A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[ParadoxLost]

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's still an arc, even if nobody liked it. Golden Queen and Wish!Robin may have been horrible, but they were part of the arc for Regina and Clone Queen. Emma's only arc was death prophecy and shaky hands. She had nothing else going on. Snow and Charming took turns sleeping. I don't think Hook had an arc until 6B. If he did, I can't remember it. Rumple may have had the most significant arc in S6, even if his screen-time was less. But of the others, Lana had the most screen-time. You can't really separate Regina and Clone Queen's arcs, as they overlapped. 

This is a good summation of the show for me.  Because it reminds me that I know characters have screen time but they generally don't seem to have any stories.  In my mind, for the last few seasons there has been a theme for the season/half season and then other than the book end premiere finales it feels like nothing much actually happens.

[Camera One]

I rewatched part of "Red Handed" and the actress who played Granny was quite good.  It's clear Granny went through a lot in her life. It was practically a crime that they kept her on the show for so long and never gave her another centric or even a full subplot again.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I rewatched part of "Red Handed" and the actress who played Granny was quite good.  It's clear Granny went through a lot in her life. It was practically a crime that they kept her on the show for so long and never gave her another centric or even a full subplot again.

It really is. At the time I couldn't wait to get to Granny's back story. I never would have thought we never would have gotten it.

[CCTC]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

 It was practically a crime that they kept her on the show for so long and never gave her another centric or even a full subplot again.

I would have rather her and Red be elevated to regulars rather than Belle.  I think they had a lot of potential and there were more directions they could have gone with  (although I suppose they could have done more with Belle than just had her be about Rumple).   Granny was an interesting character and with Red it would have been nice to have a character that did not have to be tied down to a specific relationship, plus I liked the character and the actress.

[Camera One]

I don't know if it was general disinterest in worldbuilding, or disinterest in writing for an elderly female, or what.  I mean, several shows I've enjoyed have had a strong elderly female character.  Granny could have become mayor.  She could have found love with Gepetto.  There was a lot they could have done.  Heck, they couldn't even give her an episode (or a scene!) with Red for "Ruby Slippers" or leading up to it so it actually felt more organic?  

Speaking of Gepetto, an episode with him and Adult August would have been more satisfying that multiple episodes with August spewing sage advice.  

Ditto for the Blue Fairy.  They could have used a wise "good" force.  She could have had an edge (she kind of already did), like Giles on "Buffy" or Gandalf or Dumbledore.  A strict sense of morality would have created conflict with so many ex-villains running around.

Belle could have been an interesting character if she wasn't just relegated a love interest.  She could have actually re-built the relationship with her father, or the Library could have played a much bigger role (instead of randomly running in with relevant info).  As someone yearning for adventure, she would have been more appropriate as the new Author.  She could visit once in a while with new relevant info for the leaders.  The Rumbelle love story could have developed in the final season after Rumple actually commits to earning her love and giving up power.

But at the end of the day, the Writers weren't even interested in giving Snow or Charming any sustained quality "human" storyline or character arc after Season 2.5, so what can we expect for the underlings.  It's just such a waste of talent.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Mitch]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

don't know if it was general disinterest in worldbuilding, or disinterest in writing for an elderly female, or what.  I mean, several shows I've enjoyed have had a strong elderly female character.  Granny could have become mayor.  She could have found love with Gepetto.  There was a lot they could have done.  Heck, they couldn't even give her an episode (or a scene!) with Red for "Ruby Slippers" or leading up to it so it actually felt more organic?  

I don't even think she needs a "centric,"  (I wish they would get rid of the centrics...lazy writing...) or a sub plot..she should have always been the tough old no nonsense woman to gie everyone a kick in the ass. I would have loved her to become Regina's and Zelena's "sponsor" especially with all the Mommy issues they have..she and Zelena would have been hilarious together.."I swear..if that old bird yells at me one more time I shall turn her into a real prune!"  Ganny..."Zelena, get over and clean up this mess" Zelena..."Yes Ma'am!"

 

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

itto for the Blue Fairy.  They could have used a wise "good" force.  She could have had an edge (she kind of already did), like Giles on "Buffy" or Gandalf or Dumbledore.  A strict sense of morality would have created conflict with so many ex-villains running around.

Now this broad was long overdue for  a Centric...and it should have been both her and Rump a Dump to put an end to Fiona...(that stupid wand was too easy...) especially since she was the one to whip up the Restore Memory Potion she should have taken it and both she and Rump could have played the BF.

[tennisgurl]

You know whats weird? I've been watching the start of season 2, and...I remember that I actually used to be pretty behind Regina's redemption arc. Granted, I thought she had a LOT more to do to be truly redeemed, but it had some really good momentum. Regina actually showed some remorse for what she had done, she had to face the consequences of her actions, and not everyone worshiped her just because she stopped killing people for five minutes. People all pretty much hated her, and she and Charming were only civil because of Henry. Speaking of, I also thought her relationship with Henry was pretty interesting. Henry still knew she was the Evil Queen and resented her, but he also loved her as the woman who raised him, and while she did love Henry, it was shown that her love was abusive and toxic, and even she fessed up to that fact. The episode where we see how she is repeating the abusive behavior of her mom towards Henry, only for her to allow Henry the chance to leave her house and stay with Charming, was a real step in the right direction for her character. It was just a start, but it was actually pretty promising at the beginning. 

