S03.E18: Part 18

[Pete Martell]

45 minutes ago, queenanne said:

I would suspect the duration of the NDA has more to do with network reservations about Lynch's timing and deadlines meeting capacity,  maybe...  the head of Showtime seemed to answer the question pretty definitely a few (?) weeks ago at the Upfront's, basically saying 'There was never any discussion for anything further than one-and-done.'

 If Showtime were a ratings motivated venue, I'd say it depends on ratings.  Because it isn't and thus doesn't, I don't feel wildly positive about the chances of a Season 4, considering the statements of the network head.  I would think if there were wiggle room, he would have made a vaguer statement.  'We're always open to discussion,' or similar.

They also said things like, "The door is always open." I think that they are likely assuming this was it and maybe leaving a bit of doubt. One thing I notice is that the media articles that blare in flashing lights that there will be no more always take comments out of context - especially Kyle's latest comments. It's odd to me. 

[TattleTeeny]

Allow me to channel Harriet Hayward when I say now that some time has passed...

I don't think I liked The Return as a whole. There, I said it!

There were many fabulous aspects, both new and nostalgic, that I dug very much. But the other stuff (for lack of a better term) -- and the sheer volume of it -- for me buried everything that I'd hoped season three might be. I'm not saying that I needed a rehash or a duplicate, or that I am labeling The Return bad simply because it wasn't what I imagined (and I am not even sure what I imagined), just that I think where it went strayed from what I loved about it way back when.

That said, I've never been a big David Lynch fan, though I have always been a big Twin Peaks fan. I think that's a huge part of why I didn't love The Return...though, to be clear, I did very much love that it happened at all, if that makes sense. 

[smores]

It makes total sense to me.  Lynch kind of crapped on some of the fans of the show with this.  It's his right, I suppose, it's his product and he can take it where he wants, but at the same time, I feel that you have to somewhat honor the audience as you wouldn't have the opportunity to make the product in the first place.  

It's like with Batman, clearly the Batman movies in the 80s/90s were vastly different than the Christopher Nolan ones.  Both are valid takes on Batman, and some people like one while not caring for the other, while you have people who just like Batman and are happy to have Batman movies to see no matter what.  And then there are people who like Batman, like both movies but feel that one is maybe better than the other because x or y.  But, at the end of the day, Batman is still true to what he was in the comic, he is a super hero with a conflicted past who fights crime according to his code.  He fights the Joker.  You couldn't take Batman and set the entire movie in outer space or some lost underwater city and have it be the same thing.  You couldn't make Batman a woman, it just wouldn't work, as that's not the world that was already created.  I feel like that's what happened here. 

[Moxie Cat]

1 hour ago, PatternRec said:

Sherilynn Fenn  has said that she shot more than what was shown. Other actors have said they suspect there will be more.

I totally think this could be the case. Look at FWWM and "The Missing Pieces." And that took almost 20 years to be released! A five year NDA is nothing in that context. This time, they have the benefit of that experience to learn from.

Maybe Lynch would like to do a follow up on Showtime and is giving it time to work that out. And if it doesn't work out, he can put his own follow up together for streaming or Blu-Ray, based on the unaired filmed scenes - and heck, I bet he would have no problem getting Kyle, Sherilyn, and Sheryl to film a couple more scenes if needed. But I kind of think he has filmed everything he wanted already. That likelihood doesn't mean there isn't more out there to come someday, somehow.

Fenn's reaction probably means that she knows all of this, because I can't imagine she would be OK with leaving Audrey screaming into a mirror.

[Nashville]

On 9/3/2017 at 11:14 PM, scottiB said:

Who Is Judy?!?! :)

"Judy" was the embodiment of Evil - the gray monster which vomited up the BOB-orb, which ripped up the copulating couple in New York.

 

On 9/4/2017 at 3:29 PM, Giant Misfit said:

Well, maybe in the dimension/reality where Laura isn't dead anymore, Audrey does have that life since the Butterfly Effect might be in play. Or maybe Audrey never existed at all since it seems the Palmers never lived in the home -- I suspect any "reality" of Twin Peaks is now open for possibilities. 

A few observations - all purely MHOs:

1. When Cooper intercepted Laura in the woods, he diverted her from the fateful meeting with Jacque/Leo/Ronette which led to her original untimely demise - which is why her plastic-wrapped body disapparates, never to be found by Pete.
2. This one change Butterflies many other things, though.  Coop never comes to Twin Peaks in the first place.  Audrey never goes to One-Eyed Jack's, and thus never learns the truth about her father.  The entire Josie/Packard story may play out differently - or it may play out the same, save BOB's possession of Josie.  Annie would have never gotten involved in the Ms. Twin Peaks competition, or the personally disastrous side effects of her participation.  Donna and James would have never gotten involved, which means Donna and Mike might never have broken up, which means Mike and Nadine may never have gotten involved, which means Ed and Norma may never have ended up together... well, you get the idea.
3. If Coop had succeeded in taking Laura to the Lodge portal, reunification with her Lodge-ensconced self would have closed the loop on Judy and BOB's machinations.  Judy therefore snatched Laura (good exiting scream, btw) and hid her brainwashed (a la "Carrie Page") in an alternate reality to keep the loop open, and the Judy-inspired misery active.
4. The other Lodge occupants (Tremonds and Chalfonts) participate in this alternate reality cover-up, as their existences depend upon it as well (more Butterflying).
5. The alternate reality veil is pierced, however, when "Carrie" hears Sarah Palmer's voice calling for her daughter - a call which Laura, not dead in the new reality, can now answer.  The associated psychic shock destroys the illusion, and Carrie (now Laura again) screams the scream we heard upon Laura's initial abduction.  The Palmer House goes dark, signifying the extinguishing of the power wielded by Judy and the Lodge occupants.
6. We are left to assume(?) Laura returns to the woods at the screamed point of abduction, there to be reunified with her Lodge-occupying self by the Fireman.

