A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[ParadoxLost]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

I see a lot of comments on websites that the show should have been cancelled last year, etc.  While that would have made more sense since half the cast left, I think it's unrealistic to think that Season 6 or the finale would have been any better.  A&E would still have waited until the wire, with no urgency to provide a proper ending. 

Season 6 would have been better if they got cancelled. Not great, but better.  The finale I'm less certain of.

I will always believe that they were working very hard to get the audience used to not having the Charmings around by not featuring them in S6.  In addition to that, I think there was a lot of spite towards JMo for no agreeing to stay that bled into how they wrote Emma.

With cancelation they don't have those impulses influencing the writing.

[Rumsy4]

56 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Do they realize, that while people like an occasional redemption story, they really like to see a villain get his or her just desserts. 

Exactly! That's why people cheer when Harry defeats Voldemort. Or when Barad-dûr collapses. Or when Wonder Woman destroys Ares. Nobody would root for Harry Potter to bake lasagne for Tom Riddle, or for the hobbits to crown Saruman as a special guest of the Shire. 

[CCTC]

16 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Season 6 would have been better if they got cancelled. Not great, but better.  The finale I'm less certain of.

I have mentioned this before, and I don't think they would have ever done this, but I thought a great "big bad" for the last season would be to have Rumple go all out evil with full abandon.  He had just absorbed all of the dark ones the previous season, it would have been a logical thing to happen.  They really could have played on the history of the characters from the previous 6 seasons and focused on the original cast (and Hook - who is like the original cast).  Plus, I think Carlye would have loved it and he could have really brought some menace rather than the giggling imp he had been playing in f;flashbacks the last few seasons.   (When I re-watched some season 1 episodes last year, I could not help but notice how the character had a strong malevolent undercurrent that later was diluted as just being sparkly and a frustrating riddle-making busy body).

[CCTC]

11 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

, or for the hobbits to crown Saruman as a special guest of the Shire. 

This made me laugh - partially because it is a funny and ludicrous image and sadly partially because it would have been been that unlikely to happen on this show.

[ParadoxLost]

4 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I have mentioned this before, and I don't think they would have ever done this, but I thought a great "big bad" for the last season would be to have Rumple go all out evil with full abandon.  He had just absorbed all of the dark ones the previous season, it would have been a logical thing to happen.  They really could have played on the history of the characters from the previous 6 seasons and focused on the original cast (and Hook - who is like the original cast).  Plus, I think Carlye would have loved it and he could have really brought some menace rather than the giggling imp he had been playing in f;flashbacks the last few seasons.   (When I re-watched some season 1 episodes last year, I could not help but notice how the character had a strong malevolent undercurrent that later was diluted as just being sparkly and a frustrating riddle-making busy body).

They really did the same exact thing to Rumple as they did to Regina when you think about it.

Regina's relationship with Snowing/Emma is really not that different than Rumple and Belle.  Snowing/Belle kept bouncing back and forth between forgiving their abuser and believing they've changed to Regina/Rumple doing something awful and back again with no actual reason for the abrupt turnarounds.

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Exactly! That's why people cheer when Harry defeats Voldemort. Or when Barad-dûr collapses. Or when Wonder Woman destroys Ares. Nobody would root for Harry Potter to bake lasagne for Tom Riddle, or for the hobbits to crown Saruman as a special guest of the Shire. 

Or being treated as a villain for forcing the big bad to become bad. Imagine Harry Potter constantly being blamed that it was his fault Voldemort went bad. Or not giving him more chances to be good.  Voldemort giving endless poor me speeches that Harry would have to sit and listen to. Then try to cheer him up. 'I was a brat Voldemort. Who cares you killed my parents and tried to kill me." That's not how it works A&E!

[Rumsy4]

29 minutes ago, CCTC said:

[Rumple] had a strong malevolent undercurrent that later was diluted as just being sparkly and a frustrating riddle-making busy body

Absolutely. Carlyle was obviously bored with the part. Regina devolved into a caricature of herself too. In the later seasons, Lana's portrayal of the Evil Queen turned into a campy caricature. I donno if it was because Lana couldn't play the part with conviction anymore.

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

The glossing over the (in some ways pretty realistic) abusive relationship might have pushed me away from the show as much as the cast departures.

Even Rumple's off-screen redemption rings false. We are supposed to believe that he and Belle living a lifetime alone, not interacting with any other human being, except for occasional visits from their son, meant that Rumple had changed? It seemed more like Belle realizing that the only way she could keep him good was to isolate him from people as long as she was able to do so.

[Shanna Marie]

23 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina's infamous lasagna scene is the clearest instance of this. That scene shoved viewers into two boxes - either you must sympathize with Regina, or you're a terrible person because look at her tears. Funny thing is, there's still quite a bit chunk of fans who fell into the first box. No matter how terrible Regina has been written, a fanbase for her sparked that had all the pity in the world for her.

You get that to some extent with villains in just about everything. There are all the Draco fans and the people proudly declaring themselves to be Slytherins, even though Draco was a racist bully. There are the Kylo Ren fans, etc.

But I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that this is a show of moments. They seem to write to create emotional moments, regardless of whether or not those moments fit into context. Take the lasagna scene. If you isolate it from the show as a whole, your sympathy is naturally with Regina. Who hasn't felt like an outsider trying to break in with the cool kids but feeling excluded? It's something just about everyone can relate to, and they built that scene to pull on those memories and feelings. If you ever tried to join the cool kids' table in the school cafeteria, only to be snubbed, you feel for Regina. The problem is that if you look at it in context, it would upend those memories because Regina isn't the nerdy outsider. She's the bully mean girl who's been tormenting the others. The reason she's alone, without friends, is that she let one of her friends get locked up in the mental ward to cover for the fact that she ordered the kidnapping (and murder) of her other friend (though I still wonder where all her black knights are in Storybrooke).

The same thing applies to the farewell scene between Roland and Zelena -- as a moment, it's a touching scene with a cute kid and a baby. It gets really creepy when you think about it at all, considering Zelena murdered Roland's mother and raped his father, and how would you explain the baby sister to him?

Or the Last Supper tableau in the season 6 finale. If you just look at that scene, it's all the characters gathered together for the kind of family dinner we'd been begging to see through the whole series. But then in context it's weird because they're all hanging out with people who've murdered their loved ones and who've attempted to murder them.

Basically, this is a show written for tumblr -- you get the best viewing experience from gifs and short video clips.

