Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie filmed in Belfast after Seville. She’s probably done now, although I agree that there may be leftover filming for July. I suspect her Seville scenes were Sansa’s last scenes in 8x06, but we’ll see.

I doubt that she filmed in Belfast after Seville. I think she was just spending some time with the gang before the wrap party and then left immediately after. It did seem like she wrapped in Seville from her tweet, her behavior there and other cast members being sad and all that. Or it could just be Sansa's last scene. No idea really.

So with Sapochnik there, looks like battle scenes are still getting filmed on the KL set. Red priestess thinks dragons involved and with both Kit and Emilia in Belfast, that's possible.

So possibly the big KL battle against either Cersei/Euron or WW/NK with Jon/Dany in episode 5. If Thor was there for this, maybe the mountain is going on a rampage on the streets instead of Cleganebowl.

Edited June 20, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

I doubt that she filmed in Belfast after Seville. I think she was just spending some time with the gang before the wrap party and then left immediately after. It did seem like she wrapped in Seville from her tweet, her behavior there and other cast members being sad and all that. Or it could just be Sansa's last scene. No idea really.

So with Sapochnik there, looks like battle scenes are still getting filmed on the KL set. Red priestess thinks dragons involved and with both Kit and Emilia in Belfast, that's possible.

 

I'm certain that Sophie was filming in Belfast after Seville, since otherwise she wouldn't have been bumming around Belfast for three weeks but rather would have made a beeline for Australia to spend time with Joe, which is in fact what she did the week before last. She may not have been filming that much after Belfast compared to Maisie (which has been the case for S8 filming in general), but she was filming.

Dark Phoenix reshoots start in late July and will go for four weeks, so unless /BoatsexBaby is right about principal photography continuing until December, whatever Sophie's involvement will be won't go past mid-July. She's been away from Belfast for about two weeks now, though.

As for Cleganebowl, a_red_priestess also said that she may have seen Rory today.

More from a_red_priestess:

Interesting.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Eyes High

[Eyes High]

NCW did an interview at Cannes Lions with Variety. Key takeaways:

1. He's not finished filming after all, he's heading back to Belfast next week.

2. He has, however, filmed his final scene of the show.

3. On his reaction to the ending: "Dan Weiss and David Benioff, the creators, they just couldn't have done a better job on ending our story."

[anamika]

Quote

His reaction to S7:

For season 7, Coster-Waldau says that the production felt different than it had before, due in no small part to the fact that the show is truly “off-off-off” the books, and that showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss are now more protective of their material. “I have suggestions like an annoying actor and I have questions,” he said. I’ve just sensed this last season that this is their baby: ‘Just say the words as they’re written, and shut up.’ Which is absolutely fine. I respect that! And obviously, what they write is not bad, it’s really good. It was a very significant shift.”

It's kinda sad how this has now become David and Dan's story, their baby. Of course, there's no one to blame here other than fraudster GRRM who does everything except write the books because he does not know how to get to his ending. I am guessing that with the show being truly 'off-off-off' the books everything about the respective journeys of these characters to their endings will be totally different to what GRRM had in mind. I hope that we at least get the same endings for the main characters since we are not getting any more of the books and the show will be the only way to know how it all ends.

[SimoneS]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's kinda sad how this has now become David and Dan's story, their baby. Of course, there's no one to blame here other than fraudster GRRM who does everything except write the books because he does not know how to get to his ending. I am guessing that with the show being truly 'off-off-off' the books everything about the respective journeys of these characters to their endings will be totally different to what GRRM had in mind. I hope that we at least get the same endings for the main characters since we are not getting any more of the books and the show will be the only way to know how it all ends.

We are getting the same endings for the main characters that GRRM told them about, it is the ones that he didn't tell them about that will be different. I think that is why D&D didn't want to hear the actor's opinions. They couldn't change anything. The story ends, how GRRM told them it ends.

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm certain that Sophie was filming in Belfast after Seville, since otherwise she wouldn't have been bumming around Belfast for three weeks but rather would have made a beeline for Australia to spend time with Joe, which is in fact what she did the week before last. She may not have been filming that much after Belfast compared to Maisie (which has been the case for S8 filming in general), but she was filming.

Dark Phoenix reshoots start in late July and will go for four weeks, so unless /BoatsexBaby is right about principal photography continuing until December, whatever Sophie's involvement will be won't go past mid-July. She's been away from Belfast for about two weeks now, though.

She’s reportedly going to be on James Corden’s show soon, so while she obviously won’t give spoilers, she might conceivably confirm that she’s done filming or not (I expect she is).

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It's kinda sad how this has now become David and Dan's story, their baby. Of course, there's no one to blame here other than fraudster GRRM who does everything except write the books because he does not know how to get to his ending

To be fair to D&D, it's not as if they signed up to write the last few seasons without the benefit of books to adapt, either (...although they must have known it was a possibility).

44 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She’s reportedly going to be on James Corden’s show soon, so while she obviously won’t give spoilers, she might conceivably confirm that she’s done filming or not (I expect she is).

She may be done filming--the tattoo suggests that she is--but still have ADR and the like to do. On /Freefolk the point was made that NCW may be done filming but may still be needed in Belfast for ADR. I doubt he would have trimmed his beard if he had any real filming left to do.

Kit was (allegedly) spotted in London today. I wonder if he'll still get recognized as much once he cuts his hair very short as he has said he wants to do.

