Star Trek: The Next Generation - General Discussion

[starri]

Run, don't walk to stream Shatner's Chaos on the Bridge documentary about the genesis and first few seasons of TNG.  It's wonderfully unvarnished in the way it bluntly deals with the challenges that nearly kept it off the air.  The nice thing is, despite all the personality conflicts, it doesn't look like anyone is really carrying a grudge after so much time.  Well, except maybe the friction between Gates McFadden and Maurice Hurley, and for that, #TeamGates.

 

I don't know if I think Shatner is the right person to tell this story, but I'm glad someone did.

 

Nice write-up here.

[rereader2]

Thanks for the tip, it sounds great!

[Ubiquitous]

I saw Conspiracy yesterday. It's a shame they never followed up on it, but did Roddenberry fire Trace Torme for writing such a dark ep?

[Maverick]

 No, it was Maurice Hurley--the headwriter for the first two seasons--that Torme clashed with.  I think Torme just left rather than being fired.  The original story didn't have the parasites--just a plot of a coup within Starfleet.  Hurley flipped his lid but the story eventually got produced by adding the aliens.  The parasites are followed up in the relaunch books that take place after all the series and movies.

[rereader2]

Robert Heinlein did the parasites better in The Puppet Masters--in 1951, when that sort of thing was a political comment (not one I agree with, but still, it had a point). (Invasion of the Body Snatchers was 1956.)

 

 

ETA: Come to think of it, TOS did the parasites better.

Edited August 12, 2015 by rereader2

[1TrackMind]

I was pretty young, like 5, when TNG came out. But my papa ( Dads dad) and I had a Saturday tradition before then. We could curl up on the couch and watch TOS together. I liked it well enough, but the time spent with him was the big deal. 

 

When TNG came out, papa was a trucker and on the road during the week, so grandma and I would tape the show, and he and I would watch it together on the weekends. Even though I usually watched it when it aired, again, sitting down with him was our bonding experience, so I have a warm feeling for the show, even the less then stellar episodes, because of it.

[Miss Dee]

Heh. Mark of Mark Watches finally got to the Best of Both Worlds. His reaction is worth reading. Great commentary from posters too; that's one of the main reasons I'm keeping up, actually.

[SVNBob]

Heh. Mark of Mark Watches finally got to the Best of Both Worlds. His reaction is worth reading.

Also worth watching.  I've got the video if anyone would like to see it.   PMs only please.

[Last Time Lord]

Star Trek has always been weird with me. I didn't really get into it until the 2009, watched a few scattered episodes of TOS, the essentials, mostly, Space Seed, Balance Of Terror, etc, but then, decided to make the plunge into TNG.

 

Made it to the last season, but then got impatient, and jumped into DS9, stopping in the fourth season, due to life reasons, and now, about a year later, decided to finish TNG.

 

I just finished Lower Decks. This was such a phenomenal episode.

 

I loved how it gave us a chance to see some of the secondary main cast members in a more senior light, with them being more mentors than usually seen.

 

I think my favorite part of the episode was the dual Poker Games, with the conversations the senior staff and junior staff had intercutting each other, with how they were talking about the same topics.

 

And then... that ending. This episode is up there with Best Of Both Worlds with me, albeit on a much smaller scale.

 

This may be an unusual one, but The Drumhead was actually one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. I read on TV Tropes, it was originally intended to be a clip show, but the writers were having none of that, and produced a real powerful episode with minimal effects and guest stars, and actually came in under budget, when it was all said and done.

 

 No, it was Maurice Hurley--the headwriter for the first two seasons--that Torme clashed with.  I think Torme just left rather than being fired.  The original story didn't have the parasites--just a plot of a coup within Starfleet.  Hurley flipped his lid but the story eventually got produced by adding the aliens.  The parasites are followed up in the relaunch books that take place after all the series and movies.

 

From what I recall, the Borg filled the role originally intended  for the parasites, because they just did not have the budget for the parasites.

[VCRTracking]

 

This may be an unusual one, but The Drumhead was actually one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. I read on TV Tropes, it was originally intended to be a clip show, but the writers were having none of that, and produced a real powerful episode with minimal effects and guest stars, and actually came in under budget, when it was all said and done.

 

Jean Simmons as the Joseph McCarthy type character was awesome in that episode. "I'VE TAKEN DOWN BIGGER MEN THAN YOU PICAAAHD!!"

