even more reason for him to rationalize that the US needed to stay in Vietnam?  Was shocked how the number of military advisers during the first year of his administration ballooned from around 600 to over 11,000.

...

JFK could not be seen as soft on communism.  The McCarthy hearings had ended much less than a decade earlier.  And he did get rolled on the Bay of Pigs by his own generals and CIA, just as he later got played in Austria by Krushev.  Getting chased out of Vietnam would have severely damaged his ability to be any kind of effective president.

Johnson couldn't be seen as soft on communism, foreign affairs, and war in general.  His own sense of machismo required he go to war and win it.  I've always thought the tragedy of LBJ, whose Great Society truly was an incredible achievement, was that he lost his legacy to the Vietnam quagmire.

Bravest thing in the world to do is declare victory and get out, and even braver to declare a loss and get out.  I don't think any man in any political system would ever be able to do it.

Edited September 19, 2017 by kassygreene
needed to complete my thoughts

[mightysparrow]

I was born in 1960 but watching the 6:00pm news was a family ritual.  I was born in England but we moved to Canada in 1966.  When it came to American news, we were a CBS family.  The Vietnam War was a part of my childhood too.  It didn't seem like it would ever end.  I remember when I was little, wondering if the Vietnamese ever smiled or laughed because they always seemed to be crying.  And crouching down while American soldiers stood over them.  In our house, Johnson was a good guy because he was behind so much progressive legislation.  I felt sorry for him because everyone seemed to be so mad at him.

[officetemp]

Absolutely flabbergasted by how pretty much all of the members of the Johnson administration knew and/or believed that no good outcome for the Vietnam War was ever going to be possible and they went ahead and did what they did anyway!  In secret!  Then LIED over and over again about it.  Bunch of chickens with their heads cut off just running around in circles caroming off the sides of the chicken coop.  They couldn't even define what the objective of the operation was beyond the vague statement, "stopping the spread of communism."

Didn't realize that Ho Chi Minh had all but been pushed aside by the time the US had gotten involved in the conflict.  He really was marginalized by the more aggressive members of the North Vietnamese leadership.

 

3 hours ago, kassygreene said:

. . .

Johnson couldn't be seen as soft on communism, foreign affairs, and war in general.  His own sense of machismo required he go to war and win it.  I've always thought the tragedy of LBJ, whose Great Society truly was an incredible achievement, was that he lost his legacy to the Vietnam quagmire.

. . .

I think he also felt compelled to carry out the Kennedy legacy, part of which was Vietnam, because of the way JFK's life was cut short so suddenly. 

[JudyObscure]

Johnson calling CBS and demanding that Morley Safer be fired. Wow. 

The talk, last night, about how outstanding the soldiers were, on both sides, really makes you weep for the incredible waste of life it all was.

[shapeshifter]

I had decided not to watch (the Vietnam War was the backdrop that ultimately determined the fate of my high school Romeo-and-Juliet romance) but mentions here of the music caused me to at least watch the first episode, which is available free online: http://www.pbs.org/video/deja-vu-1858-1961-7tmfea/

 

ON SEPTEMBER 19, 2017 AT 11:46 AM, OFFICETEMP SAID:

I think one of the best aspects of this series is that it clarifies and emphasizes how complex the whole Vietnam war actually was. 

I just watched part 2. I  was wishing they'd given at least a brief account of Vietnam's centuries-long history of conflict between the north and south, and also the earliest colonialism by China and other countries. When I learned of that history in the 90s, I was amazed that McNamara's "meat grinder" ever got going. But then both educated and uneducated presidents alike seem doomed to preside over similar foolishness.

Edited September 20, 2017 by shapeshifter

[Brattinella]

Our family watched CBS back then, and I saw the Morley Safer broadcast.  That was my first inkling that this wasn't a noble war.  Then, of course, the hundreds of flag-draped coffins started to come back, all shown on national TV.  I really want them (the news people) to show the coffins coming back NOW.