[nikma]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

It's kinda sad how this has now become David and Dan's story, their baby

Why it's sad? I mean they didn't steal anything. They worked hard for more than 10 years on the unfinished unadaptable story and made the biggest TV show on the world that broke many records. 

 

They derserve this.

Edited June 20, 2018 by nikma

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

We are getting the same endings for the main characters that GRRM told them about, it is the ones that he didn't tell them about that will be different. I think that is why D&D didn't want to hear the actor's opinions. They couldn't change anything. The story ends, how GRRM told them it ends.

In broad strokes though. The context would be anything that D & D want it to be since GRRM seems to have less than firm ideas, holes that he hasn't been filled out yet and some knock on effects from having different characters. 

[nikma]

I do think that D&D stoped caring about faithfulness to the books long time ago. If something feels like a good idea for them, I'm sure they would do it, no matter what will happen in the books, that GRRM won't finish anyway.

Edited June 20, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

Via /Freefolk: the (a?) Season 8 wrap party is happening on June 30th (courtesy of the Comic Con Germany website). NCW will then remain in Belfast for ADR.  

As for the show vs the planned book ending, fans will be arguing forever about which elements of the show ending are from GRRM. As has usually been the case, anything fans like will be attributed to GRRM and anything they don’t like will be deemed to have been dreamt up by D&D.

I doubt we'll get any confirmation from D&D as to which elements are from them and which are from GRRM, other than the third of the infamous shocking twists they've previously mentioned (the other two being Hodor's name and Stannis burning Shireen). We're not going to get any confirmation from GRRM, either.

For my money, anything involving the Starks, the Lannisters and Dany will be from the books, but for anything or anyone else, it will probably be from D&D.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

For my money, anything involving the Starks, the Lannisters and Dany will be from the books, but for anything or anyone else, it will probably be from D&D.

 

I think the five main characters from Martin's outline will have the ending from the books: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, and Bran. I am not sure about Sansa. Since Jaime and Cersei's endings are closely connected to Tyrion, Martin probably knows and told D&D what happens to them. 

I do agree D&D aren't going to confirm either way. They aren't going to want to spoil anything for Martin. Besides the fans who don't like the ending won't believe them anyway. There are still people who think that they made up Jon's real name rather than getting that major plot point from Martin.

Edited June 20, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Since Jaime and Cersei's endings are closely connected to Tyrion, Martin probably knows and told D&D what happens to them. 

Couldn't you say the same thing about Sansa and her siblings, though? It would be a tricky business to reveal Bran, Jon and Arya's fates without revealing Sansa's.

I don't doubt that D&D know Sansa's planned ultimate ASOIAF fate, but when D&D learned that fate is an interesting question. D&D have said that they decided when they were writing Season 2 (in 2011, I guess) to swap in Sansa for Jeyne and scrap her Vale storyline. Did they do that because they figured that no matter what happened to Sansa post-ADWD they could figure out later how to get her back on track with her book arc (a Robb's will situation), or did they do that because they already knew where Sansa was going to wind up and thought that swapping in Sansa for Jeyne could be reconciled with that endgame?

[nikma]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

or did they do that because they already knew where Sansa was going to wind up and thought that swapping in Sansa for Jeyne could be reconciled with that endgame?

I think this was the case. I think Sansa's endgame is being Lady of Winterfell, so moving her to the North earlier didn't seem like a big change for them and gave them  opportunity to have many meetings and reunions in S5 and S6, and it seems they always like that. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by nikma

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Couldn't you say the same thing about Sansa and her siblings, though? It would be a tricky business to reveal Bran, Jon and Arya's fates without revealing Sansa's.

You are right. D&D must know Sansa's fate.

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Couldn't you say the same thing about Sansa and her siblings, though? It would be a tricky business to reveal Bran, Jon and Arya's fates without revealing Sansa's.

I don't doubt that D&D know Sansa's planned ultimate ASOIAF fate, but when D&D learned that fate is an interesting question. D&D have said that they decided when they were writing Season 2 (in 2011, I guess) to swap in Sansa for Jeyne and scrap her Vale storyline. Did they do that because they figured that no matter what happened to Sansa post-ADWD they could figure out later how to get her back on track with her book arc (a Robb's will situation), or did they do that because they already knew where Sansa was going to wind up and thought that swapping in Sansa for Jeyne could be reconciled with that endgame?

Well apparently they didn't learn the full outline from GRRM until they had finished writing season 3 so....maybe not

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think the five main characters from Martin's outline will have the ending from the books: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, and Bran. I am not sure about Sansa. Since Jaime and Cersei's endings are closely connected to Tyrion, Martin probably knows and told D&D what happens to them. 

I do agree D&D aren't going to confirm either way. They aren't going to want to spoil anything for Martin. Besides the fans who don't like the ending won't believe them anyway. There are still people who think that they made up Jon's real name rather than getting that major plot point from Martin.

Too many people had their hearts set on Jaehaerys or Aemon or him not having a Targaryen name.

Aegon makes sense. The books heavily hint at it through Daenerys. Rhaegar definitely didn't name him but Lyanna probably did after hearing Aegon the Elder died.

[bubble sparkly]

Given Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar in the books, I always thought it was him who insisted that Jon's name should be Aegon:

Quote

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

The reference to ice and fire suggests it was Lyanna in the vision, and thus the baby was Jon not the 1st Aegon.  Personally, I think that Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy that he wanted to start the 3 heads of the dragon thing all over again with Lyanna since Elia couldn't have anymore children.  He probably told Lyanna they were calling the kid Aegon as soon as she announced her pregnancy.  Crazy and disrespectful? Sure.  But this is the guy who left behind his wife and children to run off with a teenager, so it seems perfectly in keeping with his other behaviour.

