S19.E35: Head of Household #13; Nominations #13

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Paul may be kind of a dick sometimes but he hasn't committed any crimes

Oh, I don't know…

California Penal Code, Section 415:

Quote

Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment and fine:

(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or challenges another person in a public place to fight.

(2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another person by loud and unreasonable noise.

Only a violation, but Paul's repeated violations of subsection (2) against both Cody and Jessica might get him a higher charge.  If the judge determined there was a "credible threat" against anyone, then the harassment would merit a charge of stalking (CPL 649.2), which is a misdemeanor, and carries penalties of up to 1 year in jail (or a $1000 fine).

There's probably some sort of "incitement" violation, as well, given Paul's getting Josh to do his dirty work, but I haven't looked for it, as yet.

And, in the real world, Paul (and Josh) would be subject to a Temporary Restraining Order on behalf of Cody/Jessica, under the California Code of Civil Procedure (CCP), Section 527.6 (b) 3:

Quote

(3) “Harassment” is unlawful violence, a credible threat of violence, or a knowing and willful course of conduct directed at a specific person that seriously alarms, annoys, or harasses the person, and that serves no legitimate purpose. The course of conduct must be that which would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, and must actually cause substantial emotional distress to the petitioner.

If Paul/Josh were to violate the order, they would be committing a misdemeanor, under CPL 273.65 (c) 1.

Disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer, I just use Google.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Halting Hex

[Rachel RSL]

Ok, if we're going by that criminal code, TONS of former reality show contestants would be in jail. Common sense needs to prevail sometimes.  Those laws are made for real life, not for people playing a game on tv.

[Halting Hex]

Well, what's to be done about it is an entirely different issue.  I just know that "[Paul] hasn't committed any crimes" set off my "Oh, yeah?" button.  As to how it fits into the bigger picture, well…

And I don't know about "tons" of former contestants.  How many sustained abuse campaigns have there been on BB, exactly?  Dick was abusive to various BB 8 contestants (Jen, Kail, Dustin), but none for such a continued course of harassment as Paul has orchestrated here.  

11 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Those laws are made for real life, not for people playing a game on tv.

But there is the whole "you can't sign away your rights" legal principle, IIRC.  Not that I'm necessarily calling for Paul to be imprisoned, but I would dispute the idea that taking away his (presumed) prize money would be unfair because all his actions were within the scope of the game.  It's up to Production to determine that, and should they wish to give the prize to Hurricane Relief (don't worry, they won't), I'm reasonably sure they would be allowed to do that.

3 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Remember when Christmas won a running comp while on crutches because Paul managed to not only get everyone to throw the comp, but told them in what order to throw it?

Thinking about this, what's revolting is not only that Paul did this, but that he needed to get Production's permission to have Xmas play in the comp.  Which means that he had to explain his "everybody throws it, nobody actually runs" strategy, and they had to co-sign it.  Because, I guess, they thought it would be "funny".  

Oh, ha-ha.  JFC.

[Nashville]

10 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

And I don't know about "tons" of former contestants.  How many sustained abuse campaigns have there been on BB, exactly?  Dick was abusive to various BB 8 contestants (Jen, Kail, Dustin), but none for such a continued course of harassment as Paul has orchestrated here.  

Amanda's campaign against Elissa's HoH - BB15.

[Wandering Snark]

Any time I think BB harrasment Howie springs to mind:

Edited September 12, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[green]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

But there is the whole "you can't sign away your rights" legal principle, IIRC. 

Actually reality shows get their contestants to sign away their lives basically.  If Christmas had fallen a different way and landed in her neck and broke it and died none of her relatives could have sued BB or CBS.  They have ironclad contracts that cover almost everything and contestants sign away a lot to be on these shows.

Granted if one contest kills another they can be held responsible.  But not production or the network.  Production has the right to throw someone out of the game if they think real, life threatening violence is imminent too.  There hasn't been anything near that this season.  No one running around with an actual kitchen knife this go round.  Just obnoxious behavior to the extreme.  But not life-threatening behavior. 

Mark throwing hot sauce on Josh's face was probably the most lethal "attack" this season and BB just comes on the loudspeaker and tells the two meatballs to "cut it out".  If they threw out anyone for anything like that their cast would be gone a month into the season.  Which, come to think of how bad this season has turned out to be, might have been a good thing.