 

Jonathan Frakes did a good job directing. He admits he got a lot of ideas for shots from Judgement at Nuremberg(which featured a young William Shatner).

 

Most season 1 episodes fall into the "so bad it's good" territory. Just hilarious.

Edited September 8, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Maverick]

 The Borg were originally conceived of as an insectoid but budget constraints turned them into cyborgs.  

 

 Season 1 is just...yeah.  I hadn't seen season 1 or 2 in years because BBCA was the only channel showing TNG and for a long time they didn't have them.  It was such a shock.  There was always a noticeable difference in quality but it's just such a stark contrast after a few years distance.  How can you not like gems like "Justice" (with a 60's alien wardrobe right out of TOS....all that was missing was the stenciled art on the forehead), "Hide and Q" (with a plot right out of TOS...they might as well have called Q Trelane in this one) and "Home Soil" (with a female scientist/love interest of the week straight out TOS...which shows Riker < Kirk because Kirk totally would have hot that when she was all weepy).   

[VCRTracking]

It's mind boggling that they didn't have a regular chief engineer in the first season.

[Maverick]

 Whaddaya mean?  They had six of 'em!    Someone had something against engineering.  In addition to not having a chief engineer in the main cast (leading to calling the ship's navigator in to fix everything from the holodeck to the captain's It's 5 O'Clock Somewhere margarita maker), there also was no main engineering standing set built.  When Roddenberry realized this, he had a scene set in main engineering written into the pilot so the set would be built.

[VCRTracking]

Also what was Worf's job that first year? Before Tasha died and he took over as security chief, he just was there on the bridge, doing whatever.

[Last Time Lord]

I have to say, Journey's End felt like the equivalent of a parent willingly leading their child towards a person who has a panel van with "free candy" written on it with black spray paint.

[Maverick]

Worf was there to be the Designated Cold War Allegory.

I didn't think The Traveller was as bad in Journey's End as he was in his first appearance. Just the way he kept calling Wes "the boy" and Beverly "the mother" there was icky.

[Last Time Lord]

Worf was there to be the Designated Cold War Allegory.

I didn't think The Traveller was as bad in Journey's End as he was in his first appearance. Just the way he kept calling Wes "the boy" and Beverly "the mother" there was icky.

You ever see any of SF Debris' opinionated episode reviews? They're currently offline because his video hosting site shut down, but in the episode where Beverly was trapped in this rapidly compressing pocket dimension and The Traveller showed up to help Wesley get her out, well, SF Debris showed an image of one of the Enterprise's shuttles with Traveller's instructions playing over it with a very slow zoom in on the shuttle.

It was so very wrong, but absolutely hysterical.

[Last Time Lord]

I finished TNG. I think the series' standalone nature was the biggest detriment to the final season.

The finale didn't feel like it was the culmination of the entire series, but rather just another episode.

What I'm saying is I much prefer the arc based storytelling of DS9.

[VCRTracking]

When "All Good Things" writers Ronald Moore and Brannon Bragga were interviewed about the finale for the 20th anniversary last year it was brought up:

 

Moore: "We revisited the Worf/Troi/Riker triangle [in the finale], which we kind of played around with in that final season. But we didn't really give it resolution, or platform it into the movies. Part of that was, there was sort of a schizophrenic attitude towards that whole idea on the show. Next Gen was slowly moving in its last season or two to do a little bit more with serialized storytelling, to sort of play out longer story arcs with some of the characters. But there was a lot of resistance from Paramount about it; [executive producer] Rick Berman was not sold on it. It was something that we writers wanted to do, but we were sort of howling into the wind, to an extent. So we didn't really concentrate on bringing any of those storylines to a conclusion."

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/bp/star-trek-the-next-generation-series-finale-all-good-things-20-years-later-ronald-d-moore-brannon-braga-223132059.html

 

Worf was there to be the Designated Cold War Allegory.

And then he became the guy nobody listens to!

 

Edited September 13, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Last Time Lord]

That's interesting. Thanks for the link.

Also, for what it's worth, the show's TV Tropes page said Worf was the communications officer at the start.

[VCRTracking]

Watching some season 1 eps made me realize even though I much preferred Dr. Crusher over Pulaski, it was actually better for Wesley's character that his mom be away for a while.

