S07.E05: Eastwatch

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Winterfell was never sacked on the show as far as I remember. The ironborn betrayed Theon and opened the gates to Ramsay and they walked out of there unharmed. The books are a different matter. 

Torched and sacked, in smoke in opening credits.

[FnkyChkn34]

33 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion drinks all the time. Like when don't we see Tyrion drinking would be a better question. 

Perhaps Dany should institute a drinking minimum for Tyrion so he can come up with better plans

He made some comment about being drunk for most of his time after killing Tywin, but said it like it was the past tense.  I was also only talking about this season - I'm sure we've seen all of them eat in past seasons.

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Beric Dondarrion (and therefore Jon Snow) is a fire wight.  Which is somehow different than an ice wight.

http://wikiofthrones.com/9626/george-r-r-martin-reveals-beric-dondarrion-wight-animated-fire/

This is interesting.  Eating and sleeping may not have much to do with anything - we need to see if they bleed.

[crowceilidh]

Quote

Honestly. I'm really struggling to understand how after 6 seasons of this show, the Ethics and Morality of Polite Warfare is suddenly a requirement for its characters.  

The reason I find these discussions useful, and I suspect I'm not alone, is that we are all waiting to see what it is that GRRM means by this Game of Thrones stuff and dissecting how his characters behave during that game becomes more pressing as we get closer to the end.  If he means that all war is stupid and senseless, then it is likely that Dany is heading for tyrant status -- if he means that some people deserve power and others don't, then Dany or maybe Jon is destined to rule.  If it's Jon and NOT Dany, is he destined to rule because of his bloodlines or because temporarily being somewhat powerless and being awarded power without wanting it shows that he's a good guy who deserves to rule.  That being said, I wouldn't mind if the more repetitive arguments wound down.

Also, I think Dany's dead in Jon's arms, regardless of what GRRM means.

Edited August 16, 2017 by crowceilidh

[DarkRaichu]

36 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion drinks all the time. Like when don't we see Tyrion drinking would be a better question. 

 

I could be wrong, but I have not seen Tyrion drinking ever since he became the Hand of the Queen.  

[Tikichick]

Just now, DarkRaichu said:

I could be wrong, but I have not seen Tyrion drinking ever since he became the Hand of the Queen.  

He absolutely was drinking quite steadily last season in, I believe Mereen, while Dany was away.   He was attempting to draw Grey Worm and Missandei into telling jokes at the time.

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

He absolutely was drinking quite steadily last season in, I believe Mereen, while Dany was away.   He was attempting to draw Grey Worm and Missandei into telling jokes at the time.

Ah that's right.  Thanks for the correction

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

You say that, but then you say in your very next sentence: "I said she needs to do a better job of defending Jon." How else can I see that but as saying that Sansa did badly in her performance before the lords, criticizing her for not defending Jon adequately, and thus mismanaging the meeting? 

If you go back to my first comments about this, I actually acknowledge that I don't know for certain whether Sansa IS being too soft on the complaining lords, that it remains to be seen depending on the result. I'm not saying she's absolutely right beyond doubt in her approach. I DO think, however, that Arya's proposal to immediately threaten beheading is pretty clearly the wrong thing to do. If you agree on that, we're largely on the same side.

Yes, Sansa does begin the scene frustrated and resentful about 'something', as you say. I think, however, it's pretty clear why she's frustrated and resentful. I think it's even clear to Arya why, because she says it out loud. Sansa's beset by the same doubts and fears the lords have that Jon won't come back. We know, by having seen this show, and seeing Jon about to go on a really stupid wight hunt, that these doubts and fears are perfectly plausible. Unlike the whiny lords, however, Sansa must conceal her own doubts and fears and express faith in Jon's decision plausibly enough to carry the lords along for another day. As far as we can tell, she's done it; the lords have finished their grumbling and none have abandoned the cause today or taken their grain and gone home. However, she knows that she will have to go through the same argument with more difficulty at the next meeting, and the next, as long as Jon is away, and continue to hide the fear and doubt they ALL are feeling, to serve Jon's cause. Of course she's frustrated. And Arya knows very well - she TELLS us so - that Sansa is afraid that Jon won't come back. Arya knows that Sansa is horrified at the possibility and tries not to think about it because she WANTS Jon to come back - Arya SAYS this. But it doesn't matter to Arya that Sansa quite sincerely wants Jon to return and is horrified and afraid of the possibility he won't. But Sansa dares to think at times that she must be prepared for the possibility that Jon won't come back and she must take over...and even that she might actually be capable of it and good at it, maybe even better than Jon. This, to Arya, is a disgusting betrayal that proves that Sansa's still exactly the same 12 year old who only wants power and pretty things for herself...even though it's part of Sansa's freaking job that Jon gave her, to plan for all eventualities and be good at it. That is the problem; Arya's fury at Sansa is misplaced.