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, CCTC said:

they really like to see a villain get his or her just desserts. 

Even if it's just a pie to the face! (see what I did there?)

[tennisgurl]

42 minutes ago, XrystalPond said:

As abusive as Rumple was, at least nobody other than Belle had to pat his head and call him a good boy. Granted I dont think Rumple cared if he got left out by the cool kids. 

Yeah, I think thats why, as repetitive as his arc was and how abusive his relationship with Belle was, I never quite hated the way I hated Regina. Rumple at least was aware of the fact that he was a crappy person, and he didn't really care if people (other than his family) liked him or not. That actually made his relationships with the good guys more complex, especially more so than their groveling to Regina. They were allies at times, and even had moments of compassion or understanding, but none of them really trusted or wanted each other around, and everyone except for poor Belle knew how he was. Regina and crocodile tears and how everything was re-written to make her the victim of everyone else and how everyone had to act like like she was so awesome just made me loath her even more. 

By making Regina the eternal victim and everyone suddenly excuse all of her evil actions without her ever really working to repent, they actually made her less interesting, and made everyone around her less interesting as well. Its actually funny. Awhile ago, I was watching the show with a friend who never saw it before, and when they got to the part where everyone is going off to eat and Regina is crying alone, she actually said "Is she seriously crying? Wasn't she trying to kill them like last week?" I also tried to not say much when she asked if "that bitch" (her loving term for Regina) gets her cumuppence later. Oh, you sweet summer child. 

[Camera One]

I hated how Regina destroyed Snow (and Henry).  I hated all the scenes of Regina/Snow together.  I felt zero chemistry between them because I couldn't buy the kowtowing.  They had Snow angsty a lot of the time with Charming, but when she was with Regina, she was suddenly all forgiving and dancing on sunshine over the minor fact that Regina killed her father and did nothing while her mother tossed her nanny out a window?  They kept saying Snow was all about hope but usually when most crises occurred, she constantly had to be reminded to be hopeful, so I never bought that her naivé made her forgive Regina.  I hated Regina/Snow even more than Regina/Emma.

I began to despise Rumple in Season 5 but even moreso in Season 6... even though only Belle praised him, he was so cavalier about his betrayal, so entitled that HE wasn't going to change.  I also hated how everyone had to go crawling to him for help every single time.  And the Writers even had Belle compare Emma with Rumple because of the Dark Swan incident.  Speaking of which, 6 seasons and the Writers failed to integrate Belle into the team of heroes.  I never got the sense that she was friends with Emma, or Snow, etc.  Jasmine was a ruined Disney princess, but I'd say Belle was ruined even more.  And now Cinderella too with Season 7.

So both R&R are pretty rage-inducing in my books.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I hated how Regina destroyed Snow (and Henry).  I hated all the scenes of Regina/Snow together.  I felt zero chemistry between them because I couldn't buy the kowtowing.  They had Snow angsty a lot of the time with Charming, but when she was with Regina, she was suddenly all forgiving and dancing on sunshine over the minor fact that Regina killed her father and did nothing while her mother tossed her nanny out a window?  They kept saying Snow was all about hope but usually when most crises occurred, she constantly had to be reminded to be hopeful, so I never bought that her naivé made her forgive Regina.  I hated Regina/Snow even more than Regina/Emma.

I began to despise Rumple in Season 5 but even moreso in Season 6... even though only Belle praised him, he was so cavalier about his betrayal, so entitled that HE wasn't going to change.  I also hated how everyone had to go crawling to him for help every single time.  And the Writers even had Belle compare Emma with Rumple because of the Dark Swan incident.  Speaking of which, 6 seasons and the Writers failed to integrate Belle into the team of heroes.  I never got the sense that she was friends with Emma, or Snow, etc.  Jasmine was a ruined Disney princess, but I'd say Belle was ruined even more.  And now Cinderella too with Season 7.

So both R&R are pretty rage-inducing in my books.

 

Regina/Snow scenes were so hard to stomach. Had they given Regina a real redemption then maybe. That's a big maybe. It would have to happen after Regina apologized to Snow, after she tried to make up for it.  Regina burying her heart because the pain from losing Henry was that bad. Zero references or care to Snow having to lose her daughter again and now her grandson. All because of Regina. The stroll to save Emma where Snow encouraging Regina to cheat with Robin. Yeah, because that's exactly what someone who was separated from her husband for 28 years and forced to endure his pretend marriage would say instead of the 'more fish in the sea' or 'what the hell makes you think you deserve love what you did everyone'.  Not the Emma/Regina were any better. Emma begging to remain Regina's friend? Sure because it makes complete sense to beg the woman who ruined your entire life, murdered your grandfather, murdered Graham and continues to be a complete bitch to you up until this very moment. That's exactly what the Emma who took a chain saw to Regina's tree in the second episode would do. Its hard to stomach watching characters not being allowed to say what they should or what they would say. Say nothing when Regina says she doesn't regret anything she did. Say nothing when Regina complains how much she's suffered. Say nothing when she's yelling at Emma for saving Marion's life or being more evil for taking Violet's heart.   

My hate for Rumple became permanent in season four. He no longer had any "reason" for being evil. He just was. He no longer cared about anyone or anything. His constant lies to Belle when he wasn't knocking her out so he could go off and be evil. I too hated how they made everyone come crawling to him for help. I hate how his constantly flipped back and forth between helping and working against the "good" guys and never once having it stick. Or have the good guys say something or do something. Sure Rumple tried to kill us last time, but this time he probably won't.  Let's feel sad for Rumple his heart is so bad because he's been so evil he might die. Good. Why would anyone save him? They should celebrate his dying and death instead. There was zero reason for Robin to help him. There was zero reason for Belle to be crying because Rumple might die. What's almost worse about Rumple is they undid the truly one good thing he did which was killing his father, by killing himself. That would have been a perfect ending for Rumple. Finally giving up his life to save his family. To save Bae.          

Edited February 9, 2018 by andromeda331

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Sure Rumple tried to kill us last time, but this time he probably won't. 

Perfect example of Charlie Brown and the football. Lucy is Rumple.

[tennisgurl]

Remember how totally down with executing Regina Charming was back in Cricket Game? Like, he was 100% ready to fill her with arrows up until the very last second when Snow told them to stop. Good times. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

Remember how totally down with executing Regina Charming was back in Cricket Game? Like, he was 100% ready to fill her with arrows up until the very last second when Snow told them to stop. Good times. 