Also production couldn't decide to give the prize money to charity.  That is part of the legal deal.  They have to pay the winner period.  They can pull a lot of stuff to favor someone winning on a show like BB as opposed to The Amazing Race where who wins, wins and non-elimination points etc are set in stone while BB can tinker surprises and competitions as they go along.  But they cannot NOT pay out the winner.

[Halting Hex]

52 minutes ago, green said:

They have ironclad contracts that cover almost everything and contestants sign away a lot to be on these shows.

And BB relies on these contracts, but whenever a situation such as this comes up, there's a lot of opinion that such a contract would be unenforceable, on the principles cited above.  I'm sure it makes Grodner/Endemol/CBS feel better knowing that they have the contracts, but that doesn't mean they would be upheld in court.

55 minutes ago, green said:

No one running around with an actual kitchen knife this go round.

Well, to be fair, that's because they haven't had access to such cutlery since S2.  (Thank you, Justin "How would you feel if I killed you?" Sebek for that.)  Who knows what Josh might have done if he'd had the full utensil kit at his whim?

57 minutes ago, green said:

Mark throwing hot sauce on Josh's face was probably the most lethal "attack" this season and BB just comes on the loudspeaker and tells the two meatballs to "cut it out". 

BB has hardly been consistent about their standards for protecting contestants through the seasons.  Scott Weintraub (S4) got the boot for throwing a chair in an empty room.  Chima (S11) was tossed for basically sassing Production too often. (And threatening to blow up on the live show, if they used Bigot Jeff's "Coop-dee Taw" to humiliate her.)  Yet Dick got away with burning Jen with a cigarette, twice (which he later admitted he did on purpose) and there was this season's fluid-flinging, as you note.  The fact that BB has not been consistent in their expulsions doesn't mean that people (such as Willie Hantz) shouldn't have been expelled, IMO.

1 hour ago, green said:

production couldn't decide to give the prize money to charity.  That is part of the legal deal.  They have to pay the winner period

They slid Derrick an extra $50,000 with no information being provided to the viewers or to the "Team America" players about this bonus until after the fact.  If they can alter the prize money in one direction, I'm sure the infamous "contracts" allow them enough leeway to cut it, as well.  And yes, Paul could fight it in court, just as I noted that Cody and Jessica and Mark and Kevin could fight the "we don't have to protect you, Paul can do what he wants" provisions in court, but he's no more guaranteed to win than they would be.

If Stacey Stillman (Survivor S1) and CBS hadn't settled out of court (over Stacey's suit that Mark Burnett rigged her vote-off in order to keep Rudy on the show), we'd know more about these issues.  But they did, so we don't.

[Rachel RSL]

2 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, to be fair, that's because they haven't had access to such cutlery since S2.

For real? I had no clue. Freaking Justin! What do they eat with? Plastic knives and forks?

[Ananayel]

They may not be able to alter the prize for this season, but they could certainly write it into the contracts for future seasons. They could also add penalties for throwing comps, similar to the alleged punishments for breaking Have Not rules. Perhaps if they did, people might actually play to win.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And BB relies on these contracts, but whenever a situation such as this comes up, there's a lot of opinion that such a contract would be unenforceable, on the principles cited above.  

Im sure that opinion is widely held by those not favored by said contracts.  :)

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Chima (S11) was tossed for basically sassing Production too often. (And threatening to blow up on the live show, if they used Bigot Jeff's "Coop-dee Taw" to humiliate her.)  

Really?  I thought China got bounced for chucking about $3K worth of Production's microphone equipment into the pool.

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Im sure that opinion ["you can't sign away your rights"] is widely held by those not favored by said contracts.  :)

Oh, no doubt.  But hardly exclusively by them. I first learned of the principle when Actual Lawyers brought it up, in fora such as these.

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

I thought China got bounced for chucking about $3K worth of Production's microphone equipment into the pool.

That hardly endeared her to Production, it's true.  But it wasn't an immediate bounce, IIRC, and it appears that Grodner and co. took the totality of Chima's actions into their decision.  After all, if it was just about the microphone, they could simply have docked her stipend.

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

What do they eat with? Plastic knives and forks?

To my understanding, they get regular forks and spoons.  They have butter knives, but no steak knives/cleavers/etc.  Not sure where standard dinner knives fall on the permitted spectrum.  And I'd think that bread knives are too serrated, but I don't know for sure.  But I doubt that a paring knife, for example, would be allowed.