Of course, it all fell apart later that season when Cora showed up and she immediately sided with her, almost blew up the town, and from then on, it was all Wogena all the time. No more consequences, no more of the characters having conflicting feelings towards her, no more real introspection on her behalf. Its just "well, Regina's a good guy now, no one question it! Her life is SO HARD y'all!" every second of the day. And even stranger, they just kept adding more and more atrocities to her resume in their attempt to make us feel worse for her! Really, I feel worse now about her half asses redemption arc, now that I remember that we actually had a promising start. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Rumsy4]

42 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

they just kept adding more and more atrocities to her resume in their attempt to make us feel worse for her

Convoluted reasoning, for sure. But that seems a common theme. Writers seem to pride themselves in getting audiences to root for villanous characters, and they succeed to varying degrees (from Dexter to Walter White to the Malificent live action movie). But in all these cases, the villain is the main character, and from whose PoV the story is told. The same is with Regina. She is the only character the writers have explored thoroughly. Her PoV is presented as the most sympathetic one, even as she goes about murdering innocents. And it seems to work with a certain audience. 

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Convoluted reasoning, for sure. But that seems a common theme. Writers seem to pride themselves in getting audiences to root for villanous characters, and they succeed to varying degrees (from Dexter to Walter White to the Malificent live action movie). But in all these cases, the villain is the main character, and from whose PoV the story is told. The same is with Regina. She is the only character the writers have explored thoroughly. Her PoV is presented as the most sympathetic one, even as she goes about murdering innocents. And it seems to work with a certain audience. 

"The Evil Queen" (2-20) is a prime example, an episode framed around how difficult it is for a mass murderer to be deprived of a second chance.  It was a truly astounding piece of writing.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

43 minutes ago, Camera One said:

"The Evil Queen" (2-20) is a prime example, an episode framed around how difficult it is for a mass murderer to be deprived of a second chance.  It was a truly astounding piece of writing.

Ah, yes, the episode in which, although Regina was responsible for a pile of bodies after she ordered a village to be slaughtered, Snow was revealed to be the real villain, since she couldn't forgive Regina after she saw the pile of bodies, and her inability to forgive mass murder deprived Regina of a second chance and meant Snow was responsible for Regina not being redeemed then and there. Of course, Snow later got over the pile of bodies entirely. At least at that point in the narrative, Snow was still allowed to be horrified by the pile of bodies. Later, it didn't seem to bother her at all, and she let Regina remain in charge of the kingdom/town in spite of her history of murdering its citizens on a whim.

[Rumsy4]

It's Snow's fawning over Regina that truly destroyed her as a character.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's Snow's fawning over Regina that truly destroyed her as a character.

Same reason for the destruction of Henry too.  

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Same reason for the destruction of Henry too.  

I agree. He and Snow basically turned into Regina's parents.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The Show has turned completely bleak over the last couple of seasons. There's very little spark of hope or humor, coupled with a complete lack of payoff for the depressive storylines.  

4B was, in my opinion, the arc that really killed the show's sense of joy, and it all came down to Emma. In 4A, she accepted her role as the Savior, learned to love herself, yadda yadda yadda. But in 4B, any development she had with her parents was undone, and the entire arc was about darkening her soul for Rumple's evil plan. Yet, while still making the right choices, she got tainted anyway because she sacrificed herself to become the Dark One. Then in 5A, she was tortured by the earworms in her head, and later brooded around Storybrooke. Then her boyfriend got turned into a Dark One as well and pretty much renounced his love for her. When he came around, she was forced to kill him with a giant sword to the chest.  In 5B, she spent most of the arc in the Underworld in an attempt to resurrect her boyfriend... and failed. She had to leave him to die all over again. (Thank goodness for Zeus ex machina.) 6A rolled around and immediately she was faced with a prophecy saying she was going to die. Halfway through the season it was revealed her boyfriend murdered her grandfather, and they broke up. (With Emma claiming he didn't love her, just days before their wedding no less.) She and her boyfriend got married, then immediately they got separated by another curse, with the lives of their loved ones hanging in the balance.  And here we are in S7, and Emma's son leaves his family behind twice in a self-seeking quest fueled by testosterone. 

IMO, the mood has always been directly tied to Emma for better or for worse. Now that she's gone, the best word to describe it would be "lifeless".

Edited November 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kktjones]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

it all came down to Emma

As Jen recently said at a con, "Then Emma started crying and she never stopped." It was really a shame how bleak the show became. Season 3 and 4A still had some of that fun, adventure and fairy tale charm to it. Pretty much everything that came after that was just dark, sad and depressing. I guess writers now think that it needs to be dark to be taken seriously. They should have taken a page from Marvel and made the show more lighthearted and fun.

[Mabinogia]

They never should have made Emma the Dark One. It was very cheap storytelling "oh, let's have our hero be a villain, how creative and exciting would that be?" Well, the answer was, not very. And then to have Hook follow in her footsteps felt like retread. Emma, as the Saviour, was always, at least to me, meant to be the light that would cut through whatever darkness Storybrooke might face. Snuffing out that light, however temporarily, really did alter the entire show. 

I was drawn to this show because of how light and sweet and bright and shiny it was. I liked the whimsical side of it. When it went all bleak I started to lose interest. I'm not entirely sure why I'm still watching (well, watching again, I stopped for a season or two or so? I don't even know how many). I guess it's morbid curiosity? To see what they would do with a reset. So far, not impressed. This show that I worshiped in it's first season has become something I am actively rooting against. It makes me sad. So much for my happily ever after. lol

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

They never should have made Emma the Dark One. It was very cheap storytelling "oh, let's have our hero be a villain, how creative and exciting would that be?" Well, the answer was, not very. And then to have Hook follow in her footsteps felt like retread. Emma, as the Saviour, was always, at least to me, meant to be the light that would cut through whatever darkness Storybrooke might face. Snuffing out that light, however temporarily, really did alter the entire show. 