You think that Arya wasn't angry at all after she witnessed what she thought was Sansa allowing the lords to insult Jon without the retaliation she thought they deserved? IMO, the whole "you moved into Father and Mother's room? No, nothing, no reason..." was pretty clearly a passive-aggressive expression of the anger that Arya was already feeling about what happened at the meeting. Sansa picked up that anger and asked about it, bringing it out into the open where it needed to be - and Arya was quite happy to explain her anger when clearly asked. I really don't think Sansa made Arya angry by asking too brusquely what was up with her. She was angry already - the meeting made her angry, and Sansa using sweeter tones would not assuage it. And IMO, since Arya's anger is based on her idea that Sansa is betraying Jon by doing her job in the manner she's doing it, her anger is not going to go away if Sansa ignores it. It needs to be dealt with.

You spoke in definites claiming I said that Sansa mismanaged that entire meeting and that arya knew more to which I said neither. I commented on one of many parts of the meeting and said that arya was correct about one thing. Those are two completely different things and does change the nature of the conversation and points being argued.

i never disagreed do about beheading people being the wrong move. I just said she could have vocally defended Jon better.

All of the frustration and anger comes with the job that Sansa basically asked for. That is her responsibility for a when the ruler is gone and he made a decision that others don't agree with. She got exactly what she asked for and she's resentful that she has to have the hard conversations. Sansa is good with the day to day, but not the hard decisions, you know, he one Jon has to make. Jon he to leave, Jon has to United the remaining houses--hear has to be done due to the supernatural force they must fight. But, Sansa doesn't understand this basic concept and is resentful that he's leaving her handle what she essentially asked for. 

Aryas anger is misplaced, but I don't think some want to understand why and rather assume she's being a bitch just because. 

No, my point was: you misconstrued the scene to fit your narrative of Sansa simply asking a question. Arya was angry, but she wasn't seething. She was cordial and left the matter alone. Arya was playing off of Sansas emotion who DID have an attitude when arya said nothing. Arya was upset that Sansa wanted to take jons spot, but she also recognized that this wasn't something Sansa wanted to actively Entertain. But, I also said that Sansa didn't have to engage her at that moment, which she really doesn't. 

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Where do you see Sansa wanting to assault Arya? 

Sansa has had that emotion only once, and it was towards Joffery on traitors, bridge.The person who shows more traits of assaulting anyone is Arya, Sansa would use poisons, or a catspaw, because those are a woman's /ladies weapon, and Arya nor Brienne are "Ladies ".

If Jon gets married, he's KITN, he can't get Winterfell, unless he fights Sansa,Arya and Bran for it, and his wife would not get it she has no rights to it.

Arya is acting like a bigger dick, she's all revenge, I think Arya would die rather then live, Sansa is trying to keep her father alive, and her self, if she refuses and Cersei or Joffery have a moment and kill her what did that prove, Ned died for nothing, nah a POW's duty is to stay alive and live another day.

Through that whole convosation, Sansa never said anything bitchy, she tried showing Arya the truth of the situation.

I'm sure Sansa doesn't want that letter out, from a Northern perspective it look cowardly, but so did Thoren, and he saved his people, for Sansa it ment her father's life.

I could have easily misunderstood, but I read your comment as YOU saying Sansa should assault arya. 

Yea...this conversation isn't productive. She's revenge all of the time and a bigger dick than someone who tortured people and animals. Arya LITERALLY chose family over revenge. That is factual. Your point is negated.

imo, she was being bitchy. ::shrugs::

why are you bringing up this letter???

[Oscirus]

31 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

33 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I could be wrong, but I have not seen Tyrion drinking ever since he became the Hand of the Queen.  

He absolutely was drinking quite steadily last season in, I believe Mereen, while Dany was away.   He was attempting to draw Grey Worm and Missandei into telling jokes at the time.

He was also drinking this week with Varys.  Varys even drank some of his wine.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Oscirus

[Tikichick]

Just now, Oscirus said:

He was also drinking this week with Varys.  Varys even drank some of hi wine.

True, and he did not appreciate the vintage from his reaction.

[garyvp]

So, since Dany and Jon are unaware of their real genealogical relationship (she is his aunt/he is the heir), and they had a fling and Dany got pregnant, then the child would Jon's first cousin and his child, whilst for Dany it would be her child and grand niece/nephew. The child would also be the heir to throne in either case. 

This could more fun than Cersei and Jamie and their kids/nieces/nephews.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, garyvp said:

So, since Dany and Jon are unaware of their real genealogical relationship (she is his aunt/he is the heir), and they had a fling and Dany got pregnant, then the child would Jon's first cousin and his child, whilst for Dany it would be her child and grand niece/nephew. The child would also be the heir to throne in either case. 