I wonder if we will get anymore Rhaegar and Lyanna info in s8, or if Bran will just repeat his "they loved each other and got married" spiel from the s7 voiceover?

Edited June 21, 2018 by bubble sparkly

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well apparently they didn't learn the full outline from GRRM until they had finished writing season 3 so....maybe not

D&D have known some things all along, such as who ends up on the Iron Throne. (I think they also knew about Jonerys early on as well.) It's possible that they have known Sansa's fate maybe not all along but well before the full outline rundown in 2013.

/Freefolk dug up this interview with GRRM from 2012. I had read the interview before but missed this bit about the Wars of the Roses:

Quote

 

You have said several times A Song of Ice and Fire is based, in part, on The Wars of the Roses, in which the Lancasters, whose symbol was a red rose, as the Lannisters, fought against the York family, with a white rose as its emblem, like the Starks. Can we expect a similar ending for your saga?

You cannot count on that. The Lancasters and Yorks fought themselves to extinction until the Tudors came in. But the Tudors were really a new dynasty; they weren’t Lancasters. So...

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

The reference to ice and fire suggests it was Lyanna in the vision, and thus the baby was Jon not the 1st Aegon.  

It wasn't. GRRM confirmed that it was Elia.

[GrailKing]

http://watchersonthewall.com/nikolaj-coster-waldau-game-of-thrones-season-8-weve-gone-all-in/#more-164433

[SeanC]

17 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think the five main characters from Martin's outline will have the ending from the books: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, and Bran. I am not sure about Sansa. Since Jaime and Cersei's endings are closely connected to Tyrion, Martin probably knows and told D&D what happens to them. 

GRRM has confirmed any number of times that he's known the endings for the Starks, Lannisters and Dany for a long time.  

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

For my money, anything involving the Starks, the Lannisters and Dany will be from the books, but for anything or anyone else, it will probably be from D&D.

I largely agree.  I’d also say that there are a select few supporting characters who are sufficiently important to one of the mains’ endgames to get an ending akin to the book.  Brienne is a possibility, for instance, since I expect she’ll have an important part in however things go for Jaime.

[nikma]

We know that the Hound's story is their creation. Bron as well I think. Tormund, Podrick, Edd, Grey Worm, Missandei, Qyburn, Gregor, Gendry, Jorah, maybe even Theon, Euron and Yara wll all have D&D's endgames. Beric is show only ofc. 

I think GRRM has an idea about Sam. Not sure about Davos and Melisandre.

 

I think Big 8 (Sansa , Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Daenerys and Jon) will have book endings.

 

From the past I could only see LF's and Roose's deaths as something from the books. And Hodor and Shireen. Maybe Walda.

 

But Martells, Tyrells, Freys, Tarlys, High Sparrow, Ramsay, Thorne, Mance, Meryn Trant, the Waif, Jojen,.... I think are D&D's creations.

Edited June 21, 2018 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

HBO pays D&D to adapt ASOIAF. GRRM told them the ending as he had it but for "a few secondary characters" IIRC. Based on what he considers "secondary characters", they might very well have been omitted from the show already.

The way they get to the endgame might diverge, and may diverge greatly, but the "characters that count", original POV char. and veteran/main GoT char. will get to the same point.

[nikma]

But those books don't exist. HBO wants a show that will be critically and commercially successful. Faithfulness to the future books is not their concern. I'm not saying that D&D don't want to be faithful, but I don't think GRRM gave them that much.

If he knew a lot, those books would have been finished already.

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

But those books don't exist. HBO wants a show that will be critically and commercially successful. Faithfulness to the future books is not their concern. I'm not saying that D&D don't want to be faithful, but I don't think GRRM gave them that much.

If he knew a lot, those books would have been finished already.

GRRM has himself said he knows the key points of the ending for characters, etc.  That isn't the issue with the writing, it's the mechanics of getting to the end.

[Eyes High]

From Maisie's stunt double's Instagram:

Doesn't necessarily mean that Maisie's filming for two more weeks, but it looks like her stunt double isn't done in Belfast quite yet.

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

From Maisie's stunt double's Instagram:

Doesn't necessarily mean that Maisie's filming for two more weeks, but it looks like her stunt double isn't done in Belfast quite yet.

Beat me by this much <------>

[nikma]

32 minutes ago, SeanC said:

GRRM has himself said he knows the key points of the ending for characters, etc.  That isn't the issue with the writing, it's the mechanics of getting to the end.

He obviously doesn't know enough. I'm not sure I trust anything he is saying. I think there were moments where he openly lied to the fans, like when he said that he expects 2-3 seasons from AFFC and ADWD, but he already saw outline for S5 and he knew that wasn't true.

I think he is lying sometimes to hide how little he is in control of his own story. 

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, nikma said:

He obviously doesn't know enough. 

Being able to write a multi-paragraph summary of the key points of the ending is not the same thing as being able to implement that whole story.

[nikma]

But from a lot of things in S6 and S7 it's clear that he didn't give them detailed outline because he has no idea what he is doing.

A lot of book fans think that D&D gave Stannis' storyline to Jon for example. If that's true it means GRRM gave them so little about Jon in TWOW that they decided to use storyline from ADWD. 