Still a lot of loose ends left lying around, though - like Audrey and Shelly and Bobby and Becky and Ben and Beverly and Jerry and Norma and Big Ed and Nadine and Dr. Jacoby and Hawk and Andy and Lucy and Wally and Sheriff Truman and Sheriff Truman and Candie and....  :>

Edited September 5, 2017 by Nashville
Formatting

[Pete Martell]

29 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I totally think this could be the case. Look at FWWM and "The Missing Pieces." And that took almost 20 years to be released! A five year NDA is nothing in that context. This time, they have the benefit of that experience to learn from.

Maybe Lynch would like to do a follow up on Showtime and is giving it time to work that out. And if it doesn't work out, he can put his own follow up together for streaming or Blu-Ray, based on the unaired filmed scenes - and heck, I bet he would have no problem getting Kyle, Sherilyn, and Sheryl to film a couple more scenes if needed. But I kind of think he has filmed everything he wanted already. That likelihood doesn't mean there isn't more out there to come someday, somehow.

Fenn's reaction probably means that she knows all of this, because I can't imagine she would be OK with leaving Audrey screaming into a mirror.

I'd forgotten they had Lynch "interviewing" Sarah, Leland and Laura on the Blu-Ray release 3-4 years ago. I wonder if this may be something like that. 

[Penman61]

Two groups that annoy me equally:

1. Lynch cultists who chirp "You just don't get it" when objections worth considering are made to the master's work.
2. People who assume bad faith on the part of the storyteller ("cheat"), that he's just fucking or fucking with his audience for his own diabolical pleasure and for no other purpose than expressing derision for that audience. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Penman61

[meep.meep]

13 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

That'll make Lynch 96 so I kinda doubt it! :D

 

I recommend cheated. I don't think anyone is intelligent enough for David Lynch -- in David Lynch's mind, anyway. So, yeah, cheated it is.

I feel like one of the Villagers from Into the Woods, just before they kill the storyteller.  "Some of us don't like the way you're telling it!"

I doubt that Lynch cares about the people who disliked this or feel cheated.  It's his looney vision, and clearly there are at least a few people who seem to think it's worth it.  And the rest of us don't need to watch anymore.  To me, it's just mindlessly stirring the same convoluted elements over and over in a big pot, and stopping now and then to pretend that it's done.

What he's making isn't art.  Most of it doesn't even have beauty or visual interest.  And if he can't be bothered to tell a story, then I have better things to do.

[LoveLeigh]

There are some tales about creating alternate realities that are thought provoking and appealing and simply done without all the hoopla. "Quantum Leap" did it 30 years ago. And that show was pretty damn good. 

But to me, David Lynch goes down his personal rabbit hole and expects everybody else to follow his thinking without him offering up some clarity about the plot as it unfolds. It's a guessing game with him and he provides no answers. He expects people to be fascinated by a window into his bizarre world and that could be fine and interesting. But with most of his work, too much speculation is involved as people try to figure out the whole damn thing. 

To me, Twin Peaks is a Twilight Zone episode for the new age. It's a maze wrapped in an enigma and I do not agree with the reviewers who are calling The Return a masterpiece. It's similar to American Gods, visual cotton candy and what Lawrence Ferlinghetti once called his collection of poems, "A Coney island of the Mind."

Who cares if Laura Palmer died years ago and in some alternate reality she is alive. It's just David Lynch being David Lynch. And as I said before, I think he created The Mandela Effect. And The Mandela Effect is more interesting. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

"Judy" was the embodiment of Evil - the gray monster which vomited up the BOB-orb, which ripped up the copulating couple in New York.

 

Judy is the mother / sister of BOB? What is in Sarah Palmer? A third Lodge entity?

Does Judy have Skynet powers? Can she keep sending different Terminators back to different timelines ad infinitum?

[Pete Martell]

14 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

I doubt that Lynch cares about the people who disliked this or feel cheated.

