The Big Bads: Discuss the Master, Spike and Dru, Angelus, the Mayor, Adam, Glory, Warren and the First

[VCRTracking]

Seeing a 20th anniversary panel gathering of Buffy's villains at the Denver Comic Con gave me the idea to start a discussion thread for all of them. Here's an article and video of the event:

BUFFY’s Big Bads Celebrate Their 20th Anniversary At Denver Comic Con

 

[Willowy]

Faith and The Mayor ftw!

[CletusMusashi]

If we're only talking big bads and their top henches, not minor bads like Olaf or the Gorch brothers, then Faith and The Mayor win Best Evil Team, hands down. I guess I'd rank the biggies, in order, as :

1: Mayor and Faith

2. Spike and Drusilla (much better than Angelus.)

3. Adam and The Initiative. I liked them.

4. The Master and his cult. Cliched, but well done, espcially if you include Darla.

5. Dark Willow. Shitty buildup, and shitty finish, but she did have a fun rampage.

6. Glory and Reverand Talkypants. My favorite thing about them was the comedy relief minions.

Least favorite thing: The hamhanded addition of Dawn.

7. The Worst Evil. A villain so needlessly and gratuitously loquacious that, were it created today, it would be called Ghost Negan.

Edited July 27, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[Willowy]

Agreed on all but Adam and The Initiative. Couldn't get out of that season fast enough. 

[Petunia13]

On 7/27/2017 at 11:55 AM, Willowy said:

Agreed on all but Adam and The Initiative. Couldn't get out of that season fast enough. 

Yea they weren't for me. The thing that saved that season was seeing the gangs growing pains after HS and the comic relief. 

[Willowy]

1 hour ago, Petunia13 said:

Yea they weren't for me. The thing that saved that season was seeing the gangs growing pains after HS and the comic relief. 

And I did love Vamp Sunday. Also when the Core Four came together to defeat Adam through Buffy. Her changing those bullets to doves was cheesy, but it was still WAY cool to see her wield that power after being flummoxed for most of the season.

[slf]

Spike & Drusilla were my favorites when they were introduced. They were hilarious, charismatic, sexy, had a fabulous dynamic with each other and with other characters. Angelus was a terrific villain in season two and Passions remains one of my favorite episodes because of him. Killing Ms. Calendar and putting her in Giles' bed was heart-wrenching. The Mayor would also be in my top 3; he was hilarious and it was fascinating to me how he genuinely loved Faith. 

I also preferred a lot of the lesser villains and shades-of-grey characters as opposed to certified Big Bads. The Watchers, for example, especially when they had Giles rob Buffy of her powers and lock her in a house with a vampire. Or Ethan, Giles' old friend, who was such a shit-stirrer but not out to wreck the world (that I recall). That's more interesting to me than the ones who are one-dimensional, all about "I want to destroy the world and end everything." I mean, you always know those guys are going to be defeated.

Hated, hated, hated, Warren and The Initiative. Dull villains with no smarts played by dull actors with no charisma. 

[Perfect Xero]

Best: The First Evil: Great as a One Off bad guy in Season 3, who Buffy defeats and then mocks the uselessness of.

Worst: The First Evil: Awful as a Season Long big bad in S7 who pushes Buffy and her friends to their limit because they aren't smart enough to create a "high fives upon entering a room" policy.

I think that Glory was the biggest missed opportunity of the 'big bads', and always thought that there was so much more that they could have done with her and the rather unique situation that brought her into conflict with Buffy.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Perfect Xero

[Glory]

On 8/1/2017 at 1:27 PM, Perfect Xero said:

 

I think that Glory was the biggest missed opportunity of the 'big bads', and always thought that there was so much more that they could have done with her and the rather unique situation that brought her into conflict with Buffy.

Agreed. 100% As is probably obvious by my screen name. :) 

I think I just loved Claire Kramer, as I'm looking back on that season. But I actually enjoyed very many episodes in season 5. Family, Fool for Love, Checkpoint, The Gift. 

[Smad]

My favorites are the villains of the early Seasons, at least back then they seemed to know what they wanted the villains to be. So S2's mini bads in Dru/Spike and big bad Angelus were my fave. Angelus was probably the most personal big bad Buffy (the character) has ever had. The Mayor was just awesome, all thanks to the actor. His mix of perky and menacing was great. Third would be Fruitpunch Mouth, just because he managed to kill Buffy 3 freaking times. I mean seriously, the other 'big bads' (including a God) didn't even manage to kill Buffy once. How lame are they? Next would be Glory I guess, the first of the lame big bads. Hangs around uselessly for half a Season and gets nothing done. AtS did Gods so much better. Glory is nothing more than a copy of early Seasons BtVS Cordy, not exactly my idea of a God. Then there is Dark Willow who belongs in a Sunday morning cartoon and not a prime time tv show. 'Fly my pretty, fly', urgh. The Lamest Evil and Adam can share the last spot on the list. Won't even bother going int why.