 

And what exactly is from the books in S7? LF's death maybe? Jon and Dany falling in love. What else? The Wall falling. That's it. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by nikma

[glowbug]

Just now, nikma said:

But from a lot of things in S6 and S7 it's clear that he didn't give them detailed outline because he has no idea what he is doing.

A lot of book fans think that D&D gave Stannis' storyline to Jon for example. If that's true it means GRRM gave them so little about Jon in TWOW that they decided to use storyline from ADWD. 

Not necessarily. Most book fans think Jon will be dead for a longer period of time in the books than he was in the show. He's likely to warg into ghost and spend some significant time there, and even if he doesn't warg into Ghost he'll still be dead. Since the show hasn't established Jon as a warg it wouldn't make sense for him to warg into Ghost. Also, it would require a lot of filming with the dire wolf, which is expensive, and not something D&D like to prioritize. Not to mention warging into Ghost wouldn't translate well to screen since the audience can't be inside a non-speaking character's head with a cheesy voiceover. GRRM can have characters drift in and out of the story easily, but it's much more difficult to do that with actors on a TV show. 

[nikma]

So Jon will be in Ghost the entire book?

 

If GRRM really did give D&D details what happens with him post-resurrection why they gave him Stannis' storyline? If they did that, we don't know.

 

Nothing in S6 and S7 indicated that GRRM gave them a lot. Theon will be in Daenerys' service in the books? Sam will cure Jorah? Hound will become part of BwB? I don't think so.

Edited June 21, 2018 by nikma

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

HBO pays D&D to adapt ASOIAF. GRRM told them the ending as he had it but for "a few secondary characters" IIRC. Based on what he considers "secondary characters", they might very well have been omitted from the show already.

The way they get to the endgame might diverge, and may diverge greatly, but the "characters that count", original POV char. and veteran/main GoT char. will get to the same point.

Not exactly true. GRRM knows the endings for the Starks+ Tyrion + Daenerys but everyone else is on the platter for vague endings or unknown endings.

I remember GRRM mentioning in a post that he had just figured out how a major character was going to die even though he knew that character would die from the beginning.

Or like how he and D & D keep saying that GRRM likes to figure out things as he writes and he has broad points that he wants to hit but doesn't always.

Then account for the fact that D & D can change plot points of character goals to suit their needs because it either makes the story faster, they think it's an improvement or they think this'll appeal more to the audience. Or because they're trying to fill in holes in the future story that GRRM hasn't come up with yet.

So like I could see a scenario where Jaime kills Cersei in the books but D & D decide that plot point is better served with Arya doing it.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

A lot of book fans think that D&D gave Stannis' storyline to Jon for example. If that's true it means GRRM gave them so little about Jon in TWOW that they decided to use storyline from ADWD. 

No, not necessarily.  It could also mean that the writers wanted to condense the plots (indeed, they’ve said as much) and wanted Jon and Sansa leading the fight against the Boltons to prioritize main characters.

But regardless, what people are talking about here is the basics of the characters’ endings, not how they get there (that will be mostly D&D).

[nikma]

I agree. D&D will do what they think is the best for the show. They already killed big characters in a way that it won't happen in the books. I don't think they care about future books that much.

 

If they feel Sansa being Lady of Winterfell is better ending than what GRRM told them, they will do it. 

 

I mean a lot of fans think that Cersei on the Iron Throne won't happen in the books and it's a major part of the show.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

No, not necessarily.  It could also mean that the writers wanted to condense the plots (indeed, they’ve said as much) and wanted Jon and Sansa leading the fight against the Boltons to prioritize main characters.

But regardless, what people are talking about here is the basics of the characters’ endings, not how they get there (that will be mostly D&D).

But Sansa and Jon should have their major storylines in TWOW. If D&D can just cut that and give them Stannis' storyline, it means that they either don't like how GRRM wants to make Jon KITN in the books or (which is far more likely) GRRM himself doesn't know, so D&D decided to use ADWD as inspiration.

 

I think the only thing GRRM really gave them is idea where these characters will end up and nothing else. He doesn't know the rest.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I remember GRRM mentioning in a post that he had just figured out how a major character was going to die even though he knew that character would die from the beginning.

Not sure he said major character, but he did say "SHE", he was outside looking in a window or at it, or in a restaurant and said I just decided how she's going to die.

Not quoting though since my memory is not 100 % sure.  

ETA: I remember because I posed the question was he thinking Sansa ?

Edited June 22, 2018 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

32 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Not sure he said major character, but he did say "SHE", he was outside looking in a window or at it, or in a restaurant and said I just decided how she's going to die.

Not quoting though since my memory is not 100 % sure.  

ETA: I remember because I posed the question was he thinking Sansa ?

 

I vaguely recall that GRRM’s comments were incorrectly translated from German and that the correct translation indicated the character he was referencing could be male or female. I do specifically recall that there was no mention of this being a major character, though. With that said, even assuming GRRM did call this character a “major” character, that wouldn’t mean much, since in his mind even minor characters like Myrcella and Willas are important characters. 

I readily believe that there are hundreds of ASOIAF characters of whose ultimate fates GRRM hasn’t the faintest idea. I’m not even certain he knows what he’s going to do with secondary characters like the Hound. For the Starks + Dany + Lannister siblings, though, I’m certain he has known their fates for a very long time and has communicated that information to D&D...and let’s be honest, does anyone really care all that much about what happens to anyone outside that group?

Edited June 22, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:01 AM, nikma said:

Why it's sad? I mean they didn't steal anything. They worked hard for more than 10 years on the unfinished unadaptable story and made the biggest TV show on the world that broke many records.