The writers quickly realized how absurd it would be for Emma to become the villain, so they just went the Emo!Emma route. At face value, the Dark Swan concept doesn't work. But it really doesn't work when there isn't any follow through or reason behind it. Yes, Emma made Hook a Dark One, but she didn't need to be one herself to do that. Her suffering was pointless. It's all made worse by the fact Rumple got all the power back anyway. There is no difference between the end of 4B and the end of 5B. Emma being the Dark One and Hook getting trapped in the Underworld meant nothing. You can't even say it made their love so strong, since Emma just easily gave up on him in S6. Nevermind she quite literally went to hell and back for him.

Edited November 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Mabinogia]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

There is no difference between the end of 4B and the end of 5B.

sadly, after maybe the second season, that can be said for every season. All this stuff would happen each season but they'd all end up pretty much where they started. This is especially true of Rumple. I feel like they are so in love with Robert Carlyle, and for good reason, he's great, that they couldn't kill him off, so they had to make him a good guy. But good Rumple isn't as much fun, so he'd go bad again. But he's Belle's love interest so he as to be good again. But they need a bad guy so he's bad again. They did the same with Regina, though they kind of pushed her more toward good while Rumple still goes back and forth like a freaking yoyo. 

I feel like the showrunners had one really great idea, reinventing the Snow White fairytale in a modern setting but with the original fairytale characters. Unfortunately, the show was a huge hit and they had to keep coming up with fresh ideas, but they couldn't. So they just keep redoing the same stories over and over. The new season was the perfect chance to do something fresh and new. Instead it's the same story with different characters. There's a dark curse, again, and a misunderstood daughter who creates it, there's a True Love couple (though I hate to even put Henella in the same group as Snowing. I mean, there is no similarity AT ALL! Snowing were sweet and charming and completely rootable. I believed they were smitten the moment they met. I still don't think Henry and Jacinderella even like each other. 

This reboot lacks all the charm of the original. Pretty much all of the characters were quirky and charming. Storybrooke was charming. Sure they were all under a curse, but they seemed to make the most of it. They were plucky and spirited. Jacinda lacks charm or spirit. Tiana has some spirit but she's barely been in it at all. Alice is like some weird Cheshire Cat who skulks around making cryptic comments but doesn't exist outside of that. The two cops are just there. I honestly can't remember a single thing RumpleCop has done on the show. I think he's said stuff to people and acted all shady, but I can't think of a single scene with him that stands out, and yet I can still vividly remember the scene in season 1 with him and Regina by the apple tree. He used to be a charming devil. Now he's just annoying. Victoria has none of Regina's flair. Ivy could get there, she's got potential, but she's just a little gem in a big steaming pile of poo. This season just lacks heart. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm not entirely sure why I'm still watching

Neither do I. Nostalgia? Hope? Boredom??

Good Rumple/Weaver is like Fun Bobby in Friends, who was an alcoholic, but such a good time-guy. When Monica convinces him to quit drinking, he turns into Ridiculously dull Bobby, and Monica takes to the bottle to just get thorough one more conversation with him.

[oncebluethrone]

I have very different opinions on how the show changed from 4A to 4B-6 because I happen to like the angsty direction the show took and I never thought there was a lack of pay-off (other than Killian's heart in 4A). 5A almost tipped the show from "angsty-hope" (my term for the show's overall tone in 4B-6) to "angst," but the more fluffy/lighthearted scenes in Camelot and Emma deciding to go to the Underworld to split her heart with Killian prevented that from happening. I think that both Emma and Killian's suffering in Season 5 was worth it because although Gold became the Dark One again, Killian was given a second lease on life and they were able to continue they're relationship knowing fully that they're love is true (even though they both believed it was before the test). I thought there was a good amount of emotional payoff for them in 5B and I didn't think there needed to be any after that, though I do believe that Emma and Killian were still dealing with the events of 5A in Season 6 even if them being Dark Ones was never mentioned. I also believe that most of their actions in the angsty part of their adventure/wedding arc in Season 6 (specifically 14 for Killian and 15 for Emma) was due to both of them believing their worst fears had come true. I believe that in episode 14, Emma was trying to tell Killian that giving the ring back meant "please trust me" with the implication that this wasn't a breakup and that she still wanted to marry him, but Killian took it as her saying "you're not good enough for me" and that she was ending their relationship. Hence why he made plans to leave on the Nautilus to make himself the man Emma deserves. But then Snow gave him one of her patented hope speeches and he realized that his relationship with Emma wasn't over, but then Gideon sent him away.  In episode 15, Emma was dealing with her deep-rooted fear of being abandoned because from her perspective, Killian had left when things got tough. Though it wasn't like there wasn't anything that might point her in that direction. There was Killian not coming home the night after their fight and both Grumpy and Snow seeing him on the docks (Snow also saw him with his bag). Plus there was the actual fight. I think Emma put 2 and 2 together and came up with the conclusion that she was abandoned because everyone always eventual leaves. That was her reality for the first 28 years of her life and a few years of her not being abandoned isn't going to erase those scars and that fear. There was also the fact that she lost Killian first to the darkness, then to death, and finally having to leave him behind in the Underworld in the previous season, which I think to her is equal to being abandoned. Season 6 happens to be my favorite season because, in my opinion, the show returned to the fairytale feel of earlier seasons (with literature this time), but kept the "angsty-hope" tone that had started in 4B and the huge Captain Swan focus of Season 5 (though to a lesser extent). 