[secnarf]

15 hours ago, Smad said:

 Third would be Fruitpunch Mouth, just because he managed to kill Buffy 3 freaking times. I mean seriously, the other 'big bads' (including a God) didn't even manage to kill Buffy once. How lame are they?

How did the Master kill Buffy three times? She only ever died twice...

[Jack Shaftoe]

15 hours ago, secnarf said:

How did the Master kill Buffy three times? She only ever died twice...

Well, he did kill Buffy in a living nightmare in Nightmares and in an alternate universe in The Wish.

[Smad]

18 hours ago, secnarf said:

How did the Master kill Buffy three times? She only ever died twice...

Nightmares, Prophecy Girls and The Wish. That's 3 by my count. So yeah, he's actually the biggest bad ass big bad of the whole show.

[secnarf]

Ah okay. I don't count Nightmares, since it was only a manifestation of her nightmare - IMO that's like saying that she dreamt she died, therefore she died, or The Wish, because it was a totally different Buffy and an alternate universe.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, secnarf said:

Ah okay. I don't count Nightmares, since it was only a manifestation of her nightmare - IMO that's like saying that she dreamt she died, therefore she died, or The Wish, because it was a totally different Buffy and an alternate universe.

It doesn't matter that Buffy from The Wish is a different Buffy, she still died at the hands of the Master. And Nightmares weren't just dreams. Those dreams became reality, that was the whole point of the episode. Buffy didn't dream her death by Master, just that he was out (because the Master tells us that) from underground.

[secnarf]

24 minutes ago, Smad said:

It doesn't matter that Buffy from The Wish is a different Buffy, she still died at the hands of the Master. And Nightmares weren't just dreams. Those dreams became reality, that was the whole point of the episode. Buffy didn't dream her death by Master, just that he was out (because the Master tells us that) from underground.

Well, obviously we view it differently, but I personally don't count them.

[Oholibamah]

It's been a while since I watched it so my reasoning is hazy, but I consider it more thematically satisfying for Buffy herself to be the Big Bad in Season 6. Warren obviously graduates to a Grade A POS by the end, but the Trio are little more than inconvenient pests for most of the season. Meanwhile, Buffy is her own worst enemy throughout, and her true battle is finding the will to participate in life again. 

[Hostile17]

I know this is an unpopular opinion but

1.  The Trio

2. Glory

3. Mayor Wilkins

4. Angelus

5. Tie for Adam/Initiative, First Evil, and The Master

Keep in mind, this is if I only choose one big bad per season, because some seasons had more than one. (Warren, Dark Willow, Spike, Caleb, etc.)

As you can probably tell from my list, I liked the more funny villains. I know a lot of people don't like The Trio, but I love Andrew, and I think not so evil characters trying to be evil is hilarious (Like Harmony). I didn't really like the season four big bad (Adam) because he wasn't established until very late in the season, and in my opinion wasn't very threatening. The Master was just kind of boring, and the First Evil was not only confusing, but kind of random. I am also kind of basing my list off of the order of my favorite seasons. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:29 PM, Oholibamah said:

It's been a while since I watched it so my reasoning is hazy, but I consider it more thematically satisfying for Buffy herself to be the Big Bad in Season 6. Warren obviously graduates to a Grade A POS by the end, but the Trio are little more than inconvenient pests for most of the season. Meanwhile, Buffy is her own worst enemy throughout, and her true battle is finding the will to participate in life again. 

That's an interesting way to look at it, that this was an internal battle (shades of that too in s7) within her. You think of the mooted idea of Buffy being transformed into a vamp and being the big bad for the season. 

On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:38 AM, Hostile17 said:

I know this is an unpopular opinion but

1.  The Trio

2. Glory

3. Mayor Wilkins

4. Angelus

5. Tie for Adam/Initiative, First Evil, and The Master

Keep in mind, this is if I only choose one big bad per season, because some seasons had more than one. (Warren, Dark Willow, Spike, Caleb, etc.)

As you can probably tell from my list, I liked the more funny villains. I know a lot of people don't like The Trio, but I love Andrew, and I think not so evil characters trying to be evil is hilarious (Like Harmony). I didn't really like the season four big bad (Adam) because he wasn't established until very late in the season, and in my opinion wasn't very threatening. The Master was just kind of boring, and the First Evil was not only confusing, but kind of random. I am also kind of basing my list off of the order of my favorite seasons. 

