A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Lady Calypso]

20 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The problem with Lucy is that there isn't even that much. Lucy doesn't do things because she has any kind of established character traits and this is what she would do for this reason. She does things because they were what Henry did in season one and the writers think they're clever for having parallels. She comes to Henry's place and tells him his family needs him, since that's what Henry told Emma, but Lucy doesn't know that the family consists of anyone other than her and her mother. She doesn't know that Roni is actually Henry's adoptive mother, that Weaver is his grandfather, that Rogers is his stepfather (or stepfather's alter ego). We don't know why she thinks her mother is Cinderella, why she thinks Henry's book is true. She just has this belief because season one Henry did, and history is repeating.

I agree with this. I think Lucy's purpose for this season is not as well established as Henry's role in the first season. First off, we don't really have a clear picture on how she knows what she knows, or why she is gunning so hard for Henry/Jacinda. I think they tried to explain it with Henry being the Author of the fairy tales, but I also feel like I'm also wrong as they barely acknowledged it before they moved on to some other plot. Henry's purpose in the first season was to find his biological mother and get her to break the curse. What was clear from the start was that Henry figured it out on his own because he was old enough to realize things were off, he wasn't part of the curse and had no curse memories, nor did Regina bother to use her magic to make him think that everything was normal, and we also learned very early on that it was Mary Margaret that gave him the fairy tale book to jump start Henry's motivation to find Emma. His purpose was to break the curse. It wasn't just because he didn't like his adoptive mom, knew she was the Evil Queen, and wanted to live with Emma instead. He knew Emma needed to come to Storybrooke to break the curse, to give not just him a happy ending, but to give everyone in the town their happy ending. 

Lucy's motivation this season is to...whine about how her parents need to be together. No mention of breaking Victoria's (now Drizella's) curse so that they can be free. We don't even know if anyone outside of the main cast is cursed! For all we know, the main cast members got cursed and transported to an actual established city! And they're also dropping in random supporting characters, like Nick, when they're needed for the plot, despite having no mention on where he's been up until now. Lucy is so two dimensional that if you took her out of the story, the season doesn't really change. It would get rid of the annoying whining of this supposed True Love between Henry and Jacinda, and it doesn't give Henry a reason to come to Hyperion Heights in the first place (they literally could have had him driving and stumbling into Hyperion Heights, where he'd meet Jacinda and blahblahblah True Love inserted here), but Lucy has barely been needed. Not only that, but Henry was smarter in his first season. He was reckless, much like Lucy, but he had his own motivations and beliefs. He never gave up, even when Emma told him several times that she just didn't believe him, even when she tried to get him to stay with Regina. Didn't Regina also try to make Emma look like a criminal several times to get Henry to stop having a relationship with her and it didn't work? I mean, Regina tried REALLY hard to get rid of Emma in season 1 and it failed each time. Yet, Victoria tells Lucy the truth about the curse, then shows Jacinda kissing Nick, and that gets Lucy to stop believing? 

I was led to believe in the first couple of episodes that Lucy had some knowledge and some proof that her grandmother cast this evil dark curse and that she knew for sure that Jacinda was Cinderella and Henry was her father. But it became clear throughout the season so far that she's just guessing based off of....Henry's book, I guess? And that she's still as cursed as they are. 

Also, the major problem with this reboot is that they not only had Victoria, the supposed villain, appear very rarely until the last week, but they had EVERYONE cursed and basically treated the reboot as if this was their world, instead of them all being cursed. Weaver was cursed for many episodes until he was "awoken", had one line calling Victoria dearie and then was promptly ignored until the last episode, when he got to acknowledge that he knew that he was Rumple. Compare that to season 1's Gold/Rumple, when we guessed very early on after the first episode that he knew, and he got to have these shady conversations with Regina. We didn't even get official confirmation that Regina knew until a few episodes in. I mean, it was painfully obvious that she knew she was the Evil Queen, but she never said it aloud or went into her magic vault until a few episodes in. But they still played the first season with the knowledge that everyone was cursed and it had to be broken. This reboot has been treating the flashbacks and the present day scenes as if they're two different shows. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think part of the problem with Henry is that he was perfectly developed for the season one story, but almost all of his key character traits became irrelevant after that, and they didn't develop anything new for him that was at all consistent, and they kept writing the character the way they did in season one, even as he grew out of that phase. Season one's Henry was the perfect mix of old soul and childlike wonder and innocence -- he was an only child of a single parent and most of his social interactions were with adults (he seemed to have no child friends), which made him a lot older than his years, but he was also very sheltered, growing up in a small town that didn't interact with the outside world, and his belief in fairy tales was his lifeline. That was probably easy to play for a child actor because that fits the way a child actor's life works -- he's older than his years in some respects because he has a job and interacts mostly with adults, but he's also in a kind of a bubble, and his job is playing let's pretend, which might make him younger than his years. Continuing to write the character that way as he grew up made it a little creepy, and they kept forgetting how old he was. His age would jump years while time didn't pass for the rest of the show, sometimes they kept writing him as a ten-year-old even when he was taller than some of the adults, but then they'd have him going on dates and kissing his girlfriend on the mouth. There was no progression of growing up and maturing. No life lessons he learned seemed to stick and be built upon. He just did what the plot needed him to do.