I am enjoying Season 7 so far especially if what's happening relates to Rogers/Killian and Alice (because she is his daughter), Henry and Ella/Jacinda (they both need a lot of character development, though), and Ivy/The Witch/Tremaine. However, all the storylines feel disconnected because Henry hasn't felt like a protagonist after the first episode. In fact, the character each episode focuses on feels like the protagonist for that episode. That was never an issue in the first 6 seasons because Emma started establishing connections to the people in Storybrooke as soon as she arrived and the show never derailed from it being her fairytale no matter how much the episodes/arcs focused on this character or another. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by oncebluethrone

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Kktjones said:

They should have taken a page from Marvel and made the show more lighthearted and fun.

Or, better, from the two best DC shows.  Gotham is "dark", but is so much fun!  The way the characters dance around each other -- the writers pull out all the stops.  And Legends of Tomorrow is just goofy fun -- "plot-hole? Blame it on the anachronism!"

As for Marvel shows, I wouldn't think Inhumans could get much worse, but if A&E had been involved...  Yikes!

[Camera One]

The lack of whimsy and joy for me extends even back to 3B.  Oz could have been a fun arc, but it just wasn't.  The Missing Year could have resulted in some fun adventures in the Enchanted Forest going back to medieval tech, but it was baby-stealing depressing.  The Season 3 finale was probably the last truly full-out fun adventure we got to see involving main characters (though that was only 2 of them).

4A had a bit of fun mostly because "Frozen" protagonists were forced onto the show.  Although Anna was over-the-top at times, she and Kristoff did bring some fun onscreen.  

The only aspect of 4B which was "fun" were the scene-stealing Queens of Darkness... well, mostly Cruella.  

[CCTC]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

Oz could have been a fun arc, but it just wasn't.

Yes - I did not hate the Oz arc, but it really did not live up to its potential, esp. since they had a decent actress as the Witch.  Oz really should have been this different, amazing world.  It might have also marked where it was starting to show that A&E were tired of some of the original cast, because they became more distracted by shiny objects and started neglecting character for plot. 

I for the most part liked 4A, but I think it just strengthened the pattern of ignoring a good part of the cast for their latest fixation, and they also seemed to become more cemented into the Disney version of things instead of creating new takes.  Prior to the Frozen folks, no one really looked like their Disney cartoon, except maybe a little bit of Belle and Ariel.  Gone were the days of inventive new takes like Peter Pan  and season 1 Snow and Red Riding Hood etc.  Even Maleficent who was around before was re-imaged in her return to be modeled after the classic Disney version where she had not been originally.

You could argue that current Cinderella and Tiana are not like there original counter part, but they really seem like some generic spunky heroine rather than some clever, imaginative new interpretation that you saw with some of the characters in the first few seasons.

They really could have explored some inventive takes on old stories with the Land of Untold Stories, but that was quickly dropped for Regina's Patty Duke show homage and Aladdin.   I can kind of see why they went with Aladdin, but in the end, they wasted the characters and did nothing special with them.  I kind of wish they had not gone the safe route and stuck to the original untold story plan.  (The other story line I think they wasted was Camelot.  They really could have told an epic tale with those characters - who were played by decent actors.   They should not have been background characters for part of a season.)

Edited November 17, 2017 by CCTC

[Mabinogia]

I feel like, other than the original Evil Queen/Snow/Saviour story, the show has just blown through and squandered a LOT of fairytales. Ruby's story was interesting. I'll give them that. I liked how they twisted that fairytale a bit. But they just blow threw stories too quickly. 

Another mistake, IMO, is having everything connect personally to Rumple. It's fine if the connection is like original Cinderella, where he granted her wish in exchange for a price. It would tie everything together if he touched each story in a very peripheral way, but having him SOOOOO important to soooo many stories became a freaking joke. He's Henry's grandfather, Zelena's mentor, Regina's mentor, the actual enactor of the Dark Curse (Regina was just the tool he used to make it happen), Peter Pan's son (don't even get me started on that one), Belle's true love (which would have worked if he'd stayed redeemed. I always loved Beauty and the Beast, so thank you show for shitting all over that love story). I just feel like they changed the show because of how much they like certain actors. They did it with Rumple, they did it with Regina. Granted, both are amazing actors and perfect in their roles, but the writers worship of them has completely changed the focus of the show. 

[KAOS Agent]

Given cast interviews it sounds like they took the input of the wrong actors and ignored those with the right instincts. Lana loves her character a lot (and that's totally understandable and great). However, when you love someone like that you want them to have all the good things. When she pushed for all of those things, they gave them to Regina. It's unfortunate for Lana that they listened to her because better and more realistic antipathy and drama between the characters would have been an excellent acting challenge for her.

On the other side, Robert Carlyle talked about how he argued with Eddy about the stupidity of Golden Queen. He's also been spot on about how the show is losing viewers because it drops plot lines, is bleak and relentlessly sad. Further, he's said that Rumpel should be used sparingly and that he does not deserve a happy ending. 

[Camera One]

I find Robert kind of disingenuous at times.  Sometimes, he seems to say the frank truth, and then other times, he gives a glowing review of that episode where Belle dies happily in love with Rumple, which the character didn't earn.  Colin referred to Robert saying that the show needed a bold change to reinvent itself, but the character who has been played out the most and should have been the first one out the door was Rumple.  

[Camera One]

I rewatched this clip from Season 5 (that Youtube recommended for me... uh, thanks), and it reminded me that this show was almost more infuriating when we had the original cast.  At least now, I couldn't care less about the new characters, or what happens.