This could more fun than Cersei and Jamie and their kids/nieces/nephews.

Makes you wonder why they bothered getting a composer to produce an entirely new theme song for the series when they could have relied on the old standby, "I'm My Own Grandpa".

[Blonde Gator]

18 minutes ago, garyvp said:

So, since Dany and Jon are unaware of their real genealogical relationship (she is his aunt/he is the heir), and they had a fling and Dany got pregnant, then the child would Jon's first cousin and his child, whilst for Dany it would be her child and grand niece/nephew. The child would also be the heir to throne in either case. 

This could more fun than Cersei and Jamie and their kids/nieces/nephews.

Where's the Queen of Thornes to explain these things when you need her?

Damn Lannisters!!!!!!!!!

[GrailKing]

23 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

why are you bringing up this letter???

Arya read that letter, Lf set her up with it, Arya thinks she betrayed her Father, by being on the dais with Cersei, and smiling as her father was escorted up the steps, that letter she read confirms in her mind eye, that Sansa sided with the enemy, which is false, we know it's false, Arya doesn't, her narration is unreliable and clouded with hate and revenge.

That letter was forced on Sansa with threats of her father's death, her brother's death and her death

for the record:

Sansa: "what will happen to him?"

Cersei: "That depends."

Sansa: "On.. on what?"

Cersei: "On your brother, and on you."

[Blonde Gator]

17 minutes ago, doram said:

Saying Dany and Jon are aunt/nephew over-simplifies their relationship. Dany's parents - Jon's paternal grand-parents - were brother & sister. So that means Dany is her own first cousin and Jon is her second cousin, once removed (from Rhaegar, who is Dany's brother and first cousin) as well as her nephew. Dany's grandparents were also brother and sister; her great-grandfather (Aegon V, Aemon Targaryen's brother) was the grandson of married siblings; and on and on going back to Aegon I and his sister-wives.

Then also remember that when they did marry "outsiders", as those were also aristocracy, they tended to be related. e.g. Elia Martell was a descendant of the first Princess Daenerys Targaryen, sister to King Daeron. It was a brother-sister swap so King Daeron also married another Martell... and from their line comes our own Daenerys, Rhaegar and his son, Jon.

So... do the maths.

The Targs were, somewhat literally, not fucking around with dragon-blood purity. 

Quote

I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

~ Ser Barristan Selmy, to Dany

The madness apparently coincides with magical/dragon abilities, as well as something the northerner's call Greensight (or as the Valyrians call these views of the future, Dragon Dreams).  I truly hope we will one day have all of this fleshed out in show, but I doubt it.  And at this point, with GRRM's lackadaisical approach to ever finishing the series, I'm not inclined to purchase any of his supplemental writings on the World of Ice and Fire.

[Hecate7]

14 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa most definitely sees Arya has changed, she's more vindictive, she's a harden fighter, she knows she has a list, she's still driven by hatred, and she knows Bran has also changed, he's colder, more aloof, acts more like a zombie then Bran.

Despite what they went through Jon and Sansa are the two closer to normal, of course if they should survive and calm takes over then the flood of emotions will come forth with a vengeance.

Only part Sansa was upset about was Arya throwing in her face, that she took mom and dads room from Jon, because pretty things make her happy.

I think if Arya knew her sister was raped in those rooms she want to cut her own tongue out.

I don't think she'd think too much about it one way or the other. Just one more thing Sansa did wrong--get herself raped.

[Constantinople]

Upon reflection, Joe Dempsie's name in the opening credits was a bit of a tip off that Gendry would return in this episode.

I only noticed on rewatch since I often pay little attention during the credits now.

[YaddaYadda]

30 minutes ago, doram said:

Saying Dany and Jon are aunt/nephew over-simplifies their relationship. Dany's parents - Jon's paternal grand-parents - were brother & sister. So that means Dany is her own first cousin and Jon is her second cousin, once removed (from Rhaegar, who is Dany's brother and first cousin) as well as her nephew. Dany's grandparents were also brother and sister; her great-grandfather (Aegon V, Aemon Targaryen's brother) was the grandson of married siblings; and on and on going back to Aegon I and his sister-wives.

Then also remember that when they did marry "outsiders", as those were also aristocracy, they tended to be related. e.g. Elia Martell was a descendant of the first Princess Daenerys Targaryen, sister to King Daeron. It was a brother-sister swap so King Daeron also married another Martell... and from their line comes our own Daenerys, Rhaegar and his son, Jon.

So... do the maths.

The Targs were, somewhat literally, not fucking around with dragon-blood purity. 