Meanwhile, his key trait of belief was a big deal when no one around him believed and he had no evidence other than a storybook, but when everyone is aware of who they are and magic is happening all around, being the person who believes in fairy tales and magic is no big deal. They occasionally touched upon his desire for family, but then forgot about it (especially with the setup for season 7 -- would the kid who longed for more than two place settings at the holiday dinner table leave behind parents, grandparents, two baby uncles, an aunt, a baby cousin, and a younger sibling he might never see?). After Henry's belief was validated, Truest Believer became a meaningless title and was never replaced with anything else. They didn't develop his wistfulness about not knowing his father (other than retconning a lot of lessons and information we never saw), never had him follow up with Hook to learn more after the conversation before he got his memories back, never had him talk to Rumple about his father, never asked Emma for more information. They never bothered to really develop any relationship with Hook as a potential father replacement/stepfather, just lurching from trust to dislike to trust with no arc. They dropped the relationship he had with David as a father figure in season two, and there was no real arc to his restoring his relationship with Regina. He got turned into a plot device. With no consistent threads, no real arcs, no development of anything, he was a character who'd be impossible to play even for an experienced actor. Actually probably harder for an experienced actor because there would be nothing to work with in doing all the interior work a trained actor would do to prepare.

A&E made the same mistake with Henry that LOST did with Walt. Kids grow up. They kept the story in LOST compressed into a certain amount of time they spent on the island which is fine for adults. But with kids it doesn't really work. Because they grow up. They age. Walt's actor grew up there's no way he could pass for the same age he was in season one. Which meant his character ended up being written off. You'd think A&E would have learned from that and let Henry age naturally. Not only would it make sense to the character and give some breathing room for their stories. But given how much time Henry spent around adults it would make more sense for him to do so when he was older then trying to make him stay the same age for years but never spend any time with another kid his age. What kid wants to spend all his time with adults? Part of Henry's reasons for being lonely was he had no friends. It would have been nice to see him making friends and hang out with kids after the Curse broke. But no apparently A&E have learned nothing from LOST or all the wrong lessons.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Henry's purpose in the first season was to find his biological mother and get her to break the curse.

This might be the big issue. Henry's purpose was much greater than just completing his family. It was saving the town. He was always quite emphatic about his mom being the Saviour. His mom had to come not just because he wanted a mom but because the town needed her. It was also the central storyline of the season.

This season they didn't really connect Henry and Jacinda have to be together to save all these people. It just feels like Lucy wants them together because she thinks it would be cool to have a dad who writes fairytales. If it was mentioned that their reunion will break the curse it must have been brief. I just don't feel the "global" urgency to them getting back together.

I would be surprised if they are the ones who break the curse. I feel like it would more likely be Hook and Alice, or maybe Anastasia, possibly Roni or Rumple. Henry and Jacinda are last on my list of suspected curse breakers. I just don't feel like they are connected to that storyline.

This season's stories don't feel connected in the way Storybrooke did. You've got one group of people who seem to maybe be trying to possibly think about breaking the curse? One group of people searching for the Guardian for...reasons. And one group I think trying to maintain the curse? Or is Ivy the only one who cares about the curse? What is Victoria's storyline again? Is she pro-curse, anti-curse, does she even care about the curse? Or is she just trying to wake up her only child (sorry Ivy, you don't seem to count hahaha).

Storybrooke were all united by a common goal with Emma as their defacto leader. This bunch of misfits are united by nothing and have no leader.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Mabinogia

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I would be surprised if they are the ones who break the curse. I feel like it would more likely be Hook and Alice, or maybe Anastasia, possibly Roni or Rumple. Henry and Jacinda are last on my list of suspected curse breakers. I just don't feel like they are connected to that storyline.

I think it will be Henry and Lucy, however under-developed it is. I do think WHook and Alice might get one to break their curse, but not the big one. Which at this point, apparently includes just 4 people with no memories of their true selves. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think it will be Henry and Lucy, however under-developed it is.

Yeah, they won't be able to resist copying season one, just like they had to bookend the end of season six with it being Henry and Emma yet again instead of mixing it up. The only way this is going to end is with Henry believing again and kissing Lucy. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do anything else.

[Camera One]

In this TV Line interview with A&E:

Quote

TVLINE | When in the course of hashing out Season 7 did you decide to make the casting of the curse a major mystery element?
KITSIS | Right from the beginning.
ADAM HOROWITZ | We felt that while there are some echoes and parallels to Season 1, we wanted to do a different thing. So it was a conscious decision when we did the premiere to not show who cast the curse, and make that an element of the storytelling for the season.
KITSIS | We also loved and were inspired by the 3B arc when we didn’t know who cast the curse, and it turned out to be Snow and Charming.

So they are inspired by their own freak'in selves.

Clearly, they learned nothing from the issues of 3B.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina casting the new curse didn't add anything to the story. It could have very well been Drizella using Contrivance #784362 to bypass the heart ingredient, and it would have changed nothing. At least in 3B, while Snow being the caster was only for shock value, there was at least a little bit of consequence to it in S6.  In S7, the identity of the curse caster didn't matter in the slightest. They could have told us right out the gate that Regina did it, and we'd still be wondering why right up to the winter finale.

Edited December 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina casting the new curse didn't add anything to the story. It could have very well been Drizella using Contrivance #784362 to bypass the heart ingredient, and it would have changed nothing. At least in 3B, while Snow being the caster was only for shock value, there was at least a little bit of consequence to it in S6.  In S7, the identity of the curse caster didn't matter in the slightest. They could have told us right out the gate that Regina did it, and we'd still be wondering why right up to the winter finale.

I don't think they could have.  We wouldn't have been wondering why she did it for half a season.  We would have been wondering who she loved and murdered to cast the curse.  And as bad as whatever loophole they crawled through in a single episode to have Regina cast the curse without killing a loved one was, pulling that stunt after a half season of speculation would have been 1000x worse and irksome.

But that is also why this was a stupid way to go in the first place.