That scene highlighted so many of the show's problems.  First, there were the magical gurus Zelena and Regina pulling things out of thin air to explain the situation.  That type of thing got really bad in Season 6.  Somehow, in this scene they could feel the "aura" of the Olympian Crystal and conclude that Rumple used it for a tethering spell.  Based on what?  Why would they or even Rumple know the in's and out's of the Olympian Crystal, something specific to the Greek Gods?

Then, look at that scene, which had a whopping 7 regulars in attendance.  Hook, Charming and Henry each get one line, and Snow basically just stands there.  

Finally, there was that "drama" between Regina and Emma.  

After rewatching something like that, you'd almost rather eat a beignet with some herbal tea.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

At least now, I couldn't care less about the new characters, or what happens.

You have a point. I'm mostly apathetic while watching these days, with very few exceptions. It's almost nice to watch without really being invested. lol

[VoicePlaya]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I rewatched this clip from Season 5 (that Youtube recommended for me... uh, thanks), and it reminded me that this show was almost more infuriating when we had the original cast.  At least now, I couldn't care less about the new characters, or what happens.

 

Ugh. I completely forgot about this scene. It's a perfect example of what made the show so maddening.  I hope you didn't make the mistake of reading the comments like I did. Again, ugh. 

You're right. I think I'd rather watch paint dry than watch that scene again, but a beignet with tea is definitely more appealing. Even a drug infested beignet. 

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Sick that Adam still claims people had free will under the Curse.

Wow... quoting some tweets posted and referenced by MaiLuna in the "Eloise Gardner" thread:

Quote

Celeste LaScala‏ @MsMeiriona 8 mar. 2013

@AdamHorowitzLA So, once again I'm going to ask. When are you going to stop joking and address the fact Regina raped Graham?

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA

@MsMeiriona She also killed him, which we addressed. Neither thing's a joke. Regina has done terrible things which is why she's EVIL Queen

Celeste LaScala‏ @MsMeiriona 8 mar. 2013

@AdamHorowitzLA your comments at Paley about 'not bringing him back for his sheriffing' and sating Regina's sexual appetite?

Adam Horowitz‏ @AdamHorowitzLA 8 mar. 2013

@MarquesadeSanto 1st of all, that was Eddy, not me. 2nd that was a joke about sex, not about anything non-consensual.

Celeste LaScala‏ @MsMeiriona 8 mar. 2013

@AdamHorowitzLA How can he consent when he is under the control of the curse telling him he is in a sexual relationship with her?

Adam Horowitz‏ @AdamHorowitzLA 8 mar. 2013

@MsMeiriona within the curse, the characters DID have free will. They just didn't know who they really were.

I guess Adam forgot that in "Welcome to Storybrooke" (which would already have been written and filmed by that time), Regina had Graham's heart on his desk and commanded him to arrest Owen's father.  Graham totally had free will, right?  It's even more sickening if the Writers would assume he made the choice to continue to sleep with Regina while Cursed.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

We need to start a #justiceforgraham campaign a la Stranger Things until the writers are forced to acknowledge Graham's rape. In this climate, Adam is delusional to be making statements that show he doesn't understand consent. 

[Shanna Marie]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I guess Adam forgot that in "Welcome to Storybrooke" (which would already have been written and filmed by that time), Regina had Graham's heart on his desk and commanded him to arrest Owen's father.  Graham totally had free will, right?  It's even more sickening if the Writers would assume he made the choice to continue to sleep with Regina while Cursed.

Yeah, people had free will under the curse, but Graham had his heart ripped out so that Regina could control him, and she started raping him before the curse. There was the "have him sent to my bedchamber" after she ripped his heart out, and he looked horrified. Then in Storybrooke, the way he acted and talked about his relationship with Regina, it wasn't something he wanted to do. It was a compulsion he didn't understand, and it sickened him. There was nothing in season one to indicate that he was sleeping with Regina out of his own free will.

[KAOS Agent]

Regina also shoved him up against the wall and forcibly kissed him. Let's not forget the part where she called him her pet and says her castle is now his cage. 

Evil Queen: From this moment forward, you will do everything that I say. And if you ever disobey me, if you ever try to run away, all I have to do is squeeze. Your life is now in my hands – forever. Take him to my bedchamber.

That's not and never could be construed as free will. It's explicit in what she says. And then she murdered him. None of this was ever addressed by Regina. Nor was she ever expected to face consequences for enslaving, raping and then murdering a man. Fuck the writers for even trying to play this off as anything other than completely horrific and disgusting.

Consent is a huge problem with this show. Zelena/Robin, Regina/Graham, Arthur/Guinevere, Gothel/Hook. Even David & Kathryn were magically roofied into a relationship that they wouldn't have chosen had they not been mind raped. Let's take it further. How about that time Hero!Regina took Belle's heart and controlled her into kissing Rumpel in 4B? Or when Rumpel transformed himself into Hook and kissed Belle as part of some supposed friend pact? 

 

[superloislane]

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I guess Adam forgot that in "Welcome to Storybrooke" (which would already have been written and filmed by that time), Regina had Graham's heart on his desk and commanded him to arrest Owen's father.  Graham totally had free will, right?  It's even more sickening if the Writers would assume he made the choice to continue to sleep with Regina while Cursed.

Even if she didn't use the heart in Storybrooke, Graham's memories were erased, he was made to believe he was someone else and he was brainwashed into thinking he had a consensual sexual relationship with Regina from day one of the curse when we know for a fact that he would never consent to this. How exactly is that free will?