Possibly somebody has posted the complete list of allowable items online somewhere, but I don't where that "somewhere" would be.  I do think this is part of the reason that the Final 3 will be happy to do Friday's "Remember When…?" show, because the feast they get includes a full set of applicable cutlery to use.  (As did the Outback Promo reward, for that matter.)  Nothing wrong with burgers and ribs, but it may have been a while since the HGs have had a steak, due to the knife issues.  More research would be needed to know everything about this, though.

[eurekagirl mOo]

It's a GAME people! Calm down. No one's getting shanked. Football players regularly smash into opponents to hurt them and it's ok because it's a GAME. They signed up to play. You get what you get in any game. This game is about deceiving,  back stabbing, and getting people on your side. Love him or hate him Paul has done that. And yes, I do think he's being a bit obnoxious but it's so much fun!

How the heck would they cook with no knives?? Seriously? Kind of hard to cut a ton of stuff for dinner with a bread knife and I've seen people cooking. There has to be some way for them to do that. And no, I doubt the've had steak in a while but that (I would think) has more to do with cost then knives. 

I want Kevin for the win! Wouldn't that shock them all down to there "pacemakers" and tattoos.

By the way for someone who is so "sick" Raven did a pretty impressive somersault when she came out. 

[ghoulina]

I agree that being a "vet" Big Brother isn't the same as being a "pro" in other circumstances. But there ARE, in my mind, certain advantages. For one, you're already mentally prepared for what living in that house is like. So it's not going to be as big of an adjustment for you. You can likely focus more on "game" earlier, because you're not dealing how hard it is so be cut off from everything and stuck with all these people non-stop.  I'm not saying it's a walk in the park for those who have done it before. But I do think that being in the BB house is something you really can't fathom until you've actually done it. If you've already done it, you'll acclimate quicker than newbies. 

Second, and this one isn't a given, but if there are comps that are identical or very similar to ones you've played before, I do think that gives you a slight advantage. Yes, we all see them on TV. But watching them and playing them are two different things. 

But, as to actual gameplay, I don't think vets have THAT big of an advantage, because every year it's different. You can't play the people from season 15 the same way you played those from season 14. Different people, different dynamics, (sometimes) different twists. In that sense, they're all really starting from scratch. And I don't think the things I've talked about above are SUCH a huge advantage that a returning player should run away with the game like Paul has. I think you also have to factor in how pathetic and hive minded these people are. 

I still don't really like the dynamics of ONE returning player, though. It's just blah. 

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

How the heck would they cook with no knives?? Seriously? Kind of hard to cut a ton of stuff for dinner with a bread knife and I've seen people cooking. There has to be some way for them to do that.

Presumably they have kitchen gadgets like food choppers and bread saws that will do the job without being good weapons.

[Nashville]

11 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Presumably they have kitchen gadgets like food choppers and bread saws that will do the job without being good weapons.

In truth, I doubt TPTB really worries that much about it any more.  Every HG already knows from past history that just waving a knife in a generic manner could get their ass launched out of the House on a rocket, so fear of blowing the payday means Production could probably park a matched set of Ginsus in a kitchen drawer without fear of misuse.

[Rachel RSL]

I'm still puzzled over the original incident that got knives banned. Is "Would you get mad if I killed you?” supposed to be flirting? Such a WTF moment.

[JudyObscure]

  This group really just needs cereal spoons and their grubby little mitts.

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Presumably they have kitchen gadgets like food choppers and bread saws that will do the job without being good weapons.

I don't know what you mean about bread "saw", but my bread knife is the deadliest knife I own. Granted, I'm notoriously clumsy in the kitchen and could probably kill myself with a tiny cereal spoon. But my bread knife is th the one that sent me to ER with a huge chunk of my finger scooped out. 

 

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

I'm still puzzled over the original incident that got knives banned. Is "Would you get mad if I killed you?” supposed to be flirting? Such a WTF moment.

My first HS boyfriend once asked me, "If I cut my finger off and gave it to you, would you wear it around your neck?" Dafuq???? 

[green]

12 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Having the ability to throw a comp is part of the game, that shouldn't be taken away.  Besides, if there was a rule against throwing comps, how is anyone going to be able to prove that any house guest intentionally threw one?