I think the longest the Targs went without marrying each other was 3 generations. But that still didn't shelter them from anything, really. Maester Aemon's brother, one was insane and drank wildfire to turn himself into a dragon, the other one was a drunk because he was plagued with prophetic dragon dreams and Egg tried to hatch dragon eggs with wildfire and we know what came of that.

So while they weren't fucking around with the dragon-blood purity, it seems like even when it's been diluted, shit still hits the fan. I've long wondered if the Velaryons also did what the Targs did. Because they still keep those Valyrian traits.

(maybe we're saying the same thing? In which case, you know, I'm just rambling)

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Upon reflection, Joe Dempsie's name in the opening credits was a bit of a tip off that Gendry would return in this episode.

I only noticed on rewatch since I often pay little attention during the credits now.

He also attended the premiere in LA (I think it was LA), so that was a tip off that he'd be in this season.  Considering we only have 2 more episodes, it was about time. :-) 

[Nanrad]

44 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Arya read that letter, Lf set her up with it, Arya thinks she betrayed her Father, by being on the dais with Cersei, and smiling as her father was escorted up the steps, that letter she read confirms in her mind eye, that Sansa sided with the enemy, which is false, we know it's false, Arya doesn't, her narration is unreliable and clouded with hate and revenge.

That letter was forced on Sansa with threats of her father's death, her brother's death and her death

for the record:

Sansa: "what will happen to him?"

Cersei: "That depends."

Sansa: "On.. on what?"

Cersei: "On your brother, and on you."

I literally mentioned nothing about the letter except, "we'll see what happens." And the letter thing occurred after the bedroom scene. Even then, LF was acting suspicious to catch her attention, despite this, she didn't respond in violence or accusation, but rather, observance and investigation. 

22 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I don't think she'd think too much about it one way or the other. Just one more thing Sansa did wrong--get herself raped.

Despite theithe acrimonious relationship, I doubt arya would blame Sansa for her own rape and would even try to avenge her. 

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

She's not being called a bitch for calling her sister out, she's being called a bitch, because of her brute style and not seeing the effort Sansa has put forth or the right of the political landscape, nor is she allowing Sansa to tell her story, she's assuming things that she has no knowledge of, except some type of warrior code I guess Sansa should follow.

People who are direct are always misjudged or criticized.  Women are generally called bitches simply for calling a spade, a spade if you will.  Arya doesn't sugarcoat what she has to say to make someone else feel better.  She may be lacking tact, but hey!  I respect straight talkers.

Sansa's story is hers to tell.  No one has to allow her to tell it.  It seems more like is Sansa willing to share it?  It's not up to Arya to drag Sansa's truths from her.  If Sansa would rather be misjudged rather than shed some light on what's really going on, that's on her.

[Constantinople]

At the end of the episode we see Beric, Thoros and the Hound locked-up in the Eastwatch cells

1. What happened to the rest of the Brotherhood without Banners?

2. What happened to the Night's Watch garrison at Eastwatch?

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

That's a good point, because Arya knows how to fight and protect herself I don't think she understands Sansa's desperate need for protection and a sense of safety that is provided by having power. I don't think Sansa cares as much about the "finer things" anymore. What she cares about is not being used anymore. She would happily let Jon rule Winterfell if she can be assured he won't marry her off to someone horrible. But she has been so terribly betrayed that I think it's hard for her to trust even Jon. I think she's getting there, but it's gonna take time.

Arya doesn't need political power because she has Needle. She can defend herself without an army at her beck and call.

Hmm. So was it Sansa's need to protect herself when she told Arya she had to call her Lady of Winterfell?  That probably rubbed Arya the wrong way right off the bat; I sure thought it was high-handed.  Who does that?  They are sisters.  Why should Arya run around calling her Lady?  I can see Arya referring to Sansa by her title in certain situations, but not in private.  They are nobles, not royalty. That right there is an example of why I can't entertain the idea that Sansa is Team Stark.  I can't shake the feeling that she, like LF, is strictly Team Sansa.  And if that's what it takes for her to feel safe and protected, she's the most damaged Stark of them all, IMO. The idea that power is the ultimate protection is an illusion. 

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Thing is we havent seen him eat or sleep, and GRRM words are in the air.

I assume you're speaking tongue-in-cheek because there are tons of characters we haven't seen do either.  As for GRRM, clearly he's trying to create his own definition for zombie, to which I say stuff it.  I like to think for myself.

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Hmm. So was it Sansa's need to protect herself when she told Arya she had to call her Lady of Winterfell?

That was a joke. 

[Hecate7]

36 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

I literally mentioned nothing about the letter except, "we'll see what happens." And the letter thing occurred after the bedroom scene. Even then, LF was acting suspicious to catch her attention, despite this, she didn't respond in violence or accusation, but rather, observance and investigation. 