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Or when Rumpel transformed himself into Hook and kissed Belle as part of some supposed friend pact? 
 

He actually felt up her boobs, saying it was some pirate promise or something. 

There's also MM sleeping with Whale, which apparently David is still sore about, as though she intended to cheat on him, and as if he himself hadn't slept with Kathryn under the Curse. According to A&E, it's all free-will.

[Camera One]

I was watching some clips from Season 1, and one thing I never understood was.  Why did Sydney continue to do her bidding, when his wish backfired and he ended up trapped in the Mirror?  Was he so obsessed with her that he wasn't angry she used him?  

I remember how annoyed I was in that city council meeting where Regina revealed she was building that pointy playground for the kids.  What happened to city council, anyway?  Who were those people on council?  I remember I was so curious about all that.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

If "The Thing You Love Most" is to be believed, Rumple gave her the Dark Curse at some point before she traded it to Maleficent in exchange for the sleeping curse she used on Snow White.

This made me wonder about some unanswered questions.   Like why would Rumple be okay with Regina giving the Sleeping Curse to Maleficent?  Was it because Rumple could see pieces of the future and knew it wouldn't matter?  Why did Regina decide not to use the Dark Curse and opted for the Sleeping Curse instead?   Why would Rumple give Regina the Dark Curse so early on?

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

But it was totally free will, right?

I bet back then they 100% thought it showed Regina as a powerful seductress, and not a vindictive rapist. And I bet once they started hearing the backlash, it started to sink in. They tried to either joke about it (like the “they may have been playing chess” podcast remark), or claimed that people had free will under the Curse, despite that being a nonsensical statement. Also, according to them, Mary Margaret cheated intentionally. Funny how these rules only incriminate the so-called heroes, but absolve Regina of wrongdoing.

They really do bend over backwards to stress that heroes like Snowing or Emma had free will and made the wrong decisions.  They stressed that with Mary Margaret and David in S1,  with Snow killing Cora in 2B and again with Egg Baby in 4B (it wasn't Isaac, it was their own choice, except the Apprentice didn't have free will).  With Emma, it's even more ridiculous, like blaming her for bring Marian back in 3B or pushing Cruella off the cliff in 4B.  These events get dredged up over and over again (Regina was still making cracks about Snow murdering her mother in 4B and Emma basically apologized over and over again in 4A).

Meanwhile, multiple heinous crimes by villains are swept under the rug with excuses like "They're so difficult to love" (Rumple) or isn't that so "bold and audacious" (Regina) or "wicked" (Zelena).  Half the crimes aren't mentioned again, even when they are extremely important to a character's response.  In the Season 6 scene where Snow credits Regina with being the one to make her hopeful, but it's like Snow's father didn't die because of her.  When they do mention something a villain did (eg. Regina separating Snowing and Emma for 28 years), it's dismissed with "Well, you got her back in the end."  On Twitter, they even make up explanations to dismiss crimes (eg. Regina killing Wish Snowing... on Twitter: They weren't real).   Now that we have six full seasons to look at, the pattern is very stark.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

They really do bend over backwards to stress that heroes like Snowing or Emma had free will and made the wrong decisions.  They stressed that with Mary Margaret and David in S1,  with Snow killing Cora in 2B and again with Egg Baby in 4B (it wasn't Isaac, it was their own choice, except the Apprentice didn't have free will).  With Emma, it's even more ridiculous, like blaming her for bring Marian back in 3B or pushing Cruella off the cliff in 4B.  These events get dredged up over and over again (Regina was still making cracks about Snow murdering her mother in 4B and Emma basically apologized over and over again in 4A).

Meanwhile, multiple heinous crimes by villains are swept under the rug with excuses like "They're so difficult to love" (Rumple) or isn't that so "bold and audacious" (Regina) or "wicked" (Zelena).  Half the crimes aren't mentioned again, even when they are extremely important to a character's response.  In the Season 6 scene where Snow credits Regina with being the one to make her hopeful, but it's like Snow's father didn't die because of her.  When they do mention something a villain did (eg. Regina separating Snowing and Emma for 28 years), it's dismissed with "Well, you got her back in the end."  On Twitter, they even make up explanations to dismiss crimes (eg. Regina killing Wish Snowing... on Twitter: They weren't real).   Now that we have six full seasons to look at, the pattern is very stark.

Yes they do. Snow can't ever bring up that Cora was about to become the Dark one and kill everyone. But Regina tell Emma when she's the dark one that she's the worse. When all Emma did was break up Henry and Violet in order to free Merlin. EVIL! Its evil to free someone. Even when Emma's evil she can't go off on Regina about all the crap Regina's done. No, of course not, how will Regina still be able act like a martyr if everyone calls her out on her crap. I suppose the only really good thing about season seven is Rumple and Regina left Storybrooke. That town must be celebrating every single day. Snow and Emma probably talk to each other a lot. The Charming family probably spends time together. Longer then three seconds. Sure Henry's gone but really Emma is he that much of a loss? All he ever did was blame you and side with Regina? Part of me hopes it was all a long con to rid themselves of Rumple and Regina. Sure Henry left but does anyone really miss him? 

[superloislane]

9 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I suppose the only really good thing about season seven is Rumple and Regina left Storybrooke. That town must be celebrating every single day. Snow and Emma probably talk to each other a lot. The Charming family probably spends time together. Longer then three seconds. Sure Henry's gone but really Emma is he that much of a loss? All he ever did was blame you and side with Regina? Part of me hopes it was all a long con to rid themselves of Rumple and Regina. Sure Henry left but does anyone really miss him? 