[CheshireCat]

I've finally caught up on all the episodes and now that half of the season is over, I have mixed feelings about it. I actually like the twists on S1 and the first curse. I think they've managed to do a good job of taking the elements that they've had and putting them into this new story and I'm certanly enjoying seeing all of the old characters (and some of the new ones, too).

But it seems that they're rushing the flashbacks. Some are well done, the ones that concentrate on the individual characters. But the ones which concentrate on the actual background of how the characters all ended up in Seattle, they seem rushed. I think that was much better done in S1. 

I think FakeHook has become a lot like RealHook but we don't know how he got to that point. I feel that we know next to nothing about Drizella and her powers and how powerful she really is. Same about how the relationship between Regina and Henry and the rest of the new cast developed and/or why they all stayed in the Enchanted Forest. Has Regina not been back? Has she not been missed? Is everyone else still there and if so, why? And how much time has really passed?

I imagine we will get to see how Zelena ended up in the Enchanted Forest and how she got her magic back, still, it's just seems that there are too many individual stories in addition to the whole big story. In S1 everything seemed to concentrate and be connected to the first curse. Now, not so much.

Also, the timeline confuses me. I've always been able to deal with it, even if they took some liberties, it always made sense and I could follow and/or it didn't matter. Now, I find myself frowning at the time that passes and the characters aging. It's too much. It might make sense to the showrunners because they know all the details but I feel that we know very few details. I didn't have nearly as much questions watching S1 as I have now.

Oh, and how nice that it took them only seven seasons to establish/confirm/reveal that characters are born with magic but still need to learn how to use it. Now, if they could just explain why Zelena was able to control her magic as a baby while other characters aren't able to use the magic they were born with, I'd appreciate it ;-)

That said, I am curious to find out how they'll break the curse and solve the Henry problem. And I am looking forward to seeing Regina and Zelena work together. I do enjoy them. (When I ignore the stunt Zelena pulled with Robin and that her daughter is a constant reminder).

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

That said, I am curious to find out how they'll break the curse and solve the Henry problem. And I am looking forward to seeing Regina and Zelena work together. I do enjoy them. (When I ignore the stunt Zelena pulled with Robin and that her daughter is a constant reminder).

With the Henry situation, the only way the problem can be solved is with someone taking Henry's poisoned heart. I can't see them finding a magical cure just in time to break the curse. For me, it's more of a question about who will sacrifice themselves. Again, my hope is Jacinda so we can get rid of the actress for good and not have to suffer her attempted romantic scenes with Henry or her attempted family scenes with Lucy, but I don't think she's selfless enough. Also, they're implying that the curse can only be broken by Henry/Jacinda's kiss, but I feel like it could easily go to any other couple, romantic or familial. 

[Mabinogia]

40 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

For me, it's more of a question about who will sacrifice themselves. Again, my hope is Jacinda

The writers have had enough time to see how poorly Jacinda has been received by a good portion of the audience so this would be the perfect way to course correct the show. Kill off Jacinda by making her a hero. This will keep their "true love" intact while getting rid of the pesky problem that is Jacinda. Henry could be a single dad, mirroring Regina his single mom (and Emma who was also his single mom). It could pave the way for a second chance at love, again like Regina, who got Robin after losing Daniel. (they do love repeating themselves so there's precedent). But this is all just wishful thinking on my part. I'm sure it will be something more like, if Lucy wishes really, really hard, she can have her family back. Or maybe as the ultimate redemption Victoria who was I'll sacrifice anything for my family, will once again sacrifice herself to save Lucy who isn't really her family, but she will feel some odd sense of responsibility since she killed Lucy's real grandmother. Blah blah. Yeah, my money is currently on Victoria who, now that her story was told, is kind of a useless character.

[Rumsy4]

It still doesn't explain why these idiots think breaking the curse means Henry will die. If they just give everyone the memory potion that Regina and Ivy seem to have bucket loads of, they can all just stay in Seattle, and nobody has to die. 

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It still doesn't explain why these idiots think breaking the curse means Henry will die. If they just give everyone the memory potion that Regina and Ivy seem to have bucket loads of, they can all just stay in Seattle, and nobody has to die. 

I don't think they have a whole bucket load of the potion. I remember Drizella saying that she only had that tiny vial left to wake Regina up. Presumably, Regina used the last of that small bottle to wake up Zelena, so they have no more memory potion. Though again, why they don't go to Storybrooke and make another potion, I guess they will never explain. Much like Regina's "don't ask me about timelines" line, her line about "we can't go to Storybrooke" line is just as vague. The only explanation they'd be able to give me that I'd buy is that HH and Storybrooke are in alternate worlds. And even then, that makes zero sense and I guess I still wouldn't be able to buy it. 

[Kktjones]

This is totally random, but my mind was wandering while on a conference call today, and I was thinking of a missed opportunity on this show (I know, right?). I'm really surprised they didn't have a good guy/hero fall in love with a bad guy/villain while both were cursed. It could definitely have made for some interesting drama when the curse broke and both people realized who they really were. I've seen it done in fan fiction where Hook was in S1 Storybrooke and he and Emma had a relationship. This actually seems like something right up their alley, and yet they didn't use it in S1 or S7.  

Edited December 19, 2017 by Kktjones

[Mitch]

19 hours ago, Kktjones said:

This is totally random, but my mind was wandering while on a conference call today, and I was thinking of a missed opportunity on this show (I know, right?). I'm really surprised they didn't have a good guy/hero fall in love with a bad guy/villain while both were cursed. It could definitely have made for some interesting drama when the curse broke and both people realized who they really were. I've seen it done in fan fiction where Hook was in S1 Storybrooke and he and Emma had a relationship. This actually seems like something right up their alley, and yet they didn't use it in S1 or S7.  