[mightysparrow]

I had been dreading Mogy's death.  His family was so nice.  I'd hoped that at the end, we'd see him and he'd say 'then I came back from Vietnam' but I knew in my heart that wasn't going to happen.  What a dreadful time that was.

[magdalene]

Another riveting episode - I am glued to the screen, this is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. And Burns of course excels in making you invest emotionally in addition to the brutal history lessons.  I started to cry when they showed Mogy's elderly mother tearing up remembering getting the terrible news.

I started talking to the TV tonight - when they showed those volunteer teenage girls immediately at repairing Ho's trail after the Americans bombed it - I said, this is why the Americans are never going win here.

And they are only at 1967, this cursed war went on til 1975.

[kassygreene]

Well, just visited pbs.org, and now if you log in with Google+ or Facebook parts 6-10 are available.  Diving in.....

 

ETA Never mind, apparently that was a bobble that PBS has corrected.  Probably will happen on Sunday....

Edited September 22, 2017 by kassygreene

[PodcastTown]

Another Ken Burns masterpiece. This is probably my favorite film of 2017. Yes, it's a film/movie and it's 18hr's long! That's all I've been watching since last Sunday. I could watch a whole month of this easily. 

Each episode feels like a cinematic experience. Hell, I think episode 5 alone is better than most films this year, LMAO. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by PodcastTown

[JudyObscure]

I was part of that anti-war march on Central Park in April of 1967.  A bus load of us went from the Ohio State campus.  All I remember well is listening to MLK speak and chanting, "Hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"  I had been feeling guilty about that ever since a film about LBJ said that the chant really made him feel bad.  Well that's one regret I can mark off my list. Why oh why did Johnson think he couldn't tell the American public the whole truth about what was going on and start pulling troops out? Mogy's mother and thousands of other parents would have thanked him for it.

[PodcastTown]

#1 bestseller in documentaries on Amazon right now. 

[SusanSunflower]

for some reasons, I can't get Previously TV add this thread to my "followed content" queue. 

There is such a blizzard of information, I'm not sure how much "confirmation bias" is controlling opinions ... There's a lot that really happened -- our support of the Diem -- that's so hard to fathom, so in contradiction to all we believe about ourselves (almost no matter how cynical or jaded the last decade may have made us) -- like the up close and personal massacres as well as "raining fire from the sky" relentless bombing of civilians -- it may well take repeated viewings (if one can bear it) to "decide" what Burns & Company are trying to say as they juggle and juggle to present all (or at least divergent) viewpoints.  Facts/documentary evidence that does not have preexisting context often fails to take hold and be remembered.   

It's actually better than I expected.  I've realized reading comments how old I am -- that my memories are first hand (born 1952) and begin with the relative maturity of middle school, versus those whose knowledge base was primarily built by the stories of others or what one was taught in school, a narrative that has changed and been reconfigured several times -- who can forget the sudden appearance of "they wouldn't let us win" that arose in the late 1980's or the missing/forgotten POW fervor of Rambo and Chuck Norris films. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh CRAP! I wish I had known this was going to air. And now, I've got to become a contributing member of PBS just so I can watch the unedited versions! Or are those only available on their site?

I find the coverage of this particular war to be so compelling. I wasn't born when it started and was just a wee when it finally ended. So all I know of it is what was covered on various documentaries and shows, like CNN's The Sixties, The Seventies, and programs about Kennedy's presidency. And of course, using this event in some of my favorite shows as affecting the major characters. Like JAG, for instance.

[SusanSunflower]

no, you don't have to join PBS to watch the videos on their website (and apparently all 10 episodes are now available) ...  google "watch PBS on line"  ... 

They don't stream well on my terrible slow internet (they are apparently high-def and require a good connection) ... Also, I'd check your TV listings because I'd bet PBS will do some weekend marathon for those wishing to watch what they missed and/or record at home. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Thanks @SusanSunflower!