Interesting, The Trio had potential but it was never fully realised, s6 was such a dour event. Adam was never intended to be the Big Bad but when Lindsey Crouse left early he was forced to step up. 

[lembergwatcher]

I'm not sure we can call Spike and Dru Big Bads and I can't quite understand what's Warren even doing in the "super villains" list.

The First is a pussy and Glory is an annoying socialite, too dumb to be "goddess" actually.

Adam appears to be the love child of Moloch and Maggie Walsh after they got drunk at some party.

The Master looks too much like a classical horror movies character IMO.

So my choice would be Angelus (his 1998 manifestation, not that annoying prick from Angel's fourth season) and The Mayor (yeah, I know, Wilkins is overrated, but he's still quite interesting character to me).

Edited December 17, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Spike and Dru (combined) were the Head Vampire in Charge for 10 episodes of S2; Angel only was King of the Mountain for the final 9.  Obviously Angel was better (since the gruesome twosome yielded the floor to him with little resistance), but Spike/Dru did have their turn at bat.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:50 AM, lembergwatcher said:

I'm not sure we can call Spike and Dru Big Bads and I can't quite understand what's Warren even doing in the "super villains" list.

The First is a pussy and Glory is an annoying socialite, too dumb to be "goddess" actually.

Adam appears to be the love child of Moloch and Maggie Walsh after they got drunk at some party.

The Master looks too much like a classical horror movies character IMO.

So my choice would be Angelus (his 1998 manifestation, not that annoying prick from Angel's fourth season) and The Mayor (yeah, I know, Wilkins is overrated, but he's still quite interesting character to me).

Warren is pretty super, he and the others have the Hellmouth Genius affect going for them. You don't have to be smart to be a goddess unless you're Athena. The whole point of The Master was that he WAS the traditional vamp villain but we weren't going to take that anymore, the whole point of Buffy.

[lembergwatcher]

1 minute ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Warren is pretty super

Yes, he is. In the screwed-up realities of Dawnverse. However, back when Buffy was truly great, this "Hellmouth genius" wouldn't have stod a chance against the Scoobies for more than one episode.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:23 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Yes, he is. In the screwed-up realities of Dawnverse. However, back when Buffy was truly great, this "Hellmouth genius" wouldn't have stod a chance against the Scoobies for more than one episode.

I doubt the Dawnster had much effect on the nerds who were already up to mischief before she arrived. The whole point of the trio was that they were useless as supervillains, the real threat came from within.  

[lembergwatcher]

Question. Which one of the Big Bads is the dumbest in your opinion? My Top Three include:

• "The First Evil" (its low IQ is kinda obvious, don'tcha think?);
• Glory (really "not the brightest god in the heavens", as it turned out);
• Angelus (the guy's a true monster but he failed to kill Buffy when he had a chance one too many times).

So who are the "dumb and the dumber" among the Big Bads from your POV? Only Big Bads are allowed, not some lame, half-assed subvillains like Caleb or Warren.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Question. Which one of the Big Bads is the dumbest in your opinion? My Top Three include:

• "The First Evil" (its low IQ is kinda obvious, don'tcha think?);
• Glory (really "not the brightest god in the heavens", as it turned out);
• Angelus (the guy's a true monster but he failed to kill Buffy when he had a chance one too many times).

So who are the "dumb and the dumber" among the Big Bads from your POV? Only Big Bads are allowed, not some lame, half-assed subvillains like Caleb or Warren.

Glory, good thing she was so pretty

[Halting Hex]

Maggie Walsh got spiked from behind while soliloquizing to the "son" she didn't even realize was awake.  (Seriously, how does Adam even get off the table without her hearing him?  Stealthy he's not, I wouldn't think.)  Book-smarts don't mean you can't be fucking stupid, after all.

Speaking of which…Dick Wilkins squeeeeezed his long-sought demon form through the tightest corridors of Hellmouth High, running himself head-on into a fatally explosive trap.  And for what?  To "get [Faith's knife] back?"

Well, gee, Your Honor…how are you gonna do that, exactly?  You're a giant snake now!  YOU DON'T HAVE ANY HANDS!  Buffy could have just laid the knife on her seat and said "here you go, Faith would have wanted you to have this" and you couldn't have picked it up!  Sheesh.

(Imagines the Quad deserted except for Snake-Mayor flailing around, trying again and again to somehow snout Faith's knife into the air and balance it on his head or wedge it between his jaw and his neck or something and roaring with frustration, while Buffy just sits and watches and laughs her ass off.