Because that would break from their formula and it would take creativity and be interesting..so..there you have it.

One of the many problems with this show is that that they can't get away from their formula ...a formula that worked in S1 and was okay through S3 but began to slow the story momentum since that time and is just a mess right now. Part of that formula is the ridiculous "heroes" and "villains" thing they lurve like a teddy bear.  Hinted at in S1 was that the characters could break free from their "role" once they were transported to his world..where fate had no control over them. Once the curse broke it was up to Regina and Rump to decided if they wanted to continue on their ways and Snow and the others theirs and outside of their goofy CGI world people could be a little of both a hero and a villain. They had a great opp with Driz to have a grey character to be in love with Henry, and how fitting that Henry, born in this world, but more wedded to the childish "hero" and "villain" label then even the fairytale people were...despite now being a supposed adult...would fall in love with someone he would consider a "villain." It would be a great chance for the character of Henry to grow the freak up and for the show to do so and ultimately to fulfill the promise of S1 where fairy tale characters break free from the page and screen and come to the "real" world. Driz would get her redemption through Henry and she would help him realize that he is living in the real world and despite its problems and complications,  it is "better" then a silly fantasy realm of magic and predestination.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Mitch

[CheshireCat]

On ‎18‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 9:55 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I don't think they have a whole bucket load of the potion. I remember Drizella saying that she only had that tiny vial left to wake Regina up. Presumably, Regina used the last of that small bottle to wake up Zelena, so they have no more memory potion. Though again, why they don't go to Storybrooke and make another potion, I guess they will never explain. Much like Regina's "don't ask me about timelines" line, her line about "we can't go to Storybrooke" line is just as vague. The only explanation they'd be able to give me that I'd buy is that HH and Storybrooke are in alternate worlds. And even then, that makes zero sense and I guess I still wouldn't be able to buy it. 

I'd certainly like to ask her about both... But I guess, Regina's just as confused about the timelines as the viewers are ;-)

On a more serious note, I wondered why they didn't go to Storybrooke to get magic. Is the town still shielded? If there is magic there, it would make sense, so they might need magic to get in? It would be fun though but I guess, we all know why it can't happen.

 

@Rumsy4  I think that giving everyone a memory potion would end in a repeat of the story Jacinda's mother and stepfather went through. She and Henry could not be together because true loves kiss would break the curse, wouldn't it? Of course, it would be a beginning. They could then all try and find a solution together.

I suppose, there's always the "get rid of Henry's heart and let Jacinda and Henry share a heart" possibility...

Edited December 21, 2017 by CheshireCat

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, CheshireCat said:

I suppose, there's always the "get rid of Henry's heart and let Jacinda and Henry share a heart" possibility...

Oh please! Like Jacinda is selfless enough to do that! 

But god, no way do I believe they'll go down that route. The show may be trying to pretend that Jacinda and Henry are like Snow and Charming, but with the negative backlash on Jacinda in general, I really believe they might find some other way. Maybe they won't kill Jacinda off, to our disappointment, but maybe they'll just literally switch Henry's heart with someone else's. 

4 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

On a more serious note, I wondered why they didn't go to Storybrooke to get magic. Is the town still shielded? If there is magic there, it would make sense, so they might need magic to get in? It would be fun though but I guess, we all know why it can't happen.

Because, according to Regina, "we obviously can't go to Storybrooke." Is that not reason enough? No? Really? You don't believe A&E when they say they got a plan and are the most awesome writers to ever have written? Huh. 

The thing is that the town still being shielded would be a somewhat decent excuse....especially if we learn that Emma and the other fairies decided to use their magic to shield it from Regina and Rumple in order to ensure the town remains happy and safe. But I doubt this reason was ever thought of while creating the season. 

[CheshireCat]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

Because, according to Regina, "we obviously can't go to Storybrooke." Is that not reason enough? No? Really? You don't believe A&E when they say they got a plan and are the most awesome writers to ever have written? Huh. 

 

Well, I do believe they have a plan. It just seems to be very confusing for everyone who isn't in on every detail (And I'm not sure that A&E are themselves. Some things they seem to make up on the spot which can easily be done with a fantasy show with magical elements but I do think it's lazy, too).

[Rumsy4]

28 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

@Rumsy4  I think that giving everyone a memory potion would end in a repeat of the story Jacinda's mother and stepfather went through. She and Henry could not be together because true loves kiss would break the curse, wouldn't it? Of course, it would be a beginning. They could then all try and find a solution together.

lt doesn't make any sense to me that TLK would break the curse and send everyone back to the Disenchanted Forest, but the writers keep changing the rules--so anything can happen. And the idea that Henry and Murderella are True Love is in itself laughable. They have a glowing pendant. That sounds like the Lion Tattoo 2.0. lol

At least if everyone got their memories back, it would be a level playing field. The memory-less characters are in more danger becasue they don't know who the actually "bad guys" are. Next time, Roni might not be around to throw poisoned cakes into the trash.

21 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

The thing is that the town still being shielded would be a somewhat decent excuse....especially if we learn that Emma and the other fairies decided to use their magic to shield it from Regina and Rumple in order to ensure the town remains happy and safe. 

Lol. That's probably what happened. Finally Snow White and Prince Charming got their Happy Ending despite themselves. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Mitch]

16 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Oh please! Like Jacinda is selfless enough to do that! 

But god, no way do I believe they'll go down that route. The show may be trying to pretend that Jacinda and Henry are like Snow and Charming, but with the negative backlash on Jacinda in general, I really believe they might find some other way. Maybe they won't kill Jacinda off, to our disappointment, but maybe they'll just literally switch Henry's heart with someone else's. 