I've said this before but I love to think that the reason Regina was really quick to leave Storybrooke was because when Henry left everyone realized that they didn't have to speak to Regina anymore, put up with her crap or invite her to hang out with them. And now both she and Rumple (and maybe even Zelena I haven't been following this season) are all gone there must be actual parades every day and the sun is always shining and crime doesn't exist! I never expected Emma and Hook and the Charmings to have THIS good of a happy ending!

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

With Emma, it's even more ridiculous, like blaming her for bring Marian back in 3B or pushing Cruella off the cliff in 4B.  These events get dredged up over and over again

I'll never get over when Emma was slapped in the Underworld and called a murderer by Cruella and even Henry was trying to rewrite things so she wasn't a murderer (despite Emma killing her because Cruella had a gun to Henry's head) but Regina didn't get any response from any of her victims and instead she was apologized to by her father-who she killed!

[Rumsy4]

They're dishonest writers. The only way they can get viewers to root for their favorite characters (aka Regina and Rumple) is by disingenuous writing. They don't want villains going through a genuine redemption arc. It's all whitewashed and papered over. Or they go the other extreme as with Hook and use him as a whipping post. 

[Camera One]

I do think the redemption and atonement Hook has gone through has all been necessary for making him a character that we can root for.  Even with him, the whole killing-David's-father thing was twisted around to make Emma seem like an unfair person, while we got to see Hook feel bad as he went on a quest to return to her.  And then he comes back and David decides off-screen that it's no big deal and maybe they're even since he was being really mean to Hook in his "centric", which featured less than a minute of Young David.  

[Rumsy4]

39 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I do think the redemption and atonement Hook has gone through has all been necessary for making him a character that we can root for. 

I agree, but they took it too far with him killing David's father in a completely OOC manner. But then, Season 6 almost turned me off a lot of my fav charatcers and relationships, including Captain Swan. I pretty much have to ignore most of what happened in that Season so to not ruin my enjoyment. I know some posters here keep insisting that Season 7 will be forgotten, but I think most of the fandom would prefer to forget Season 6 ever happened. It was a horrible season to pretty much all charatcers. 

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I agree, but they took it too far with him killing David's father in a completely OOC manner.

Oh, I HATED the Writers making him kill David's father too.  I just meant that the focus was still more on the perpetrator vs. the victim.  

Quote

But then, Season 6 almost turned me off a lot of my fav charatcers and relationships, including Captain Swan. I pretty much have to ignore most of what happened in that Season so to not ruin my enjoyment. I know some posters here keep insisting that Season 7 will be forgotten, but I think most of the fandom would prefer to forget Season 6 ever happened. It was a horrible season to pretty much all charatcers. 

Yes, Season 6 was unforgivable because they knew certain characters were going, yet they still churned out repetitive filler garbage.  Of course, it's not like they would have written a kickass final season anyway, but their desire to drag the show out for a requel only made the result even more lacklustre than it would have been otherwise.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

7 hours ago, superloislane said:

I'll never get over when Emma was slapped in the Underworld and called a murderer by Cruella and even Henry was trying to rewrite things so she wasn't a murderer (despite Emma killing her because Cruella had a gun to Henry's head) 

At least the Apprentice talked sense into Henry about that.

24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Oh, I HATED the Writers making him kill David's father too.  I just meant that the focus was still more on the perpetrator vs. the victim.  

 

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I agree, but they took it too far with him killing David's father in a completely OOC manner. 

Nothing but a twist for shock value. Too many "wouldn't it be a twist if" twists, regardless of how they affect continuity. Like Snow and David having had a chance to reunite with Emma earlier than we thought. 

[Camera One]

Just thinking about the patterns on this show with regards to parents/children.

Both Snow and Charming had relatively innocent parents who were murdered.

Meanwhile, Regina, Rumple and Hook all killed their own fathers.  Regina and Rumple tried to and succeeded in killing their mothers, respectively.  

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/25/2017 at 5:05 PM, Camera One said:

I do think the redemption and atonement Hook has gone through has all been necessary for making him a character that we can root for.  Even with him, the whole killing-David's-father thing was twisted around to make Emma seem like an unfair person, while we got to see Hook feel bad as he went on a quest to return to her.  And then he comes back and David decides off-screen that it's no big deal and maybe they're even since he was being really mean to Hook in his "centric", which featured less than a minute of Young David. 

That whole storyline was the culmination of the cumulative effect of years of them not dealing with the inherent conflicts they set up and instead throwing in contrived conflicts that they then didn't really resolve or deal with and instead threw in more contrived conflicts that had to be bigger and bigger until they got ridiculous. By that time, David had a bad case of The Shepherd who Cried Pirate (a little-known fairy tale). We'd had so many episodes of David being an absolute jerk to Hook against all reason -- in 3A when David was angry that Hook put his life and his ship on the line to help them because of Emma; again in 4A when he didn't think Hook was good enough for Emma and accused Hook of only thinking of her as loot to win in spite of the fact that Hook had given up his ship to reach Emma so she could help them, then went through a time portal with Emma so she wouldn't be alone and helped David rescue Snow and Emma; and then again for no good reason at all in the episode in which we learned what happened with David's father, with David being obnoxious to Hook, who by that time had died multiple times to help David's family, and it's kind of hard to say a guy's not good enough when a god decided he deserved another chance at life and put him back where he belonged, with Emma. After all that, when there finally was a real reason for David to be angry, he'd already spent all his anger capital on nothing while Hook had done so much for them all in spite of the way they treated him, and it was at the point where getting angry at Hook again some more would still look bad. If David had treated Hook fairly all along, then he would have had more room to get angry this time when Hook deserved it.