Not gonna lie - that used to be my least favorite episode of the entire series. I plan to rip it apart whenever we do a rewatch.

[Camera One]

They pretty much ended the show with the Dwarves bowing down to Regina.   That said it all.    I'm surprised all the people of Storybrooke didn't kneel à la Mulan at the end of the movie.  Everyone actually owed their existence to The Evil Queen, the evilest part of Regina ever.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

33 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Perfect example of Charlie Brown and the football. Lucy is Rumple.

And the football is a grenade!

[tennisgurl]

21 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Not gonna lie - that used to be my least favorite episode of the entire series. I plan to rip it apart whenever we do a rewatch.

And it sucks, because there is some good things in it. Seeing the towns folk hang out, Snow and Charming getting walked in on by Emma and Henry after some alone time, some other nice town bits, and Charming being all commanding and kingly. Tragically, it was also the one with LasagnaGate, that would go onto start the "poor sad Regina" theme that would last for the entire freaking series. Regina and her crocodile tears over that damn pasta, followed by the flashbacks of Snow kicking Regina out of their jail and stopping the execution (if they had killed or jailed her, SO MUCH BAD WOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED!) ended foreshadowing the beginning of the end for the show. It was also a part of the weirdly specific "feel sorry for Regina while we flashback to her killing people all the time" plot that happened over and over from then on. 

[Camera One]

How Snow and Charming were treating Regina in Storybrooke, blaming her for Archie's disappearance was EXACTLY how they should have acted the entire series.  For once, they were learning from their lessons of the past.  But of course, the entire message of the episode was that Snowing was wrong and unfair and judgemental and so mean to poor Regina who was falsely accused and completely innocent.  Of course, Regina didn't think... oh wait, now I know how Snow felt to be unfairly accused of a crime and I get why they didn't believe me.  It's let's join Mommy Dearest who I pushed away a billion and one times in flashbacks but now I'll believe everything she says because plot.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Camera One

[superloislane]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I hated how Regina destroyed Snow (and Henry).  I hated all the scenes of Regina/Snow together.  I felt zero chemistry between them because I couldn't buy the kowtowing.  They had Snow angsty a lot of the time with Charming, but when she was with Regina, she was suddenly all forgiving and dancing on sunshine over the minor fact that Regina killed her father and did nothing while her mother tossed her nanny out a window?  They kept saying Snow was all about hope but usually when most crises occurred, she constantly had to be reminded to be hopeful, so I never bought that her naivé made her forgive Regina.  I hated Regina/Snow even more than Regina/Emma.

I began to despise Rumple in Season 5 but even moreso in Season 6... even though only Belle praised him, he was so cavalier about his betrayal, so entitled that HE wasn't going to change.  I also hated how everyone had to go crawling to him for help every single time.  And the Writers even had Belle compare Emma with Rumple because of the Dark Swan incident.  Speaking of which, 6 seasons and the Writers failed to integrate Belle into the team of heroes.  I never got the sense that she was friends with Emma, or Snow, etc.  Jasmine was a ruined Disney princess, but I'd say Belle was ruined even more.  And now Cinderella too with Season 7.

So both R&R are pretty rage-inducing in my books.

I couldn't stand Regina because of what the writing for the other characters became because of her - I actually think that's by biggest complaint. I didn't particularly like her character either but that was the big one. Every other character would be twisted around to suit her, to say things they would never say, to forget everything that happened and blame themselves while also giving her pep talks etc. It drove me crazy. Snow came out of it worse off than anyone though-she was completely destroyed to the point where she was unrecognisable by the end. A lot of that is due to the Regina writing but the writers also gave up on her. They were as interested in her as they were in Neal! And I never even understood why anyone said she was hopeful when she was the least hopeful person and always gave up if there was a difficult situation - just watch some of her scenes during the different crises they all faced, Snow always accepted the situation as it was even if it was terrible and didn't think about fighting (the Dark Ones stuff springs to mind) especially when it came to Emma which is another way they destroyed her unfortunately. That strained relationship with Emma and the fact that Snow always gave up on her and didn't seem to have a connection with her in the later seasons seems to have been totally unintentional on the writers' part. If it was intentional that could have been a fascinating story but of course we were supposed to think everything was fine between them.

I think Emma escaped a better than Snow from the Regina writing but I think that was because Emma occasionally got to do things. She was a Dark One, had the Elsa/Ingrid stuff, and had shaking hands so she at least wasn't standing around in the back without a story for seasons on end. She also had the Captain Swan relationship which took up a lot of her time and the writers were interested in that for a while so she wasn't always patting Regina on the back, whereas the writers hadn't been interested in Snowing since season 2 which meant the only relationship they wrote for Snow was with Regina.

Rumple escaped my hatred for a while because the only person who said he had a good heart was Belle. But the awful Rumbelle writing actually made me despise Belle by season 6 - she was one of my least favourite characters at that point. But then the writers couldn't help but have the heroes ALWAYS go to him for help even when it made no sense for them to do this! And then the abusive season 6 stuff and then...the Savior stuff which was so awful I have tried to wipe it from my mind. I always felt they would try to make Regina a savior because they're in love with her but shockingly they had Rumple have the 'he was born a savior' nonsense which showed that the writers fell too in love with Rumple by the end. That was a travesty. And I remember they had Emma call him a savior and feel bad for him for being abandoned and blah blah blah. That season made me despise him.

[Kktjones]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

I hated Regina/Snow even more than Regina/Emma.

While I loathed both of these, what I think I hated most was that these two relationships ruined my favorite relationship from Season 1 & 2A which was Snow/Emma. The writers clearly decided these two relationships were more interesting and just completely stopped writing for the mother/daughter relationship. And there was SO much potential there! How does Snow feel about Emma co-parenting with the woman who terrorized her? How does Emma overcome all the feelings of abandonment to forge a real, honest relationship with Snow & Charming? How does Snow feel about Emma finding her own true love, but with a former villain? How does Emma feel now that Snow got that replacement baby? There was so much great fodder there that they just completely left on the table. As someone said above, they weren't writing the relationship as strained, but it definitely came off that way at times - primarily because these two barely interacted after Season 2. It sometimes boggles my mind to think of all the untapped potential this show had that they completely wasted...