Quote

WILKINS (impotent rage):  Shut up!  This isn't funny!

BUFFY (somehow eating popcorn, now): Depends where you're sitting, I guess.  Come on, don't quit now!  I'm sure you'll get it, eventually.

WILKINS:  Really?

BUFFY:  No.

Heh.)

[lembergwatcher]

Yes, but Dick Wilkins is neither god nor the "First Evil" so his stupidity is more or less expectable.

[Perfect Xero]

Glory is the smartest big bad. She lays low and draws minimal attention to herself. Has a plan/motivation that actually makes sense. And actually wants to cause as little damage/chaos as possible.

The dumbest villains are the knights who didn't just let her use the key to go home so she could stop being forced to share her body with some guy and sucking mental energy out of random people just to exist, and turned the Key into Buffy's sister because they had some vague idea that the key could possibly be used for good somehow someday.

Maybe the good it could have done would have been sending the powerful Hell God back to her home dimension.

[Halting Hex]

Yes, but with Glory sent home and the Key dispersed and no longer in Dawn-shaped form, who would invent the peanut-butter-and-bologna quesadilla?  Have to look at the big picture, remember.

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Maggie Walsh got spiked from behind while soliloquizing to the "son" she didn't even realize was awake.  (Seriously, how does Adam even get off the table without her hearing him?  Stealthy he's not, I wouldn't think.)  Book-smarts don't mean you can't be fucking stupid, after all.

Speaking of which…Dick Wilkins squeeeeezed his long-sought demon form through the tightest corridors of Hellmouth High, running himself head-on into a fatally explosive trap.  And for what?  To "get [Faith's knife] back?"

Well, gee, Your Honor…how are you gonna do that, exactly?  You're a giant snake now!  YOU DON'T HAVE ANY HANDS!  Buffy could have just laid the knife on her seat and said "here you go, Faith would have wanted you to have this" and you couldn't have picked it up!  Sheesh.

(Imagines the Quad deserted except for Snake-Mayor flailing around, trying again and again to somehow snout Faith's knife into the air and balance it on his head or wedge it between his jaw and his neck or something and roaring with frustration, while Buffy just sits and watches and laughs her ass off.

Heh.)

Human weakness, it never goes away. 

12 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Yes, but with Glory sent home and the Key dispersed and no longer in Dawn-shaped form, who would invent the peanut-butter-and-bologna quesadilla?  Have to look at the big picture, remember.

Or dance the dance of capitalist superiority with Anya? And keep the ephebophiles watching?

Edited May 22, 2019 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Glory is the smartest big bad. She lays low and draws minimal attention to herself. Has a plan/motivation that actually makes sense. And actually wants to cause as little damage/chaos as possible.

The dumbest villains are the knights who didn't just let her use the key to go home so she could stop being forced to share her body with some guy and sucking mental energy out of random people just to exist, and turned the Key into Buffy's sister because they had some vague idea that the key could possibly be used for good somehow someday.

Maybe the good it could have done would have been sending the powerful Hell God back to her home dimension.

Are the knights actually villains? Glory doesn't attract attention? With those clothes/hair?

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Glory is the smartest big bad. She lays low and draws minimal attention to herself. Has a plan/motivation that actually makes sense. And actually wants to cause as little damage/chaos as possible.

In this regard, Dick Wilkins is much smarter since he drew no attention to himself for two years or more. With minimal chaos (well, except for that candy thing). And I'd really like to know what Glory's plan is? Brainsuck random people? Keep an eye on Buffy's friends? She knows Buffy knows what/where the Key is and yet she wastes so much time on stupid things like sending Lei-Ach demons to kill the only person who has information on her precious Key or the fiasco with giant cobra monster. She even pays a visit to Casa Summers begging (!) for information instead of, say, capturing Buffy and interrogating her. At least, the possibility of Buffy knowing about the Key is ten times higher than, well, Spike knowing anything (yes, Spike knows what the Key is, but the hellgoddes has no way of knowing it). For all we know, Glory is stronger than the Slayer and she can make Buffy talk. She can abduct Dawn/Joyce/anyone from the Scooby Gang as well and try to have an exchange ("You give me my Key and I'll return your mommy/small sis/your best friend Willow alive and well"). Not the perfect plan, but still much smarter than what she actually does. Glory spends months with no knowledge of what exactly is she looking for or where to look when the one person who must know something is right under her nose. Not to mention, she finds out about Dawn accidentaly...