[VCRTracking]

Discuss the fourth season of TNG.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Surely we can find a shorter title for this thread, don't you think? Maybe "So Long, Wesley!"? Or something about Picard's suede jacket?

Or maybe "Goodbye, Wesley, Hello, Alexander"?

[Maverick]

Picard's jacket doesn't appear until season 5.

[VCRTracking]

Yeah, I regretted not coming up with a shorter title as soon as I saw it on the board. Anyway I just wanted to talk about season 4 episodes.

[yeswedo]

Yeah, I regretted not coming up with a shorter title as soon as I saw it on the board. Anyway I just wanted to talk about season 4 episodes.

 

It's easy enough to change the thread title but don't let it stop you from discussing season 4!

[VCRTracking]

Coooooooool.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK9ijZeHWjI

[rereader2]

Cool indeed! (Also a little creepy, so empty!)

[Miss Dee]

Mark (from Mark Does Stuff) is on this season now. Just about every episode is blowing his mind.

[Maverick]

Mark (from Mark Does Stuff) is on this season now. Just about every episode is blowing his mind.

Don't worry. He'll get to Night Terrors

[VCRTracking]

"The Host" is an interesting one to rewatch. The Trill are introduced but they are different than how they are later and not just that they don't have spots. They way it's depicted the symbiont completely takes over the host body and the original's personality is mostly suppressed while in Deep Space Nine the hosts has the memories of the symbiont's past lives the host still retains his or her own personality. Also I think they would have Dr. Crusher not be as reluctant with being with Odan in a female host.

Edited September 26, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Miss Dee]

I had no problem with Crusher's decision character-wise, because not everyone could just follow their lover from body to body regardless of factors like sex. I think, however, her explanation would not have been as hetero centric or ciscentric had it been written today or even at the time of DS9. And obviously at this time Odan was written to be exactly the same person regardless of what body the symbiont was in, which is not how the character would have been written in DS9. In that show Beverly would have lost the man she knew the minute the symbiont was transferred into Riker's body, let alone the female Trill host.

But of course that would have changed the story to something like Beverly trying to find the man she knew in Riker, and Symbiont!Riker saying "Back off, I ain't interested no more, lady!" The stakes would not have been as big nor the impact as great.

Obviously the real reason for the differences in the Trill from series to series is that they had worked out how they wanted the species to work long-term by DS9, which they didn't have to do for "The Host". I think my favourite fanwank for it is that the two belong to different subspecies of Trill, with Odan's people actually named "Trylls".

There should be a thread for our favourite fanwank theories regarding Star Trek.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Miss Dee

[VCRTracking]

I always liked the one that Khan recognized Chekov in Star Trek II even though he didn't appear until the second season and Khan's episode  was the first, was because Chekov was in the bathroom during most of it!

[VCRTracking]

I always liked the one that explained how Khan recognized Chekov in Star Trek II even though he didn't appear until the second season and Khan's episode  was the first. It was because Chekov was in the bathroom during most of it! I think Walter Koenig was the one who proposed that.

Edited October 6, 2015 by VCRTracking

[John Potts]

VCRTracking It was because Chekov was in the bathroom during most of it!

 

 

And in some versions, kept him waiting for ten minutes... and used the last of the loo paper! But that would be to acknowledge there were toilets on the Enterprise so obviously it's non-canon.

[questionfear]

I had no problem with Crusher's decision character-wise, because not everyone could just follow their lover from body to body regardless of factors like sex. I think, however, her explanation would not have been as hetero centric or ciscentric had it been written today or even at the time of DS9. And obviously at this time Odan was written to be exactly the same person regardless of what body the symbiont was in, which is not how the character would have been written in DS9. In that show Beverly would have lost the man she knew the minute the symbiont was transferred into Riker's body, let alone the female Trill host.

But of course that would have changed the story to something like Beverly trying to find the man she knew in Riker, and Symbiont!Riker saying "Back off, I ain't interested no more, lady!" The stakes would not have been as big nor the impact as great.

Obviously the real reason for the differences in the Trill from series to series is that they had worked out how they wanted the species to work long-term by DS9, which they didn't have to do for "The Host". I think my favourite fanwank for it is that the two belong to different subspecies of Trill, with Odan's people actually named "Trylls".

There should be a thread for our favourite fanwank theories regarding Star Trek.

 

I would love a fanwank theories thread!