Despite theithe acrimonious relationship, I doubt arya would blame Sansa for her own rape and would even try to avenge her. 

Sansa already avenged herself. I suppose people who want to hate on her for being ladylike and non-fightery want to call her a murderer for it, but I was rather pleased that she did it. She avenged Rickon, too.

I doubt Arya would waste a blink of sympathy on Sansa--Sansa's just mini-Cersei to Arya. She's not on the list, but that's only because she's family. Imagine a younger brother saying to an elder brother the things Arya's been saying to Sansa. In fact, Sansa's birthright entitles her to rule Winterfell. She gracefully stepped aside for Jon, and Arya gives her absolutely no credit for that. She gives her no credit for offering to step down for Bran, either. Everything is Sansa's fault because Sansa wears dresses.

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Beric Dondarrion (and therefore Jon Snow) is a fire wight.  Which is somehow different than an ice wight.

http://wikiofthrones.com/9626/george-r-r-martin-reveals-beric-dondarrion-wight-animated-fire/

Disagree with your conclusion.  According to the article Beric's memories are fading, his heart doesn't beat and he's becoming less human.  None of these traits have manifested themselves in Jon, therefore, the best category for Jon appears to be resurrected.

[Hecate7]

17 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Hmm. So was it Sansa's need to protect herself when she told Arya she had to call her Lady of Winterfell?  That probably rubbed Arya the wrong way right off the bat; I sure thought it was high-handed.  Who does that?  They are sisters.  Why should Arya run around calling her Lady?  I can see Arya referring to Sansa by her title in certain situations, but not in private.  They are nobles, not royalty. That right there is an example of why I can't entertain the idea that Sansa is Team Stark.  I can't shake the feeling that she, like LF, is strictly Team Sansa.  And if that's what it takes for her to feel safe and protected, she's the most damaged Stark of them all, IMO. The idea that power is the ultimate protection is an illusion. 

I thought Sansa sounded like she was joking when she said yes. But I'm pretty sure Arya wouldn't have had a problem with calling Robb Lord Stark, nor would she have snarked about it. She's acting as if Sansa is somehow usurping Ned, and maybe that's because she's never had the chance to really grieve or to confront the fact that Sansa is head of the family. And before she'd even gotten the chance to process that, Bran showed up and declined when Sansa offered to step aside for him. So Sansa is STILL head of the family, even if Jon Snow is King in the North. She is Lady Stark. Jon Snow is not a Stark. Arya having a problem with this is purely Arya's own issues with Sansa. She's going to have to realize that this IS her family now. But her own first impulse is to start spying on Sansa and gathering reasons to kill her. Not promising.

I think Arya unconsciously blames Sansa for the deaths of Ned, Kat, Robb, and Rickon. Sansa doesn't need Jon to die, in order to be Lady of Winterfell. She already is Lady Stark.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Hecate7

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Aryas anger is misplaced, but I don't think some want to understand why and rather assume she's being a bitch just because. 

No, my point was: you misconstrued the scene to fit your narrative of Sansa simply asking a question. Arya was angry, but she wasn't seething. She was cordial and left the matter alone. Arya was playing off of Sansas emotion who DID have an attitude when arya said nothing. Arya was upset that Sansa wanted to take jons spot, but she also recognized that this wasn't something Sansa wanted to actively Entertain. But, I also said that Sansa didn't have to engage her at that moment, which she really doesn't. 

Arya is, it's true, not visibly infuriated...she's not raising her voice, she's cool and calm. That doesn't mean that she's not very angry - this is what I meant by seething. She tells Sansa in so many words that she thinks that Sansa is deliberately letting the lords insult Jon and get away with it because she wants to suck up to them to take Jon's power for herself. She thinks Sansa is betraying her beloved Jon - the one that she still loves most in all the world. Do you think she can think that and just be a little miffed about it? She's furious, and we can't judge her current calm as a gauge of her not being angry. As someone else said, she was just as calm and smiling when she confronted Frey before cutting his throat.

IMO, she showed that anger by the passive-aggressive jab about moving into their parents' bedroom. Sansa correctly perceived the anger behind that jab and brought it out into the open. You say Sansa "didn't have to engage her at that moment, which she really doesn't." But why should Sansa avoid finding out why Arya's annoyed at her? She has no idea what she's done to irritate her. And as you say, Arya doesn't seem particularly agitated or severely upset. Why should Sansa walk on eggshells around her sister who has seemed quite affectionate toward her till now?