 

Well, its sad for me as someone who read the books long before the show ever started.  I want to know how many of the book plots are resolved but have to settle for LF winning the battle of Winterfell. It's now D&D's story that gets to the ending.

It's surely sad for GRRM who started this story in 1996 and created these characters that millions of fans are interested in so much that we discuss them and dissect the story on forums like this. This story is now no longer his, it's rightfully David and Dan's.

And of course D&D deserve the credit. I can't even blame them for focusing on wight polar bears and spectacle instead of plot because they no longer have any material to adapt and no information on how to get to the ending. They have to take short cuts and do their own thing for a resolution.

15 hours ago, nikma said:

He obviously doesn't know enough. I'm not sure I trust anything he is saying. I think there were moments where he openly lied to the fans, like when he said that he expects 2-3 seasons from AFFC and ADWD, but he already saw outline for S5 and he knew that wasn't true.

I think he is lying sometimes to hide how little he is in control of his own story. 

And with this, I agree. I hesitate to take anything GRRM says at face value anymore. He's someone who does not know how to end a story he started 22 years ago. He knows where the characters end up, but has no outline because he's a 'gardener' and hence his story keeps changing - how in the hell can he get to his ending with this nonsense?

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I readily believe that there are hundreds of ASOIAF characters of whose ultimate fates GRRM hasn’t the faintest idea. I’m not even certain he knows what he’s going to do with secondary characters like the Hound. For the Starks + Dany + Lannister siblings, though, I’m certain he has known their fates for a very long time and has communicated that information to D&D...and let’s be honest, does anyone really care all that much about what happens to anyone outside that group?

 

And this is what I am talking about. The Hound is an important secondary character in Sansa's story. It's the literal re-telling of the Beauty and the Beast in asoiaf. Whatever GRRM decides to do with the Hound, would not Sansa's story change based on that? So how is her end-game fixed? If GRRM decides to bring him back to give her a happy ending or if he is there to allow her to make a choice between love and duty or if he is there to save her life - where her story ends up remains fluid because GRRM has still not decided on a key character in her story. Similarly the lack of the 5 year gap, Dany still stuck in Essos, introducing new characters with their own narratives that can influence the plots of main characters - I feel like all this can change his intended ending in big ways.

So at this point, I think GRRM has an idea about where he wants the characters to end up. But he can never get there. If he ever does finish the books, I am pretty sure his ending will be different to what he told David and Dan before season 3.

On 6/20/2018 at 9:35 PM, SimoneS said:

We are getting the same endings for the main characters that GRRM told them about, it is the ones that he didn't tell them about that will be different. I think that is why D&D didn't want to hear the actor's opinions. They couldn't change anything. The story ends, how GRRM told them it ends.

I interpreted it differently. When they had the books to go off on, actors would often approach D&D about how their characters did things differently in the books etc. I get the feeling that NCW had suggestions because Jaime's story is different in the books and from interviews it seems like NCW was not a fan of Jaime continuing to stick with Cersei.  Now, there are no more books and it's D&D story - so shut up and do what you are told.

And regarding endings, I think they have pretty much stated that some of the stuff that GRRM told them will happen and some will not because the show has diverged from the books. 

I would say that Jon, Dany and Tyrion's stories have stayed the course so far on the show - we know that Jon will get resurrected and become KITN. At some point, I am sure he is meeting Dany. Tyrion was also headed for Dany in ADwD and Dany was always set to invade Westeros. R+L = J is important and Dany has dragons to defeat the Others. It's all pretty predictable apart from whether they live or die at the end.

Jaime has finally left Cersei and will meet up with Brienne, redemption and his book plot.

I am less sure of the Starks since D&D have pretty much ignored all the book plots about the North/Winterfell in favor of their Sansa is the best thing since sliced bread narrative. Maybe that's GRRM's story as well. Or maybe they will course correct next season.

As per this interview D&D gave last year before season 7:

Quote

How long does the writing process usually take?

WEISS: It’s hard to say with this one especially, because so much of the endgame is stuff that we’ve been discussing for at least four or five years, if not longer. So a lot of the pieces have been put on the board years ago. You could go back to season 2 and some of these ideas started to come out.

Did you know in season 2 where the story was going to end up?

WEISS: When did we meet with George [series author R.R. Martin] in Santa Fe?

BENIOFF: It was before season 3 wasn’t it?

WEISS: It was when we were getting the track that the Hold Steady did, their studio version of “The Bear and the Maiden Fair.” It was between season 2 and season 3.

BENIOFF: That’s when we started talking to George and he was giving us a sense of things he was working on that were to come, that’s when he told us about the Hodor backstory, and endgame stuff. He had some great stuff that he could share with us, like the Hodor thing, but a lot of it, he wasn’t sure yet, because he was writing, and he discovers things by writing.

WEISS: There were some details that were added later — but pretty much the actual endgame, the main climactic moments, we had in mind then. We had ninety percent of this crucial chunk of the story for the final season, and we were mainly talking to George to see how our notion of where things ended up jibed with his notion.

To what degree do you feel it needs to be perfectly congruent with the vision of the endgame of the novels that Martin presented to you?