[CCTC]

That was another thing that stuck out to me as I was re-watching season 1 - the friendship between Mary M and Emma.  It is odd how they took what should have been a primary relationship of the show, one they spent time building up the first 1.5 seasons, one where the actors worked well together, and then just kind of dropped it.  If anything, she had more parental scenes with Josh in the later seasons where they were able to manage having a good father-daughter bond without sliding into inappropriate chemistry since they are close in age.  Maybe because David and Emma were often working together, they seemed more natural.  Snow's scenes with Emma the last few years were also the occasional hope speech that was all platitudes and cliches (and I think Ginny - who I do think can be good actor - was starting to have a hard time showing she could not believe the trite words coming out of her mouth).  It really is a shame, because they started things off with the two actresses well.

Edited February 9, 2018 by CCTC

[Camera One]

Josh finally got parental scenes in s3 when Ginny had a baby but even that evaporated after 4A.  It is unfathomable.  

Even the hope speeches Snow had with Emma after s2 can be counted on half a hand and lasted less than a minute.

[daxx]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Let's feel sad for Rumple his heart is so bad because he's been so evil he might die. Good. Why would anyone save him? They should celebrate his dying and death instead.

I wish they had just moved him over the town line when his heart turned black instead of putting the darkness in the hat. Then he could have died and the darkness with him in the land without magic.

[KingOfHearts]

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

They pretty much ended the show with the Dwarves bowing down to Regina.   That said it all.    I'm surprised all the people of Storybrooke didn't kneel à la Mulan at the end of the movie.  Everyone actually owed their existence to The Evil Queen, the evilest part of Regina ever.

 

"Dear Ms. Regina,
Back in the Enchanted Forest, you killed my mom, my dad, my sister, and my brother. You burned our village down. My grandmother begged for mercy, but you laughed and ripped her heart out. None of us knew where Snow White was, but you didn't care. Most of us hadn't even met her. The Blue Fairy told us to have hope, but I'm the only one left. Even though I was scared while I hid under the dead bodies, I later realized you taught me to have hope by taking everything away from me. So thank you, Ms. Regina. You're the best Mayor ever!"

Quote

And it sucks, because there is some good things in it. Seeing the towns folk hang out, Snow and Charming getting walked in on by Emma and Henry after some alone time, some other nice town bits, and Charming being all commanding and kingly. Tragically, it was also the one with LasagnaGate, that would go onto start the "poor sad Regina" theme that would last for the entire freaking series. Regina and her crocodile tears over that damn pasta, followed by the flashbacks of Snow kicking Regina out of their jail and stopping the execution (if they had killed or jailed her, SO MUCH BAD WOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED!) ended foreshadowing the beginning of the end for the show. It was also a part of the weirdly specific "feel sorry for Regina while we flashback to her killing people all the time" plot that happened over and over from then on. 

My issues with the episode go far beyond the Regina's lasagna antics. There was enough character assassination to go around.

Edited February 9, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Sometimes, I feel mad at myself for watching this stupid show for so long. It really devolved into a metaphor for Rumbelle at some point (especially Season 6). I perpetually had false hope that the Show might delivery some kind of satisfaction to me as a viewer. I almost feel bad to admit that I considered giving up the Show after every B-arc since S2, but the finale pulled me back each time. In the S2 finale, I loved the promise of the Neverland arc. In S3, I enjoyed the CS movie so much, that I decided to come back. In S4, it was the Dark Swan ending. By S5, it was more of a habit, but I really regret watching S6. It pretty much ruined all the characters. S7, I'm not really invested.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Souris]

23 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Season 6 would have been better if they got cancelled. Not great, but better.  The finale I'm less certain of.

I will always believe that they were working very hard to get the audience used to not having the Charmings around by not featuring them in S6.  In addition to that, I think there was a lot of spite towards JMo for no agreeing to stay that bled into how they wrote Emma.

With cancelation they don't have those impulses influencing the writing.

ITA. They also set up the storyline to get people used to not having Captain Swan, keeping Hook and Emma separated the entire season. Basically, they sacrificed Season 6 in order to set up Season 7.  I will forever be bitter at them for that. It just shows how mercenary they are, with no regard for the characters or what fans wanted to see. Just really crappy storytelling.

[ParadoxLost]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

How Snow and Charming were treating Regina in Storybrooke, blaming her for Archie's disappearance was EXACTLY how they should have acted the entire series.  

What they never understood was that this behavior was the best road to redeeming Regina and getting sympathy for her.  Its easier to root for an underdog.  If Regina had done good or had shown a consistent loyalty to someone or shown that she'd turned a new leaf and got nothing but misery and recrimination on her, then the audience would have likely started getting behind her in a more consistent and less factional way.

They should have double downed on Regina being sad over being excluded but persevere in a desire to change instead of cursing everyone like in EF.  Instead they did that scene once and it was supposed to make everything forgiven because Regina was sad.

For me, the problem was the characters forgave her so I never could.

11 hours ago, superloislane said:

Rumple escaped my hatred for a while because the only person who said he had a good heart was Belle.

For me, it was because of that and he consistently didn't want to help the townfolk.  Belle had to twist his arm or someone had to make a deal.  He wasn't fake about it.

[andromeda331]

9 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

What they never understood was that this behavior was the best road to redeeming Regina and getting sympathy for her.  Its easier to root for an underdog.  If Regina had done good or had shown a consistent loyalty to someone or shown that she'd turned a new leaf and got nothing but misery and recrimination on her, then the audience would have likely started getting behind her in a more consistent and less factional way.

They should have double downed on Regina being sad over being excluded but persevere in a desire to change instead of cursing everyone like in EF.  Instead they did that scene once and it was supposed to make everything forgiven because Regina was sad.

For me, the problem was the characters forgave her so I never could.

That would have worked better. Plus showing Regina actually trying to do better. It makes sense people wouldn't believe her right away or for awhile. Or assume it was another one of her tricks.

 

Quote

For me, it was because of that and he consistently didn't want to help the townfolk.  Belle had to twist his arm or someone had to make a deal.  He wasn't fake about it.

 

That too. I was always more surprised when he didn't help Emma. In season one he seemed to like her and that favor he had for her was only to help find his son when it could have been so much worse. Same with Henry. I thought when he realized that was his grandson he'd realize that his fondness for Henry was because he reminded him of his son. Nope, he never really cared for him either after the Curse broke. Which seems odd. He loved Bae. You'd think he'd love Bae's son. And object to Regina raising his grandson.  