Well, she found out why walking on eggshells might be a good idea for her to do around Arya. And IMO, I don't think Sansa's somehow to blame for finding that out. It's vital that she knows this. IIRC, you say it's understandable that Sansa, while having a perfectly sincere desire to hand the North back to Jon's leadership when he returns and doesn't want him to die, might have the idea she could be as good or better a ruler than Jon and even occasionally have flashes of really liking the idea, even if she puts it aside in horror and tries not to think about it. Arya, though? Arya doesn't think it's understandable. Arya thinks it means Sansa is at bottom still the same girl who wants the best for herself over everyone else, who thinks 'she's better than everyone else', and is therefore liable to betray Jon to take the power for herself. Arya thinks Sansa is an active threat to Jon, and both girls know who Arya loves best.

If Sansa took your advice and just ignored Arya's passive-aggressive jab, and Arya didn't do more to bring her anger to Sansa's attention? What would happen is that Arya would continue to suspect Sansa of treachery toward Jon, take every polite response of Sansa to a complaining lord as further evidence of this, and get further played by LF putting more 'evidence' in Arya's way, all without Sansa having the slightest idea of the terrible suspicions Arya is harboring toward her. LF's clearly been playing Arya for awhile - he asked for that message awhile ago, he knows Arya's been suspecting him and following him around (he even managed to sneak up unperceived on Arya the expert sneaker), he is clearly aware of just what sort of suspicions Arya harbors toward her sister and is expertly fostering them (Arya's poker face isn't as good as she thinks it is.) The sisters desperately need to communicate with each other about what's going on and get a good handle on it, and I'm not going to fault Sansa for realizing there's a problem and opening communications.

Edited August 16, 2017 by screamin

[Pogojoco]

15 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I blame GRRM for this.  Even to non book readers, the earlier seasons felt like books condensed to 10 hour movie.  The later seasons felt like outlines being expanded to fill 10 hours show.  The characters just went from point A to B fulfilling their tasks as part of a big D&D game (pun intended)., some even acquired warp speed ability in the process. :P  

Gone is the concept of consequences of seemingly small actions, everything is explained straight forward from point A to B to C

Oh, GRRM is to blame for some. But I blame the showrunners and writers for this, too. I mean, they made certain decisions to cut richness in favour of expediency, "buzzy" moments and fan service. 

Maybe both have the same issue- it's hard to top the execution of Ned Stark and the Red Wedding for pure WTF and shock. It seems to have scattered GRRM, making him unfocused and made the showrunners try to top themselves so there are videos of fan reactions on Youtube. 

Like I said, I don't hate the show. It's just frustrating to watch something and want it to be better. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Pogojoco

[TaurusRose]

13 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I thought Sansa sounded like she was joking when she said yes. But I'm pretty sure Arya wouldn't have had a problem with calling Robb Lord Stark, 

Okay.  We came away with different impressions; I don't think she was joking.

I'm pretty sure Robb wouldn't have asked her to call him King Robb or Lord Stark. Ditto for Jon.  As I said, it's one thing to use titles when the setting or conversation is official, and an entirely different matter when kicked back as siblings shooting the shit.

[GrailKing]

46 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

People who are direct are always misjudged or criticized.  Women are generally called bitches simply for calling a spade, a spade if you will.  Arya doesn't sugarcoat what she has to say to make someone else feel better.  She may be lacking tact, but hey!  I respect straight talkers.

Sansa's story is hers to tell.  No one has to allow her to tell it.  It seems more like is Sansa willing to share it?  It's not up to Arya to drag Sansa's truths from her.  If Sansa would rather be misjudged rather than shed some light on what's really going on, that's on her.

Most victims DON't tell their stories,

The misjudgment here.

Arya is making accusations on a six year old memory and a six year old letter she now has, (by a scum bag who wants to sink house Stark) with wrong facts, something Sansa can't substantiate; because there is no written record to support hers, the only one who could is sitting in a wheel chair.

35 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I assume you're speaking tongue-in-cheek because there are tons of characters we haven't seen do either.  As for GRRM, clearly he's trying to create his own definition for zombie, to which I say stuff it.  I like to think for myself.

No, I forgot Castle Black.

[FnkyChkn34]

56 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

At the end of the episode we see Beric, Thoros and the Hound locked-up in the Eastwatch cells

1. What happened to the rest of the Brotherhood without Banners?

2. What happened to the Night's Watch garrison at Eastwatch?

1.  Good question.  But weren't their ranks already dwindling as it was?  I can't recall how many we saw earlier this season at the farmhouse where the Hound buried the skeletons, but I don't recall that there were many left.

2.  I think Jon mentions this in the beginning, probably the first episode.  I think he says that it's still manned, but needs reinforcements?  It's very undermanned.  So that's why he sends Tormund and the wildlings.