[SusanSunflower]

Their player is just awful (at least for me) ... there's no way to fast-forward and if you exit, you start at the beginning when you try to resume ... I loathe / despise it ...  (I did notice that that the interminable cruise-ship ads at the start of the last thing I tried to re-watched appeared gone ... having to watch and rewatch the ads part of the burden of watching on line). 

I'd check youtube as well ... PBS seems to make a lot of money selling DVDS and their shows usually impossible to download, but this -- as a prestige public-service type offering -- may have been made more accessible. 

[AuntiePam]

On 9/19/2017 at 8:17 AM, wonderwoman said:

As with many of Ken Burns's projects, the sheer magnitude can overwhelm -- sometimes it feels like homework:) I was in high school and college during the war, and thought I knew a lot. But, while I knew the French had occupied Vietnam, I was amazed, and fascinated,  at the detail Burns and Novick were able to reveal, in particular, what happened during WWII.

That's about all I knew too -- that the French were there first.  I sorta wish that this was more chronological, instead of jumping back and forth from the 40's to the 60's, and like another viewer said, some really early history would be nice.  But my gosh, Burns and crew have made another outstanding film.  They're a national treasure.

I was reluctant to watch while my husband was in the room.  He was there and has a shrapnel scar (on his butt) from when his plane was shot down.  That's the only part of his service he's ever talked about, maybe because a scar on the butt has some potential for humor (?). 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

for some reasons, I can't get Previously TV add this thread to my "followed content" queue. 

Yeah, you can only add the parent thread of SPECIALS, TV MOVIES & OTHER ONE-OFFS to your PTV customized home page. That's what I did, but then I do regularly check that page.

[kassygreene]

Regarding Diem, we supported all kinds of SOBs for no other reason than the fact that they weren't communists.

The broadcast version on the site is the one with cusswords bleeped out, as PBS is subject to the FCC rules on language.  Generally I find I can suss out what the word is, so you aren't missing content, just the to-be-expected swearing.

And since apparently nearly every other program Ken Burns has done is on Netflix, I'm expecting this series will be too in a year or so.

[officetemp]

14 hours ago, magdalene said:

. . .

I started talking to the TV tonight - when they showed those volunteer teenage girls immediately at repairing Ho's trail after the Americans bombed it - I said, this is why the Americans are never going win here.

. . .

I wasn't talking to the TV last night, but, as the episode went on, I just kept wondering how many of those young faces that we saw actually survived the war.  Every time news network and/or military video footage was shown, or still pictures, I'd catch myself thinking, "Well, did they survive or was this taken just a few minutes before they were killed?  Did this guy make it to the next battle?  Did that one ever make it home?"  I was concerned, too, since the film makers didn't blank out the faces of the troops in the videos/photos, that a viewer--or many viewers--somewhere would see the image of a loved one or loved ones who never came back.  How painful would that be?  (Especially since it could be argued that the ordinary service members were so betrayed by the leadership higher-ups.)

Ken Burns, Lynn Novick and their production team must have waded through tens of thousands of hours of film and looked through millions of still photos to put this documentary together.  Plus having to listen to all of those tapes from the various presidential administrations.  Great job.  Gut-wrenching subject matter. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by officetemp

[SusanSunflower]

according to Zap2it TV guide (which I've used for years and recommend) on September 24th (Sunday) my local primary PBS station (I have two) will be showing the first 6 episodes ... beginning at 10:30 am 

wrt Diem: He makes some of our more recent puppets seem "good" in comparison ... we knew he would stuff the ballot boxes and warned him not to be too grotesquely obvious ... he did so anyway ....  Karzai maintained that Holbrook and Company stuffed the ballot boxes to make him look bad (which is actually not only possible, but even plausible since we had grown tired of Karzai's refusal to be fully "cooperative").  A savvy politician, it's unlikely that Karzai would have done something so stupid.  Diem simply was that arrogant, and so tied to the colonial mindset that he assumed he could get away with it (and he did).  Karzai may have been sabotaged to make him look bad or -- overzealous supporters may have acted stupidly.  Regardless, he "got away with it" too. 