Well the show is suppose to entertain us and when all competitions are always thrown it gets darn boring.  But if they add some money or a prize to winning competitions that might make some of them actually compete.  And add to the strategy.  "Do I throw this to satisfy the stupid jerk running the house or do I take a thousand bucks cause he will get me evicted before the end most likely anyway?"

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

In truth, I doubt TPTB really worries that much about it any more.  Every HG already knows from past history that just waving a knife in a generic manner could get their ass launched out of the House on a rocket, so fear of blowing the payday means Production could probably park a matched set of Ginsus in a kitchen drawer without fear of misuse.

Ah but sir you are assuming that these little hamsters are always cool, calm and rational at all and every moment in said house.

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I don't know what you mean about bread "saw", but my bread knife is the deadliest knife I own.

What I had in mind is shaped like a coping saw, although others resemble mini bow saws (i.e. a shallower curve with no handle). It's not a stabbing weapon, although if you started waving it around, the blade could still do some damage before it fell off or broke.

[backformore]

14 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Having the ability to throw a comp is part of the game, that shouldn't be taken away.  Besides, if there was a rule against throwing comps, how is anyone going to be able to prove that any house guest intentionally threw one?

I have no problem with a HG deciding to throw a competition - if they decide they don't want to win for whatever reason.  I DO have a problem with a group of them agreeing to all throw a comp,  to sort of decide together who will win the comp.  Or for one player to decide and tell the others the plan to throw the comp.   Just like they are not supposed to agree ahead of time to split the prize money, I think getting caught  in an agreement to have a certain person win a comp, should carry a penalty. 

They should not have been able to all agree that Xmas would win a comp.  They ALL agreed that she should win, so then they all had to pretend to play.   It was a low point this season, with nobody even trying to win. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by backformore

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, green said:

Ah but sir you are assuming that these little hamsters are always cool, calm and rational at all and every moment in said house.

Oh, no way; however, I do think the narcissistic little hamsters are operating on a highly refined (purest strain, even) basis of self-interest while in the House.  While their in-House antics may be carried to extremes, their innate sense of self-preservation will put the brakes on any behavior which prior evidence has indicated might screw up their perceived "ticket to the stars".  And while there will always be exceptions - some of which may or may not be named "Hantz" - I expect the Willie Whacko percentage to be WAY down in the single digits.

[Snappy]

Paul has played the entire house like a virtuoso! You had all these people claiming to be super fans, and they had no clue how a vet would play. Don't hate the player for playing. Hate the non-players for giving it away, wrapped and tied with a shiny bow.

[Diana Berry]

On 9/10/2017 at 7:08 PM, MarysWetBar said:

I would rather see noone win this season over Paul. This wasn't a fair season for the following reasons: 

1. Paul as a vet had played the game all the way to the end already.

2. Paul had already played at least 2 of the competitions, giving him more practice.

3. 3 weeks free of nominations and bracelets.

4. Production interference.

His vile whipping up of the other players is shitty but shows his inherent character rather than his gameplay, so if you appreciate that side of him then fill your boots! ?

I honestly feel that TPTB have flat out told the other hamsters to keep Paul in or else.  None of this is believable.

[MarysWetBar]

On 2017-9-12 at 5:13 PM, Wandering Snark said:

Any time I think BB harrasment Howie springs to mind:

OMG thank you for posting that clip! That almost feels like the last season i was truly engaged in. I wasn't happy with the outcome at all and cringe when ppl include the winner in"best of bb" lists, but holy it was an exciting season. REAL competitors! Veto King James, Jedi Janie...I loved it all! Does anyone remember all 3'8 of Cappy strutting around the yard? Bahaha!

[endure]

What a bunch of cry babies and sore losers lol!  I feel like I'm watching a bunch loonies going through drug withdrawal or something causing them to over react.

[BK1978]

Tad bit off topic but this came to my mind watching Alex leave and I could not think where else to post it.  I wish the American Big Brother house was like the BB Can house so that when the people are voted out they have to climb a set of stairs to leave the house.  To me it makes the walk of shame that much sweeter, especially when someone is blindsided. 

[LoneHaranguer]

14 hours ago, backformore said:

They should not have been able to all agree that Xmas would win a comp.  They ALL agreed that she should win, so then they all had to pretend to play.   It was a low point this season, with nobody even trying to win.

The impression I got was that most of the group was doing it to be nice, so it's about as close to a high point as you can get, given that you'll always have folks with ulterior motives.