BENIOFF: It’s already too late for that. We’re already well past the point of it jibing 100 percent.  But the good thing about us diverging at this point is that George’s books will still be a surprise for readers who have seen the show. Certain things that we learned from George way back in that meeting in Santa Fe are going to happen on the show, but certain things won’t. And there’s certain things where George didn’t know what was going to happen, so we’re going to find them out for the first time too, along with millions of readers when we read those books.

http://time.com/4791793/game-of-thrones-season-7-david-benioff-d-b-weiss/

I think we may get a hint of what will be different from interviews David and Dan or GRRM give in the aftermath of season 8. D&D have not been shy in discussing specific book adaptations and so we may come to know what it is they have taken from GRRM and what they have not.

Edited June 22, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

Iain Glen in 2015:

Quote

 

But beyond that, the writers themselves, David and Dan, they didn’t particularly want actors coming to the scripts from the book, always suggesting what the book did and how it was different – I could see the glazed look in their eyes when that happened.”

He concluded: “They were quite happy for us to move forward and treat them as screenplays with no history, so that’s the reason why I only ever read the first novel.”

 

Agin, I don't think that D&D care about the future books that much. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It's the literal re-telling of the Beauty and the Beast in asoiaf.

No, the Beauty and the Beast story in ASOIAF would be Brienne/Jaime, as GRRM has said. 

Quote

Whatever GRRM decides to do with the Hound, would not Sansa's story change based on that? 

If GRRM knows Sansa's endgame but doesn't know the Hound's, the sensible and in my opinion obvious conclusion is that one has nothing to do with the other.

Quote

So how is her end-game fixed? If GRRM decides to bring him back to give her a happy ending or if he is there to allow her to make a choice between love and duty or if he is there to save her life - where her story ends up remains fluid because GRRM has still not decided on a key character in her story.

Again, if the Hound isn't part of her endgame as related to D&D, he can't be all that important to her story, can he?

GRRM warned us in that 2012 interview discussed upthread that ships would be sunk:

Quote

Of course I will disappoint some of my fans because they are making theories about who will finally take the throne: who would live, who would die… and they even imagine romantic pairings. 

He didn't explicitly mention SanSan, but he might as well have.

If whatever Sansa's endgame is, she doesn't end up with the Hound, that could explain why D&D paid so little attention to SanSan in the show. If she was never going to wind up with him, either because she's going to die, end up alone, or marry someone else, and considering that ultimately Sandor is a secondary character at best, why bother getting the audience invested in that ship?

Edited June 22, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Iain Glen in 2015:

Agin, I don't think that D&D care about the future books that much. 

These two are awful. When Ian McElhinney wrote them a letter explaining why Barristan should not be killed off, they said that they wanted to kill him off even more after that. 

I get that they ran out of source material and had to make up shit along the way, but I just find them really obnoxious.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

No, the Beauty and the Beast story in ASOIAF would be Brienne/Jaime, as GRRM has said.

And as Gwendoline Christie clearly explains there, Jaime/Brienne is the trope inversion of BATB which of course the author famous for trope inversions is going to bring up and talk about. Meanwhile Sansa/Hound is the literal telling of BATB.  Why would GRRM say he was writing his trope filled BATB with SanSan?  There's a reason pretty much everyone compares SanSan to BATB.  The ugly Hound who abuses innocent, pure, virginal Sansa and gets reformed by her purity while she falls in love with him is pretty much what BATB is. Why do you think it's not a BATB retelling?

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If GRRM knows Sansa's endgame but doesn't know the Hound's, the sensible and in my opinion obvious conclusion is that one has nothing to do with the other.

 

Then why bring him back? His story is over in the books. What relevance can bringing him back have if his character has nothing to do with Sansa's endgame? I think we can all agree that he was and continues to be a big part of Sansa's story considering she still misses him, keeps his cloak around and is imagining kisses with him.  If the Hound has nothing to do with her, why can't she just forget about him like she forgets Jon, Jeyne, Lysa etc. Sansa is so very good at forgetting in the books. So why does GRRM keep bringing him up in her POV chapters and at the same remain undecided about the character himself. Looks like he is not yet decided on where to take the character.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If whatever Sansa's endgame is, she doesn't end up with the Hound, that could explain why D&D paid so little attention to SanSan in the show. If she was never going to wind up with him, either because she's going to die, end up alone, or marry someone else, and considering that ultimately Sandor is a secondary character at best, why bother getting the audience invested in that ship?

 

But they apparently only knew about character endgames after season 2. After Sandor left KL and Sansa. You talk about how very little SanSan was on the show when the Hound was in KL. How could D&D know that SanSan was unimportant if GRRM only told them Sansa's endgame after the season was filmed? Plus, GRRM kept in the infamous SanSan scene in Blackwater. After this, in the books the Hound goes off with Arya and dies. Sansa thinks of him in her POV like Jon thinks of Arya in his POV. We don't see either of this on the show.

Regarding changing Sansa's story, they said this:

Quote

And it’s because of Turner’s strength, Benioff continued, that it made sense to give Sansa a dramatic storyline this season and to use Ramsay’s engagement for that very purpose. In fact, the showrunners first thought about putting Sansa and Ramsay together back when they were writing season 2. “We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.” 

http://ew.com/article/2015/04/26/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview/

So according to the Ds, after season one - before they knew anything about Sansa's endgame - they randomly decided to put Sansa in WF with Ramsay. Because apparently they were impressed by Sophie's acting skills in the first season and wanted Sansa to have a more important role than she has in the books. Not caring whether that would affect Sansa's endgame or not.