Because, according to Regina, "we obviously can't go to Storybrooke." Is that not reason enough? No? Really? You don't believe A&E when they say they got a plan and are the most awesome writers to ever have written? Huh. 

The thing is that the town still being shielded would be a somewhat decent excuse....especially if we learn that Emma and the other fairies decided to use their magic to shield it from Regina and Rumple in order to ensure the town remains happy and safe. But I doubt this reason was ever thought of while creating the season. 

But why don't people leave Storybrooke? Emma and Hook or Snow and Charms NEVER want to take a vacation or a trip somewhere (yes, Henry, you idiot, there is a whole world where you could be a" hero" on your own by I don't know, helping Hurricane victims, feeding the poor, starting a school in Africa...) You want to be stuck with the same people..which seems to be about 30 residents...forever? You never get sick of eating/drinking/celebrating at Granny's or the Rabbit Hole???

Drizella doesn't think that Emma and Hook might not want to visit Seattle or San Francisco...and with the past history of all the fairy tale characters bumping into each other in the "real" world....( Emma and Neal literally...) why is that not happening now?

[CheshireCat]

17 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

lt doesn't make any sense to me that TLK would break the curse and send everyone back to the Disenchanted Forest, but the writers keep changing the rules--so anything can happen

Breaking the curse probably wouldn't send them back but once Hook destroyed the Dark Ones in S5 his injury returned, too. Granted, one could argue that that was because there was magic in Storybrooke but I assume that breaking the curse would also bring back Henry's poisened heart?! Even if it didn't, it would mean that Henry could never return to Storybrooke to see Emma, she'd always have to visit him if she wanted to see him. (And I'm not going to think about the fact that we're supposed to believe that she has had not desire to be in touch with Henry and hasn't realized that something is wrong. Of course, we don't know how much time really passed between the curse and now and I'm not sure E&A actually know. It's one of the things that's bothering me in this season, that they seem to sacrifice a lot of the details to make this curse and an adult Henry etc happen).

 

 

17 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

 And the idea that Henry and Murderella are True Love is in itself laughable. They have a glowing pendant.

I think the pendant didn't tell them that they're in love, I think it was meant to reveal the love they already felt. However, I'm with everyone else, they lack chemistry. (Although, I did think that it has gotten better in the last few episodes)

 

17 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

At least if everyone got their memories back, it would be a level playing field.

Agreed.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Breaking the curse probably wouldn't send them back but once Hook destroyed the Dark Ones in S5 his injury returned, too.

That was because being a Dark One was what was keeping Hook alive. When he destroyed the Dark Ones by sucking all the darkness into the sword and then destroyed the darkness by having Emma run the sword through him, he was no longer a Dark One, so he was no longer immortal and the injury came back. I'm not sure that magic in Storybrooke would have had anything to do with it. Dark One or not, he'd have not been immortal outside Storybrooke, but then the wound was magical, so maybe he could have lived if they'd got him across the town line and then stitched up before he bled out, but then he might not have ever been able to return to Storybrooke or any magical world.

But none of that really seems to apply to what's going on with Henry, where it seems to be that it's a magical poison and so he was saved by going to a non-magical place, but I don't see how that would be affected by the memory curse breaking, unless someone drops a True Love potion in a well. Or else maybe they were using Henry as a hostage, and as long as Regina cooperates, he keeps getting the antidote slipped to him, but the moment the curse breaks, they stop with the antidote, but there's been no indication of that being what's happening.

[KingOfHearts]

What if a villain did a "happy ending" Dark Curse, where everyone is happy and has fake memories of time passing normally? That way, they wouldn't expect anything different and the villain could go undetected. But, as things progress, the heroes begin to see small discrepancies. Ivy sort of did this with Victoria thinking she had cast the curse.

[jhlipton]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

What if a villain did a "happy ending" Dark Curse, where everyone is happy and has fake memories of time passing normally? That way, they wouldn't expect anything different and the villain could go undetected. But, as things progress, the heroes begin to see small discrepancies. Ivy sort of did this with Victoria thinking she had cast the curse.

That's WAY too subtle for TSTW

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

What if a villain did a "happy ending" Dark Curse, where everyone is happy and has fake memories of time passing normally? That way, they wouldn't expect anything different and the villain could go undetected. But, as things progress, the heroes begin to see small discrepancies.

I wrote a book along those lines -- the villains were trying to get troublesome people out of the way, so they sent them to a place that was an idealized version of a city, like something out of a romantic comedy movie, with their memories and identities altered to fit that world, and they were basically living out their fantasies. That made it the perfect prison, since it meant the prisoners had no desire to escape. They didn't want it to be fake. Then there were discrepancies they couldn't help but notice, and they ran into people they weren't supposed to run into but that their true selves knew.

It wouldn't work as a punishment, just as a way of keeping people out of the way so a scheme could be carried out without interference, but Storybrooke would be a good place to put people in an idyllic small town fantasy. Our main characters have been struggling so much for so long, that if they were made to think of Storybrooke as some kind of peaceful Mayberry-type place where everything's just the way they want it, they probably wouldn't be motivated to notice what's wrong or do anything about it.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I wrote a book along those lines -- the villains were trying to get troublesome people out of the way, so they sent them to a place that was an idealized version of a city, like something out of a romantic comedy movie, with their memories and identities altered to fit that world, and they were basically living out their fantasies. That made it the perfect prison, since it meant the prisoners had no desire to escape. They didn't want it to be fake. Then there were discrepancies they couldn't help but notice, and they ran into people they weren't supposed to run into but that their true selves knew.