[VCRTracking]

Katie Lowes from Scandal dressed up as Deanna Troi fo Halloween on Kimmel and talked about being attracted to Patrick Stewart when she was younger.

 

Edited November 2, 2015 by VCRTracking

[AndySmith]

It was such a nice quotidian scene that gave you a sense of what they did when not battling the Borg or refereeing diplomatic negotiations.

 

Scenes of them playing poker also helped establish that they were a group of friends instead of just co-workers.

 

 

 

Also what was Worf's job that first year? Before Tasha died and he took over as security chief, he just was there on the bridge, doing whatever.

 

As per the Memory Alpha wiki, he starts out as a Lieutenant Junior Grade working in Command Divison as a bridge officer, then transfers to Operations/Tactical & Security once Tasha dies. He then gets promoted to full Lieutenant in late season 2/early season 3, I think.

 

What I'm saying is I much prefer the arc based storytelling of DS9

 

I know in today's TV climate, we're supposed to love arc based storytelling and boo and hiss at serialized shows...but with that, I still prefer TNG over DS9 as a show.

 

In other news...vote for Data and Tasha hooking up on today's KODTTM here on this site. Love or hate the moment, it's always nice to see a TNG entry score a few wins...

[John Potts]

Anyone else feel Data welshed on the deal in that first clip? Riker just said he could find his card - he didn't say it wasn't  trick. Seeing through the trick does not mean Riker didn't do exactly what he said he could!

[rereader2]

I know in today's TV climate, we're supposed to love arc based storytelling and boo and hiss at serialized shows...but with that, I still prefer TNG over DS9 as a show.

 

I did not care for DS9 at all--there's no boldly going on a space station. Also, I really dislike arc-based storytelling. If I want long-form fiction I don't go to episodic television for it, I read a book. I go to TV for something that wraps up neatly in an hour, or two at most! (I'm old fashioned, sue me.)

Edited November 12, 2015 by rereader2

[AndySmith]

For all those who say there was never any conflict on this show...well, there wasn't tons of it, but this is still a fun video ;)

 

[AndySmith]

Also, interesting to see some of the choices they could have here with Data, Troi, and Geordi's looks...

 

[John Potts]

AndySmith For all those who say there was never any conflict on this show...well, there wasn't tons of it

 

 

To be fair, 90% of those were times when the crew were under some sot of mind whammy, 9% weren't crew members and only about 1% were genuine conflicts among the crew. Still fun though (I always love the "Push Keiko" "I AM PUSHING!" because I'm sure if I was trying to force a melon through orange sized hole I'd want to shout at somebody too!)

[AndySmith]

Oh, I know, thats why I added there wasn't tons of it ;)

 

Then again, I'm someone who liked the fact that there wasn't much conflict between the crew.

[Peace 47]

I've gotten into TNG at 3 times in my life: when I was a preteen/tween in the last couple of seasons of first run syndication and watched it with my dad (who is a Trek fan from the original), when I was in college and now another decade plus later (through BBCA reruns and my newly purchased Netflix subscription). It's like I forget for a decade or so how much I like the show and then find my way back. I've tried all the other Treks except the original series, and this is the only one that I flove.

Some new thoughts I've had on my third go-around: I think the show was pretty good for its time at putting interesting characters into thought-provoking moral quandaries. I was surprised how nuanced the "Ethics" episode (Worf gets paralyzed and wants to die) was. You had some (like Riker) pointing out the possibility of solid quality of life, but that was at odds with Worf's culture, traditions and values, and I like how Picard recognized the validity of Worf's choice. (I was okay with the deus ex machina ending because I didn't want Worf to kick it). I guess with added life experience, I feel strongly about the right to decline unwanted medical treatment without being put on a guilt trip by family, friends and doctors.