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The dumbest villains are the knights

I don't think we can call the knights "villains".

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

She knows Buffy knows what/where the Key is and yet she wastes so much time on stupid things like sending Lei-Ach demons to kill the only person who has information on her precious Key

I'm not sure that, as of Family, Glory is aware that Buffy knows about the Key.  She seems upset about Buffy getting in her way and running off with Brother Idiot Jeb ("massively rude", she calls it) but never mentions Buffy having any knowledge of the Key.

There's not even any mention of that in Shadow, although clearly Buffy's interrupting Glory's snake-raising ritual and ultimately killing the Spawn of Sobek raise Glory's suspicions.  But it's not until Checkpoint that the Abomination claims Buffy "took [her] Key".

Edited May 22, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm not sure that, as of Family, Glory is aware that Buffy knows about the Key.  She seems upset about Buffy getting in her way and running off with Brother Idiot Jeb

Which makes Glory look even more stupid. The fact that it took her seven episodes to figure out about Buffy & the Key leaves no doubt about Glory's abysmal stupidity. Even the ex-goddess like herself should be smart enough to assume Buffy may know something thanks to her brief encounter with Brother Idiot Jeb.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:26 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Which makes Glory look even more stupid. The fact that it took her seven episodes to figure out about Buffy & the Key leaves no doubt about Glory's abysmal stupidity. Even the ex-goddess like herself should be smart enough to assume Buffy may know something thanks to her brief encounter with Brother Idiot Jeb.

But how much of that 7 eps did she spend as Ben?

[Halting Hex]

So, we know that a problem with Conversations with No Xander is that we don't get any resolution on the plotlines in the episode, bar Buffy investigating Spike next episode.  

The First goes to all that trouble to try to get Willow to kill herself, then doesn't raise a finger against Willow for the rest of the season.  Willow ends up activating a shitload of Baby Slayers, who may have needed the sun shining out of Spike's ass to ultimately win the day, but did put a nice dent in Windbag's special army.  And yet, it's Amy who comes closest to taking Willow off the board, while Windy and Caleb and the Üntervamps and the Bringers and Lyssa and everyone else on #TeamEvil don't do squat against her.

I mean, Spike's come close to turning Willow into a smear on several occasions, and Spike's under the First's Musical Mind-Control, and he breaks free while there's a free-for-all battle going on, but does he take advantage of the chaos to send Will to join her girlfriend?  Nope, he just strolls off to drip some blood on the Seal of Denzel Washington, which he could have done at any time, without a bunch of Bringers getting used up to no good purpose.  Stupid.

What else happens?  Andrew kills Jonathan, which yay, die you rapist!…but which doesn't really have a lot of longterm plot impact.  And Dawn has her big battle, which leads to what we presume is First!Joyce telling Dawn that "Buffy won't choose you.   When the time comes, Buffy will be against you."

Er…not so much, really.  Buffy didn't send want to Dawn into battle, but she hardly made a move to jeopardize her Precioussssss sister.  She even made safeguarding Dawn the task she gave Xander, whom she allegedly trusted the most.  (The fact that he flubbed the job doesn't change Buffy's intent.)  Dawn's not a Valkyrie, her OOC swordswinging Grave aside.  Trying to exclude her from the final battle doesn't really count as being "against [Dawn]", not as it was implied in the episode.

(Oh, sure, Buffy says in Lies Joss Whedon Told Me that she'd be willing to sacrifice Dawn, but as sacrifices go, "put her in Xander's car and point him out of town" doesn't measure up so well. Dammit, Buffster…don't tease!)

And what does First!Joyce do when she comes back in Bring on the Suck?  She tells Buffy that she needs to sleep, and yet it's Buffy getting her Empowering Nap in Touched that actually does spur her to victory.   So, Caleb springs the trap in Dirty Girls at the one place he doesn't want Buffy to find, he lets Buffy live for no obvious reason instead of killing her the next episode, and then he digs the special Slayer Weapon out of the rock in 7.20, which can't possibly help him at all.   And in the midst of all this kid-glove treatment, Buffy benefits from doing what the First advised her to do.  Is Windbag even trying to win, ffs?

I suppose you could argue that Windy does such a crap job because it can't actually see the future; that First!Joyce is just spouting random stuff and has no idea whether Buffy will or won't choose Dawn and no clue that Buffy will actually need the Empowering Nap that "Joyce" is telling her to take.  Is there actually any indication that the First has precognitive abilities?

So…it can't touch Buffy and Buffy has prophecy dreams whereas the First is as blind as the Bringers when it comes to seeing the future?  Yeesh.  Doesn't seem like much of a fair fight, does it?