It wouldn't work as a punishment, just as a way of keeping people out of the way so a scheme could be carried out without interference, but Storybrooke would be a good place to put people in an idyllic small town fantasy. Our main characters have been struggling so much for so long, that if they were made to think of Storybrooke as some kind of peaceful Mayberry-type place where everything's just the way they want it, they probably wouldn't be motivated to notice what's wrong or do anything about it.

After reading your post, I'm pretty sure we both just described The Good Place to some capacity.

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I really liked Frankenstein's World Without Color, the Mr. Darcy cameo in OUATIW, and the concept of the Land of Untold Stories. I just wish they did more with these things.

I would have liked more literary characters as well, though I found the whole concept of "Land of Untold Stories" to be ill-defined and improperly named (it was more like "Land of the Pause Button").  Though really, "Once" didn't even do European fairytales justice (Bluebeard, Thumbelina, etc.). They could have done a mash-up of A Thousand and One Nights along with Aladdin.  They could have explored Chinese mythology with Mulan.    The list just goes on and on.  And of course, there was their mistake of wasting some fairy tales on one-offs.  Both Cinderella and Rapunzel were one-offs that they're basically trying (and failing) to flesh out now in Season 7. But the show is right on one count - one does need to be careful what one wishes for.  We wished for more Cinderella/Tremaine after "The Other Shoe" and we got Murderella & the Pathetic Steplosers instead.  We wished for Tangled and got Mother Gothel pretending to be Tangled's Rapunzel to rape someone and then Rapunzel becoming a psycho murderer.  

Edited December 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

They could have done a mash-up of A Thousand and One Nights along with Aladdin.  They could have explored Chinese mythology with Mulan.

It is sad how underexplored both of these "foreign" stories were. Granted, I gave up the show during Aladdin, so maybe they did more with that? But Mulan was just some back up player who happened to be named after a famous character. She barely had a storyline. She was the Tiana of Original Recipe Once. There to his some ethnic quota and support another character while the creators could say "see, we did Mulan!"

A Mulan based story could have been awesome! Have some kind of dragon demon threaten Storybrooke, get into some Chinese mythology, maybe get further into the whole samurai world. They could have tied it to that Chinese guy Regina went to that time in New York or something (sorry, this show confuses me to the point I can't remember many storylines). They could even have tied it somehow to Maleficent's dragon if they wanted. Could have redeemed Maleficent if they wanted by having her side with the good guys to fight dragon vs dragon. Anything other than her pining after Aurora and doing little else

[KingOfHearts]

One of my favorite quotes on the show is one from Regina in 3B: "I don't care if the Lollipop Guild is protecting her." It was clever when most of the EF characters thought Oz was fictional, adding a meta-like layer of depth in the multiverse. What I found odd, however, was that Belle knew it was real because she "read about it in a book once". Was she referring to Frank L. Baum's book, or some other book in EF that references it as a real place? Then Regina said she knew it was real as well, and yet had never heard of Zelena? Oz even had a door in Jefferson's hat, and it seems that it's really easy to get to. (Zelena, Robin, Will Scarlet, Red, Mulan, and Snow had all been there at various times. Glinda got banished from there with a simple handwave from Zelena.) It's pretty far-fetched that someone as hellbent on revenge as Zelena would never visit her sister. It's also never explained why she never paid a visit to Cora or came to Storybrooke after the curse broke.

It's pretty laughable that 3B depends on the "walls between realms" to work, when in the same arc Walsh is an exception.

Edited December 23, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I still think it's ridiculous that Zelena could just watch any moment in the past as if it there were surveillance cameras everywhere.  If it was that easy, they could just watch every evil villain's sob story before it's revealed.

And then there was the Season 6 finale when it was revealed Jefferson had multiple hats.  Did he leave one in Oz for kicks?  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

And then there was the Season 6 finale when it was revealed Jefferson had multiple hats.  Did he leave one in Oz for kicks?  

The very reason he even became the Mad Hatter was that he couldn't make multiple hats. It's entirely possible he just didn't have what he needed in Wonderland, but the retcon totally undermines his character's arc. But you know what really doesn't make sense? Cora needed him to make a hat so she could get to Regina, yet she was able to walk through a looking glass, and when that didn't work, she just borrowed the White Rabbit. As we saw in OUATIW, it's pretty easy to traverse realms from Wonderland. (As it is with Oz.)

Edited December 23, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I was rereading an early CS fanfic which has quite a bit of the Charming family as well. It reminded me of S1/S2A Snow, and how awesome she used to be. Trust A&E to first turn Snow White into a badass and cool woman, and then flip it and change her into a boring frump. 

[Camera One]

We've talked about how easy it became to go to the Land Without Magic, but it's a good point that the ease of travel between the magical realms like Enchanted Forest, Wonderland and Oz became even easier.  Makes you wonder why Regina even needed Jefferson. 

And then in Season 7, it became outright ridiculous that Wish Realm Hook could just go to a completely different universe's Disenchanted Forest, and then easily go back to tell them he's not coming back.  That's 3 trips.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Camera One

[Free]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

We've talked about how easy it became to go to the Land Without Magic, but it's a good point that the ease of travel between the magical realms like Enchanted Forest, Wonderland and Oz became even easier.  Makes you wonder why Regina even needed Jefferson. 

And then in Season 7, it became outright ridiculous that Wish Realm Hook could just go to a completely different universe's Disenchanted Forest, and then easily go back to tell them he's not coming back.  That's 3 trips.

It really makes all the curses completely pointless with how easy it is to realm hop.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I still think it's ridiculous that Zelena could just watch any moment in the past as if it there were surveillance cameras everywhere.  If it was that easy, they could just watch every evil villain's sob story before it's revealed.