Something I never really appreciated before is that I also think Riker's relationship to Captain Picard is very interesting. Riker, an "alpha male" type in general, practically idolizes Picard, and that comes out in subtle ways in a lot of epsiodes. Before "Suddenly Human", I watched "The Best of Both Worlds" this week for the first time in 10+ years, and you really get how much Riker cares about Picard. (This also comes up in that S6 or S7 episode when they thought Picard was dead but he was actually with those mercenaries, and Riker takes it really hard.) When Guinan tells Riker to let Picard go in TBoBW, his guilt wells up with that (well-delivered) line yelled in response, something like, "I don't know if you've heard, but I just tried to kill him yesterday!" Honestly, I come away from the show now thinking that the main thing holding Riker back from accepting captaining another ship was how much he loved his surrogate father figure. Very smart of the show to turn that relationship on its head in "Yesterday's Enterprise," when there was that strong vein of hostility running through their interactions.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Peace 47

[Athena]

Something I never really appreciated before is that I also think Riker's relationship to Captain Picard is very interesting. Riker, an "alpha male" type in general, practically idolizes Picard, and that comes out in subtle ways in a lot of epsiodes. Before "Suddenly Human", I watched "The Best of Both Worlds" this week for the first time in 10+ years, and you really get how much Riker cares about Picard. (This also comes up in that S6 or S7 episode when they thought Picard was dead but he was actually with those mercenaries, and Riker takes it really hard.) When Guinan tells Riker to let Picard go in TBoBW, his guilt wells up with that (well-delivered) line yelled in response, something like, "I don't know if you've heard, but I just tried to kill him yesterday!" Honestly, I come away from the show now thinking that the main thing holding Riker back from accepting captaining another ship was how much he loved his surrogate father figure. Very smart of the show to turn that relationship on its head in "Yesterday's Enterprise," when there was that strong vein of hostility running through their interactions.

 

Yes. I love how subtle and well played it was. One thing that is obvious is that the cast all adore each other as well so it comes off in their interactions. Riker definitely would have become Captain much earlier in the series run with his experience, but I do think they wrote it that the is very attached to Picard. Who wouldn't be though?

 

I noticed on my rewatch a couple years ago that Riker gets kidnapped a lot. I think more than any other crew member with the exception of Picard. Some of the incidents were really scary as well but he always was able to make it through with the help of the rest of the crew. I think Riker knew that he was in a great position and didn't want to leave it.

[AndySmith]

In some ways, its a good thing he turned down some of those promotions, especially the USS Melbourne...given that it was lost at the Battle of Wolf 359 against the Borg lol

[MrTom]

It's wrong what BBC America does to this show while airing it. Not only is the video sync delayed from the audio, but they chop content from every episode.

 

I just got finished watching "Remember Me" on BBC America. It seemed to have ended abruptly. So I flipped it over to my Blu-ray version and fast forwarded to the end. And sure enough they chopped out the part when Dr. Crusher asks the captain how many people were on board.

 

This isn't the first time I've noticed little bits and pieces hacked out of the episodes all done for the main purpose of showing more commercials.

 

It's just plain wrong.

 

 

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/1b2157e533492e78297c16e6cbe1dfceb91d191.gif

[Peace 47]

Good point about Riker: the whole crew just really adores him.

I continue my rewatch, somewhat out of order because I just either (1) happen to catch some eps on BBCA while I'm doing housework or (2) cherry-pick my favorites off Netflix.

I've read about how people cite "Remember Me" as a great episode, and I couldn't agree more. It captures one of the best motifs of science fiction: taking a tragedy of the human condition and amplifying it. We worry about the mark we will leave; we worry about being left alone and how to hang onto the memories of the people who are gone. And with this epsiode, there's this awful surreal overlay to it because all those crises happen at once and seemingly without explanation. Beverly was very smart to figure out what was happening basically all by herself. It's chilling when the computer describes to her the exact size and nature of the universe, and I actually got a little misty when she was pleading with Captain Picard that their friends deserved more than to be forgotten. "They all deserve so much more!" But I also had an lol moment when the Traveler was pontificating about the warp bubble, said that Crusher was alive "as long as she believes she is alive," and Riker looks 100% done with everything and replies with "What the hell is that supposed to mean?"

When I was young, Bev was my co-favorite character because I was always on the lookout for great female characters in media. (My other fav was Geordi because I was a child of the 80s, and "Reading Rainbow" love dies hard, y'all.) Maybe I'll go watch "Disaster" so I can see my two old favs working together.

[Locutus]

Regarding the bbc america viewing and scene cuts.... Thine Own Self opens with Crusher healing a skin tear on Riker. In the original run it's explained that he's watching Data's cat Spot and Spot attacked him. Crusher then offers to take the cat til Data comes back. They cut out all dialog about Spot and what caused the injury, but left in Riker leaving sickbay, tossing a phaser to Crusher and telling her that she might need it. Makes no sense without the cut scenes.