 

Yes, the footage of the army of women and children repairing the ho chi minh trail was the highlight of the episode for me ... and it was difficult how despite being moved to tears of Moogly's death, those dump trucks full of vietnamese dead (and "body counts") were not erased.

 

eta:  There were many "joking" at the time that Karzai would do well to remember Diem's fate ... (Maliki as well, before his siege on Sadr City, but that's another story for another day) 

Edited September 21, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[magdalene]

You know who came across as almost worse than Diem to me?  His awful sister. She must have been absent when basic decency and empathy were doled out.

It struck me that there was a moment when - before this whole debacle began - Ho Chi Minh was asking for American help (he had quite admired American democracy).  If only somebody had had the foresight to get him on our side. Instead America got into bed with all these unspeakable South Vietnamese dictators.

[wonderwoman]

I had always known that some people on the inside had reservations both about our being there, and whether or not the war was winnable. But, something Ken Burns mentioned something last night on Charlie Rose that I had forgotton about (there was a lot of information in the five episodes I watched over two days:) is beyond comtempt. Don't remember which episode, but a memo from either Defense, State or the CIA quantified the reasons for staying in Vietnam: 70% to protect our standing in the world (paraphrasing here), 20% to contain China and 10% to aid the Vietnamese people. 

[SusanSunflower]

"We" couldn't reach out to Ho because he was a communist ... end of story ... utterly our way or the highway ... see also Cuba ... Didn't matter how corrupt or despotic the alternative and many countries newly liberated from colonialism were attracted to communism for various reasons, both ideological (they had experienced various aspects of "capitalism" under colonial rule) and practical (their countries were very poor and needed to devote all labor towards survival, not so much room for some business class to be extracting profits from an impoverished people just trying to stay fed, clothed, housed ... and Western aid came with certain conditions or strings different from those attached to aid from the communist countries. 

 

Our way or the highway ... we chose Diem and other similar "legacies" of colonial rule (which often featured a native "elite" class) ... it was not "by accident" ... it was consistent ideology. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[mightysparrow]

The Vietnamese witnesses seem more at peace than the Americans.  The Vietnamese (on either side) was fighting for their country, against an invader.  The Americans were the invaders.  They didn't know why they were there.  And most of them knew they were the bottom of the barrel of American society.  Imagine the sense of betrayal these men have carried for decades.  It's different now; we LOVE veterans now.  I read somewhere that more than twice as many people CLAIM they fought in Vietnam than actually fought.  How does a REAL vet feel about that?

[AuntiePam]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

The Vietnamese witnesses seem more at peace than the Americans.  The Vietnamese (on either side) was fighting for their country, against an invader.  The Americans were the invaders.  They didn't know why they were there.  And most of them knew they were the bottom of the barrel of American society.  Imagine the sense of betrayal these men have carried for decades.  It's different now; we LOVE veterans now.  I read somewhere that more than twice as many people CLAIM they fought in Vietnam than actually fought.  How does a REAL vet feel about that?

It's a truism that "real" vets are often reluctant to talk about their experience. 

Harumpf!  A "real vet" would be upset at being described as "from the bottom of the barrel".  How do you mean that?  There may have been fewer job opportunities for many of them, but they were hardly "bottom of the barrel".

[mightysparrow]

5 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

It's a truism that "real" vets are often reluctant to talk about their experience. 

Harumpf!  A "real vet" would be upset at being described as "from the bottom of the barrel".  How do you mean that?  There may have been fewer job opportunities for many of them, but they were hardly "bottom of the barrel".

I mean it exactly the way I said it.

The overwhelming majority of the men who fought the Vietnam war on the American side were poor Whites and African-Americans.  I don't know if you were alive at that time, but I was and those two groups were definitely at the bottom of the barrel of American society.  Just like I said.  And every 'real vet' I've ever met would be the first to tell you that.