It seems to me that the show has not put much effort into any of Sansa's storylines right from the beginning - whether it be the casting of the Hound, SanSan, Sansa being an idiot in KL, deciding to give Sansa, Jeyne Poole's rape plot.  This is in contrast to how Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran's stories on the show remain unchanged from their book plots.

Of course, after the shit ton of criticism the show got for Sansa's rape, things quickly changed. D&D had to now justify that plot and Sansa suddenly becomes a political mastermind, brilliant diplomat, best ruler who knows how to make armor - all because she spend season 5 with Ramsay. It does not matter if Theon's entire season 3 plot was about getting gruesomely tortured by Ramsay - there's no payoff for that. It's the Sansa show in the North now.

Quote

Game of Thrones producers heard the outcry. Really, they did. Director Jeremy Podeswa, who is helming the first two episode of season six, said creators Dan Weiss and David Benioff "were responsive to the discussion" that ensued after Sansa (Sophie Turner) was brutally raped on her wedding night and "a couple of things changed as a result" of the ongoing discussions.

https://www.eonline.com/news/725623/game-of-thrones-creators-changed-a-couple-of-things-after-sansa-stark-rape-outcry

So in my opinion, it looks like Sansa was not all that important of a character when the show started out. They cast a 40 year old Rory to play the Hound. Was it that hard to get a tall guy in his twenties for the part? Not a lot of focus on SanSan - which could have been due to Sophie's young age or because they did not really care about this plot. Then they decide to replace Jeyne with Sansa to give the actress something to do - deciding to change her story even before knowing what her book endgame is. Then they decided to continue on with that plot after having their 'endgame stuff' discussion with GRRM.

So then taking this answer into consideration:

Quote

To what degree do you feel it needs to be perfectly congruent with the vision of the endgame of the novels that Martin presented to you?

BENIOFF: It’s already too late for that. We’re already well past the point of it jibing 100 percent.  But the good thing about us diverging at this point is that George’s books will still be a surprise for readers who have seen the show. Certain things that we learned from George way back in that meeting in Santa Fe are going to happen on the show, but certain things won’t. And there’s certain things where George didn’t know what was going to happen, so we’re going to find them out for the first time too, along with millions of readers when we read those books.

The only plot/story that has majorly diverged from the books is the whole Sansa in the North plot. Jon, Dany and Tyrion have followed their book plots and seem to be logically continuing their plots. Arya and Bran have also stuck to their book plots till they got to WF and got downgraded.  So if divergences in plot are affecting anyone's endgame on the show, it would have to be that of the Starks. I do think Jaime and Cersei are doomed but it could be that Cersei meets her end a lot sooner in the books and there's another human endgame villain - Euron is much more fearsome in the books. GRRM has hinted at LF and Vary clashing again, so I think their stories are going to go differently and maybe the way they meet their deaths.

And I am pretty certain that when they talk about certain things not happening in the endgame like in the books, they are talking about the main characters. Not Bronn and Tormund.

Edited June 22, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

And as Gwendoline Christie clearly explains there, Jaime/Brienne is the trope inversion of BATB which of course the author famous for trope inversions is going to bring up and talk about. 

Whatever GRRM may or may not intend with SanSan, the indisputable fact is that there's only one GRRM-acknowledged BATB trope iteration in ASOIAF, and it ain't SanSan.

Quote

His story is over in the books. What relevance can bringing him back have if his character has nothing to do with Sansa's endgame?

CLEGANEBOWL. (Get hype.) 

Quote

But they apparently only knew about character endgames after season 2.

They've known all along who ends up on the Iron Throne, so assuming the answer isn't "no one," they've known some character endgames from the beginning. If Sansa ends up on the throne (which I doubt, but humour me), they would have known her endgame all along, and they also would have known that she doesn't end up with Sandor.

More to the point, while D&D only got the full rundown in 2013, they've been getting information from GRRM all along. It's possible that GRRM told them Sansa's fate well in advance of 2013.

Quote

So according to the Ds, after season one - before they knew anything about Sansa's endgame - they randomly decided to put Sansa in WF with Ramsay. Because apparently they were impressed by Sophie's acting skills in the first season and wanted Sansa to have a dramatic storyline. Not caring whether that would affect Sansa's endgame or not.

As if they would give anything away in an interview about Sansa's endgame as a rationale for making the change.

ETA:

GOT folks are descending on Scotland for Kit's wedding. Emilia (showing an impressive amount of brown hair regrowth) has been snapped, as has Joe Dempsie. Maisie and Sophie are flying in. Apparently, D&D took a flight with Peter from Belfast, so maybe Peter was still shooting this week...? Alfie left Prague, so he may be headed to Scotland as well.

A_red_priestess got some great pics and video of the KL exterior set dome on fire. There was an intact dome and a burnt-out dome, but we never saw the dome actually burning.

I guess the nice new repainted KL facade set is part of this sequence...?

And in other news, the Riverrun set is being dismantled. Is this confirmation that we'll see Riverrun in S8 after all...?

Edited June 22, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Whatever GRRM may or may not intend with SanSan, the indisputable fact is that there's only one GRRM-acknowledged BATB trope iteration in ASOIAF, and it ain't SanSan.

So you don't think SanSan has any similarities at all to BATB? And any similarities and trope iterations only exist in the books if acknowledged by GRRM?

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They've known all along who ends up on the Iron Throne, so assuming the answer isn't "no one," they've known some character endgames from the beginning. If Sansa ends up on the throne (which I doubt, but humour me), they would have known her endgame all along, and they also would have known that she doesn't end up with Sandor.