I think he cares, he probably just doesn't let it influence him very much, because most of what people say about him now (that he's a hack, a phony artist, he hates women, he's pretentious, that he is too lazy and sloppy to tell stories) has been said for many years. If he let it affect him he'd end up being like an interview I saw a few years ago with the guy who wrote Come Back to the 5 and Dime, Jimmy Dean, who decades after the fact was still angry and hurt over the terrible reviews his play got and saying that they crippled him so much he wasn't able to write for ages afterward. Or Sofia Coppola more recently, who went on a somewhat two-faced quasi-apology tour for The Beguiled essentially erasing black characters from the narrative and acting like she was doing a service. I'm sure Lynch must know that many will feel some of his stuff, like the whole Asian woman turns into a white woman wearing wigs and clothes that are often associated with Japanese women or Asian women, etc. is inappropriate, but he isn't going to respond either way. And usually responding just makes everyone feel worse anyway, especially in the social media age, so maybe he's right, I don't know.

It's an odd feeling to feel that a director does and doesn't care, but it's probably what I'd describe in this case. He did care enough to bring a lot of old characters back when many of them didn't need to be back, and for the most part I think he did right by them. Whether that was for fans, I don't know, but I'd say fans were a part of it. There were also moments clearly designed to get a reaction from fans, sometimes to set them up for a fall (Cooper's "I am the FBI" as hubris, Audrey's dance ultimately turning to horror), but other times in kinder ways (Ed and Norma getting back together). Yet he still was uninterested enough in fans to be fine with just putting everything in the town on pause, maybe for all time. Or some would say erasing it entirely.

Quote

 And if he can't be bothered to tell a story, then I have better things to do.

That was one of the parts of the season that I thought was interesting, while also being very disjointed, in that he did tell a very consistent story throughout the season with the Vegas group, right up to the last episode, where Janey and Sonny Jim got their happy ending. 

Of course someone would say, "I don't care about these people, I watch the show for Twin Peaks," which I get. I can't guess whether he had no real interest in not wrapping up the stories in Twin Peaks or if they were never supposed to be wrapped up because he was always going to have Cooper tear them all to pieces. I just wish they'd given a bit more closure before they went that route.

6 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Who cares if Laura Palmer died years ago and in some alternate reality she is alive.  

I care, mostly because Laura is what drew me to Twin Peaks and the story will always be about her for me. I have mixed feelings about the finale but if nothing else I'm glad the show ended on her and what she went through. The reminder of her suffering will never go away in discussion of the show from now on, as it shouldn't. 

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Judy is the mother / sister of BOB? What is in Sarah Palmer? A third Lodge entity?

Presumably one of Judy's "offspring", in the same sense as BOB and the Woodsmen. 

I say "offspring" since they were all apparently vomited up by Judy at the same time, in the wake of the Trinity A-bomb test.

[dwmckim]

Say whatever you will about the finale, but you gotta appreciate how a character whose mantra has been saying "Fuck you" to various FBI personnel ended her time onscreen by physically doing precisely that to Agent Cooper.

[Ms Lark]

8 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

But to me, David Lynch goes down his personal rabbit hole and expects everybody else to follow his thinking without him offering up some clarity about the plot as it unfolds. It's a guessing game with him and he provides no answers. He expects people to be fascinated by a window into his bizarre world and that could be fine and interesting. But with most of his work, too much speculation is involved as people try to figure out the whole damn thing. 

To me, Twin Peaks is a Twilight Zone episode for the new age. It's a maze wrapped in an enigma and I do not agree with the reviewers who are calling The Return a masterpiece. It's similar to American Gods, visual cotton candy and what Lawrence Ferlinghetti once called his collection of poems, "A Coney island of the Mind."

I like what you wrote here, especially the part about expecting everyone to follow him down the rabbit hole with no clarity about the plot. Well put. Now, my mom was kinda Beat back in her day, knew Ferlinghetti, and I freaking' loved "A Coney Island of the Mind" from a young age. Lynch is no Ferlinghetti!

[LoveLeigh]

5 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

I like what you wrote here, especially the part about expecting everyone to follow him down the rabbit hole with no clarity about the plot. Well put. Now, my mom was kinda Beat back in her day, knew Ferlinghetti, and I freaking' loved "A Coney Island of the Mind" from a young age. Lynch is no Ferlinghetti!

It is almost as if David Lynch has fever dreams and hallucinations and his body of work keeps repeating these same themes over and over. And he always refuses to give clarity to his work WITHIN the work. Look at "Inland Empire" and "Mulholland Drive." He inserts rabbits and blue boxes and people collapsing, and weird people and rooms and expects his audience to sit there and figure it all out. To me, it is all very very narcissistic on his part. 

I like esoteric and complicated films, but at the end of the film the audience should not have to interpret the whole damn thing and the meaning of so many things. It is impossible because we do not have a window into his mind. It's all a guessing game. 

So I watch his work and take it at face value and do not try to figure it out. It just exists.

ETA: Let me provide an example. I adored the series "The Night Of." As it unfolded, we gathered here to speculate and to try to figure out the clues in each episode. We were frustrated and wanted answers. But, by the end of the last episode all the pieces of the puzzle fit together and we had most answers to the plot. 

When IMDb was around, fans gathered for years at the message boards discussing the meaning of each part of "Mulholland Drive." There were multiple interpretations to each scene within the entire plot and the context of what unfolded on the screen provided no clear answers. How does that make David Lynch's work  masterpiece? In the final analysis, it was a hodgepodge of disconnected and confusing scenes. And he was not there to explain anything, so while it may be interesting to float around the meaning of each part, each part could mean anything. To me, that is just poor writing. 