[Shanna Marie]

On 2/9/2018 at 12:45 AM, Camera One said:

How Snow and Charming were treating Regina in Storybrooke, blaming her for Archie's disappearance was EXACTLY how they should have acted the entire series.  For once, they were learning from their lessons of the past.  But of course, the entire message of the episode was that Snowing was wrong and unfair and judgemental and so mean to poor Regina who was falsely accused and completely innocent.  Of course, Regina didn't think... oh wait, now I know how Snow felt to be unfairly accused of a crime and I get why they didn't believe me.  It's let's join Mommy Dearest who I pushed away a billion and one times in flashbacks but now I'll believe everything she says because plot.

Yes, I love how all the people Regina had previously tried to murder and whose loved ones she had murdered were more wrong for believing the evidence that Regina had murdered Archie than Cora was for having framed Regina for murder. This was when they could have actually redeemed Regina by having her realize how manipulative Cora was, realize and acknowledge that Cora had manipulated 10-year-old Snow as badly as she'd almost managed to manipulate an adult Regina who knew what Cora was like, and then try to change teams, only to have to deal with people who weren't very accepting of her. Instead, she joined up with Cora, was an accessory to still more murder, and was plotting to kill them all, but we were supposed to feel for her because she wasn't welcomed to the potluck. Of course, the other problem there was Emma inviting her in the first place. Emma had just seen the damage done by the curse, had learned the life stolen from her by the curse, had said it was Regina's fault. Regina had been working with Rumple to keep them from returning and only changed her mind at the last minute because Henry caught her. Would Emma really have wanted to be friends with Regina after that? It's like her returning from seeing the Evil Queen in action, watching her try to burn Snow at the stake, and having been set for execution herself, and instantly wanting to introduce Marian to Regina and being totally cool with her.

Regina was written fairly consistently as a narcissistic sociopath incapable of empathizing with others and always seeing herself as a victim, even when she was the one doing bad things. The problem was that no one was allowed to treat her like that was the case. They had to coddle and praise her and take whatever she dished out at them, which was out of character for human beings, in general.

On 2/9/2018 at 11:38 AM, daxx said:

I wish they had just moved him over the town line when his heart turned black instead of putting the darkness in the hat. Then he could have died and the darkness with him in the land without magic.

There was no reason for Robin to have put himself at risk to get that potion to save him in New York. Rumple was dying of the consequences of his own evil. He had no hold over Robin. If he'd died, things would have been better for everyone. In fact, Robin might still be alive because if Rumple had died there, there would have been no more Dark One, no need to go to Camelot, no chance of Hook being wounded with the magical weapon so that Emma would have to turn him into a Dark One, no Dark Ones coming to town, no Hook dying to stop them, no trip to the Underworld, no Hades running free in Storybrooke.

21 hours ago, Souris said:

They also set up the storyline to get people used to not having Captain Swan, keeping Hook and Emma separated the entire season. Basically, they sacrificed Season 6 in order to set up Season 7. 

I don't think it was that deliberate. I think they were just writing what they wanted to write, possibly appeasing the loudest Internet bullies who screamed at them whenever Hook and Emma were together, possibly trying to generate drama because they didn't know how to write a happy couple (ditto with the Charmings). They didn't seem to realize that a happy couple could fight villains side-by-side, and that the drama could come from dealing with the villains. The only way they know how to write relationships is to separate the couple. If they're together, they're boring. See also Belle and Rumple, Robin and Regina, and now Henry and Cinderella. The only way they write relationships is getting them together, then separating them, then getting them back together, then coming up with some other excuse to separate them.

[Camera One]

Agreed.  These writers don't know how to write for a couple who is actually together, so they rely on a happy reunion at the end of an arc, or they push them to the side to act as exposition fairies.  This problem occurred very early on.  Snow and Charming spent just an episode together in 2A before being separated again.  When they WERE together in 2B, they immediately became supporting players.  The decision whether to stay in Storybrooke or to go back to the Enchanted Forest should have been huge, but they were relegated to the B plot or even the C plot.  So it wasn't surprising that the default strategy in Season 6 was separation of couples whenever possible so they could do that emotion reunion that lasts 3 minutes.  

[tennisgurl]

Now that the show is ending, and some people are talking about a re-watch, I gotta ask: What are you favorite scenes, characters, episodes, stories, etc. from Once? What kept YOU here for so long, through the good, the bad, and the ugly? Because, as much as I have to complain about how many ways this show failed, the reason I complain so much is because I loved it so much, and I've seen slivers of good, or even brilliant, work throughout the series. 

For example, I really love the episode Hat Trick. I think I actually like it more retroactively than I did at first, because it showed so many elements that the show would later dump in favor of Regina pandering and convoluted family stuff. Its got great performances, especially from Seb Stan and Jen (and them being a couple at the time probably does make their chemistry spark more), it actually played with the ideas of world hopping in a way that made sense and had actual stakes, the Hatter was a really interesting character, and I liked his combination of pitiable and scary/crazy (which Seb Stan would perfect in the MCU) and his backstory, and miserable life in Storeybrooke. You really could see how this place was a curse, and how Regina has so created a world to screw with people who upset her. It also had a magical feeling to it that would be lost later, both in the flashbacks, and in the present. I just freaking love Jefferson's ending where Emma pulls his scarf off (after saying he was crazy and delusional) and sees the decapitation scar on his neck, and he screams "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS" before disappearing out the window, leaving only a hat. Granted, a lot of that wasn't followed up on, explained, and it sucks that Jefferson wasn't used more later, but it was still a great, atmospheric episode that moved the plot and characters in natural ways, and seemed to be hitting that "fairytales in real life" sweet spot. 

What about you? 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

This was when they could have actually redeemed Regina by having her realize how manipulative Cora was, realize and acknowledge that Cora had manipulated 10-year-old Snow as badly as she'd almost managed to manipulate an adult Regina who knew what Cora was like, and then try to change teams, only to have to deal with people who weren't very accepting of her.

In fact, this is where I thought the show was heading to. Oh, how naive I was back then...lol

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't think it was that deliberate. I think they were just writing what they wanted to write, possibly appeasing the loudest Internet bullies who screamed at them whenever Hook and Emma were together, possibly trying to generate drama because they didn't know how to write a happy couple (ditto with the Charmings). 

I think it was deliberate come 6B. By then, Emma barely had lines in some episodes, and then spent most of time in B plots. Hook had his own adventure for three episodes. Snowing were useless as usual. The focus was mostly on the Rumple/Black Fairy crap. The Series Finale had Henry front and centre. The writers were definitely setting the stage for Season 7.