[AshleyN]

58 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

At the end of the episode we see Beric, Thoros and the Hound locked-up in the Eastwatch cells

1. What happened to the rest of the Brotherhood without Banners?

2. What happened to the Night's Watch garrison at Eastwatch?

I dunno, but shout out to Tormund for apparently being the only person in Westeros who knows how to use scouts.

[Hecate7]

13 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Okay.  We came away with different impressions; I don't think she was joking.

I'm pretty sure Robb wouldn't have asked her to call him King Robb or Lord Stark. Ditto for Jon.  As I said, it's one thing to use titles when the setting or conversation is official, and an entirely different matter when kicked back as siblings shooting the shit.

Robb wouldn't have had to ask. She'd have just done it, and she wouldn't needle him about it either. And if she had, he'd have done exactly what Sansa did: say "yes," with just enough of a smile to show it was probably a joke, but not enough of a smile to resolve all the tension, because that's the North's sense of humor right there. Ned had it, too. So does Arya, actually.

In public, not a joke, yes Arya does have to call her Lady Stark. Duh. In private, no of course not but who didn't already know that? Arya is weirdly angry with Sansa. Since they're both very important to the story, I'm hoping Arya does NOT kill Sansa. Baelisch seems like he's trying to manipulate her into doing just that. I'm vaguely worried about it.

But honestly I am more worried about how Jaime is going to punish Bronn. Hopefully Bronn has already fled as fast and as far as he can, to Tyrion's side, because I can't think of a punishment that would satisfy Cersei that won't also tank Bronn's usefulness to Jaime.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Hecate7

[Nanrad]

43 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Sansa already avenged herself. I suppose people who want to hate on her for being ladylike and non-fightery want to call her a murderer for it, but I was rather pleased that she did it. She avenged Rickon, too.

I doubt Arya would waste a blink of sympathy on Sansa--Sansa's just mini-Cersei to Arya. She's not on the list, but that's only because she's family. Imagine a younger brother saying to an elder brother the things Arya's been saying to Sansa. In fact, Sansa's birthright entitles her to rule Winterfell. She gracefully stepped aside for Jon, and Arya gives her absolutely no credit for that. She gives her no credit for offering to step down for Bran, either. Everything is Sansa's fault because Sansa wears dresses.

I'm saying that that is how arya would react if she found out that information. She'd want to avenge her family. I'm sorry, but that whole ladylike for why people don't like her is tired. People loved margaery, many liked cat, lady olenna, etc who are largely feminine characters, but they don't like Sansa because she is feminine??? Pray tell, what other feminine characters are hated. Hell, the fact that people were happy the sand snakes were killed and hated Robb's wife, masculine roles and traits, also contradicts your point.

[GrailKing]

59 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Hmm. So was it Sansa's need to protect herself when she told Arya she had to call her Lady of Winterfell?

You do know she was joking right?  She did a smile as she completed it and ran to Arya who gave a dead response.

ETA: also one of the earlier scripts had is as "of course not" for the reply, so maybe they tried to add a bit of sisterly humor.

Edited August 16, 2017 by GrailKing

[Hecate7]

4 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

I'm saying that that is how arya would react if she found out that information. She'd want to avenge her family. I'm sorry, but that whole ladylike for why people don't like her is tired. People loved margaery, many liked cat, lady olenna, etc who are largely feminine characters, but they don't like Sansa because she is feminine??? Pray tell, what other feminine characters are hated. Hell, the fact that people were happy the sand snakes were killed and hated Robb's wife, masculine roles and traits, also contradicts your point.

ARYA hates Sansa because she is feminine. I'm not talking about the audience.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

IIRC Theon burned it as they fled the incoming attack from the Boltons.   

In the books it was Ramsay and his men who burned it. As far as I remember, this happened on the show too, with Theon's people getting killed just as they were in the book version.

It's also remarkable considering that the Boltons later took the castle for themselves (and thus had to repair the damage they did), but Robb had died in the meantime which enabled them to take Winterfell openly.

 

 

 

As for the zombie discussion: GRRM talks about wights, not zombies. Wights can have their own will (Coldhands in the books and Benjen on the show are examples, as is Dondarrion in the books and by implication in the show, and I suppose very, very old Melisandre may be one as well - the books explicitly say she doesn't need food), but their body isn't working anymore and is animated by some magical force instead. Hence they are similar in this respects to the "ice wights", the bodies animated by the White Walkers in the north. Though those all seem to lack free will of any kind.

[TaurusRose]

11 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Robb wouldn't have had to ask. She'd have just done it, and she wouldn't needle him about it either. And if she had, he'd have done exactly what Sansa did: say "yes," with just enough of a smile to show it was probably a joke, but not enough of a smile to resolve all the tension, because that's the North's sense of humor right there. Ned had it, too. So does Arya, actually.