I could think "Twin Peaks, The Return" took place in a child's snow globe, like the end of St. Elsewhere... and who would say I am wrong with positivity? 

Edited September 6, 2017 by DakotaLavender
more text

[Pete Martell]

7 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

It is almost as if David Lynch has fever dreams and hallucinations and his body of work keeps repeating these same themes over and over. And he always refuses to give clarity to his work WITHIN the work. Look at Inland Empire and Mulholland Drive. He inserts rabbits and blue boxes and people collapsing, and weird people and rooms and expects his audience to sit there and figure it all out. To me, it is all very very narcissistic. 

I like esoteric and complicated films, but at the end of the film the audience should not have to interpret the whole damn thing and the meaning of so many things. it is impossible because we do not have a window into his mind. It's all a guessing game. 

So I watch his work and take it at face value and do not try to figure it out. It just exists.

For me the main movie he made that felt deliberately incoherent was Inland Empire, which felt like scattered images and I had a hard time getting through. A lot of this season has felt like scattered images as well, I just ended up being drawn into most of them. There were also themes alongside images, some more coherent than others. It sounds very pretentious when I type it out - I guess it's more about what I feel when watching it than how it sounds when I write it down. 

I think my main takeaway was that the season was about accepting what you are and trying not to look back. And not mourning for a world that never existed or only exists now because you need it. Given our current climate that was more potent to me than it might have been in the past. Sometimes I wonder if this show had come out in 2013 or 2014 would I have as generous a reaction. I'm not sure. But I was able to accept most of this and appreciate it - in some way I felt like I sort of needed it.

I saw a TV critic saying that if this didn't have Lynch's name attached people would call it a shitpile. That may be true, but I think it also overinflates how much people will tolerate inscrutable woo-woo type stuff. I think there was some sort of unique power in a lot of what this season tried to do, even as I wish some things had been done differently. Not so much the floor-sweeping or filler moments as things that now feel like a slog since they had no real payoff - all the time on Richard, or on Matthew Lillard wailing, et al. I guess it was on me for being lulled into thinking there would be a payoff. I'm willing to handwave it for the most part, but the Audrey stuff I do hope we get resolution for in some form. I'd say Becky as well but if she was killed off I'd rather not know.

This was simultaneously one of the most brutal and unforgiving TV seasons (or revivals) I've ever seen and in some other way one of the most beautiful. I can't really elaborate why I feel that way - I just feel sort of empty now that it's over. 

[LoveLeigh]

On 9/4/2017 at 0:52 PM, Cheezwiz said:

After sleeping & waking up, I still don't have any further thoughts/theories on "what happened". My only thoughts are irritated ones. So much time spent on characters who seemed like they may have an important part to play and then were suddenly dropped in a perfunctory manner. What happened to Becky? What was the point of Richard Horne? Why the hell did we spend part of an episode on Ashley Judd arguing with her sick husband? Why was Ashley Judd even a character? Who was the beaten up guy in jail? Who was Billy? Why so many mentions of him missing? Why so many randoms yammering at each other in the bar? So many dead ends, dropped threads, and sooooo much highway driving. This took precious time away from characters we cared about. So much mental energy spent on doppelgangers and tulpas and whatnot, and now we're adding fucking time-travelling to the mix?

We did get some satisfying resolutions (Big Ed & Norma, Nadine, Diane being Naido, another DoppelCoop being sent to live with Janey-E and Sonny Jim) but to tease us with bits of Audrey's story and to not follow through seems unnecessarily cruel. I feel like I was about to plant myself in a chair, only to have it yanked out from under me at the last minute.

As someone mentioned previously, "What year is it?" is the new "How's Annie?". Meh. See everyone in 25 years I guess. (***blows raspberry***)

You will never have answers because only David Lynch knows. All these questions validate my above post. Seriously, to me it is like trying to find answers to the meaning of a person's psychotic hallucination. If he thinks providing no clarity makes him a genius and we have to figure it all out and it is whatever it means to us.... the hell with him. I have enough of a hard time figuring out my own dreams and nightmares. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[LoveLeigh]

4 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I can't really elaborate why I feel that way - I just feel sort of empty now that it's over. 

I feel empty when many series end as well. I get all involved with the characters, they get inside me, and then they are gone.

If this helps, I will tell you what I do. I start watching other shows. Give "The Sinner" on USA a try. We are here trying to piece it all together every Wednesday. And I know that by the end of episode 8, we will have answers to our speculations. 

And The Deuce is starting on HBO. It looks amazing. 

Oh, didn't the ABC series "Lost" take the same approach? Thousands of mysteries created and at the end, many clues never answered and dropped. My friend told me this: the writers write and even they have no answers to what they are creating. That's real crappy writing in my opinion. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by DakotaLavender
more text

[JAYJAY1979]

Id be interested to see a season 4..if only see what Twin peaks circa 2014 looks like if Laura Palmer had never been killed.  The Palmers no longer live in the Palmer house....did they move, did Laura and Leland die anyway but in a different way?  There was an old movie remade in the late 80s called turn back the clock where the main character kills her husband then gets a chance to prevent it..but no matter what she does to change history..things keep happening.  So if cooper saved Laura Palmer that night..whose to say if she was truly saved..or if h wr fate was to be killed by Leland..and it happens at a later date?