Edited September 22, 2017 by mightysparrow

[officetemp]

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

"We" couldn't reach out to Ho because he was a communist ... end of story ... utterly our way or the highway . . .

I think another complicating factor was that Vietnam's colonial overlords were the French, who've been the US's allies since the American Revolutionary War.

 

Re:  "Bottom of the barrel"--I've usually heard that phrase used in a derogatory sense to describe the very dregs of society.  Unproductive, of unsound character, criminal, even.  I would think a more neutral description would be "on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder" in American society.  Working class or lower, but still with a lot of pride and self-respect and with a desire to support themselves and their families and to make positive contributions to American society in general.

 

I think tonight's episode highlighted that one of the greatest tragedies of the Vietnam War is how it stripped the men who actually engaged in combat of their humanity.  Or forced them to give up their humanity in order to survive.  Turned decent people into monsters.  (And only 20% of the personnel were actually in combat?  The rest in support?!)

So ludicrous to see Gen Westmoreland--who spent as much time in Washington, DC as he did in Theater, it seems--in his starched fatigues and presumably spit-shined boots, compared to the guys out in the field on the combat missions.  So clueless.  [By the way, was that Alexander Haig in one of those still photos with Westmoreland?]

Edited September 22, 2017 by officetemp

[SusanSunflower]

My mother was involved in an "underground railroad" for southern black war resisters ... in the small town south, anyone who didn't immediately show up to be inducted was a "marked man" ... they were shipped up north and then out of the country.... how dare they chose to petition for deferrment. 

 

Even in my middle class, southern California hometown, poor kids had no resources to question their draft status (and often had parents loathe to make waves or appear "unpatriotic") --- throughout the nation,  WWII veterans were not happy if their sons questioned showing up at the date and time that some bureaucrat declared. 

 

None of the kids (white, middle class)  I grew up with went to vietnam -- they had resources, lawyers, doctors, congressmen, teachers, clergy to (often eagerly) press their case for deferrment.  

[SusanSunflower]

I grew up around WWII vets who -- to a man -- refused to talk about their war ... to a degree that I suspect that
"not talking about it" was advised for those haunted by memories, before we had the PTSD diagnosis. 

Jim, Kathy's father, said he hated every minute of his time on a battleship in the Pacific.  Although not to be mentioned, Kevin and Greg's father suffered a nervous collapse the first of a lifetime of psychiatric hospitalizations when he was abandoned without relief serving all alone in an "observation outpost" in Alaska.  

Burns' series on WWII was memorable to me for detailing just how badly managed the "war in the pacific" was in the first years ... It was not remotely as I imagined and -- beyond McHale's Navy, Bridge on the River Kwai and Heaven Help Us Mr. Allison, suddenly my utter ignorance seemed likely "intentional" ... Much of the "war in the Pacific" seemingly was a tragic "comedy of errors" and mismanagement.  

 

YMMV. 

[AuntiePam]

46 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I mean it exactly the way I said it.

The overwhelming majority of the men who fought the Vietnam war on the American side were poor Whites and African-Americans.  I don't know if you were alive at that time, but I was and those two groups were definitely at the bottom of the barrel of American society.  Just like I said.  And every 'real vet' I've ever met would be the first to tell you that.

That brush is way too broad.

Yes, I was alive (I'm 72).  My husband -- and our friends who enlisted early on -- saw the military as a good option.  Some of them were lower middle-class, that's true, but they were hardly the dregs of society.  Look at any list of those who died and you'll see captains, majors, sergeants -- you don't get promoted unless you've shown aptitude and value.   Look at films of the Honor Flights going on now -- Korean and Viet Nam vets who returned home to become farmers, business owners, teachers.  I hate to see them still being insulted, so many years later.

I'd argue that Viet Nam had the same socio-economic mix as any other war -- except maybe WWI, which is notable for upper class participation (at least in the UK).

[snickers]

Quote

I mean it exactly the way I said it.