Then on the Emma side, it mostly boiled down to them having established some very strong internal conflicts for Hook and Emma that they kept touching on and then totally ignoring. They laid it all out there in 4A: she was afraid of someone else she loved dying while he was afraid that he didn't deserve love because of the bad things he'd done. Then they entirely skipped any follow-through of his desperate voice mail message, when he warned her in spite of fearing that if she knew what he'd done, she wouldn't want him anymore, and we actually got to see her living out her nightmare of watching a man she cared about being killed while she was frozen and helpless, and they completely skipped addressing that. It came up again in 4B in the Ursula episode, but she only gets to think he's dead for about 30 seconds, with no time to react, and they don't really deal with the fear that he brings up again. It could have come up in season 5 and was kind of the reason she turned him into a Dark One rather than letting him die, and then there was his existential crisis in the Underworld, but they mostly just skimmed over it rather than letting them really address it head-on. It was their usual resolve it all with a hug. So they should have framed the season 6 situation with that same ongoing issue -- and you don't get over issues that deep easily. They did have him wanting to just erase the memory because he couldn't live with himself, but they didn't really address that problem because by the time he got back, she was just so glad to see him again. But with her, believing that he'd left her was so out of the blue and out of character. It would have fit better if Gideon had staged what looked like an accident, where he made everyone think the Nautilus was destroyed with Hook on it. Then Gideon could have had his Savior tear from her crying over Hook's believed death (again) and her facing that fear of him dying. Since David didn't seem to care, there was no point in making Hook his father's murderer. It was just a contrived conflict with Emma instead of dealing with real conflicts that were already there. It also didn't help that after she'd spent most of the season hiding things from him while he was patient and understanding, she got mad at him and broke up with him when he hid something from her. They always undermine the good guys' legitimate grievances by making them be hypocrites about their own behavior.

Almost every one of their stupid shocking twists was purely contrived to create new conflict when they'd never dealt with the real conflict that was already there. Like they never dealt with Emma and her parents and all they issues they'd have, so they threw in the fear of her magic that they never really faced, and then they threw in the eggnapping, which never amounted to anything (Emma's darkectomy didn't even make a difference with her being a Dark One), and then they seemed to give up on even having contrived conflicts, so the Charmings outsourced dealing with Emma to Hook. Which made David's treatment of Hook look even weirder, when he was constantly letting Hook deal with Emma whenever something was wrong or she was upset. That's why I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall when Josh got the script for the Annual Captain Charming Episode after David and Hook seemed to be friends and David was having Hook go talk Emma down from the latest crisis, and Josh was playing the nonverbals all along as them being friends, and then suddenly there's a script where he has to say nasty things to Hook and treat him like he doesn't trust him.

[Camera One]

These Writers don't know how to write conflict without resetting everything to ground zero.  It's so much easier to write that way.

Though David's inconsistent treatment of Hook didn't bother me that much.  If anything, that actually made me like Hook more, since that took awhile for me, and now I'm fully behind his character.  For a long time, laments about poor Wook really kept me from liking him, and had a similar effect to me as the constant defense of Woegina or excuse-making like Zelena didn't kill Neal, or Regina didn't kill Leopold, or Emma left Hook to die in 2A, or Rumple was just protecting the people he loved.  This show was really good with spawning defence brigades for the various villains.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

or excuse-making like Zelena didn't kill Neal

Even after Zelena herself said, in these exact words, "I killed Neal." ?

[Rumsy4]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

They always undermine the good guys' legitimate grievances by making them be hypocrites about their own behavior.

I agree. Besides, it felt like Hook had to completely lose his identity in order to be properly integrated into the Charming clan. He even became a freaking cop, which felt like an unnatural throwback to his Lieutenant days (which wasn’t really him either, as he was just trying really hard to live up to his ideal about his brother). And he was in the position of being beholden to them because they had graciously forgiven him despite him having killed David’s father in the past. In the meantime, he has no family or friends to support him other than the Charmings because they’re all in different realms (Liam 2.0, Nemo, Ariel, etc.). I’m convinced A&E threw in the twist of Hook killing David’s father just to bring him to the same level as Regina. By then, he had become too popular, (maybe even more than their fav Regina), and they had given him a better redemption arc than Regina, only to undermine it this way. 

Season 6 was not favorable to Charming either, IMO. His hot & cold treatment of Hook was only one of the issues I had. His bringing up of Snow’s one-night stand with Whale was disgusting, considering he himself slept with Kathryn at that time (likely multiple times, as Kathryn had bought a pregnancy test), and they were both cursed (A&E strike with the consent issues again). The last straw was him capitulating to Snow’s demand to not go to little Emma in order to save Storybrooke. He should have bid sayanora to Snow and walked through the portal to be with his daughter. At least Snow would be left as collateral, if they were suddenly that worried about their kingdom, when in past, they didn’t seem to give a damn. That retcon was once again done to place the responsibility on the Charmings for abandoning baby Emma instead of rightly on Regina. 

Like I said before, I need to actively ignore Season 6 in order to retain my good opinion of even my favs. As for the characters I already disliked or had serious issues with (like Regina and Rumple), I was just done with them. So, at the end of the day, my three main favs still remain the same (Hook, Emma, and Charming).

I imagine it was the same with people who already had a hard time liking Snowing or Emma (yes, there have always been some viewers who didn’t like her) or Hook. 

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

excuse-making like Zelena didn't kill Neal

Are you saying you think Zelena actually did kill Neal, or the other way round?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Rumsy4