[andromeda331]

33 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

In fact, this is where I thought the show was heading to. Oh, how naive I was back then...lol

I think it was deliberate come 6B. By then, Emma barely had lines in some episodes, and then spent most of time in B plots. Hook had his own adventure for three episodes. Snowing were useless as usual. The focus was mostly on the Rumple/Black Fairy crap. The Series Finale had Henry front and centre. The writers were definitely setting the stage for Season 7.

That's where I thought it was going too. They really seem to be setting it up. Regina listens to her mother in the car but throughout the arc there were moments it looked like Regina was going to end up betraying her mother or finally standing up to her. Her concern when she asked Cora about her becoming Dark One and her shock at learning Cora killed Snow's mother. But then nope. It never happened. Instead we got Regina pissed at Snow for killing Cora. I mean, what? That's the infuriating thing about the show. At times it looks like its setting up for something. But not only does it not do that. They double down on the wrong thing. Regina is pissed over her mother's death. The woman who murdered Daniel, terrorized her for her entire life until Regina got rid of her. None of that ever gets brought up again. I might buy Regina being shocked at first. But after awhile you'd think Regina would remember how horrible her mother was, how it was best that she was killed before she got the powers of the Dark One. Or even wishing her mother wasn't so horrible that she had to die. Nope. We get Regina blaming Snow for Cora's death, Snow being sad at murdering Cora and thinking she took the easy way out (of what? There were no other options at the time Snow!) and of course my favorite, Cora gets into Heaven.

[Camera One]

I think instead of raising Regina up to regret and reconciliation, A&E's strategy was dragging Snow and Emma down to Regina (and Rumple)'s level to show the heroes were grey.  Looking at the entire series, there was a systematic effort to ensure Snow and Emma committed a lot of the same "crimes" as Regina and the villains.  Why would Regina need to apologize for killing Snow's father, if Snow killed Regina's mother?  Snowing also kidnapped a baby and separated the child from her mother for 28 years, so what Regina did wasn't that bad.  Snow enacted the Dark Curse too, and was willing to kill her husband.  Mary Margaret committed adultery in Season 1 so who was she to judge Regina with Robin?  And finally, in Season 6, we found out Snow chose to not reunite with Emma even though she could've.  See, it's not because of Regina, it's Snow's own choice.  Meanwhile, Emma almost killed Lily, and Emma as Dark Swan turned a man to stone, turned Hook Dark without his consent, ripped the heart out from her child's significant other (just like Cora)... as Belle said, Emma was just like Rumple.  Even Charming in Season 6 was willing to murder someone for revenge, so he was no better than the villains either.  And oh yeah, Baelfire was secretly evil all along.  Thank goodness his father saved him from himself.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

I am another one who assumed Cora as going to take over the role of a big bad and trigger the redemption of Regina.  I think this was already mentioned in this thread, but they actually did a decent job with her in 2A and I figured the arrival of Cora would make her due some self-evaluation and also allow Cora to be the force they all align against.  I thought she might have some struggle between the heroes and Cora, but I did not think she would so easily be lured to be on Cora's side, not because of something horrible, but because she felt people were mean to her.  I thought at the very least, she would begin to get a clue when Cora sent the Nanny off the bell tower, but instead she just cackled and gloated.  That was the one moment that made it hard for me to take her redemption for a long time.   It's odd, because they actually had a good semi-redemption path going and then just threw it out the window and then later tried to force the issue of Regina's martyrdom and goodness without even attempting to do some of what they did in 2A.

I wonder if Lana ever has any be careful what you wished for thoughts, because Season 1 and 2A Mayor Mills was a lot more of an interesting character to what she later became.  Granted, she could not have stayed like she was season 1 and stayed long term, but something gray like she was by the end of 2A could have worked long term and allowed her to play a few shades to the character without the stretch of credibility of her being praised as a true hero.   They could have made her an occasional reluctant ally that Gold often was.

[andromeda331]

38 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think instead of raising Regina up to regret and reconciliation, A&E's strategy was dragging Snow and Emma down to Regina (and Rumple)'s level to show the heroes were grey.  Looking at the entire series, there was a systematic effort to ensure Snow and Emma committed a lot of the same "crimes" as Regina and the villains.  Why would Regina need to apologize for killing Snow's father, if Snow killed Regina's mother?  Snowing also kidnapped a baby and separated the child from her mother for 28 years, so what Regina did wasn't that bad.  Snow enacted the Dark Curse too, and was willing to kill her husband.  Mary Margaret committed adultery in Season 1 so who was she to judge Regina with Robin?  And finally, in Season 6, we found out Snow chose to not reunite with Emma even though she could've.  See, it's not because of Regina, it's Snow's own choice.  Meanwhile, Emma almost killed Lily, and Emma as Dark Swan turned a man to stone, turned Hook Dark without his consent, ripped the heart out from her child's significant other (just like Cora)... as Belle said, Emma was just like Rumple.  Even Charming in Season 6 was willing to murder someone for revenge, so he was no better than the villains either.  And oh yeah, Baelfire was secretly evil all along.  Thank goodness his father saved him from himself.

I agree. They were trying to drag down the heroes so the villains don't look so bad by comparison. Why else would they harp forever on Snow murdering Cora and never once have anyone point out they had no other options at that moment? Why didn't Snow ever get to point that out? How come no one defended her by saying Cora with the Dark One powers would have been horrible. Except of course its not the same thing one murdered someone who was innocent. That was Regina murdering Leopold. Snow murdering Cora was not evil. It was her keeping someone evil become the Dark One and saving the lives of her family not to mention anyone else Cora decided to murder. Cora was horrible. We all knew it. They showed us her murdering Daniel, they showed us Cora stopping Regina from running away, they reveal Cora murdered Eva. Later they tried to convince us that Eva was evil because she told Leopold that Cora was pregnant. That's evil. Attempting to pass your baby off as someone else's? That's not evil at all. Nope nothing wrong with that at all. 

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking about the discussion a couple of days ago about whether or not this show became a soap opera, and I think this is another one of those things where they manage to hit the worst of both worlds.

Soap operas are all about the emotion. The plot mostly exists to create drama that will spur emotions, both for the characters and for the audience, and the emotions get milked for all they're worth. There are times when this show throws in soap opera twists that exist only for creating drama, like Hook learning he killed David's father, but it fails in really milking that emotion the way a soap opera does. A soap opera would have really delved into that, probably had some big, emotional scenes between Hook and David, in addition to lots of big, emotional scenes between Hook and Emma. But this show skims past the character and emotions, ignores the relationships, and rushes on to the next plot point.