She could punish her enemies by making them watch the "Bleeding Through" flashbacks on repeat. They'd probably die of boredom.

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

the retcon totally undermines his character's arc.

And this is news, how, exactly?  (Prime offender: Hook killing David's father)

[CheshireCat]

On ‎22‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 2:20 AM, Camera One said:

I would have liked more literary characters as well, though I found the whole concept of "Land of Untold Stories" to be ill-defined and improperly named (it was more like "Land of the Pause Button").  Though really, "Once" didn't even do European fairytales justice (Bluebeard, Thumbelina, etc.). They could have done a mash-up of A Thousand and One Nights along with Aladdin.  They could have explored Chinese mythology with Mulan.    The list just goes on and on.  And of course, there was their mistake of wasting some fairy tales on one-offs.  Both Cinderella and Rapunzel were one-offs that they're basically trying (and failing) to flesh out now in Season 7. But the show is right on one count - one does need to be careful what one wishes for.  We wished for more Cinderella/Tremaine after "The Other Shoe" and we got Murderella & the Pathetic Steplosers instead.  We wished for Tangled and got Mother Gothel pretending to be Tangled's Rapunzel to rape someone and then Rapunzel becoming a psycho murderer.  

I agree, they could have done a lot more with a lot of the fairy tales. I think they should have introduced fewer fairy tale characters and then spent more time on them and I think they should have stuck to fairy tales and not include legends. I also think that they had mix-and-matched the characters so much at the beginning that it was hard to then change things later. For example, there was a Genie already, so they took him out of Aladdin and placed him with Snow White etc. Same for Rumplestilskin and technically, Cinderella. I think they did a good job with Peter Pan and the Queens of Evil. But I wish they would have stuck more to one version, either mix-and-match or go with arcs like the Pan arc and don't introduce villains we have never heard of (like Ingrid).

I also think it would have been good had they started to explore other realms much sooner. Wonderland worked. A) it was there from the beginning and B) we all know about Wonderland due to Alice in Wonderland. But "the land of the untold stories" and the "wish realm" got introduced way too late for it to make sense now. Same goes for the alternate version. In theory, I think they found a good explanation for all of the blank books Henry found. But I would have liked to see that this is what the books meant earlier. Just a hint dropped her and there. I'm not under the impression that they already knew what the books meant when they introduce them and I always felt that there was only one Cinderella, one Rapunzel, one Snow White etc and that what we were seeing was the "what really happened".

But there were few occasions throughout the show when I thought that they introduced the element without having made up their mind about what it means.

 

On ‎21‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 4:55 PM, Shanna Marie said:

That was because being a Dark One was what was keeping Hook alive. When he destroyed the Dark Ones by sucking all the darkness into the sword and then destroyed the darkness by having Emma run the sword through him, he was no longer a Dark One, so he was no longer immortal and the injury came back.

But didn't it also break the curse?

 

On ‎21‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 4:55 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I'm not sure that magic in Storybrooke would have had anything to do with it. Dark One or not, he'd have not been immortal outside Storybrooke, but then the wound was magical, so maybe he could have lived if they'd got him across the town line and then stitched up before he bled out, but then he might not have ever been able to return to Storybrooke or any magical world.

That is the question, I think. We don't really know if he had been immortal outside of Storybrooke, do we? We also don't know if Rumple was immortal outside of Storybrooke, right? As far as I recall, that was never established. All that was established was that he would have lost his memory without the shawl but that was due to the curse. But since magic normally doesn't really work in the real world and immortality is magical, I'm not sure that he would have been immortal. And thinking about the most recent season, I thought that the bullet could have killed Rumple.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

 We also don't know if Rumple was immortal outside of Storybrooke, right? As far as I recall, that was never established.

It was pretty clearly established in S4 when he needed the elixir to save him or he would have died in the hospital in New York. If Robin had just let him die, a whole lot of crap that everyone experienced, including Robin's own death, would have been prevented. 

Also, I believe that there was a hint of Rumpel's lack of immortality in S2 when he was in the airport and freaking out about it all. He smashed his hand against the wall and was unable to heal it without magic. A mortal wound that can't be healed would kill him. Magic was what was maintaining his immortality. It seems that his magical healing also disappeared once he crossed the town line, so he began limping immediately after Belle forced him out in 4A.

[CheshireCat]

21 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

It was pretty clearly established in S4 when he needed the elixir to save him or he would have died in the hospital in New York.

Right, thanks. Forgot about that (probably because I fast-forwarded through most of the episode).

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It was pretty clearly established in S4 when he needed the elixir to save him or he would have died in the hospital in New York. If Robin had just let him die, a whole lot of crap that everyone experienced, including Robin's own death, would have been prevented. 

This is one of the parts of the show that drives me crazy. Why would anyone save Rumple at this point? Robin who was once tortured by Rumple? Why wouldn't he let him die? He burned all of his bridges. He deserved to die. But of course Rumple gets saved.   

[Mabinogia]

I think they are trying to show that forgiveness is a core trait of the good guys however, what they are really showing is that willful ignorance and stupidity are core traits of the good guys. It is nice of the heroes to give the villains a chance at redemption. I believe that people do deserve a second chance. It's when they get unlimited chances that it gets hard to root for the good guys, who are clearly morons who kind of deserve whatever the villain does to them. 

The trouble is, the writers like Rumple as the villain, as they should, he was a good villain back in the day, but they also want him as their Beast, the poor gentle soul trapped inside a monster. They can't have both without this constant flip flopping that ruins both parts of the character. 