[paigow]

If Sarah Palmer was already possessed by "Judy", why was she so afraid of BOB in previous seasons? Play-acting? She could easily have killed Leland - like the dude in the bar - at any time.

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

If Sarah Palmer was already possessed by "Judy", why was she so afraid of BOB in previous seasons? Play-acting? She could easily have killed Leland - like the dude in the bar - at any time.

I think she is only partially aware of anything going on with what's inside her, and it's likely something which has slowly built over years. 

[kokapetl]

I wish this show was as coherent as Mulholland Drive. The dream in that mostly made sense. Reverse engineering the dream in this season is damn near impossible. I just don't think there is enough reality to tether the pieces to. 

[paigow]

No wonder this universe makes no sense....The alleged "masters" of evil and good are incompetent. The Black Lodge is unable to recall one of their own rogue creations.

The White Lodge sends Laura Palmer to combat evil armed with....NOTHING! No magic glove, no super brain powers, no obvious link with Maj. Briggs, no effect.

[DesertCyclist]

On 9/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, jamblastx said:

that they will want to do more in the future.

Sorry, but please God no.

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

No wonder this universe makes no sense....The alleged "masters" of evil and good are incompetent. The Black Lodge is unable to recall one of their own rogue creations.

The White Lodge sends Laura Palmer to combat evil armed with....NOTHING! No magic glove, no super brain powers, no obvious link with Maj. Briggs, no effect.

I think they are so drawn into right time and place that they don't use those methods, even if they should. Bob (and Mike before he repented) did whatever they wanted and were cast out. Everyone else seems to be more hesitant.

I still have no idea what role the Arm/MFAP has in the current groupings (I wonder whatever happened to his doppelganger - maybe it's chilling with the Palmer doppels, I don't know).

I think Laura was always fated to die and she was sent to Earth to die, and then her death would bring Cooper to Twin Peaks and likely supposed to lead to keep Bob in check. Then Windom Earle screwed everything up because he was an idiot, and Bob got his chance to truly wreak havoc. Even then the Lodge didn't do anything until it was clear Bob/Cooper weren't keeping their 25-year promise, which led to helping Dougie for months, to the Iron Fist stuff with Freddie, etc. And since Bob had gone so far off the rails he was finally destroyed (presumably). 

Then their next problem was Dale becoming increasingly messianic, which leads to whatever loop he and Laura are in. Maybe that is their way of containing him. Maybe it isn't even the real Laura, and she just constantly cycles out to keep him away from interfering with time.

I saw someone theorize that the Tremonds exist to keep everything under control when something terrible is about to happen - they gave Laura the painting which both helped pave the way for her murder and helped prepare her to stop Bob from taking her over and give her diary to Harold Smith. They helped turn Donna toward Smith, which led to Leland (and Bob's) capture after Maddy's murder. And then the Tremond/Chalfant pops up very specifically to Dale when he thinks he's going to have the final confrontation, like some cosmic "stay in your lane." As always this is also accompanied by something awful (Carrie/Laura screaming as she remembers Laura's suffering and Sarah's suffering and - starting the cycle over for Dale, or maybe sending Dale back to reality or to the Lodge with a firm kick to the backside to remind him of his place...I don't know). 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Pete Martell

[Guest]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

No wonder this universe makes no sense....The alleged "masters" of evil and good are incompetent. The Black Lodge is unable to recall one of their own rogue creations.

The White Lodge sends Laura Palmer to combat evil armed with....NOTHING! No magic glove, no super brain powers, no obvious link with Maj. Briggs, no effect.

 

And the Fireman who seemed to only speak in cohesive sentences (off camera) to Freddy but only vague descriptions to Cooper -- and ending with one that more or less amounted to, "I can't talk about that really important one now. Bye bye." 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Guest

[Pete Martell]

12 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

And the Fireman who seemed to only speak in cohesive sentences (off camera) to Freddy but only vague descriptions to Cooper -- and ending with one that more or less amounted to, "I can't talk about that really important one now. Bye bye." 

He seems to be pretty blunt with people who are being used as tools (like Freddie, or Andy) and then extremely vague with Dale. I don't know if he was telling Dale about Richard and Linda to manipulate him into going down the road of the finale (if he got too far into the idea of how only he could save Laura - maybe the Richard and Linda thing was some trigger to be pulled to stop him, as Diane left and he began struggling more and more through the rest of the episode). Or if that scene actually took place after what we saw in the finale and he was warning Dale to not screw it up this time.

I guess if you're really good at figuring out the White Lodge, like Garland, they keep your floating head as a token of their esteem.

[nikita]

Where was the love?

Whenever I think about Twin Peaks, the soundtrack I listened to endlessly in the '90s plays in my head, especially the Julee Cruise vocals. The songs were about love: dark love seducing, love trying to keep one safe, love leading one astray.