But as much as we gripe about plot, plot, plot, this isn't really a plot-driven show. A plot-driven show would focus on process -- showing the steps along the way, discovering clues, and all the developments along the way. The major moments would happen on screen. Or there would be a focus on action, and all the action elements would happen on screen. But this show has a lot of the action moments take place offscreen and skips over all the process.

The 4A finale is like a case study in this. A plot-driven or action-driven show would have had Emma noticing the clues and figuring out what was going on rather than skipping straight from Anna asking who Gold was to Emma rushing to the clock tower and would have had Belle investigating Rumple before finding out what he was up to instead of her just finding a convenient magical object and skipping to her discovering Rumple. A soap opera would have delved into Emma's emotions, probably bringing in her fear of a relationship because of having lost everyone she's loved (in fact, that probably would have been the entire reason behind a Hook in jeopardy plot). We'd have seen a big, dramatic reunion scene once Rumple was gone, with Emma rushing up to the top of the tower, probably holding him in a Pieta-like pose before returning his heart -- not a few seconds in the hall by the bathroom before Emma rushed off to do shots with Regina. Meanwhile, Snow would have probably rushed off to find Belle, and there would have been some big, tearful scenes showing all Belle's reaction to what happened. There would probably have been some relationship fallout with Emma and Hook in the aftermath, with her either clinging to him and convinced that she can't wait or hold back for fear of losing him, or pushing him away because she's scared of losing him, only to realize she's still going to hurt if something happens to him (probably after the next bad thing that happens to him, since Hook is basically the show's damsel in distress). But we got neither the plot/process nor the emotion.

[andromeda331]

 Ironically, ONCE does remind me a lot of my old GH watching days. It reminds me of the bad parts and why I finally quit GH. GH the villains are the heroes. They are to be revered at all times, told how awesome and amazing they are, you are never to point all the ways they are hypocrites, they are always right. Sonny-Jason-Carly

On ONCE that was Rumple and Regina. 

Before Sonny-Jason-Carly took over the show they actually had families on the show. There was the Quartermaines, Scorpios, and others. There were whole scenes that didn't have those three in them and they talked about things other then those three. In fact there were whole arcs that didn't include those three.

On ONCE before Rumple and Regina took over the show there were families. The Charming family that was split but we got to see Snow and Charming meet and come together. We got to see Snow realize the wardrobe only took one, Charming fighting his way to get his baby daughter to safety. We got to see Mary Margaret and Emma build their relationship. We saw Emma and Henry built there's. Rumple's desperation to save Bae. We saw other characters Archie/Jiminy, Geppetto, Red and Granny, the Dwarves and their friendship with Snow. The pay off came for a moment after the Curse broke. Snow and Charming reuniting, Snow hugging the Dwarves, the tears. Emma's wall come down at Henry's death, her tears and kissing him. Belle calling Rumple out as a coward. Jefferson and Grace. 

When Sonny-Jason-Carly took over the show histories were ignored and people were only ever introduced based on their relationship with one of the three. Current characters were either written off or forced to be twisted around so they could be part of Sonny-Jason-Carly. Anyone who said something against the big three even if it was right, you were suppose to think that person was evil. You are never, ever suppose to think that person was right or had a point.

On ONCE when Rumple and Regina took over the show- histories were ignored and let's see Rumple's father was introduced, his mother, his ex-wife who he murdered which (but shh you not suppose to notice that part), and a whole lot of people Rumple screwed over the Queens of Darkness, . On the Regina front her mother Cora, her sister Zelena, her love interest Robin, her victims Percival, the Groom, Tinkerbell, Greg, Maleficent, Marian.         

On both show victims are treated as if their somehow worse.  Snow's entire life was ruined and destroyed, her parents were murdered, everything she had was stolen by Regina, she was separated from her husband and daughter for 28 years and entire villages were destroyed. But we're suppose to think Snow was bad. She told a secret when she was ten to a woman Regina knew was manipulative. On GH see AJ Quatermaine who got screwed over by all three characters, his son was stolen, threatened and forced to give up his son. But no remember he's the bad guy. Its not Sonny who held him hostage in a meat locker. Its not Carly and Jason who stole his son. Oh, Robin's evil too because she told AJ the truth. No matter what Rumple does it doesn't matter. He can kill all he wants. Scotty Baldwin is evil because he tastes Sonny over what he did to his daughter Karen. Characters ruined on both shows due to the favoritism of two or three characters.  

[Camera One]

Quote

But as much as we gripe about plot, plot, plot, this isn't really a plot-driven show. A plot-driven show would focus on process 

I definitely agree that the Writers don't do plot or character well.  Although a *good* plot-driven show should focus on process, I would still consider this show more plot driven, because the Writers are thinking more about plot than character when coming up stories.  The characters constantly do or make decisions based on what the plot needs them to do, rather than would make sense based on their previous experiences and their core personality.

I guess a more accurate description than a plot-driven show might an outcome or surprise-driven show, whereby A&E are only thinking about the surprise twist at the end, or the reunion of a separated couple, but have no interest in how they get there. 

So they spin their wheels with repetition, go on detours, put in fillers, grab more shiny toys and most importantly, throw in a ton of contradictory clues, resulting in a nonsensical mess, and then there's a mad rush to the resolution usually with a random MacGuffin or a coincidence.

It is very rare that they have an outcome which is character-based, and when they do, they are even worse at developing it.  One example where they probably thought of a character outcome early on is the planning for 3B.  They clearly wanted Emma to realize "There's no place like home" because they were putting their own spin on The Wizard of Oz.  But they were completely incompetent at developing it beyond having Emma repeat she wanted to move to NYC ad nauseum and then come up to a sudden realization in the last 20 minutes of the half-season.  

Then, the next season, they start again with deciding on a twist or a reunion, so they completely disregard what came before since they're bored of it.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

And oh yeah, Baelfire was secretly evil all along.  Thank goodness his father saved him from himself.

By the end of Season 6. their Regina and Rumple apologism got so bad that they even stooped to making Baelfire evil, just to make Rumple look better. Young Bae was sort of the sacred cow of the series, and they ruined it.