[readster]

On 5/20/2019 at 8:32 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Question. Which one of the Big Bads is the dumbest in your opinion? My Top Three include:

• "The First Evil" (its low IQ is kinda obvious, don'tcha think?);
• Glory (really "not the brightest god in the heavens", as it turned out);
• Angelus (the guy's a true monster but he failed to kill Buffy when he had a chance one too many times).

So who are the "dumb and the dumber" among the Big Bads from your POV? Only Big Bads are allowed, not some lame, half-assed subvillains like Caleb or Warren.

My choices:

The First: For being around since the dawn of time, age didn't give it wisdom

The Mayor: For all the stuff he was trying to do, he was trying for over 100 years to perform the ritual to become a giant Snake Demon. Also, he wasted Snyder, who was also a waste of Armin Shimmeren's talents post DS9. Synder was so one note and really, he didn't make things for Buffy and her friends "difficult". He wouldn't work as a principal in this day and age.

Adam: Sorry. He made no sense, even the professor, she wanted to make Frankenstein demons for the government, but then had "alternative" motives and never thought for one second she was having a lower IQ than the First? Also, for someone so bent on disecting and making hybrid demons, she sure scared easily from demons (Including Giles) who just were scaring her and not trying to kill her. Plus, Adam so invincible that once Buffy ripped out his power core, he just died. OK. Then how about the Cheese Man that was just designed to be just some actor who needed a paycheck. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, readster said:

The First: For being around since the dawn of time, age didn't give it wisdom

Can't agree with you more here. In fact, I have a theory about the First (at least, its 2002 - 2003 incarnation) being the hoax created with the combined efforts of the Powers That Be, the Senior Partners and some elements within the Watchers Council. The Partners wanted to prevent the Scooby gang from coming to Angel's aid in LA or participating more actively in the fight against forthcoming Beast/Jasmine. The Powers wanted Spike to become a new champion since Angel strayed from the path and the Councilmen wanted both to get rid of Quentin Travers and the Old Guard, and have their "Slayer army" activated. In this regard the First's stupidity looks logical since it was neither the real First nor the independent player. But that's just my theory.

1 hour ago, readster said:

he was trying for over 100 years to perform the ritual to become a giant Snake Demon

I don't think Wilkins was "trying to perform the ritual" for over 100 years. I think he was waiting for the right time to become a Snake Demon, i.e. the year 1999 (centenary of Sunnydale AFAIK). 

And I'm not sure we can call Snyder and the Cheese Man "villains" or "bads"...

[watcher1006]

Ah, Mayor Wilkins. A little hard to figure out why he wanted to ascend. There had to be something in it for him. Because he seemed to be doing fine as a superhuman. He became much destructible once he became the giant demon snake (which looked ridiculous, BTW).

As for the First, I will not ever figure out why

the great big bad of the final season of 

BtVS should have been defeated with the help of Wolfram & Hart from the series' spinoff. The great empowerment of potentials all over the world was almost irrelevant once Spike got his shiny necklace lit up. Not to mention how the Turok-hans in the First's army got watered down so that the new slayers could fight them. Throughout the final season, the Bringers were much more menacing than those Turok-hans.

[readster]

1 hour ago, watcher1006 said:

Ah, Mayor Wilkins. A little hard to figure out why he wanted to ascend. There had to be something in it for him. Because he seemed to be doing fine as a superhuman. He became much destructible once he became the giant demon snake (which looked ridiculous, BTW).

 

I know, there was once where he go this head split open and he healed up fine. Now, if they would have it where his germ phobia was key as in: "I can heal from anything, but if I got hit with influenza or anthrax, I'm screwed!" Then you see he knew despite his abilities he wasn't invincible. However, the Mayor really never had much an origin story, especially when the Hellmouth was revealed for what it was both in season 1 and season 7. It sounded like the Mayor was behind the true origins of the town since they found all the pictures of him and they basically just had him "assuming" the role of being descended from the Wilkins line. Then it was: "Ho, hum... that's not important." Other wise it sounds like the Master established the Hellmouth, bit off more than he could chew (pardon the pun) and then everyone just took advantage of it.

Then they plugged in that the Seers were corrupted people and then branded themselves, but they really never got that right. I mean if the First was non-corporal, how was he merging with Seers and Caleb and giving them "super powers" yet no one could put their hands on it. I'm still a fan of Joss Weadon, but he was trying to have it both ways and use cast members from Firefly when the show got cancelled. I mean all of  sudden here were Adam Baldwin, Gena Torres and Nathan Fillion on his shows in the middle of their seasons or ready to be over in less than 8 episodes. It came off like: "Well, our show got cancelled, they need a paycheck so let me just throw them in here."