I knew from marathoning Lynch's films prior to TR that being a TP fan did not necessarily make one a Lynch fan (although I'm an oddball who liked most of Dune and almost all of Mulholland Dr). So I was pretty sure TR would be more like Inland Empire than Blue Velvet. But the exploration of love was really missing, to me.

[dwmckim]

9 hours ago, paigow said:

If Sarah Palmer was already possessed by "Judy", why was she so afraid of BOB in previous seasons? Play-acting? She could easily have killed Leland - like the dude in the bar - at any time.

I think it's a combination of there being a period of time when her possession was dormant and also as in the case of Leland/Bob "when he was in charge, I didn't know and when he was gone I didn't remember"

If Sarah is who the bug crawled into in part 8 (or heck even if she wasn't) she might be getting subliminal instructions from her tv the same way the Woodsmen commandeered the radio broadcast...which would also probably explain the classic boxing match on a loop with noticeable electricity sounds.

[Nashville]

To sum up this finale:

Not necessarily the ending I wanted, but definitely the ending I expected.  :)

[Pete Martell]

14 hours ago, nikita said:

Where was the love?

Whenever I think about Twin Peaks, the soundtrack I listened to endlessly in the '90s plays in my head, especially the Julee Cruise vocals. The songs were about love: dark love seducing, love trying to keep one safe, love leading one astray.

I knew from marathoning Lynch's films prior to TR that being a TP fan did not necessarily make one a Lynch fan (although I'm an oddball who liked most of Dune and almost all of Mulholland Dr). So I was pretty sure TR would be more like Inland Empire than Blue Velvet. But the exploration of love was really missing, to me.

For whatever reason I tend to associate Twin Peaks with pining more than full love stories. Looking back, aside from some of the Dougie stuff, the times I was most emotionally invested in the new series were those moments (like Bobby's reaction to seeing Shelly with Red, or the Norma/Ed reunion). It reminded me of things like Pete's quiet and eternal love for Catherine, which she finally grew to appreciate. 

If there ever is another season I do hope we get a more of that. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Pete Martell

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, Pete Martell said:

For whatever reason I tend to associate Twin Peaks with pining more than full love stories. Looking back, aside from some of the Dougie stuff, the times I was most emotionally invested in the new series were those moments (like Bobby's reaction to seeing Shelly with Red, or the Norma/Ed reunion). It reminded me of things like Pete's quiet and eternal love for Catherine, which she finally grew to appreciate. 

If there ever is another season I do hope we get a more of that. 

There was a lot of non romantic love, I think, from Albert and Cole and even Diane to Ben's exasperated love for Jerry. Lucy and Andy. That conversation Frank had with Harry. Catherine Coulson/Log lady. Norma's love for her' family'. A lot of people, actors and characters, who have known each other a long time.

[Affogato]

21 hours ago, paigow said:

No wonder this universe makes no sense....The alleged "masters" of evil and good are incompetent. The Black Lodge is unable to recall one of their own rogue creations.

The White Lodge sends Laura Palmer to combat evil armed with....NOTHING! No magic glove, no super brain powers, no obvious link with Maj. Briggs, no effect.

I'm thinking maybe not the 'masters of the universe'. Maybe they really are just some guys out looking for creamed corn.  They've been in the area forever, whole societies and religions have formed around them, but just guys with an unusual hunger for ... creamed corn. They find someone who is hurting, Leland, say, who is inappropriately attracted to his teenage daughter. They give him a poke or two until he rapes her and lick at the overflowing juices of his self flagellation. Poke a little more. Yum. Don't let him remember all the time to drag out the exquisite ....creamed corn. Meanwhile there is this other thing. Alien? floating around. Leland's behavior has left Sarah trapped in her own cycle of pain and regret. Vulnerable. I'm betting this thing isn't attracted by pain. I'm betting it is attracted by anger. repressed violence. Sarah is angry and is repressing that anger. Delicious!

Edited September 7, 2017 by Affogato
lick is different than 'like'

[Pete Martell]

13 minutes ago, Affogato said:

There was a lot of non romantic love, I think, from Albert and Cole and even Diane to Ben's exasperated love for Jerry. Lucy and Andy. That conversation Frank had with Harry. Catherine Coulson/Log lady. Norma's love for her' family'. A lot of people, actors and characters, who have known each other a long time.

Yes, I did enjoy the Lucy and Andy moments in particular. I forgot those. The others were nice too. I suppose I was thinking of romantic love based on the post I quoted.

[PatternRec]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

I'm thinking maybe not the 'masters of the universe'. Maybe they really are just some guys out looking for creamed corn.

This is correct. The Lodge members are beings that exist on some other dimension or level. They're not gods, they just have weird powers and inscrutable motivations because they're alien to our entire reality. We see woodsmen and giants and other weird distorted figures, sometimes even steampunk teapots.* Some of them like to fuck with humanity, others are trying to stop those that are fucking with humanity. 

* I'm always a little bothered by Lynch's use of people with deformities so often, but I think he may be using that imagery to indicate the "otherness" of Lodge members, which makes me think that Audrey's husband had to have been a Lodge member looking after her like some gatekeeper after her BOB experience. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by PatternRec

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, PatternRec said:

This is correct. The Lodge members are beings that exist on some other dimension or level. They're not gods, they just have weird powers and inscrutable motivations because they're alien to our entire reality. We see woodsmen and giants and other weird distorted figures, sometimes even steampunk teapots.* Some of them like to fuck with humanity, others are trying to stop those that are fucking with humanity. 