More to the point, while D&D only got the full rundown in 2013, they've been getting information from GRRM all along. It's possible that GRRM told them Sansa's fate well in advance of 2013.

Wait, so GRRM told them who ends up on the Iron Throne in the very beginning? 

I very much doubt that they knew character endgames from the very beginning. When did they say this?  I must have missed it. I thought that was the point of the big meeting with GRRM after season 2 when they knew that their show was now popular, getting awards and not going to get cancelled - time to plot out their stories and head towards endgames.

But GRRM told them Sansa's endgame right off the bat? Including that she sits on the Iron Throne and does not get together with the Hound and after hearing all this D&D decided that having Ramsay brutalize Sansa instead of a secondary character like Jeyne was the best way to proceed with her story?  Hmm.

Regarding filming spoilers, looks like Peter was pretty much the only actor filming in Belfast with David and Dan. And KL looks to be burning. So Tyrion in some KL action in episode 6?

Edited June 22, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So you don't think SanSan has any similarities at all to BATB? And any similarities and trope iterations only exist in the books if acknowledged by GRRM?

My point was is that ASOIAF already has a BATB trope iteration by GRRM and it isn't SanSan. If you'd think he'd knowingly go to the same well twice in ASOIAF, that's fine, but I'd personally be surprised.

Quote

Wait, so GRRM told them who ends up on the Iron Throne in the very beginning?

I believe so. I think there was an interview they did after S1 where they confirmed that they knew.

Quote

I thought that was the point of the big meeting with GRRM after season 2 when they knew that their show was now popular, getting awards and not going to get cancelled - time to plot out their stories and head towards endgames.

Sure, but we know that GRRM has been feeding them info all along, and frankly if he's sufficiently loose-lipped to casually inform an episode director that Jon and Dany and their meeting are the whole point of the series, he likely gave D&D a good deal more in the way of substantial information before the 2013 meeting.

Quote

But GRRM told them Sansa's endgame right off the bat? Including that she sits on the Iron Throne and does not get together with the Hound and after hearing all this D&D decided that having Ramsay brutalize Sansa instead of a secondary character like Jeyne was the best way to proceed with her story? 

We don't know what D&D knew about Sansa's endgame when they decided to do the Jeyne/Sansa swap. I think, however, it's unlikely they decided to do it without some information as to Sansa's ultimate fate, since otherwise scrapping her Vale arc would be a hell of a risk. 

Quote

Regarding filming spoilers, looks like Peter was pretty much the only actor filming in Belfast with David and Dan. And KL looks to be burning. So Tyrion in some KL action in episode 6?

Rory and Thor could still be there, but yes. Kit and Emilia were there earlier this week for certain, but they had already left by today (Kit was in London on Wednesday, Emilia flew in to Aberdeen from Heathrow). Maisie and Sophie are apparently flying in together, so Maisie probably wasn't filming today, either. Not sure about Liam. 

I wonder if the fact that Emilia has been letting her roots grow in means that she's done with filming proper and all that's left is ADR. It explains why she has been wearing all those hats lately, though.

New interview with NCW. Interesting quote here, about whether he thinks the fans will be happy with the ending:

Quote

I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion. I was very happy when I read the script, so I thought Dan Weiss and David Benioff they just couldn't have done a better job, so...I can tell you we've done the best we can.

Uh...

Am I the only one tempted to go back and read the LOST and BSG cast interviews about those shows' finales before they aired for comparison? Because this is the vibe that I'm getting.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Eyes High

[Happy Harpy]

41 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Am I the only one tempted to go back and read the LOST and BSG cast interviews about those shows' finales before they aired for comparison? Because this is the vibe that I'm getting.

I dropped Lost after S1 (bar a couple of S3 or S4 episodes) and I thought it had a finale fitting the very reasons why I dropped it as well as the reasons why I considered briefly to watch it again (a certain female character + her pairing). I know the BSG finale discouraged me to watch it beyond S1 but maybe I would have felt the same about it if I had watched longer.

I have the feeling that the cast is serving the same discourse as casts do for every show's finale season -when they know it's the finale season. As past interviews of past off-seasons prove, actors often don't have the same perspective as viewers + they have to hype.

I don't care about an ending that's smart or original or subversive. I want an ending that makes sense, B+M=E.

Looking at this thread, we need spoilers. Well, I need spoilers. I really feel like throttling people who are going to spoiler sites to say "meh, I'm OK without" LOL. Nope, I don't want to spend another almost full year gnawing on crumbs and rehashing the same questions. I'm now looking forward to every piece of first footage being dissected to no end.

[nikma]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

These two are awful. When Ian McElhinney wrote them a letter explaining why Barristan should not be killed off, they said that they wanted to kill him off even more after that. 

But imgine if every actor did that? 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Of course, after the shit ton of criticism the show got for Sansa's rape, things quickly changed. D&D had to now justify that plot and Sansa suddenly becomes a political mastermind, brilliant diplomat, best ruler who knows how to make armor - all because she spend season 5 with Ramsay. It does not matter if Theon's entire season 3 plot was about getting gruesomely tortured by Ramsay - there's no payoff for that. It's the Sansa show in the North now.

Outline for S6 was written before S5 even aired, So that wasn't reaction on their part.  Every character in S5 was at their lowest point and then they were "reborn" in S6. That was an idea when they wrote S5, it had nothing to do with criticism from vocal minority. 

[nikma]

I'm still not geting "Targaeryan restoration" vibes from the interviews.

[GrailKing]