I brought up Snyder because after he was so happy that Buffy left at the end of season 2 after defeating Angel. It was making it look like he was really kind of like a main underling and knew about all the super natural stuff in Sunnydale. Then they back tracked on all of that with the demon spider box and even at the end, Wilkins eats him. They were trying to have it that Synder was this big anal reteptive person that he is ordering a 300 foot snake to give him quiet instead of: "I'm fucking out of here!" I felt Synder could have been used much more relevent instead of the: "I'm a school authority figure and it's my way or the highway" cliche. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by readster

[watcher1006]

4 hours ago, readster said:

I brought up Snyder because after he was so happy that Buffy left at the end of season 2 after defeating Angel. It was making it look like he was really kind of like a main underling and knew about all the super natural stuff in Sunnydale. Then they back tracked on all of that with the demon spider box and even at the end, Wilkins eats him. They were trying to have it that Synder was this big anal reteptive person that he is ordering a 300 foot snake to give him quiet instead of: "I'm fucking out of here!" I felt Synder could have been used much more relevent instead of the: "I'm a school authority figure and it's my way or the highway" cliche. 

Good point about Snyder. I always thought that through the end of Season 2 and the first part of Season 3 they were developing some evil connection between Snyder and the Mayor and then they just sort of set it aside. As things evolved through later Season 3, it was as though any connection between them was that of Snyder being used by the Mayor, Snyder not having any idea of what his ultimate purpose was. I suppose that was reasonably plausible, maybe they were only united in the goal of getting rid of Buffy. But I thought that they could have done more with the two, and more with Snyder in general. Armin Shimerman is a good actor.

[readster]

1 minute ago, watcher1006 said:

Good point about Snyder. I always thought that through the end of Season 2 and the first part of Season 3 they were developing some evil connection between Snyder and the Mayor and then they just sort of set it aside. As things evolved through later Season 3, it was as though any connection between them was that of Snyder being used by the Mayor, Snyder not having any idea of what his ultimate purpose was. I suppose that was reasonably plausible, maybe they were only united in the goal of getting rid of Buffy. But I thought that they could have done more with the two, and more with Snyder in general. Armin Shimerman is a good actor.

Right and Deep Space Nine was wrapping up by the time he joined the show and only had one season left. Why you saw more of him towards the end of Season 2 more and then majority of the time in Season 3 as DS9 was over by then. I felt like his brief appearance with the Apocalypse Now Dream of Xander was kind of: "We love Armin and feel bad we kind of just killed him off. So here is a chance for him to show some great acting." Especially, since Armin admitted in an interview he loved the movie and knew it influenced the scene. Something about TV shows when they are long over you look back and go: "So, why didn't they do this?" or "They seem to be setting this up and then went, nah." 

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

As for the First, I will not ever figure out why

 

  Hide contents

the great big bad of the final season of 

BtVS should have been defeated with the help of Wolfram & Hart from the series' spinoff.

You mean the same Wolfram & Hart that was never even mentioned on Buffy? I guess by then Whedon and the team have hit a new low with their collective incompetence.

6 hours ago, readster said:

I felt Synder could have been used much more relevent instead of the: "I'm a school authority figure and it's my way or the highway" cliche. 

I agree.

2 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

As things evolved through later Season 3, it was as though any connection between them was that of Snyder being used by the Mayor, Snyder not having any idea of what his ultimate purpose was. I suppose that was reasonably plausible, maybe they were only united in the goal of getting rid of Buffy.

Maybe Snyder was the one who wanted Buffy gone. But Wilkins? I don't think so. He could've killed Buffy many times in many ways, but apart from few attempts (Dirty Girls, Consequences, Enemies) he rarely put much effort in it. Not to mention him being able to make Buffy's and all her friends' and loved ones' lives a living hell by using his political connections simply as a Mayor, not some superpowered villain. And yet... I guess he didn't take the blonde Slayer too seriously. Or  right up until the X-Day (Ascension) it was in Wilkins best interest to let Buffy live and slay and successfully prevent every unexpected Apocalypse in order for the little Apocalypse of his to take place in due time.

[Perfect Xero]

The Mayor's head healing was an early part of the ritual to become the snake thing, right? Once he started it it was basically invincible until Snake Day.

OR am I misremembering that.

I do enjoy that in the first couple of seasons when Buffy faces some indestructible demon like the Judge or Snake Mayor the go to response was, "Okay, but they didn't have rocket launchers back then."