* I'm always a little bothered by Lynch's use of people with deformities so often, but I think he may be using that imagery to indicate the "otherness" of Lodge members, which makes me think that Audrey's husband had to have been a Lodge member looking after her like some gatekeeper after her BOB experience. 

Yes, the old timey technology in the room--the phone that no longer works on modern phone lines!--might indicate that, particularly if you factor in Lucy's odd problem that seemed to go away when she fulfilled some white lodge directive.

I was pretty sure we were going to go to the cave and have more encounters with owls. Really, my expectations for the show were not met, but I guess not too surpising.

[insubordination]

I enjoyed the season once I accepted it was not really classic'Twin Peaks', but the last episode was a little dull. I never try to figure anything out. Just trust Lynch and enjoy his scenes. I didn't much care for the musical act at the end for the most part, but Eddie Vedder was appreciated. 

I was constantly amazed and learnt a great deal from the analysis here.   I was also impressed that someone predicted Diane was actually the no-eyed women. I gave up trying to figure it out long ago 'cos it's too much. I just shrug and keep watching. Nothing else on TV like this.  I actually really enjoyed the bleeding, drooling repeating prisoner. Found it all comical.

The green glove thing was a little 'hand of God' from the Stand, but I enjoyed its absurdity/comic-bookness  nevertheless.

I can tolerate ambiguity. I even find it comforting. I can't make sense of chaos.  I'm the kind of person who doesn't need to finish a crossword or a jigsaw puzzle.

There were so many amazing scenes and characters. I feel privileged to have witnessed them all even though I can't figure out how they stitched together.  Something about that Harry Dean Stanton.

Love that Janie E and Dougie got their happy ending. I never much cared for Naomi Watts before this, but she was great and Kyle really was sublime.

While watching the show, I kind of felt like Gordon staring. Sometimes my mouth was open.  This show is a drug.

I also want to echo what someone said about how older actors made the show.  It was also a fitting farewell to the actors who have since died.

Thanks David for the trip. 

[Pete Martell]

5 hours ago, insubordination said:

Love that Janie E and Dougie got their happy ending. I never much cared for Naomi Watts before this, but she was great and Kyle really was sublime.

I had never really watched a lot of Naomi Watts stuff before this but got Mulholland Drive after some of her early episodes as Janey-E and was amazed by her work. As this season went along I was impressed by her work here too. She brought so many layers to the character, and it makes me smile that the character so many fans were happy to write off as a shrew, a harridan, an abomination to women, the nagging wife from hell, etc. was the one who found the most happiness. It's a good reminder that not every female character needs to have karate kicks and badass music montages to be strong or complicated.

[paigow]

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 1:47 PM, Nashville said:

To sum up this finale:

Not necessarily the ending I wanted, but definitely the ending I expected.  :)

Or in Dark Knight terms : "The ending you deserved but not the one you needed" 

[JAYJAY1979]

On 9/7/2017 at 1:24 PM, Pete Martell said:

For whatever reason I tend to associate Twin Peaks with pining more than full love stories. Looking back, aside from some of the Dougie stuff, the times I was most emotionally invested in the new series were those moments (like Bobby's reaction to seeing Shelly with Red, or the Norma/Ed reunion). It reminded me of things like Pete's quiet and eternal love for Catherine, which she finally grew to appreciate. 

If there ever is another season I do hope we get a more of that. 

I wish that Catherine had come back, even for just one scene since the mark frost book said she'd became a recluse after Pete and her brothers death in the explosion...maybe even tied her to Audrey in some way.  Just one or two scenes would have been enough.  

[Affogato]

On 9/5/2017 at 4:49 PM, Nashville said:

 

Still a lot of loose ends left lying around, though - like Audrey and Shelly and Bobby and Becky and Ben and Beverly and Jerry and Norma and Big Ed and Nadine and Dr. Jacoby and Hawk and Andy and Lucy and Wally and Sheriff Truman and Sheriff Truman and Candie and....  :>

I guess Candie is just a ditzy blonde :-)

Edited September 11, 2017 by Affogato
obsessive neatness

[PatternRec]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I guess Candie is just a ditzy blonde :-)

Wrong again. Candie is actually a Japanese woman being hidden from an officer in Tokyo. Once Daigo Jones wakes from his coma and remembers he's Special Agent Dairoku Kabayama she'll change.

[Affogato]

On 9/10/2017 at 5:37 AM, Pete Martell said:

I had never really watched a lot of Naomi Watts stuff before this but got Mulholland Drive after some of her early episodes as Janey-E and was amazed by her work. As this season went along I was impressed by her work here too. She brought so many layers to the character, and it makes me smile that the character so many fans were happy to write off as a shrew, a harridan, an abomination to women, the nagging wife from hell, etc. was the one who found the most happiness. It's a good reminder that not every female character needs to have karate kicks and badass music montages to be strong or complicated.