In public, not a joke, yes Arya does have to call her Lady Stark. Duh. In private, no of course not but who didn't already know that? Arya is weirdly angry with Sansa. Since they're both very important to the story, I'm hoping Arya does NOT kill Sansa. Baelisch seems like he's trying to manipulate her into doing just that. I'm vaguely worried about it.

But honestly I am more worried about how Jaime is going to punish Bronn. Hopefully Bronn has already fled as fast and as far as he can, to Tyrion's side, because I can't think of a punishment that would satisfy Cersei that won't also tank Bronn's usefulness to Jaime.

I guess Arya doesn't.  As she addressed Sansa as "lady" before leaving her presence this last episode.  Of course, she could have been using sarcasm.  Who knows?  As for how or what Robb would have done, we're both spinning our wheels because neither of us know how he would have handled it. And please don't "duh" me.  It implies stupidity which I can assure you I'm not. 

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

You do know she was joking right?  She did a smile as she completed it and ran to Arya who gave a dead response.

No, I don't know she was joking.  My interpretation of the scene does not need to track with yours.

[Hecate7]

9 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I guess Arya doesn't.  As she addressed Sansa as "lady" before leaving her presence this last episode.  Of course, she could have been using sarcasm.  Who knows?  As for how or what Robb would have done, we're both spinning our wheels because neither of us know how he would have handled it. And please don't "duh" me.  It implies stupidity which I can assure you I'm not. 

No, I don't know she was joking.  My interpretation of the scene does not need to track with yours.

Not duhing you, duhing Arya here, who of course knows perfectly well that yes, Lady Stark is the proper form of address here, and yes she does have to use it in public but not in private with her sister.

[Michikhaleesi]

12 minutes ago, Wouter said:

As for the zombie discussion: GRRM talks about wights, not zombies. Wights can have their own will (Coldhands in the books and Benjen on the show as examples...

Speaking of Benjen, could he possibly join in with "The Magnificent Seven" and turn out to be the wight they bring down south?  I feel like Bran having crossed back from the Wall and he spotted warg-spying over the Night King changed the rules for wights crossing over.

[TaurusRose]

Just now, Hecate7 said:

Not duhing you, duhing Arya here, who of course knows perfectly well that yes, Lady Stark is the proper form of address here, and yes she does have to use it in public but not in private with her sister.

Sorry for being touchy.

[Chairman Meow]

I love that Cersei wants Jaime to punish Bronn for the 'betrayal' of setting up a meeting without his consent...right after saving Jaime from dragonfire (and drowning) and also being the only person in Westeros to have scored a hit on a dragon.   Ugh, Cersei and her smug face makes me ragey.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Chairman Meow
because autocorrect thinks dragonflies are just as deadly as dragonfire

[Wouter]

Just now, Michikhaleesi said:

Speaking of Benjen, could he possibly join in with "The Magnificent Seven" and turn out to be the wight they bring down south?  I feel like Bran having crossed back from the Wall and he spotted warg-spying over the Night King changed the rules for wights crossing over.

He could join in, but he wouldn't really count as a wight (allthough he's technically one, he's very different from the ones controlled by the Walkers) and he cannot pass the Wall.

Trying to hunt a wight of the NK's army seems pointless, as the Wights can play dead and presumably would do so if they were brought south to demonstrate there is a threat. I guess the show will now retcon it so that an animated Wight cannot be de-animated at will, even though the two that tried to kill lord commander Mormont in S1 pretended to be ordinary dead bodies in order to be brought into Castle Black. Since they passed the Wall and its protective magic, it's likely the Walkers "deactivated" them for a while, until they were on the other side and the target was near.

[GrailKing]

35 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I'm hoping Arya does NOT kill Sansa. Baelisch seems like he's trying to manipulate her into doing just that. I'm vaguely worried about it.

Yeah, that scene in the GW,seemed more ominous then it should have if LF was to be the victim.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Disagree with your conclusion.  According to the article Beric's memories are fading, his heart doesn't beat and he's becoming less human.  None of these traits have manifested themselves in Jon, therefore, the best category for Jon appears to be resurrected.

Sorry......it's not "my conclusion". 

Those are the very words of George R. R. Martin.   The Lord of Light creates "fire wights".   The Lord of Light resurrected Jon Snow. 

That is all we are certain of at this point.  Per a canon source.....the author of the story.

[screamin]

Does Beric Dondarrion eat?

[GrailKing]

19 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Of course, she could have been using sarcasm.  

Take in the scene, it was.

[MrWhyt]

5 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sorry......it's not "my conclusion". 

Those are the very words of George R. R. Martin.   The Lord of Light creates "fire wights".   The Lord of Light resurrected Jon Snow. 

That is all we are certain of at this point.  Per a canon source.....the author of the story.

did he? or is that just what we assume?