5 hours ago, CCTC said:

I wonder if Lana ever has any be careful what you wished for thoughts, because Season 1 and 2A Mayor Mills was a lot more of an interesting character to what she later became.  Granted, she could not have stayed like she was season 1 and stayed long term, but something gray like she was by the end of 2A could have worked long term and allowed her to play a few shades to the character without the stretch of credibility of her being praised as a true hero.  

Tbh, I think Lana fell in love with her character and lost all perspective by the end of Season 1. That's why she petitioned abc for Regina to have a better relationship with Henry, claiming that the Show was discriminating against adoption. She later asked for a Love Interest for Regina. Her later season portrayals of the Evil Queen in flashbacks or the Clone Queen stuff got quite campy too. Why the writers keep giving Lana everything she asks for, but doing a crap job of it, is beyond me.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

By the end of Season 6. their Regina and Rumple apologism got so bad that they even stooped to making Baelfire evil, just to make Rumple look better. Young Bae was sort of the sacred cow of the series, and they ruined it.

Tbh, I think Lana fell in love with her character and lost all perspective by the end of Season 1. That's why she petitioned abc for Regina to have a better relationship with Henry, claiming that the Show was discriminating against adoption. She later asked for a Love Interest for Regina. Her later season portrayals of the Evil Queen in flashbacks or the Clone Queen stuff got quite campy too. Why the writers keep giving Lana everything she asks for, but doing a crap job of it, is beyond me.

I agree. Lana, A&E all fell in love with Regina and lost all perspective on her character. And really they ended up ruining the character. Regina would have been so much better if they either kept her evil or tried to redeem her. There could have been so many really great scenes and acting to be had by having Regina hit rock bottom and have to climb out of it. I'm not sure why she would want to skip over those acting scenes. Think of how great it would have been if Regina had shown Henry she really changed? That she really worked hard, had a couple slip ups but managed to redeem herself? To work harder to be a better mother. To apologize for how she treated him in the past. Aren't these scenes that an actress would want to do? Instead of all the instant stuff? I'm not sure why they kept giving her instant stuff instead of real meaty stuff or why Lana wouldn't want those scenes. Or does she simply not care because she managed to get her character nearly all the scenes, have everything changed for her character. She saw the writers love of her character and used it to get what she wanted? To be the star of the show? Is she happy that other characters were written off to give her more screen time? That nearly all the other characters basically stand around cheering her character on? I don't really understand how she could be so happy with how Regina ended up being written. She lost out on a lot of really good scene and story potential.  A&E also love Rumple, but Robert seems to see his character for what he is. Lana really doesn't/   

[Camera One]

I think Robert is pretty delusional too though to a lesser extent.  Rumple doesn't deserve Belle, much less the "Up" parallels.  

[KAOS Agent]

He toes the company line when he's doing specific promotion, but he was open about his opinions on why the show was losing viewers and he was spot on. He's also said that Rumpel is a villain and doesn't deserve a happy ending. He doesn't have control in the writers room though and has to go along with the story they want to tell, which is why you'll find him saying the Up! homage was wonderfully sweet and a great send off for Belle or whatever, but see him expressing a different opinion when asked about it in a different venue.

Both Robert and Emilie were protective of Rumbelle and didn't see it as abusive in its earlier incarnations, but after 6A, both changed their tune about it. Emilie straight up said that she would never allow herself to be treated the way Rumpel treated Belle and neither should anyone else. That's someone who knows she needed to be supportive of the story for promotional purposes, but is clearly disturbed by the relationship and does not want fans to romanticize that type of behavior in real life because it is not okay. It's a fine line to walk and it can seem hypocritical, but their job is to promote the story we're shown on screen even if they don't agree with how it's being portrayed.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think I've ever seen Robert say anything negative about Rumpbelle. Out of all the cast members, he seems to care the less about preserving his image on the show. It would be odd for him to be so no nonsense, then to cover for Rumpbelle. It's my belief he genuinely finds them to be a good couple worth rooting for.

[Camera One]

The fact that he stayed for season 7 suggests he doesn't consider his character a total write-off and worthless.  I doubt he can be that against it but keep on.  I don't see why he would go overboard and say both he and Emile cried when they read the script if that wasn't true.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

He hasn't said anything negative about Rumbelle, but I think it's more because he likes Belle and respects de Ravin. However, he has also said many times that Rumple should stay a villian. To me it seems like he thought Rumple should not be written as a villain if Rumbelle was on the table. It should be either Villian!Rumple or Rumbelle.

There was a con meet and greet where he pretty much laid out all his grievances against the writing of the Show. One of his major rants was against Golden Queen. He was also not happy that de Ravin had not been invited back as a regular for S7. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The fact that he stayed for season 7 suggests he doesn't consider his character a total write-off and worthless.  I doubt he can be that against it but keep on. 

I do think there are parts of the character he still enjoys playing, especially Imp!Rumple. But he does seem bored more often than not as Mr. Gold.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

However, he has also said many times that Rumple should stay a villian. To me it seems like he thought Rumple should not be written as a villain if Rumbelle was on the table. It should be either Villian!Rumple or Rumbelle.

But this, I believe, is the catch - Robert wanted both Villain!Rumple and Rumpbelle. It's that push-pull we've seen since S4. 

[superloislane]

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I'm not sure why they kept giving her instant stuff instead of real meaty stuff or why Lana wouldn't want those scenes.

In an interview for season 7, Lana said she was promised a love interest and a happy ending for her to sign on again so I think she's far more interested in Regina getting nice things all the time rather than having acting challenges for herself. That's what happens when you become the number one fan of your own character.

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

He hasn't said anything negative about Rumbelle, but I think it's more because he likes Belle and respects de Ravin.

I don't know - didn't Robert and Emilie get asked about Rumbelle being abusive and both of them were totally shocked that anyone would think this? I didn't think that was that long ago

Edited February 11, 2018 by superloislane

[Camera One]

Quote

But this, I believe, is the catch - Robert wanted both Villain!Rumple and Rumpbelle. It's that push-pull we've seen since S4. 

I agree, and this is exactly what A&E wants too.  And it's precisely those polar opposite goals which has failed over and over again since Rumple was resurrected in 3B.  Even a gradual forward-movement-slight-backslide with an overall trend towards redemption would have been better than the 180 degree see-saw that occurs abruptly every half a season.  A&E thinks Robert is such a great actor that giving a sadface or having Belle say out loud that Rumple is good deep inside will automatically absolve all his deception and homicidal actions.  At the end of the day, the character which was being completely undermined was Belle.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Camera One