Everyone one's mileage may differ but I really empathized with King Kong in the 2005 Peter Jackson version, partially because of the scene where he takes Naomi Watt's character and show her the bones of his parents and you realize how long he has been alone and why he is so childlike in his interactions,  but she managed to sell that odd, complex, nonverbal relationship with a CGI character and I thought that was a remarkable performance. After that Dougie was a piece of cake!

On 9/10/2017 at 3:33 PM, paigow said:

Or in Dark Knight terms : "The ending you deserved but not the one you needed" 

Nah, I think we needed this. Something that we can continue to experience as a living work of art.

[Affogato]

I watched episode 18 again last night. I had read somewhere that Coop had switched with Dougie, so I watched that bit carefully but couldn't see any reason to think that had happened. Here's hoping that Dougie now can play catch and drive (or can learn)., I don't see any reason to connect him with the original Dougie doppleganger, but also he was made from a piece of coop after he had just woke up and he might not remember much of being 'our' Cooper and only the Dougie experience. That would be good, I think.

Laura Dern was so good that it hurt to watch her, I paused several times anticipating the pain in her expression when she knew she was losing Cooper, but lose him she did.

Liked the white horse on Carrie's mantlepiece. Tried to recognize the man she had shot, but couldn't place him. Loved her darting back and forth, I'll get my coat, I don't have food, not mentioning the dead man.

If the whole thing is a loop that we could start at any time, and with many interchangeable parts, how odd a trip it would be. The end seemed like a reboot to me. Tomorrow it will seem like something different.

39 minutes ago, PatternRec said:

Wrong again. Candie is actually a Japanese woman being hidden from an officer in Tokyo. Once Daigo Jones wakes from his coma and remembers he's Special Agent Dairoku Kabayama she'll change.

Given her (their) outfits they seem like magician's assistants. Who is the magician?

Edited September 11, 2017 by Affogato

[dwmckim]

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

Given her (their) outfits they seem like magician's assistants. Who is the magician?

I dunno, but the magician longs to see.  

And there are still mysteries about Candie left to explore such as whose fingers did she use for the finger sandwiches?

[JAYJAY1979]

The fact we are talking about this proves Lynch' s mission was accomplished.  If you want ny sort of clear ending to something Lynch has done then earch blue velvet or Wild at Heart.  Since those movies, he's become more into symbolism and open ended endings that leave the viewer confused and trying to make sense of it.  

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

The fact we are talking about this proves Lynch' s mission was accomplished.  If you want ny sort of clear ending to something Lynch has done then earch blue velvet or Wild at Heart.  Since those movies, he's become more into symbolism and open ended endings that leave the viewer confused and trying to make sense of it.  

I prefer to think of it as "open to individual interpretation" - and Lynch definitely hit THAT mark, no question.  :>

[LoveLeigh]

On 9/12/2017 at 2:01 PM, JAYJAY1979 said:

The fact we are talking about this proves Lynch' s mission was accomplished.  If you want ny sort of clear ending to something Lynch has done then earch blue velvet or Wild at Heart.  Since those movies, he's become more into symbolism and open ended endings that leave the viewer confused and trying to make sense of it.  

The hallmark of good writing is some form of clarity. The fact that this is the work of "Lynch" does not change that criteria. The problem with his work is that most of it is impossible to navigate and understand. It is too disconnected and almost random... and most of the interpretations exist only inside his own head like some bizarre fever dream. 

If I wrote a film and it was a bunch of surreal scenes that seemed to have no meaning it would not be considered "great" but because the "Lynch" name is attached to his work he gets a pass and many find his work awe inspiring. His "symbolism" Is almost impossible to explain and spending hours and days and months making sense of it renders the films absurd. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by DakotaLavender
typos

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

The hallmark of good writing is some form of clarity. The fact that this is the work of "Lynch" does not change that criteria. The problem with his work is that most of it is impossible to navigate and understand. It is too disconnected and almost random... and most of the interpretations exist only inside his own head like some bizarre fever dream. 

If I wrote a film and it was a bunch of surreal scenes that seemed to have no meaning it would not be considered "great" but because the "Lynch" name is attached to his work he gets a pass and many find his work awe inspiring. His "symbolism" Is almost impossible to explain and spending hours and days and months making sense of it renders the films absurd. 

I don't find it disconnected and random. I find that most of the time things that may seem random or simply played for an emotional reaction, say Lucy's inability to understand cell phones or what happens to Naido when she flies into space, turn out to connect later and have a larger meaning.  

 

I also think the work is intended to engage the viewer as a continuing work of art. i think I will get something out of a future viewing, which is true of very little tv. This is a valid way to approach art, although you may not like it, of course.  

 

And since Lynch is known for similar work The Return is as advertised. He made his name doing the work. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Affogato

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

The hallmark of good writing is some form of clarity. The fact that this is the work of "Lynch" does not change that criteria.

While that may be a guideline which personally serves you well, I don't think it's chiseled in stone anywhere. :)  This "rule" would disqualify multiple works of abstract and impressionist art in all forms of media, from "Kesey" in print to "Pollack" on canvas. 

Suffice it to say, Lynch's style of cinematography does not cater to your personal tastes - which is perfectly fine.