[readster]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The Mayor's head healing was an early part of the ritual to become the snake thing, right? Once he started it it was basically invincible until Snake Day.

OR am I misremembering that.

I do enjoy that in the first couple of seasons when Buffy faces some indestructible demon like the Judge or Snake Mayor the go to response was, "Okay, but they didn't have rocket launchers back then."

Right and with the Judge, it made sense. Plus, with the rocket launcher, it didn't really "kill him" just blew him apart. It's funny when you look at Faith's transitions during season 3. Yes, she had an abusive past and then killing Kakestaos to avenger her Watcher's death. I just feel like her all of a sudden: "So I killed a regular guy, he worked for the mayor, I'm going to go work for him now that I killed Mr. Trick." It was kind of: "Wait what?" Then of course by the time she woke up from her coma, it was: "Well, I've seen the light, I'll just be kind of a bitch, but I rather kill vampire/demons again." I felt like everyone was kind of amoured with Eliza Dushku in Hollywood, which was mostly with Joss Weadon various TV shows. However, while I have enjoyed her in various TV shows. I feel she was an example of: "This tv creator loves me, so I always have a job with them." Then they get pigeon holed in various roles and that's all you know them as. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/7/2020 at 3:47 AM, Perfect Xero said:

The Mayor's head healing was an early part of the ritual to become the snake thing, right? Once he started it it was basically invincible until Snake Day.

OR am I misremembering that.

I do enjoy that in the first couple of seasons when Buffy faces some indestructible demon like the Judge or Snake Mayor the go to response was, "Okay, but they didn't have rocket launchers back then."

But that's a recurring theme in Whedon's work, what was once invincible isn't much cop compared to modern technology, you can see that in the Buffyverse, AofS, CITW etc

On 4/7/2020 at 1:48 PM, readster said:

Right and with the Judge, it made sense. Plus, with the rocket launcher, it didn't really "kill him" just blew him apart. It's funny when you look at Faith's transitions during season 3. Yes, she had an abusive past and then killing Kakestaos to avenger her Watcher's death. I just feel like her all of a sudden: "So I killed a regular guy, he worked for the mayor, I'm going to go work for him now that I killed Mr. Trick." It was kind of: "Wait what?" Then of course by the time she woke up from her coma, it was: "Well, I've seen the light, I'll just be kind of a bitch, but I rather kill vampire/demons again." I felt like everyone was kind of amoured with Eliza Dushku in Hollywood, which was mostly with Joss Weadon various TV shows. However, while I have enjoyed her in various TV shows. I feel she was an example of: "This tv creator loves me, so I always have a job with them." Then they get pigeon holed in various roles and that's all you know them as. 

Well I feel the same way really, watch anything with ED in it. I though her defection was pretty reasonable, she was always looking to belong. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/6/2020 at 10:33 PM, readster said:

Right and Deep Space Nine was wrapping up by the time he joined the show and only had one season left. Why you saw more of him towards the end of Season 2 more and then majority of the time in Season 3 as DS9 was over by then. I felt like his brief appearance with the Apocalypse Now Dream of Xander was kind of: "We love Armin and feel bad we kind of just killed him off. So here is a chance for him to show some great acting." Especially, since Armin admitted in an interview he loved the movie and knew it influenced the scene. Something about TV shows when they are long over you look back and go: "So, why didn't they do this?" or "They seem to be setting this up and then went, nah." 

Well if you listen to the commentaries one of the writers had a crush on Armin so maybe that's why he was brought back? Also Snyder quotes Apocalypse Now in Gingerbread and Xander tells him what he really thinks of him as he once promised to do. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/6/2020 at 4:49 PM, watcher1006 said:

Ah, Mayor Wilkins. A little hard to figure out why he wanted to ascend. There had to be something in it for him. Because he seemed to be doing fine as a superhuman. He became much destructible once he became the giant demon snake (which looked ridiculous, BTW).

As for the First, I will not ever figure out why

 

  Hide contents

the great big bad of the final season of 

BtVS should have been defeated with the help of Wolfram & Hart from the series' spinoff. The great empowerment of potentials all over the world was almost irrelevant once Spike got his shiny necklace lit up. Not to mention how the Turok-hans in the First's army got watered down so that the new slayers could fight them. Throughout the final season, the Bringers were much more menacing than those Turok-hans.

 

I guess the Mayor just wanted power? Or the ability to remake the world as he wanted through terror? Plus Spike would never have got the chance to get shiny if the Slayers hadn't held them back. Also this was Buffy's backup plan, if Spike failed the Slayer army could defeat them.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Joe Hellandback