The overwhelming majority of the men who fought the Vietnam war on the American side were poor Whites and African-Americans.  I don't know if you were alive at that time, but I was and those two groups were definitely at the bottom of the barrel of American society.  Just like I said.  And every 'real vet' I've ever met would be the first to tell you that.

Well those "bottom of the barrel" men you speak of deserve more respect than what you are showing them right now. I think to be stuck on a mountain in the rain knowing any moment you could be blown to pieces and continue to fight, rescue the wounded is pretty darn brave. It just shows all how controversial all these years later this war still is. And yet people are still dogging these vets. 

 

This show is excellent by the way.

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, snickers said:

Well those "bottom of the barrel" men you speak of deserve more respect than what you are showing them right now. I think to be stuck on a mountain in the rain knowing any moment you could be blown to pieces and continue to fight, rescue the wounded is pretty darn brave. It just shows all how controversial all these years later this war still is. And yet people are still dogging these vets. 

 

This show is excellent by the way.

It's interesting that you think that telling the truth about how American society viewed the men they sent to die in Vietnam is disrespectful.  If their country had more respect for them, they might be alive today.  It's fashionable to honour veterans now but most of those men were betrayed by their country twice.  The first betrayal came when they were sent to fight a war they had no chance of winning using guns that didn't even work. .It's hard to think the men who were handed guns that blew up in their faces were 'valued' by the folks back home.  The second betrayal came when they returned home and treated like war criminals.  It took about 20 years for the parades to start.

 I would never presume to tell someone that their opinion or the way they express themselves doesn't measure up to my standards.  In my opinion, that would be 'disrespectful'.

Edited September 22, 2017 by mightysparrow

[mightysparrow]

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

My mother was involved in an "underground railroad" for southern black war resisters ... in the small town south, anyone who didn't immediately show up to be inducted was a "marked man" ... they were shipped up north and then out of the country.... how dare they chose to petition for deferrment. 

 

Even in my middle class, southern California hometown, poor kids had no resources to question their draft status (and often had parents loathe to make waves or appear "unpatriotic") --- throughout the nation,  WWII veterans were not happy if their sons questioned showing up at the date and time that some bureaucrat declared. 

 

None of the kids (white, middle class)  I grew up with went to vietnam -- they had resources, lawyers, doctors, congressmen, teachers, clergy to (often eagerly) press their case for deferrment.  

There were a lot of 'draft dodgers' here in Canada, men who were forced to leave their country because they didn't want to die in Vietnam and didn't have the money or social standing to get a deferment or a safe posting.  Only the super-patriotic or the poor and minorities did the fighting and the dying.

Your mom was a hero.  She probably saved a lot of lives.

Edited September 22, 2017 by mightysparrow

[Cheezwiz]

I'm so glad someone started a thread for this program. I've gotten through the first 4 episodes and am absolutely riveted.

Although I'm Canadian, and was just a small child when the U.S. finally pulled out  in '75, I've always had an interest in the Vietnam War. Even in Canada, no one ever discussed the war when I was growing up. It was hush, hush, and swept under the rug. Never taught in school whatsoever - it was as if all 20th Century geopolitical conflict ended with the Korean War. I always wanted to know why.

I can remember in the 70's being lined up in our elementary school gymnasium for some event involving parents and kids. There was a very dignified looking Asian woman simply dressed with her hair in  a long braid down her back holding her small children's hands. I can remember other parents and kids eyeing her uncomfortably whispering that they were refugees from Cambodia. I didn't understand why this was significant and why people would be whispering so furtively about it. A bit later there were also whispers in my suburban neighborhood about new arrivals who were American. The story was that they were suspected draft-dodgers. I wanted to know why all of this stuff wasn't spoken about in a more open manner. I sensed a terrible rawness even though my own country wasn't involved.