When the Beast storyline first happened I thought Rumple would become a woobie because they wouldn't shit all over the Belle/Beast love story. I was so naïve back then. Unlike Snow and the Gang, I learned my lesson. I don't trust Rumple to do a single unselfish thing any more than I trust the writers to tell a cohesive story. 

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I think they are trying to show that forgiveness is a core trait of the good guys however, what they are really showing is that willful ignorance and stupidity are core traits of the good guys. It is nice of the heroes to give the villains a chance at redemption. I believe that people do deserve a second chance. It's when they get unlimited chances that it gets hard to root for the good guys, who are clearly morons who kind of deserve whatever the villain does to them. 

The trouble is, the writers like Rumple as the villain, as they should, he was a good villain back in the day, but they also want him as their Beast, the poor gentle soul trapped inside a monster. They can't have both without this constant flip flopping that ruins both parts of the character. 

When the Beast storyline first happened I thought Rumple would become a woobie because they wouldn't shit all over the Belle/Beast love story. I was so naïve back then. Unlike Snow and the Gang, I learned my lesson. I don't trust Rumple to do a single unselfish thing any more than I trust the writers to tell a cohesive story. 

I thought he would too. In the beginning Rumple had an interesting backstory he became the Dark One to save his son. But ended up losing him because the power went to his head. He spend all of his time finding his son. Manipulating everyone in order to get to LWM and find his son. They sprinkled Rumple's regret through season one. Rumple seemed surprised by Belle. That anyone would actually love him and see pass the façade. He's also afraid to lose his power because he needs it to find his son. It seemed like they were moving to redeem him. But then they made the same mistake with Rumple that they did with Regina. Underminding his back story by revealing all of the other ways to get to LWM. The double down on all of his crimes. He reunites with Bae. That reunion falls flat. One conversation Bae doesn't want anything to do with him so Rumple...drops it. Really? After centuries of looking for his son? Why was so he so happy when Belle became Lacey? Belle, he liked your fake memory so much he almost didn't want to return you to normal. Also, he keeps knocking you out so he can go off on murder sprees. Rumple goes off to be the villain in season four for seemingly no reason other then he wants to. Him finding a way to steal all the Dark One power in season five? Constantly betraying the Heroes. Being the Hero for killing his mother, which wanted to anyways. There's zero reason for anyone to trust him, believe in him or keep him alive. They destroyed everything interesting about his character.                

[Mabinogia]

43 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Underminding his back story by revealing all of the other ways to get to LWM.

They really did make Rumple look like the stupidest man on the face of the earth. Really, you waited 28 or so years to enact this ridiculous curse plot when there are about a dozen other ways to get to LWM that take a blink of an eye. haha, no wonder Bae wanted nothing to do with you. He realized you are a too dumb to live. 

And yeah, the desperate, I will burn down the world to find my son, plot was dropped like a hot potato. Guess once he found Belle he didn't need bae's love anymore, which proves it was yet another selfish pursuit for Rumple which had nothing to do with his son and everything to do with Rumple taking what Rumple wants at any cost. 

[Camera One]

Remember, Bae was evil personified as a child.  Who cares about destroying his entire backstory to develop the new son Gideon.  It provides even less motivation for devoted fans to attach themselves to new characters, since the old one will simply be sacrificed on the altar of the new one.  And as many have pointed out, where the hell is Gideon now?  Weaver hasn't mentioned him once.  Out of sight out of mind?  Zelena is supposed to be a devoted mother, yet she doesn't mention Robin once to Regina in the present-day once she "wakes".  

[Shanna Marie]

18 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

 

On 12/21/2017 at 3:55 PM, Shanna Marie said:

That was because being a Dark One was what was keeping Hook alive. When he destroyed the Dark Ones by sucking all the darkness into the sword and then destroyed the darkness by having Emma run the sword through him, he was no longer a Dark One, so he was no longer immortal and the injury came back.

But didn't it also break the curse?

What curse? Dark Hook cast the Dark Curse as a transportation thing (which means it was entirely unnecessary and there were other ways to travel between worlds, but I guess they wanted an excuse to get rid of Merlin because otherwise things might have been too easy). The memory part of it was that Emma captured the memories in dreamcatchers so no one would remember what happened once they were back in Storybrooke. The memories had already been restored when everyone found the dreamcatchers before the great Dark One showdown. Or was there some other curse you were referring to?

[Camera One]

That reminds me... why doesn't everyone else use dreamcatchers?  

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

What curse?

People turned into trees when they crossed the Townline. That probably broke when Hook died.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

That reminds me... why doesn't everyone else use dreamcatchers?  

That’s so Season 5. A&E are on to the next deux ex machina genius idea.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

That reminds me... why doesn't everyone else use dreamcatchers?  

Or you know - basic journals. Do the curses erase their phone data too? I thought it was pretty ridiculous when Rumple deleted Hook's voicemail. Does magic know how technology works? It's not as simple as removing ink from a page. It would be interesting if technology could one-up magic from time to time, echoing the "science vs. magic" theme that S2 botched up.

Edited December 26, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[daxx]

56 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Or you know - basic journals. Do the curses erase their phone data too? I thought it was pretty ridiculous when Rumple deleted Hook's voicemail. Does magic know how technology works? It's not as simple as removing ink from a page. It would be interesting if technology could one-up magic from time to time, echoing the "science vs. magic" theme that S2 botched up.

I was actually hoping that would happen and that Emma would get the voicemail after her phone updated or something.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, daxx said:

I was actually hoping that would happen and that Emma would get the voicemail after her phone updated or something.

Everything about that plot line makes me so mad even now. 

Storybrooke is the Land of Chekov’s Misfires.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Rumsy4