As an adult I've come to realize that only an accident of geography kept my Dad out of that conflict. He was the right age in the mid-60's, came from a working-class background, did not have the resources for a college education, and no influential contacts for deferment. Had he been born just a few miles south - below the 49th parallel, he most certainly would have been drafted. This is a weird thing to think about.

Thoughts on the program so far:

I am grateful they provided some background and context on the French colonial occupation. Am totally mystified as to why the U.S. did not take notes from their predecessors.

• Realizing I knew absolutely NOTHING about Ho Chi Minh. I had always assumed he was an autocratic vainglorious dictator along the lines of Stalin or Mao, and this clearly was not the case. Was shocked that he admired many American leaders and had tried to reach out to the U.S following WWII.
• I knew the South was a corrupt puppet state, but did not know the players. The detailed info on Diem, his brother Nhu and the deplorable Madame Nhu (ye gods!) was fascinating.
• They have done a good job of portraying the impossible situation Johnson was in. He was a fascinating and tragic figure. He was an SOB in many ways, but accomplished so much progressive legislation on the domestic front. You can sense genuine anguish on the tape recordings of his voice. He had such high hopes for his country and they totally got derailed by the war. 
• The testimony from soldiers on both sides has been very moving. The two interview bits that have stuck with me the most were from the soldier who said he initially thought he'd be most scared in an ambush or fire-fight, and then realized the most terrifying thing was simply putting one foot in front of the other walking down a trail or through a rice paddy. Also from the North Vietnamese soldier who was moved when he saw Americans weeping over their dead comrades.

My main takeaways:

In an international conflict, there is rarely a binary "good-guy" "bad-guy" situation. Instead, there are usually a bunch of shifting competing agendas, with many innocent people caught in the middle.

People never seem to learn. EVER.

Will keep watching and look forward to reading comments from others.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

People never seem to learn. EVER.

That's been my depressing take-away from all this.  During the Vietnam War many young men were re-defining "patriot," as someone who loved their country and believed in it's tradition of kindness to other nations.  Those patriots were ashamed that US soldiers were acting as invaders in a poor country that was only seeking independence for themselves.  Stories of Vietnamese civilians being killed were all over college campuses, we knew LBJ was keeping the full truth from us.  But even now those who refused to go, went to Canada, or used college deferments are seen by many as unpatriotic cowards who were afraid to fight.  No they didn't hold parades for the returning soldiers because a huge portion of their peer group had been begging them not to go and warning them of the atrocities they would be asked to perform.

The young men who did go were unbelievably brave  and they were, in many ways the best of our society;  courageous and healthy with noble ideals,  but it would have been asking the rest of us to be morally dishonest if we had quit protesting against the war and thrown celebrations for the returning soldier all in the interest of  "supporting our troops."  I've always hated that idea that we must pretend a war is good for the sake of the ones who are fighting and keep sending more young men to die so that the lives who went before would not have been in vain. Where would all that end?  Then and now, I "support the troops," by trying to  bring them home.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I can't recall if it was The Seventies or another documentary, but I recall how it was only the officers who were POWs and POWs who were welcomed when they returned home, while everyone else who had gone to fight and returned home were treated horribly. I know Hollywood likes to glamorize, but I remember watching Major Dad, right around the time the troops came home after the Persian Gulf war, and Gerald McRaney's character was very somber and not cheering at the celebratory welcome the troops were getting.  When his wife asked why he wasn't more glad, he brought up Vietnam, and how when he returned, he and his men got the opposite treatment. It was very bittersweet, and Gerald McRaney did a very good job to convey why some Vietnam Vets would feel bitter about it. Not against the soldiers coming home, but against society. I think. I just remember how moved I was by his performance. I've always wondered if he actually served, since his character on Simon and Simon (Rick), was also a Vietnam Vet.

So I'll be hunking down this weekend to watch this series online (I have very good internet connection), and I don't want the edited version.

[PodcastTown]

As soon as the U.S pulled out of Vietnam, the Khmer Rouge sieged an entire country and executed a million plus people in Cambodia.